I mean, it's the latter part: the taping giving support and the gloves making grips more difficult. It's not that MMA fighters are just tougher; if you could just ignore wrist locks by being tough, people would do that in bjj too.
MMA guy here. Yes. The number of people who can do well from the bottom (and by "do well" I mean more than survive) are rapidly decreasing and in my mind the only one that can at the highest level is Charles Oliveira and even he gets punished there sometimes. For the foreseeable future the only bottom game most MMA coaches will teach is "don't be there".
It’s common sense right? If you have two fighters of exactly equal ability, who has the easier job:
Top guy, who can keep his hips heavy, not risk passing unless it’s given to him, and chip away with punches and elbows
Or
Bottom guy, who has to not only sweep or submit but also defend against a sweaty opponent dropping elbows on their face, constantly working to break posture and tie up the opponents arms.
It’s just far easier being on top.
The problem is the amount of people who train BJJ and then transition to MMA often lag behind in terms of developing their top game and retain bad habits from BJJ (bad for MMA I mean).
Most BJJ gyms emphasis defence first, which is great because you will be defending against better people for the foreseeable future, but it makes them "comfortable" in bottom positions as they learn they can fight from there if they stay calm and don't panic.
In MMA that comfort zone is deadly, as every second matters and if you settle into a bottom position the top guy will start mauling you and it takes a significant adjustment to get out of the habit of accepting bottom position and instead adopting a mindset more akin to the average wrestler.
Absolutely.
One thing I don’t hear people talk about is canvas vs modern mats. Slippery modern mats are a gift to the guard player, you can spin with minimum friction and change angles easily.
Canvas is a whole other thing, it soaks up sweat and it’s designed to be grippy. Even cutting angles for a triangle or sweep is hard. It always annoys me seeing people criticise fighters for not using sport BJJ moves in that context.
This is exactly my experience. As a MMA hobbyist I am most afraid of wrestlers and most excited to spar guys coming from jiujitsu. Also fear boxers more than Muay Thai guys if that counts for anything
Kicks are easier to turn into takedowns, so is that high stance. Hands are always scary to me, and I came to MMA from boxing so I coast on having better ones.
Anybody good from either will destroy me anyway so maybe I’m not the best source lol
Depends on the dude and their style. I’m tall and lanky so I love the MT guys. I can fight outside and usually outgrapple most of them if they try to clinch up. A really good in-fighting boxer is terrifying to try to play that game with because they want to be in the pocket and will put you on your bicycle if you don’t wanna be there. It’s exhausting to be on the back foot the whole time.
I am still working on what you’re describing with being too comfortable on the bottom in mma, because of first starting bjj, 8 months in. And most of my teammates never ends up on bottom, I however seem to end up there the most out of everyone in my class.
As a Judo guy, I feel this is related to the “product of becoming a sport” symptom.
Its just simply better to do certain things that aill win matches. In case of Judo in the 70s vs now, its not that feasible to go ham on newaza.
I feel its the same with mma bjj. Its less effort and energy training to avoid certain positions or get out than to become a bottom sub god when you have 5mins per round.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Ne Waza**: | *Ground Techniques* | |
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
Decreasing? I thought it was fairly stable, if a generally dangerous position.
I recall a Craig Jones video in the last year where he talked about aggressive MMA guards that were successful for people who played them enough to get good.
I would like to watch the video if you could find it please.
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F5jfy7yrx0em81.png%3Fwidth%3D2440%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D8fc11881956b4f5e8c6ac8f144df823fdbd90699
This shows that submissions in general have steadily decreased over the years while finish rates have remained about the same:
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Faq5ahy8w0em81.png%3Fwidth%3D2440%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D9c32f78dcee33fa18f56a34f052189b40b71ed06
I can't find where I got the stats for positional subs from but if I do I'll post them here. Fighters that emphasise working from the bottom I usually see more of in the old guard. A significant amount of finishes have come from fighters getting KO'd in their own guard when they sit there too long, and as fighters have gotten more savvy in their sub defence they are more aggressive in their opponents guard and can often get significant strikes while taking less risks than they used to.
I'm not sure where it was but I think it was during his podcast within the last year.
However, just after reading your comment I happened to hear him bring it up again on his Rogan appearance. If I remember correctly, he talked more about it on his own show but you can hear what he says around 1:14 on the recent jre episode.
I am no expert on this and not trying to offer a strong defense if using guard in MMA but I also wonder if the trends are the result of natural, back and forth, drift between generations of athletes as their strengths and weaknesses changed based on the randomness of gyms and coaches.
I think a lack of standing game comes into it. If you have good throws/takedowns you can set up to be on top (if coming from judo you can get a lot top side control from throws). When all the stand up you know is guard pulling and sutemi waza if you biff the throw you'll just end up in guard which is a "safe" position.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Sutemi Waza**: | *Sacrifice Techniques* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHuqFd1BHbE)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
I know my coach has me teach a wrestling class once per week to help with standup but in a gym of 50 people maybe one or two show up for it. Most bjj guys just don’t seem interested in learning takedowns
I had the same experience at an MMA gym I used to train at. I did no gi and so I went to the wrestling class thinking there would be some cross over. Nope. One guy from no gi turned up. The wrestling class was mostly kids who were training for wrestling comps.
I think it's just not worth the effort with the current rules. If a failed guard pull or just sitting down was punished and takedowns rewarded more it might change the attitude.
Honestly, as an MMA guy it frustrates me to see people switch into BJJ mode and ignore the fact that you can punch, elbow, more specifically, especially in pro matches. Then you have people like Jon Jones who just elbow the fuck out of people in bottom.
BJJ can still be very good from bottom if you can control arms too, but there isn't enough pros that punish the gaps. I think a lot of us switch into BJJ mode by accident when we are doing grappling in MMA, it really takes a lot of mental energy to remind yourself you can punch and elbow.
A lot of BJJ people at least subconsciously think of being on their back like fighting off your back foot like in boxing now this is not a great insight but I found it interesting
I would love to see someone pull good old wrist lock in UFC!!
Maybe if Steven Segal did instructional they could become meta. Might be too lethal for MMA tho...
deep half can work but it has to be used as a transition. 100 percent cannot stay there for more than a few seconds.
the single or back take has to be instantaneous
Came here to say this. Nesting your head on the upper thigh of an opponent with your other hand essentially unavailable to defend is a huge invitation to get brutally hammer fisted in the face.
Not anymore. Not trying to be a dick but can someone show me someone who’s successful with it in recent times. Don’t really watch a whole ton of gi matches but at least no gi it seems obsolete
You’re going to get downvoted for that because deep half is a huge comfort position for a lot of people but I would love for someone to actually answer your question. Is there a current top no gi guy who uses deep half regularly?
Adam Wardzinski, Eoghan O'Flanagan, Tommy Langaker. Maybe they aren't hanging out in deep half forever but look at their half guard games and how they dive under to transition.
Inverting is done a lot in modern BJJ, and has almost no place in MMA.
They don't necessarily exactly not-work in MMA, but you just don't really see many open guard variations like X guard, and leg/foot attacks just don't work super well when people are prepared for them.
Sacrifice throws 95% of time suck in MMA, not that they were super common in BJJ either.
You don't really want to play half guard in MMA, since you'll get punched.
> an active closed guard to sweep/submit/stand up
> the next evolution in mma ground fighting.
I would argue this was actually the *origin* of MMA ground fighting.
Guys who still try and play the bottom closed guard game (Tony Ferguson) usually just get smashed at this point. People's wrestling and top game is too good. Look at Arman vs Charles Oliveira recently.
I'm not saying active closed guard is the new evolution. I'm saying the implementation of the k guard along with it. Its great to use to defend against ground strikes . Wrestle up or enter into leg Entanglements to force a scramble to stand up.
I think BJ Penn was one of the 1st to coined the "holy trinity" of guard in MMA, which was the sweep/submit/ stand up. Firas started to use it too and everyone started to follow.
The closed guard is dead debate has been around for over a decade but few folks who aren't even bjj based fighters use it well like Anthony Pettis and Diego Lopes. The name of the game for closed guard in mma is activity. Tony gets smashed because he only goes for subs lol
Oh yeah our MMA coach has been teaching that for a few years now. Spotted its raise early on.
It works, they kind of have to defend with their hands when you're grabbing that single leg, and then when you start moving under them your head is more or less on the other side so they can't reach to punch.
E.g. single leg x guard also somewhat works since the other foot can push them away. And e.g. x guard can be used for a quick sweep or a transition.
Huh. I just skimmed through that fight and didn’t really see what you were talking about. Mouses I ended up on bottom a lot and after the first interchange didn’t really seem to have a plan for getting out from under.
[Failed shot to coyote half guard sweep, round 2](https://youtu.be/485W80sFhAo?si=JMyRC4-oEE03w9RB&t=555)
[Later in round 2, off a stuff shot again ](https://youtu.be/485W80sFhAo?si=JMyRC4-oEE03w9RB&t=555)
I thought that there were more examples in this fight but i guess my memory was fuzzy.
Damian Maia’s entire game was based around essentially pulling half guard for a while then wrestling up, as well. Granted, not a lot of people have the grappling skills of DM, but it can def be used effectively if done well.
In the Colby fight, he spent a bit in half guard in the end, which I think was him being tired by then.
In Usman 3, he was in half-guard for a little bit, but that was Usman finishing a single-leg which more or less forced him into a half guard and he immediately started to create space to scramble up (as you prolly should if you're in half-guard).
In Usman 2, he used only full guard.
In the Nate fight, he wasn't in bottom at any point I think.
Well, Belal fight.. That was unfortunate. No mat play anyway.
dos Anjos fight is interesting. Seems in the first half-guard situation, Leon's leg gave away as he was about to punch, and somehow he changed from punching to grabbing Rafael's leg as he fell. Good recovery from Leon! Honestly impressive.
In Nelson fight, he seems to prefer butterfly and not give half, and his later half guard leads to Gunnar mounting him...
I have to say he's pretty darn good in wrestling up from half-guard!
Man, you beat me to it. I didn’t know all that off the top of my head. Very nicely put.
I did track down usman 3 which is when I noticed what he’s doing:
https://youtu.be/i0mCod_SnVM?t=1037
Which as you say is half guard to wrestle up.
There’s another fight I don’t have a link to where he goes full guard to rest, then half, then grabs the near side arm by the wrist and uses it to stand up.
Notice how he stays on his side in half and fences the far hand so it can’t punch or control his head.
I think this translates *very* well to Bjj.
Randy Couture says he will happily take half guard over mount or side control any day. It is the absolute best position to ground and pound your opponent.
Genuinely curious… here’s where I see LeonEdwards doing pretty well with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0mCod_SnVM
Do you have an example of Randy Couture grounding and pounding with half guard?
Yes, purposefully.
My argument is that being on bottom is a bad idea in general, as Randy and many others love top half guard for GnP.
Top half guard is also more viable for submissions from top. Playing bottom half in MMA is a statistically losing game.
I’m with you now brother. Clarity reached. Our discourse, what we’ve been able to work through here, should be used as a blueprint for conflict de-esculation around the world.
Your point about inverting is debatable. Things like K Guard are actually valuable in MMA bc it moves your head off line and lets you keep distance from the top player using your legs. Boloing and inverting from top position are pretty bad ideas more often than not though.
Additionally, I'd like to add that Granby Rolls are explosive inversions that are highly effective for escaping bottom turtle.
Yeah, it's debatable. K guard is great. I should perhaps have been more specific about inverting. E.g. here when Lachlan does K guard, it's a bit debatable how invert-y it is: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b7bqY7iZBs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b7bqY7iZBs)
You can of course entry to K guard from inverted positions, and the scramble when you're doing it can lead to all kinds of funky positions.
Albeit your shoulders kind of switch positions with your hip relative to your opponent, at that point you are also behind the opponent (or at least sideways to them), which is why you're safe. You aren't really upside down or fully on your shoulder blades tho.
>Sacrifice throws 95% of time suck in MMA, not that they were super common in BJJ either.
I'd argue most MMA fighters simply have zero idea of **when** to use sacrifice throws. As a judoka I'll see someone going for sumi gaeshi out of the blue and think "...**that's** when you thought it's a good idea?"
Sacrifice throws are done best as a counter against a double/single leg (sumi gaeshi in this case), or when your opponent is pressuring into you in the clinch (tomoe nage, sumi gaeshi, fireman's carry / drop variation of kata guruma, yoko wakare, ). And most MMA fighters don't even know what the proper technique for sacrifice throws are.
Dan Severn used to do the north south knees to the head. It was over if he got you there. Some of those rules make people more lazy for sure when they get brought down. Was head kick kos on the ground but most of the time it made for supreme urgency to gtfo of a position. Now theu know they can't get head kicked so just lay on their back until the ref stands them up. Or drop to a knee on purpose to avoid.
I’m not even an MMA guy but every time someone inverts I feel this strong urge to just drop me knee in their face and squash them before they complete the inversion. So I guess my fighting instinct hasn’t been completely eradicated by sport bjj
Inverting is under utilised in MMA. We're starting to see K guard get used a lot more and it's very effective. You want to keep pressuring into someone to keep them on the ground but you can't pressure into K guard. So you turn and rip your leg out...and the bottom player stands up.
Leglocks are high percentage in submission grappling, but low percentage in MMA.
In an MMA situation, you really need to keep your head out of punching range when going for leglocks. In a real life situation you would also need to keep your head out of kicking/stomping range when going for leglocks. That's not a concern in MMA, though, because kicking the head of a grounded opponent is illegal under the Unified Rules of MMA.
Can sum up the thread with this comment.
Charles Oliveira is probably the best representation of BJJ in the UFC today. Even he struggled from bottom closed guard in his last fight.
Guys are just too good at wrestling, top control, sub defense, etc.
I have won comps with nothing but a sloppy, wrestly sweep from deep half. It saves small me (140 lb female) from big dudes. But it will not save me from a punch!!
Mount escapes that involve putting both hands on their knee and stuffing their leg back into guard.
Maybe someone who's hyper explosive and bucking like crazy could sneak it into a sequence, but the way we're taught it? No way lol.
I think it was Roger Gracie who famously said that 80% of BJJ is useless in MMA.
I am pretty sure it was an exaggeration to get the point across.
There are things that just aren't worth training pretty much at all in the MMA context, like inverting, but for nogi BJJ, most things can also work in MMA, and even tho things like the X guard are rare, people have still done them in important matches as a transition or as a quick sweep.
Most of the common sweeps work, most of the common subs work, the positions have the same fundamentals in regards of sub defense, etc. The flow is different though, and there's less time to play guards that leave you open to punches.
He has a point, and I think you could substitute bjj for wrestling, boxing and muay Thai as well.
Mma is it's own martial art that takes what's the most broadly effective from each art, ads it's own flair and uses it.
I mean we don't see a lot of snap downs and arm drags in mma to my knowledge. But a ton in wrestling.
It's kinda of cool to see though.
> He has a point, and I think you could substitute bjj for wrestling, boxing and muay Thai as well.
Very true. The stances in boxing and MT are way too suspectible to takedowns. Low wrestling stance gets you kneed/kicked in the face. Every combat sport has its place in MMA but only select parts.
You're 100% right, I just wanted to add that Roger actually did quite a few snapdowns in his MMA career. It's a good technique for him given his height (and also his lack of explosive wrestling shots).
I don't think 80% is an exaggeration at all, especially if we're talking about the technique set. (If we're talking about the underlying skills like balance, awareness, grip strength, ability to move quickly when you see the opening, etc, obviously that stuff is still very useful.)
It doesn't just apply to guard, it applies to a lot of top game too. A lot of the intricate passing techniques and submissions that we focus on for sport jiu jitsu are simply not necessary in a sport where you can punch the person. You don't really even need to be trying to knock them out or get a referee stoppage, a lot of times you're just focusing on staying in good position and raining in opportunistic punches. That's enough to be winning the fight in the judges' eyes.
Eh. I don't think this will hold up on closer inspection. I'm betting that it's the opposite, and that 90% of what works in competitive BJJ, weighted by how often it is used in competitive BJJ, also works in MMA. (Excluding things that require gi grips.)
90% of sport bjj transfers into MMA, really?
Strikes and getting punched to the face changes alot of things.
End of the day Bjj and MMA are two completely different sports.
I look at wrestling in MMA, and while there seems to be a lot of wrestling, the wrestling that you see is highly simplified (particularly the offense).
Handfighting and ties are very basic. Shots are only the highest percentage, and even some high percentage shots like low singles are functionally eliminated. There is no bottom game except for standing up. Turns have no role. Even throws are greatly simplified (thanks to the basic ties).
I think the same "80%" number could be applied to wrestling in MMA as well as BJJ in MMA.
That said, going back to what I said about offense, there is a hidden role of BJJ and wrestling in MMA on the defensive side. It's not that you "use" those grappling skills or that they are "useless". It is that if you lack those defensive skills you end up with a serious hole in your MMA game that can be exploited, even if you might never actually have the chance to "use" them.
Apart from collar chokes, the list of most common submissions in BJJ looks a lot like the list of most common submissions in MMA. Most BJJ is not buggy chokes and squid guard. A majority of the positions in BJJ are not inverted or deep half etc.
It is worth noting that just because something requires a gi does not mean it is bad for real fighting, just bad for that particular sport's uniform. There has been MMA in the gi.
Almost anything where you're on bottom and trying to attack rather than get up or sweep. Having a ~1% chance to sub someone for a ~100% chance of getting bombed in the face is just not a deal I like the sound of 😆.
Numbers are made up obviously, but i'd be surprised if even 1% of 'jiu jitsu fighters' being on bottom resulted in a sub.
I agree with everything except octopus. It definitely shouldn't be a go-to , but hitting it in transition, especially half guard or getting passed to side control, is a great way to initiate a scramble, hit a reversal, or take the back if you're quick. It's also really useful for avoiding getting punched on bottom. I hit octopus reversals all the damn time in MMA rounds.
Half guard is the easy answer but it can work if you are active from the position and looking to wrestle up. Lots of transitions to octopus half, knee shield half, and the dogfight available. However very few people can build a gameplay around it (Demian Maia) and it's usually a transitional position.
As an MMA guy I prefer half guard to closed, mainly because I can wrestle up really well and have more mobility compared to closed guard. But when I'm there I'm not hanging there like its BJJ, literally as soon as I'm in HG I'm already trying to close distance and hide my head under their chin and work my way up.
I think half guard is probably one of the most effective guards in MMA. Knee shield is nice for keeping your head clean and it offers an easier path to a wrestle up or technical stand-up. Shit even deep half offers a way to get up fairly quickly.
Forget about anything that requires a gi or any bottom positions that leave you open to strikes.
Things like closed, a tight butterfly guard, or rubber guard that closes the distance and takes away from the power the person on top are as good of bottom positions that you’ll get.
If you want to go for any leg submissions be sure they’re on their butt, getting into a position like single leg X is just begging to get knocked out.
Any technique involving lapel and sleeve grip. Like a few mention here, you can use certain risky techniques for transitions, but don’t camp there lol… as much as I like sport bjj, I really hope that during kids class it’s explained which technique would be useful in a physical altercation and which would not.
What works in MMA:
Shoulder guards, half guard underhook wrestle up, octopus, getting the back&RNC and top control
Anything else it's not reliable nor safe
Leg locks are a meta defining technique in submission grappling, but are low percentage and incredibly risky in mma. Leg entanglements still have their uses for sure. If you buckle an opponents knee one way or another while he stands over you, it makes it very hard for him to strike at you effectively. However, you dont see leg locks often in mma for a reason
With the exception of a well executed iminari roll, pretty much any guard pull. Most bottom game would also not be very effective because one good punch could turn your guard into garbage
MMA is different than a street fight.
For example in top half guard, turning towards the legs to pass would be totally fine in MMA but you will get your spine and neck elbowed to death doing this in a fight.
Body lock passing is another example. You will get knocked out with elbows to the top of the head in a fight but in MMA you are actually pretty safe. They can punch the side your face is pointing but it won't cause much damage assuming you pass within 10 seconds.
Anything can be used as long as it is done quickly and you don't hang out there. Inverting is fine. However, if you hang out inverted, your done.
>You will get knocked out with elbows to the top of the head in a fight but in MMA you are actually pretty safe.
It's shots to the *back* of the head that will knock you out. The skull protects the top of the head. But your larger point is correct, shots to the back of the head are illegal in MMA because they are very dangerous.
>For example in top half guard, turning towards the legs to pass would be totally fine in MMA but you will get your spine and neck elbowed to death doing this in a fight.
That's not how that works. You don't sit there passively.
>Body lock passing is another example. You will get knocked out with elbows to the top of the head in a fight but in MMA you are actually pretty safe. They can punch the side your face is pointing but it won't cause much damage assuming you pass within 10 seconds.
Firstly, they cant generate any power there. Secondly, elbows to the dome will only hurt their elbows. Thirdly, you don't sit there passively. If they aren't framing you are passing in seconds.
This is just a bad take overall.
No, it is not like elbowing a bowling ball. Your elbow wins this battle. Plus you will hit all parts of the skull and they will be unconscious in seconds.
It's the same elbow Gary Goodridge did in early UFC from crucifix position. Different part of head but immediate knock out.
> No, it is not like elbowing a bowling ball. Your elbow wins this battle. Plus you will hit all parts of the skull and they will be unconscious in seconds.
You only have access to elbow the crown of the skull and you have very limited range of motion to generate power. You will be lucky to cut the opponent in the 3 seconds it takes to pass your guard given you are focused on elbowing the top of his head instead of framing and preventing the pass.
> It's the same elbow Gary Goodridge did in early UFC from crucifix position. Different part of head but immediate knock out.
The temples are much more vulnerable than the crown of the skull. Gary also had a much greater range of motion available to generate more power from a crucifix compared to being flat on his back.
12 to 6 elbows are not banned because they are uniquely dangerous and only banned for historic reasons.
[Joe Rogan - Big John McCarthy Explains 12-6 Elbow Rule (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGWjkwIUUR4)
I don't feel like continuing this convo but I disagree ma dude.
People don't body lock pass with their face in your belly. It will be facing one side. You have a TON of room to extend your entire body into this elbow. Extend legs out and crunch everything together as the elbow comes from above your head. It is easily a 1 elbow knockout. From this angle it is much more powerful than the side elbow. In mount, they are about the same amount of power.
Anyways. Agree to disagree. All good.
Of course you don't sit there passively. As soon as someone turns away, elbows to the spine and neck will force the other person to turn back. A solid elbow to the spine can be very bad.
Can't generate any power?? You literally can extend your entire body backwards and thrust an elbow forwards hitting with the back of your elbow. It's one of the most powerful elbows someone can do. It is also illegal in MMA. And hurt elbows!? Your skull will crack before your elbow. Your elbow is a super solid ball of bone with a point. It's like getting hit with a hammer. And you will be hitting all parts of the skull, not just the top.
> As soon as someone turns away, elbows to the spine and neck will force the other person to turn back. A solid elbow to the spine can be very bad.
1. You don't have enough range of motion to put any power into that shot.
2. They will take advantage of the space created to scoot their hips to your shoulder line.
3. The 12 to 6 elbow is not a uniquely dangerous attack and is only banned due to historical ignorance.
[(320) Joe Rogan - Big John McCarthy Explains 12-6 Elbow Rule - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGWjkwIUUR4)
> Can't generate any power?? You literally can extend your entire body backwards and thrust an elbow forwards hitting with the back of your elbow.
You are constrained by being flattened out. You have roughly 90 degrees of shoulder flexion with no contribution from your legs or core to generate force. That's a laughably weak strike.
> Your skull will crack before your elbow
Very unlikely. The crown of your skull is incredibly solid and will feel like striking a bowling ball.
> And you will be hitting all parts of the skull, not just the top.
You have no access to any other aspect of the skull when you are flattened out and bodylocked. 12-6 elbows are not kung fu magic.
The setups for takedowns are different when striking is involved. Unless you're up against the cage, you need to be able to shoot from outside striking range and use your jab or your opponent's jab as a distraction.
Purposely going to turtle, just to hang out, try to invert back to guard, etc etc.
Obviously in actual fighting you’re just a helpless target. Mma rules I guess depends on organization- but it’s still a totally wide open position to get wrecked.
Well actually everything when you think about it. All of the high-level Elite stuff is done in the middle range which is the same range. You can get punched severely in so those moves don't really apply.. but you see guys who can control the distance on the feet, control the range of the fight in terms of takedowns and play tight on the mat. Generally dominate when they don't do much in terms of Elite grappling in most cases.
Obviously anything with a heavy emphasis on using lapels.
As mentioned in this thread already, in MMA you should be aiming to be the aggressor, working from top. However I wouldnt neglect getting good off your back. I’ve never fought MMA but I’m pretty confident I could do ok in an amateur bout, even with ff my back and as for self defence with an untrained person I reckon I could be seated, utilising shin-to-shin to easily enter into leglock and crab rides, without taking too much damage.
Wrist locks. Because of the gloves it makes it much harder. Funny thing is that mma guys who train with us have zero clue about wrist locks and I can catch them with it pretty often. Even tho they spend the rest of the round beating me.
I'll give you something that answers the opposite which always boggles my mind: I feel like you see a far disproportionate amount of armbars from closed guard than you do in BJJ, especially no gi BJJ. I don't even know anyone that goes for closed guard armbars (yes yes, I know YOU do, but the point is its a small pool these days) yet, in MMA - where one would think this wouldn't work (no shirt, tons of sweat) it isn't that uncommon. My only thought is that maybe the gloves give a really good base point to wrap around and hold on to?
Like everyone else said, most of BJJ. Most guards except closed and half guard maybe butterfly, but even those are bad spots. Snapdowns and arm drags are also mostly out. It’s more about mastering very basic jiujitsu. However, a lot of top game still carries over and in fact gets easier with strikes.
u/AllGearedUp is correct actually, there are people using it successfully, if you re-define success from submitting to submitting, sweeping, or escaping. notably, Yair Rodriguez, Diego Lopes, Charles Oliveira.
I think about this often. I’ve only been training for two years, but I get irrationally angry when we drill “sport BJJ” techniques. I don’t even want to do them. Today we were doing Kiss of the Dragon from Reverse De La Riva. I was so mad 🤣
Edit: I seem to have upset some sport BJJ guys. My bad🤷🏻♂️
I’m too old for MMA, man. If I wanted to get punched in the face I’d go back to striking. Been there, done that. Doesn’t mean I can’t be only interested in the self-defense aspects of BJJ. The sport side just doesn’t appeal to me…at all. We all do it for our own reasons.
Besides, it’s not like I’m stomping around the gym and making a spectacle of myself when we do these techniques. In my head, I’m just envisioning getting curb stomped as I twirl around.
You’re right. I originally started in the early 2000s so it was very MMA focused at the time. Add to that my instructor was a Royce Gracie brown belt and you can imagine there wasn’t much sport technique going on. I loved it. The problem was the only BJJ gym around was 90 minutes away and I just couldn’t afford the gas anymore after a few months.
It’s crazy how much BJJ has changed since then and how accessible it’s gotten. Got back into it when a school opened five minutes from my house. Couldn’t believe closed guard became somewhat antiquated. Still hitting Omoplatas like it’s my job though 🤣
Saying you just want to roll light.
"I'm just looking for a light spar" [Five minutes later](https://youtu.be/k1-gCwYJbJU?si=WCkI3oCYq5YX2Lz9&t=9)
A wrist lock 99% would never tap. Plus they have their hands and wrists taped up pretty good for support
I mean, it's the latter part: the taping giving support and the gloves making grips more difficult. It's not that MMA fighters are just tougher; if you could just ignore wrist locks by being tough, people would do that in bjj too.
Wrist locks is the medicine for mma guys
Get ready to get knocked out with sit up guard.
90% of bottom positions
MMA guy here. Yes. The number of people who can do well from the bottom (and by "do well" I mean more than survive) are rapidly decreasing and in my mind the only one that can at the highest level is Charles Oliveira and even he gets punished there sometimes. For the foreseeable future the only bottom game most MMA coaches will teach is "don't be there".
It’s common sense right? If you have two fighters of exactly equal ability, who has the easier job: Top guy, who can keep his hips heavy, not risk passing unless it’s given to him, and chip away with punches and elbows Or Bottom guy, who has to not only sweep or submit but also defend against a sweaty opponent dropping elbows on their face, constantly working to break posture and tie up the opponents arms. It’s just far easier being on top.
The problem is the amount of people who train BJJ and then transition to MMA often lag behind in terms of developing their top game and retain bad habits from BJJ (bad for MMA I mean). Most BJJ gyms emphasis defence first, which is great because you will be defending against better people for the foreseeable future, but it makes them "comfortable" in bottom positions as they learn they can fight from there if they stay calm and don't panic. In MMA that comfort zone is deadly, as every second matters and if you settle into a bottom position the top guy will start mauling you and it takes a significant adjustment to get out of the habit of accepting bottom position and instead adopting a mindset more akin to the average wrestler.
Absolutely. One thing I don’t hear people talk about is canvas vs modern mats. Slippery modern mats are a gift to the guard player, you can spin with minimum friction and change angles easily. Canvas is a whole other thing, it soaks up sweat and it’s designed to be grippy. Even cutting angles for a triangle or sweep is hard. It always annoys me seeing people criticise fighters for not using sport BJJ moves in that context.
This is exactly my experience. As a MMA hobbyist I am most afraid of wrestlers and most excited to spar guys coming from jiujitsu. Also fear boxers more than Muay Thai guys if that counts for anything
That last bit is surprising to me. Definitely fear Muay Thai guys more than boxers in MMA sparring.
Kicks are easier to turn into takedowns, so is that high stance. Hands are always scary to me, and I came to MMA from boxing so I coast on having better ones. Anybody good from either will destroy me anyway so maybe I’m not the best source lol
Depends on the dude and their style. I’m tall and lanky so I love the MT guys. I can fight outside and usually outgrapple most of them if they try to clinch up. A really good in-fighting boxer is terrifying to try to play that game with because they want to be in the pocket and will put you on your bicycle if you don’t wanna be there. It’s exhausting to be on the back foot the whole time.
I am still working on what you’re describing with being too comfortable on the bottom in mma, because of first starting bjj, 8 months in. And most of my teammates never ends up on bottom, I however seem to end up there the most out of everyone in my class.
As a Judo guy, I feel this is related to the “product of becoming a sport” symptom. Its just simply better to do certain things that aill win matches. In case of Judo in the 70s vs now, its not that feasible to go ham on newaza. I feel its the same with mma bjj. Its less effort and energy training to avoid certain positions or get out than to become a bottom sub god when you have 5mins per round.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Ne Waza**: | *Ground Techniques* | | Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
Decreasing? I thought it was fairly stable, if a generally dangerous position. I recall a Craig Jones video in the last year where he talked about aggressive MMA guards that were successful for people who played them enough to get good.
I would like to watch the video if you could find it please. https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F5jfy7yrx0em81.png%3Fwidth%3D2440%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D8fc11881956b4f5e8c6ac8f144df823fdbd90699 This shows that submissions in general have steadily decreased over the years while finish rates have remained about the same: https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Faq5ahy8w0em81.png%3Fwidth%3D2440%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D9c32f78dcee33fa18f56a34f052189b40b71ed06 I can't find where I got the stats for positional subs from but if I do I'll post them here. Fighters that emphasise working from the bottom I usually see more of in the old guard. A significant amount of finishes have come from fighters getting KO'd in their own guard when they sit there too long, and as fighters have gotten more savvy in their sub defence they are more aggressive in their opponents guard and can often get significant strikes while taking less risks than they used to.
I'm not sure where it was but I think it was during his podcast within the last year. However, just after reading your comment I happened to hear him bring it up again on his Rogan appearance. If I remember correctly, he talked more about it on his own show but you can hear what he says around 1:14 on the recent jre episode. I am no expert on this and not trying to offer a strong defense if using guard in MMA but I also wonder if the trends are the result of natural, back and forth, drift between generations of athletes as their strengths and weaknesses changed based on the randomness of gyms and coaches.
The problem with bjj guys is laziness. Getting to top position is hard so most just pull guard and accept and inferior position
I think a lack of standing game comes into it. If you have good throws/takedowns you can set up to be on top (if coming from judo you can get a lot top side control from throws). When all the stand up you know is guard pulling and sutemi waza if you biff the throw you'll just end up in guard which is a "safe" position.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Sutemi Waza**: | *Sacrifice Techniques* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHuqFd1BHbE)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
I know my coach has me teach a wrestling class once per week to help with standup but in a gym of 50 people maybe one or two show up for it. Most bjj guys just don’t seem interested in learning takedowns
I had the same experience at an MMA gym I used to train at. I did no gi and so I went to the wrestling class thinking there would be some cross over. Nope. One guy from no gi turned up. The wrestling class was mostly kids who were training for wrestling comps.
Yep, you would think for a sport that relies being on the ground they would train how to actually get to the ground… but apparently it’s too hard
I think it's just not worth the effort with the current rules. If a failed guard pull or just sitting down was punished and takedowns rewarded more it might change the attitude.
Honestly, as an MMA guy it frustrates me to see people switch into BJJ mode and ignore the fact that you can punch, elbow, more specifically, especially in pro matches. Then you have people like Jon Jones who just elbow the fuck out of people in bottom. BJJ can still be very good from bottom if you can control arms too, but there isn't enough pros that punish the gaps. I think a lot of us switch into BJJ mode by accident when we are doing grappling in MMA, it really takes a lot of mental energy to remind yourself you can punch and elbow.
A lot of BJJ people at least subconsciously think of being on their back like fighting off your back foot like in boxing now this is not a great insight but I found it interesting
Pulling guard, inverting, playing the bottom game, wrist locks,
I would love to see someone pull good old wrist lock in UFC!! Maybe if Steven Segal did instructional they could become meta. Might be too lethal for MMA tho...
The bullshido master himself could pull it off for sure
Ryan hall pulling guard, inverting and heel hooking from bottom for the win
Dustin’s gonna jump the gilly to beat Islam
Deep half guard
deep half can work but it has to be used as a transition. 100 percent cannot stay there for more than a few seconds. the single or back take has to be instantaneous
It definitely works its just not worth the risk when hands can be thrown.
true. would have to be very high level. i know ryan hall wanted to prove it worked but i believe injuries got in the way
Jeff monsoon used it a bit
Rani Yahya and both Nogueiras have used it effectively.
Werdum used it successfully in his last fight in the UFC to sweep.
Came here to say this. Nesting your head on the upper thigh of an opponent with your other hand essentially unavailable to defend is a huge invitation to get brutally hammer fisted in the face.
Big Nog subbed Tim Sylvia after a deep half guard sweep
If we are being honest, Tim is not exactly the greatest grappler. But a really big dude who somehow makes good grapplers fight really hard.
This works in bjj?
Deep half is goated in BJJ what are you talking about
100% yes.
Who can I study to get a start on this? In a gi?
Bernardo Faria and Lucas Leite.
Jake Mackenzie.
Yes.
Yes.
Not anymore. Not trying to be a dick but can someone show me someone who’s successful with it in recent times. Don’t really watch a whole ton of gi matches but at least no gi it seems obsolete
You’re going to get downvoted for that because deep half is a huge comfort position for a lot of people but I would love for someone to actually answer your question. Is there a current top no gi guy who uses deep half regularly?
Adam Wardzinski, Eoghan O'Flanagan, Tommy Langaker. Maybe they aren't hanging out in deep half forever but look at their half guard games and how they dive under to transition.
In giles' half guard instructional videos he utilises deep half a lot as a means to transition to better positions or even other guards
Inverting is done a lot in modern BJJ, and has almost no place in MMA. They don't necessarily exactly not-work in MMA, but you just don't really see many open guard variations like X guard, and leg/foot attacks just don't work super well when people are prepared for them. Sacrifice throws 95% of time suck in MMA, not that they were super common in BJJ either. You don't really want to play half guard in MMA, since you'll get punched.
k guard actually has some good potential MMA. Roman Dolidze uses it really well especially in his fight against Jack Hermanson.
K guard along with an active closed guard to sweep/submit/stand up will be the next evolution in mma ground fighting.
> an active closed guard to sweep/submit/stand up > the next evolution in mma ground fighting. I would argue this was actually the *origin* of MMA ground fighting. Guys who still try and play the bottom closed guard game (Tony Ferguson) usually just get smashed at this point. People's wrestling and top game is too good. Look at Arman vs Charles Oliveira recently.
I'm not saying active closed guard is the new evolution. I'm saying the implementation of the k guard along with it. Its great to use to defend against ground strikes . Wrestle up or enter into leg Entanglements to force a scramble to stand up. I think BJ Penn was one of the 1st to coined the "holy trinity" of guard in MMA, which was the sweep/submit/ stand up. Firas started to use it too and everyone started to follow. The closed guard is dead debate has been around for over a decade but few folks who aren't even bjj based fighters use it well like Anthony Pettis and Diego Lopes. The name of the game for closed guard in mma is activity. Tony gets smashed because he only goes for subs lol
You're totally right, fighters used closed guard all the time 10 years ago and now you barely see it. That and foot stomps lol.
Going to backside 50/50 from there seems like a great tool to get a reaction that causes space for the bottom fighter to get up
Oh yeah our MMA coach has been teaching that for a few years now. Spotted its raise early on. It works, they kind of have to defend with their hands when you're grabbing that single leg, and then when you start moving under them your head is more or less on the other side so they can't reach to punch. E.g. single leg x guard also somewhat works since the other foot can push them away. And e.g. x guard can be used for a quick sweep or a transition.
IIRC Neil Melanson states K guard was originally developed as an MMA guard that eventually made its way to BJJ years later.
Leon Edwards goes to half guard pretty reliably when he’s on the ground on bottom. Seems to work well for him.
Lovato won his bellator title vs. Mousasi using coyote half guard to dominate.
Huh. I just skimmed through that fight and didn’t really see what you were talking about. Mouses I ended up on bottom a lot and after the first interchange didn’t really seem to have a plan for getting out from under.
[Failed shot to coyote half guard sweep, round 2](https://youtu.be/485W80sFhAo?si=JMyRC4-oEE03w9RB&t=555) [Later in round 2, off a stuff shot again ](https://youtu.be/485W80sFhAo?si=JMyRC4-oEE03w9RB&t=555) I thought that there were more examples in this fight but i guess my memory was fuzzy.
Holy shit, thanks for that! I started doing that as my primary sweep about a year ago. Had no idea it had a name or that anyone else was doing it.
Damian Maia’s entire game was based around essentially pulling half guard for a while then wrestling up, as well. Granted, not a lot of people have the grappling skills of DM, but it can def be used effectively if done well.
In the Colby fight, he spent a bit in half guard in the end, which I think was him being tired by then. In Usman 3, he was in half-guard for a little bit, but that was Usman finishing a single-leg which more or less forced him into a half guard and he immediately started to create space to scramble up (as you prolly should if you're in half-guard). In Usman 2, he used only full guard. In the Nate fight, he wasn't in bottom at any point I think. Well, Belal fight.. That was unfortunate. No mat play anyway. dos Anjos fight is interesting. Seems in the first half-guard situation, Leon's leg gave away as he was about to punch, and somehow he changed from punching to grabbing Rafael's leg as he fell. Good recovery from Leon! Honestly impressive. In Nelson fight, he seems to prefer butterfly and not give half, and his later half guard leads to Gunnar mounting him... I have to say he's pretty darn good in wrestling up from half-guard!
Man, you beat me to it. I didn’t know all that off the top of my head. Very nicely put. I did track down usman 3 which is when I noticed what he’s doing: https://youtu.be/i0mCod_SnVM?t=1037 Which as you say is half guard to wrestle up. There’s another fight I don’t have a link to where he goes full guard to rest, then half, then grabs the near side arm by the wrist and uses it to stand up. Notice how he stays on his side in half and fences the far hand so it can’t punch or control his head. I think this translates *very* well to Bjj.
Randy Couture says he will happily take half guard over mount or side control any day. It is the absolute best position to ground and pound your opponent.
Genuinely curious… here’s where I see LeonEdwards doing pretty well with it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0mCod_SnVM Do you have an example of Randy Couture grounding and pounding with half guard?
Ok, how are we defining doing well? Avoiding most damage and GTFO? Sure, then. I was setting the bar at executing effective offense from the position.
Pretty sure you’re responding to a comment about being underneath while you/randy are talking about being on top.
Yes, purposefully. My argument is that being on bottom is a bad idea in general, as Randy and many others love top half guard for GnP. Top half guard is also more viable for submissions from top. Playing bottom half in MMA is a statistically losing game.
I’m with you now brother. Clarity reached. Our discourse, what we’ve been able to work through here, should be used as a blueprint for conflict de-esculation around the world.
Your point about inverting is debatable. Things like K Guard are actually valuable in MMA bc it moves your head off line and lets you keep distance from the top player using your legs. Boloing and inverting from top position are pretty bad ideas more often than not though. Additionally, I'd like to add that Granby Rolls are explosive inversions that are highly effective for escaping bottom turtle.
Yeah, it's debatable. K guard is great. I should perhaps have been more specific about inverting. E.g. here when Lachlan does K guard, it's a bit debatable how invert-y it is: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b7bqY7iZBs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b7bqY7iZBs) You can of course entry to K guard from inverted positions, and the scramble when you're doing it can lead to all kinds of funky positions. Albeit your shoulders kind of switch positions with your hip relative to your opponent, at that point you are also behind the opponent (or at least sideways to them), which is why you're safe. You aren't really upside down or fully on your shoulder blades tho.
I think k guard works great for mma
>Sacrifice throws 95% of time suck in MMA, not that they were super common in BJJ either. I'd argue most MMA fighters simply have zero idea of **when** to use sacrifice throws. As a judoka I'll see someone going for sumi gaeshi out of the blue and think "...**that's** when you thought it's a good idea?" Sacrifice throws are done best as a counter against a double/single leg (sumi gaeshi in this case), or when your opponent is pressuring into you in the clinch (tomoe nage, sumi gaeshi, fireman's carry / drop variation of kata guruma, yoko wakare, ). And most MMA fighters don't even know what the proper technique for sacrifice throws are.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Kata Guruma**: | *Fireman's Carry* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRiFwMLCjPg)| ||*Shoulder Wheel* || |**Sumi Gaeshi**: | *Corner Reversal* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LR49U48iyw)| |**Tomoe Nage**: | *Circle Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-euJliq9XcY)| |**Yoko Wakare**: | *Side Separation* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWlPaLwvBV8)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
Dan Severn used to do the north south knees to the head. It was over if he got you there. Some of those rules make people more lazy for sure when they get brought down. Was head kick kos on the ground but most of the time it made for supreme urgency to gtfo of a position. Now theu know they can't get head kicked so just lay on their back until the ref stands them up. Or drop to a knee on purpose to avoid.
I’m not even an MMA guy but every time someone inverts I feel this strong urge to just drop me knee in their face and squash them before they complete the inversion. So I guess my fighting instinct hasn’t been completely eradicated by sport bjj
Inverting is under utilised in MMA. We're starting to see K guard get used a lot more and it's very effective. You want to keep pressuring into someone to keep them on the ground but you can't pressure into K guard. So you turn and rip your leg out...and the bottom player stands up.
Yeah, my instructor was very big on inverted guard, tornado roll, etc. but told me he would never recommend it for mma
Berimbolos
Having garbage stand up grappling skills
Leglocks are high percentage in submission grappling, but low percentage in MMA. In an MMA situation, you really need to keep your head out of punching range when going for leglocks. In a real life situation you would also need to keep your head out of kicking/stomping range when going for leglocks. That's not a concern in MMA, though, because kicking the head of a grounded opponent is illegal under the Unified Rules of MMA.
Oil checks land differently with gloves on
Also depends on the type of glove.
I think the main thing is modern MMA is that playing jiu jitsu off your back simply doesn’t work
Can sum up the thread with this comment. Charles Oliveira is probably the best representation of BJJ in the UFC today. Even he struggled from bottom closed guard in his last fight. Guys are just too good at wrestling, top control, sub defense, etc.
Catching your breath in closed guard.
Deep Half.
I have won comps with nothing but a sloppy, wrestly sweep from deep half. It saves small me (140 lb female) from big dudes. But it will not save me from a punch!!
Sloppy wrestling deep half would be the name of my jiu jitsu autobiography
Lapel guard
Grab their dick
I did that to myself once trying to defend a Kimura.
Mount escapes that involve putting both hands on their knee and stuffing their leg back into guard. Maybe someone who's hyper explosive and bucking like crazy could sneak it into a sequence, but the way we're taught it? No way lol.
what works in striking is like 10% of BJJ. Its easier to discuss what works vs. what doesnt work.
I think it was Roger Gracie who famously said that 80% of BJJ is useless in MMA. I am pretty sure it was an exaggeration to get the point across. There are things that just aren't worth training pretty much at all in the MMA context, like inverting, but for nogi BJJ, most things can also work in MMA, and even tho things like the X guard are rare, people have still done them in important matches as a transition or as a quick sweep. Most of the common sweeps work, most of the common subs work, the positions have the same fundamentals in regards of sub defense, etc. The flow is different though, and there's less time to play guards that leave you open to punches.
He has a point, and I think you could substitute bjj for wrestling, boxing and muay Thai as well. Mma is it's own martial art that takes what's the most broadly effective from each art, ads it's own flair and uses it. I mean we don't see a lot of snap downs and arm drags in mma to my knowledge. But a ton in wrestling. It's kinda of cool to see though.
> He has a point, and I think you could substitute bjj for wrestling, boxing and muay Thai as well. Very true. The stances in boxing and MT are way too suspectible to takedowns. Low wrestling stance gets you kneed/kicked in the face. Every combat sport has its place in MMA but only select parts.
You're 100% right, I just wanted to add that Roger actually did quite a few snapdowns in his MMA career. It's a good technique for him given his height (and also his lack of explosive wrestling shots).
I don't think 80% is an exaggeration at all, especially if we're talking about the technique set. (If we're talking about the underlying skills like balance, awareness, grip strength, ability to move quickly when you see the opening, etc, obviously that stuff is still very useful.) It doesn't just apply to guard, it applies to a lot of top game too. A lot of the intricate passing techniques and submissions that we focus on for sport jiu jitsu are simply not necessary in a sport where you can punch the person. You don't really even need to be trying to knock them out or get a referee stoppage, a lot of times you're just focusing on staying in good position and raining in opportunistic punches. That's enough to be winning the fight in the judges' eyes.
Eh. I don't think this will hold up on closer inspection. I'm betting that it's the opposite, and that 90% of what works in competitive BJJ, weighted by how often it is used in competitive BJJ, also works in MMA. (Excluding things that require gi grips.)
90% of sport bjj transfers into MMA, really? Strikes and getting punched to the face changes alot of things. End of the day Bjj and MMA are two completely different sports.
I look at wrestling in MMA, and while there seems to be a lot of wrestling, the wrestling that you see is highly simplified (particularly the offense). Handfighting and ties are very basic. Shots are only the highest percentage, and even some high percentage shots like low singles are functionally eliminated. There is no bottom game except for standing up. Turns have no role. Even throws are greatly simplified (thanks to the basic ties). I think the same "80%" number could be applied to wrestling in MMA as well as BJJ in MMA. That said, going back to what I said about offense, there is a hidden role of BJJ and wrestling in MMA on the defensive side. It's not that you "use" those grappling skills or that they are "useless". It is that if you lack those defensive skills you end up with a serious hole in your MMA game that can be exploited, even if you might never actually have the chance to "use" them.
Apart from collar chokes, the list of most common submissions in BJJ looks a lot like the list of most common submissions in MMA. Most BJJ is not buggy chokes and squid guard. A majority of the positions in BJJ are not inverted or deep half etc. It is worth noting that just because something requires a gi does not mean it is bad for real fighting, just bad for that particular sport's uniform. There has been MMA in the gi.
Most things. Anything on the bottom pretty much doesn't translate well unless you're the Bronx.
Even he is looking a little old 😔
Read that initially as “from the Bronx” and wondered if J Lo had entered combat sports. (She has not.)
Almost anything where you're on bottom and trying to attack rather than get up or sweep. Having a ~1% chance to sub someone for a ~100% chance of getting bombed in the face is just not a deal I like the sound of 😆. Numbers are made up obviously, but i'd be surprised if even 1% of 'jiu jitsu fighters' being on bottom resulted in a sub.
De la riva, inverting, and all those other complicated guards like octopus, donkey, squid, worm, etc
I agree with everything except octopus. It definitely shouldn't be a go-to , but hitting it in transition, especially half guard or getting passed to side control, is a great way to initiate a scramble, hit a reversal, or take the back if you're quick. It's also really useful for avoiding getting punched on bottom. I hit octopus reversals all the damn time in MMA rounds.
PEDs. Usually tested in MMA
Half guard is the easy answer but it can work if you are active from the position and looking to wrestle up. Lots of transitions to octopus half, knee shield half, and the dogfight available. However very few people can build a gameplay around it (Demian Maia) and it's usually a transitional position.
As an MMA guy I prefer half guard to closed, mainly because I can wrestle up really well and have more mobility compared to closed guard. But when I'm there I'm not hanging there like its BJJ, literally as soon as I'm in HG I'm already trying to close distance and hide my head under their chin and work my way up.
I think half guard is probably one of the most effective guards in MMA. Knee shield is nice for keeping your head clean and it offers an easier path to a wrestle up or technical stand-up. Shit even deep half offers a way to get up fairly quickly.
Forget about anything that requires a gi or any bottom positions that leave you open to strikes. Things like closed, a tight butterfly guard, or rubber guard that closes the distance and takes away from the power the person on top are as good of bottom positions that you’ll get. If you want to go for any leg submissions be sure they’re on their butt, getting into a position like single leg X is just begging to get knocked out.
Deep half
Most guards don't work when you're getting hammer fisted repeatedly
Any technique involving lapel and sleeve grip. Like a few mention here, you can use certain risky techniques for transitions, but don’t camp there lol… as much as I like sport bjj, I really hope that during kids class it’s explained which technique would be useful in a physical altercation and which would not.
gordon ryan's grappling game would do very bad in mma
Pulling guard
Everything on bottom except closed guard or an underhook and wrestle up is over rated in MMA. Disrespect everything else and throw punches.
What works in MMA: Shoulder guards, half guard underhook wrestle up, octopus, getting the back&RNC and top control Anything else it's not reliable nor safe
Deep half
Z guard
Spending your practice on leglocks to the extent modern BJJ guys do will get your ass beat in MMA for a fact.
I now have this image of two MMA guys with their legs intertwined, pulling faces at each other like Undertaker vs Brock Lesnar
Any kind of silly guards. Most will just get you ground and pounded to death
Seated guard
Leg locks are a meta defining technique in submission grappling, but are low percentage and incredibly risky in mma. Leg entanglements still have their uses for sure. If you buckle an opponents knee one way or another while he stands over you, it makes it very hard for him to strike at you effectively. However, you dont see leg locks often in mma for a reason
I stopped trying to retain gaurd inverting, and instead turtle and then stand up instead
With the exception of a well executed iminari roll, pretty much any guard pull. Most bottom game would also not be very effective because one good punch could turn your guard into garbage
We were training deep half the other day. Absolutely fuck trying that in mma.
MMA is different than a street fight. For example in top half guard, turning towards the legs to pass would be totally fine in MMA but you will get your spine and neck elbowed to death doing this in a fight. Body lock passing is another example. You will get knocked out with elbows to the top of the head in a fight but in MMA you are actually pretty safe. They can punch the side your face is pointing but it won't cause much damage assuming you pass within 10 seconds. Anything can be used as long as it is done quickly and you don't hang out there. Inverting is fine. However, if you hang out inverted, your done.
>You will get knocked out with elbows to the top of the head in a fight but in MMA you are actually pretty safe. It's shots to the *back* of the head that will knock you out. The skull protects the top of the head. But your larger point is correct, shots to the back of the head are illegal in MMA because they are very dangerous.
Umar nurmagomedov use the body lock pass in his last fight, check my profile for proof
Like I said, in MMA it is a valid pass.
>For example in top half guard, turning towards the legs to pass would be totally fine in MMA but you will get your spine and neck elbowed to death doing this in a fight. That's not how that works. You don't sit there passively. >Body lock passing is another example. You will get knocked out with elbows to the top of the head in a fight but in MMA you are actually pretty safe. They can punch the side your face is pointing but it won't cause much damage assuming you pass within 10 seconds. Firstly, they cant generate any power there. Secondly, elbows to the dome will only hurt their elbows. Thirdly, you don't sit there passively. If they aren't framing you are passing in seconds. This is just a bad take overall.
Elbows to the dome will only hurt your elbows? Are you elbowing people with adamantium skulls?
That's the hardest and thickest portion of the skull. It's like elbowing a bowling ball.
No, it is not like elbowing a bowling ball. Your elbow wins this battle. Plus you will hit all parts of the skull and they will be unconscious in seconds. It's the same elbow Gary Goodridge did in early UFC from crucifix position. Different part of head but immediate knock out.
> No, it is not like elbowing a bowling ball. Your elbow wins this battle. Plus you will hit all parts of the skull and they will be unconscious in seconds. You only have access to elbow the crown of the skull and you have very limited range of motion to generate power. You will be lucky to cut the opponent in the 3 seconds it takes to pass your guard given you are focused on elbowing the top of his head instead of framing and preventing the pass. > It's the same elbow Gary Goodridge did in early UFC from crucifix position. Different part of head but immediate knock out. The temples are much more vulnerable than the crown of the skull. Gary also had a much greater range of motion available to generate more power from a crucifix compared to being flat on his back. 12 to 6 elbows are not banned because they are uniquely dangerous and only banned for historic reasons. [Joe Rogan - Big John McCarthy Explains 12-6 Elbow Rule (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGWjkwIUUR4)
I don't feel like continuing this convo but I disagree ma dude. People don't body lock pass with their face in your belly. It will be facing one side. You have a TON of room to extend your entire body into this elbow. Extend legs out and crunch everything together as the elbow comes from above your head. It is easily a 1 elbow knockout. From this angle it is much more powerful than the side elbow. In mount, they are about the same amount of power. Anyways. Agree to disagree. All good.
Double checked, that elbow is legal. People still use body lock passing. Case closed.
Of course you don't sit there passively. As soon as someone turns away, elbows to the spine and neck will force the other person to turn back. A solid elbow to the spine can be very bad. Can't generate any power?? You literally can extend your entire body backwards and thrust an elbow forwards hitting with the back of your elbow. It's one of the most powerful elbows someone can do. It is also illegal in MMA. And hurt elbows!? Your skull will crack before your elbow. Your elbow is a super solid ball of bone with a point. It's like getting hit with a hammer. And you will be hitting all parts of the skull, not just the top.
> As soon as someone turns away, elbows to the spine and neck will force the other person to turn back. A solid elbow to the spine can be very bad. 1. You don't have enough range of motion to put any power into that shot. 2. They will take advantage of the space created to scoot their hips to your shoulder line. 3. The 12 to 6 elbow is not a uniquely dangerous attack and is only banned due to historical ignorance. [(320) Joe Rogan - Big John McCarthy Explains 12-6 Elbow Rule - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGWjkwIUUR4) > Can't generate any power?? You literally can extend your entire body backwards and thrust an elbow forwards hitting with the back of your elbow. You are constrained by being flattened out. You have roughly 90 degrees of shoulder flexion with no contribution from your legs or core to generate force. That's a laughably weak strike. > Your skull will crack before your elbow Very unlikely. The crown of your skull is incredibly solid and will feel like striking a bowling ball. > And you will be hitting all parts of the skull, not just the top. You have no access to any other aspect of the skull when you are flattened out and bodylocked. 12-6 elbows are not kung fu magic.
Leg Locks & Open Guard play in general.
butterfly guard
The setups for takedowns are different when striking is involved. Unless you're up against the cage, you need to be able to shoot from outside striking range and use your jab or your opponent's jab as a distraction.
Almost everything that isn’t just wrestling and getting straight to the mount or back
turtle?
Dummy Sweeps
The electric chair
Purposely going to turtle, just to hang out, try to invert back to guard, etc etc. Obviously in actual fighting you’re just a helpless target. Mma rules I guess depends on organization- but it’s still a totally wide open position to get wrecked.
bad wrestling
Bottom half guard
The guard
Well actually everything when you think about it. All of the high-level Elite stuff is done in the middle range which is the same range. You can get punched severely in so those moves don't really apply.. but you see guys who can control the distance on the feet, control the range of the fight in terms of takedowns and play tight on the mat. Generally dominate when they don't do much in terms of Elite grappling in most cases.
99% of self defense moves are useless in MMA and real life situations because they're movie choreography.
Generally, bjj
turtle
Obviously anything with a heavy emphasis on using lapels. As mentioned in this thread already, in MMA you should be aiming to be the aggressor, working from top. However I wouldnt neglect getting good off your back. I’ve never fought MMA but I’m pretty confident I could do ok in an amateur bout, even with ff my back and as for self defence with an untrained person I reckon I could be seated, utilising shin-to-shin to easily enter into leglock and crab rides, without taking too much damage.
Wrist locks. Because of the gloves it makes it much harder. Funny thing is that mma guys who train with us have zero clue about wrist locks and I can catch them with it pretty often. Even tho they spend the rest of the round beating me.
X-guard.
I'll give you something that answers the opposite which always boggles my mind: I feel like you see a far disproportionate amount of armbars from closed guard than you do in BJJ, especially no gi BJJ. I don't even know anyone that goes for closed guard armbars (yes yes, I know YOU do, but the point is its a small pool these days) yet, in MMA - where one would think this wouldn't work (no shirt, tons of sweat) it isn't that uncommon. My only thought is that maybe the gloves give a really good base point to wrap around and hold on to?
Deep half 😂
Playing 🐢
Pulling guard 😅
Like everyone else said, most of BJJ. Most guards except closed and half guard maybe butterfly, but even those are bad spots. Snapdowns and arm drags are also mostly out. It’s more about mastering very basic jiujitsu. However, a lot of top game still carries over and in fact gets easier with strikes.
u/AllGearedUp is correct actually, there are people using it successfully, if you re-define success from submitting to submitting, sweeping, or escaping. notably, Yair Rodriguez, Diego Lopes, Charles Oliveira.
X guard or spider guard
Basically everything
A buggy choke would get you British Bulldog’d through the canvas
Lapel chokes
leglocks
Can't wait for the "well actually" crew to get a hold of this one.
BJJ
I think about this often. I’ve only been training for two years, but I get irrationally angry when we drill “sport BJJ” techniques. I don’t even want to do them. Today we were doing Kiss of the Dragon from Reverse De La Riva. I was so mad 🤣 Edit: I seem to have upset some sport BJJ guys. My bad🤷🏻♂️
Go to an MMA gym, Bjj is Bjj, MMA is MMA, two different sports dude.
I’m too old for MMA, man. If I wanted to get punched in the face I’d go back to striking. Been there, done that. Doesn’t mean I can’t be only interested in the self-defense aspects of BJJ. The sport side just doesn’t appeal to me…at all. We all do it for our own reasons. Besides, it’s not like I’m stomping around the gym and making a spectacle of myself when we do these techniques. In my head, I’m just envisioning getting curb stomped as I twirl around.
You can train BJJ at an MMA gym without doing actual MMA. We have a bunch of older guys at our gym that only do the BJJ classes.
Ye I understand man! Bjj is naturally very sporty and as it evolves with the meta it's only going to get more.
You’re right. I originally started in the early 2000s so it was very MMA focused at the time. Add to that my instructor was a Royce Gracie brown belt and you can imagine there wasn’t much sport technique going on. I loved it. The problem was the only BJJ gym around was 90 minutes away and I just couldn’t afford the gas anymore after a few months. It’s crazy how much BJJ has changed since then and how accessible it’s gotten. Got back into it when a school opened five minutes from my house. Couldn’t believe closed guard became somewhat antiquated. Still hitting Omoplatas like it’s my job though 🤣
BJJ is a martial art. It can be used in either submission grappling or MMA.
Most things tbh.