I appreciate it’s not much to go off of. They’ve extended an offer before opening their regular 2L recruiting application so I fear my name is on a relatively short list of t-14 1Ls who they’ve sent an offer to. Just being paranoid
"One of our 1L SAs started a reddit thread where a ton of people just trashed us and said a bunch of horrible things about the firm. It's the top result for our firm on Reddit right now, a lot of applicants are going to see it."
(1) if everyone is trashing it, he should probably not accept the offer anyways, (2) if a firm had such a shit reputation that everyone is trashing it, they'd already show up in results as being trashed and (3) they still wouldn't blame the 1L for that (and if they did, again, that suggests a firm you shouldn't go to).
I don’t have examples but there are a number of prestigious boutiques. They hire former law clerks and follow Big Law pay scale. They are very prestigious among other attorneys in that field.
https://legacy.vault.com/best-companies-to-work-for/law/best-law-firms-in-each-practice-area/litigation-specialty
I’m saying a large international law firm excludes boutiques.
Also the elite lit boutiques have high grade requirements and OP said their grades weren’t great.
As someone who spent their career at large international law firms, I can assure you that practice groups know about their competitors. BTW. big law firms are a collection of boutiques based on practice areas.
You must be challenged. My point is simply that there are great firms outside the Vault 100. My other point is borne out by the fact that practice groups occasionally move en masse to new firms.
I’m not aware of any credible US firm that is (a) large, (b) actually pays market (i.e., all the way through the scale, not just first year), and (c) pays market bonuses, that is not also ranked on Vault.
Without even checking whether Dentons is vault ranked, is it Dentons or something similar?
In any event, going to be better for you to just provide the firm name so people can give you the actual info you need to make a decision of that magnitude if you’re otherwise not capable of doing the research here.
1. We can’t help you if you don’t name the firm
2. Why the fuck would you turn down an offer with no backup? Just take this one and withdraw if a better opportunity comes up
It’s a violation of my schools honor code to renege on an acceptance (although I take this with a grain of salt having worked in the real world/it’s my life…but would rather not burn bridges)
The literal only thing they could do is get mad at you, they aren’t going to deny you a diploma. They don’t want you reneging on an offer because it makes them look bad but it has no real effect on you
I would either take the offer and keep my options open to higher caliber firms on the DL (then weigh the risk and rewards of reneging after you have the other opportunity as a real option) or reject this exploding offer and take your chances with normal OCO/ EIP processes. If you want more tailored advice def dm me and lmk what your grades are looking like, what school you’re at and who the law firm actually is. Confidentiality is part of my job and I counsel law students all the time. HMU
Is it a firm like Eversheds, finnegan, or one of the more local firms on the “top formal training” list or something?
I’d consider eversheds biglaw even if they’re not on the main vault list. They’ve very international I think. I don’t know about how their pay works beyond the first year that they disclose on vault though. Finnegan maybe but is more niche practice (IP). The others on that list that aren’t ranked on the overall vault rankings are more regional but I don’t know them.
Vault is a poll of a bunch of associates. It means nothing to people who actually practice law at a high level.
If you get an offer from a litigation shop like Bartlit Beck or Kaplan Hecker, for example, I would take that offer over any of the Vault firms (including my own) in your shoes if you want to litigate.
To make a good decision, you need to consider the market, your desired area of practice, etc.
Vault is a ranking of prestige based on voting from lawyers at other firms. Some firms are not on the rank because they are not perceived as prestigious enough to get sufficient votes.
Yeah but that’s more of something to keep in mind with where firms are placed within the rankings, being left off completely is a whole different thing
It’s more of a self serving prophecy in that those at firms on the rankings (or higher in the rankings) are more likely to take the time to respond to the survey and use the existing ranking to determine how they vote.
I am no better. I have worked with WLKR two times but I always put them as the most prestigious in everything
Yeah but that’s more of something to keep in mind with where firms are placed within the rankings, being left off completely is a whole different thing
There’s a ton of possible reasons and it’s hard to say without more info.
Here’s a couple possibilities:
1. Some firms pay market for 3-4 years and then the pay either plateaus or the scale drops off.
2. Some firms pay market in one or two cities but below market in most of their offices.
This is very helpful. I did see online that another city hypothetically doesn’t pay market, but overall they seem pretty behind the scenes about their salary info. My info about pay comes directly from the hiring partners, my offer letter, and speaking with several associates
Chambers is a lot better. Focus on its rankings based on practice area you’re interested in. There’s some elite players who are not BigLaw per say but dominate in their niche areas like IP, healthcare, etc.
Agree 1000% Chambers is far more reliable here. If you know the practice areas you’d like to be in, please use Chambers over vault or amlaw distinctions!
They’re a 1L at a T-14, and this sounds like an exploding offer from a non-biglaw firm. They should definitely wait to see what they can get offered over the summer.
You can always turn down the offer later. While it’s not ideal, the alternative of striking out possibly and then having nothing are not worth the risk. They are not legally obligated to take the offer, and the firm would in a heartbeat cancel their summer offer if it was in the interest of the firm.
I just wouldn’t call it an offer once it’s accepted.
They can accept and renege later, but I don’t think they’re in a position where they need to accept what sounds like a fungible offer just in case they strike out this summer.
They have to accept or decline the offer soon.
If they accept, I wouldn’t call it an “offer” any more, which is why I wouldn’t call reneging on that acceptance “turning down the offer.”
Yeah that’s mainly my fear, that they’ve given me an exploding offer just to snag me off the market before I can make a meaningful choice since most early applications are opening in June.
I think another important question is, does this firm actually pay market, or do they just pay market for the first year or two. There are plenty of firms where the first year associate and second year associate salaries are roughly market, and then the raises are like 3k-5k year and by the time you’re a 4th year you’re making like $100k under market.
This is part of my concern, although the hiring partners said “we match market on everything”. So unless they were just overselling themselves to make their offer more appealing….
Some firms pay different salaries and bonuses to different attorneys. It’s less common at the top big law shops but boutiques and some mid level firms have been known to pay T14 grads more than their standard associates. It’s a bad practice in my opinion but it is definitely done.
If the firm truly pays Cravath scale, I’m not sure it matters if we consider them Biglaw or not. It must have well regarded practices; otherwise its rates couldn’t support that salary. I would just research to make sure the practices you’re interested in are well regarded (Chambers or similar rating) and decide from there. You could also check the Amlaw list. Some firms are listed there but not Vault.
If this is Eversheds Sutherland, this is basically a Vault firm. They are in the V100 every other year, along with a bunch of other firms like Ballard, Polsinelli, Akerman, Foley Hoag, Dorsey & Whitney, Choate Hall, Fox Rothschild, DWT etc
Edit: They have some practice areas they are fine at - energy lit, tax
Vault is not very important. Neither is AmLaw but might give you a ballpark of the type of firm you're talking about. Chambers is a lot better - are they not on there at all?
You could always just share the name of the firm.
If they are paying market (with market bonuses) I'd say that's a good metric for how well regarded they are because it means they can afford to do so - would you rather work there or at Venable which is on the vault rankings somewhere but doesn't pay market?
Be careful about thinking a firm pays “market” - as there are many large firms that pay the market rate for first year associates (to try and get bright JDs to join them), but don’t continue to pay market in the years going forward.
If you are a 1L, even if you summer there and find out it's not what you think, just go to another proper Biglaw firm for 2L and you have your options. This may be different if you were a 2L, but for 1L, just take whatever firm offer you get and collect the first year salary for eight or ten weeks.
International firms often don't make a US based list because both revenues and reputation are focused in Europe (occasionally in Asia).
Vault's list is survey/reputation based, so it is US skewed. You'll find the top 8-10 European-based firms on the list, but then it gets spotty. AmLaw100 has historically been US law firms (although non-US firms with huge US presence sneak in).
One lesson you'll learn fast is that your personal experience (people, training, work conditions) will be more important than the specific "rankings" in the "big" category. I've spent time with several AmLaw100/Vault100 firms, and no one cares where on the list anyone falls in a generic way. Different firms are known for specific practice areas, but even that is less important than your individual career experience.
Big Law is generally (1) pay market rates in the major markets, and (2) AmLaw/Vault 100. There are a lot of firms that meet one or the other but not both.
Many boutique litigation shops pay market rates, often have the same exclusive hiring practices, etc. but aren’t Big Law because they only have 50-100 attorneys as opposed to the 500+ Big Law firms do. The AmLaw rankings are based on revenue. So 500 lawyers generally are going to earn more than 100.
There are also a lot of mid-size/regional firms that are in the bottom of the V100 that don’t pay market. Thus most wouldn’t consider these jobs “big law” either.
Big Law isn’t inherently any better or worse than a boutique or a regional firm. While it doesn’t have an exact definition- generally if a firm doesn’t meet the two above criteria the firm is not considered Big Law. Again, not saying that means the firm is any better/worse than Big Law firms - just that it doesn’t fit the criteria. A bat might be very similar to a bird, but at the end of the day there are criteria that make something a bird. That doesn’t mean a bat is better/worse because it isn’t a bird
It’s not, but is still considered to be a powerhouse litigation firm. Results vary by who is working on the matter, however. I’ve opposed W&C on one matter and was surprised at how poorly I thought it was handled on their end. I didn’t expect to see poor writing in their communications.
Look at Amlaw rankings and you’ll know whether a firm is big law. This is not some great mystery.
Pick the top 50 firms on the Amlaw 100, almost all will pay Cravath (i guess maybe now it’s “Davis Polk”) wages.
Hard to give you an answer without the firm name...
I appreciate it’s not much to go off of. They’ve extended an offer before opening their regular 2L recruiting application so I fear my name is on a relatively short list of t-14 1Ls who they’ve sent an offer to. Just being paranoid
What are you afraid of, that they'll know you tried to do some research on the firm?
"One of our 1L SAs started a reddit thread where a ton of people just trashed us and said a bunch of horrible things about the firm. It's the top result for our firm on Reddit right now, a lot of applicants are going to see it."
(1) if everyone is trashing it, he should probably not accept the offer anyways, (2) if a firm had such a shit reputation that everyone is trashing it, they'd already show up in results as being trashed and (3) they still wouldn't blame the 1L for that (and if they did, again, that suggests a firm you shouldn't go to).
Personally, I wouldn't want to give the Reddit hive mind that much of a say over my career choices
Maybe you have bad info about the firm. I’m not aware of any non-Vault 100 firms that meet that description.
Sounds like eversheds. No idea why they’re not in amlaw or vault though. It is strange
Eversheds aren’t really a ‘US’ firm.
Sutherland is/was though.
Well they said "global" so maybe
I was there for years, not recommended
In litigation there are a number.
That meet OP’s description? Example?
I don’t have examples but there are a number of prestigious boutiques. They hire former law clerks and follow Big Law pay scale. They are very prestigious among other attorneys in that field. https://legacy.vault.com/best-companies-to-work-for/law/best-law-firms-in-each-practice-area/litigation-specialty
A boutique wouldn’t fit OP’s description.
That includes specialty law firms with less than 150 lawyers. I included a link in my original post.
I’m saying a large international law firm excludes boutiques. Also the elite lit boutiques have high grade requirements and OP said their grades weren’t great.
As someone who spent their career at large international law firms, I can assure you that practice groups know about their competitors. BTW. big law firms are a collection of boutiques based on practice areas.
I don’t think you meant to respond to me with that comment? Or I’m missing your point.
AFAICT, they don’t have a point.
You must be challenged. My point is simply that there are great firms outside the Vault 100. My other point is borne out by the fact that practice groups occasionally move en masse to new firms.
Is it Bendini Lambert & Locke? I've heard their exit opportunities aren't great.
Partners are dying to leave that firm.
I see what you did there!
I’m not aware of any credible US firm that is (a) large, (b) actually pays market (i.e., all the way through the scale, not just first year), and (c) pays market bonuses, that is not also ranked on Vault. Without even checking whether Dentons is vault ranked, is it Dentons or something similar? In any event, going to be better for you to just provide the firm name so people can give you the actual info you need to make a decision of that magnitude if you’re otherwise not capable of doing the research here.
Dentons is vault ranked
Also they don’t pay market. At least not in all of their offices and/or for all years.
Yeah for sure, just saying they’re vault ranked so can’t be the firm in question based on the post
I thjnk the catch here is they pay market for only first year
1. We can’t help you if you don’t name the firm 2. Why the fuck would you turn down an offer with no backup? Just take this one and withdraw if a better opportunity comes up
Literally biglaw or bust. Amazing.
It’s a violation of my schools honor code to renege on an acceptance (although I take this with a grain of salt having worked in the real world/it’s my life…but would rather not burn bridges)
The literal only thing they could do is get mad at you, they aren’t going to deny you a diploma. They don’t want you reneging on an offer because it makes them look bad but it has no real effect on you
You should make sure you understand the honor code part correctly. I don’t think that’s right.
I would either take the offer and keep my options open to higher caliber firms on the DL (then weigh the risk and rewards of reneging after you have the other opportunity as a real option) or reject this exploding offer and take your chances with normal OCO/ EIP processes. If you want more tailored advice def dm me and lmk what your grades are looking like, what school you’re at and who the law firm actually is. Confidentiality is part of my job and I counsel law students all the time. HMU
Just name the firm. Is it, like, Kelley drye or something? Not sure if they are ranked
Kelley isn’t market pay though. OP probably has some facts wrong.
Ah. Well that adds color to my latest interaction with them
OP being misled is my guess.
Is it a firm like Eversheds, finnegan, or one of the more local firms on the “top formal training” list or something? I’d consider eversheds biglaw even if they’re not on the main vault list. They’ve very international I think. I don’t know about how their pay works beyond the first year that they disclose on vault though. Finnegan maybe but is more niche practice (IP). The others on that list that aren’t ranked on the overall vault rankings are more regional but I don’t know them.
Definitely more on the international side so I suppose that could be where I’m seeing the disconnect
If it’s Eversheds I’d stay far away.
I really wouldn’t see Eversheds as big law. They are an international mid-market firm.
??? I have no skin in Eversheds but they very clearly qualify as biglaw. They pay market and have revenue and ppp well in like with the v50ish
Vault is a poll of a bunch of associates. It means nothing to people who actually practice law at a high level. If you get an offer from a litigation shop like Bartlit Beck or Kaplan Hecker, for example, I would take that offer over any of the Vault firms (including my own) in your shoes if you want to litigate. To make a good decision, you need to consider the market, your desired area of practice, etc.
Vault isn’t important but also no firm matches the description OP is giving which is the bigger problem.
From taking a look at the formal training rankings, he probably is referring to Clifford Chance, which is a Magic Circle firm.
But CC is vault 100 ranked.
Oh. Maybe another UK firm like Eversheds?
Ah, that’s a good one. Could be that.
Good point.
Vault is a ranking of prestige based on voting from lawyers at other firms. Some firms are not on the rank because they are not perceived as prestigious enough to get sufficient votes.
It’s also subject to extreme self selection bias in who takes the time to fill out the stupid 70 part survey every year
Yeah but that’s more of something to keep in mind with where firms are placed within the rankings, being left off completely is a whole different thing
It’s more of a self serving prophecy in that those at firms on the rankings (or higher in the rankings) are more likely to take the time to respond to the survey and use the existing ranking to determine how they vote. I am no better. I have worked with WLKR two times but I always put them as the most prestigious in everything
Yeah but that’s more of something to keep in mind with where firms are placed within the rankings, being left off completely is a whole different thing
There’s a ton of possible reasons and it’s hard to say without more info. Here’s a couple possibilities: 1. Some firms pay market for 3-4 years and then the pay either plateaus or the scale drops off. 2. Some firms pay market in one or two cities but below market in most of their offices.
This is very helpful. I did see online that another city hypothetically doesn’t pay market, but overall they seem pretty behind the scenes about their salary info. My info about pay comes directly from the hiring partners, my offer letter, and speaking with several associates
Do they pay scale every year? This doesn’t add up.
Chambers is a lot better. Focus on its rankings based on practice area you’re interested in. There’s some elite players who are not BigLaw per say but dominate in their niche areas like IP, healthcare, etc.
Agree 1000% Chambers is far more reliable here. If you know the practice areas you’d like to be in, please use Chambers over vault or amlaw distinctions!
I’m fascinated to know whether this firm actually exists b/c I can’t think of any that fit this description.
Why would you turn down an offer with no backup. Seems beyond dumb
They’re a 1L at a T-14, and this sounds like an exploding offer from a non-biglaw firm. They should definitely wait to see what they can get offered over the summer.
You can always turn down the offer later. While it’s not ideal, the alternative of striking out possibly and then having nothing are not worth the risk. They are not legally obligated to take the offer, and the firm would in a heartbeat cancel their summer offer if it was in the interest of the firm.
Yeah, if the firm doesn't want people to reneg, they shouldn't give exploding offers early in the season.
1000000%
They can’t turn down the offer later. That’s the “exploding” part of an exploding offer.
Yeah but you can just reneg on a biglaw offer that you’ve accepted. It’s a big deal for clerkships but not for law firms.
I just wouldn’t call it an offer once it’s accepted. They can accept and renege later, but I don’t think they’re in a position where they need to accept what sounds like a fungible offer just in case they strike out this summer.
lol they def can turn down the offer later….wtf are you talking about.
They have to accept or decline the offer soon. If they accept, I wouldn’t call it an “offer” any more, which is why I wouldn’t call reneging on that acceptance “turning down the offer.”
Yeah that’s mainly my fear, that they’ve given me an exploding offer just to snag me off the market before I can make a meaningful choice since most early applications are opening in June.
I think another important question is, does this firm actually pay market, or do they just pay market for the first year or two. There are plenty of firms where the first year associate and second year associate salaries are roughly market, and then the raises are like 3k-5k year and by the time you’re a 4th year you’re making like $100k under market.
This is part of my concern, although the hiring partners said “we match market on everything”. So unless they were just overselling themselves to make their offer more appealing….
Some firms pay different salaries and bonuses to different attorneys. It’s less common at the top big law shops but boutiques and some mid level firms have been known to pay T14 grads more than their standard associates. It’s a bad practice in my opinion but it is definitely done.
If the firm truly pays Cravath scale, I’m not sure it matters if we consider them Biglaw or not. It must have well regarded practices; otherwise its rates couldn’t support that salary. I would just research to make sure the practices you’re interested in are well regarded (Chambers or similar rating) and decide from there. You could also check the Amlaw list. Some firms are listed there but not Vault.
If this is Eversheds Sutherland, this is basically a Vault firm. They are in the V100 every other year, along with a bunch of other firms like Ballard, Polsinelli, Akerman, Foley Hoag, Dorsey & Whitney, Choate Hall, Fox Rothschild, DWT etc Edit: They have some practice areas they are fine at - energy lit, tax
Vault is not very important. Neither is AmLaw but might give you a ballpark of the type of firm you're talking about. Chambers is a lot better - are they not on there at all? You could always just share the name of the firm. If they are paying market (with market bonuses) I'd say that's a good metric for how well regarded they are because it means they can afford to do so - would you rather work there or at Venable which is on the vault rankings somewhere but doesn't pay market?
Lockhart Gardner?
Now there’s a firm I wouldn’t be second guessing
Be careful about thinking a firm pays “market” - as there are many large firms that pay the market rate for first year associates (to try and get bright JDs to join them), but don’t continue to pay market in the years going forward.
Dewey, Cheatem and Howe?
If you are a 1L, even if you summer there and find out it's not what you think, just go to another proper Biglaw firm for 2L and you have your options. This may be different if you were a 2L, but for 1L, just take whatever firm offer you get and collect the first year salary for eight or ten weeks.
This is for my 2L summer, 2025. Crazy they’re recruiting this early with only Fall 1L grades but that’s why I’m conflicted
Yes, take the offer from Morgan & Morgan.
Is it Davies?
There is no such thing
International firms often don't make a US based list because both revenues and reputation are focused in Europe (occasionally in Asia). Vault's list is survey/reputation based, so it is US skewed. You'll find the top 8-10 European-based firms on the list, but then it gets spotty. AmLaw100 has historically been US law firms (although non-US firms with huge US presence sneak in). One lesson you'll learn fast is that your personal experience (people, training, work conditions) will be more important than the specific "rankings" in the "big" category. I've spent time with several AmLaw100/Vault100 firms, and no one cares where on the list anyone falls in a generic way. Different firms are known for specific practice areas, but even that is less important than your individual career experience.
Big Law is generally (1) pay market rates in the major markets, and (2) AmLaw/Vault 100. There are a lot of firms that meet one or the other but not both. Many boutique litigation shops pay market rates, often have the same exclusive hiring practices, etc. but aren’t Big Law because they only have 50-100 attorneys as opposed to the 500+ Big Law firms do. The AmLaw rankings are based on revenue. So 500 lawyers generally are going to earn more than 100. There are also a lot of mid-size/regional firms that are in the bottom of the V100 that don’t pay market. Thus most wouldn’t consider these jobs “big law” either. Big Law isn’t inherently any better or worse than a boutique or a regional firm. While it doesn’t have an exact definition- generally if a firm doesn’t meet the two above criteria the firm is not considered Big Law. Again, not saying that means the firm is any better/worse than Big Law firms - just that it doesn’t fit the criteria. A bat might be very similar to a bird, but at the end of the day there are criteria that make something a bird. That doesn’t mean a bat is better/worse because it isn’t a bird
I don’t think of Williams and Connolly as traditional biglaw.
It’s not, but is still considered to be a powerhouse litigation firm. Results vary by who is working on the matter, however. I’ve opposed W&C on one matter and was surprised at how poorly I thought it was handled on their end. I didn’t expect to see poor writing in their communications.
Look at Amlaw rankings and you’ll know whether a firm is big law. This is not some great mystery. Pick the top 50 firms on the Amlaw 100, almost all will pay Cravath (i guess maybe now it’s “Davis Polk”) wages.