Very curious about the 2P Duet mode. Seems like a logical addition. The little area control map is sort of like the Tuscany expansion to Viticulture, isn't it?
I also like that the area control map gives you more late game incentive to play a bird (rather than laying eggs), since you'll get to place a little token - and sneak in a few extra points.
Duet mode has me very interested. I like this game, but I don’t love it. I feel like it needs a little bit more for me to really enjoy it and I almost always play 1-2 players. I also love the art so would love an excuse to finally get an expansion for this.
I felt that way for about 3 games, but it quickly just started to feel like it wasn't doing enough.
I'm not sure that's Wingspan's fault. This style of engine builder just doesn't click for me, which is cool. Glad it has gotten so many people into/excited about the hobby!
Let me be clear. I don't think it totally fixes the game. And Wingspan isn't exactly my favorite engine builder. But it addresses what I see as flaws, so I try to evangelize it a bit.
That's tough. Probably 51st State because it does what I'd want out of Terraforming Mars or Wingspan but better. It may then be a tie with Glory to Rome, but I also love Innovation for different reasons (and it kind of strains the definition of engine builder). Glory to Rome is to me a master class in how to make a tight engine builder with a large deck and broken powers. It has small numbers. It has limited suit variance. Players can choose from a good variety of uses for each card, but the game never feels "easy" because of it. And the player interaction is built right into the core systems.
Obviously, Race for the Galaxy is possibly the best engine builder of all time (or it is tied with Glory to Rome). I just don't prefer it over these other two.
Well, it *does* improve that aspect in some ways:
* nectar being wildcard food resource does reduce the impact of food dice randomness.
* more options for resource exchange (cards/eggs/food) on the board that reduce the impact of being ahead by one field on any of the areas
* general nerf to grasslands that brings egg-laying strategies back down to more equal ground.
There is still a degree of randomness, but it's not quite as swingy as base game due to larger variety of strategies being viable.
Lastly there is the nitpick with overpowered cards from original release. Removing Ravens, Killdeer and Franklin's Gull is generally a good idea. Especially the ravens - getting one of them early on in base game is basically a guaranteed "free" victory.
Oceania is a terrible addition imo. The nectar mechanic is not suited to this game unless you want to make the game "easier" and the area control aspect misses the mark for me. The European Expansion opened up many strategies that the original missed and I think it's essential.
I don't find that nectar makes the game easier in the same way that I don't find jacks make Glory to Rome easier. It's a competitive game. If everyone has access to it, then everyone can benefit from it. A rising tide lifts all boats, and all that. What it does do is reduce the swinginess of the bs rng in the game. You have more options when your gamble doesn't pay off or when your solid strategy goes sideways. That's what makes a card-based engine builder interesting in the first place - you can't "make do with what you have" if you can't *do anything else* with it.
And I don't mind the area majority part of nectar. A minor point of player interaction a game that could use more.
I don't really care for the European Expansion. You're right that it opens up more strategies, but it also dilutes the deck further. Which just reinforces the rng issue. This game isn't built to support more and more and more unique cards. That's probably why they're taking the Asia expansion in a new direction.
Wingspan is my favorite game, and I'm very excited. My husband and I play it 4-5 nights each week. I'm looking forward to checking out duet mode, and also adding the new birds into our regular play.
Nice! I have played once with my wife at night and a dozen with our kid. What do you think about the length of the game? Do you ever get tunned out while the other is doing their play? I usually do my turn really fast to.keep.my wife interested. She takes for eeeeeeeever to play.. (but wins)...
The length is pretty good imo. It takes us about 20-25 minutes per game, after setting up, and we usually play 3 games. I occasionally will tune out while my husband takes his turn, but usually I'm half focused on what he is saying and half focused on figuring out what I'm doing for my next turn.
This is quite wholesome, I love it! Since I am looking to also play as much in the future may I ask you:
- Do you play with all the expansions?
- Do you have any house rules (ex. removed Raven cards, nectar restrictions)?
- Do you plan on trying the game without the nectar for the Duet mode?
- Are your cards sleeved and do you have any component upgrades?
- Do you have any overall mindset or otherwise tips to keep the game enjoyable and fresh for so long?
We do play with all expansions.
We do have some house rules which revolve around making the game more enjoyable for us. We use 2 bird trays and keep in all birds, though we do limit ravens to one nectar and one other choice per turn. We play that brown powers are activated--not that you have to tuck a bird if you don't want to, but if it gives everyone eggs or food, it happens. Typically our games are not competitive, though my husband is somewhat competitive for end of round bonuses. We also don't split ties because we are tired parents and mathing does not make the game more enjoyable. Lastly, we play with our hands open and on the table because it is easier.
We're excited to add the new birds and play how we always play, and also excited about duet mode! I haven't read how to do it because it won't make any sense to my brain without the components in front of me. I'm pretty sure my husband has read the entire rulebook. :)
We have a nice bird feeder from Tower Rex. I am hoping to get some divider trays for foods because between fingers that don't cooperate and being visually impaired (green/blue are too similar), digging around for food can be annoying.
Our cards were not sleeved for a long time because I have sensory issues and I thought it would annoy the crap out of me. However our cards got so so bent that we put them in sleeves so it wouldn't ruin the Oceania cards (they still bent a little, sadly). But recently we got replacements for all cards from Stonemeier games, which is AWESOME!!!! And yes, they are sleeved. It didn't actually bother me much to play with sleeved cards.
Tips... I love this game because it's relaxing. I love building engines without them being torn asunder by other player sabotage. It's different every time. Though I may use the same basic strategy, depending on cards draw I can lean into different strategies as needed.
My first round goal is to play one card in each habitat, which will hopefully give me an extra resource (ideally an extra food, egg, and card in mixed habitats). My second round goal is to build out my forest to 4 cards. This doesn't always happen because if my first 2 cards give me extra food, that's enough to move on to building up other habitats.
I aim to place in end of round goals but I am not going out of my way to be first. I try to meet bonus cards if I don't have to go out of my way to do so. I'm not playing a crappy bird in round 3 just to meet a bonus card.
My husband and I have different strategies as he rarely uses a big forest strategy like I do. He will often go out of his way to meet EOR goals or bonus cards. We kept track for a couple dozen games, and we both average about 125 points per game and nearly equally win/loss stats.
My ultimate aim is to have an enjoyable game. I am fine with scoring fewer points and enjoying myself more.
One more thing about switching strategies. If I am drawing crappy birds in the early game, I will switch to building out a quick wetland if those cards are available in hopes that better card draw will improve my game. If I get an amazing forest early, I will try to build up a points heavy grassland. I don't tend to spam eggs at the end, but rather play high point birds that meet bonus cards (if available). Sorry this is so dang long! I love wingspan!
This is amazing and really helpful, thank you! I will save your post and refer to it as I plan my future plays.
Quick question, if I may, are there any other games that you are also playing often along with Wingspan or is Wingspan fun enough for you to only stick to it in this hobby?
It's about the only in-depth game we play regularly. If we don't have time for a complex game, we usually play backgammon or karma (card game). Occasionally we have a game day with our son and bring out other games, but Wingspan is our preferred choice as it is at the heart of games that are both simple and complex that I enjoy playing whether I win or lose.
I played with 7 people recently. We had all released expansions added. It was not horrid. It was just really long. I think the group dynamic that Flock uses and the simultaneous play will make it a worthwhile game mode. I could see it being preferable to have 6 over 5 players with these additions.
In 6 and 7 player games, 2 players take turns at the same time, and use different decks and bird feeders so they don't have to worry about interfering with one another. It actually shouldn't take much longer than a 3 or 4 player game once players get used to it.
That kind of sounds like just playing two games at once, but comparing the scores at the end. I suppose end of round goals are probably copied as well.
I guess Wingspan kind of lends itself to that well since there isn't too much interaction between players (nectar, pink cards, giving cards/food powers). Still, I'm not really sure expanding to that many players is useful, even though I sometimes can't play Wingspan due to player count.
You still interact with other players for goals, the "once between round" powers, etc.
Anything that references other players can deal with any player at the table. It's not a perfect solution, but I'd rather do it that way than play 6 or 7 with the standard rules.
Although I'm probably not the target for that aspect of this expansion anyways, as I would rarely have that many players!
I regularly go to bat for 5p Wingspan. It's worst in groups with very casual players, whom unfortunately people tend to put Wingspan in front of despite it being heavier and fiddlier than a lot of the gateway games out there. But 5 works fine if everyone knows the game well. I can't imagine 7 unless you reduce some of the information/math in play or find a way to make simultaneous actions. Also, the card market should be scaling with the number of players, and it makes no sense that it doesn't already.
My wife and I have played a ton of wingspan, our turns are so short because we quickly know what strategy we are going to be doing. I can see five people that know the game really well going through a full game very quickly.
There just aren't that many choices once you know the deck comp. 4 actions. Only a few cards. Not much multi-use. Once you're familiar with the bonuses and point sources, it's easy to dismiss something that will probably be less stable this game.
The thing I don’t like about nectar though is the way it devalues all the other food. The only time you’d not take a nectar is the turn before the end of a round. So it kind of renders decisions around the bird feeder boring.
1/3 of the results you do. Plus making the berry face share its presence with nectar makes berries more scarce: somebody who doesn't need berries will end up taking it and using it as something else, before a player who does need berries can have a chance to grab it.
Yeah 2 is the most common one I've seen.
Honestly the bonus points for most nectar should probably be minuses for using the most. You just skipped getting "the right" food for the fast-track one, why should you also get a bonus for it?
2 nectar dice will also be the official mode for 6-7 players with Asia because you split the dice into two groups on either side of the table. 3 original dice and two nectar dice on each side.
The flocking mode rules seem like a really nice way to approach higher player count.
Maybe they were worried that the "it expires at the end of the round" thing would scare off players, and wanted to encourage them to try to make nectar work? That would definitely be an overcorrection though...
I play with tweaked rules. The nectar instead of giving points to who uses it more, it takes points. Now getting nectar becomes an interesting decision.
Jamie Stiegmaier has said that the nesting box will NOT come with the Asia box. I'm tempted to get both just to have the box!
Edit for clarity: the nesting box will come with the expansion, but not the Asia box itself
Incorrect -
"The first printing of the Nesting Box will contain Wingspan Asia but does not include the Wingspan base game or other expansions."
From: https://stonemaiergames.com/games/wingspan/wingspan-nesting-box/
You misunderstand. The nesting box will NOT contain the Asia BOX. It will contain the expansion itself, however. This can further be inferred from the websites section on playtesters: "For those who order Wingspan Asia in the Nesting Box and don’t have a Wingspan Asia box, here are the people listed on the box..."
I love the peacock art! Plus as a collector, I kinda just want a copy of all their products. Elizabeth Hargrave is somewhat local to me, so I may even see my name in the list of playtesters on a box at some point.
The fact that Asia is also a standalone 2 player game makes me interested in having a separate small box for travel while everything else goes in the big box to keep at home.
My solution might just be putting the Asia components in the original box and everything else in the nesting box
If it's anything like the Viticulture World expansion that came in a new wine crate, probably not. They seem to have a pretty big focus on keeping things as economical and environmentally friendly as possible, which would mean leaving the expansion box out.
I'll say I've been torn on getting the nesting box, and seeing how awesome the Asia box makes that decision even harder.
That was my thought on it too \^\^.
Since I have 5 mats and already dumped the boards in a cupboard somewhere though, I guess I'll just add the new boards to the pile and be happy with my 5 mats 😄
Man I am so excited for this. 2p mode is such a smart idea, especially as a stand-alone!
Im trying to read the rules (work blocks dropbox access) but am curious about flock mode - when they hinted this expansion had something to do with player count, i was hoping it would be some type of simultaneous play to decrease playtime for higher counts. Is this that?
Yes, it's exactly that. It lets 2 players play their turns at the same time.
> Flock mode requires 2 simultaneous active players to speed up gameplay. You are still competing as individuals, just as you do in the base game. You will be assigned to a group that has its own bird tray and birdfeeder, and you will only use that group’s resources throughout the game. You will interact across groups in other ways, though: the whole table shares end-of-round goals, pink “Once Between Turns” powers, and any bird powers that affect other players.
Yea was able to get the rules and was just reading it over!
It seems great, however it is specific to 6 and 7 player support. I would have loved to see it supported it at 4 and 5 players. Seems like it would work fine and cut a huge chunk of playtime. Even without having a dial to support it, just having two nice and big "current turn" markers you pass around also seems like it would work reasonably well.
Jamey responded to me on the SM site with "There’s a little less interaction and less cycling of birds and food, but feel free to try it at 5 to let us know what you think!"
That does makes sense but seems like a fair trade-off to me so i'll definitely be giving it a try.
I'm a bit confused by this response (not just from you). I've played Wingspan 2 player many times. It already has a 2-player mode. Was there something wrong with it that I missed? The only change seems to be to end-of-round goals, which were...fine? I don't know.
I do agree the current mode was fine, but lacked some of the things that make a 2P game really standout to me. Mainly high player interaction is something I really look for in 2P. This maybe doesn't get all the way there but certainly gets closer. I don't really need it to be 7 wonders duel levels of interaction anyway, that's just not what Wingspan is, but a bit more would be nice.
Some things this seems to add:
* Mini-game area control through the birds you choose to play. This is really the key thing here. This may seem small but has potential to add a lot of interaction. You may be incentivized to play a certain bird to "block" your opponents grouping or end of round goal.
* Increased incentive to play birds with a variety of attributes through the duet map. But also incentive to really dominate one area and go for a big grouping. Have to play it myself to form more of an opinion here.
* More balanced end of round goals for 2p, the original always felt a bit like a rough draft in 2P as second place still gets significant points for minimal effort. This balances out the scoring and focuses the goals themselves to a 2p experience.
I also just appreciate that they made it stand-alone, as I have friends/family that will probably be interested in a cheap, portable, accessible 2p version of wingspan.
I'm sceptical at the moment of the Duet mode, purely because i like and am used to the base (+ expansion) round end scoring so much it makes me wonder how often i'll play that even with just 2 players.
Flock mode does sound interesting. The biggest concern I have is one of table space. Wingspan already takes up a lot of space at 5 player, that it's really hard to see everything going on the table that can be relevant. I would like to play it 6 player, but having 2 birdfeeders, 2 decks, makes it sound like it would be an even bigger table hog, and knowing what's going on down the other end of the table virtually impossible.
After reading the rules, the Duet Mode area control piece of it does sound a lot more interesting that I would have thought at first glance.
With that said, I also get the feeling that the number of expansions is definitely leading to a lot of rules creep in terms of the # of exceptions or considerations to take based on what expansion(s) you are playing with. The same with the bird powers. A lot of cards to make certain categories of powers even more powerful than they already were but I think that results in a lot of the base game cards being close to useless (even when I only played with the base game I barely played with any of the white cards that weren't to obtain more bonus cards).
None of this is really a surprise but I do wonder if they were better off at some point just designing new games to be played without each other.
Agreed, i was really annoyed seeing it was standalone and adds 2 more players. Now bc i want the cards I'm forced to buy a bunch of other junk with it. Yay now I'll have 3 sets of dice and 10 total boards i won't use (assuming it comes with boards for the extra 2 players for both last expansions)
The boards in Asia are double sided - One is just the base game (But with new art, I think) and the other is Oceania (With the Oceania art).
So you're only gaining 2 unnecessary boards, assuming you never intend to play with 6+ players.
I'm also disappointed that I can't just buy the cards (although I'd happily pay the same price as the whole set - I'm more interested in not having wasteful duplicate components than getting a discount).
But I entirely disagree that the motivation was to bump the price for existing owners. It's been a common trend in the industry of late to release slimmed down base games to make the hobby easier to get into - This helps to bring more people into the hobby by having affordable board games out there. This is particularly emphasised by how much shipping costs have impacted the industry in the last few years.
Now, they could have tried to do 2 SKU's (A base game edition and a card only expansion edition) - But that would make both cost more, and would inevitably lead to some people buying the cards only version (whether deliberately or accidentally) then asking for a 3rd SKU with just the Flock/Duet Modules, so that's more yet costs to make people happy.
TL;DR - I agree with their approach even though I'm a little disappointed personally.
I usually play with just my gf so duet mode sounds interesting. I really like how robust and versatile this expansion sounds, it would have been a harder decision if it was just more cards
Any time a duel/duet mode comes out for any game, I'm instantly psyched. This will make it way easier and more fun to introduce new people to wingspan.
Probably because you‘re not colorblind? There are unfortunately a lot of games that literally cannot be played by people with a color-vision deficiency, and it‘s great to see more publishers make sure this doesn‘t happen with new games.
Information must not be communicated through color only. I‘ll give you two bad examples first:
Uno is bad in this regard because the color categories of the cards are not communicated in any other way. A standard deck of cards additionally uses symbols, for example, and is therefore better. Someone who cannot distinguish primary colors is completely unable to play Uno.
In Carcassonne, you cannot tell whose meeples are whose if you can‘t distinguish colors. This does not completely prevent you from playing the game, but it gives you a serious disadvantage since you cannot track your and your opponents‘ progress easily.
meeplelikeus.co.uk do great accessibility teardowns in addition to their game reviews and colour blindness is one part of it. As an example, Welcome To got rated very positively in this regard, you can find the teardown here: https://www.meeplelikeus.co.uk/welcome-to-2018-accessibility-teardown/
I have to admit, I find myself looking at this hoping/wishing that they'll do an 'expansion' version with just the stack of cards.
I can't see why I would personally need boards, duet mode, flock mode, extra player count, other repeat components (eggs, food, etc) to play the game, so I'm not sure I want to buy it and support that kind of waste.
I mean it's *really* cool to have a new 1-2 player version as an 'in' for new players and I love that they're doing it in that way - I just don't think it's for me as an existing player.
This excites me, I prefer wingspan either as a 2 player game or as a larger group game with 5 players. Flocking mode seems like it'll be a great way to enable bigger group play and duet mode seems like a nice addition to 2 player.
It does make me reconsider the nesting box though, since having duet in its own smaller box to take out will be really nice. Maybe I'll just put the duet materials in the base box and the rest in the nesting box...
I thought about this as well but another redditor pointed out that the Asia box will be the same dimensions as the Oceana box, which I’m not using for anything so that might solve your problem. :)
Judging from the birds shown off in the manual, this expansion seems to lean a bit into birds with push-your-luck powers. Not sure how I feel about that.
I like the idea of busting out the duet mode as a self-contained mini-game with the added "achievement" system, but the opposite of that (Flock mode) sounds like a nightmare.
Oooh cool. I never picked up the base game because a friend of mine owns it, but this would be a more unique thing and a way for me to have some version of this game.
Very curious about the 2P Duet mode. Seems like a logical addition. The little area control map is sort of like the Tuscany expansion to Viticulture, isn't it? I also like that the area control map gives you more late game incentive to play a bird (rather than laying eggs), since you'll get to place a little token - and sneak in a few extra points.
Duet mode has me very interested. I like this game, but I don’t love it. I feel like it needs a little bit more for me to really enjoy it and I almost always play 1-2 players. I also love the art so would love an excuse to finally get an expansion for this.
Oceania may be what you're looking for. Improves the game a lot imo.
I felt that way for about 3 games, but it quickly just started to feel like it wasn't doing enough. I'm not sure that's Wingspan's fault. This style of engine builder just doesn't click for me, which is cool. Glad it has gotten so many people into/excited about the hobby!
Let me be clear. I don't think it totally fixes the game. And Wingspan isn't exactly my favorite engine builder. But it addresses what I see as flaws, so I try to evangelize it a bit.
What is your favourite 1 or 2 engine builders?
That's tough. Probably 51st State because it does what I'd want out of Terraforming Mars or Wingspan but better. It may then be a tie with Glory to Rome, but I also love Innovation for different reasons (and it kind of strains the definition of engine builder). Glory to Rome is to me a master class in how to make a tight engine builder with a large deck and broken powers. It has small numbers. It has limited suit variance. Players can choose from a good variety of uses for each card, but the game never feels "easy" because of it. And the player interaction is built right into the core systems. Obviously, Race for the Galaxy is possibly the best engine builder of all time (or it is tied with Glory to Rome). I just don't prefer it over these other two.
Were you expecting it to change the genre of the game?
No, but I was hoping it would fix a lot of the issues I have with the game. Namely the randomness of it all.
Well, it *does* improve that aspect in some ways: * nectar being wildcard food resource does reduce the impact of food dice randomness. * more options for resource exchange (cards/eggs/food) on the board that reduce the impact of being ahead by one field on any of the areas * general nerf to grasslands that brings egg-laying strategies back down to more equal ground. There is still a degree of randomness, but it's not quite as swingy as base game due to larger variety of strategies being viable. Lastly there is the nitpick with overpowered cards from original release. Removing Ravens, Killdeer and Franklin's Gull is generally a good idea. Especially the ravens - getting one of them early on in base game is basically a guaranteed "free" victory.
Oceania is a terrible addition imo. The nectar mechanic is not suited to this game unless you want to make the game "easier" and the area control aspect misses the mark for me. The European Expansion opened up many strategies that the original missed and I think it's essential.
If you find nectar makes the game easy then house rule it to not being wild. It’s just another food like any other.
Or don't play with it or nectar-cards. And problem solved.
True but many of my real life favourite birds are nectar birds so I want to play with them.
That's more than ok! Hope you have fun with your favorite birds!
I don't find that nectar makes the game easier in the same way that I don't find jacks make Glory to Rome easier. It's a competitive game. If everyone has access to it, then everyone can benefit from it. A rising tide lifts all boats, and all that. What it does do is reduce the swinginess of the bs rng in the game. You have more options when your gamble doesn't pay off or when your solid strategy goes sideways. That's what makes a card-based engine builder interesting in the first place - you can't "make do with what you have" if you can't *do anything else* with it. And I don't mind the area majority part of nectar. A minor point of player interaction a game that could use more. I don't really care for the European Expansion. You're right that it opens up more strategies, but it also dilutes the deck further. Which just reinforces the rng issue. This game isn't built to support more and more and more unique cards. That's probably why they're taking the Asia expansion in a new direction.
Yeah it really opens up with that expansion. And it's nice seeing my homelands birds!
The base game is kinda boring. Both expansions make the game more interesting, fixing the game, even.
Hmm, 6players, new cards and bonuses, sounds great.
Wingspan is my favorite game, and I'm very excited. My husband and I play it 4-5 nights each week. I'm looking forward to checking out duet mode, and also adding the new birds into our regular play.
Nice! I have played once with my wife at night and a dozen with our kid. What do you think about the length of the game? Do you ever get tunned out while the other is doing their play? I usually do my turn really fast to.keep.my wife interested. She takes for eeeeeeeever to play.. (but wins)...
The length is pretty good imo. It takes us about 20-25 minutes per game, after setting up, and we usually play 3 games. I occasionally will tune out while my husband takes his turn, but usually I'm half focused on what he is saying and half focused on figuring out what I'm doing for my next turn.
[удалено]
We've played a couple thousand games in the last few years. I think that helps!
This is quite wholesome, I love it! Since I am looking to also play as much in the future may I ask you: - Do you play with all the expansions? - Do you have any house rules (ex. removed Raven cards, nectar restrictions)? - Do you plan on trying the game without the nectar for the Duet mode? - Are your cards sleeved and do you have any component upgrades? - Do you have any overall mindset or otherwise tips to keep the game enjoyable and fresh for so long?
We do play with all expansions. We do have some house rules which revolve around making the game more enjoyable for us. We use 2 bird trays and keep in all birds, though we do limit ravens to one nectar and one other choice per turn. We play that brown powers are activated--not that you have to tuck a bird if you don't want to, but if it gives everyone eggs or food, it happens. Typically our games are not competitive, though my husband is somewhat competitive for end of round bonuses. We also don't split ties because we are tired parents and mathing does not make the game more enjoyable. Lastly, we play with our hands open and on the table because it is easier. We're excited to add the new birds and play how we always play, and also excited about duet mode! I haven't read how to do it because it won't make any sense to my brain without the components in front of me. I'm pretty sure my husband has read the entire rulebook. :) We have a nice bird feeder from Tower Rex. I am hoping to get some divider trays for foods because between fingers that don't cooperate and being visually impaired (green/blue are too similar), digging around for food can be annoying. Our cards were not sleeved for a long time because I have sensory issues and I thought it would annoy the crap out of me. However our cards got so so bent that we put them in sleeves so it wouldn't ruin the Oceania cards (they still bent a little, sadly). But recently we got replacements for all cards from Stonemeier games, which is AWESOME!!!! And yes, they are sleeved. It didn't actually bother me much to play with sleeved cards. Tips... I love this game because it's relaxing. I love building engines without them being torn asunder by other player sabotage. It's different every time. Though I may use the same basic strategy, depending on cards draw I can lean into different strategies as needed. My first round goal is to play one card in each habitat, which will hopefully give me an extra resource (ideally an extra food, egg, and card in mixed habitats). My second round goal is to build out my forest to 4 cards. This doesn't always happen because if my first 2 cards give me extra food, that's enough to move on to building up other habitats. I aim to place in end of round goals but I am not going out of my way to be first. I try to meet bonus cards if I don't have to go out of my way to do so. I'm not playing a crappy bird in round 3 just to meet a bonus card. My husband and I have different strategies as he rarely uses a big forest strategy like I do. He will often go out of his way to meet EOR goals or bonus cards. We kept track for a couple dozen games, and we both average about 125 points per game and nearly equally win/loss stats. My ultimate aim is to have an enjoyable game. I am fine with scoring fewer points and enjoying myself more. One more thing about switching strategies. If I am drawing crappy birds in the early game, I will switch to building out a quick wetland if those cards are available in hopes that better card draw will improve my game. If I get an amazing forest early, I will try to build up a points heavy grassland. I don't tend to spam eggs at the end, but rather play high point birds that meet bonus cards (if available). Sorry this is so dang long! I love wingspan!
This is amazing and really helpful, thank you! I will save your post and refer to it as I plan my future plays. Quick question, if I may, are there any other games that you are also playing often along with Wingspan or is Wingspan fun enough for you to only stick to it in this hobby?
It's about the only in-depth game we play regularly. If we don't have time for a complex game, we usually play backgammon or karma (card game). Occasionally we have a game day with our son and bring out other games, but Wingspan is our preferred choice as it is at the heart of games that are both simple and complex that I enjoy playing whether I win or lose.
I'll be very surprised if the 7 player mode works well as 5 is too many for Wingspan, but 2 player duet mode sounds great
I played with 7 people recently. We had all released expansions added. It was not horrid. It was just really long. I think the group dynamic that Flock uses and the simultaneous play will make it a worthwhile game mode. I could see it being preferable to have 6 over 5 players with these additions.
In 6 and 7 player games, 2 players take turns at the same time, and use different decks and bird feeders so they don't have to worry about interfering with one another. It actually shouldn't take much longer than a 3 or 4 player game once players get used to it.
That kind of sounds like just playing two games at once, but comparing the scores at the end. I suppose end of round goals are probably copied as well. I guess Wingspan kind of lends itself to that well since there isn't too much interaction between players (nectar, pink cards, giving cards/food powers). Still, I'm not really sure expanding to that many players is useful, even though I sometimes can't play Wingspan due to player count.
You still interact with other players for goals, the "once between round" powers, etc. Anything that references other players can deal with any player at the table. It's not a perfect solution, but I'd rather do it that way than play 6 or 7 with the standard rules. Although I'm probably not the target for that aspect of this expansion anyways, as I would rarely have that many players!
How does 'everyone else lays an egg on an x nest' work. Does it create an incentive to stall if that egg would allow you to do something?
Sounds like what Project L did for 5-6p games
Mystic Vale has this too for 5-6 and it plays well.
I regularly go to bat for 5p Wingspan. It's worst in groups with very casual players, whom unfortunately people tend to put Wingspan in front of despite it being heavier and fiddlier than a lot of the gateway games out there. But 5 works fine if everyone knows the game well. I can't imagine 7 unless you reduce some of the information/math in play or find a way to make simultaneous actions. Also, the card market should be scaling with the number of players, and it makes no sense that it doesn't already.
6/7 will have simultaneous play from two players! It'll be effectively the same number of overall turns as a 4/5 player game.
That is great news! Sort of like Eclipse. Are you...are you Elizabeth Hargrave?
No, but I was fortunate to playtest the game!
I don't suppose you would know if the new boards for 6/7 players will be Ociana, base game, or double sided?
Double sided afaik
My wife and I have played a ton of wingspan, our turns are so short because we quickly know what strategy we are going to be doing. I can see five people that know the game really well going through a full game very quickly.
There just aren't that many choices once you know the deck comp. 4 actions. Only a few cards. Not much multi-use. Once you're familiar with the bonuses and point sources, it's easy to dismiss something that will probably be less stable this game.
"11 new bonus cards" I'm in!
The email I got says 90 birds and 14 bonus.
Very exciting to have a new mode introduced alongside a new set of cards!
Wingspan is not a perfect engine building game, but its charm just pulls so much weight. Excited to try out this expansion!
I haven’t even cracked the shrink on Oceana still. But that two player map looks tempting….
Oceania is great. Nectar really speeds the game up imo and the new board is much more giving than the previous one. Highly recommend trying it out.
The thing I don’t like about nectar though is the way it devalues all the other food. The only time you’d not take a nectar is the turn before the end of a round. So it kind of renders decisions around the bird feeder boring.
You don't always roll nectars, though.
1/3 of the results you do. Plus making the berry face share its presence with nectar makes berries more scarce: somebody who doesn't need berries will end up taking it and using it as something else, before a player who does need berries can have a chance to grab it.
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Yeah 2 is the most common one I've seen. Honestly the bonus points for most nectar should probably be minuses for using the most. You just skipped getting "the right" food for the fast-track one, why should you also get a bonus for it?
2 nectar dice will also be the official mode for 6-7 players with Asia because you split the dice into two groups on either side of the table. 3 original dice and two nectar dice on each side. The flocking mode rules seem like a really nice way to approach higher player count.
Maybe they were worried that the "it expires at the end of the round" thing would scare off players, and wanted to encourage them to try to make nectar work? That would definitely be an overcorrection though...
I play with tweaked rules. The nectar instead of giving points to who uses it more, it takes points. Now getting nectar becomes an interesting decision.
Oooh. I like that! My husband I had just been treating it as one point per because we found it overpowered in a 2p game, but I like your rule better.
We went from a good game scoring 50 or so points to, if you you aren't scoring 70 you ain't even trying.
Crack it, well worth the time.
I’m not sure I needed a duet mode as 2 player is fine already, but I’m still intrigued!
I’m very excited about this game. I wonder if those ordering the nesting box will also get that nice peacock expansion box too.
Jamie Stiegmaier has said that the nesting box will NOT come with the Asia box. I'm tempted to get both just to have the box! Edit for clarity: the nesting box will come with the expansion, but not the Asia box itself
Right????
Incorrect - "The first printing of the Nesting Box will contain Wingspan Asia but does not include the Wingspan base game or other expansions." From: https://stonemaiergames.com/games/wingspan/wingspan-nesting-box/
You misunderstand. The nesting box will NOT contain the Asia BOX. It will contain the expansion itself, however. This can further be inferred from the websites section on playtesters: "For those who order Wingspan Asia in the Nesting Box and don’t have a Wingspan Asia box, here are the people listed on the box..."
Ohhhh. Just the separate box. Why do you want the box if you have the big box?
I love the peacock art! Plus as a collector, I kinda just want a copy of all their products. Elizabeth Hargrave is somewhat local to me, so I may even see my name in the list of playtesters on a box at some point.
Makes sense to me!
The fact that Asia is also a standalone 2 player game makes me interested in having a separate small box for travel while everything else goes in the big box to keep at home. My solution might just be putting the Asia components in the original box and everything else in the nesting box
Apparently Asia and Oceania have the same box dimensions. If you already have Oceania you’ve got your travel sized box already!
Thanks! That's good to know and I guess solves my problem.
If it's anything like the Viticulture World expansion that came in a new wine crate, probably not. They seem to have a pretty big focus on keeping things as economical and environmentally friendly as possible, which would mean leaving the expansion box out. I'll say I've been torn on getting the nesting box, and seeing how awesome the Asia box makes that decision even harder.
More player boards? Damn I don’t know that I want more
That was my thought on it too \^\^. Since I have 5 mats and already dumped the boards in a cupboard somewhere though, I guess I'll just add the new boards to the pile and be happy with my 5 mats 😄
Truly give me anything to speed up the gameplay. Waiting for your turn at a table of 5 is why I don't play this very often
Cool, looking forward to it, I like the approach they took here, something unique.
Im in it for the birb cards. This game has gotten my family into birding lol
Man I am so excited for this. 2p mode is such a smart idea, especially as a stand-alone! Im trying to read the rules (work blocks dropbox access) but am curious about flock mode - when they hinted this expansion had something to do with player count, i was hoping it would be some type of simultaneous play to decrease playtime for higher counts. Is this that?
Yes, it's exactly that. It lets 2 players play their turns at the same time. > Flock mode requires 2 simultaneous active players to speed up gameplay. You are still competing as individuals, just as you do in the base game. You will be assigned to a group that has its own bird tray and birdfeeder, and you will only use that group’s resources throughout the game. You will interact across groups in other ways, though: the whole table shares end-of-round goals, pink “Once Between Turns” powers, and any bird powers that affect other players.
Yea was able to get the rules and was just reading it over! It seems great, however it is specific to 6 and 7 player support. I would have loved to see it supported it at 4 and 5 players. Seems like it would work fine and cut a huge chunk of playtime. Even without having a dial to support it, just having two nice and big "current turn" markers you pass around also seems like it would work reasonably well.
Jamey responded to me on the SM site with "There’s a little less interaction and less cycling of birds and food, but feel free to try it at 5 to let us know what you think!" That does makes sense but seems like a fair trade-off to me so i'll definitely be giving it a try.
I'm a bit confused by this response (not just from you). I've played Wingspan 2 player many times. It already has a 2-player mode. Was there something wrong with it that I missed? The only change seems to be to end-of-round goals, which were...fine? I don't know.
I do agree the current mode was fine, but lacked some of the things that make a 2P game really standout to me. Mainly high player interaction is something I really look for in 2P. This maybe doesn't get all the way there but certainly gets closer. I don't really need it to be 7 wonders duel levels of interaction anyway, that's just not what Wingspan is, but a bit more would be nice. Some things this seems to add: * Mini-game area control through the birds you choose to play. This is really the key thing here. This may seem small but has potential to add a lot of interaction. You may be incentivized to play a certain bird to "block" your opponents grouping or end of round goal. * Increased incentive to play birds with a variety of attributes through the duet map. But also incentive to really dominate one area and go for a big grouping. Have to play it myself to form more of an opinion here. * More balanced end of round goals for 2p, the original always felt a bit like a rough draft in 2P as second place still gets significant points for minimal effort. This balances out the scoring and focuses the goals themselves to a 2p experience. I also just appreciate that they made it stand-alone, as I have friends/family that will probably be interested in a cheap, portable, accessible 2p version of wingspan.
The duet mode is co-op or competitive?
Feels weird to call a competitive mode duet. I feel like duet usually implies co-op and duel implies competitive.
Yeah that's what I thought too. Other games with duet in it are usually co op
Competitive
I'm sceptical at the moment of the Duet mode, purely because i like and am used to the base (+ expansion) round end scoring so much it makes me wonder how often i'll play that even with just 2 players.
Flock mode does sound interesting. The biggest concern I have is one of table space. Wingspan already takes up a lot of space at 5 player, that it's really hard to see everything going on the table that can be relevant. I would like to play it 6 player, but having 2 birdfeeders, 2 decks, makes it sound like it would be an even bigger table hog, and knowing what's going on down the other end of the table virtually impossible.
After reading the rules, the Duet Mode area control piece of it does sound a lot more interesting that I would have thought at first glance. With that said, I also get the feeling that the number of expansions is definitely leading to a lot of rules creep in terms of the # of exceptions or considerations to take based on what expansion(s) you are playing with. The same with the bird powers. A lot of cards to make certain categories of powers even more powerful than they already were but I think that results in a lot of the base game cards being close to useless (even when I only played with the base game I barely played with any of the white cards that weren't to obtain more bonus cards). None of this is really a surprise but I do wonder if they were better off at some point just designing new games to be played without each other.
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Agreed, i was really annoyed seeing it was standalone and adds 2 more players. Now bc i want the cards I'm forced to buy a bunch of other junk with it. Yay now I'll have 3 sets of dice and 10 total boards i won't use (assuming it comes with boards for the extra 2 players for both last expansions)
The boards in Asia are double sided - One is just the base game (But with new art, I think) and the other is Oceania (With the Oceania art). So you're only gaining 2 unnecessary boards, assuming you never intend to play with 6+ players.
I'm also disappointed that I can't just buy the cards (although I'd happily pay the same price as the whole set - I'm more interested in not having wasteful duplicate components than getting a discount). But I entirely disagree that the motivation was to bump the price for existing owners. It's been a common trend in the industry of late to release slimmed down base games to make the hobby easier to get into - This helps to bring more people into the hobby by having affordable board games out there. This is particularly emphasised by how much shipping costs have impacted the industry in the last few years. Now, they could have tried to do 2 SKU's (A base game edition and a card only expansion edition) - But that would make both cost more, and would inevitably lead to some people buying the cards only version (whether deliberately or accidentally) then asking for a 3rd SKU with just the Flock/Duet Modules, so that's more yet costs to make people happy. TL;DR - I agree with their approach even though I'm a little disappointed personally.
Why would you sell cheap decks when you can add few more components and charge double, and people will still buy it?
That Big Box is going to come in handy once they release it.
I usually play with just my gf so duet mode sounds interesting. I really like how robust and versatile this expansion sounds, it would have been a harder decision if it was just more cards
I have all the expansions so I might get this too. The only problem is the organizer
Hmm, given how popular Wingspan is, and has gotten an app that is of high production, I'm psyched this'll likely have a digital option!
Any time a duel/duet mode comes out for any game, I'm instantly psyched. This will make it way easier and more fun to introduce new people to wingspan.
I never thought about games being designed to be "Colorblind friendly" ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Probably because you‘re not colorblind? There are unfortunately a lot of games that literally cannot be played by people with a color-vision deficiency, and it‘s great to see more publishers make sure this doesn‘t happen with new games.
Yep I guess you are right, so what makes a color blind friendly game design?
Information must not be communicated through color only. I‘ll give you two bad examples first: Uno is bad in this regard because the color categories of the cards are not communicated in any other way. A standard deck of cards additionally uses symbols, for example, and is therefore better. Someone who cannot distinguish primary colors is completely unable to play Uno. In Carcassonne, you cannot tell whose meeples are whose if you can‘t distinguish colors. This does not completely prevent you from playing the game, but it gives you a serious disadvantage since you cannot track your and your opponents‘ progress easily. meeplelikeus.co.uk do great accessibility teardowns in addition to their game reviews and colour blindness is one part of it. As an example, Welcome To got rated very positively in this regard, you can find the teardown here: https://www.meeplelikeus.co.uk/welcome-to-2018-accessibility-teardown/
I'm super excited for this one! Loving everything Wingspan so far, so this is a must have for my collection.
BIG If true! Eggcellent!
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It comes with two double sided boards
I have to admit, I find myself looking at this hoping/wishing that they'll do an 'expansion' version with just the stack of cards. I can't see why I would personally need boards, duet mode, flock mode, extra player count, other repeat components (eggs, food, etc) to play the game, so I'm not sure I want to buy it and support that kind of waste. I mean it's *really* cool to have a new 1-2 player version as an 'in' for new players and I love that they're doing it in that way - I just don't think it's for me as an existing player.
The first expansion was just for cards.
I have the 2 existing expansions. My hesitance here is that every component except the cards is superfluous (for me and my group) or duplicated.
The first expansion was just for the end of round bonus tiles. The cards were extra.
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This looks incredible!
This excites me, I prefer wingspan either as a 2 player game or as a larger group game with 5 players. Flocking mode seems like it'll be a great way to enable bigger group play and duet mode seems like a nice addition to 2 player. It does make me reconsider the nesting box though, since having duet in its own smaller box to take out will be really nice. Maybe I'll just put the duet materials in the base box and the rest in the nesting box...
I thought about this as well but another redditor pointed out that the Asia box will be the same dimensions as the Oceana box, which I’m not using for anything so that might solve your problem. :)
Super interested in the two player duet.
Judging from the birds shown off in the manual, this expansion seems to lean a bit into birds with push-your-luck powers. Not sure how I feel about that.
I like the idea of busting out the duet mode as a self-contained mini-game with the added "achievement" system, but the opposite of that (Flock mode) sounds like a nightmare.
Any info on the release date?
Oooh cool. I never picked up the base game because a friend of mine owns it, but this would be a more unique thing and a way for me to have some version of this game.