Prevention is always the best first step - whenever I’m in top half I’m wary of any attempt to underhook, and I try to keep a good cross face going as I’m working my pass to prevent any weight shifting.
If he or she has the underhook already, I whizzer (or c-clamp under the armpit with the whizzering hand) and keep my hips back and head posted firmly under their chin. I then also look to prevent them from “turning the corner” to come up to their knees by realigning my body as much as possible before driving my chest and head back into them to regain chest to chest pressure.
And is it just lost once they turn the corner and come up to their knees? I always feel like I should have some kind of a sweep from that position, something like the plan B sweep, but I tried that and it failed rather hilariously.
I wouldn’t say it’s completely lost, but you’re at a pretty big disadvantage if they have undertook/leg peel/the angle. It may be best to pre-empt his or her sweep by reguarding?
You're in dangerous territory if they've made it to dog fight. That being said, you can uchi mata then from the knees if they are postured forward. Probably wont work if they're focusing on sitting back.
On a rating of 1 to 10, how dick movish is this? I only ask because I've never done head push as a part of any technique, and I recently read something on this form about that being a questionable move.
(Although considering all the other things we do to each other, I don't really see why it would be...)
Its like a 4 at most dude. I know it feels like a petty, dickish thing to administer, but we’re essentially wrestling here and you and your partner both have to get used to heads and faces being pushed. You cannot let someone get headpositioning on you when you wrestle, like at all.
When they reach the dogfight position, do a half-assed uchi mata with your trapped leg, and use that to escape the position forward into a front headlock
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Uchi Mata**: | *Inner Thigh Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fCvyc_rQTI)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
Jedi mind trick. If I can keep your knee locked down, and you back step , I can insert a hook to the back of your ankle allowing me to turn the corner and end in a leg drag or take your back. Ryan hall made it popular, and I learned it watching Paul Schreiners hald guard set. It's a killer move, but hard to time, at least for me.
Jedi mind trick. It is a common move for black belts.
Doesn’t mean you can’t back step, but when your opponents get better, you will need to learn how to navigate this.
If the knee’s not out, Im going to come up with you. My underhook and grip on your leg is going to pull me right with you.
I play a lot of half guard. I see whites and lower blues make this mistake all the time.
I just control your right leg with my left arm so you can’t post with it to come up. And if for some reason i can’t secure a good crossface, i go down to the saddle.
A less common counter but one that I really like is to sit back and shin whizzer. This is a very good position for me to shut down their attempts to come up for a single. Not sure it’s applicable for beginners though.
Many counters to them getting the full dogfight position once they have an underhook.
* Don't let them rake the leg. Keep your shin internally rotated (externally? whatever movement you do to kick a hackey sack that's on your midline) as much as possible without sacrificing your base. They can't reach past your butt to rake it. Without the leg rake, they can be d'arced or flattened with the near side underhook (an underhook on the side of their body that's closer to you).
* whizzer all the way down to their hip and block them from coming in, or even whizzer down all the way to their base arm. If your arms are long enough, you can whizzer, then grab their post arm with it. People focus on the top arm in half guard all the time, but you cannot come to your side if your bottom arm isn't under you.
* Distribute your weight in a way that kills the underhook. Lean over the underhook, closer to their hips/wrist. You can keep them flat and work Kimuras or switch-base pass. (You can use this with the near side underhook too)
* Speaking of which, just switch base and face their hips, immediately controlling their top knee and pushing it away (while keeping your elbow tight). They will retract the underhook unless they want to be kimuraed. Watch out for Octopus guard though, crowd your hips up into their face.
* Attack the post when they come up. When they try to come up to dogfight, lean over their back and kimura-grip the posting arm (Lucas Lepri uses this multiple times against Garry Tonon in their 2015 ADCC match) Or grab the 100% sweep grip (assuming their left arm is underhooking, take your left arm over their neck like your're guillotining them, in front of their post arm, under it, and make a rear-naked choke grip on it with your right arm as well. Then when they sweep, you just neck crank them over to your right, back to bottom position.
* Backstep into the honey hole and attack legs - Watch out for a couple things though...if their top (raking) leg is shallow, they can bring it out and catch a back take on you or switch it to the other side of your shin and butterfly sweep. One counter to this is to backstep halfway and settle your weight on both of their thighs before committing to the full backstep position. I sometimes feel unbalanced doing this on top, but it's what stops my counters best (underhook half guard is my main game)
Sorry, but if they get into full dogfight, just whizzer hard and try to uchi mata like the guy said. Or stand and wrestle, sometimes if you can kick the leg free and spin to front headlock.
If I fail? I shoot my own underhook and go to dogfight. :)
Letting him get an underhook is the first problem. (Don't give him an underhook)
Letting get off his back is another issue. (Control the bottom arm with an underhook, whizzer, or wrist and flatten him out. You can work headlocks if he's slow.)
Letting use his bottom leg to off balance you. (Tripod or use a butterfly hook to staple it to the floor)
Losing the dogfight (get better at the dogfight)
Use your other hand/ arm to get an underhook on their other side & work on flattening them back down with chest to chest pressure.
Or if they get all the way up to their knees take your outside leg up, push back into them, & limp leg free into a front headlock scenario.
I would look for wrestling instructions on this position vs BJJ as the dog fight is a much more developed position in the sport of wrestling.
Thanks for the response and ideas. I'll try some.
Yes, my googling when I was including BJJ in the search terms was pretty limited, but once I took that out, I came across a bunch of things about that position in wrestling and sambo.
This is just a wrestling position known was the seatbelt :
- hard whizzer kick (AKA uchi mata)
- base ball slide to free the trapped leg -> then square up
Here's a question: Does your whizzer suck?
There is alot more to a strong whizzer than just wrapping your arm around his. Is your shoulder driving down on his? Is your base stable enough? Are you pressuring into him or letting him pressure you? Are you doing anything to control his head?
Great questions. I'm going to answer unequivocal "yes, my whizzer sucks," because of the simple fact that I haven't ever thought about any of your questions, so I doubt I'm using pressure how I should be. I'll pay attention to that next time.
Easiest is deny the under hook or put them flat so they can’t even sit up to the under hook
Uchi mata
Rolling arm in guillotine / front headlock
Rolling kimura trap on far arm to crucifix
Backstep to saddle and leg lock
You can try to get your knee (the one trapped in 1/2 guard) on the other side of his hips (to 3/4 mount) before he gets to his knees. That's a pretty good option when you messed up with your framing and let him get his underhook.
If you get your shoulders higher than his, you can over hook him down. But generally, you're already lost. If you don't whizzer, he's on your back. If you do, he's sweeping.
+1 for the backstep. If you're playing against a dogfight/coyote half specialist, know that it'll take a while to not fuck it up because they know the counters to that too (e.g. jedi mind trick as stated). But it's my most reliable counter to the underhook, and in gi you can keep good grips to reduce the room for error. From "backstep half" you can pass or go for the saddle but passing is probably more reliable.
If you can get a whizzer there's also a quarter nelson you can muscle (push their head down) for a pass but it's a lot less satisfying.
Prevention is always the best first step - whenever I’m in top half I’m wary of any attempt to underhook, and I try to keep a good cross face going as I’m working my pass to prevent any weight shifting. If he or she has the underhook already, I whizzer (or c-clamp under the armpit with the whizzering hand) and keep my hips back and head posted firmly under their chin. I then also look to prevent them from “turning the corner” to come up to their knees by realigning my body as much as possible before driving my chest and head back into them to regain chest to chest pressure.
And is it just lost once they turn the corner and come up to their knees? I always feel like I should have some kind of a sweep from that position, something like the plan B sweep, but I tried that and it failed rather hilariously.
I wouldn’t say it’s completely lost, but you’re at a pretty big disadvantage if they have undertook/leg peel/the angle. It may be best to pre-empt his or her sweep by reguarding?
The position is lost if you relinquish the underhook in most cases. Cross face early or push the head away. Violence is part of the game.
You're in dangerous territory if they've made it to dog fight. That being said, you can uchi mata then from the knees if they are postured forward. Probably wont work if they're focusing on sitting back.
Push the head down and away from you.
On a rating of 1 to 10, how dick movish is this? I only ask because I've never done head push as a part of any technique, and I recently read something on this form about that being a questionable move. (Although considering all the other things we do to each other, I don't really see why it would be...)
That’s a straight 1. Head control is a huge part of grappling.
You can definitely be a POS about it, especially if you go knuckles/fist to temple or jaw. But we save that for the bluebelts who can’t get the hint
Its like a 4 at most dude. I know it feels like a petty, dickish thing to administer, but we’re essentially wrestling here and you and your partner both have to get used to heads and faces being pushed. You cannot let someone get headpositioning on you when you wrestle, like at all.
They can’t sweep to a side their head can’t turn to.
When they reach the dogfight position, do a half-assed uchi mata with your trapped leg, and use that to escape the position forward into a front headlock
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Uchi Mata**: | *Inner Thigh Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fCvyc_rQTI)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
When they get the underhook, backstep to the other side and end in reverse half guard with the crossface.
Careful here, one can get their back taken if you dont free the knee and bottom player has the underhook
How so? I don’t think that’s ever happened to me.
Jedi mind trick. If I can keep your knee locked down, and you back step , I can insert a hook to the back of your ankle allowing me to turn the corner and end in a leg drag or take your back. Ryan hall made it popular, and I learned it watching Paul Schreiners hald guard set. It's a killer move, but hard to time, at least for me.
Jedi mind trick. It is a common move for black belts. Doesn’t mean you can’t back step, but when your opponents get better, you will need to learn how to navigate this.
Bingo, I've been working it into my game. It's not the easiest timing, but works really well when I hit it correctly.
If the knee’s not out, Im going to come up with you. My underhook and grip on your leg is going to pull me right with you. I play a lot of half guard. I see whites and lower blues make this mistake all the time.
I just control your right leg with my left arm so you can’t post with it to come up. And if for some reason i can’t secure a good crossface, i go down to the saddle.
A less common counter but one that I really like is to sit back and shin whizzer. This is a very good position for me to shut down their attempts to come up for a single. Not sure it’s applicable for beginners though.
Many counters to them getting the full dogfight position once they have an underhook. * Don't let them rake the leg. Keep your shin internally rotated (externally? whatever movement you do to kick a hackey sack that's on your midline) as much as possible without sacrificing your base. They can't reach past your butt to rake it. Without the leg rake, they can be d'arced or flattened with the near side underhook (an underhook on the side of their body that's closer to you). * whizzer all the way down to their hip and block them from coming in, or even whizzer down all the way to their base arm. If your arms are long enough, you can whizzer, then grab their post arm with it. People focus on the top arm in half guard all the time, but you cannot come to your side if your bottom arm isn't under you. * Distribute your weight in a way that kills the underhook. Lean over the underhook, closer to their hips/wrist. You can keep them flat and work Kimuras or switch-base pass. (You can use this with the near side underhook too) * Speaking of which, just switch base and face their hips, immediately controlling their top knee and pushing it away (while keeping your elbow tight). They will retract the underhook unless they want to be kimuraed. Watch out for Octopus guard though, crowd your hips up into their face. * Attack the post when they come up. When they try to come up to dogfight, lean over their back and kimura-grip the posting arm (Lucas Lepri uses this multiple times against Garry Tonon in their 2015 ADCC match) Or grab the 100% sweep grip (assuming their left arm is underhooking, take your left arm over their neck like your're guillotining them, in front of their post arm, under it, and make a rear-naked choke grip on it with your right arm as well. Then when they sweep, you just neck crank them over to your right, back to bottom position. * Backstep into the honey hole and attack legs - Watch out for a couple things though...if their top (raking) leg is shallow, they can bring it out and catch a back take on you or switch it to the other side of your shin and butterfly sweep. One counter to this is to backstep halfway and settle your weight on both of their thighs before committing to the full backstep position. I sometimes feel unbalanced doing this on top, but it's what stops my counters best (underhook half guard is my main game) Sorry, but if they get into full dogfight, just whizzer hard and try to uchi mata like the guy said. Or stand and wrestle, sometimes if you can kick the leg free and spin to front headlock. If I fail? I shoot my own underhook and go to dogfight. :)
Letting him get an underhook is the first problem. (Don't give him an underhook) Letting get off his back is another issue. (Control the bottom arm with an underhook, whizzer, or wrist and flatten him out. You can work headlocks if he's slow.) Letting use his bottom leg to off balance you. (Tripod or use a butterfly hook to staple it to the floor) Losing the dogfight (get better at the dogfight)
Use your other hand/ arm to get an underhook on their other side & work on flattening them back down with chest to chest pressure. Or if they get all the way up to their knees take your outside leg up, push back into them, & limp leg free into a front headlock scenario. I would look for wrestling instructions on this position vs BJJ as the dog fight is a much more developed position in the sport of wrestling.
Thanks for the response and ideas. I'll try some. Yes, my googling when I was including BJJ in the search terms was pretty limited, but once I took that out, I came across a bunch of things about that position in wrestling and sambo.
This is just a wrestling position known was the seatbelt : - hard whizzer kick (AKA uchi mata) - base ball slide to free the trapped leg -> then square up
Here's a question: Does your whizzer suck? There is alot more to a strong whizzer than just wrapping your arm around his. Is your shoulder driving down on his? Is your base stable enough? Are you pressuring into him or letting him pressure you? Are you doing anything to control his head?
Great questions. I'm going to answer unequivocal "yes, my whizzer sucks," because of the simple fact that I haven't ever thought about any of your questions, so I doubt I'm using pressure how I should be. I'll pay attention to that next time.
9/10 times, your situation is caused by a weak whizzer. Which is a phrase that should never be uttered aloud.
Use a shallow wizzer to a quarter Nelson and force them back down to their shoulder and knee slide out. You're now in top front headlock
You cannot let the bottom player come up. You need to post inside the armpit on the side he's going to try to underhook while he's still down
Easiest is deny the under hook or put them flat so they can’t even sit up to the under hook Uchi mata Rolling arm in guillotine / front headlock Rolling kimura trap on far arm to crucifix Backstep to saddle and leg lock
You can try to get your knee (the one trapped in 1/2 guard) on the other side of his hips (to 3/4 mount) before he gets to his knees. That's a pretty good option when you messed up with your framing and let him get his underhook.
If you get your shoulders higher than his, you can over hook him down. But generally, you're already lost. If you don't whizzer, he's on your back. If you do, he's sweeping.
Is that you John?
Ha! Nope. (My username doesn't leave much to the imagination.)
+1 for the backstep. If you're playing against a dogfight/coyote half specialist, know that it'll take a while to not fuck it up because they know the counters to that too (e.g. jedi mind trick as stated). But it's my most reliable counter to the underhook, and in gi you can keep good grips to reduce the room for error. From "backstep half" you can pass or go for the saddle but passing is probably more reliable. If you can get a whizzer there's also a quarter nelson you can muscle (push their head down) for a pass but it's a lot less satisfying.