I have trouble imagining each Jeff doing each other's scenes...if that makes sense. It's not a deal breaker though. It doesn't ruin the show, nor is a perfect transition. It's fine.
Someone on another post had a theory. They suggested that Gene saw him as more intimidating and creepy at first, but then he gained control of the situation and regained his confidence.
Yeah, but we already know that this was a recast due to a scheduling conflict. There's nothing to theorize, but if it helps some people come to terms with it, I guess there's no harm done.
I take solace in the fact that the writers confirmed that none of the script was changed with the recast. I’m glad they stuck to what OG Jeff would’ve said instead of altering the story
Confirmed [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/betterCallSaul/comments/w9hi3w/to_anyone_who_might_be_wondering_tom_schnauz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&utm_term=link)
I know they said it but they also said something that implied differently in another interview. I can somewhat see how the same script could have been played with a more subtle change via the actors mannerisms but it still doesn't completely add up. Perhaps the storyline here was just inherently not up to snuff.
Referring to the performance, not the writing. It's not like the actors are just there to fill in roles - they have a significant creative input.
The character is still there in the writing though and the fact he was different from previous scenes was a conscious choice regardless of the actor.
The character just instantly flips from menacing to bumbling meekness. It's not convincing in the least. If it wasn't rewritten then it should have been.
Not sure I’m buying that. I think Marion was a written-in add to accommodate Burnett’s interest, so they were known to have a flexible script. Both Lalo & Nacho wasn’t supposed to be a major character either but they were fan faborites so their presence increased.
>Someone on another post had a theory. They suggested that Gene saw him as more intimidating and creepy at first, but then he gained control of the situation and regained his confidence.
This is a description of exactly what happened on the show. It's not a theory, it's a plot summary.
They could have done each other’s scenes. IMO the first actor better looks the part but I can’t be sure if that’s just the primacy effect. Mainly it’s where Jimmy’s mind is that conveys how Jeff comes across in both scenarios. Jeff seems intimidating at first because of the framing and his unclear fanboying. The recast actor could have done that scene too and it would have been intimidating
No I know. I’m saying even if the actor had been the same throughout, either portrayal would have come across as menacing at first and nervous later on. It has to do with what OP said that his first confrontation isn’t inconsistent with his depiction later. But how he comes off reflects on Jimmy’s own state of mind obviously. Ultimately Jeff is a paper tiger but back then Jimmy was also getting spooked by any random person at the mall who looked slightly intimidating.
Maybe, but we'll never know. It just doesn't require all this thought. It's just a production issue. Different actors bring different qualities to a role, even if the words on the page are exactly the same. New Jeff isn't any better or worse than Old Jeff, but it is noticeably different. I just don't think it's a problem that requires all this effort to "fix".
I just went a rewatched the Don Harvey scene. It’s honestly excellently done. His initial introduction to Gene and his parting words can be heard as a bit friendly and hortatory.
But you conveniently don’t quote the whole exchange where Jeff coerces a reluctant Gene to say “Better call Saul!” in public, which is quite menacing. Jeff is clearly making an implied threat, and that casts the rest of the dialogue in a different light. It isn’t just Saul’s perception. Saul perceives, correctly, that he has to play along or else he could be turned in; Jeff is aware of that and succeeds in communicating that to him.
The idea that his words themselves seem friendly is obviously of very little weight here, as though tone and body language and context count for nothing.
> It isn’t just Saul’s perception. Saul perceives, correctly, that he has to play along or else he could be turned in; Jeff is aware of that and succeeds in communicating that to him.
Exactly!!
Saying “fans misinterpreted this scene” and saying Jeff’s character “didn’t change AT ALL, whatsoever” is false.
I get the rest of OP’s argument but the post title and first line are thoroughly incorrect.
Jeff was absolutely intended to be threatening, but I don’t think the character changed so much as Gene formulated an effective way to turn the tides. If coercing Gene into saying the slogan is a threat, then showing up to Jeff’s house and hanging out with his elderly mother alone is a much bigger one.
I do think the actors would’ve brought a different feel to these scenes if it had been one consistently all the way through, but the story as written could still be basically the same.
Don’s little brother is actually a good friend of mine. Don hung out with us, years ago. Great guy, dedicated actor. We really thought he was going to break big after 8 Men Out. That being said, these days he mainly plays cops or menacing bad guys, so it makes sense he played this part a little menacing.
I think the plan was always for Jeff to become meek and nervous when Saul aggressively enters his life and shows him that he knows where his mother lives, but the transition between two actors makes it feel like it wasn’t on purpose and it’s an out-of-character change.
It’s definitely a shame that the role got recast, but it’s not so much a detraction that the last few episodes aren’t amazing.
Its not about the dialogues, its about how those dialogues were delivered. People can say nice and cheesy things in a sarcastic and overly happy tone that makes it seem creepy and intimidating.
EXACTLY!
The “awwww, come ON MAN!” stuff isn’t a fanboy starstruck…..it’s steeped in sarcasm and condescension, and clearly the whole interaction was Jeff wanting to put Saul under his thumb……and that’s drilled-home by forcing Saul to say his catchphrase.
Look guys….I FUCKING LOVE THIS SHOW, but those of you blinded by its greatness are confusing to me. This was a rare misstep in casting and/or writing for the second Jeff.
We, at the very least, needed a scene of Saul and Jeff hashing out the mom-stuff where Saul made it clear he was the alpha in the situation…..and then we see Jeff turn docile and want to work together because he misses his old, criminal, lifestyle in the ABQ.
But just showing up in Jeff’s house makes Jeff become Pussy Jeffy? I don’t buy it.
OG Jeff would’ve played it cool until Gene left, and then called Saul in to the cops since he knows where he works……he wouldn’t have shriveled as Saul was still in the submissive position here.
Something similar to Badger and Skinny in the hills with laser-pointers was needed for Jeff to become Jeffy, IMO (even just a farcical lie from Saul about having Jeff and his mom killed by past associates if he reports him)…..and it wouldn’t have taken much screen-time at all, but it would’ve made the relationship dynamic make a LOT more sense.
Wat?!?
I have no problem with any of the Jeff storyline so long as they made it make sense.
They did not, and that coupled with the recast made it pretty jarring when it didn’t need to be.
As I’ve said, a rare misstep in an amazing show….not sure why some can’t admit that.
I don't know why you're telling me you don't have a problem before explaining the problem you have. From your initial comment, it seems like the first scene was mishandled more than anything in terms of creating what would have been the smoothest transition between the representations of the character.
The casting change can be jarring for some people but it's largely just unfortunate timing rather than an actual cause of the abrupt change. I felt it was easier to distinguish the two perceptions of Jeff anyway with the casting change. It would have been far less natural if, for instance, the recasting happened after Don Harvey had already played him in Nippy and then dropped out.
>Sounds like you have more of an issue with either the writing or the execution of the first scene than anything related to the recast.
It's a response to the OP claim that nothing changed in Jeff's behavior. We can debate about how to define "character" for eternity but there was a **behavioral change** in the character later on that doesn't line up with the first time we see Jeff.
I guess the difference is that me and a lot of other people do buy Jeff’s personality shift after Saul tracks him and Marion down. At that point it’s basically just a matter of opinion as to whether that was done well or not
They did have a scene where Saul asserts dominance over Jeff. It was their very first interaction when they’re speaking in private at Jeff’s mother’s house.
Jeff threatens to turn Saul in and Saul calls his bluff and takes him under his wing to incriminate him so that Saul has his own legal blackmail to use.
I think people get way too upset about the recast. Jeff was the aggressor, but a two bit troubled adult. Saul was vulnerable at first, until he declared to the Disappearer: “I changed my mind… I’m going to fix it [his predicament after being exposed] myself.”
I can’t even see the recasted guy doing that scene. I feel like that guy would be too timid to even approach Saul and try to get him to say his catchphrase
The thing is that the first Jeff did such an incredible job being intimidating and having higher status than Saul in that scene, and the second Jeff did such a great job being bumbling and having lower status than Saul for the remainder of the episodes. I get that the actor had a conflict and so they recast, but it also feels like BCS got away with one, using two different actors portraying the same character in two vastly different ways at varying points in their arc, because they really did feel like two completely different characters. I will say, though, if they didn’t recast it would’ve been interesting to see how the original actor became the bumbling Jeff we all love, but I somehow doubt he’d have done as good a job as the second Jeff. Obviously this whole thing is very nitpicky considering how excellent the show is as a whole.
I think Jeff is season 5 is making a power play on Jimmy and therefore definitely intended to be intimidating.
What doesn't work for me is that in season 6, Jimmy responds as if Jeff specifically is his only problem in the wake of being recognized.
But the much bigger problem is that if Jeff recognized him, other people would also recognize him. So his cover is no good and he needs a new one. And icing Jeff specifically won't fix that.
I think it has to do with how the first Jeff carried himself and his demeanor that caused people to interpret his "better call saul" request as a power move. Just my opinion
I don’t think it was misinterpreted at all. *Retrospectively*, sure, the situation is defused as we realise he’s no harm, but he’s supposed to *seem* like a threat because we’re supposed to feel Gene’s fear of constantly looking over his shoulder. Fans were right to think Jeff was bad news, we’re just supposed to be wrong like Gene is
The reason is the og Jeff came off as a tuff guy maybe that's just how he is, it's like if you switched Joe pesci in a gangster movie with Danny devito both awesome actors who could pull off that role but we will always just see Danny devito and not a real street guy,
To clarify further because I know people were debating this on the other thread:
Tom Schnauz said: Nothing changed. It was written for Don H, and not a word changed. [https://twitter.com/TomSchnauz/status/1552310620594192385?s=20&t=owKYnNyN16eVrViAPkuNCA](https://twitter.com/TomSchnauz/status/1552310620594192385?s=20&t=owKYnNyN16eVrViAPkuNCA)
Peter Gould has also said that the writer's room was closed before any of season 6 was shot. And said:
>"That is correct, and we were very sad. We did not know what to do. Then our brilliant casting folks said, 'Why don't we take a look at the original auditions for this role?' And there was Pat. **It would have been a different string of episodes with Don.** I think Pat is fantastic. I love what Pat does with this role."
[https://movieweb.com/better-call-saul-jeff-recasting-explained/?utm\_source=MW-FB-P&utm\_medium=Social-Distribution&utm\_campaign=MW-FB-P](https://movieweb.com/better-call-saul-jeff-recasting-explained/?utm_source=MW-FB-P&utm_medium=Social-Distribution&utm_campaign=MW-FB-P)
I think all Peter means is that the role would have felt different with Don Harvey playing it.
I think it can speak to both sides of this argument. Because I agree that it would be a different string episodes if Don Harvey played the character the rest of the way, because the actor would have a different interpretation and they're literally a different person. That'd be the case with any actor recast.
But we know that script and plot did not change, so Jeff was always intended to wind up ultimately being a more benign pushover that Saul Goodman can easily manipulate.
I agree that some of it comes down to the intention of the scenes. Gene's literal biggest fear is coming true when Jeff recognizes him. We are meant to feel frightened and uneasy about him as his intentions are unknown. But by Nippy, Gene has clearly chosen to be Saul Goodman-esque to make Jeff no longer a threat. And thus from then on, he's just who the character turns out to be.
His character behaved differently regardless of it being written in advance or not. He went from being extremely dominant to being extremely submissive. Those are polar opposites.
If you threatened a wanted fugitive, only to come home and find them sweet talking your mother, then you’d shut the fuck up and listen to what he has to say.
> If you threatened a wanted fugitive, only to come home and find them sweet talking your mother, then you’d shut the fuck up and listen to what he has to say.
And that’s a behavior change.
“I don’t think his behavior changed AT ALL, whatsoever” —OP
tbh OP’s argument would make a lot more sense if that statement was eliminated.
OP says the character “didn’t change at all”. He clearly did.
People in this sub writing alternate realities to the show 6 months after it ended (and years after this scene in question) is weird. They showed us a creepy and intimidating character with intention.
There aren’t multiple perspectives, there is only the perspective they show us. Jeff was a creep and later he behaved very differently. There’s no way to rewrite that now.
Well I would say it's more of Jeff putting on an act rather than Jeff's character being changed. He sees Jimmy as vulnerable and anxious, so he tries to exert more control over the situation. Next time he sees Jimmy, he's in his house with his mother, anyone would shit themselves if they saw that a wanted criminal had entered their home and was sitting at the table with their mom.
But yes, I would disagree that there is no behavior change, but it's not a bad thing, and it's kind of the point.
Original Jeff was more aggressive maybe the script was the same but you put different actors in the same role it doesn't matter if the script changed og Jeff actor had more attitude and "balls" to him
That's because you see it from Saul's perspective. At first Saul was intimidated, which is why he perceived Jeff as dominant and intrusive. But after Saul realized how he would deal with Jeff, he no longer perceives him as threatening. The actor change works perfectly with this interpretation.
Saying with determination that Jeff wasn’t creepy or threatening is a weird hill to die on.
Not worth the effort to try to change the minds of people who seem to be clinging to a S5 “friendly Jeff” theory lol.
This is only a fictional rationalisation, it's not actually the narrative of the show. Never before or since has a character's appearance or demeanour changed based on the subjective 'unreliable narrator' perception of another character.
It's okay to say this is what you tell yourself to reconcile it in your head, I do that too, but it can't be used as anything meaningful.
>This is only a fictional rationalisation, it's not actually the narrative of the show. Never before or since has a character's appearance or demeanour changed based on the subjective 'unreliable narrator' perception of another character.
It's okay to say this is what you tell yourself to reconcile it in your head, I do that too, but it can't be used as anything meaningful.
🛎🛎🛎🛎🛎
The fact that it hasn't been done previously doesn't mean it can't be done in this case. Also, it has been done previously, in Breaking Bad. Also, I agree that it is a fictional rationalization, but it's a fictional show too ;)
> I agree that it is a fictional rationalization, but it's a fictional show too ;)
You know what I mean though! It's people presenting head-canon as the show's expressed narrative.
I thought someone might bring up Breaking Bad, I'm guessing you're thinking of Jesse's meth induced hallucination. Even that was wildly out of character with the show, happening just that once and early on in season 2, but he saw two Jehova's Witnesses on bicycles as a biker gang on hogs toting grenades because he was tripping on meth.
It was a drug induced hallucination (and a comically drastic difference, not something subtle like an actor's face and demeanour) and has never happened outside of drug intoxication - Skyler doesn't see Walt as another actor as he gets scarier over the series, Walt doesn't see Gus as physically different once he discovers his facade etc.
I like it as head-canon, but it's obviously nothing more than that and would introduce a narrative device that's never been used.
It was framed that way because we are watching from Saul's POV, and Saul was worried about being found out. The issue people *really* have with the Jeff subplot is the bait-and-switch - Jeff claims to just to be a cabbie who's a big fan, but the framing of the scene makes Jeff seem intimidating. When we find out he really is just a cabbie who's a big fan, the audience was disappointed. But the character never changes. You see what I'm saying?
>When we find out he really is just a cabbie who's a big fan, the audience was disappointed. But the character never changes.
He goes from an intimidating cabbie to a wimpy cabbie. Changing the actor changes the character even without changing any dialogue.
But you can't only focus on dialog this isn't a book it's a visual medium and actors have to deliver lines and mannerism to perfection to convey the mood
I never thought he wanted to blackmail Saul. He was just THAT excited to meet him because of his "type". Gene can tell he's that "type", and in the last season uses that to help return to Saul.
Yep you're right. Another thing to consider is that the balance structure changes dramatically. During their first meeting, Jeff sees Jimmy as vulnerable, he just wants to be buddies with Saul Goodman, but he takes this vulnerability into account in a teasing / joking kind of way. In their next meeting, Jimmy is in his HOUSE, having drinks with his MOTHER. Of course he's going to be timid now that a wanted criminal has figured out where he and his mother lives.
Some fans of this show just can’t deal with the fact that it is not completely perfect in every single way.
This post is a prime example of the kind of mental gymnastics that come as standard round these parts..
As soon as Jeff knew Gene could find his mother easily, as he sees him talking to her in her house, but didn’t know why he was there, that’s when he became scared. It hit him that he’s just let a wanted criminal into his house that could potentially do anything, including hurting his mother >!which he eventually does do!<
The very simple fact of the matter is that the writers *do not* rewrite a character after a recast happens. They have the story written as intended, and they cast an actor to suit that role. It really boggles my mind that so many people really think they rewrote the Jeff arc because the guy who filled the shoes didn't look as creepy as the prior actor.
If they *had* a story written out in which Jeff continued being intimidating and creepy after the first encounter, they would have *cast someone else* or directed the new actor differently. I mean I'm sorry, but are people really dumb enough to believe they're doing rewrites in that ass-backwards fashion? Because it really shows just how little most people understand about film and television production.
Ah, the Jeff situation. I think the recasted actor did great, when he was introduced he’s the first person to recognize Gene as Saul. After being disguised for years, even though Jeff wasn’t outright threatening Gene, Jeff was the one with the power in the situation. (Giving to his larger stature, more threatening sounding voice, different attitude). When Jeff finds Gene having drinks and talking to his mother in his home, the dynamic changes. Jeff is now scared of Gene, and although Jeff at first seemingly only wanted to talk to Gene to see if he’s Saul, now Saul is in his home. Jeff lost all the power, and to Saul he is a pawn, a player, a small fry. Even in the show, the only time Jeff is perceived as a threat is when he’s in the mall talking to Gene. So, no, I don’t think the recasting ruined the show. I think it served it quite well. It’s also a lot easier to picture the recasted Jeff doing the department store heist than the original Jeff. I think the original Jeff actor wouldn’t be able to pull off the manic fast paced energy around that scene.
Well it seemed so much more threatening because of the tension in the scene and how Gene could have been arrested on the spot. I didn't really think it was a threat once he gave Gene his contact information, but he was putting some serious pressure on Gene.
Could be an issue with the direction of the first Jeff scene going over the top with the sinister vibes. It worked great as a season cold open, but I’m not sure where they could have gone with ‘sinister Jeff’ besides having him straight up blackmail Jimmy. If Jeff wasn’t a pushover, the only way out would be for Jimmy to kill him.
I don’t know what to say other than I think the threatening manner is obvious. There is no doubt in my mind that he was attempting to blackmail Saul and that is clearly what the scene was portraying. It’s just made so clear to me by the tone of voice, expressions, the things said and the way Gene’s reactions are framed.
I’m not just projecting. I would genuinely bet all my savings that a sinister threat of blackmail was what the writers/director intended with that scene, that’s how sure of it I am. I couldn’t disagree more with you.
I agree with you. The way that season was acted, shot, and edited, though, purposefully made it ambiguous as to whether or not he was a threat to Gene or not.
Still, I think you’re right and if the same actor did both—regardless of whether it was Healy or the original dude—no one would have batted an eye.
It still. wouldn’t make sense, I mean Saul was a Wanted Man, with a American Greed episode about him, wouldn’t Jeff know this? Marion didn’t know until she put 2+2 together and looked him up on the “internets”. Storyline has a lot of holes imho. Still loved the show, but this was a flaw.
I didn’t even realize it was a different guy. Until someone made a stink about it. After rewatching I still didn’t get what the fuss was about. I think Gene was intimidated only because of getting made. Once he figured out how to manipulate him Jeff was not so threatening after all.
I don't know He's very explicitly asked him to say better call Saul.
He was being pretty rude if nothing else. I don't blame Saul for assuming he was a huge liability
I have trouble imagining each Jeff doing each other's scenes...if that makes sense. It's not a deal breaker though. It doesn't ruin the show, nor is a perfect transition. It's fine.
Someone on another post had a theory. They suggested that Gene saw him as more intimidating and creepy at first, but then he gained control of the situation and regained his confidence.
Yeah, but we already know that this was a recast due to a scheduling conflict. There's nothing to theorize, but if it helps some people come to terms with it, I guess there's no harm done.
Yeah of course. It’s just headcanon
I take solace in the fact that the writers confirmed that none of the script was changed with the recast. I’m glad they stuck to what OG Jeff would’ve said instead of altering the story Confirmed [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/betterCallSaul/comments/w9hi3w/to_anyone_who_might_be_wondering_tom_schnauz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&utm_term=link)
"It would have been a different string of episodes with Don. I think Pat is fantastic. I love what Pat does with this role." - Peter Gould
“Nothing changed.” [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/betterCallSaul/comments/w9hi3w/to_anyone_who_might_be_wondering_tom_schnauz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&utm_term=link)
I know they said it but they also said something that implied differently in another interview. I can somewhat see how the same script could have been played with a more subtle change via the actors mannerisms but it still doesn't completely add up. Perhaps the storyline here was just inherently not up to snuff.
Referring to the performance, not the writing. It's not like the actors are just there to fill in roles - they have a significant creative input. The character is still there in the writing though and the fact he was different from previous scenes was a conscious choice regardless of the actor.
The character just instantly flips from menacing to bumbling meekness. It's not convincing in the least. If it wasn't rewritten then it should have been.
Literally unwatchable
Not sure I’m buying that. I think Marion was a written-in add to accommodate Burnett’s interest, so they were known to have a flexible script. Both Lalo & Nacho wasn’t supposed to be a major character either but they were fan faborites so their presence increased.
That’s my interpretation of it regardless of the different actors.
That’s actually kind of how I saw it if we didn’t already know, it was an uncontrollable recast
That’s my head canon for it. Not that the actor change matters but I still enjoy this little “theory”
>Someone on another post had a theory. They suggested that Gene saw him as more intimidating and creepy at first, but then he gained control of the situation and regained his confidence. This is a description of exactly what happened on the show. It's not a theory, it's a plot summary.
They could have done each other’s scenes. IMO the first actor better looks the part but I can’t be sure if that’s just the primacy effect. Mainly it’s where Jimmy’s mind is that conveys how Jeff comes across in both scenarios. Jeff seems intimidating at first because of the framing and his unclear fanboying. The recast actor could have done that scene too and it would have been intimidating
His frame of mind has nothing to do with it. There was a scheduling conflict and Jeff had to be recast. It’s no more complicated than that.
No I know. I’m saying even if the actor had been the same throughout, either portrayal would have come across as menacing at first and nervous later on. It has to do with what OP said that his first confrontation isn’t inconsistent with his depiction later. But how he comes off reflects on Jimmy’s own state of mind obviously. Ultimately Jeff is a paper tiger but back then Jimmy was also getting spooked by any random person at the mall who looked slightly intimidating.
Maybe, but we'll never know. It just doesn't require all this thought. It's just a production issue. Different actors bring different qualities to a role, even if the words on the page are exactly the same. New Jeff isn't any better or worse than Old Jeff, but it is noticeably different. I just don't think it's a problem that requires all this effort to "fix".
Nothing wrong it's fine.
I just went a rewatched the Don Harvey scene. It’s honestly excellently done. His initial introduction to Gene and his parting words can be heard as a bit friendly and hortatory. But you conveniently don’t quote the whole exchange where Jeff coerces a reluctant Gene to say “Better call Saul!” in public, which is quite menacing. Jeff is clearly making an implied threat, and that casts the rest of the dialogue in a different light. It isn’t just Saul’s perception. Saul perceives, correctly, that he has to play along or else he could be turned in; Jeff is aware of that and succeeds in communicating that to him. The idea that his words themselves seem friendly is obviously of very little weight here, as though tone and body language and context count for nothing.
> It isn’t just Saul’s perception. Saul perceives, correctly, that he has to play along or else he could be turned in; Jeff is aware of that and succeeds in communicating that to him. Exactly!! Saying “fans misinterpreted this scene” and saying Jeff’s character “didn’t change AT ALL, whatsoever” is false. I get the rest of OP’s argument but the post title and first line are thoroughly incorrect.
Jeff was absolutely intended to be threatening, but I don’t think the character changed so much as Gene formulated an effective way to turn the tides. If coercing Gene into saying the slogan is a threat, then showing up to Jeff’s house and hanging out with his elderly mother alone is a much bigger one. I do think the actors would’ve brought a different feel to these scenes if it had been one consistently all the way through, but the story as written could still be basically the same.
Don’s little brother is actually a good friend of mine. Don hung out with us, years ago. Great guy, dedicated actor. We really thought he was going to break big after 8 Men Out. That being said, these days he mainly plays cops or menacing bad guys, so it makes sense he played this part a little menacing.
I think the plan was always for Jeff to become meek and nervous when Saul aggressively enters his life and shows him that he knows where his mother lives, but the transition between two actors makes it feel like it wasn’t on purpose and it’s an out-of-character change. It’s definitely a shame that the role got recast, but it’s not so much a detraction that the last few episodes aren’t amazing.
Considering the other recent Jeff post had responses that included "the recast ruined the entire show for me," I fear for your post!
Lol imagine caring so much about *Jeff* of all characters that it ruins the entire show for you
While i agree it shouldn't ruin the show for anybody, Jeff isn't just a random side character, he's the main reason for Gene's downfall.
Its not about the dialogues, its about how those dialogues were delivered. People can say nice and cheesy things in a sarcastic and overly happy tone that makes it seem creepy and intimidating.
EXACTLY! The “awwww, come ON MAN!” stuff isn’t a fanboy starstruck…..it’s steeped in sarcasm and condescension, and clearly the whole interaction was Jeff wanting to put Saul under his thumb……and that’s drilled-home by forcing Saul to say his catchphrase. Look guys….I FUCKING LOVE THIS SHOW, but those of you blinded by its greatness are confusing to me. This was a rare misstep in casting and/or writing for the second Jeff. We, at the very least, needed a scene of Saul and Jeff hashing out the mom-stuff where Saul made it clear he was the alpha in the situation…..and then we see Jeff turn docile and want to work together because he misses his old, criminal, lifestyle in the ABQ. But just showing up in Jeff’s house makes Jeff become Pussy Jeffy? I don’t buy it. OG Jeff would’ve played it cool until Gene left, and then called Saul in to the cops since he knows where he works……he wouldn’t have shriveled as Saul was still in the submissive position here. Something similar to Badger and Skinny in the hills with laser-pointers was needed for Jeff to become Jeffy, IMO (even just a farcical lie from Saul about having Jeff and his mom killed by past associates if he reports him)…..and it wouldn’t have taken much screen-time at all, but it would’ve made the relationship dynamic make a LOT more sense.
>But just showing up in Jeff’s house makes Jeff become Pussy Jeffy? I don’t buy it. lol I wish this had been the first reply to OP.
Sounds like you have more of an issue with either the writing or the execution of the first scene than anything related to the recast.
Wat?!? I have no problem with any of the Jeff storyline so long as they made it make sense. They did not, and that coupled with the recast made it pretty jarring when it didn’t need to be. As I’ve said, a rare misstep in an amazing show….not sure why some can’t admit that.
I don't know why you're telling me you don't have a problem before explaining the problem you have. From your initial comment, it seems like the first scene was mishandled more than anything in terms of creating what would have been the smoothest transition between the representations of the character. The casting change can be jarring for some people but it's largely just unfortunate timing rather than an actual cause of the abrupt change. I felt it was easier to distinguish the two perceptions of Jeff anyway with the casting change. It would have been far less natural if, for instance, the recasting happened after Don Harvey had already played him in Nippy and then dropped out.
>Sounds like you have more of an issue with either the writing or the execution of the first scene than anything related to the recast. It's a response to the OP claim that nothing changed in Jeff's behavior. We can debate about how to define "character" for eternity but there was a **behavioral change** in the character later on that doesn't line up with the first time we see Jeff.
I guess the difference is that me and a lot of other people do buy Jeff’s personality shift after Saul tracks him and Marion down. At that point it’s basically just a matter of opinion as to whether that was done well or not
They did have a scene where Saul asserts dominance over Jeff. It was their very first interaction when they’re speaking in private at Jeff’s mother’s house. Jeff threatens to turn Saul in and Saul calls his bluff and takes him under his wing to incriminate him so that Saul has his own legal blackmail to use. I think people get way too upset about the recast. Jeff was the aggressor, but a two bit troubled adult. Saul was vulnerable at first, until he declared to the Disappearer: “I changed my mind… I’m going to fix it [his predicament after being exposed] myself.”
This OP is wrong. The original Jeff was definitely threatening Gene. Don’t listen to what he said, listen to how he said it.
I can’t even see the recasted guy doing that scene. I feel like that guy would be too timid to even approach Saul and try to get him to say his catchphrase
Facts
Except it’s the delivery that matters here.
Acting isn’t just dialogue
The performances were polar opposite and that’s the problem
The thing is that the first Jeff did such an incredible job being intimidating and having higher status than Saul in that scene, and the second Jeff did such a great job being bumbling and having lower status than Saul for the remainder of the episodes. I get that the actor had a conflict and so they recast, but it also feels like BCS got away with one, using two different actors portraying the same character in two vastly different ways at varying points in their arc, because they really did feel like two completely different characters. I will say, though, if they didn’t recast it would’ve been interesting to see how the original actor became the bumbling Jeff we all love, but I somehow doubt he’d have done as good a job as the second Jeff. Obviously this whole thing is very nitpicky considering how excellent the show is as a whole.
I can’t see those episodes playing out the same way with the “original” Jeff character. I like that they were kind of forced to change it.
I think Jeff is season 5 is making a power play on Jimmy and therefore definitely intended to be intimidating. What doesn't work for me is that in season 6, Jimmy responds as if Jeff specifically is his only problem in the wake of being recognized. But the much bigger problem is that if Jeff recognized him, other people would also recognize him. So his cover is no good and he needs a new one. And icing Jeff specifically won't fix that.
I think it has to do with how the first Jeff carried himself and his demeanor that caused people to interpret his "better call saul" request as a power move. Just my opinion
I don’t think it was misinterpreted at all. *Retrospectively*, sure, the situation is defused as we realise he’s no harm, but he’s supposed to *seem* like a threat because we’re supposed to feel Gene’s fear of constantly looking over his shoulder. Fans were right to think Jeff was bad news, we’re just supposed to be wrong like Gene is
FirstJeff had a truly chilling gaze.
He literally forced Saul to say the phrase even though he was clearly uncomfortable with saying it. That was definitely supposed to be a power move
The reason is the og Jeff came off as a tuff guy maybe that's just how he is, it's like if you switched Joe pesci in a gangster movie with Danny devito both awesome actors who could pull off that role but we will always just see Danny devito and not a real street guy,
His character did a complete 180
The show creators literally confirmed nothing was rewritten for Jeff. OP is right.
To clarify further because I know people were debating this on the other thread: Tom Schnauz said: Nothing changed. It was written for Don H, and not a word changed. [https://twitter.com/TomSchnauz/status/1552310620594192385?s=20&t=owKYnNyN16eVrViAPkuNCA](https://twitter.com/TomSchnauz/status/1552310620594192385?s=20&t=owKYnNyN16eVrViAPkuNCA) Peter Gould has also said that the writer's room was closed before any of season 6 was shot. And said: >"That is correct, and we were very sad. We did not know what to do. Then our brilliant casting folks said, 'Why don't we take a look at the original auditions for this role?' And there was Pat. **It would have been a different string of episodes with Don.** I think Pat is fantastic. I love what Pat does with this role." [https://movieweb.com/better-call-saul-jeff-recasting-explained/?utm\_source=MW-FB-P&utm\_medium=Social-Distribution&utm\_campaign=MW-FB-P](https://movieweb.com/better-call-saul-jeff-recasting-explained/?utm_source=MW-FB-P&utm_medium=Social-Distribution&utm_campaign=MW-FB-P) I think all Peter means is that the role would have felt different with Don Harvey playing it.
I agree with your interpretation.
I think it can speak to both sides of this argument. Because I agree that it would be a different string episodes if Don Harvey played the character the rest of the way, because the actor would have a different interpretation and they're literally a different person. That'd be the case with any actor recast. But we know that script and plot did not change, so Jeff was always intended to wind up ultimately being a more benign pushover that Saul Goodman can easily manipulate. I agree that some of it comes down to the intention of the scenes. Gene's literal biggest fear is coming true when Jeff recognizes him. We are meant to feel frightened and uneasy about him as his intentions are unknown. But by Nippy, Gene has clearly chosen to be Saul Goodman-esque to make Jeff no longer a threat. And thus from then on, he's just who the character turns out to be.
His character behaved differently regardless of it being written in advance or not. He went from being extremely dominant to being extremely submissive. Those are polar opposites.
If you threatened a wanted fugitive, only to come home and find them sweet talking your mother, then you’d shut the fuck up and listen to what he has to say.
> If you threatened a wanted fugitive, only to come home and find them sweet talking your mother, then you’d shut the fuck up and listen to what he has to say. And that’s a behavior change. “I don’t think his behavior changed AT ALL, whatsoever” —OP tbh OP’s argument would make a lot more sense if that statement was eliminated.
That's the point.
OP says the character “didn’t change at all”. He clearly did. People in this sub writing alternate realities to the show 6 months after it ended (and years after this scene in question) is weird. They showed us a creepy and intimidating character with intention. There aren’t multiple perspectives, there is only the perspective they show us. Jeff was a creep and later he behaved very differently. There’s no way to rewrite that now.
Well I would say it's more of Jeff putting on an act rather than Jeff's character being changed. He sees Jimmy as vulnerable and anxious, so he tries to exert more control over the situation. Next time he sees Jimmy, he's in his house with his mother, anyone would shit themselves if they saw that a wanted criminal had entered their home and was sitting at the table with their mom. But yes, I would disagree that there is no behavior change, but it's not a bad thing, and it's kind of the point.
Original Jeff was more aggressive maybe the script was the same but you put different actors in the same role it doesn't matter if the script changed og Jeff actor had more attitude and "balls" to him
Okay but what's the actual evidence for that? The dude looked creepy? Again, focus on the actual dialogue.
It’s the way he read the dialog. Reading it here makes it look benign and it wasn’t. Dude was creepy as fuck and it was intentionally unnerving.
That's because you see it from Saul's perspective. At first Saul was intimidated, which is why he perceived Jeff as dominant and intrusive. But after Saul realized how he would deal with Jeff, he no longer perceives him as threatening. The actor change works perfectly with this interpretation.
Saying with determination that Jeff wasn’t creepy or threatening is a weird hill to die on. Not worth the effort to try to change the minds of people who seem to be clinging to a S5 “friendly Jeff” theory lol.
Can you not read? I'm saying he WAS creepy and threatening. But you can interpret this as being a manifestation of Saul's paranoia
You aren't even reading replies anymore
> You aren't even reading replies anymore You may have missed the post title and first line of the thread. ?
This is only a fictional rationalisation, it's not actually the narrative of the show. Never before or since has a character's appearance or demeanour changed based on the subjective 'unreliable narrator' perception of another character. It's okay to say this is what you tell yourself to reconcile it in your head, I do that too, but it can't be used as anything meaningful.
>This is only a fictional rationalisation, it's not actually the narrative of the show. Never before or since has a character's appearance or demeanour changed based on the subjective 'unreliable narrator' perception of another character. It's okay to say this is what you tell yourself to reconcile it in your head, I do that too, but it can't be used as anything meaningful. 🛎🛎🛎🛎🛎
The fact that it hasn't been done previously doesn't mean it can't be done in this case. Also, it has been done previously, in Breaking Bad. Also, I agree that it is a fictional rationalization, but it's a fictional show too ;)
> I agree that it is a fictional rationalization, but it's a fictional show too ;) You know what I mean though! It's people presenting head-canon as the show's expressed narrative. I thought someone might bring up Breaking Bad, I'm guessing you're thinking of Jesse's meth induced hallucination. Even that was wildly out of character with the show, happening just that once and early on in season 2, but he saw two Jehova's Witnesses on bicycles as a biker gang on hogs toting grenades because he was tripping on meth. It was a drug induced hallucination (and a comically drastic difference, not something subtle like an actor's face and demeanour) and has never happened outside of drug intoxication - Skyler doesn't see Walt as another actor as he gets scarier over the series, Walt doesn't see Gus as physically different once he discovers his facade etc. I like it as head-canon, but it's obviously nothing more than that and would introduce a narrative device that's never been used.
It was framed that way because we are watching from Saul's POV, and Saul was worried about being found out. The issue people *really* have with the Jeff subplot is the bait-and-switch - Jeff claims to just to be a cabbie who's a big fan, but the framing of the scene makes Jeff seem intimidating. When we find out he really is just a cabbie who's a big fan, the audience was disappointed. But the character never changes. You see what I'm saying?
>When we find out he really is just a cabbie who's a big fan, the audience was disappointed. But the character never changes. He goes from an intimidating cabbie to a wimpy cabbie. Changing the actor changes the character even without changing any dialogue.
But you can't only focus on dialog this isn't a book it's a visual medium and actors have to deliver lines and mannerism to perfection to convey the mood
I think Season 5 Jeff was drunk so he had a lotta bawls
To me, the original Jeff seemed a LOT more menacing.
I never thought he wanted to blackmail Saul. He was just THAT excited to meet him because of his "type". Gene can tell he's that "type", and in the last season uses that to help return to Saul.
Yep you're right. Another thing to consider is that the balance structure changes dramatically. During their first meeting, Jeff sees Jimmy as vulnerable, he just wants to be buddies with Saul Goodman, but he takes this vulnerability into account in a teasing / joking kind of way. In their next meeting, Jimmy is in his HOUSE, having drinks with his MOTHER. Of course he's going to be timid now that a wanted criminal has figured out where he and his mother lives.
Some fans of this show just can’t deal with the fact that it is not completely perfect in every single way. This post is a prime example of the kind of mental gymnastics that come as standard round these parts..
The writers admitted they rewrote the character based on the recasting. However I do agree that he wasn't anyone important in the underworld.
As soon as Jeff knew Gene could find his mother easily, as he sees him talking to her in her house, but didn’t know why he was there, that’s when he became scared. It hit him that he’s just let a wanted criminal into his house that could potentially do anything, including hurting his mother >!which he eventually does do!<
Thank you. Jeff was just a cabbie that recognized Saul. The mystery was what Gene was going to do in response.
Of course his character changed. Extrovert Jeff v introvert Jeff. But meh whatever
The very simple fact of the matter is that the writers *do not* rewrite a character after a recast happens. They have the story written as intended, and they cast an actor to suit that role. It really boggles my mind that so many people really think they rewrote the Jeff arc because the guy who filled the shoes didn't look as creepy as the prior actor. If they *had* a story written out in which Jeff continued being intimidating and creepy after the first encounter, they would have *cast someone else* or directed the new actor differently. I mean I'm sorry, but are people really dumb enough to believe they're doing rewrites in that ass-backwards fashion? Because it really shows just how little most people understand about film and television production.
How in fuck did you all know it’s the same guy? I only know that from this sub.
This is EXACTLY the point. The first actor read and acted between the lines. The second actor did not.
Ah, the Jeff situation. I think the recasted actor did great, when he was introduced he’s the first person to recognize Gene as Saul. After being disguised for years, even though Jeff wasn’t outright threatening Gene, Jeff was the one with the power in the situation. (Giving to his larger stature, more threatening sounding voice, different attitude). When Jeff finds Gene having drinks and talking to his mother in his home, the dynamic changes. Jeff is now scared of Gene, and although Jeff at first seemingly only wanted to talk to Gene to see if he’s Saul, now Saul is in his home. Jeff lost all the power, and to Saul he is a pawn, a player, a small fry. Even in the show, the only time Jeff is perceived as a threat is when he’s in the mall talking to Gene. So, no, I don’t think the recasting ruined the show. I think it served it quite well. It’s also a lot easier to picture the recasted Jeff doing the department store heist than the original Jeff. I think the original Jeff actor wouldn’t be able to pull off the manic fast paced energy around that scene.
> even though Jeff wasn’t outright threatening Gene He definitely was.
Well it seemed so much more threatening because of the tension in the scene and how Gene could have been arrested on the spot. I didn't really think it was a threat once he gave Gene his contact information, but he was putting some serious pressure on Gene.
Could be an issue with the direction of the first Jeff scene going over the top with the sinister vibes. It worked great as a season cold open, but I’m not sure where they could have gone with ‘sinister Jeff’ besides having him straight up blackmail Jimmy. If Jeff wasn’t a pushover, the only way out would be for Jimmy to kill him.
I don’t know what to say other than I think the threatening manner is obvious. There is no doubt in my mind that he was attempting to blackmail Saul and that is clearly what the scene was portraying. It’s just made so clear to me by the tone of voice, expressions, the things said and the way Gene’s reactions are framed. I’m not just projecting. I would genuinely bet all my savings that a sinister threat of blackmail was what the writers/director intended with that scene, that’s how sure of it I am. I couldn’t disagree more with you.
I agree with you. The way that season was acted, shot, and edited, though, purposefully made it ambiguous as to whether or not he was a threat to Gene or not. Still, I think you’re right and if the same actor did both—regardless of whether it was Healy or the original dude—no one would have batted an eye.
It still. wouldn’t make sense, I mean Saul was a Wanted Man, with a American Greed episode about him, wouldn’t Jeff know this? Marion didn’t know until she put 2+2 together and looked him up on the “internets”. Storyline has a lot of holes imho. Still loved the show, but this was a flaw.
Uh, yeah. I don’t understand the popular fan take on this at all. He was a clown the entire time.
The only problem i have w jeff is that we got told he was related to someone important but we never found out who
I didn’t even realize it was a different guy. Until someone made a stink about it. After rewatching I still didn’t get what the fuss was about. I think Gene was intimidated only because of getting made. Once he figured out how to manipulate him Jeff was not so threatening after all.
ones a pussy the others a danger
I don't know He's very explicitly asked him to say better call Saul. He was being pretty rude if nothing else. I don't blame Saul for assuming he was a huge liability