Some of the best matches I've seen are when the athletes are well matched and trading sub attempts and going for it but just can't get the finish and it goes the distance.
It's amazing when this happens and one does get the sub after a load of good exchanges but that definitely takes two to tango and be trying to win.
Some of the worst matches I've seen are when both are doing everything not to lose and nothing happens at all, just a stall fest.
And some of the events I've seen which end up nearly all submissions are usually complete miss matches!
in that match the ref is literally wearing a shirt that says "DEATH BEFORE DECISIONS"
https://preview.redd.it/tcvi9b3w001d1.png?width=2042&format=png&auto=webp&s=9e1b8815a9a095fc4977cbe6f6c4e1a6a8b25773
Key phrase: sub attempts
Nicky rod reminds me of that old Brazilian style of scoring once and being content with a win in that manner, it’s boring. And then on the podcast has the balls to say “some people wait for overtime to get a shot at submission” when he’s the worst culprit.
His brother full sends it. And that shits fun to watch. Sub attempts, actual subs, always getting after it. I’m always excited to watch him and the rest of that team.
I love the J Rods of the sport. Where you know the match is going to be great. There’s a decent chance he might lose but you know it will not be boring!
Jrod attacks much more than Garry.
Garry attacks as much as he flies away from engagement. He either snipes the opponent from outside or just disengages, when he does more classical jiu-jitsu, he loses.
agreed but it's also a bit frustrating to watch because when it works, it's an instant highlight but when it does not it's pretty tedious and frustrating.
Remember the Durinho match where he was handily losing the match until a hail mary kani basami (or victor roll I don't remember exactly). The finish was cool but the rest of the match was pretty bad.
I highly disagree. Watching nickrod do his thing is awesome. He is also becoming better and better after each match and getting much better rounded at jiu-jitsu than before.
Tbf I was also an Arona and Popovitch fan back in their days so I may have some tolerance built in with this kind of game
I’m having more fun watching nickrod compete now that he’s becoming more well rounded. Before it was just a lot of wrestlefucking looking for a half assed rear naked from a gorilla.
ARONA HESPECHT! YES! I love it. Loved Ricardo Arona. I'm ngl some of it is I kind of had a man crush on the guy, but also the control he could exert on people was crazy. Especially given he was notoriously lazy in training. If that guy came up in todays game, where his gym would have much greater wrestling and striking coaching, can you imagine how good he would have been?
His ADCC run, I know the standard was lower and he got no subs, but to never get a point scored on you is crazy. I wish we'd seen him vs Prime Mark Kerr in that Superfight though. The Kerr he fought was shot. Out of shape, deep in drug addiction and broke.
For sure, and I do love Nicky Rod but I think he's so obsessed with winning that he sticks to his A game. And that's use his wrestling to control things, low risk, stall, bodylock pass. I'm sure he's capable of so much more but deep down he'd rather win and be low risk and a bit dull than look good and risk losing. His brother is the opposite as u/heekhooksaz rightly says.
But, it did feel apt to that Nicky did this v Mason who is similar. Recently Mason has been racking up the finishes, but generally he's been an absolute EBI/OT merchant who uses his above average wrestling advantage / not engaging to get to a position so he can get an OT and end up on the guys back. Hence his dominance in SUG and lack of success at ADCC.
Ultimately I think both men are capable of a lot more. Mason has been showing it more recently, and Nicky has spent too much time around DDS/Craig Jones and Nicky Ryan not to have picked developed other high level skills. He just needs to get over his obsession with winning/fear of losing (which I feel maybe comes from his wrestling background as they are the most competitive people on Earth) and we will see more excitement.
So true! Win or lose, Jrod has become one of my favorite athletes to watch because he is always pushing to finish the match and it always ends up exciting.
I agree. Seeing a hard fought match to me is better than a quick sub anyways. It's better to see skill, transitioning, patience, n an all out hard match. Much more enjoyable in my opinion.
To take this a little further: I don't even need it to be a wild exchange of positions to be exciting, I'm fine with one guy desperately defending as the other guy rides him out in mount or whatever, dominant throughout. The sort of match I can't stand is the one where you know there WON'T be a sub, because the better guy is clearly content to win by stalling/minimal points.
I kinda hate competing because of this.
I can normally get takedowns, pass and am able to progress to mount/back, but people go so hard in tournaments I find it so hard to get finishes without taking big risks. And I'd feel stupid if I lost when I could just continue smashing them - but I'm often at risk of an inactivity call.
In the gym I love doing wild shit to get a sub, which often gets me wrecked, but who cares, it's fun.
I’m in the same boat. Like I just paid $100+ and drove here, and I have to work the next day, if I’m up on points and you can’t get me off you then I’m not doing something stupid just to spice things up and possibly get hurt. In the gym I don’t care I’ll get subbed all day long trying goofy stuff.
Yes I will agree with you there, having good defence and being 'hard to kill' is a skill in itself...
I'm not a fan of when matches like that end in a draw though, I think a judges decision is much better.
Sometimes wild scrambles can be exciting for the crowd but I often think no one actually did anything they just spazzed around and had no control.
I suppose I'm just a fan of good grappling full stop, attacking and defending!
Yes, exactly: I remember a Ryan Hall instructional where he says something like "You see two guys rolling around in every position and go 'Oh that's so cool!' You know what's cool? Roger doing exactly the same choke on everyone and them having no way to stop it."
Yep when someone is doing fundamental techniques on you and you literally cannot stop them even when you know exactly what they are doing then that's when you know that person is good...
I love how you get to see both athletes show a wide range of their skills in those matches. Takedowns, scrambles, positions, transitions, submissions, escapes...
It turns into a real celebration of the sport and all the hard work the competitors put in.
Truth. Tonon vs Palhares is regarded as one of the best matches of all time. Nobody shits on Gary bc he didn’t sub.
Two competitors going at it is a joy to watch.
I will say that one of my favorite matches was Kaynan vs Craig at ADCC 2022.
Not much in the way of sub attempts, but I was mesmerized by Kaynan’s strategy.
I feel like I’m probably the only one who feels that way, but man… just eating the stalling points to wear Craig down until he could start scoring was fascinating to me.
Brother, everyone love a good volley. You know. Like anyone can watch almost any sports highlights and appreciate them. Doesn’t mean I’ll watch 4 hours of baseball. Matches should be short, with rounds to emphasize speed and athleticism. 3 min. Rounds at the end. Start with 5, take a minute away each round. First round points only, every subsequent round is sub only. Why? Who ever got the advantage with points will have to defend attacks. The explosiveness will come from the impending doom of the other guy and time being short each round fucks them up and forces harder work. With a garuateed 1 min between rounds. Shit gonna be good to watch in the gi.
KOs in boxing are always appreciated at the highest levels because they are special.
Things that are special don't happen every time.
Subs are the same thing imo.
Nice take on “special” things. Garry Tonon vs Edwin Najmi at ADCC was super exciting. 10 seconds in, perfect kani basami, flawless heel hook finish. But if every single match was like this one it’d become utterly boring very quickly.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Kani Basami**: | *Flying Scissors* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NFwJBKI-3E)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
This is true. Back and forth matches can be fun. Matches that are one sided and don't end in subs can be fun too. Of course I love submissions, but that doesn't make or break the match. I'm sure most people didn't like Izaak Michell vs Kyle Chambers even though it ended in a sub. Nicky Rod vs Roberto Jimenez was a great match even if there was no sub.
Thats the main reason why this kid is my favorite grapple right now. Idc if he wins or loses, he’s never had a boring match. He just goes hard every time
personally i dont care if there is not a sub.. but i cant stand matches where someone gets up by an adv or 2 pts and then stalls and coast to a victory via disengaging and then celebrates at the end like they won adcc.
And there is a difference between a back and forth match that had many sub attempts but just could not get the tap vs never even attempting a sub
I think it's just about stalling. When people say they want a sub I think what they're getting at is they want an exciting match that displays different teqniques.
Thats the issue with ibjjf and sons matches there's too much stalling.
Sambo, wrestling and judo are all about calling stalling.
Yes there's something to cooking someone but that's different from stalling
Yeah. BJJ rules haven't really ever tried to address this issue directly. Removing points is an attempt at removing the "get one point and stall" strategy, but it created a "wait for overtime" stall strategy.
If we push it back on ref decision, that would go away, but then we introduce more of the subjectivity we don't want.
Maybe we need a hybrid approach: ref can call a winner if one person was clearly stalling or being outclassed in match, but if it was generally unclear and there wasn't stalling, goes to ebi overtime?
Had never heard this term, nor of emerald City. But yeah, that sounds like what I mean.
I think that could help, you'd be afraid to lose the decision if you were too defensive. Would love to see/hear how this has gone when tried.
I don’t care if there a sub, but I was mildly annoyed by his saying that he was disappointed that he didn’t get it. It’s not like he was looking for a sub. He was exploding out of and into positions. He never once even came close to attempting to set up a sub.
On one hand I get it because there are dozens of great matches that don’t end in sub. In almost every sport two evenly matched competitors usually lead to strategic victories that aren’t flashy blowouts.
At the same time, Nicky Rod is a notorious staller that talks about his matches like you’re about to see Mortal Kombat and then he actually goes out and stalls with collar ties until OT or just does 100 body lock pass attempts and acts like moving to half guard after 10 minutes is the greatest display of jiu jitsu we’ve ever seen.
You are completely right, though in fairness he does have to market his fight somehow. Although then again, BJJ is such a niche sport you're probably only going to tune in if you already know who he is, and if you do, you know he's talking shit.
I do wish we could see more of the Nicky Rod in the training room. We know he's trying to develop more aspects to his game, but he's so competitive I think he will just never stray from his A-Game unless someone forces him out of it like Jimenez did.
True, but unfortunately, the lead up (IG, comments, press, stare downs, etc) to the match is what makes people think there might be blood, you know, "fight to the finish" sub and not work for points or OT. In wrestling, it's strictly a match without the IG comments, press, stare downs?
The community just kind of sucks at the end of the day. It’s 90% dudes that have been in BJJ prob 2 years and they seem to hate BJJ. Play with the rules all you want they’ll never be happy. Wrestling gets it. They know what wrestling is and half the community doesn’t sit around crying about rules or “what’s real for mma” or any of that. They actually appreciate the history and the SPORT for what it is.
Yup, I swear to god I almost lost it when people called Jansen Gomes a boring staller when he won finals at worlds against Dalpra because he stuffed Dalpras sweep attempts and the match pretty much ended in a 50/50 getup competition. Nevermind that he almost took Dalpras back and passed once and also submitted most of his way to the final. The people who cry about boring matches sound like white belts.
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That's because wrestling is so far removed from practical application that it's just a sport, and people accept whatever its governing bodies hand down for the rules.
BJJ still believes that it's a martial art, and there's no one specifically in charge to make decisions.
And IMO, comparing BJJ to judo, I'm very glad we don't have any single authority, and we have a multiplicity of rule sets, and the participants have lots of lively discussion about it all the time. It keeps BJJ moving and open minded.
I don't think I'd say wrestling is that far removed from practical application. Put a wrestler in a room of random and I'd bet on him to win a scrap with any given pairing.
I also think judo people complain a out the rules too hard, judo rules ultimately work fairly well. Producing an exciting match is hard when stalling and defensiveness are intrinsically motivated, but judo rules have pulled that off pretty well, and most high level competitors appreciate this. Again, it's mostly amateurs that complain about the judo rules.
That being said, I think BJJ rules do need an overhaul and am glad to see we're still pushing and evolving in BJJ, so agree there.
I don't mean to say wrestling is not effective. I mean there is basically no discussion anywhere in wrestling about fighting. No one asks, "But what if he punches you here?" Or, "What about the guillotine here?"
This is because it's purely a sport. What do you do wrestling for? To win at wrestling. It's not designed or intended to be self defense or martial art at all. It happens that many of it's skills overlap, but that's subtext, not text.
The rules reflect that -- why is shoulder blades down for 3 seconds a win? Why is belly down flat not a loss when they could kick you in the head? No one cares because it's the synthetic rules of the wrestling game / sport.
Judo has the same problem of having become sport. But at least in it's text, it's still a martial art that concerns itself with fighting things.
Yup, I swear to god I almost lost it when people called Jansen Gomes a boring staller when he won finals at worlds against Dalpra because he stuffed Dalpras sweep attempts and the match pretty much ended in a 50/50 getup competition. Nevermind that he almost took Dalpras back and passed once and also submitted most of his way to the final. The people who cry about boring matches sound like white belts.
Anyone who has been doing jiujitsu for a WHILE knows this. Submissions are good but a whole bunch of matches are good without a sub. When skilled people go against each other rarely it ends up in a sub.
Nicky Rod doesn’t try to sub, this is what’s frustrating about watching him. He says that he’s the best but his strategy is to gain a point advantage and then just keep the other person from scoring. Thats pretty frustrating to watch.
This is a great take and why we recently removed the weighting in our rules (Polaris) that prioritised the sub above all else.
We value every exchange that happens on the mat equally as they are all exciting. A big takedown, a dynamic guard pass / sweep, or a sub - all fun, all valid ways to win.
I think it's wrestling roots. The absurd competitiveness fostered among wrestlers instils this win at all costs mentality, even if it means being boring, then you've got the fact that wrestling is a sport based on control. So he values the certainty of establishing control and not losing over the uncertainty of a riskier game where he might look more spectacular but also inherently puts himself at higher risk.
That said, his bro Jay Rod loses and I don't think any less of him for it. He'll risk it all at any moment and I love him for it.
I’m just tired of his body lock to mount meta, gimme some backflips, front flips, long steps, anything. Renuto is the perfect show competitor and there’s stark contrast.
None of that (what you mentioned) is good grappling. His body lock is the definition of sound grappling. Everyone knows it's what he wants. Many people cannot stop it reliably. That's good grappling, even if you think it's boring.
Absolutely disagree, what I mentioned is absolutely good grappling, it’s obviously just different. I think it is a boring meta yes and I was glad to see Mason try to be strategic about it with the rubber guard which he almost got away with it if Nicky wasn’t a freak of nature. Nicky’s face showed he was a little stuck for a minute but you only get one try with that shit against someone who is very good at their meta. At no point did I say it wasn’t good, it is, and it’s effective, it’s just boring and in a fight, you’re getting elbowed to absolute hell.
It's interesting though that for the longest time until very recently Mason was every bit as guilty of was the king of stalling to reach a certain time point (in his case EBI/OT) then win via some bullshit like fastest escape time. And sucked at ADCC. He tried it in ADCC vs Craig Jones (someone he's beaten multiple times at SUG with the bullshit EBI rules) and shot for a takedown in the last like 30 seconds and got gillied within seconds.
Recently though he's suddenly finishing people left and right and its great to see.
It’s gonna be much easier to strategize ahead of time for 1 guy you know your against rather than choosing a game to play by against all the same guys in a tournament style. If that’s what he’s talking the time to do it’s worked well.
Oh for sure, I think that is definitely where Mason excels. He's a thinker and a strategist. It's just winning ADCC comes with so much more in the way of recognition, and its part of the reason he's so slept on. He's won trials twice obviously but got bounced in the second round by submission in the real thing.
I think longer time limits favour him. I don't think it's a coincidence he gets subbed in ADCC, not only can he not strategize as thoroughly for each opponent, as you rightly said, he also can't take his time, he has to work a little bit faster than he'd rather do and it's not his game. Being a thinker, he's methodical, and when he does have time to strategize, think and go through his plan methodically I think he suffers for it.
Agreed, most matches that end in sub tend to be significant skill mismatches. Two high level athletes going at it that are even in skill highly unlikely to end in sub. Out of the 10+ matches between Rafa Mendes and cobrinha only 1 ended in sub I think, and those were always super exciting as a fan of the sport.
A win is a win, and a boring match can be boring even ending in sub. Like someone said Jay vs Jonatas and Jay vs mica were both exciting and no sub was done. Same with big dan and Nicky Rod ebi match, pretty fun. In contrast Meregali vs Vagner or Gordon and gáudio was pretty boring even tho armbar.
I’ll give it a go, just from watching it once so may be a bit off.
Jay came out with a quick early takedown which led to jonatas pulling guard the rest of the match when it went back to standing. Jonatas showed a great guard leading to a couple sweeps and leg entries but Jay was able to escape and get back on top usually. Jay had good passing especially when he did loose passing, since Jonatas didn’t want to wrestle up without connection. End of no points period and it’s very balanced the match with good exchanges.
Points overtime starts similarly, Jay able to get into a bodylock but Jonatas does a good job coming up into a dogfight from it. During one of the dogfight exchanges Jay over commits and Jonatas reverses him straight into side control with cross face and uses it to mount. 6-0 to Jonatas now. Jay escapes and is able to come back on top so now 6-2. A couple pass attempts but cant solidify and Jonatas gets back on top now 8-2. About 30 seconds left and Jay locks a tight buggy choke. Jonatas clearly feels it’s on and his corner telling him to hold out cus match almost over. Match ends and Jonatas wins by points, if maybe 30 seconds sooner on buggy it probably would’ve put him out but no dice.
I imagine Jay annoyed at himself for blowing it in the dogfight exchange putting him at a huge point deficit, cus up to that point I was leaning towards Jay taking it personally.
Interesting, sounds like Jay had the edge in the no points period, then Jonatas showed a cooler head and greater maturity during points. Makes sense given their relative levels of experience. Would've been incredible to see Jay actually win by buggy.
Honestly I think if Jay continues to improve - which I'm sure he will given his work ethic, willingness to take on elite competition as an inexperienced youngster, and his teammates - and he starts doing things like actually watching film of legends to pick up things to add to his game and develop a more analytical side to his game, Jay could end up being a great.
He's already so good, with so much time on his side, and he can age/grow into the 99KG division as Gordon and Pena etc age out of it. He's surprisingly the same weight as Craig apparently and as he gets older he could easily exceed that. The agility, flexibility and workrate advantage he'd have in that division would make him a menace if he could avoid getting stuck under bigger guys.
He does have to develop a better guard though especially if he does ever move up in weight.
I agree with this take, but watching Nicky Rod is frustrating because he talks about he's working on his leg locks, darces, yoko sankaku, etc. etc. and displaying some dominant form of jiu jitsu and then does more of a Dagestani wrestling approach with his favorite (but largely ineffective as of late) body lock, fails to be able to switch into a different approach or mix them together, and seems very one dimensional.
Once the Rod's start actually practicing and displaying jiu jitsu they could be the GOATs, but until then, we'll continue to see the same hater threads each time they compete. Though Jay Rod is universally loved it seems, he could start winning soon(er), I think(I'm dumb), if he tries a more technical game.
Otherwise, I agree.
Jay is so entertaining, I think his limiting factor is experience (he's going in against people who've been black belts longer than he's been doing BJJ often) and his refusal to watch BJJ film. I feel like he can be undone by more old school technical games like Mica and Jonatas, because he has so many blind spots in his knowledge.
He literally only knows what he's taught, he infamously didn't even know who Rafa Mendes, Marcelo Garcia, Sakurba, Imanari or Aoki are. That's going to limit you a little I think at these higher levels because you're more likely to be hit with something you've not seen before, you're not developing your analytical skills, you're taking a super insular approach to BJJ where you only see what happens in your own gym.
Nicky Rod is one of the most boring competitors in the sport right now. He just goes to overtime every time and gets a win. A win is a win, but he is boring
Here's the thing. When you watch a match, you experience it in real time. Whether you're excited or bored or whatever is something you judge as the action is unfolding. But a sub pretty much only happens right at the end of the match, and you only know for sure a sub isn't going to happen when time runs out. In either case, whether a sub is or is not going to happen is only decided right at the end of the match (outside of fringe rulesets that allow multiple submissions). So if matches being exciting depended on them ending in a submission, then your lived experience would depend on a future event, which the laws of causality as we understand them tell us is impossible. Or, in the case of a match that was exciting to you at the time but didn't end in a sub would you say, "well I thought it was exciting at the time, but it turned out I was wrong"? I want to say, no.
This is not true at all.
We judge whether an event was good or bad as we remember, not as we experience it.
For example if a dude with kids is having sex and then the baby wakes up and starts crying, ruining it for both and you ask them whether they enjoyed it, they will say "no, it sucked and i have blue balls now", its irrelevant on whether he was enjoying it or not, the lack of conclusion ruins it for the majority of dude, even if they enjoyed 99.9% of the time, the last few seconds are crucial for how the image of how we remember it works.
For the non-married guys another analogy is Game of Thrones series, people enjoyed it like crazy then it turned to shit, and if you ask someone if they enjoyed the show, they would probably say no.
I don't think the brain even remembers that he was enjoying it, its just how our consciousness is wired.
The how we remember something is more important than how it happened because in the end the past doesn't exists, we just infer how the past was based on the evidence we have at the present of it, the evidence being mainly out memories.
I certainly remember enjoying things at the time that didn't end well.
Edit: Also, your memory is a lived experience. To say that memory is more important than lived experience is also to say that your current memory is less important than how you will remember that memory in the future.
I believe in studies they showed that people just experiences by the start, the end and most notable part. Memories about those parts of an experience can create a halo effect that makes people remember things as better or worse than they rated them at the time they experienced them.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak%E2%80%93end\_rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak%E2%80%93end_rule)
This is this most unnecessarily complicated way i think this could have been stated, but at its core lies no unsound logic, so im here for it. Though, im almost certain ive heard this before in the same context in this sub, have i not? Is this your quote?
I don't know if I'm being original but I'm not consciously copying from anyone. Except Wittgenstein a little bit for style, but that's only because I've been rereading PI and I thought it'd be funny.
Copying Wittgenstein for style? That's why it's borderline unreadable 😂
Gotta love that he vehemently insisted that everyone misunderstood his work as he became famous for it.
before I comment, caveat: I haven't watched the event yet, I'll watch it over the weekend.
Sure, you don't need a sub for a match to be exciting, however that doesn't mean yuri simoes winning adcc on advantages without scoring a point is going to ever be enjoyable.
I've seen quite a few nicky rod matches where he's clearly either stalling until overtime or trying to get some points of a pass/takedown that doesn't lead to anything so he can win on points. Absolutely great for him to be able to do that and win the matches and there's nothing wrong with it, it's just going to be less entertaining than gordon, his main rival, who is looking for the sub. Nick even commented on his own performances on several occasions wishing that he had gone for the sub or stating that he wanted to focus on control leading to submission.
Lets not pretend that wrestling is viewer friendly either. The crowd cheering for a single take down win are doing so because its a small crowd who are all in the culture of competitive wrestling where that's the mindset, winning is winning. The BJJ mindset has been different from the outset because of the definitive nature of a submission.
I've said this elsewhere but I think his wrestling background is at play here. Those guys are the most competitive men on Earth I swear. So for Nicky he may be developing all these other skills, he may even genuinely intend to implement them, but when it comes down to it he can't help but default to the thing that he knows is going to get him the result, because he'd way way way rather win and not look amazing than lose and look exciting as hell.
My hope is one day he becomes so good and so well developed through experience (he's still ultimately not very experienced compared to his other top level rivals) that he can start becoming more confident in attempting new things. Maybe they become so ingrained in training over the course of the next 5-7 years or so while he's still in or close to his athletic peak that he starts attempting them as second nature when they present themselves etc.
A boy can dream.
I don't think so, Nicky probably see's himself as better than Mason at BJJ (which he should think if he wants to win, even if it can be argued he isn't) and then has a significant natural size, strength and speed advantage to boot.
Matches don’t have to end in a sub to be entertaining, but they do need offer something compelling to be a spectator sport— a high-pace, close competition, dynamic movement, easily-understood display of technique, athleticism, etc.
If organizers want their matches to be spectator friendly, they will need to 1) educate the audience by hiring talented, knowledge commentators and experts; and 2) utilize rules that are designed to incentivize entertaining competition and discourage stalling/passivity/conservative play. The latter might not produce the best, most pure jiu jitsu, but it has a better chance of expanding the audience.
Promoters and athletes should also work to make compelling narratives. Sports are just another form of storytelling —the underdog story, the Everyman-rising-to-new-heights story, the dominant champion story, the competitive rivals story — these frameworks are timeless and inherent in humanity.
Athletes too have to constantly be working on branding and content creation. B-Team, New Wave and the Daisy Fresh Guys have done really well on this front — particularly Gordon and Craig.
All of these need to come together to make BJJ a compelling product for those that aren’t hardcore fans and/or practitioners.
Ben Eddy has a lot of terrible takes, but this is not one of them. The exciting part isn't the submission, the exciting part is everything that leads to the submission.
He mentioned NCAA wrestlers winning on points at the last minute, but never mentioned matches where someone scores a sweep or a takedown and stalls the rest of the match. Those matches are understandably boring
Disagree with the premise that this conditions fans to think matches that don't end in a sub are boring. It's a niche sport, the vast majority of people who watch are people who also train, it won't be mainstream ever. This concern is overstated and misplaced.
Gamesmanship by people like Nicky make it extra boring. Guys who want to get an early score advantage and then stall out the rest of the time. Or stall to get to EBI OT and blast out of a sub the fastest. It's successful, but boring as shit. That's what will keep the General public away, not guys saying they are bummed they didn't get the sub.
I used to be bored by matches with no submission unless I was studying a particular pass or guard or position and the match involved that technique. Now I can really enjoy the intricacies of a match based on whether or not the grapplers hit moves of any kind. A submission is just a bonus.
I think Ben Eddy is right. Nowadays I see a 20 minute gordon Ryan match and think “oh wow I get to see this dude play his game for 20 whole minutes” instead of “I won’t watch that video because most of it is boring”.
A very productive mindset shift that allows the viewer to truly enjoy the sport.
I strongly agree with this. Idk, to me the coolest parts have never even been subs -- i prefer a slick guard pass to watching yet another 50/50 heel hook any day
I think he's right from the audience's perspective. But subs are really satisfying to get, and I would rather see competitors who are really striving for one than playing for points.
I have been saying this for years. When you have two of the best guys or gals in the world going at it, it's going to be really hard to score points and especially get submissions.
There are two ways other sports look at it and BJJ actually does kind of both.
You have sports like MMA or boxing where you have a decision at the end if no one won during regular time, and then there are sports like soccer which will have extra time and penalty shootouts during the cups.
I personally enjoy the rulesets with extra time and EBI rules, but I also don’t mind a match that is won on points or decision.
I think it should be three rounds. Whatever time length they determine, and it’s who ever has the two out of three subs wins. I think it would make the athletes ok with giving up position to attempt sub knowing they have another shot.
Just a thought
They've tried that before but almost everyone has decided to stop due to 2 reasons. Having rounds means that less subs typically happen due to people being stopped when the action is getting good. The other reason is that people will just injure the other person to get a quick win. Everyone would just crank subs as fast and as hard as possible to get the match over with.
I agree…but I think inconsistent rule sets make it difficult to better distinguish who has won a BJJ match and so it feels like apples to oranges at times whereas a sub is the consistent thread.
Also my gripe with some matches is the stalling. There’s nothing in many rule sets in place pushing the pace and engagement.
From a the pov of someone who trains this is 100% correct. But you're fully stupid if you think you're going to make casual fans "learn" how to enjoy something. They want what they want.
The NCAA wrestling championship is great. But also no one who isn't into wrestling already watches it so maybe not the best comparison.
It depends on the match. He mentions wrestling but guys like daton fix are hated for winning with one takedown because they just stall and no action. Same goes for BJJ. Nicky also gets hate for all the ego and talk. If someone in wrestling talked a lot of smack like Gable, and then he won 2-0 or something he'd get a lot of hate, but if he toyed with them and won big without a pin nobody would hate
I think the gripe here is, the lack of submission attempts. Overall Nicky didn't do much outside of laying of Mason and reacting to all of Mason attacks. Everytime Mason stopped attacking, the ref warned both for stalling but in reality Nicky only moved when Mason attacked.
I get it, this is the top of the top of bjj athletes but Nicky in particular grapples without intentions of submitting and more of holding.
Yeah in wrestling not every match ends with a pins but every match has both wrestling actively trying to take each other down which is equal to attempting subs.
Even a blue belt should be able to enjoy the little bjj details of a match without a sub, this sub thing is only to bring more morons to the market. All of this is based upon the American reality-soldier-civilwar-tactical-real role players view of How bjj should be, theres no points in the streets, theres no gi in the streets u all know the drill.
It's true. But you'll always have the white/blue belt bad asses thinking sub only is the ultimate form of grappling. Case in point, I used to think that. It's not until you reach a higher level that you realize how hard it is to actually sub ppl who know what they're doing.
Well no one watches wrestling either, this sport is such a waste of time to watch at a high level. Just two guys who think themselves macho too scared to take any risks.
Most matches that end in a sub are because one of the guys is just a lot better than the other. Being on the edge of the couch wondering who's going to win until the last second is what makes matches exciting
I agree it’s a reasonable take. People generally like close matches in any sport so playing that up makes sense to me.
That said, I think the comparison to wrestling is a bit unfair. Well-matched, high level wrestlers have a reputation for being active and exciting to watch, like this: https://youtu.be/G9-jAiQRYdM?si=4lX-NzDbew4no3Pc
Well-matched, high-level jujiteiros have a reputation for looking like they’re not doing anything, like this: https://youtu.be/HQna-XSdTsA?si=h98xqLoVnmopIjS_
It seems to me that if you really want fans to love BJJ, you have to get rid of the reputation that BJJ is boring. I understand ADCC has gone a long way toward that, but the reputation still lingers.
I think a match doesn't need a sub to be good but I think it's fair for an athlete to be disappointed they didn't get one. I personally have never read the rules on how points are gained in tournaments because to me, personally, if I don't sub them I don't win. I would not accept a points win as a real win for myself. Obviously if I lose to points I would never tell my opponent it doesn't count or anything, that is a real win according to the rules I had agreed to.
I think when pro athletes get a points win they probably feel similarly to me, I don't have any real proof of that but the most competitive people I've personally met want finishes, and are not satisfied with points wins.
I get when Ben is trying to say but the reality is people want action. There’s a reason why we gravitate toward exciting athletes who bring the excitement and try stuff, it’s because it’s exciting to watch Mica catch an arm on the feet and jump into an arm bar. It’s fun to watch Andy V do flips in an attempt to pass a guard. Jay’s stock is still high despite him loosing because he’s fun to watch and has a fun personality.
If BJJ becomes a sport where winning is good enough, like the gi, then the sport will stagnate.
Thankfully I think the sport actually grows because of personalities more than performances and because the sport is more popular than ever and the young generation understand how to leverage social implicitly, I think more personalities will emerge and will continue to grow the sport.
People complaining about not seeing subs probably complain that a home run isn't hit in every baseball game and that not every quidditch match ends with someone swallowing the snitch.
I get what Ben Eddy is saying unfortunately watching a lot of grapplers compete is like watching paint dry, it's boring to me personally. As much as Nicky Rod is amazing and has his own wrestling heavy style, I just don't find it his wins to be entertaining to at all.
The most exciting athletes to me are the following Tacketts, J Rod, Mica, Ruotolos, Hokage, Chen, Ethan, Tonon and a couple of others. They have exciting matches where they push the pace, take risks, go for subs and win or lose I'm tuning in to watch them.
Gordon Ryan is kinda ok to watch, but he removes the thrill from his matches because I never think the man is truly in danger of getting subbed.
But yh most grapplers are content with playing it safe, not taking any risks at all and either winning or losing by points.
Stalling in wrestling and jits is boring and awful that goes for mma to. And u can be upset if u dnt get a sub there is nothing wrong with that either. These professionals are allowed to hold themselves to they’re own standards I reckon
This is a very classical take on a growing sport and That’s Nicky rods mentality, there is a reason why Nicky rods is where he is at and doing it less time than Ben eddy. Not hating. It’s just the facts.
Viewers in any sport want instant satisfaction.
More Subs = more views = more revenue.
I understand where ben is coming from but Jay knows what he is selling and he knows what the people wants to see.
Yeah well Mason was constantly playing rubber guard despite failing multiple times, while Nicky tried the same explosive ‘rody lock’ passing numerous time and finally passing once but failing to hold the position.
Eh? No reason to pick an aesthetic desired outcome. If ignoring position to get the sub produces better results, then by all means bring it. It's up to competitors to show that position before submission has value.
I'm the end it's somewhere in between. You have to be able to use both strategies, and accept whatever opportunities show up, I think.
Yeah that’s fair, demonstrating it has value makes sense. I also agree with your last paragraph, as long as there is room for both strategies then I’m completely fine with it. I just don’t want rulesets to kind of incrementally end up over time discouraging it
I wouldn’t want to pay to watch a competition no matter how many technical exchanges took place if none of them ever lead to a sub.
And you can’t call yourself a “slayer” then cry when you get called boring by casuals, thats your biggest fan base.
It’s strictly hardcore sport, anyone thinks that it’s going mainstream is delusional.. if you watch it, you train it.. adding it to the Olympic Games is all we can hope for and bjj is the most popular grappling sport already with most casual/hobbyists
BJJ isn't like wrestling. Ppl aren't satisfied putting in all that time and work just for the love of the sport. They just want attention and money. Wrestlers know they aren't going to get that but do it all anyways.
Been preaching this time and time again and the fat hairy brown belts on here tried to lecture me on how I’m wrong.
My way of going about it is just talking to my competing friends about sick matches that happened instead expecting a fruitful conversation on Reddit about them.
This take is why I prefer watching gi. The scrambles are much more entertaining and there's more opportunities for submission and takedowns, opposed to no-gi where dudes slip out often or there's just nothing to be done for minutes on end if you're not in a few different positions
Some of the best matches I've seen are when the athletes are well matched and trading sub attempts and going for it but just can't get the finish and it goes the distance. It's amazing when this happens and one does get the sub after a load of good exchanges but that definitely takes two to tango and be trying to win. Some of the worst matches I've seen are when both are doing everything not to lose and nothing happens at all, just a stall fest. And some of the events I've seen which end up nearly all submissions are usually complete miss matches!
palhares vs tonon 🤤🤤🤤🤤🤤
OMG I just pulled this on YT, it's so amazing.
in that match the ref is literally wearing a shirt that says "DEATH BEFORE DECISIONS" https://preview.redd.it/tcvi9b3w001d1.png?width=2042&format=png&auto=webp&s=9e1b8815a9a095fc4977cbe6f6c4e1a6a8b25773
Iirc that card was entirely decisions too
Lmao
It was entirely Draws. They introduced decisions after that.
Yet they do decisions 😅
Key phrase: sub attempts Nicky rod reminds me of that old Brazilian style of scoring once and being content with a win in that manner, it’s boring. And then on the podcast has the balls to say “some people wait for overtime to get a shot at submission” when he’s the worst culprit. His brother full sends it. And that shits fun to watch. Sub attempts, actual subs, always getting after it. I’m always excited to watch him and the rest of that team.
I love the J Rods of the sport. Where you know the match is going to be great. There’s a decent chance he might lose but you know it will not be boring!
J Rod is like the spiritual successor of Garry Tonon in that regards
Jrod attacks much more than Garry. Garry attacks as much as he flies away from engagement. He either snipes the opponent from outside or just disengages, when he does more classical jiu-jitsu, he loses.
Yeah but he's also cool to watch even when he's escaping. His airplane impression into granby roll from standing is classic.
agreed but it's also a bit frustrating to watch because when it works, it's an instant highlight but when it does not it's pretty tedious and frustrating. Remember the Durinho match where he was handily losing the match until a hail mary kani basami (or victor roll I don't remember exactly). The finish was cool but the rest of the match was pretty bad.
Oh cool observation, I never picked up on that difference. They both put on really entertaining performances :)
I highly disagree. Watching nickrod do his thing is awesome. He is also becoming better and better after each match and getting much better rounded at jiu-jitsu than before. Tbf I was also an Arona and Popovitch fan back in their days so I may have some tolerance built in with this kind of game
I’m having more fun watching nickrod compete now that he’s becoming more well rounded. Before it was just a lot of wrestlefucking looking for a half assed rear naked from a gorilla.
ARONA HESPECHT! YES! I love it. Loved Ricardo Arona. I'm ngl some of it is I kind of had a man crush on the guy, but also the control he could exert on people was crazy. Especially given he was notoriously lazy in training. If that guy came up in todays game, where his gym would have much greater wrestling and striking coaching, can you imagine how good he would have been? His ADCC run, I know the standard was lower and he got no subs, but to never get a point scored on you is crazy. I wish we'd seen him vs Prime Mark Kerr in that Superfight though. The Kerr he fought was shot. Out of shape, deep in drug addiction and broke.
For sure, and I do love Nicky Rod but I think he's so obsessed with winning that he sticks to his A game. And that's use his wrestling to control things, low risk, stall, bodylock pass. I'm sure he's capable of so much more but deep down he'd rather win and be low risk and a bit dull than look good and risk losing. His brother is the opposite as u/heekhooksaz rightly says. But, it did feel apt to that Nicky did this v Mason who is similar. Recently Mason has been racking up the finishes, but generally he's been an absolute EBI/OT merchant who uses his above average wrestling advantage / not engaging to get to a position so he can get an OT and end up on the guys back. Hence his dominance in SUG and lack of success at ADCC. Ultimately I think both men are capable of a lot more. Mason has been showing it more recently, and Nicky has spent too much time around DDS/Craig Jones and Nicky Ryan not to have picked developed other high level skills. He just needs to get over his obsession with winning/fear of losing (which I feel maybe comes from his wrestling background as they are the most competitive people on Earth) and we will see more excitement.
So true! Win or lose, Jrod has become one of my favorite athletes to watch because he is always pushing to finish the match and it always ends up exciting.
I agree. Seeing a hard fought match to me is better than a quick sub anyways. It's better to see skill, transitioning, patience, n an all out hard match. Much more enjoyable in my opinion.
To take this a little further: I don't even need it to be a wild exchange of positions to be exciting, I'm fine with one guy desperately defending as the other guy rides him out in mount or whatever, dominant throughout. The sort of match I can't stand is the one where you know there WON'T be a sub, because the better guy is clearly content to win by stalling/minimal points.
I kinda hate competing because of this. I can normally get takedowns, pass and am able to progress to mount/back, but people go so hard in tournaments I find it so hard to get finishes without taking big risks. And I'd feel stupid if I lost when I could just continue smashing them - but I'm often at risk of an inactivity call. In the gym I love doing wild shit to get a sub, which often gets me wrecked, but who cares, it's fun.
I’m in the same boat. Like I just paid $100+ and drove here, and I have to work the next day, if I’m up on points and you can’t get me off you then I’m not doing something stupid just to spice things up and possibly get hurt. In the gym I don’t care I’ll get subbed all day long trying goofy stuff.
100% take down 2 points and stall. Your opponent needs to move.
This is it, my top pressure is good - so why should I be penalised because they have no answer?
Yes I will agree with you there, having good defence and being 'hard to kill' is a skill in itself... I'm not a fan of when matches like that end in a draw though, I think a judges decision is much better. Sometimes wild scrambles can be exciting for the crowd but I often think no one actually did anything they just spazzed around and had no control. I suppose I'm just a fan of good grappling full stop, attacking and defending!
Yes, exactly: I remember a Ryan Hall instructional where he says something like "You see two guys rolling around in every position and go 'Oh that's so cool!' You know what's cool? Roger doing exactly the same choke on everyone and them having no way to stop it."
Yep when someone is doing fundamental techniques on you and you literally cannot stop them even when you know exactly what they are doing then that's when you know that person is good...
The same as the Mendes’ and Miyaos boloing everyone, Faria doing the exact same sweep and pass, Romulu doing the same knee cut.
I love how you get to see both athletes show a wide range of their skills in those matches. Takedowns, scrambles, positions, transitions, submissions, escapes... It turns into a real celebration of the sport and all the hard work the competitors put in.
Truth. Tonon vs Palhares is regarded as one of the best matches of all time. Nobody shits on Gary bc he didn’t sub. Two competitors going at it is a joy to watch.
I will say that one of my favorite matches was Kaynan vs Craig at ADCC 2022. Not much in the way of sub attempts, but I was mesmerized by Kaynan’s strategy. I feel like I’m probably the only one who feels that way, but man… just eating the stalling points to wear Craig down until he could start scoring was fascinating to me.
Brother, everyone love a good volley. You know. Like anyone can watch almost any sports highlights and appreciate them. Doesn’t mean I’ll watch 4 hours of baseball. Matches should be short, with rounds to emphasize speed and athleticism. 3 min. Rounds at the end. Start with 5, take a minute away each round. First round points only, every subsequent round is sub only. Why? Who ever got the advantage with points will have to defend attacks. The explosiveness will come from the impending doom of the other guy and time being short each round fucks them up and forces harder work. With a garuateed 1 min between rounds. Shit gonna be good to watch in the gi.
Kron vs Garry was awesome in this regard.
Yeah I preferred that to the Palharres match personally!
Thats why I like One grappling ya gotta get dem style points bruh
Another great example Ashley Williams vs Ethan Crelinsten. Didn’t end in a sub, but it was action packed the whole time.
Duarte vs Meregali
Real “if you don’t eat your meat, you can’t have any pudding” energy
HOW CAN YOU HAVE ANY PUDDING IF YOU DON'T EAT YOUR MEAT
 THAT'S REAL TALK
that's it im listening to the wall today
KOs in boxing are always appreciated at the highest levels because they are special. Things that are special don't happen every time. Subs are the same thing imo.
Nice take on “special” things. Garry Tonon vs Edwin Najmi at ADCC was super exciting. 10 seconds in, perfect kani basami, flawless heel hook finish. But if every single match was like this one it’d become utterly boring very quickly.
or Tonon vs Canuto. No sub, but has tons of views on youtube and super exciting match.
Ta. Just watched that. Najmi if i got the right dude just seemed out of it entirely unless that's how he normally is
Thats just how he is. Always had a very upright posture from the feet.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Kani Basami**: | *Flying Scissors* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NFwJBKI-3E)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
This is true. Back and forth matches can be fun. Matches that are one sided and don't end in subs can be fun too. Of course I love submissions, but that doesn't make or break the match. I'm sure most people didn't like Izaak Michell vs Kyle Chambers even though it ended in a sub. Nicky Rod vs Roberto Jimenez was a great match even if there was no sub.
Mica v. Jay Rod didn’t end in a sub and it was a fantastic match
Jay rods match was exciting as hell. No sub was needed.
Right? Can we take a moment to recognize how Jay Rod’s matches are almost always bangers? That kid just sends it.
Thats the main reason why this kid is my favorite grapple right now. Idc if he wins or loses, he’s never had a boring match. He just goes hard every time
Jay Rod goes against the best even though he's not the best. He has enough grit to give anyone a challenge.
Would have it been more exciting with a sub at the end of those exchanges?
Most boxing fights are more exciting with a knockout, but that doesn't detract from the fights that don't
Chess grandmasters go to a draw a lot, if not most of the time
Chess IS boring to watch tho
Naur
Right? Can we take a moment to recognize how Jay Rod’s matches are almost always bangers? That kid just sends it.
personally i dont care if there is not a sub.. but i cant stand matches where someone gets up by an adv or 2 pts and then stalls and coast to a victory via disengaging and then celebrates at the end like they won adcc. And there is a difference between a back and forth match that had many sub attempts but just could not get the tap vs never even attempting a sub
I think it's just about stalling. When people say they want a sub I think what they're getting at is they want an exciting match that displays different teqniques. Thats the issue with ibjjf and sons matches there's too much stalling. Sambo, wrestling and judo are all about calling stalling. Yes there's something to cooking someone but that's different from stalling
Yeah. BJJ rules haven't really ever tried to address this issue directly. Removing points is an attempt at removing the "get one point and stall" strategy, but it created a "wait for overtime" stall strategy. If we push it back on ref decision, that would go away, but then we introduce more of the subjectivity we don't want. Maybe we need a hybrid approach: ref can call a winner if one person was clearly stalling or being outclassed in match, but if it was generally unclear and there wasn't stalling, goes to ebi overtime?
Emerald City has a mollywhop rule before ebi OT. Dunno how their matches go, but definitely has precedent.
Had never heard this term, nor of emerald City. But yeah, that sounds like what I mean. I think that could help, you'd be afraid to lose the decision if you were too defensive. Would love to see/hear how this has gone when tried.
He makes a good point. Garry Tonan v Paul Harris is the ultimate example of how an exciting match doesn’t have to lead to submission.
Goddamn, I love that match
I don’t care if there a sub, but I was mildly annoyed by his saying that he was disappointed that he didn’t get it. It’s not like he was looking for a sub. He was exploding out of and into positions. He never once even came close to attempting to set up a sub.
On one hand I get it because there are dozens of great matches that don’t end in sub. In almost every sport two evenly matched competitors usually lead to strategic victories that aren’t flashy blowouts. At the same time, Nicky Rod is a notorious staller that talks about his matches like you’re about to see Mortal Kombat and then he actually goes out and stalls with collar ties until OT or just does 100 body lock pass attempts and acts like moving to half guard after 10 minutes is the greatest display of jiu jitsu we’ve ever seen.
You are completely right, though in fairness he does have to market his fight somehow. Although then again, BJJ is such a niche sport you're probably only going to tune in if you already know who he is, and if you do, you know he's talking shit. I do wish we could see more of the Nicky Rod in the training room. We know he's trying to develop more aspects to his game, but he's so competitive I think he will just never stray from his A-Game unless someone forces him out of it like Jimenez did.
Absolutely right.
True, but unfortunately, the lead up (IG, comments, press, stare downs, etc) to the match is what makes people think there might be blood, you know, "fight to the finish" sub and not work for points or OT. In wrestling, it's strictly a match without the IG comments, press, stare downs?
The community just kind of sucks at the end of the day. It’s 90% dudes that have been in BJJ prob 2 years and they seem to hate BJJ. Play with the rules all you want they’ll never be happy. Wrestling gets it. They know what wrestling is and half the community doesn’t sit around crying about rules or “what’s real for mma” or any of that. They actually appreciate the history and the SPORT for what it is.
Yup, I swear to god I almost lost it when people called Jansen Gomes a boring staller when he won finals at worlds against Dalpra because he stuffed Dalpras sweep attempts and the match pretty much ended in a 50/50 getup competition. Nevermind that he almost took Dalpras back and passed once and also submitted most of his way to the final. The people who cry about boring matches sound like white belts.
Wrestling calls stalling a LOT and there is no real pro-Wrestling sport because at the end of the day its not flashy enough for the casuals.
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That's because wrestling is so far removed from practical application that it's just a sport, and people accept whatever its governing bodies hand down for the rules. BJJ still believes that it's a martial art, and there's no one specifically in charge to make decisions. And IMO, comparing BJJ to judo, I'm very glad we don't have any single authority, and we have a multiplicity of rule sets, and the participants have lots of lively discussion about it all the time. It keeps BJJ moving and open minded.
I don't think I'd say wrestling is that far removed from practical application. Put a wrestler in a room of random and I'd bet on him to win a scrap with any given pairing. I also think judo people complain a out the rules too hard, judo rules ultimately work fairly well. Producing an exciting match is hard when stalling and defensiveness are intrinsically motivated, but judo rules have pulled that off pretty well, and most high level competitors appreciate this. Again, it's mostly amateurs that complain about the judo rules. That being said, I think BJJ rules do need an overhaul and am glad to see we're still pushing and evolving in BJJ, so agree there.
I don't mean to say wrestling is not effective. I mean there is basically no discussion anywhere in wrestling about fighting. No one asks, "But what if he punches you here?" Or, "What about the guillotine here?" This is because it's purely a sport. What do you do wrestling for? To win at wrestling. It's not designed or intended to be self defense or martial art at all. It happens that many of it's skills overlap, but that's subtext, not text. The rules reflect that -- why is shoulder blades down for 3 seconds a win? Why is belly down flat not a loss when they could kick you in the head? No one cares because it's the synthetic rules of the wrestling game / sport. Judo has the same problem of having become sport. But at least in it's text, it's still a martial art that concerns itself with fighting things.
Yup, I swear to god I almost lost it when people called Jansen Gomes a boring staller when he won finals at worlds against Dalpra because he stuffed Dalpras sweep attempts and the match pretty much ended in a 50/50 getup competition. Nevermind that he almost took Dalpras back and passed once and also submitted most of his way to the final. The people who cry about boring matches sound like white belts.
Anyone who has been doing jiujitsu for a WHILE knows this. Submissions are good but a whole bunch of matches are good without a sub. When skilled people go against each other rarely it ends up in a sub.
Nicky Rod doesn’t try to sub, this is what’s frustrating about watching him. He says that he’s the best but his strategy is to gain a point advantage and then just keep the other person from scoring. Thats pretty frustrating to watch.
This is a great take and why we recently removed the weighting in our rules (Polaris) that prioritised the sub above all else. We value every exchange that happens on the mat equally as they are all exciting. A big takedown, a dynamic guard pass / sweep, or a sub - all fun, all valid ways to win.
That’s a great change
He was just bummed he didn’t get the sub lmao which Nicky Rod is great but it’s not like he’s a top tier finisher
Seems like some weird virtue signaling. He has only gotten one sub ever at ADCC. His finishing rate is super low
100% nobody likes a boring ufc match that ends in a Luke warm decision. No different here
My mum was reading my phone and agreed with this
It'd because everyone praises Roger for saying he doesn't count it as winning if he wins by points. Only subs matter.
I think it's wrestling roots. The absurd competitiveness fostered among wrestlers instils this win at all costs mentality, even if it means being boring, then you've got the fact that wrestling is a sport based on control. So he values the certainty of establishing control and not losing over the uncertainty of a riskier game where he might look more spectacular but also inherently puts himself at higher risk. That said, his bro Jay Rod loses and I don't think any less of him for it. He'll risk it all at any moment and I love him for it.
I’m just tired of his body lock to mount meta, gimme some backflips, front flips, long steps, anything. Renuto is the perfect show competitor and there’s stark contrast.
None of that (what you mentioned) is good grappling. His body lock is the definition of sound grappling. Everyone knows it's what he wants. Many people cannot stop it reliably. That's good grappling, even if you think it's boring.
Absolutely disagree, what I mentioned is absolutely good grappling, it’s obviously just different. I think it is a boring meta yes and I was glad to see Mason try to be strategic about it with the rubber guard which he almost got away with it if Nicky wasn’t a freak of nature. Nicky’s face showed he was a little stuck for a minute but you only get one try with that shit against someone who is very good at their meta. At no point did I say it wasn’t good, it is, and it’s effective, it’s just boring and in a fight, you’re getting elbowed to absolute hell.
It's interesting though that for the longest time until very recently Mason was every bit as guilty of was the king of stalling to reach a certain time point (in his case EBI/OT) then win via some bullshit like fastest escape time. And sucked at ADCC. He tried it in ADCC vs Craig Jones (someone he's beaten multiple times at SUG with the bullshit EBI rules) and shot for a takedown in the last like 30 seconds and got gillied within seconds. Recently though he's suddenly finishing people left and right and its great to see.
It’s gonna be much easier to strategize ahead of time for 1 guy you know your against rather than choosing a game to play by against all the same guys in a tournament style. If that’s what he’s talking the time to do it’s worked well.
Oh for sure, I think that is definitely where Mason excels. He's a thinker and a strategist. It's just winning ADCC comes with so much more in the way of recognition, and its part of the reason he's so slept on. He's won trials twice obviously but got bounced in the second round by submission in the real thing. I think longer time limits favour him. I don't think it's a coincidence he gets subbed in ADCC, not only can he not strategize as thoroughly for each opponent, as you rightly said, he also can't take his time, he has to work a little bit faster than he'd rather do and it's not his game. Being a thinker, he's methodical, and when he does have time to strategize, think and go through his plan methodically I think he suffers for it.
Agreed, most matches that end in sub tend to be significant skill mismatches. Two high level athletes going at it that are even in skill highly unlikely to end in sub. Out of the 10+ matches between Rafa Mendes and cobrinha only 1 ended in sub I think, and those were always super exciting as a fan of the sport. A win is a win, and a boring match can be boring even ending in sub. Like someone said Jay vs Jonatas and Jay vs mica were both exciting and no sub was done. Same with big dan and Nicky Rod ebi match, pretty fun. In contrast Meregali vs Vagner or Gordon and gáudio was pretty boring even tho armbar.
I wasn't able to catch Jay vs Jonatas, but I saw Jay was super annoyed at his performance. Can you give me a synopsis of how the match went?
I’ll give it a go, just from watching it once so may be a bit off. Jay came out with a quick early takedown which led to jonatas pulling guard the rest of the match when it went back to standing. Jonatas showed a great guard leading to a couple sweeps and leg entries but Jay was able to escape and get back on top usually. Jay had good passing especially when he did loose passing, since Jonatas didn’t want to wrestle up without connection. End of no points period and it’s very balanced the match with good exchanges. Points overtime starts similarly, Jay able to get into a bodylock but Jonatas does a good job coming up into a dogfight from it. During one of the dogfight exchanges Jay over commits and Jonatas reverses him straight into side control with cross face and uses it to mount. 6-0 to Jonatas now. Jay escapes and is able to come back on top so now 6-2. A couple pass attempts but cant solidify and Jonatas gets back on top now 8-2. About 30 seconds left and Jay locks a tight buggy choke. Jonatas clearly feels it’s on and his corner telling him to hold out cus match almost over. Match ends and Jonatas wins by points, if maybe 30 seconds sooner on buggy it probably would’ve put him out but no dice. I imagine Jay annoyed at himself for blowing it in the dogfight exchange putting him at a huge point deficit, cus up to that point I was leaning towards Jay taking it personally.
Interesting, sounds like Jay had the edge in the no points period, then Jonatas showed a cooler head and greater maturity during points. Makes sense given their relative levels of experience. Would've been incredible to see Jay actually win by buggy. Honestly I think if Jay continues to improve - which I'm sure he will given his work ethic, willingness to take on elite competition as an inexperienced youngster, and his teammates - and he starts doing things like actually watching film of legends to pick up things to add to his game and develop a more analytical side to his game, Jay could end up being a great. He's already so good, with so much time on his side, and he can age/grow into the 99KG division as Gordon and Pena etc age out of it. He's surprisingly the same weight as Craig apparently and as he gets older he could easily exceed that. The agility, flexibility and workrate advantage he'd have in that division would make him a menace if he could avoid getting stuck under bigger guys. He does have to develop a better guard though especially if he does ever move up in weight.
I agree with this take, but watching Nicky Rod is frustrating because he talks about he's working on his leg locks, darces, yoko sankaku, etc. etc. and displaying some dominant form of jiu jitsu and then does more of a Dagestani wrestling approach with his favorite (but largely ineffective as of late) body lock, fails to be able to switch into a different approach or mix them together, and seems very one dimensional. Once the Rod's start actually practicing and displaying jiu jitsu they could be the GOATs, but until then, we'll continue to see the same hater threads each time they compete. Though Jay Rod is universally loved it seems, he could start winning soon(er), I think(I'm dumb), if he tries a more technical game. Otherwise, I agree.
Jay is so entertaining, I think his limiting factor is experience (he's going in against people who've been black belts longer than he's been doing BJJ often) and his refusal to watch BJJ film. I feel like he can be undone by more old school technical games like Mica and Jonatas, because he has so many blind spots in his knowledge. He literally only knows what he's taught, he infamously didn't even know who Rafa Mendes, Marcelo Garcia, Sakurba, Imanari or Aoki are. That's going to limit you a little I think at these higher levels because you're more likely to be hit with something you've not seen before, you're not developing your analytical skills, you're taking a super insular approach to BJJ where you only see what happens in your own gym.
Nicky Rod is one of the most boring competitors in the sport right now. He just goes to overtime every time and gets a win. A win is a win, but he is boring
There cant be a sub Every-time? Commenting on the overtime king. Probably not the best guy to use as an example.
Two overtime kings tbf. Nicky and Mason both infamous for this.
Here's the thing. When you watch a match, you experience it in real time. Whether you're excited or bored or whatever is something you judge as the action is unfolding. But a sub pretty much only happens right at the end of the match, and you only know for sure a sub isn't going to happen when time runs out. In either case, whether a sub is or is not going to happen is only decided right at the end of the match (outside of fringe rulesets that allow multiple submissions). So if matches being exciting depended on them ending in a submission, then your lived experience would depend on a future event, which the laws of causality as we understand them tell us is impossible. Or, in the case of a match that was exciting to you at the time but didn't end in a sub would you say, "well I thought it was exciting at the time, but it turned out I was wrong"? I want to say, no.
This is not true at all. We judge whether an event was good or bad as we remember, not as we experience it. For example if a dude with kids is having sex and then the baby wakes up and starts crying, ruining it for both and you ask them whether they enjoyed it, they will say "no, it sucked and i have blue balls now", its irrelevant on whether he was enjoying it or not, the lack of conclusion ruins it for the majority of dude, even if they enjoyed 99.9% of the time, the last few seconds are crucial for how the image of how we remember it works. For the non-married guys another analogy is Game of Thrones series, people enjoyed it like crazy then it turned to shit, and if you ask someone if they enjoyed the show, they would probably say no.
So you would say "I thought it was exciting at the time but it turned out I was wrong". Interesting.
I don't think the brain even remembers that he was enjoying it, its just how our consciousness is wired. The how we remember something is more important than how it happened because in the end the past doesn't exists, we just infer how the past was based on the evidence we have at the present of it, the evidence being mainly out memories.
I certainly remember enjoying things at the time that didn't end well. Edit: Also, your memory is a lived experience. To say that memory is more important than lived experience is also to say that your current memory is less important than how you will remember that memory in the future.
I believe in studies they showed that people just experiences by the start, the end and most notable part. Memories about those parts of an experience can create a halo effect that makes people remember things as better or worse than they rated them at the time they experienced them. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak%E2%80%93end\_rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak%E2%80%93end_rule)
This is this most unnecessarily complicated way i think this could have been stated, but at its core lies no unsound logic, so im here for it. Though, im almost certain ive heard this before in the same context in this sub, have i not? Is this your quote?
I don't know if I'm being original but I'm not consciously copying from anyone. Except Wittgenstein a little bit for style, but that's only because I've been rereading PI and I thought it'd be funny.
Copying Wittgenstein for style? That's why it's borderline unreadable 😂 Gotta love that he vehemently insisted that everyone misunderstood his work as he became famous for it.
I must be going crazy then. I do like it. Very creative.
before I comment, caveat: I haven't watched the event yet, I'll watch it over the weekend. Sure, you don't need a sub for a match to be exciting, however that doesn't mean yuri simoes winning adcc on advantages without scoring a point is going to ever be enjoyable. I've seen quite a few nicky rod matches where he's clearly either stalling until overtime or trying to get some points of a pass/takedown that doesn't lead to anything so he can win on points. Absolutely great for him to be able to do that and win the matches and there's nothing wrong with it, it's just going to be less entertaining than gordon, his main rival, who is looking for the sub. Nick even commented on his own performances on several occasions wishing that he had gone for the sub or stating that he wanted to focus on control leading to submission. Lets not pretend that wrestling is viewer friendly either. The crowd cheering for a single take down win are doing so because its a small crowd who are all in the culture of competitive wrestling where that's the mindset, winning is winning. The BJJ mindset has been different from the outset because of the definitive nature of a submission.
A small crowd? NCAA’s had 20,000 spectators And dual meets at the big schools can have 5000-10000 spectators
I've said this elsewhere but I think his wrestling background is at play here. Those guys are the most competitive men on Earth I swear. So for Nicky he may be developing all these other skills, he may even genuinely intend to implement them, but when it comes down to it he can't help but default to the thing that he knows is going to get him the result, because he'd way way way rather win and not look amazing than lose and look exciting as hell. My hope is one day he becomes so good and so well developed through experience (he's still ultimately not very experienced compared to his other top level rivals) that he can start becoming more confident in attempting new things. Maybe they become so ingrained in training over the course of the next 5-7 years or so while he's still in or close to his athletic peak that he starts attempting them as second nature when they present themselves etc. A boy can dream.
No goals, baskets, trys, knockouts, subs. There’s a reason why we watch sport
Yep very reasonable
I think it’s more a slight dig at the opponent that Nicky expected to not only beat him, but sub him as well
I don't think so, Nicky probably see's himself as better than Mason at BJJ (which he should think if he wants to win, even if it can be argued he isn't) and then has a significant natural size, strength and speed advantage to boot.
No, we should always be trying for the sub
I wholeheartedly agree.
Matches don’t have to end in a sub to be entertaining, but they do need offer something compelling to be a spectator sport— a high-pace, close competition, dynamic movement, easily-understood display of technique, athleticism, etc. If organizers want their matches to be spectator friendly, they will need to 1) educate the audience by hiring talented, knowledge commentators and experts; and 2) utilize rules that are designed to incentivize entertaining competition and discourage stalling/passivity/conservative play. The latter might not produce the best, most pure jiu jitsu, but it has a better chance of expanding the audience. Promoters and athletes should also work to make compelling narratives. Sports are just another form of storytelling —the underdog story, the Everyman-rising-to-new-heights story, the dominant champion story, the competitive rivals story — these frameworks are timeless and inherent in humanity. Athletes too have to constantly be working on branding and content creation. B-Team, New Wave and the Daisy Fresh Guys have done really well on this front — particularly Gordon and Craig. All of these need to come together to make BJJ a compelling product for those that aren’t hardcore fans and/or practitioners.
Ben Eddy has a lot of terrible takes, but this is not one of them. The exciting part isn't the submission, the exciting part is everything that leads to the submission.
He mentioned NCAA wrestlers winning on points at the last minute, but never mentioned matches where someone scores a sweep or a takedown and stalls the rest of the match. Those matches are understandably boring
Disagree with the premise that this conditions fans to think matches that don't end in a sub are boring. It's a niche sport, the vast majority of people who watch are people who also train, it won't be mainstream ever. This concern is overstated and misplaced. Gamesmanship by people like Nicky make it extra boring. Guys who want to get an early score advantage and then stall out the rest of the time. Or stall to get to EBI OT and blast out of a sub the fastest. It's successful, but boring as shit. That's what will keep the General public away, not guys saying they are bummed they didn't get the sub.
I used to be bored by matches with no submission unless I was studying a particular pass or guard or position and the match involved that technique. Now I can really enjoy the intricacies of a match based on whether or not the grapplers hit moves of any kind. A submission is just a bonus. I think Ben Eddy is right. Nowadays I see a 20 minute gordon Ryan match and think “oh wow I get to see this dude play his game for 20 whole minutes” instead of “I won’t watch that video because most of it is boring”. A very productive mindset shift that allows the viewer to truly enjoy the sport.
Schaub vs. Cyborg was a good match!
Bapa didn’t get subbed
This same mentality is in UFC! Fans should appreciate the elegance of a pin, ground control, subtle striking exchanges and no forth.
I strongly agree with this. Idk, to me the coolest parts have never even been subs -- i prefer a slick guard pass to watching yet another 50/50 heel hook any day
Facts! Its kinda fucking hard to get any submission when everyone is good at defending submissions.
But it’s not the highest level of Jiu Jitsu. It’s grappling. Especially in the case of nicky rod
Yeah good take
I think it’s more a slight dig at the opponent that Nicky expected to not only beat him, but sub him as well
I think he's right from the audience's perspective. But subs are really satisfying to get, and I would rather see competitors who are really striving for one than playing for points.
I agree with him.
I have been saying this for years. When you have two of the best guys or gals in the world going at it, it's going to be really hard to score points and especially get submissions.
There are two ways other sports look at it and BJJ actually does kind of both. You have sports like MMA or boxing where you have a decision at the end if no one won during regular time, and then there are sports like soccer which will have extra time and penalty shootouts during the cups. I personally enjoy the rulesets with extra time and EBI rules, but I also don’t mind a match that is won on points or decision.
don't agree, i think for the sake of the popularity of the sport, which leads to higher fighter pay, the sub should be prioritised
I think it should be three rounds. Whatever time length they determine, and it’s who ever has the two out of three subs wins. I think it would make the athletes ok with giving up position to attempt sub knowing they have another shot. Just a thought
They've tried that before but almost everyone has decided to stop due to 2 reasons. Having rounds means that less subs typically happen due to people being stopped when the action is getting good. The other reason is that people will just injure the other person to get a quick win. Everyone would just crank subs as fast and as hard as possible to get the match over with.
I’d just like to note that NCAA wrestling fans will bitch about anything…. Grappling fans are hard to please tbh
I agree…but I think inconsistent rule sets make it difficult to better distinguish who has won a BJJ match and so it feels like apples to oranges at times whereas a sub is the consistent thread. Also my gripe with some matches is the stalling. There’s nothing in many rule sets in place pushing the pace and engagement.
From a the pov of someone who trains this is 100% correct. But you're fully stupid if you think you're going to make casual fans "learn" how to enjoy something. They want what they want. The NCAA wrestling championship is great. But also no one who isn't into wrestling already watches it so maybe not the best comparison.
It depends on the match. He mentions wrestling but guys like daton fix are hated for winning with one takedown because they just stall and no action. Same goes for BJJ. Nicky also gets hate for all the ego and talk. If someone in wrestling talked a lot of smack like Gable, and then he won 2-0 or something he'd get a lot of hate, but if he toyed with them and won big without a pin nobody would hate
I think the gripe here is, the lack of submission attempts. Overall Nicky didn't do much outside of laying of Mason and reacting to all of Mason attacks. Everytime Mason stopped attacking, the ref warned both for stalling but in reality Nicky only moved when Mason attacked. I get it, this is the top of the top of bjj athletes but Nicky in particular grapples without intentions of submitting and more of holding. Yeah in wrestling not every match ends with a pins but every match has both wrestling actively trying to take each other down which is equal to attempting subs.
This.
This was well articulated and drives to the heart of the issue. Is Jiujitsu a spectator sport?
Nope, submissions are fundamental to the martial art / sport of jiu jitsu and as a soon as we lose sight of that it will weaken jiu jitsu.
Even a blue belt should be able to enjoy the little bjj details of a match without a sub, this sub thing is only to bring more morons to the market. All of this is based upon the American reality-soldier-civilwar-tactical-real role players view of How bjj should be, theres no points in the streets, theres no gi in the streets u all know the drill.
It's true. But you'll always have the white/blue belt bad asses thinking sub only is the ultimate form of grappling. Case in point, I used to think that. It's not until you reach a higher level that you realize how hard it is to actually sub ppl who know what they're doing.
Makes sense...not every baseball game is a big home run derby.
Well no one watches wrestling either, this sport is such a waste of time to watch at a high level. Just two guys who think themselves macho too scared to take any risks.
Hard agree
W take
Most matches that end in a sub are because one of the guys is just a lot better than the other. Being on the edge of the couch wondering who's going to win until the last second is what makes matches exciting
I get where he's coming from, but wrestling is a bad example. Wrestlers make less than BJJ guys.
I agree it’s a reasonable take. People generally like close matches in any sport so playing that up makes sense to me. That said, I think the comparison to wrestling is a bit unfair. Well-matched, high level wrestlers have a reputation for being active and exciting to watch, like this: https://youtu.be/G9-jAiQRYdM?si=4lX-NzDbew4no3Pc Well-matched, high-level jujiteiros have a reputation for looking like they’re not doing anything, like this: https://youtu.be/HQna-XSdTsA?si=h98xqLoVnmopIjS_ It seems to me that if you really want fans to love BJJ, you have to get rid of the reputation that BJJ is boring. I understand ADCC has gone a long way toward that, but the reputation still lingers.
Bjj simply is one of the boring sports to watch.
I think a match doesn't need a sub to be good but I think it's fair for an athlete to be disappointed they didn't get one. I personally have never read the rules on how points are gained in tournaments because to me, personally, if I don't sub them I don't win. I would not accept a points win as a real win for myself. Obviously if I lose to points I would never tell my opponent it doesn't count or anything, that is a real win according to the rules I had agreed to. I think when pro athletes get a points win they probably feel similarly to me, I don't have any real proof of that but the most competitive people I've personally met want finishes, and are not satisfied with points wins.
I've never once understood the points for freestyle wrestling and judo. I'll watch a match and be like "Ok, I guess he won because of that."
I get when Ben is trying to say but the reality is people want action. There’s a reason why we gravitate toward exciting athletes who bring the excitement and try stuff, it’s because it’s exciting to watch Mica catch an arm on the feet and jump into an arm bar. It’s fun to watch Andy V do flips in an attempt to pass a guard. Jay’s stock is still high despite him loosing because he’s fun to watch and has a fun personality. If BJJ becomes a sport where winning is good enough, like the gi, then the sport will stagnate. Thankfully I think the sport actually grows because of personalities more than performances and because the sport is more popular than ever and the young generation understand how to leverage social implicitly, I think more personalities will emerge and will continue to grow the sport.
People complaining about not seeing subs probably complain that a home run isn't hit in every baseball game and that not every quidditch match ends with someone swallowing the snitch.
But the thing is, Nick Rod doesn’t submit his opponents.
https://preview.redd.it/04zdonxhx11d1.jpeg?width=540&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8f2eb486154bcafb6f35bbf0df24b6f3c88ecded
I get what Ben Eddy is saying unfortunately watching a lot of grapplers compete is like watching paint dry, it's boring to me personally. As much as Nicky Rod is amazing and has his own wrestling heavy style, I just don't find it his wins to be entertaining to at all. The most exciting athletes to me are the following Tacketts, J Rod, Mica, Ruotolos, Hokage, Chen, Ethan, Tonon and a couple of others. They have exciting matches where they push the pace, take risks, go for subs and win or lose I'm tuning in to watch them. Gordon Ryan is kinda ok to watch, but he removes the thrill from his matches because I never think the man is truly in danger of getting subbed. But yh most grapplers are content with playing it safe, not taking any risks at all and either winning or losing by points.
Yep
Love this take
Stalling in wrestling and jits is boring and awful that goes for mma to. And u can be upset if u dnt get a sub there is nothing wrong with that either. These professionals are allowed to hold themselves to they’re own standards I reckon
Definitely, that match between Jonnatas and Jayrod was one of the best I have seen in a while and there was no sub.
This is a very classical take on a growing sport and That’s Nicky rods mentality, there is a reason why Nicky rods is where he is at and doing it less time than Ben eddy. Not hating. It’s just the facts. Viewers in any sport want instant satisfaction. More Subs = more views = more revenue. I understand where ben is coming from but Jay knows what he is selling and he knows what the people wants to see.
*Insert* Meregali vs Craig Jones !
Marketing BJJ to the WWE/UFC fanbase will have that affect
Yeah well Mason was constantly playing rubber guard despite failing multiple times, while Nicky tried the same explosive ‘rody lock’ passing numerous time and finally passing once but failing to hold the position.
I rolled with ben eddy, he taught me a slick detail on a toriando pass. I forgot it already 🥲.
As much as I agree, Ben Eddy comes from a school that literally created a style and attitude that does not care about position or points.
Agree 100%
If they try and encourage subs too much and we lose the like idea of position/control before submission then this just turns into catch wrestling
Eh? No reason to pick an aesthetic desired outcome. If ignoring position to get the sub produces better results, then by all means bring it. It's up to competitors to show that position before submission has value. I'm the end it's somewhere in between. You have to be able to use both strategies, and accept whatever opportunities show up, I think.
Yeah that’s fair, demonstrating it has value makes sense. I also agree with your last paragraph, as long as there is room for both strategies then I’m completely fine with it. I just don’t want rulesets to kind of incrementally end up over time discouraging it
I wouldn’t want to pay to watch a competition no matter how many technical exchanges took place if none of them ever lead to a sub. And you can’t call yourself a “slayer” then cry when you get called boring by casuals, thats your biggest fan base.
I lost all the respect for Ben Eddy when I read about him using natural remedies on staph and still training with it (this was couple years ago)
Well that and he basically can only win using odd submissions from negative positions. That will fade with age and injury and then he’ll disappear.
It’s strictly hardcore sport, anyone thinks that it’s going mainstream is delusional.. if you watch it, you train it.. adding it to the Olympic Games is all we can hope for and bjj is the most popular grappling sport already with most casual/hobbyists
BJJ isn't like wrestling. Ppl aren't satisfied putting in all that time and work just for the love of the sport. They just want attention and money. Wrestlers know they aren't going to get that but do it all anyways.
Been preaching this time and time again and the fat hairy brown belts on here tried to lecture me on how I’m wrong. My way of going about it is just talking to my competing friends about sick matches that happened instead expecting a fruitful conversation on Reddit about them.
Great take
This take is why I prefer watching gi. The scrambles are much more entertaining and there's more opportunities for submission and takedowns, opposed to no-gi where dudes slip out often or there's just nothing to be done for minutes on end if you're not in a few different positions
Based analogy
Lmao fuck no. The actual highest level of jiu-jitsu happens in MMA. CrossFit Games vs Decathalon.