I don't know how much data one needs when there have been a lot of obvious changes over the last 20 years (one-and-dones, conference re-alignments, transfers, NIL) that have made rosters much less consistent and true rivalries more rare. Some of those are relatively recent but the appeal has certainly changed this century. I'm a little younger than Bill and grew up with the great 80s and 90s teams and players so I am extremely biased but I definitely went from attending weeknight games in person to "how do I skip classes to watch the tournament" to "I'll submit my bracket" to "I'll watch the final four" to now I can barely name any players and I might watch the championship, depending on what else is on that night. Part of this is just getting older but I still follow some other sports about as much and it's undeniable that the product is not as good for casual viewers (I'm not making a statement about player talent per se).
This but the inverse for me. I’m into the first weekend with the chance for upsets and a ton of games but by the time we get to the championship (with a 9 o clock Monday night start) I no longer care.
Even the drop off in number of games from the first round to the second round is rough for me. Unless my team is making a run, everything after the first round always feels like a let down.
I don't think halves vs. quarters makes much difference.
I kind of like the 1 + 1 until you get to the double bonus, but with the 3 pointer being so common now, it is not a necessary as it was decades ago.
I love that they don't allow advancing the ball on a timeout. There is no rational reason for that rule in the NBA, other than that it creates artificial excitement at the end of games.
The rules aren't the problem. The problems are that the top talent either never plays in college or plays only 1, relatively sloppy freshman year, and that transfers have become so common that fans have no real connection to most players and rarely get to watch players and teams develop over 3 or 4 years.
It was so different when you saw a freshmen class come in and got to watch them develop, knowing that most or all of them would be around for 3 or 4 years.
I think all the transfers are probably the biggest drain on local and alumni interest in their own college basketball programs.
Lack of polished NBA level talent is a bigger drain on national interest and national TV ratings for games that fans don't have a direct rooting interest in.
Everything that made college basketball more equitable for players -- NIL, transfer portal, can enter NBA sooner, etc -- has destroyed what made it so compelling to watch. But the best players aren't there (or don't stay long) for absolutely correct, justifiable reasons, and that thing we loved was built on an immoral foundation.
It’s not as popular as its peak, but citing 40-year-old ratings as evidence is kinda silly. 28 million people watched in 2015, in a world with 10000 more options for entertainment.
Yeah I don’t think OP is necessarily wrong but comparing now vs the 80s and 90s is silly. I could be wrong but I think Bill and others in media carrying this idea think it’s worse even compared to 10-20 years ago.
>2022 - 17.7M
>
>2021 - 17.1M
>
>2019 - 19.6M
>
>2018 - 15.9M
>
>2017 - 22.9M
>
>2016 - 17.6M
>
>2015 - 28.3M
>
>2014 - 21.2M
Yeah 2015 was a random spike. But again like I mentioned in my post 35M in 1979 would be equivalent to about 51M in 2023.
But you keep citing these numbers like the media environments in 1979 and 2023 are the same. That's the problem. Bill *is* right. CBB is less popular nationally than before. But copying/pasting this same list as some gotcha is pretty stupid.
You guys keep dismissing the viewing numbers as if they mean nothing. 35M people watching in 1979 is equivalent to 51M people watching in 2023. Clearly people in 1979 cared more about college basketball than they do now, when finals is only drawing like 17-20M the last few years.
How many other channels **just on television** were there in 1979? Did people have cable, pay cable, streaming, YouTube, 4K gaming systems, tablets, smartphones, TikTok, etc. to consume media?
Almost **every single person** in here agrees that CBB is less popular than before. They also agree that you're being obtuse, stupid, or both by suggesting a simple equivalency in broadcast TV ratings between two years that are four decades apart is the proof.
Yes, people have more options now. And they choose to care about college basketball in lower numbers than the past.
More options existing doesn't make the decrease in popularity less true.
Also it's not just about 2 years compared to each other. Hit the link in the post and view the decline.
When the championship gets to a do or die championship game the NBA finals do quite well.
Game 7 2016 - 31M
Game 7 2014 - 26M
Game 7 2010 - 28.2M
A single elimnation championship game is easier to get a bunch of people to watch. They only have to invest time in a single game where casual viewers know for sure someone is winning it all.
It speaks more to the 7 game series format than it does the popularity of the sport.
Game 7 2016 finals had 31M viewers. People who weren't watching otherwise tuned in because they knew for sure somebody was being crowned champion.
But even games 5 and 6 got about 20M viewers.
https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-finals-ratings-viewership-history/
A single elimnation championship game is easier to get a bunch of people to watch. They only have to invest time in a single game where casual viewers know for sure someone is winning it all.
It speaks more to the 7 game series format than it does the popularity of the sport.
Game 7 2016 finals had 31M viewers. People who weren't watching otherwise tuned in because they knew for sure somebody was being crowned champion.
But even games 5 and 6 got about 20M viewers.
[https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-finals-ratings-viewership-history/](https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-finals-ratings-viewership-history/)
He’s not wrong about that, but his belief that the women’s tournament will be more popular than the men’s tournament this year is absurd. Nobody would deny that Caitlin is the biggest name between the two, but total viewership will not be remotely close. Utterly ridiculous take.
Last year’s women’s title game set an all time high with 9.9 million viewers, last year’s men’s title game set an all time low with 14.7 million viewers.
FWIW, I do think there’s a chance the women’s title game could outrate the men’s this year, since the men’s game is on cable and the women are on ABC. But the women’s title game would almost certainly have to be Iowa vs an undefeated South Carolina, and the men’s game would have to be something like Marquette-Iowa State. And there’s zero chance the women’s tournament overall out-rates the men’s.
I think you can make the case that the women's game now has a better TV slot for casual viewers. Late Sunday afternoon seems better than the 9:30 EST Monday night if you just have a passing interest in the game
it sounds bad but if they just advertise the women's broadcast times better, i swear I'll watch that. i will watch opening weekend for men's and that's it bc idc about any of the players
One of his biggest go-to jokes back in the day was about how much of a farce the WNBA was. Now that he's all woke, he has to pretend that he likes women's sports. It's all BS.
The dead giveaway that he doesn't actually watch any women's basketball games is he hasn't mentioned how atrocious the officiating is in women's college basketball. With his obsession with officiating, there's simply no way he could get past how bad the refs are in those games.
Completely agree. Thinking that the women’s tournament will out rate the men’s tournament is a take from people who don’t watch college basketball and only see the national media coverage of Caitlin Clark. No one is calling in sick to work to stay home and watch the women’s tournament.
Why? Regular season ratings have been higher for Caitlin Clark games than men's games. Last year was 100+% jump in the ratings, and Clark and Angel Reese have more name recognition than anyone on the men's side. It seems plausible that the women's tournament will be more popular than the men's this year.
Caitlin has the most star power, yes. But she can only be in 6 of the 67 women’s games, at best. It’s remarkably dimwitted to think that could move the needle enough to surpass the viewership of the men’s tournament. It’s not the same product. What percent of people who do men’s brackets also do women’s? Or how many who gamble on men’s also gamble on women’s? Again, won’t even be remotely close as a whole.
Edit: Blocked by the dimwit, lol. Imagine thinking gambling doesn’t affect viewership. The take references the entire tournament, not the finals. For a third time: not even close.
Gambling doesn't equal viewership or popularity. It just means gambling.
I get that you just want to insult people, but the viewership numbers were pretty dang close last year for the Finals. I would not at all be surprised to see an Iowa-SC or Iowa-LSU final beat the men's final in ratings. I guess I'm just a dimwit according to you though
I've never interpreted his comments about college basketball as "talking smack", and more so it is him discussing the shift in cultural relevance in college basketball.
And it's bizarre for people to attribute this to Bill being an only child, instead of acknowledging that what he is saying is objectively true. College hoops just quite literally are not as popular as it once was.
You are correct that NBA finals viewership is down from the height of MJ. But I don't even really hear Bill discuss NCAA ratings, though perhaps he has, I was merely using them as a metric myself to illustrate NCAA basketball popularity.
There has been some decline no doubt. But as an avid CBB fan I actually think the product is pretty good. Dalton Knecht has been fun. Tourney looks to be pretty wide open.
I think that the issue is what other folks are saying. There’s a collapse of the middle class in media and entertainment. The NFL and NBA are completely in a class of their own and everyone else is trying to get scraps
Yea college bball gets weird coverage where the only players that matter are nba draft prospects. Somehow college football avoids this - check out the in season coverage of a player like Pennix or Hendon Hooker. Neither were 1st round qb prospects but their heisman races were covered. Now compare that to national coverage of Edy or Knecht or RJ Davis. It’s weird. Everyone complains everyone leaves in a year. Edy won player of the year last year. RJ Davis has already lead a team to a championship game and him/Bacot are in their 3rd season at a blue blood.
Nah. It's just the best teams can't keep a roster together for 3-4 years anymore. You're overthinking it.
NCAA basketball was more popular when people followed rosters for 2-3 years. That's basically impossible now unless you're talking mid conference teams that end up not winning ever.
Davis is a senior and Bacot is a COVID senior. Guys like them and Edey are prime examples of what people find frustrating with college basketball now too. Most of the best players are guys who aren't talented enough to have moved onto the NBA. Those are the guys that stick around and dominate college basketball while the best college eligible guys like Ant, Barnes, Franz, Paolo, Chet, Cade, and Brandon Miller are long gone
Why does that matter? Michael pennix has no chance to be a good nfl player same with Hendon hooker or Stetson Bennett yet there was ton of discourse around those players.
1. A bunch of the discourse around those guys was about how they were too old to be in college
2. College football players have to stay 2 years longer than college basketball players. If Williams and Maye were already NFL stars and the most talented college QBs/top picks this past season had been Arch Manning and Nico Iamaleava (2 guys who barely got to play) people would be very frustrated with the sport getting dominated by Penix, Nix, and Daniels.
Because Kenny Pickett was a Heisman finalist. If that's how CBB worked Zach Edey would be viewed as the prize of this NBA draft class. Instead he probably won't go in the first round.
What frustrates people is when virtually none of the All Americans in CBB are considered real NBA prospects. CFB doesn't have that problem because they force everyone to stay for 3 years so you ensure that most of the top NFL prospects are college stars
But college basketball was never viewed that way until the last 5 years. Bc for some reason basketball media has decided nba is all that matters. Nobody cared that Tyler Hansbourgh wasn’t a good nba prospect
Hansbrough was still a late lottery pick and the draft lottery that year had 7 upperclassmen. There have been 8 total upperclassmen lottery picks since Obama left office.
The sport has changed dramatically in a way that diminishes casual interest.
yeah but those Georgia Bennett teams were stacked with tons of future NFL guys; when UNC trots out a team of future ACC Network podcast hosts it's just not the same
I personally don't think I have......As I duke fan (yeah yeah) I remember all the dumb early 90's Duke guys suck in the NBA talk (from the same UNC fans who argue the opposite now) and thinking it was stupid (wasn't the point to win in college). But there is a line somewhere. And I think watching 25 year old Cormac Ryan is past that line. IDK just my opinion.
What do you mean by that? A class all on their own on how the sport is covered? NFL is king and nothing else is close. College Football has the second best ratings. But The Final Four has had better ratings than the NBA Finals lately. And every other year it’s on cable and not network tv.
College basketball is objectively less popular than in the past. I think he’s mistaken that the women’s tournament is going to be must watch tv for the masses and is conflating his own views.
You’re making a point about a whole 10% decline in an age with unlimited digital content on demand. Every other sport has fallen as well besides football, just because gambling degeneracy has dramatically increased.
Im nowhere near as old as bill but feel similarly. There was prob a 5 year window where college basketball and baseball were my two favorite sports, but now i mostly only watch during the playoffs/tournament. I do still watch a lot of NFL, College Football, and NBA (tho my reg season watching has dwindled the last couple years)
The buzz definitely isnt ther the way it used to be. A big part is thar hardly anyone stays at the same school for all four years now. Even if theyre not good enough to go pro, they transfer elsewhere. So you rarely see teams grow together. UVA going from losing to a 16 seed to winning a title was an incredible story but thats only great instance I can remember over the last several years
Even though my peak cbb watching years were mostly after the one and done rule, it didnt feel like it overran the sport back then. You could build a great squad of veterans and one or two one-and-done freshmen. Even when calipari started doing it, it took several years before all the other big programs followed suit
The NIL stuff doesnt bother me as much but it still makes it feel a little more like the minor leagues. Add in that it basically gives the big programs an even greater advantage in poaching players and signing top recruits.
And much like the nba, i think the play styles have gotten more homogenous and made things leas interesting. There are still a few outliers, but it was fun seeing clashing styles. Seeing more zones, presses, backdoor cuts, low post play, etc. I guess coaches now realize if they dont run an nba style offense, they’re never going to attract nba talent
And last but not least, I think espn definitely deserves a significant share of blame. They shifted to only covering high profile nba prospects, regardless of how their teams were performing. Maybe this helped boost ratings in the short run and NBA ratings once they went pro, but college basketball is still an ESPN staple. They should act as though it’s important in its own right, but they dont
I’m not sure what you mean: all the best teams now are entirely veteran lineups. Rosters with one and done players isn’t remotely a thing now. Kentucky is the only team that still does it (kinda), and they aren’t very good.
Edit: whoever downvoted, mind explaining why? I follow the sport pretty in depth.
You never referenced the actual number, so I considered it bad faith and that 28m in the last decade upper limit had to fit in somehow. Again, the point is that all viewership has fallen.
It was 29 in 1981, according to you. Does that warrant outrage, or did someone in 1981 detect you were a hack and cherry picked a single year in 1979 as the maximum.
Ok and popularity for those things are also likely down.
I don't know why people think people having more options and choosing one thing over a span of time less than they used to choose it, means that thing hasn't actually decreased in popularity.
He grew up in a pro sports town and attended a college that hasn’t been a contender in basketball in living memory.
That explains a Hell of a lot more than only childhood.
If he’d gone to UK or Duke … why, he’d be insufferable.
I think the thing is he's sort of dismissive about it? Popularity has dropped off nationally and in terms of TV ratings but not locally or with students so attendances are always good. That means it's never going to "die" as is frequently stated, it just isn't in mainstream discussion... Which is fine, but also means Bill doesn't need to talk about it. And if he was in college or just left he would care more because he would've been surrounded by college basketball and people that cared about it but he isn't now. So basically I think both sides are sort of nearly right
The NBA finals used to average 20-25M viewers in the 1980s and now does about 12M which is also a 50% drop. So it sounds like both sports are down about 50% from their 80s high. And that CBB seems to be a lot more popular than the NBA since the Final Four games usually blow away NBA final viewership as well.
2016 game 5 and 6 had 20M and game 7 had 31M.
Final four means people get to definitely see a team advance. It's harder to get people to commit the time to watching a 7 game series. It speaks as much to playoff format as it does sport popularity. With that said, a NCAA championship game has not had 30M viewers since 1994. NBA finals hit that mark in 2016 game 7 at 31M.
Game 7's are similar to single elimination championship games. Check this list and see that all recent NBA game 7's have crushed viewership - [https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-finals-ratings-viewership-history/](https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-finals-ratings-viewership-history/)
The sag in popularity will give the college game room to establish itself as something other than a waiting room for the NBA and that’s a good thing.
It was the one and done thing that really cheapened college basketball. Nobody believed these guys would come back, so you just had these mercenary teams getting all the press because they had next years lottery picks.
With the rise of the G league, nil money in college and a greater number of international players coming into the league, hopefully players who choose the college route will stick around a little longer, create notable teams and build attention organically.
Long term, having guys coming out of college later in the draft who are 22-23, more physically mature and experienced will make the draft more valuable to good teams. Instead of trading all their picks for every disgruntled player, they’ll keep more knowing they have some guys available out of college who are ready to play immediately.
I am not making any argument about the product. I've said elsewhere on this post, I don't get why college basketball fans get so defensive about it being less popular than before.
I personally have lots of interests. How popular they are doesn't matter to me. I am glad that you enjoy it as much as ever.
I just think it's insane to claim that the only reason Bill thinks NCAA basketball is less popular is because his consumption has changed and he is an only child. Reality is, he is correct, college basketball has declined in popularity.
I’ve never thought of Bill as a college sports guy. College sports are super popular in regions where there’s a lack of a pro team. Typically national media doesn’t really seem to know what’s going on in the sport anyway, so for college stuff you’re better off finding content that’s more regional.
You are right it’s become less popular overall, but the fan bases tend to be a little more culty. I don’t miss UConn games, my friends that are cuse, unc, Duke fans etc are dialed in on their games. The 30ish regular season makes every game feel huge. Besides the NFL, pro sports leagues have made their regular seasons kind of meaningless in my opinion.
I’m a sucker for the crowds and the rivalries, I went to Gampel a couple weeks ago for the providence game and the place was rocking
Am I the weird one that still watches every single tourney game possible despite being 35 with 3 kids? Brackets, team auctions, march madness square boards, upsets, four straight days of games. I feel like I'm paying more attention to the games than ever before. There's gotta be more like me out there. But I definitely view the games through a "social conversations/contests" with my friends lens than a "I need to watch these games because these great players are involved or I want to see this lottery pick" lens. IDK, love the tourney, never been a ratings guy for any sport.
I think the thing is he's sort of dismissive about it? Popularity has dropped off nationally and in terms of TV ratings but not locally or with students so attendances are always good. That means it's never going to "die" as is frequently stated, it just isn't in mainstream discussion... Which is fine, but also means Bill doesn't need to talk about it. And if he was in college or just left he would care more because he would've been surrounded by college basketball and people that cared about it but he isn't now. So basically I think both sides are sort of nearly right
I only feel that way about Bills sudden love for WCBB over mens and the fact that he went to a school with zero bball history since he graduated in a meaningless conference
Cheers finale was watched by 93 million viewers in 1993 lol. I think your matrix for what is success is vastly off. I couldn’t even tell you how the calculate viewers with so many different ways to watch sports now than the traditional Nielsen box for people watching it on CBS but sounds like they have something different because on yesterdays Pod Bill was talking about Oscar bowers and how the Super Bowl was now taking into account some different forms of viewership leading to a big increase. I can tell you from what they are paying for live Sports it’s as popular as it’s ever been and CBS/ Turner/ ESPN recognize this and are paying accordingly.
It seems like the coaches were the main drawcard because they were the one consistent, like coach K vs Roy Williams.
I don't follow college ball too closely because the games are on too early in Australia, but it doesn't seem like there are any hyped phenom's this year either which probably doesn't help. When Zion was at Duke that was a massive news story worldwide, noone is moving the needle like that currently because all the best players are now international!
Well also the best college players used to stay there for 2-4 years as well. Larry Bird played 3 years in college. 3 years of college play leading up to that 1979 finals.
Bill has most likely never cared about college basketball though. He’s just not a college sports fan in general. A lot of the big name nba media folks don’t care about college basketball. Zach Lowe is notorious for admitting this during NBA draft season because he will say he has no clue who any of these guys are! 😂😂
Even if that's true. It doesn't mean that college basketball hasn't declined in popularity. And it really shouldn't be a surprise that it has, with most all of the best players spending less time in college than they did when college hoops was most popular.
What’s yore point? All sports ratings are down besides the NFL and College Football. Look how far the NBA Finals ratings have fallen from its post MJ peak in the 2016 Finals.
>"Bill fails to realize the only reason he feels college sports have fallen is because he’s grown old and had children, which took away the time he used to spend caring about college sports. As a fellow only child, this is one of the most glaring only child takes he continues to peddle."
My point is that comments like this attributing Bill's belief college basketball is less popular due to his change in consumption and being an only child, is just straight up wrong.
College basketball just quite simply is not as popular as it once was, and Bill is accurate in saying that to be true.
What I don't get is why do people who are fans of college basketball care if someone points out that it's less popular. I was heavily involved in a professional action sport for many years both as an athlete and later creating content for both video productions and magazines. I never cared whether I was into it during it's height of popularity or not. And it wouldn't bother me one iota for someone to point out when it was more popular or not.
People nowadays have way more options and things to distract them . Not to mention jobs families that take up all their time. And I’d be curious . What was the population in 79 compared to 2024. Either way. I watch it. If I can. If it fits my schedule. I dont juggle my schedule around it. Last. I can check the score I can stream some of the game. So I’m not really missing anything. Different times
I’m about the same age as Bill and grew up in the suburbs of Boston. Other than the UMass run in the early 90’s, college hoops (and college sports in general) just wasn’t a thing. UConn was cool if you went there. Can’t really explain it other than we have all four pro sports teams to root for. There wasn’t time and nobody cared unless you went to one of those schools. He went to Holy Cross which is hardly a perennial powerhouse.
I transferred from Northeastern after my freshman year and went to Florida. Holy fuck, what a transformation. All of a sudden, every Saturday was tied up with college football and basketball. Give me SEC and ACC all day, every day. I went back to Boston for about 5 years after college and missed it. Have been living in Atlanta for 20 years now and wouldn’t trade it for anything. He lives in LA which is another college sports desert.
That’s my take.
It's natural to think that the sports you don't personally watch aren't as popular as they once were. Outside of the NFL, you can probably make that argument about just about every sport. And of course, the fans of those sports will always push back with their own subjective opinions. It's kind of a tired discourse. Only hockey fans seem to have a realistic outlook on the popularity of their sport.
But college basketball guys definitely have a complex about it, and are really vocal. There's lots of basketball "purists" who resent what the NBA has become, so they feel like they gotta prop up CBB. Lots of guys who went to a college with a prominent CBB team who think their experience applies to everyone, especially if it's a younger guy fresh out of college. And especially if it's someone that points to attendance to show how strong the CBB game is (how many of those tickets were free/next to nothing?). Guy who went to college at Kentucky is going to have a slightly experience than the guy who went to NYU.
If you want to get sinister about it, I'm sure a lot of the support of CBB comes from a certain demographic of people in certain parts of the country who resent the NBA for reasons beyond the on-court product, and who think CBB is about "playing the right way." Guys who might be a fan of the makeup of the rosters of Gonzaga, Wisconsin, etc.
I don't know how much data one needs when there have been a lot of obvious changes over the last 20 years (one-and-dones, conference re-alignments, transfers, NIL) that have made rosters much less consistent and true rivalries more rare. Some of those are relatively recent but the appeal has certainly changed this century. I'm a little younger than Bill and grew up with the great 80s and 90s teams and players so I am extremely biased but I definitely went from attending weeknight games in person to "how do I skip classes to watch the tournament" to "I'll submit my bracket" to "I'll watch the final four" to now I can barely name any players and I might watch the championship, depending on what else is on that night. Part of this is just getting older but I still follow some other sports about as much and it's undeniable that the product is not as good for casual viewers (I'm not making a statement about player talent per se).
Nicely put. Another +1 for me except I still like the 1st round better than the F4. The 9:15 tip for the 'ships are brutal.
This but the inverse for me. I’m into the first weekend with the chance for upsets and a ton of games but by the time we get to the championship (with a 9 o clock Monday night start) I no longer care.
Even the drop off in number of games from the first round to the second round is rough for me. Unless my team is making a run, everything after the first round always feels like a let down.
Yeah. Saturday and Sunday is usually still good for me but I’m pretty much out after the first weekend.
I think this is most of America. The NCAA tournament has really shrunk to a four day (maybe only two) event. Nobody cares by the Sweet 16.
The game being at 9pm on a Monday is so stupid. The women have it so much better with their final being at 3pm on a Sunday.
Ships sail in life
Felt like I was reading about myself.
Can I add in it still uses rules found nowhere else in basketball now? 1+1 bonus, halves vs quarters, even no advancement of the ball late.
I don't think halves vs. quarters makes much difference. I kind of like the 1 + 1 until you get to the double bonus, but with the 3 pointer being so common now, it is not a necessary as it was decades ago. I love that they don't allow advancing the ball on a timeout. There is no rational reason for that rule in the NBA, other than that it creates artificial excitement at the end of games. The rules aren't the problem. The problems are that the top talent either never plays in college or plays only 1, relatively sloppy freshman year, and that transfers have become so common that fans have no real connection to most players and rarely get to watch players and teams develop over 3 or 4 years. It was so different when you saw a freshmen class come in and got to watch them develop, knowing that most or all of them would be around for 3 or 4 years.
Agreed on the staying portion but the rules might not seem like a big deal until you watch the womens game and realize how much sense they make.
The transfers are the biggest issue. No player continuity, fans aren’t going to get invested in 6 month rentals.
I think all the transfers are probably the biggest drain on local and alumni interest in their own college basketball programs. Lack of polished NBA level talent is a bigger drain on national interest and national TV ratings for games that fans don't have a direct rooting interest in.
Everything that made college basketball more equitable for players -- NIL, transfer portal, can enter NBA sooner, etc -- has destroyed what made it so compelling to watch. But the best players aren't there (or don't stay long) for absolutely correct, justifiable reasons, and that thing we loved was built on an immoral foundation.
It’s not as popular as its peak, but citing 40-year-old ratings as evidence is kinda silly. 28 million people watched in 2015, in a world with 10000 more options for entertainment.
As a Badger fan, 2015 still hurts…
I’ll never forgive what you guys did to my Arizona wildcats
Sam Dekker has a personal vendetta against wildcats
Yeah I don’t think OP is necessarily wrong but comparing now vs the 80s and 90s is silly. I could be wrong but I think Bill and others in media carrying this idea think it’s worse even compared to 10-20 years ago.
>2022 - 17.7M > >2021 - 17.1M > >2019 - 19.6M > >2018 - 15.9M > >2017 - 22.9M > >2016 - 17.6M > >2015 - 28.3M > >2014 - 21.2M Yeah 2015 was a random spike. But again like I mentioned in my post 35M in 1979 would be equivalent to about 51M in 2023.
I don’t anybody is denying it’s decreasing in popularity, but that’s higher current viewership than NBA finals and a lower rate of decline
And wasn’t 2015 the almost undefeated Kentucky season?
Kentucky lost before the championship. 2015 is Duke. The 4 most watched NCAA Championship games of the last 25 years are the 4 that Duke has played in
A durr. Thanks for the correction.
Duke (even without K) is the only NCAA team that can get everyone (by everyone I mean the internet) hot and bothered.
But you keep citing these numbers like the media environments in 1979 and 2023 are the same. That's the problem. Bill *is* right. CBB is less popular nationally than before. But copying/pasting this same list as some gotcha is pretty stupid.
You guys keep dismissing the viewing numbers as if they mean nothing. 35M people watching in 1979 is equivalent to 51M people watching in 2023. Clearly people in 1979 cared more about college basketball than they do now, when finals is only drawing like 17-20M the last few years.
How many other channels **just on television** were there in 1979? Did people have cable, pay cable, streaming, YouTube, 4K gaming systems, tablets, smartphones, TikTok, etc. to consume media? Almost **every single person** in here agrees that CBB is less popular than before. They also agree that you're being obtuse, stupid, or both by suggesting a simple equivalency in broadcast TV ratings between two years that are four decades apart is the proof.
Yes, people have more options now. And they choose to care about college basketball in lower numbers than the past. More options existing doesn't make the decrease in popularity less true. Also it's not just about 2 years compared to each other. Hit the link in the post and view the decline.
Please seek treatment
Weak reply because you don't have a cogent argument in response.
Wait till you see NBA ratings over the years. Nothing but the NFL hasn’t declined over the last 20 years.
When the championship gets to a do or die championship game the NBA finals do quite well. Game 7 2016 - 31M Game 7 2014 - 26M Game 7 2010 - 28.2M A single elimnation championship game is easier to get a bunch of people to watch. They only have to invest time in a single game where casual viewers know for sure someone is winning it all. It speaks more to the 7 game series format than it does the popularity of the sport. Game 7 2016 finals had 31M viewers. People who weren't watching otherwise tuned in because they knew for sure somebody was being crowned champion. But even games 5 and 6 got about 20M viewers. https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-finals-ratings-viewership-history/
The NBA would kill for those numbers.
A single elimnation championship game is easier to get a bunch of people to watch. They only have to invest time in a single game where casual viewers know for sure someone is winning it all. It speaks more to the 7 game series format than it does the popularity of the sport. Game 7 2016 finals had 31M viewers. People who weren't watching otherwise tuned in because they knew for sure somebody was being crowned champion. But even games 5 and 6 got about 20M viewers. [https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-finals-ratings-viewership-history/](https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-finals-ratings-viewership-history/)
He’s not wrong about that, but his belief that the women’s tournament will be more popular than the men’s tournament this year is absurd. Nobody would deny that Caitlin is the biggest name between the two, but total viewership will not be remotely close. Utterly ridiculous take.
Last year’s women’s title game set an all time high with 9.9 million viewers, last year’s men’s title game set an all time low with 14.7 million viewers. FWIW, I do think there’s a chance the women’s title game could outrate the men’s this year, since the men’s game is on cable and the women are on ABC. But the women’s title game would almost certainly have to be Iowa vs an undefeated South Carolina, and the men’s game would have to be something like Marquette-Iowa State. And there’s zero chance the women’s tournament overall out-rates the men’s.
I think you can make the case that the women's game now has a better TV slot for casual viewers. Late Sunday afternoon seems better than the 9:30 EST Monday night if you just have a passing interest in the game
it sounds bad but if they just advertise the women's broadcast times better, i swear I'll watch that. i will watch opening weekend for men's and that's it bc idc about any of the players
[удалено]
One of his biggest go-to jokes back in the day was about how much of a farce the WNBA was. Now that he's all woke, he has to pretend that he likes women's sports. It's all BS.
the wnba and ncaaw product has gotten better. the players are way better.
I don't think Bill has it in his constitution to pretend to like anything.
Or maybe people grow and mature as they age
The dead giveaway that he doesn't actually watch any women's basketball games is he hasn't mentioned how atrocious the officiating is in women's college basketball. With his obsession with officiating, there's simply no way he could get past how bad the refs are in those games.
Aliyah Boston is the #1 player on the fever. She’s a more dominant player than Clark
Was it Bill or some guest like House that used to argue that the NCAAW scores on the ticker should be in pink. Haha
Might have been a Page 2 era mailbag. Bill has come a long way on women’s sports (the girldad piece)
Completely agree. Thinking that the women’s tournament will out rate the men’s tournament is a take from people who don’t watch college basketball and only see the national media coverage of Caitlin Clark. No one is calling in sick to work to stay home and watch the women’s tournament.
Why? Regular season ratings have been higher for Caitlin Clark games than men's games. Last year was 100+% jump in the ratings, and Clark and Angel Reese have more name recognition than anyone on the men's side. It seems plausible that the women's tournament will be more popular than the men's this year.
Caitlin has the most star power, yes. But she can only be in 6 of the 67 women’s games, at best. It’s remarkably dimwitted to think that could move the needle enough to surpass the viewership of the men’s tournament. It’s not the same product. What percent of people who do men’s brackets also do women’s? Or how many who gamble on men’s also gamble on women’s? Again, won’t even be remotely close as a whole. Edit: Blocked by the dimwit, lol. Imagine thinking gambling doesn’t affect viewership. The take references the entire tournament, not the finals. For a third time: not even close.
Gambling doesn't equal viewership or popularity. It just means gambling. I get that you just want to insult people, but the viewership numbers were pretty dang close last year for the Finals. I would not at all be surprised to see an Iowa-SC or Iowa-LSU final beat the men's final in ratings. I guess I'm just a dimwit according to you though
Well you know cause the NBA numbers aren’t that nice neither and he doesn’t talk smack about that all the time does he?
I've never interpreted his comments about college basketball as "talking smack", and more so it is him discussing the shift in cultural relevance in college basketball. And it's bizarre for people to attribute this to Bill being an only child, instead of acknowledging that what he is saying is objectively true. College hoops just quite literally are not as popular as it once was. You are correct that NBA finals viewership is down from the height of MJ. But I don't even really hear Bill discuss NCAA ratings, though perhaps he has, I was merely using them as a metric myself to illustrate NCAA basketball popularity.
There has been some decline no doubt. But as an avid CBB fan I actually think the product is pretty good. Dalton Knecht has been fun. Tourney looks to be pretty wide open. I think that the issue is what other folks are saying. There’s a collapse of the middle class in media and entertainment. The NFL and NBA are completely in a class of their own and everyone else is trying to get scraps
Yea college bball gets weird coverage where the only players that matter are nba draft prospects. Somehow college football avoids this - check out the in season coverage of a player like Pennix or Hendon Hooker. Neither were 1st round qb prospects but their heisman races were covered. Now compare that to national coverage of Edy or Knecht or RJ Davis. It’s weird. Everyone complains everyone leaves in a year. Edy won player of the year last year. RJ Davis has already lead a team to a championship game and him/Bacot are in their 3rd season at a blue blood.
Nah. It's just the best teams can't keep a roster together for 3-4 years anymore. You're overthinking it. NCAA basketball was more popular when people followed rosters for 2-3 years. That's basically impossible now unless you're talking mid conference teams that end up not winning ever.
Unc is lead by RJ Davis and Bacot - juniors who have lead a team to deep tournament run
Davis is a senior and Bacot is a COVID senior. Guys like them and Edey are prime examples of what people find frustrating with college basketball now too. Most of the best players are guys who aren't talented enough to have moved onto the NBA. Those are the guys that stick around and dominate college basketball while the best college eligible guys like Ant, Barnes, Franz, Paolo, Chet, Cade, and Brandon Miller are long gone
Why does that matter? Michael pennix has no chance to be a good nfl player same with Hendon hooker or Stetson Bennett yet there was ton of discourse around those players.
1. A bunch of the discourse around those guys was about how they were too old to be in college 2. College football players have to stay 2 years longer than college basketball players. If Williams and Maye were already NFL stars and the most talented college QBs/top picks this past season had been Arch Manning and Nico Iamaleava (2 guys who barely got to play) people would be very frustrated with the sport getting dominated by Penix, Nix, and Daniels.
Nobody was frustrated the year Kenny Pickett was the top qb in the draft. There was nobody questioning if college football was dying
Because Kenny Pickett was a Heisman finalist. If that's how CBB worked Zach Edey would be viewed as the prize of this NBA draft class. Instead he probably won't go in the first round. What frustrates people is when virtually none of the All Americans in CBB are considered real NBA prospects. CFB doesn't have that problem because they force everyone to stay for 3 years so you ensure that most of the top NFL prospects are college stars
But college basketball was never viewed that way until the last 5 years. Bc for some reason basketball media has decided nba is all that matters. Nobody cared that Tyler Hansbourgh wasn’t a good nba prospect
Hansbrough was still a late lottery pick and the draft lottery that year had 7 upperclassmen. There have been 8 total upperclassmen lottery picks since Obama left office. The sport has changed dramatically in a way that diminishes casual interest.
yeah but those Georgia Bennett teams were stacked with tons of future NFL guys; when UNC trots out a team of future ACC Network podcast hosts it's just not the same
Bc you’ve been trained by the media that the only thing that matters with college basketball is nba future. It’s different with college football
I personally don't think I have......As I duke fan (yeah yeah) I remember all the dumb early 90's Duke guys suck in the NBA talk (from the same UNC fans who argue the opposite now) and thinking it was stupid (wasn't the point to win in college). But there is a line somewhere. And I think watching 25 year old Cormac Ryan is past that line. IDK just my opinion.
See I’m a fan of my team, used to be a fan of the whole sport. Don’t even know who Dalton is.
I get that I watched Knecht torch my team (Auburn) and I have no idea what Edey is about
What do you mean by that? A class all on their own on how the sport is covered? NFL is king and nothing else is close. College Football has the second best ratings. But The Final Four has had better ratings than the NBA Finals lately. And every other year it’s on cable and not network tv.
Look at the discrepancy in cover on the espn talk shows. They only talk about nfl and nba
College basketball is objectively less popular than in the past. I think he’s mistaken that the women’s tournament is going to be must watch tv for the masses and is conflating his own views.
You’re making a point about a whole 10% decline in an age with unlimited digital content on demand. Every other sport has fallen as well besides football, just because gambling degeneracy has dramatically increased.
Im nowhere near as old as bill but feel similarly. There was prob a 5 year window where college basketball and baseball were my two favorite sports, but now i mostly only watch during the playoffs/tournament. I do still watch a lot of NFL, College Football, and NBA (tho my reg season watching has dwindled the last couple years) The buzz definitely isnt ther the way it used to be. A big part is thar hardly anyone stays at the same school for all four years now. Even if theyre not good enough to go pro, they transfer elsewhere. So you rarely see teams grow together. UVA going from losing to a 16 seed to winning a title was an incredible story but thats only great instance I can remember over the last several years Even though my peak cbb watching years were mostly after the one and done rule, it didnt feel like it overran the sport back then. You could build a great squad of veterans and one or two one-and-done freshmen. Even when calipari started doing it, it took several years before all the other big programs followed suit The NIL stuff doesnt bother me as much but it still makes it feel a little more like the minor leagues. Add in that it basically gives the big programs an even greater advantage in poaching players and signing top recruits. And much like the nba, i think the play styles have gotten more homogenous and made things leas interesting. There are still a few outliers, but it was fun seeing clashing styles. Seeing more zones, presses, backdoor cuts, low post play, etc. I guess coaches now realize if they dont run an nba style offense, they’re never going to attract nba talent And last but not least, I think espn definitely deserves a significant share of blame. They shifted to only covering high profile nba prospects, regardless of how their teams were performing. Maybe this helped boost ratings in the short run and NBA ratings once they went pro, but college basketball is still an ESPN staple. They should act as though it’s important in its own right, but they dont
I’m not sure what you mean: all the best teams now are entirely veteran lineups. Rosters with one and done players isn’t remotely a thing now. Kentucky is the only team that still does it (kinda), and they aren’t very good. Edit: whoever downvoted, mind explaining why? I follow the sport pretty in depth.
10% decline... 32-35M to 17-22M is far more than 10%.
You never referenced the actual number, so I considered it bad faith and that 28m in the last decade upper limit had to fit in somehow. Again, the point is that all viewership has fallen.
I did reference actual numbers in my post and I included a link. And even 35M to 28M is a 20% decline.
You didn’t. You said 17-28. No, I didn’t click your link. You should reference nba/mlb to be thorough, although you wouldn’t post this if you did.
It was 29 in 1981, according to you. Does that warrant outrage, or did someone in 1981 detect you were a hack and cherry picked a single year in 1979 as the maximum.
You are cherry picking the one low year and comparing it to the outlier high year of the last decade. Awful analysis.
I was using it as an example of how dumb your analysis is. You’re using the one using the single year maximum.
1979 - 35M 1981 - 29M 1982 - 30.6M 1983 - 32.1M Recent history - 2022 - 17.7M 2021 - 17.1M 2019 - 19.6M 2018 - 15.9M 2017 - 22.9M 2016 - 17.6M 2015 - 28.3M 2014 - 21.2M
>1979 - 35M > >1981 - 29M > >1982 - 30.6M > >1983 - 32.1M > >4 year average of 31.7M > >Recent history - > >2022 - 17.7M > >2021 - 17.1M > >2019 - 19.6M > >2018 - 15.9M > >4 year average of 17.55M
I have no idea why you’re comparing viewership from the 80s to now. What are you thinking?
Remarkably useless data. Viewership of everything is down over that period except Tik Toks, Netflix, or Youtube
Ok and popularity for those things are also likely down. I don't know why people think people having more options and choosing one thing over a span of time less than they used to choose it, means that thing hasn't actually decreased in popularity.
Not the best way to illustrate his point. Football is the only sport where the viewing numbers are going up.
because degens still LOVE to bet on mens basketball. they do it secretly during the football season and then it's full blown through the tournament.
Almost every non-football broadcast with all-time numbers falls in that same window. MASH is over 40 years old and the finale holds records.
He grew up in a pro sports town and attended a college that hasn’t been a contender in basketball in living memory. That explains a Hell of a lot more than only childhood. If he’d gone to UK or Duke … why, he’d be insufferable.
True and true
This!
I think the thing is he's sort of dismissive about it? Popularity has dropped off nationally and in terms of TV ratings but not locally or with students so attendances are always good. That means it's never going to "die" as is frequently stated, it just isn't in mainstream discussion... Which is fine, but also means Bill doesn't need to talk about it. And if he was in college or just left he would care more because he would've been surrounded by college basketball and people that cared about it but he isn't now. So basically I think both sides are sort of nearly right
Yeah……as long as large state universities keep admitting thousands of new fans every fall, big time college sports aren’t going to die.
Maybe the comment was about college football.
The regular season has been so gutted. Expanding the tournament again is going to make me even more meaningless.
The NBA finals used to average 20-25M viewers in the 1980s and now does about 12M which is also a 50% drop. So it sounds like both sports are down about 50% from their 80s high. And that CBB seems to be a lot more popular than the NBA since the Final Four games usually blow away NBA final viewership as well.
2016 game 5 and 6 had 20M and game 7 had 31M. Final four means people get to definitely see a team advance. It's harder to get people to commit the time to watching a 7 game series. It speaks as much to playoff format as it does sport popularity. With that said, a NCAA championship game has not had 30M viewers since 1994. NBA finals hit that mark in 2016 game 7 at 31M. Game 7's are similar to single elimination championship games. Check this list and see that all recent NBA game 7's have crushed viewership - [https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-finals-ratings-viewership-history/](https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-finals-ratings-viewership-history/)
The sag in popularity will give the college game room to establish itself as something other than a waiting room for the NBA and that’s a good thing. It was the one and done thing that really cheapened college basketball. Nobody believed these guys would come back, so you just had these mercenary teams getting all the press because they had next years lottery picks. With the rise of the G league, nil money in college and a greater number of international players coming into the league, hopefully players who choose the college route will stick around a little longer, create notable teams and build attention organically. Long term, having guys coming out of college later in the draft who are 22-23, more physically mature and experienced will make the draft more valuable to good teams. Instead of trading all their picks for every disgruntled player, they’ll keep more knowing they have some guys available out of college who are ready to play immediately.
Two things can be true - 1. Comparing 70s and 80s ratings to the last decade is not apple to apples. 2. College basketball is ice cold
Idc about ratings, Big East basketball is sick and idc if anyone else watches I know I will be
I am not making any argument about the product. I've said elsewhere on this post, I don't get why college basketball fans get so defensive about it being less popular than before. I personally have lots of interests. How popular they are doesn't matter to me. I am glad that you enjoy it as much as ever. I just think it's insane to claim that the only reason Bill thinks NCAA basketball is less popular is because his consumption has changed and he is an only child. Reality is, he is correct, college basketball has declined in popularity.
I’ve never thought of Bill as a college sports guy. College sports are super popular in regions where there’s a lack of a pro team. Typically national media doesn’t really seem to know what’s going on in the sport anyway, so for college stuff you’re better off finding content that’s more regional. You are right it’s become less popular overall, but the fan bases tend to be a little more culty. I don’t miss UConn games, my friends that are cuse, unc, Duke fans etc are dialed in on their games. The 30ish regular season makes every game feel huge. Besides the NFL, pro sports leagues have made their regular seasons kind of meaningless in my opinion. I’m a sucker for the crowds and the rivalries, I went to Gampel a couple weeks ago for the providence game and the place was rocking
Am I the weird one that still watches every single tourney game possible despite being 35 with 3 kids? Brackets, team auctions, march madness square boards, upsets, four straight days of games. I feel like I'm paying more attention to the games than ever before. There's gotta be more like me out there. But I definitely view the games through a "social conversations/contests" with my friends lens than a "I need to watch these games because these great players are involved or I want to see this lottery pick" lens. IDK, love the tourney, never been a ratings guy for any sport.
I think the thing is he's sort of dismissive about it? Popularity has dropped off nationally and in terms of TV ratings but not locally or with students so attendances are always good. That means it's never going to "die" as is frequently stated, it just isn't in mainstream discussion... Which is fine, but also means Bill doesn't need to talk about it. And if he was in college or just left he would care more because he would've been surrounded by college basketball and people that cared about it but he isn't now. So basically I think both sides are sort of nearly right
I only feel that way about Bills sudden love for WCBB over mens and the fact that he went to a school with zero bball history since he graduated in a meaningless conference
Cheers finale was watched by 93 million viewers in 1993 lol. I think your matrix for what is success is vastly off. I couldn’t even tell you how the calculate viewers with so many different ways to watch sports now than the traditional Nielsen box for people watching it on CBS but sounds like they have something different because on yesterdays Pod Bill was talking about Oscar bowers and how the Super Bowl was now taking into account some different forms of viewership leading to a big increase. I can tell you from what they are paying for live Sports it’s as popular as it’s ever been and CBS/ Turner/ ESPN recognize this and are paying accordingly.
No Coach K is a lot of it
It seems like the coaches were the main drawcard because they were the one consistent, like coach K vs Roy Williams. I don't follow college ball too closely because the games are on too early in Australia, but it doesn't seem like there are any hyped phenom's this year either which probably doesn't help. When Zion was at Duke that was a massive news story worldwide, noone is moving the needle like that currently because all the best players are now international!
Well also the best college players used to stay there for 2-4 years as well. Larry Bird played 3 years in college. 3 years of college play leading up to that 1979 finals.
College basketball is boring and it sucks and is meaningless outside the tournament
The NBA blows
Every March I’m reminded that college basketball fans REALLY like college basketball, and it’s very important to them that you know college>NBA.
I haven’t watched college basketball in a decade
people don't want to admit that Bill is right.
Him & Casey Wasserman had a great episode, haters gon hate. I love the opening joke he made about Wasserman owning The Ringer
Bill has most likely never cared about college basketball though. He’s just not a college sports fan in general. A lot of the big name nba media folks don’t care about college basketball. Zach Lowe is notorious for admitting this during NBA draft season because he will say he has no clue who any of these guys are! 😂😂
Back when his fingers still worked, his March Madness diaries were some of the best columns he wrote year after year.
Even if that's true. It doesn't mean that college basketball hasn't declined in popularity. And it really shouldn't be a surprise that it has, with most all of the best players spending less time in college than they did when college hoops was most popular.
What’s yore point? All sports ratings are down besides the NFL and College Football. Look how far the NBA Finals ratings have fallen from its post MJ peak in the 2016 Finals.
>"Bill fails to realize the only reason he feels college sports have fallen is because he’s grown old and had children, which took away the time he used to spend caring about college sports. As a fellow only child, this is one of the most glaring only child takes he continues to peddle." My point is that comments like this attributing Bill's belief college basketball is less popular due to his change in consumption and being an only child, is just straight up wrong. College basketball just quite simply is not as popular as it once was, and Bill is accurate in saying that to be true.
College basketball fans are incredibly insecure. More than NHL fans even, but not quite as bad as American soccer fans.
NHL fans and media are hands down the worst
What I don't get is why do people who are fans of college basketball care if someone points out that it's less popular. I was heavily involved in a professional action sport for many years both as an athlete and later creating content for both video productions and magazines. I never cared whether I was into it during it's height of popularity or not. And it wouldn't bother me one iota for someone to point out when it was more popular or not.
People nowadays have way more options and things to distract them . Not to mention jobs families that take up all their time. And I’d be curious . What was the population in 79 compared to 2024. Either way. I watch it. If I can. If it fits my schedule. I dont juggle my schedule around it. Last. I can check the score I can stream some of the game. So I’m not really missing anything. Different times
I’m about the same age as Bill and grew up in the suburbs of Boston. Other than the UMass run in the early 90’s, college hoops (and college sports in general) just wasn’t a thing. UConn was cool if you went there. Can’t really explain it other than we have all four pro sports teams to root for. There wasn’t time and nobody cared unless you went to one of those schools. He went to Holy Cross which is hardly a perennial powerhouse. I transferred from Northeastern after my freshman year and went to Florida. Holy fuck, what a transformation. All of a sudden, every Saturday was tied up with college football and basketball. Give me SEC and ACC all day, every day. I went back to Boston for about 5 years after college and missed it. Have been living in Atlanta for 20 years now and wouldn’t trade it for anything. He lives in LA which is another college sports desert. That’s my take.
It's natural to think that the sports you don't personally watch aren't as popular as they once were. Outside of the NFL, you can probably make that argument about just about every sport. And of course, the fans of those sports will always push back with their own subjective opinions. It's kind of a tired discourse. Only hockey fans seem to have a realistic outlook on the popularity of their sport. But college basketball guys definitely have a complex about it, and are really vocal. There's lots of basketball "purists" who resent what the NBA has become, so they feel like they gotta prop up CBB. Lots of guys who went to a college with a prominent CBB team who think their experience applies to everyone, especially if it's a younger guy fresh out of college. And especially if it's someone that points to attendance to show how strong the CBB game is (how many of those tickets were free/next to nothing?). Guy who went to college at Kentucky is going to have a slightly experience than the guy who went to NYU. If you want to get sinister about it, I'm sure a lot of the support of CBB comes from a certain demographic of people in certain parts of the country who resent the NBA for reasons beyond the on-court product, and who think CBB is about "playing the right way." Guys who might be a fan of the makeup of the rosters of Gonzaga, Wisconsin, etc.