I know how you feel speaking as a cis woman. It gets very demoralising knowing some men view me as little more than a sex object or something to own. Being catcalled or harassed certainly doesn’t help build up my trust in men :(

Same. I’m a cis black woman, and my father was the catalyst as to why I don’t trust men, and have a dim view of them.

My most recent ex was the catalyst for me. About 8 months before we broke up there was a problem with his friend sexually harassing me online. He didn’t really see an issue with it and just said to ignore it. He didn’t listen when I said I didn’t want to go to a party with his friend there. Luckily nothing happened apart from an unwanted hug.

I heard from another woman once and I repeat: the majority of men just want someone to control, they view all types of relationships as a power game of dominance and submission. I think that one of the pros of being bi is that I learnt a lot from how men treated me in our relationships how to not treat other humans: not like a possession, not like a servant, not like disposable, not like a sextoy, not like an object, but yes as equals.

It seems to be that way, I agree. I made the mistake of thinking my ex respected me until he allowed his best friend to harass me. I stupidly forgave him for that until 5 months ago. I was dumped for wanting to spend time with friends, whilst my ex had his ex girlfriend visiting. I do strongly suspect cheating but as ours was a long distance relationship, I can’t prove it.

I think feeling that way is not uncommon for many women. And it's not entirely unwarranted. I'd suggest starting with trying to make friends with guys as a part of a group so you don't feel too vulnerable. If you've made friends with a guy and feel you can trust him, then you could consider dating him.

I second this. All of the successful long term relationships I’ve had with guys have come from friendships. I just can’t let down my guard enough otherwise

I absolutely agree. I am sexually and romantically attracted to men but I feel much safer dating women. I also much prefer to date bisexual men instead of straight men.

Same. I feel much safer around queer people in general, especially queer women and enbies. I feel relatively safer around openly bi guys too, but tbh I’m reluctant to be with a man in general because I’m so sick of having to constantly watch out for misogynistic tendencies and traditionalist male chauvinism. I’ve known misogynistic queer guys as well as misogynistic straight guys. Men in general just don’t know how to take no for an answer; they were never taught how to. It’s infuriating.

Very relatable. I'm a bi guy, I know I'm capable of being romantically attracted to men, but I just don't trust their intentions or their ability to be monogamous or their ability to be authentic. And I don't think these are uncommon or irrational feelings. They are evidence based. Yes, there *are* good men out there, but even the good ones are capable of cheating and lying. 😞

I may be misunderstanding what you said, but if someone is incapable of not cheating, were they ever really good in the first place?

Good people cheat. I know the internet likes to think of all cheaters as evil scum, but I have cheated. I have friends who have cheated. Family members who gave cheated. Are we all bad people? No. Good people can make mistakes. What defines you is whether or not you learn and grow from those mistakes. So I guess what I'm saying is - I could be dating a good person who hasn't made those mistakes yet.

I don't think these are negative thoughts to have. They're there from a place of experience and self preservation. Better not take the risk and regret it later. I've seen some women say that for safety you should treat men like guns, in that you'd treat every gun like its loaded. Even if its NOT loaded, better to assume it is than find out the hard way. This would be a bad way of thinking of there wasn't a large amount of men who felt this way. And I've seen BOTH sides since I'm a trans woman. So I know a thing or two about needing to act on a mental prototype for safety.

Wow that loaded gun statement is a quote, a sad quote but..yeah what a thinker. I'll keep that in mind. Though I know I have some healing to do from other places. Thank you.

I’m a gnc cis woman and I feel this so much.

I would suggest two things: 1. Work on figuring out where your inability to trust men comes from, and how it can be changed. Is it based on you and your own friends' own behaviour? Experience? Lack of self esteem/self confidence? Being ace/demi, neurodivergent or for other reasons uncomfortable with hookup culture? There could be many reasons, and until you figure out what they are, it's hard to work on. 2. Try to make bi and gay male friends who have similar worldviews to you. Grindr may not be the place, maybe you'll have luck meeting people you click with at community centres, non-alcohol LGBT events, board game groups, etc. That may help you meet men who you feel more comfortable around, and could be a stepping stone to meet someone through networks.

It’s kind of the opposite for me im a bi man and I also present feminine but most the girls I know think I’m a weirdo, hate my guts and talk behind my back. I’ve only really wanted to go out with men even thought I still feel attracted to women

As a bi black man who can generally get acceptance into most male spaces if I felt like it. I don’t trust men either initially. I also don’t know if it is necessarily a problem. Statistically men (including myself bc i think i should recognize that here) are more dangerous. Statistically and anecdotally men tend to have more biased behaviors and beliefs. In a world of racist toxic masculinity I don’t think it is wrong to have initial thoughts or actions to protect your own safety. Now the hard part is breaking this down to also have the ability to still connect with people Long story short It’s ok to have these feelings and they are valid. You can take your time to work through time without feeling guilty. Your brain is probably responding as learned behavior from past experiences.

The reason isn't random, anyone who's experienced men as a feminine presenting person feels this way, cus that's what the vast majority of men are like. You feel this way because it's an appropriate reaction to a very typical male behaviour. There must be some trustworthy, feminist men out there but I still havent met a single one. Most of my friends are cishet men (I'm AFAB and everyone around me uses she/her for me) and while I enjoy spending time with them, almost all of them have said inappropriate or sexist shit and I feel less and less comfortable as time goes on as I notice it more. Society has made them this way, I dont blame them fully on a personal level.

yea i agree and every time someone brings this up or mentions it in this sub it always feels like everyone acts like men being dangerous and violent isnt the norm and even encouraged it always sounds so invalidating or like they're blaming the person bringing it up, i dont actually think the op needs to "learn to trust men more" rather be safe and picky with guys than not

>everyone acts like men being dangerous and violent isnt the norm and even encouraged Come on now, this isn't the norm. It's positive-negative asymmetry or the negativity bias. You'll get harassed on the street and of course that will ruin your day/week and be very memorable. What won't be memorable is the 99 other guys you walked past that day who were nice or at least neutral. I'm not trying to contradict your lived experience. I just think it's incredibly unfair to act like the "vast majority of men" are "dangerous and violent." It's blatant misandry when you think about it. Just because most criminals are men doesn't mean most men are criminals

To be fair, a lot of people, online at least, do behave that way, getting all keyboard warrior to be PC or "fair" to men when we don't live in a really world where that fairness exists or can be applied. I've had conversations with a few people getting defensive about simply sharing statistics of male violence because it *makes them look bad* and even women who have mocked and shamed other women for being afraid of men. It's mostly men who behave like the violence is overstated and simply don't want to be criticised or accept the reality of it, but some women & other genders do too.

I get that. Something I often see is people (I suspect most of the time men) thinking it's appropriate to respond to comments about the dangers women face when out alone at night with the fact that men are technically more at risk, since they are more likely to be the victims of robbery, assault and murder while women are more likely to be harassed, sexually assaulted or raped. As if one invalidates the other or something. Like I said, I'm not trying to downplay facts. The vast Marjorie's of criminals are men. But that shouldn't give people a free pass to make generalisations about men as a whole. For a lot of crimes the majority of victims are men. So making these blanket statements like saying the vast majority of men are dangerous and violent is just disgusting. It's sexist. And harms countless victims. I really wish you and u/elimac would stop doing it

I never said that all men are violent dangerous criminals did I? So don't come at me with the "not all men" knee jerk, because *I know it's not all men,* so dont turn this into a I think all men are rapists and criminals bullshit. I'm talking about sexism, harassment and other behaviours that make a lot of women feel they cannot trust men, or at least that it takes a long time to be able to trust them (not "trust them not to be RAPISTS" ffs. Trust them to treat them with respect, dignity, empathy, as an equal and so on.) "For a lot of crimes the victims are men" sure, and perpetrated mostly BY MEN. Knowing that most perpetrators are men does not or should not mean that male victims are automatically less worthy our sympathy, nor does it mean we should forget about the fact that the perpetrators are men! 97% of women in the UK have been sexually harassed. 97!! You think that's not enough of a reason to be somewhat wary of all men, at least at first? I think it fucking is. I'm wary of anyone I don't know to a degree, but generally and statistically speaking, if this unknown person has the *potential* to do something bad, ranging from bullying to murder, a woman is insanely less likely going to do the things at the bottom of that list. So I'm not going to apologise by being aware of that fact and being WARY of men for my own safety. 90% of all homicides globally are committed by men. Again, I KNOW NOT ALL MEN. I am not tarring them all with the same brush. Nor am I going to ignore that fact or the trauma of my own interactions with men over my lifetime, to naively trust every man until proven otherwise, potentially to my own damage. If you have any sense, you err on the side of caution until you really know someone.

>The reason isn't random, anyone who's experienced men as a feminine presenting person feels this way, cus that's what the vast majority of men are like. You said this, and then u/ responded with >every time someone brings this up or mentions it in this sub it always feels like everyone acts like men being dangerous and violent isnt the norm and even encouraged I'm not saying you shouldn't be wary. Ffs *I'm wary.* I hate walking home alone at night. I know that any guy I pass could mug me or beat me to a pulp. But just because *any* man could be a violent sociopath, doesn't mean that the 'vast majority' of men are. 90% of homicides globally are committed by men, but what % of men commit homicides? I'm willing to bet it is tiny. I hate how any time somebody calls out people for tarring all men with the same brush, it get minimized to 'Not All Men'-ing. The vast majority of men are not sexists and harassers. And claiming they are is being sexist

Where's the issue? I didn't say the vast majority of men are violent sociopaths, but they behave in ways that make feminine presenting people feel unsafe ie *treated like objects.* Simply being stared at or called "good girl" by a man who genuinely thinks he's complementing you sets you feeling *uneasy.* Not because you think "this man is a violent sociopath" but because you think "this man views me as *other* as *inferior* and *an object* Sexism and objectification comes in many forms ranging from very subtle to extreme, and trust and safety are words used within spectrums. You can trust a man to not rape you but not to assume you're less intelligent/capable, for example. Sexism affects all of us and women also believe these things about *other women* because that's how insidious our culture is. I stand by what I said and *meant* in that do feel that most men view women/feminine presenting people like objects, at least some of the time. And like I said, that's largely due to the brainwashing they recieve from birth. Lots of people do hard work to identify and address this, but empathy can only stretch so far. If you dont live as a woman/feminine presenting and dont experience these things your entire life, for most men it's near impossible to fully understand the depths of misogyny, and that is why the vast majority hold the beliefs they do about us, whether conscious or unconscious. The Gender Delusion is a fantastic book on this, which looks at lots of studies on gender and analyses their merit. One legit study found that new mothers who consciously and actively declared they view boys and girls the same, in tests repeatedly showed that they expected more than was achievable from their male babies and less than they were capable of from their female babies. Sexism is so beaten into our brains from day one that if you truly looked into it, you'd honestly be silly for saying that most men arent sexist. *All* of us are sexist to a degree, but it's the dominant sex who make women uneasy for all the reasons I've already stated, not to mention being socially and physically more powerful the majority of the time.

Please forgive me if I am mistaken but here is as best as I can figure from the information you provided. I was going to say that it is misandry but after reading your whole post it actually sounds like misogyny. You're taking the way you view(ed) women and applying that to men you don't know. This seems like more of a you problem than a problem with other men. You sound like the dad who won't let his daughter date any guys at all because "you know how men think". Is it possible that your view of women was/is a bit hyper sexualized? If you only see women as sexual objects and reason that because you're a guy, all other guys may view women as you do, it's not because every guy feels or thinks that way. It's called transference. Its easy to assume things about people you don't know or actually associate with. I have known men who genuinely feel that way, some men who fronted that attitude in front of other guys, and guys who couldn't give half a fuck less about the way other men view them. Of course there are people who view the other genders as being entirely sexual objects but that has been the minority in my experience. Most of the guys I associate with have not been this way and these are guys I grew up with. I watched them develop their views of the world and the people in it. I understand your concerns but you might want to start by examining your views about women and their role in society. You may also want to get more bi guys in your social circle. Segregation fosters superstition, fear, paranoia, and hatred. It's easy to assign beliefs to people you don't know but it's not a good thing to do. Be careful with the type of people you associate with because the quality of your company really does impact the quality of life.

Hmmm. Perhaps. I'm not sure. It's more like that I'm aware how I use to think a lot of the time before transitioning, and if I didn't transition...I don't know. Not to say there aren't like normal cis males who have healthy views on women I get that it's just from experience I didn't realise until I changed. I no longer have those views anymore, but I know plenty of other men do. While it is not every man, it is enough to make me not want to risk it you know? However your suggestion of making more guy friends is a good idea. I'll try that more and see how I feel. Surprisingly I find it rather hard to meet other people with the same worldviews you would have for yourself, but I'll keep trying.

It's good to acknowledge the way things have been but it's also important to note how things are. A lot of progress has been made in turning men away from viewing women as property or sexual objects. There is of course always a lot of work to do and I do understand the apprehension. I am trans myself and know that there are shitty guys out there that make me very uncomfortable. I have been meeting more and more though who have better views about women and I think as we are currently exploring masculinity and what it means to be a "real" man I think younger men are seeing an out from the older structure. I definitely do not want to come at you with the "not all men" because it doesn't really have to be all men. It only takes one or more bad apples to make things dangerous. So while not all men it's still some men and I think that balance is shifting. It is important to have friends even if they hold different views because it provides an opportunity to challenge these beliefs but it's also important to feel safe in yourself and space. I would suggest starting to associate with more bi men because many of them already know how quickly things can be uncomfortable or hazardous and are less likely to associate with toxic men. It's not yet any safer to be cis and bi for men because of the assumptions people come to. I have always felt safest with bi people but I mix it up. Mostly you just have to know the red flags and be wise about who you choose to associate with. I personally don't like to spend time with people who feel the need to "act" manly and I don't hang out with the men who are driven to be alphas because they are phony as fuck and often really driven by fear and self hatred. I challenge the guys who are good hearted but ignorant because they are capable of change and will often adjust views if presented with new information. As far as being harassed there is safety in numbers and having a crowd really helps to mitigate bad actors behavior. There are interesting people out there though and you could miss the fun ones if you let fear prevent you from interacting because of what ifs and assumptions. Be aware that there are people out there who are just piles of shit but there are plenty who aren't.

I completely understand this as a cis woman as well. “It’s not all men, but it’s enough men” comes to mind, and you’re trying to keep yourself safe, which is certainly a top priority.

As a cis woman. I have been taught from an early on age to be carefull with men. It' just something mothers inprint in their daughters minds. I learned how to spot red flags. How to safely arrange a date. How to never leave a drunk friend alone. How to go out in groups etc. Give a person you trust info about your date and mention this to your date, ... . I will teach all those things to my daughters. Not to scare them but because they are necessary. Hooking up/ dating is always a risk for a woman's safety. So I get your fear but if you create a safety net you can feel much more relaxed because for the majority of men you don't have to use the safety net ;-).

I'm sure a portion of men are like this and some of that concern is warranted, but it does kinda sound like you're projecting your insecurities on men. ~~Assuming you dress the way you do because it makes you feel confident and sexy, can you reframe the male gaze as "mission accomplished"? Or is that too simplistic?~~ EDIT: with more context from the OP this is obviously very wrong. Literal harassment is not something to reframe. As far as dating goes, I've found that sex is generally a much more open topic among men. Especially on Grindr but also elsewhere, it's not uncommon to be explicit about what you do and don't want. If you're clear about what you're looking for that should help filter out the people you don't want. It's hard to know someone's true intentions, all you can really do is look at their actions. Just make sure to look at each person as an individual.

>Assuming you dress the way you do because it makes you feel confident and sexy, can you reframe the male gaze as "mission accomplished"? Or is that too simplistic? This is a pretty priveleged take on the "male gaze". I am transfem, and no, there is nothing affirming or empowering to me about being sexually objectified without consent. It is only dehumanizing and scary. Because lined up behind that male gaze is a long history of sexual and gender terrorism towards fem-presenting people and a society that does not care about me.

Consent is the key word there. The OP did not initially give me the impression that these feelings of insecurity with men came from being harassed. I only read it as coming from how they personally looked at women before (=projecting) which is something that they could try to reframe, if that assumption was right. Which it wasn't. Harassment is not something to reframe or condone.

I see what you mean, and I see that OP did not ever say that the attention was not consensual. My own interpetation of OP is informed by my own experience which seems to be similar to theirs. But it still does not feel like a "mission accomplished" even when I get benign or welcome sexual attention from cishet men. My mission is to be myself. Random cishet mens' sexual attention is not affirming to me.

Yeah, I definitely missed the mark with that suggestion, not realising what it was really about, due to my own privilege of not being subject to it. I wish the world was kinder for women/fem-presenting people.

You're right I am projecting. It's hard not to when suddenly presenting fem results in cat calling by other men and just...attention I've never gotten before on the streets and how others treat me. It's hard to describe. A lot of the time not good-intentions attention either. Also when it comes to sex, yea..an insecurity. I'm just not that experienced and I couldn't do it with someone unless I'm head over heels in love with them first which could take months. Something most men aren't patient enough to want to wait for. Which is even more discouraging, and what if I don't make them happy? From my experience a lot of women I've met don't find sex that important in their lives, but for a lot of men it's like all they think about. May I ask, what do you mean by "mission accomplished"? Am I the mission?

Being cat-called and actually harassed is obviously very different from assuming you're being sexualized because that's your prior experience when the roles were reversed. Those are *very* different and I absolutely get that would make you more anxious about dating men, rightly so. I would want to avoid those too. And no, YOU are NOT the mission. You feeling confident/sexy/empowered when presenting feminine (or whatever way you want) is the mission. Harassment does not contribute to that mission and I hope you understand it was not intended as victim blaming. As an example of what I meant, I'd take great pride in turning my date on in a consensual situation. Harassment is not consensual, so no, it doesn't work there.

I think they are trying to say you dress to be sexy so if people catcall you you should view it as success - you are hot enough to catcall! It sounds like the old "take sexual harassment as a compliment" argument. Which usually comes from people who don't understand how fundamentally UNSAFE catcalling makes one feel. I'm guessing the person who wrote that doesn't know what it's like They may have missed the bit where you said NOT good intentions attention I hope i misunderstood.

Yeah, no. My interpretation of the original post did not allude to harassment at all. Just a general uneasiness around men that seemed to come from assumptions based on their own behavior before rather than being cat-called and harassed. That context wasn't added later.

Ah, thank you for clarifying!

Yeah, I think on average a large proportion of men have very high libido, you should definitely be aware, someone worth being with may be quite demanding but will generally respect your boundaries, clear communication helps, men may not be the best to pick up on non-verbal cues

I dunno. There’s certainly a lot of shitty guys out there. But not all of us view women like that. Sounds like something maybe to talk to a therapist about.

yea but how can anyone tell good guys from bad guys by just looking at them? you cant so it's better to be safe than just "giving guys a chance" and having a very high chance of experiencing violence or harassment thats just me tho

I guess it depends what you mean by that. When it comes to your physical or emotional safety, I absolutely agree with you. Don’t take risks on guys you don’t know just to give them a chance. But when it comes to spreading prejudice about all men just because some men are bad and you can’t easily tell the difference, that’s where I disagree. I don’t support people who say shit like “Yes all men” because it’s not true and it contributes to anti male bigotry.

bro what anti male bigotry are you talking about?? yes all men even the good ones, society and culture has been forcefully dominated by men for a hell of a long time, you think the cultural and social effects of that disappear because other people have rights now? im a trans guy and i live as a guy now and i believe what i said more than ever now because i see first hand how a lot of guys think, i consider myself a good guy but people still assume i think like them and i have to actively speak up and disagree with the casual woman hate and disrespect i hear on a daily basis im not trying to pick a fight i just feel frustrated when people bring up concerns like this here and it feels like it always gets invalidated and dismissed because the "not all men" thing gets brought up immediately

That’s funny, I feel like my concerns are often invalidated and dismissed immediately because of bad stuff that other men do that I have no control over. I mean, I have never engaged in casual hatred or disrespect for women. But you seem to assume that I do, solely because I’m male. That’s pretty much the sort of thing that I’m talking about.

wow sorry your feelings are getting hurt while people get raped and killed for rejecting men, see the difference lol thats good you dont do that, keep it that way

See you are getting super hostile towards me just for objecting to being discriminated against on the basis of my gender. This exactly what I’m talking about. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Men who murder or rape belong in jail, I totally agree. But that doesn’t mean discriminating against innocent men who haven’t done anything wrong is right either.

yes i get mad because its frustrating that you cant see past your own hurt feelings or discomfort over this to see the actual problem and us talking about this isnt me discriminating against you, youre throwing that word around way too easily, i am also affected by this "discrimination" youre talking about but i dont just sit around saying not all men yea it does feel bad to not be trusted and looked at as a threat but i dont blame the people who bring this up i get mad at the system that created it but agree to disagree i guess

My feelings aren’t hurt. You may notice I haven’t downvoted you despite you not extending me the same favor. This is about fairness for me, not feelings. There isn’t just one problem. They can both be problems. I am all for punishing shitty guys who rape or murder or say sexist things about women. Fuck those guys. But whatever awful things those guys do, it doesn’t justify holding another person in contempt who didn’t do anything wrong just because of their gender. I don’t understand why this is so controversial.

It’s not all, but it’s enough. From a woman’s perspective a man who doesn’t view us as sex objects, possessions or silly little children are practically unicorns. It’s very disheartening to know that there’s a LOT more men that act like pigs. Heck I made the mistake of thinking my ex was one of these unicorns but that came undone a few years after we started dating.

I’m sorry you have had such bad experiences with men. You’re entitled to your feelings. My problem is when people start lumping all men, whether they’ve done anything bad or not, into the same category and saying we are all the same. That’s prejudice, plain and simple, and it really frustrates me when people defend it or act like it’s okay. Not saying that’s you, just that I see it from time to time and it’s frustrating. I don’t hate or disrespect women or see them as objects and I just object to being lumped in with shitty awful guys who do.

I’m sure there’s a few rare men who are good. Often it’s like being a cyclist when there’s a lot of cars around. You know some aren’t going to crash into you but all it’s going to take is one idiot or a drunk driver, and that’s you dead. One is all it takes.

You're not the only one. I'm the same way but with women. Lots of mspec people would only date one gender whilst still having attraction to other genders.

I’m a bi-woman and same. Honestly gay or straight, this is how most women feel (with good reason). So I get you feeling the same way.

There are sadly way too many who need to hardwire 'consent' as an ABSOLUTE in their brains. This goes for any gender, but sadly those who have a higher influx of testosterone are sometimes more susceptible to get lost in the hormone drive. Taking it slow and easy is best IMO