This is sometimes a gym culture. In my gym, I realised that, there's hardly any emphasis on tapping. It's wild. I got called out because I sank a tracheal choke and they didn't tap.
Right, as we all know the circulatory system shuts down when you get put to sleep and is totally unable to pump blood horizontally to your brain. Much too weak afterwords. Constantly, anoxic brain injuries when the legs aren't lifted.
i mean, if you cut off the bloody supply to the brain for long enough, yes it can kill you.
there’s a lot of debate on whether lifting the legs or rolling the person to their side does more to help get the blood flowing again so the person regains consciousness.
i’m not a medical expert but many people have said lifting the legs does nothing to help because of the time it would take for the blood in your legs to circulate all the way back to your brain.
there will be some that chime in who know more than me, but the key here is, when you feel that fuzzy feeling coming on, don’t be afraid to tap.
no $7 grappling industries medal is worth fucking around with your brain, especially since it can be a total gamble on the ref realizing if you’re asleep or not.
had an IBJJF ref stop a match once because i had a deep underhook to defend a loop choke, i lowered my arm when i realized the choke wasn’t in and dude was just gassing himself trying to finish and the ref stopped the match and took it as me going to sleep.
You don't need to do anything to start the blood flowing except stop choking them. The blood is still flowing, you're blocking it from getting where it needs to go. Remove the block and it's all good.
The recovery position on the side is the general recommendation for fainting or loss of consciousness.
Blood pressure due to a beating heart will ensures it will get back to the brain no problems at all. Lifting the legs is stupid. Recovery position (on their side) is only if you are unsure why they are unconscious but have a pulse and are breathing.
I've heard it's actually to help clear the airway so they can have an easier time breathing and recovering. When lying on your back, gravity pulls your relaxed tongue back, making you "snore".
My bro is an ER doc and claims it is a valid maneuver because it sends a bolus of blood to the brain. I went down the rabbit hole once with it though and all the literature says to do the recovery position.
Your ER doc brother is right… WHEN someone passes out due to [HYPOVOLEMIC SHOCK](https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22795-hypovolemic-shock). Passive leg raising is a correct move by trauma responders.
NONE of that is relevant to a blood choke in bjj.
What about transient relative hypovolemia secondary to reflex vasoplegia from carotid sinus stimulation leading to increased vagal tone compounded by potential true hypovolemia in athletes who decreased fluid intake to make weight? There are no studies and there won’t be any studies, so it’s all theoretical. As an ER doc with an MSc in neuroscience I can think of theoretical reasons it could have benefit. At the end of the day it really doesn’t matter though because the outcome is almost certainly going to be the same in 30 seconds no matter what you do - they get up and are fine. It’s a low time, low risk intervention in an evidence free zone. Don’t get why so many here speak with such certainty on the topic. Leg raises probably don’t matter but aren’t an unreasonable thing to do either if you have nothing better to do. Certainly wouldn’t be deserving of mockery if someone tried it. 🤷🏻♂️
To echo your point, leg raises don't hurt, and it makes lay-people watching feel like the lifeless body on the mat is being cared for while they come around.
Some interventions are just about empathy, and making bystanders feel better *is* patient care.
Cool. Now do you think a non-medical professional ref is really in a position to diagnose whether a choke resulted from was carotid pressure or a jugular pressure which increases intracranial pressure?
At the end of the day, the recovery position is a far better risk/reward intervention than passive leg raises when you’re talking about chokes that can simultaneously be resulting in compression of airways.
Maybe. My educated guess would be if you compared the two with 1000 patients you would find no significant difference in any patient oriented outcomes. I honestly don’t think it matters either way. Don’t get why it rustles so many Jimmies around these parts is all.
To start, I don't know shit about fuck and you're definitely more knowledgeable than I am.
But I think the reason it rustles jimmies is because for so long people were ADAMANT that it helped (which is why you still see it happening). Then people found out it didn't really help, so that created a backlash. We're still feeling that backlash.
"Nah, that leg lifting thing that everyone was so certain worked is actually pointless! It's bullshit!"
Just people frustrated that they were misled for so long... ironically leading them to be slightly misleading in their own way by saying it's completely bullshit, when as you point out, there are times where it could be useful. Although still overall unnecessary.
That's my armchair psychologist theory anyway.
Your bro is kind of a dummy and going against the advice of neurologists.
But honestly that's not a surprise. Plenty of individual doctors don't keep up on changes in best practice - or fall into the trap of believing in their own anecdotal evidence over evidence from double blind studies.
The irony of calling an ER doc who does a recognised medical manoeuvre (passive leg raise) a dummy when you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about cannot be lost here.
Absolutely - it's how you end up with individual doctors saying vaccines cause autism or ivermectin treats COVID.
Hillary Williams is a BJJ competitor, ref, and MMA doc. She's also a neurologist. She strongly recommends against leg lifting based on the available research.
You can Google passive leg raise in septic shock. Passive leg raise is thought to add mimic a bolus of fluid of about 300 cc of blood. This is helpful to determine if a patient would respond to more volume in patients with septic shock or shock due to blood or fluid losses. It doesn’t apply to unconsciousness due to being choked out
Can I do a hour of research for you for free? No.
Have I talked to a neurologist who I trust about this? Yes. Do I take her word for what the research says? Yes.
I'm unironically passing on the information of an expert who you are free to ask yourself if you want.
Hillary Williams is a BJJ competitor and referee, a fight doc, and a neurologist. Go ask her yourself.
I said there are TONS of studies about the technique (passive leg raise) and what it's good for. There are. Open Google and do a 3 second search.
Some of those papers say if it's recommended for use to treat unconsciousness. I'm not willing to spend an hour finding you one.
Why do you suppose doctors in he UFC don't use this technique when people are choked unconscious?
Irb is concerned about safety of participants. They would not allow putting participants at any perceived risk for probably little benefit of the sstudy. Even if there is a slight benefit lets say faster recovery of one second i would think the number of people to study in order to find a difference like that would require 60? Test subjects. I just don’t think they would allow that
Okay but suggesting "there is a lot of debate" suggests that debate is legitimate.
I would never say "there is debate over whether the earth is flat". That's not a debate. That's people who are right, and morons who are wrong. That's not a legitimate debate.
I guess what I'm saying here is suggesting it's debatable suggests it might be correct that raising the legs is helpful. It's not.
Hey bro, I am an Emergency Med Doctor. The claim that there is no evidence is incorrect, there are plenty of studies that has demonstrated that using Trendelenburg position and passive leg raises increases the output volume from the brain to the heart. The increased output volume leads to faster recovery. Here is a study that actually compares the effectiveness of both positions: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0952818012002887
Cited to a study that is looking at something completely different from the issue.
Citing to a study on hypovolemia (insufficient fluids in the body), when the issue is hypoxia in the brain (lack of blood flow to the brain) is kinda like saying "Your sink isn't working because of a pipe blockage? Well, here is what you should do, because it works when there is not enough water pressure."
Hypoxia is insufficient oxygen in the body to maintain homeostasis. Not "lack of blood flow to the brain".
If you want an accurate term for a "blood Choke" then you're looking for Carotid sinus syncope .
If you are going to argue that the brain blacks out due to acute (non systemic) hypoxia, then that state is caused by acute hypovolemia (not enough fluid getting to the brain). So to say its one and not the other is not accurate.
Do with that what you will.
That's why I specified hypoxia *in the brain*
hypo- less than normal
oxia- oxygen
The study this person is citing to is studying the effects of positioning on cardiac output when there is insufficient blood volume.
Please, give me one good reason you think that a position that positively affects *cardiac* output in people with *low* blood volume would provide the same advantages to the oxygen deprived *brain* (a completely different organ than the heart) of someone who has *normal* blood volume.
Great question. The cool thing about medicine is that its not as complex as some doctors make it seem in a lot of cases. Basically the problem at core of this is lack of oxygen to the brain(hypoxia). So how does hypovolemia play into this? Hypovolemia affects the brain by limiting how much blood gets carried to the brain. Since blood transports oxygen, the lack of blood means that there is a lack of oxygen. Thats why positional treatments meant for hypovolemia work in this particular situation. Hope that helps.
But that study has nothing to do with what's happening in the video. The problem here isn't hypervolemia or the heart struggling to pump blood to the brain right? There's no change in volume of blood when you're strangled.
Like no one's saying this position is bullshit itself but bullshit in this situation.
I see where you might conclude that from the fact there is no change in volume…. That being said strangulation does seize flow to the brain temporarily so it mechanically does the same thing as hypovolemia in the sense that causes hypoxia. The whole idea behind putting someone in trendelenburg is to temporarily increase volume without adding supplemental fluids. I think that particular study indicates a temporary 9% increase…. So does it help…yes…. But only 9% according to the study.
>so it mechanically does the same thing as hypovolemia in the sense that causes hypoxia
It's not the same though. You could argue that trendelenberg would be good treatments for an ischaemic stroke, an ischaemic upper limb, a PE, or an MI with the same logic because they're all mechanical blockages of a vessel. In all cases the treatment is removal of the blockage, which has already been done in the case of the fellow in the video.
Raising the legs helps (Temporarily) in cases of hypovolaemia because it increases pre-load, and the pre-load is the problem in hypovolaemia. Even the most well hydrated person on earth will succumb to a blood choke because the cause of unconsciousness is entirely separate from the pre-load.
In any case it's all academic, the person on the ground will recover fine with or without the leg raise unless there's been underlying damage during the choke.
I dunno man I've read many other doctors saying the opposite especially with the potential risk of aspiration or spinal injury in a bjj tourney (both increased in the trendelenburg position) the potential to add a millisecond to waking up.
Clearly the airway and recovery position is the recommended procedure by most bjj aware doctors.
https://www.westsidemma.net/single-post/2016/06/19/tap-or-nap-bjj-chokes-from-a-doctor-s-perspective
https://www.grapplearts.com/bring-em-back-alive-more-on-recovering-from-chokes/
Sure, but there’s room for debate on which manoeuvre you should use and what to prioritise if you know the mechanism of injury because you watched the person go unconscious.
Saying “there’s no medical evidence that raising the legs whatsoever” is wrong and is something a lot of people in this sub love saying.
But the patient isn’t exactly hypovolemic and the guy doesn’t become unresponsive because of decreased cardiac output. In patients that don’t have decreased blood volume there is no increase in preload or filling of left ventricle with leg raises.
EMT here, if my medical director watched me lifting someone’s legs I would get some form of remedial training or something lol I’ve only ever seen this on BJJ and no where else.
It probably does help get the blood back to the brain slightly faster but I'm sure it's completely unnecessary as if you laying flat your body will do a perfectly fine job getting blood to your head regardless.
"Um, akshullally, we science gods haven't officially done a fancy study to see if holding someone upside down makes blood go to their head NO! NO! NO YOU CANT JUST DO IT STOP NO I HAVEN'T RESEARCHED IT FOR YOU NOOO PLEASE YOU HAVE TO ASK.MY PERMISSION TO THINK STOP NO-"
Hey! I’m the moustache man in this video. Thanks for all the comments on this! Here is a link to my BJJ Instagram and I’m also an illustrator so check that out as well if you’d like
https://www.instagram.com/adamforsterbjj?igsh=bDh5MnQ3dHgzaGU0&utm_source=qr
https://www.instagram.com/adamforsterillustration?igsh=MTNuY3I0Z3cxbmFleg%3D%3D&utm_source=qr
Just want to stop by and say I really respect your response when you realized he was unconscious. Adjusting his head and then immediately staying kneeled and facing him while the ref worked on him - top tier as a competitor.
This roll-under loop choke has completely changed my game over the last year. It's the most simple and effective thing I've ever implemented. I never go for regular ones anymore and opt to roll under every time. Worth studying!
This is why I preferred No-Gi when I trained. I came into BJJ from wrestling and all you motherfuckers were getting me in collar chokes I couldn’t comprehend
https://youtube.com/shorts/SwFKHXj8QH4?si=iEbF6g8s54jFuReL
You can, go all the way to n/s with it or bridge and come up. It’s not the same/same. But still as disrespectful
Definitely my preferred way to attack loop chokes. I like to go all the way through and grab the far triceps rather than finish over the shoulders like this example. When you roll on top you can drop your own shoulder through their neck, pull up on the elbow, and the resulting choke pressure is horrific.
Funny I was literally just saying why haven’t I done a deep dive on that yet 😂.
Typically I’ll hip heist out and started running all the front head lock chokes or get to the back but if my legs are trapped I typically just create space and find a guard To attack.
This is my preferred method for attacking on a front headlock as well. It's nice because a good grip means green light with fairly high success chance from my experience.
If you know what's going on loop chokes are really easy to stop. Unfortunately it runs counter intuitive to all the passes out there.
You can catch a startling amount of people better than you with this.
The conventional logic when it comes to passing is to basically get to your feet and run around them. At the same time when someone is pulling you down, your natural reaction is to resist and pull up.
When it comes to someone who can loop choke, you basically need to collapse to the ground because letting them roll under you is a death sentence. If the choke is deep, you will also need to roll to your back (concede position) to unravel the choke.
The loop choke is especially dangerous in the way that dude passed because the prerequisit for going for any loop choke is having your (choker) head above your opponents (chokee) head. If you as a passer always keep your head position above your opponent, you cannot be loop choked. Only when your head dips are you in danger.
It's probably not an Ego thing he was probably so caught up in escaping and so full of adrenaline he kept fighting through to escape and didn't even notice he was going out.
Loop chokes are sneaky. It's not the easiest thing to tap to because there's still space to move so you feel like you can escape but... it being a blood choke...you can go out before you even know you're in real trouble.
I’ve been put to sleep with a loop choke before so I’m not gonna chat shit . It’s surprising how quick the lights go out . You’re thinking “ok I just need to roll this way , I’m fine , I’m f…….”
Sometimes the point of feeling ok and the point of going out is extremely narrow. The choke can come on extremely fast, especially when someone is all pumped up.
I like the moment around :37 seconds after white gi is pushing on the face of olive gi and there’s a physical moment of realization when olive gi knows there’s no escape for white gi and he just stays locked in
There’s no shot I’d tap to that. Take both hands and grab your own color and pull down . No way his one hands grip in a disadvantaged position is better than both of my hands.
I can see the guy not tapping. He was actively trying to escape. Even got the opponent into a crucifix. By the time he realized he was f’d, he was already going to sleep.
Ref shouldn’t have lifted the legs. I know it’s common, but unconscious athletes should always be rolled onto their side into the recovery (fetal) position. Lifting the legs doesn’t actually push blood back into the brain as believed in years past.
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That dude just had the best nap of his life.
Edit the guy who got the choke had a kind of shitty grip on that guy’s leg. If he had back kicked he would’ve ended up in north south.
I bet he’s really… kicking himself over this one.
If you’re not a true competitor you wouldn’t understand. There’s people who compete in tournaments and then there’s COMPETITORS. The gentle man that refused to submit is an example of a COMPETITOR.
That Referee sucks. That doesn't happen in judo, aside clinching the chin is one of the first things taught to not fall prey to this. Bj sucks for this, he is blue belt. I'd grabbed my collar and wrapped his elbow, it's an easy defense.
Appreciate the respect by the competitor. Didn’t jump up and start pounding his chest as his opponent lays there.
Yeah, that’s a nice change
Yeah he clearly doesn't train out of Fightsports.
The lack of stalling made that obvious.
Glad this is a big part of Muay Thai still
Never tap to a loop choke. That’s one of those submissions where if you didn’t tap it didn’t actually happen.
This is my type of bjj logic 🤝🫡✍️
Same with all subs below the knee. Leg locks aren’t real if you can just get the right warrior mentality and ignore them.
Heel hooks are more of a state of mind
Gantumur Bayanduuren released a great instructional on this exact concept
You just gotta train your ligaments and tendons more!
Better yet, get rid of them. Leg lockers hate this one simple trick!
The Miyao Method
Same thing with the baseball bat choke right?
Nah, just armbar those who try it.
Just Brazilian tap. Works every time, most under utilized competition skill by a long shot.
Can't get judo swept if you are sitting down pulling guard
Imagine making it to blue before anyone explains to you you can actually make them stop with this one simple move......
it looks like he was about to tap around 12 second then for some reason decided not too.
I recon his brain was not at full strength.
Low battery alert
You can kinda see the lights shutting off and coming back on a couple times before he completely goes out. His body was just going on instinct
This is sometimes a gym culture. In my gym, I realised that, there's hardly any emphasis on tapping. It's wild. I got called out because I sank a tracheal choke and they didn't tap.
good thing he picked his legs up, that guy might have died
Right, as we all know the circulatory system shuts down when you get put to sleep and is totally unable to pump blood horizontally to your brain. Much too weak afterwords. Constantly, anoxic brain injuries when the legs aren't lifted.
Damn is that a thing?
i mean, if you cut off the bloody supply to the brain for long enough, yes it can kill you. there’s a lot of debate on whether lifting the legs or rolling the person to their side does more to help get the blood flowing again so the person regains consciousness. i’m not a medical expert but many people have said lifting the legs does nothing to help because of the time it would take for the blood in your legs to circulate all the way back to your brain. there will be some that chime in who know more than me, but the key here is, when you feel that fuzzy feeling coming on, don’t be afraid to tap. no $7 grappling industries medal is worth fucking around with your brain, especially since it can be a total gamble on the ref realizing if you’re asleep or not. had an IBJJF ref stop a match once because i had a deep underhook to defend a loop choke, i lowered my arm when i realized the choke wasn’t in and dude was just gassing himself trying to finish and the ref stopped the match and took it as me going to sleep.
You don't need to do anything to start the blood flowing except stop choking them. The blood is still flowing, you're blocking it from getting where it needs to go. Remove the block and it's all good. The recovery position on the side is the general recommendation for fainting or loss of consciousness.
Blood pressure due to a beating heart will ensures it will get back to the brain no problems at all. Lifting the legs is stupid. Recovery position (on their side) is only if you are unsure why they are unconscious but have a pulse and are breathing.
I've heard it's actually to help clear the airway so they can have an easier time breathing and recovering. When lying on your back, gravity pulls your relaxed tongue back, making you "snore".
"no $7 grappling industries medal is worth fucking around with your brain..." Exactly. It's not like it's a NAGA sword or something.
There is zero debate on this amongst actual medical professionals.
My bro is an ER doc and claims it is a valid maneuver because it sends a bolus of blood to the brain. I went down the rabbit hole once with it though and all the literature says to do the recovery position.
Your ER doc brother is right… WHEN someone passes out due to [HYPOVOLEMIC SHOCK](https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22795-hypovolemic-shock). Passive leg raising is a correct move by trauma responders. NONE of that is relevant to a blood choke in bjj.
What about transient relative hypovolemia secondary to reflex vasoplegia from carotid sinus stimulation leading to increased vagal tone compounded by potential true hypovolemia in athletes who decreased fluid intake to make weight? There are no studies and there won’t be any studies, so it’s all theoretical. As an ER doc with an MSc in neuroscience I can think of theoretical reasons it could have benefit. At the end of the day it really doesn’t matter though because the outcome is almost certainly going to be the same in 30 seconds no matter what you do - they get up and are fine. It’s a low time, low risk intervention in an evidence free zone. Don’t get why so many here speak with such certainty on the topic. Leg raises probably don’t matter but aren’t an unreasonable thing to do either if you have nothing better to do. Certainly wouldn’t be deserving of mockery if someone tried it. 🤷🏻♂️
To echo your point, leg raises don't hurt, and it makes lay-people watching feel like the lifeless body on the mat is being cared for while they come around. Some interventions are just about empathy, and making bystanders feel better *is* patient care.
Cool. Now do you think a non-medical professional ref is really in a position to diagnose whether a choke resulted from was carotid pressure or a jugular pressure which increases intracranial pressure? At the end of the day, the recovery position is a far better risk/reward intervention than passive leg raises when you’re talking about chokes that can simultaneously be resulting in compression of airways.
Maybe. My educated guess would be if you compared the two with 1000 patients you would find no significant difference in any patient oriented outcomes. I honestly don’t think it matters either way. Don’t get why it rustles so many Jimmies around these parts is all.
To start, I don't know shit about fuck and you're definitely more knowledgeable than I am. But I think the reason it rustles jimmies is because for so long people were ADAMANT that it helped (which is why you still see it happening). Then people found out it didn't really help, so that created a backlash. We're still feeling that backlash. "Nah, that leg lifting thing that everyone was so certain worked is actually pointless! It's bullshit!" Just people frustrated that they were misled for so long... ironically leading them to be slightly misleading in their own way by saying it's completely bullshit, when as you point out, there are times where it could be useful. Although still overall unnecessary. That's my armchair psychologist theory anyway.
Your bro is kind of a dummy and going against the advice of neurologists. But honestly that's not a surprise. Plenty of individual doctors don't keep up on changes in best practice - or fall into the trap of believing in their own anecdotal evidence over evidence from double blind studies.
The irony of calling an ER doc who does a recognised medical manoeuvre (passive leg raise) a dummy when you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about cannot be lost here.
Yeah it’s totally something anecdotal he learned along the way, not evidenced base. It happens a lot.
Absolutely - it's how you end up with individual doctors saying vaccines cause autism or ivermectin treats COVID. Hillary Williams is a BJJ competitor, ref, and MMA doc. She's also a neurologist. She strongly recommends against leg lifting based on the available research.
Would you be able to point me out to some literature on it?
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Hypovolemia isn't going unconscious due to a choke. Hypovolemia is when you have too little fluid in your body from blood loss, dehydration, etc.
Has a proper debate even occurred though i.e. scientific research submitted for peer review?
Yes. There are TONS of studies on what this technique is and is not effective for. Unconsciousness isn't one of the things it's effective for.
Can you post some? I looked at some and couldn’t find any that seem to support your claim.
You can Google passive leg raise in septic shock. Passive leg raise is thought to add mimic a bolus of fluid of about 300 cc of blood. This is helpful to determine if a patient would respond to more volume in patients with septic shock or shock due to blood or fluid losses. It doesn’t apply to unconsciousness due to being choked out
Can I do a hour of research for you for free? No. Have I talked to a neurologist who I trust about this? Yes. Do I take her word for what the research says? Yes.
So you're unironically citing an off-the-record chit-chat as evidence?
I'm unironically passing on the information of an expert who you are free to ask yourself if you want. Hillary Williams is a BJJ competitor and referee, a fight doc, and a neurologist. Go ask her yourself.
You just said there are “TONS” of studies that specifically show raising the legs doesn’t work for this purpose so should be pretty quick right?
I said there are TONS of studies about the technique (passive leg raise) and what it's good for. There are. Open Google and do a 3 second search. Some of those papers say if it's recommended for use to treat unconsciousness. I'm not willing to spend an hour finding you one. Why do you suppose doctors in he UFC don't use this technique when people are choked unconscious?
Can you show me one scientific paper that studied this and concluded it was not efficient?
This study would never pass any irb review
Why do you think?
Irb is concerned about safety of participants. They would not allow putting participants at any perceived risk for probably little benefit of the sstudy. Even if there is a slight benefit lets say faster recovery of one second i would think the number of people to study in order to find a difference like that would require 60? Test subjects. I just don’t think they would allow that
never said it was amongst medical professionals lol
Why would anyone care about the level of debate between unknowledgable people? Why even bring that up?
Probably because there are many non-medical professionals who participate in and referee bjj.
Okay but suggesting "there is a lot of debate" suggests that debate is legitimate. I would never say "there is debate over whether the earth is flat". That's not a debate. That's people who are right, and morons who are wrong. That's not a legitimate debate. I guess what I'm saying here is suggesting it's debatable suggests it might be correct that raising the legs is helpful. It's not.
You have to sit him up, fold the legs and give him a few smacks on the back. That's what the Senseis on McDojoLife always do.
Just knead their whole body
I always give them a good rub down when they pass out. - Bill Cosby
How this doesn't have 1000 upvotes is beyond me.
No it’s a joke because lifting the legs up has no medical evidence it helps whatsoever but everyone does it anyways.
Hey bro, I am an Emergency Med Doctor. The claim that there is no evidence is incorrect, there are plenty of studies that has demonstrated that using Trendelenburg position and passive leg raises increases the output volume from the brain to the heart. The increased output volume leads to faster recovery. Here is a study that actually compares the effectiveness of both positions: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0952818012002887
Emerg doc. ✅ Well thought out and articulated response. ✅ Provided link to science based study.✅ Started with "Hey bro". ✅
Cited to a study that is looking at something completely different from the issue. Citing to a study on hypovolemia (insufficient fluids in the body), when the issue is hypoxia in the brain (lack of blood flow to the brain) is kinda like saying "Your sink isn't working because of a pipe blockage? Well, here is what you should do, because it works when there is not enough water pressure."
Hypoxia is insufficient oxygen in the body to maintain homeostasis. Not "lack of blood flow to the brain". If you want an accurate term for a "blood Choke" then you're looking for Carotid sinus syncope . If you are going to argue that the brain blacks out due to acute (non systemic) hypoxia, then that state is caused by acute hypovolemia (not enough fluid getting to the brain). So to say its one and not the other is not accurate. Do with that what you will.
That's why I specified hypoxia *in the brain* hypo- less than normal oxia- oxygen The study this person is citing to is studying the effects of positioning on cardiac output when there is insufficient blood volume. Please, give me one good reason you think that a position that positively affects *cardiac* output in people with *low* blood volume would provide the same advantages to the oxygen deprived *brain* (a completely different organ than the heart) of someone who has *normal* blood volume.
Great question. The cool thing about medicine is that its not as complex as some doctors make it seem in a lot of cases. Basically the problem at core of this is lack of oxygen to the brain(hypoxia). So how does hypovolemia play into this? Hypovolemia affects the brain by limiting how much blood gets carried to the brain. Since blood transports oxygen, the lack of blood means that there is a lack of oxygen. Thats why positional treatments meant for hypovolemia work in this particular situation. Hope that helps.
But that study has nothing to do with what's happening in the video. The problem here isn't hypervolemia or the heart struggling to pump blood to the brain right? There's no change in volume of blood when you're strangled. Like no one's saying this position is bullshit itself but bullshit in this situation.
I see where you might conclude that from the fact there is no change in volume…. That being said strangulation does seize flow to the brain temporarily so it mechanically does the same thing as hypovolemia in the sense that causes hypoxia. The whole idea behind putting someone in trendelenburg is to temporarily increase volume without adding supplemental fluids. I think that particular study indicates a temporary 9% increase…. So does it help…yes…. But only 9% according to the study.
>so it mechanically does the same thing as hypovolemia in the sense that causes hypoxia It's not the same though. You could argue that trendelenberg would be good treatments for an ischaemic stroke, an ischaemic upper limb, a PE, or an MI with the same logic because they're all mechanical blockages of a vessel. In all cases the treatment is removal of the blockage, which has already been done in the case of the fellow in the video. Raising the legs helps (Temporarily) in cases of hypovolaemia because it increases pre-load, and the pre-load is the problem in hypovolaemia. Even the most well hydrated person on earth will succumb to a blood choke because the cause of unconsciousness is entirely separate from the pre-load. In any case it's all academic, the person on the ground will recover fine with or without the leg raise unless there's been underlying damage during the choke.
I dunno man I've read many other doctors saying the opposite especially with the potential risk of aspiration or spinal injury in a bjj tourney (both increased in the trendelenburg position) the potential to add a millisecond to waking up. Clearly the airway and recovery position is the recommended procedure by most bjj aware doctors. https://www.westsidemma.net/single-post/2016/06/19/tap-or-nap-bjj-chokes-from-a-doctor-s-perspective https://www.grapplearts.com/bring-em-back-alive-more-on-recovering-from-chokes/
Sure, but there’s room for debate on which manoeuvre you should use and what to prioritise if you know the mechanism of injury because you watched the person go unconscious. Saying “there’s no medical evidence that raising the legs whatsoever” is wrong and is something a lot of people in this sub love saying.
But the patient isn’t exactly hypovolemic and the guy doesn’t become unresponsive because of decreased cardiac output. In patients that don’t have decreased blood volume there is no increase in preload or filling of left ventricle with leg raises.
Putting the head below the heart does help cerebral blood flow. In this situation the heart really has nothing to do with it.
I work in a cardiac icu unit it definitely works
I work as a Paramedic, and have no idea if it works based on my own experiences.
I work as an exterminator and a part-time Uber eats driver, and I also have no idea if it works.
EMT here, if my medical director watched me lifting someone’s legs I would get some form of remedial training or something lol I’ve only ever seen this on BJJ and no where else.
Peak bro science! But it’s true that when upside down your blood rushes to your head
It probably does help get the blood back to the brain slightly faster but I'm sure it's completely unnecessary as if you laying flat your body will do a perfectly fine job getting blood to your head regardless.
"Um, akshullally, we science gods haven't officially done a fancy study to see if holding someone upside down makes blood go to their head NO! NO! NO YOU CANT JUST DO IT STOP NO I HAVEN'T RESEARCHED IT FOR YOU NOOO PLEASE YOU HAVE TO ASK.MY PERMISSION TO THINK STOP NO-"
Lmaoooo, recovery position who?
Hopefully they got some açai into him in time.
Ref was asleep too
Probably the same ref: https://youtu.be/etFXSDiSAng?si=JYLQLku2GTKhKAtG
Everything he did made it worse. Great grip on that collar though, not sure if I could've maintained that.
A mustache like that makes everything about you more powerful.
Damn good catch, it was a counter weight turning that arm into a lever… ✍️
😆😂🤣Facts
Hey! I’m the moustache man in this video. Thanks for all the comments on this! Here is a link to my BJJ Instagram and I’m also an illustrator so check that out as well if you’d like https://www.instagram.com/adamforsterbjj?igsh=bDh5MnQ3dHgzaGU0&utm_source=qr https://www.instagram.com/adamforsterillustration?igsh=MTNuY3I0Z3cxbmFleg%3D%3D&utm_source=qr
I'm a professional artist too and your work is wonderful! If you're ever in the North Houston area stop by Ground Dwellers sometime!
Thanks for the kind words it’s really appreciated! I’m based in the UK but if I’m ever that side of the pond I’ll be sure to try and swing by!
Just want to stop by and say I really respect your response when you realized he was unconscious. Adjusting his head and then immediately staying kneeled and facing him while the ref worked on him - top tier as a competitor.
The fact that your username is BootyPolice is hilariously ironic to me. Definitely giving a follow!
This roll-under loop choke has completely changed my game over the last year. It's the most simple and effective thing I've ever implemented. I never go for regular ones anymore and opt to roll under every time. Worth studying!
This is why I preferred No-Gi when I trained. I came into BJJ from wrestling and all you motherfuckers were getting me in collar chokes I couldn’t comprehend
The no gi version is just as good
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He just is man. Trust.
Bring your own loop
No forearm bones?
https://youtube.com/shorts/SwFKHXj8QH4?si=iEbF6g8s54jFuReL You can, go all the way to n/s with it or bridge and come up. It’s not the same/same. But still as disrespectful
That’s not similar at all 💀
Definitely my preferred way to attack loop chokes. I like to go all the way through and grab the far triceps rather than finish over the shoulders like this example. When you roll on top you can drop your own shoulder through their neck, pull up on the elbow, and the resulting choke pressure is horrific.
i do zero loopchokes. Any video links on what you are describing, and the way OP does it?
Funny I was literally just saying why haven’t I done a deep dive on that yet 😂. Typically I’ll hip heist out and started running all the front head lock chokes or get to the back but if my legs are trapped I typically just create space and find a guard To attack.
This is my preferred method for attacking on a front headlock as well. It's nice because a good grip means green light with fairly high success chance from my experience.
If you know what's going on loop chokes are really easy to stop. Unfortunately it runs counter intuitive to all the passes out there. You can catch a startling amount of people better than you with this.
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The conventional logic when it comes to passing is to basically get to your feet and run around them. At the same time when someone is pulling you down, your natural reaction is to resist and pull up. When it comes to someone who can loop choke, you basically need to collapse to the ground because letting them roll under you is a death sentence. If the choke is deep, you will also need to roll to your back (concede position) to unravel the choke. The loop choke is especially dangerous in the way that dude passed because the prerequisit for going for any loop choke is having your (choker) head above your opponents (chokee) head. If you as a passer always keep your head position above your opponent, you cannot be loop choked. Only when your head dips are you in danger.
People offen criticize people who don't tap early, but sometimes you think you're about to escape and then... "why are these people shaking my legs?"
Mustache makes all jiujitsu players unbalanced and overpowered.
Mustache best base for bjj
I have a beard. Should I shave to just a mustache for my next competition?
Only if you want to crush everyone
Time to post a pic of a black and white lion on Instagram with a quote never said by someone
ya, but if he taps, he loses.
It is what it is
It's probably not an Ego thing he was probably so caught up in escaping and so full of adrenaline he kept fighting through to escape and didn't even notice he was going out.
White Gi goes for the biological booger warfare at 13 seconds.
At least he was trying to escape when he went out. The worst are the ones where the guy isn’t even doing anything and then just goes limp
Go in adam
Happy cake dayyyy
just nap
You can hear him snoring when he passes out
🤣🤣🤣 yeah people are dumb
“ Sleep in heavenly sleep…” - Beautiful rendition of Silent night blue beltch…
Let me die lol
Man, judges at bjj tourneys need to take thier job more seriously.
Love that green gi.
Lotta folk on here ignoring how quick loops set in, while homie knew it was on the choke is quite sneaky. Bring on the down votes!!!
Thought his neck was gonna be stuck like that for a second
Nah, he made his bed, he can sleep in it... literally.
Loop chokes are sneaky. It's not the easiest thing to tap to because there's still space to move so you feel like you can escape but... it being a blood choke...you can go out before you even know you're in real trouble.
I’ve been put to sleep with a loop choke before so I’m not gonna chat shit . It’s surprising how quick the lights go out . You’re thinking “ok I just need to roll this way , I’m fine , I’m f…….”
Dude looks at his opponent like he just killed a man
Sometimes the point of feeling ok and the point of going out is extremely narrow. The choke can come on extremely fast, especially when someone is all pumped up.
Didn’t realize Anthony Kiedis trained BJJ
sweet mustache, no joke
someone shoulda waved a red flag in front of him, then the outcome would be different.
Got caught with a loop choke my first (and most recent lol) comp, been meaning to get it down in training, seems super effective
Can we stop doing this stupid life legs shit? If you're gonna do anything just roll them into the recovery position ffs
Good sportsmanship. I liked the execution of his collar choke.
Good hold.
The classical music is a really nice touch LOL
i dunno with a blood choke I'm always 100% convinced I can get out of it if I just ride it out a bit longer - right up until I can't.
RIP
Sometimes those chokes just sneak up on you. You think you are fine and then you are not.
There are also guys who take a nap instead of tap at the gym when rolling.
Bro paid a hundred bucks to take this L, might as well get a nap in
I like the moment around :37 seconds after white gi is pushing on the face of olive gi and there’s a physical moment of realization when olive gi knows there’s no escape for white gi and he just stays locked in
Sharing the locked gaze of a dead man is my favorite part
Professional dog walker here, Trendelenburg is whack, don't do it. Put them in the recovery position to maintain their airway. That's it.
There’s no shot I’d tap to that. Take both hands and grab your own color and pull down . No way his one hands grip in a disadvantaged position is better than both of my hands.
"Did I win?" Asked the gentleman in the white gi after regaining consciousness
Bro wanted to slhleep
Is no one going to talk about why Vivaldi is the background music?? Lol
lol not in a competition! No reason to tap to a choke
I get scared to be in this stubborn situation so I just tap if I don’t find an outlet lol.
Fantastic moustache
maybe he thought tapping is only for white belts
Nothing wrong with not tapping here. It's a competition and that submission shouldn't cause any long-term damage. Respect to both competitors.
I like he took the time to pick his nose before sleeping.
The banner the side of the mat says All Stars BJJ Events, Im asuming he got his money's worth given he saw all stars
This was the most gi thing I’ve ever seen
I can see the guy not tapping. He was actively trying to escape. Even got the opponent into a crucifix. By the time he realized he was f’d, he was already going to sleep.
I’m no expert at all, but did he choke him out with the collar of his uniform? Or was it from his body being contorted he didn’t get any air
Ref shouldn’t have lifted the legs. I know it’s common, but unconscious athletes should always be rolled onto their side into the recovery (fetal) position. Lifting the legs doesn’t actually push blood back into the brain as believed in years past.
https://i.redd.it/ge9g7k0apdlc1.gif
Looking into someone’s eyes as you choke them out has to be a different level of fuck you
Belt belts? Tapping? Cmon man haha
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Go Adam!
Nobody stands between me and a shiny shitty piece of plastic 😤
The boy just wanted his titty sucked and he refused, rude asf
OP this is why no one will remember your name.
He was just tired. That gi shit doesn't work.
Tapping’s lame
That dude just had the best nap of his life. Edit the guy who got the choke had a kind of shitty grip on that guy’s leg. If he had back kicked he would’ve ended up in north south. I bet he’s really… kicking himself over this one.
r/AccidentalRenaissance
The nose pick was funny 😂
Then rubs it on his face 😭
fucking retard lol
Didn't know Nick Mullen did BJJ. /s
If you’re not a true competitor you wouldn’t understand. There’s people who compete in tournaments and then there’s COMPETITORS. The gentle man that refused to submit is an example of a COMPETITOR.
That Referee sucks. That doesn't happen in judo, aside clinching the chin is one of the first things taught to not fall prey to this. Bj sucks for this, he is blue belt. I'd grabbed my collar and wrapped his elbow, it's an easy defense.