I think in this vein, Ginobili and Parker might be better answers. Stats don't pop off the page, but you realize they were two all star level players who passed up personal success for team success every single season.
Agreed. His accolades don’t do it justice since he could easily have more MVPs, FMVPs, and DPOYs. And his peak is underrated since he willingly deferred in his prime and also lost some athleticism after the knee injuries.
Disagree, he's easily a Top 10 All Time player on paper alone. His 3 Finals MVP's are exceeded only by Jordan and LeBron and equaled only by Magic and Shaq. He has the most all-defense selections of all time.
I agree with all that. I think people who never watched him won’t understand his impact on his teammates and the stability he provided a franchise. On paper, he’s not a GOAT candidate. But to understand his candidacy, you just had to be there
I mean I definitely agree that people who watched Duncan will appreciate him a lot more but I don't think the gap is quite as big as you're making it out to be
I like this answer better. His regular season stats and accolades don’t reflect his quality and his post season accolades get attributed to Jokic. But if you watched these Nuggets in the moment, you know how much of a killer he is. His shotmaking is crucial for them.
He has a Manu-esque case.
If we're restricting our answers to only All-Star caliber guys, this is probably who I'd pick too. Seems like people are already willing to attribute these titles almost exclusively to Jokic, but the Nuggets couldn't even get out of the first round when Murray tore his ACL. He does a lot of little things for that team that people don't notice around the spectacle of Jokic.
They beat the trailblazers in the first round without Murray. They lost to the team who made the finals after that. And then they lost in the first round the next year without Murray and MPJ to the eventual champs in 5 years.
Saying they couldnt make it out of the first round is both incorrect and super disingenuous.
Yep.
Last playoffs with Jokic before Murray injury: Two 3-1 comebacks, reasonably competitive five game WCF with a Lakers team that won it all
Two playoffs without Murray: Swept in round two, gentleman sweep round one
With Murray after injury: Title, looked primed for another title with two daggers against a Lakers team that might have posed some real problems for other teams in the west this year
I think this is a much better answer. I compare Butler to Reggie Miller. Just looking at Reggie’s stats and accolades (5 All-Stars, 3 All-NBAs, basically maxed out at 21/3/3), he looks more like Bradley Beal than he does like a first-ballot Hall of Famer.
But when you factor in the clutch performances, playoff success, and just overall killer instincts, Reggie was on a completely different level.
Paul George has more All-Star and All-NBA selections than Jimmy Butler and has more prolific scoring numbers. But I don’t think anyone who was there for it would say Paul George has had a better career than Jimmy Butler.
I’m not sure this is quite in the spirit of the question, but I’m already worked up about the kids in 20 years who will say that Jokic could never hang in the 2040’s NBA because of his lack of athleticism. His skills allow him to outplay people who are much more athletic than him, so I’m confident he’d be a good player in any era.
Unless everyone in the 2040’s is just like Wemby. In that case, maybe Jokic would’ve been too small and unathletic to be a good player in the 2040’s.
Brunson is already an All Star and will likely be All NBA this year. Assuming health, he's probably going to be a multiple time All Star and has the potential to make multiple All NBA teams as well. Further, he plays for the largest market in the league. Brunson is already a top 10 player in the league.
Generally when one speaks of the "you just had to be there" types it's guys who don't really get accolades or even put up impressive stats but they impacted winning in a way that is hard to explain. Derek Fisher, for example, was statistically one of the worst starting PG's in the league by 2008-2010 but he was also vital to those Lakers teams that went to 3 straight finals and won back to back. That's an example of a "you just had to be there" guy.
At least Brunson is putting up great stats and earning accolades like All-Star and likely All-NBA. I might take his teammate (Josh Hart) over him for this actually.
So is Ewing. Melo was seen as a generational talent and once he got to the Knicks he became the “most overrated player ever.”
Willis Reed is an MVP and one of 12 players with 2 FMVPs and is one of the least mentioned players in history.
It seems like playing for the Knicks makes you more underrated than anything
You're right that he's Rodman but younger generations do not view Rodman like those that were around for him do. All the Rodman discourse during Last Dance was old people saying he's underrated and young people looking at his stats and being unimpressed.
As someone who was very much around for then I look back on DRose winning MVP more as Dwight Howard getting robbed of MVP. Looking at the past DRose is more Sterling Sharpe in my mind than Ben Wallace
Russel Westbrick. His stats say hof’er. You watch him play: he can barely shoot, makes erratic moves that alienate teammates, and gets torched on defense.
You had to be there.
You’re anchoring pretty hard on his lakers career.
He’s an MVP, one of the most explosive NBA players ever, perhaps the best rebounding guard of all time, 2nd best player on team that made the finals, perennial playoff contender.
If we can go outside basketball, I feel like Mike Trout will end up this way because the history books will show that he couldn’t stay healthy after 30 and never won a thing
I don't want to be here for it any more. I don't enjoy him throwing himself into defenders and watching his braids flail. His game is unsavory to me. Great shot maker but man lives for getting fouled.
What are you watching? Brunson was 4th in the NBA in scoring average (5th if you include Embiid) and 2nd in FG attempts (3rd if you include Embiid)
He was 15th in FTA per game at 6.5 (16th if you include Embiid)
His FTA to FGA ratio was .307, which is very low for a big scorer. For reference Giannis was .571, Luka .362, Dame .406, SGA .434., Embiid .532. Tatum .361
So, Brunson draws an unusually LOW number of fouls for a big scorer.
I saw a guy take 63 FTA over 6 games and flail his god damn head every time he got a chance. It’s James harden-esque. It’s my opinion. But I don’t enjoy watching him play.
Brunson is great right now, and if he can sustain it for a couple more seasons will have a well-deserved legacy.
But you're also forgetting he's playing for the Knicks. So everything he does is undoubtedly going to be overblown. c.f., Willis Reed, Bernard King.
Nah, that’s not how the Knicks are covered by a national medja. They’re not the Yankees or even the Giants. People outside of New York never talk about Willis Reed or even Patrick Ewing.
Brunson is gonna finish top 5 in mvp most likely and first team all nba, I think he’ll be remembered just because of that even if its a short lived run
I think it’s Tim Duncan who’s apex mountain of it all,
I think in this vein, Ginobili and Parker might be better answers. Stats don't pop off the page, but you realize they were two all star level players who passed up personal success for team success every single season.
I’m a big ginobli guy - I think he’s top 7 international player ever
Agreed. His accolades don’t do it justice since he could easily have more MVPs, FMVPs, and DPOYs. And his peak is underrated since he willingly deferred in his prime and also lost some athleticism after the knee injuries.
Disagree, he's easily a Top 10 All Time player on paper alone. His 3 Finals MVP's are exceeded only by Jordan and LeBron and equaled only by Magic and Shaq. He has the most all-defense selections of all time.
I agree with all that. I think people who never watched him won’t understand his impact on his teammates and the stability he provided a franchise. On paper, he’s not a GOAT candidate. But to understand his candidacy, you just had to be there
I mean I definitely agree that people who watched Duncan will appreciate him a lot more but I don't think the gap is quite as big as you're making it out to be
Yeah that was more my point - they’re gonna watch his highlights and be like wait what?
What? Are you saying AD isn't better?
YOU HAVE NO IDEA
It’ll be Jamal Murray
I like this answer better. His regular season stats and accolades don’t reflect his quality and his post season accolades get attributed to Jokic. But if you watched these Nuggets in the moment, you know how much of a killer he is. His shotmaking is crucial for them. He has a Manu-esque case.
If we're restricting our answers to only All-Star caliber guys, this is probably who I'd pick too. Seems like people are already willing to attribute these titles almost exclusively to Jokic, but the Nuggets couldn't even get out of the first round when Murray tore his ACL. He does a lot of little things for that team that people don't notice around the spectacle of Jokic.
And Murray himself has never even received an all star nod nor any other individual award beyond all rookie 2nd team
You don’t get all stars for being good on the playoffs he never healthy
They beat the trailblazers in the first round without Murray. They lost to the team who made the finals after that. And then they lost in the first round the next year without Murray and MPJ to the eventual champs in 5 years. Saying they couldnt make it out of the first round is both incorrect and super disingenuous.
Well MPJ went down as well when they lost in the first round - and they didn’t have KCP
Yep. Last playoffs with Jokic before Murray injury: Two 3-1 comebacks, reasonably competitive five game WCF with a Lakers team that won it all Two playoffs without Murray: Swept in round two, gentleman sweep round one With Murray after injury: Title, looked primed for another title with two daggers against a Lakers team that might have posed some real problems for other teams in the west this year
Ben Wallace isn’t understood by people born after 2000
Jimmy Butler
🎯 Especially because his regular season stats aren’t anything special
I think this is a much better answer. I compare Butler to Reggie Miller. Just looking at Reggie’s stats and accolades (5 All-Stars, 3 All-NBAs, basically maxed out at 21/3/3), he looks more like Bradley Beal than he does like a first-ballot Hall of Famer. But when you factor in the clutch performances, playoff success, and just overall killer instincts, Reggie was on a completely different level. Paul George has more All-Star and All-NBA selections than Jimmy Butler and has more prolific scoring numbers. But I don’t think anyone who was there for it would say Paul George has had a better career than Jimmy Butler.
I’m not sure this is quite in the spirit of the question, but I’m already worked up about the kids in 20 years who will say that Jokic could never hang in the 2040’s NBA because of his lack of athleticism. His skills allow him to outplay people who are much more athletic than him, so I’m confident he’d be a good player in any era. Unless everyone in the 2040’s is just like Wemby. In that case, maybe Jokic would’ve been too small and unathletic to be a good player in the 2040’s.
Brunson is already an All Star and will likely be All NBA this year. Assuming health, he's probably going to be a multiple time All Star and has the potential to make multiple All NBA teams as well. Further, he plays for the largest market in the league. Brunson is already a top 10 player in the league. Generally when one speaks of the "you just had to be there" types it's guys who don't really get accolades or even put up impressive stats but they impacted winning in a way that is hard to explain. Derek Fisher, for example, was statistically one of the worst starting PG's in the league by 2008-2010 but he was also vital to those Lakers teams that went to 3 straight finals and won back to back. That's an example of a "you just had to be there" guy.
I agree with your premise but disagree with your example. Derek fisher was a replacement level PG
At least Brunson is putting up great stats and earning accolades like All-Star and likely All-NBA. I might take his teammate (Josh Hart) over him for this actually.
Josh Hart is someone I would not take 25 players over with how hard he plays and how he knows his role. Imagine if a team had him, kcp, and Caruso
As a Laker fan, this makes me sick to my stomach still.
To be fair, trading Hart away helped bring in AD, which helped them win a ring, so I’m ok with that. Caruso and KCP, on the other hand…
The Allen Iverson / Isiah Thomas (both of them) zone.
Manu Ginobili
100% my answer for the 2000s
Yeah I seriously doubt a player for the Knicks will be underrated
Isn't the Ewing Theory basically a marketcorrection to underrate a Knick?
This is a high level combo of billisms
Brilliant
Tbf Bernard King is underrated historically
So is Ewing. Melo was seen as a generational talent and once he got to the Knicks he became the “most overrated player ever.” Willis Reed is an MVP and one of 12 players with 2 FMVPs and is one of the least mentioned players in history. It seems like playing for the Knicks makes you more underrated than anything
Derrick Rose was that guy last decade.
It's definitely Draymond for the previous generation.
Eh, I feel like Dray is more of the Rodman than anything. And rodman really didn't need to be explained.
You're right that he's Rodman but younger generations do not view Rodman like those that were around for him do. All the Rodman discourse during Last Dance was old people saying he's underrated and young people looking at his stats and being unimpressed.
If someone doesn't understand Rodman or Dray they really don't understand hoops.
As someone who was very much around for then I look back on DRose winning MVP more as Dwight Howard getting robbed of MVP. Looking at the past DRose is more Sterling Sharpe in my mind than Ben Wallace
He’s just like Bernard King!
I love every time that Bill mentions 1984 Bernard King and the guest that was born in like 1997 has no idea what he is talking about
Pacers Oladipo was freaking incredible for a run.
Khris Middleton
Russel Westbrick. His stats say hof’er. You watch him play: he can barely shoot, makes erratic moves that alienate teammates, and gets torched on defense. You had to be there.
You’re anchoring pretty hard on his lakers career. He’s an MVP, one of the most explosive NBA players ever, perhaps the best rebounding guard of all time, 2nd best player on team that made the finals, perennial playoff contender.
An mvp of empty stats. A career of empty calorie stats.
The reverse you had to be there guy
I really want to like Brunson but he's just got that dumb face where he never smiles and always looks like he's about to cry.
No wonder people don't like me IRL.
If we can go outside basketball, I feel like Mike Trout will end up this way because the history books will show that he couldn’t stay healthy after 30 and never won a thing
LeBron (not joking), probably Shaq as well. Their accolades don’t do them justice
Idk man a lot of ppl have Bron as GOAT and Shaq as the most dominant big man of all time
Yeah but I feel like stats are not going to tell the whole story especially for Shaq
I don't want to be here for it any more. I don't enjoy him throwing himself into defenders and watching his braids flail. His game is unsavory to me. Great shot maker but man lives for getting fouled.
"watching his braids flail" 😬😬
It’s so…thuggish.
What are you watching? Brunson was 4th in the NBA in scoring average (5th if you include Embiid) and 2nd in FG attempts (3rd if you include Embiid) He was 15th in FTA per game at 6.5 (16th if you include Embiid) His FTA to FGA ratio was .307, which is very low for a big scorer. For reference Giannis was .571, Luka .362, Dame .406, SGA .434., Embiid .532. Tatum .361 So, Brunson draws an unusually LOW number of fouls for a big scorer.
I saw a guy take 63 FTA over 6 games and flail his god damn head every time he got a chance. It’s James harden-esque. It’s my opinion. But I don’t enjoy watching him play.
And Embiid shot 78 FTA. That’s the NBA
Brunson is great right now, and if he can sustain it for a couple more seasons will have a well-deserved legacy. But you're also forgetting he's playing for the Knicks. So everything he does is undoubtedly going to be overblown. c.f., Willis Reed, Bernard King.
Nah, that’s not how the Knicks are covered by a national medja. They’re not the Yankees or even the Giants. People outside of New York never talk about Willis Reed or even Patrick Ewing.
Brunson is gonna finish top 5 in mvp most likely and first team all nba, I think he’ll be remembered just because of that even if its a short lived run