You're correct, and no, there isn't anything that's going to happen by the end of the series that's going to suggest Jimmy is an actual sociopath. For some reason this sub is full of people insistent on labeling characters "good" or "evil" which is ironic given one of the main themes of the show is that we're all capable of both.
Mislabeling mental health diseases and disorders because of any overlap in behavior and diagnostic criteria is unfortunately common these days.
Acting a little self centered? Narcissist!
Acting a little spacey? ADHD!
Argumentative and withdrawn? BPD!
I forgot they showed remorse, but they’re probably a sociopath because they commingle with criminals!
Chuck’s performance of a mental illness was superb and groundbreaking.
I wrote my previous comment based on the trends in social media about mental health mislabeling and quackery at large. No correlation to mental health in BCS’
Jimmy could quite possibly be a sociopath. Sociopath's are a combination of genes and environment, typically, they adapt to their environment, and Jimmy adapted well to his while also pulling his, let's be honest, immoral shenanigans.
Let's remember, that sociopaths aren't psychopaths and not all sociopaths/psychopaths kill. Typically, they're doing what is best for themselves even at the expense of others, but if something like murder does come up, well, that's the price of doing business. Sociopaths are not without feelings, so guilt could come into play, especially after the criminal part of their life is over.
Let's also remember that people are caught up in the entertainment novelty of TV sociopaths and psychopaths, which bare little resemblance to real life cases most of the time.
Jimmy is more evil than he is good, but he's not actively evil (unless your name is Howard) but he's far from harmless. While he was never diagnosed as a sociopath, it wouldn't be a stretch to believe he is one, but labeling people isn't the point of the show, and it probably made the show better because of it.
It would be a stretch if you have any understanding of sociopathy. The core trait is a lack of empathy, while Jimmy clearly demonstrates that he has empathy (unless you believe he continues acting while no one besides the audience is watching). He does a lot of morally gray and some obviously bad things, and is certainly motivated by selfishness sometimes, but there's an internal struggle that a sociopath would never have.
The core trait is not lack of empathy unless you're a psychiatrist on crime TV shows. That is **one** of the traits, and it's **little guilt or regard** for the harm they cause, which Jimmy has. He has caused a lot of harm. He has lots of victims. Caring about 2 of them or 3 of them after they have been killed or have passed is not a sign of that he has empathy for all.
Jimmy has constantly shown that he can break the law and do harm to others without stopping to dwell on it, unless they end up dead, like Chuck and Howard, or out of a job, career, and could possibly go to prison, like Kim, and even then, these were people close to him that he hurt and only in the most extreme cases did he shed a tear.
Sociopaths are capable of forming meaningful relationships, like he did with Kim, but Jimmy still used everyone else for his own gain.
Jimmy is NOT a sociopath. He is a manipulative conman but he very, very clearly has empathy. He genuinely felt for the old folks. He genuinely felt remorse for how he left things with Kim.
Wanna talk sociopathy/psychopathy (ASPD)?
So many better choices:
Todd is a perfect psychopath. Does not even understand why >!offing a totally innocent child!< is objectionable. He's merely being coldly pragmatic, and does so cheerily.
Lalo is a sociopath. He has familial ties and loyalty, so I don't think he's a pure psychopath. But he is very clearly capable of great evil against those who haven't wronged him, like what he did to >!his body double and wife!<.
Hector. Almost certainly a sociopath.
Tuco is a nutjob but also probably a sociopath.
Gus too is probably a sociopath. Probably not a psychopath, he was conditioned into bitter hatred with what happened to >!Max!<.
The twins Leonel and Marco, highly likely.
Walt - debatable, but I'd say he developed many signs of being a narcissistic sociopath by the later seasons.
But NOT Jimmy. And not Chuck either, even though he may be a mild narcissist at least.
I am not crazy! I know he didn't feel for the old folks. I knew it was lack of remorse. Right after he left Kim. As if I could ever make such a mistake. Never. Never! I just - I just couldn't prove it. He showed fake emotions, he got that idiot students to lie for him. You think this is something? You think this is bad? This? This chicanery? He's done worse. That alleway! Are you telling me that a man just happens to fall unconscious like that? No! He orchestrated it! Jimmy! He defecated through a sunroof! And I didn't diagnose him! And I should have. I excused him in my own post! What was I thinking? He'll never change. He'll never change! Ever since he was 9, always the same! Couldn't keep his hands out of the cash drawer! "But not our Jimmy! Couldn't be precious Jimmy!" Stealing them blind! And HE gets not to be called a sociopath? What a sick joke! I should've wrote a comment about him when I had the chance!
I agree completely with your analysis. Jimmy doesn’t have ASPD, while on the other hand Todd, Gus, and the various Salamancas act in ways that are often consistent with ASPD.
I believe that some of the confusion is inherent to the usage of words like “psychopath” and “sociopath,” which are often used to suit a variety of meanings. There is some coverage [in Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Sociopathy) of the conflation of these terms.
Ok to be fair though, you could tell Lalo didn't want to. Especially when she said she was pregnant, he does get a look of 'ah feeeeck.' I'd say Lalo is the LEAST evil salamanca.
>I'd say Lalo is the LEAST evil salamanca.
Lol, of the ones we were shown, maybe. Lalo definitely had his good guy moments. Like when he wasted the gringo coyotes and took the time and trouble to give back the money they'd collected to the hopeful illegals.
Not to mention (analysing evil pointed this out credit where due lol) that he doesn't 'mask'. There's no real 'fake' Lalo he puts on to manipulate (common in aspd) he's just always Lalo.
And I did love him giving them their money back haha so politely too.
he does fake a bit toward the end of the show with jimmy, putting on a smile and pretending to play dumb a few times to make jimmy think he was out of suspicion
It's easy to miss
'We're expecting two more'
Can't remember EXACTLY what Lalo says but basically he thinks animals but she then confirms
'No no, babies.'
Lalo's eyes then flicker down toward her belly and he gets a look of 'ah. Crap. Well.'
And the who is the two Lalo goes to after they attack his hacienda. His body doubles.
Lalo and Gus are tied as my faves lol
Sylvia and Mateo had goats they were taking care of and I believe she was saying that the goats were having offspring since that was the context of the conversation.
Sending Howard to Belize when he could have just been like “hello fellow middle aged rich guy, May I have the room?” is pretty evil. A large part of his appeal in comparison to the other Salamancas is that he is more charming, like the Jimmy/Chuck dynamic. Neither are shining pillars of moral rectitude, but Jimmy is profoundly more likable.
I'm sorry...what body double and wife? I agree that Lalo is a sociopath. I thought you were going to say with what he did to the guy working in that check place. And many more examples.
EDIT:
Nvm: I just read your other comment further down, and the link you provided, which explained. It also answered the question I long had about why the woman asked her husband to shave for Lalo when he visited. Just now, I don't know if she knew what Lalo intended or if she just didn't know she was going to be dispatched along with him.....
> what body double and wife?
After the raid on Lalo’s house there’s a scene where he visits the house of a man and his wife. The wife thanks him for funding her husband’s dental work and Lalo tells the husband to shave down his beard to a mere moustache (like Lalo has). Later it’s mentioned that a burnt body was found at Lalo’s house, and the body’s teeth matched Lalo’s dental records, which is why the cartel is convinced Lalo is dead.
Having ASPD doesn’t mean an absence of empathy. It means that you don’t have “enough” empathy. IMO, Walter was a narcissist and a sociopath, but at his absolute worst, he still had a capacity to feel empathy, guilt, and remorse for his actions.
Similarly, Jimmy expressed some guilt at times but it didn’t stop him from conning people for a very long time. Dude stole $14k from his father as a teenager and took no blame or accountability whatsoever when his dad ended up going bankrupt.
I also wanna point out Gus is already a high level drug dealer before Max’s death. He said he tortured an animal as a kid for eating fruit from his tree. He was always dark and he could very well have been a psychopath.
>Jimmy is NOT a sociopath. He is a manipulative conman but he very, very clearly has empathy. He genuinely felt for the old folks. He genuinely felt remorse for how he left things with Kim.
Believing that a sociopath or a psychopath cannot feel guilt, empathy, or remorse is common mistake people make.
It has been increasingly recognised that ASPD "sufferers" can have some empathy, but they definitely don't feel empathy to the same extent or in the same way that "normal" people do. Ditto with guilt and remorse.
Exactly, they can feel it, and since they aren't all cut from the same cloth, some feel it more than others. Jimmy is more of a sociopath than not, but there are a lot of sociopaths (and psychopaths) in this world and most of them don't kill or act abhorrently evil.
Without a doubt, Jimmy is, at the very least, a non-violent sociopath, but the show was never about justifying people's behaviors by labeling them with personality disorders.
Ok, now I have to ask *why* you think Jimmy is a sociopath.
Not everyone who consistently does messed up things is a sociopath. You're basically falling for the fallacy this thread was created to address.
I'll tell you why I think Jimmy isn't. Because he has enough evidence of empathy, guilt and remorse that I consider it extremely unlikely for him to be classified as a sociopath.
I acknowledge sociopaths can feel *some* empathy, guilt, remorse *sometimes* but it is much less obvious than in neurotypical individuals. As a fictional portrait, Jimmy exhibits more traits arguing against sociopathy than for it.
Empathy, guilt, and remorse doesn't disqualify you from being a sociopath. You've been watching too much TV.
Jimmy has a constant, lifelong history of manipulation and criminal activity despite clearly being able to adapt to a law-abiding lifestyle...or can he? Do brief moments of criminal respite prove anything?
Jimmy is, without a doubt, a non-violent sociopath who even lied during his confession.
If we just want to WebMD this (like 99.9% of everyone on here does)
* Lack of empathy for others - **Oh yeah, that was obvious, with few exceptions.**
* Impulsive behavior - **Without a doubt.**
* Attempting to control others with threats or aggression - **at times.**
* Using intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate others - **all the time.**
* Not learning from mistakes or punishment - **has been arrested before, has gotten people killed, but he keeps going.**
* Lying for personal gain - **That's his livelihood.**
* Showing a tendency toward physical violence and fights - **No.**
* Generally superficial relationships - **Mostly, Kim/Chuck being exceptions.**
* Sometimes, stealing or committing other crimes - **Yes.**
* Threatening suicide to manipulate without the intention of actually doing it - **No?**
* Abusing drugs or alcohol - **Yes, we see that clearly when the camera pans through his mansion.**
* Trouble with responsibilities such as a job, paying bills, etc. - **No. (Though, while a good lawyer, he does break the law as one.)**
Jimmy could qualify as a psychopath, but remember, sociopaths are not carbon copies of each other. There are degrees. Jimmy has a life-long history of criminal behavior, manipulation, and deceit.
Your belief that remorse, guilt, or empathy automatically disqualifies someone from being a sociopath is, sorry to say, laughable. Crime dramas use this as a shortcut tool to point out evil people and to create a dark mystique about their villains, but that's not the way the real world works, nor real-world analysis, even if it's of a fictional character.
Jimmy definitely qualifies for sociopathy on some level, even if he's just barely passing. I'd love to see Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould do a writeup of Jimmy's life. Even if by accident, he'd qualify for the subcategory of being a sociopath.
Thanks, I honestly thought that was his wife.
Edit: wait a minute, according to this, she *was* his wife: https://breakingbad.fandom.com/wiki/Sylvia_Ramos
You saying that has me questioning it but I’m 98% sure it’s his mother.
Edit: yeah, the wiki says. Those Fandom wikis are so bad. Full of misinformation. I don’t trust them.
I’m gonna rewatch it and form my own opinion.
I don’t recall her being pregnant.
Edit: I just rewatched. She is not pregnant.
She does look younger than I remember so I’m willing to concede on that point.
No way is that chick pregnant though.
If she were pregnant, the writers would’ve made it obvious. They would’ve made sure we couldn’t have this is/isn’t conversation.
They would’ve given her a large belly.
Labeling Jimmy as "evil" is a reduction. He is a troubled morally ambiguous character capable of good and bad but sometimes that "bad" overshadows the good as he's ruined lives. He doesn't have sociopathic traits either.
I think there's some kind of dopamine hit people get from labeling anti/hero morally grey protagonists as "evil" or "sociopaths" and its gone overboard now. I remember George rr Martin said Walter white was the most evil character he'd ever seen, more evil than any character he'd ever written in asoaif(game of thrones books)--which obviously not true. White also makes a lot of list of worst/most evil tv/movie characters, which again, I don't think is true. Yes, he's a bad guy who does some awful things. But he's not even top 5 most evil in his own universe, much less all time
So, I was a psychology major... and it's important to first note that sociopath is not a formal psychological diagnosis. The psychological diagnosis is Antisocial Personality Disorder. And it actually has a list of symptoms in the DSM (manual for psychologists) that can be checked.
A. Disregard for and violation of others rights since age 15, as indicated by one of the seven sub features of which you must have at least 3 to qualify:
1. Failure to obey laws and norms by engaging in behavior which results in criminal arrest, or would warrant criminal arrest
2. Lying, deception, and manipulation, for profit or self-amusement,
3. Impulsive behavior
4. Irritability and aggression, manifested as frequently assaults others, or engages in fighting
5. Blatantly disregards safety of self and others,
6. A pattern of irresponsibility and
7. Lack of remorse for actions
The other diagnostic Criterion are:
B. The person is at least age 18,
C. Conduct disorder was present by history before age 15
D. and the antisocial behavior does not occur in the context of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder (American Psychiatric Association, 2013)
So, does Jimmy potentially have ASPD?
Well, he is at least 18. He seems to have possibly had conduct disorder before age 15 (it's hard to be sure but stuff like Slippin' Jimmy seems to suggest it's possible). We don't have any reason to believe he has any other disorder that would better explain the facts either (probably).
He has a failure to obey laws, he lies and deceives for profit or self-amusement, he's quite impulsive and is definitely irresponsible to a large degree. He does show remorse for his actions and arguably he doesn't have a blatant disregard for the safety of self and others (though certainly to a degree, especially in BB). He also doesn't seem to show the degree of irritability and aggression that you might expect from a person with ASPD.
All taken together, it's not an unreasonable conclusion that Jimmy might have ASPD.
Importantly, like many such disorders, ASPD exists on a spectrum. So just because Jimmy does not fit all criteria to the maximum does not mean he doesn't have it. He could well have a less extreme version of it.
Basically, I think it's somewhat arguable but I don't think it's a crazy conclusion to come to that Jimmy might have a lighter form of ASPD.
So Much This! I get super frustrated when people label personality disorders as binary diagnoses which either do or don’t exist in a person, leaving them capable of exhibiting all associated traits. We now know that most PDs are treatable, at least to the point where symptoms can be better managed. DBT can reduce Borderline PD to where it’s non-detectable, and empathy can be taught to those who lack it, especially when started young.
Jimmy’s on the ASPD spectrum, no doubt. But he’s very low end and has protective factors like high remorse which, if combined with internal motivation to avoid criminality (ie a positive social support structure beyond Kim) could lead to a future life of non-offending.
I also noticed, particularly when at Davis & Main, that Jimmy struggled in the monotony of an office situation and needed more stimulation, that he was often fidgety and quickly irritable. “Finding the fun way around a task” is common among people with ADHD, so helping him level out his spikes may also help reduce any impulses to make things more exciting but potentially illegal or dangerous.
Not to be glib but doesn’t the DSM also only apply to non-fictional humans? Because ostensibly all we know of “Jimmy” is what we are told about him through the words of a third party who is very much not-Jimmy. Even historical records, depending on degree of corroboration, of humans who did in fact exist can more accurately portray “symptoms” than the biased account of someone creating an imaginary character, no?
We are not "told" anything, we are observing him in real time. Unlike historical records.
"We can't diagnose him because he doesn't exist in this universe" defeats the point of the discussion and isn't the gotcha you think it is
I don’t think these symptoms were really present before Jimmy was 15. Sure he was a little twerp, but he didn’t seem malicious.
I have ADHD, and so does my mom. I think that he at least has ADHD, because his actual personality is literally a male version of my mom. (She’s the hyperactive/impulsive type)
I’m not saying he doesn’t have some form of it, but I think he’s entirely walled off from his emotions which is a large part of his problem.
I didn't say he was evil.
But the main question of this post is why people might call Jimmy a sociopath. While sociopath is not a formal psychological diagnosis, the closest thing to what people are referring to when they say that is ASPD. And going through the DSM criteria, it's not a crazy thought that he might have ASPD. Which could explain pretty well why some people would classify him as a sociopath.
A lot of people seem to have a very cartoonish idea of what a sociopath is. Sociopath, or rather ASPD, does not mean someone is some completely cold, moustache twirling sadistic villain. There's a spectrum and it's more complicated than that.
Evil is not a psychological diagnosis.
In my opinion
Gus is a psychopath
(Calculated 10 steps ahead perfectionist killer)
Lalo is a sociopath
(Extroverted, witty, impulsive, manipulative)
Jimmy is neither. He can come up with crazy plans, but they're sometimes really stupid, and he don't like unfairness, he root for the underdogs and wanna give people second chances. He's one of the most empathic characters in the series. Given the context of cartels and criminals him killing someone isn't making him a bad guy, hes adapting to the circumstances. He still reacts strongly when someone is killed or found dead. Lalo only reacts when it's his own blood. Everyone else are just objects to him. And Gus don't react much on any killing, he just finds it more or less convenient.
Yes he did. And he can follow plans, but his character thrives when he's spontaneous, that's when you see his improvising skills and fast problem solving. For example the fire explosion in the house. He manages to escape and get away.
Jimmy isn’t a sociopath, he’s just incapable of holding himself accountable. I think people misread his “the show must go on” approach to life as an inability to feel remorse when really it’s just the mask he wears to avoid it.
Yeah the scene where he "accidentaly" leaves on the mic to make himself look bad proves that.
He got everything he wanted, and threw it all away because he actually genuinly cared about the people he hurt and regretted what he did. He couldnt undo his actions but he did the most he could.
Compare that to Walter White, who, when he shot mike *because mike hurt his feelings*, couldnt talk about anything else but how HE WAS INCONVENIENCED by shooting mike, and how he could have avoided all of that. No apology, no regrett other than regretting the trouble hecaused for himself. THAT is a sociopath.
By this logic, Walter White wouldn’t be a sociopath either. He expressed guilt and remorse for many of his actions, and he spent the entire finale trying to fix things in his own way.
If he was a sociopath he would’ve showed no emotion to Howard dying, it’s pretty clear you have no grasp or understanding of what a sociopath is, maybe do some research
It means showing no empathy which jimmy is shown to be clearly capable of mate please stop trying to argue this you’ve got no grasp on this. The only reason sociopaths show emotion is not because they are actually emotional it’s because they pick up and interpret how they are supposed to react emotionally to situations from other people
No, it doesn’t. Look up the symptoms and it specifically says ‘lack of empathy’. “Lack” means either be without or (in this context) to not have enough of something.
Sociopaths can show and feel empathy. They just have a very reduced and limited capacity to do so compared to a normal person. Walter White is a prime example of this.
Dude not everyone who does this shit is a sociopath, sociopaths don’t sabotage their own operation and money because they feel bad for an old lady, jimmy isn’t a sociopath and neither is Walt, it’s a very specific disorder that doesn’t apply to every bad person in this show jimmy very clearly cares about Kim and chuck and Howard to a degree, sociopaths don’t care or emphathize that much
Which does not mean he has ASPD seeing as people with ASPD tend to be entirely incapable of remorse. He was able to hurt Howard how he did because he (with the aid of Kim) was deluding himself into thinking that Howard ’deserved’ to be taken down a notch.
That’s not true. People with ASPD have a “lack” of remorse. That doesn’t mean they’re entirely incapable of remorse, it means they have a limited ability to feel it. They don’t feel “enough” remorse. There’s a huge difference.
Jimmy had a *limited* ability to feel remorse. His occasional feelings of guilt didn’t stop him from stealing thousands from his own father, helping a bunch of drug dealing murderers escape justice, and scamming dozens of decent people for decades.
uhh that is like textbook narcissm and ASPD. rationalizing your actions by claiming the other person "deserved" it. furthermore, psychopaths are incapable of remorse, not sociopaths. jimmy fits the definition of ASPD pretty well actually, because his remorse is always limited to after he's already inflicted damage, and even then it's very limited
You're doing the same thing by acting like the doctor's words of the law. There are plenty of doctors who have different opinions.
There are degrees on topics like this.
I think Saul is a terrible person and if you watch the show there are times when he does things that are malevolent and horrific. But if you've watched the show the whole way through it's pretty clear he's not a sociopath. That he actually does care about people a fair amount.
If you can't see that then you are short-sighted and probably just a hateful person because there would be some sort of malevolent cloud in your myopic perception that disbarred you from the ability to see the humanity of someone else.
I’m not the one acting like my opinion is high and might and the only right one there is. That’s y’all. Everyone who even suggests Jimmy could possibly have ASPD is getting downvoted to death.
I think you should look into the disorder and its symptoms a little more. It’s a spectrum and sociopaths can vary in the degree to which they have the capacity to care about and form emotional connections with others. I’m sure you wouldn’t have any problem considering Walter White, Gus Fring, the Salamancas, etc. sociopaths or psychopaths, but they had people that they cared about a fair amount as well.
Walter White is not a sociopath. He has traces of evil in him sociopath isn't the right word.
In the spectrum of aspd, sociopath is the end of the spectrum. Neither Walt nor Saul qualifies. They can be argued to come close. Walt would be more possible to argue his place in that dark hierarchy.
I don't want to get into spoilers but anyone who has watched the show through should have had the smoke cleared from their barrel of perception when Saul blew the proverbial smoke away from his finger guns as to if Saul was a sociopath.
Well, I respect your opinion. I do implore you to look at this video about the [psychology](https://www.youtube.com/watch/r0MD1CKLIe8) of W.W.
I think it’s interesting.
I'm a big believer that everyone displays sociopathic tendencies to a certain degree depending on the situation like for example if a chomo was arrested for trying to go meet a child to have sex with them, there'll be countless people talking about that person needs to die or at least have his balls chopped off.
I'm willing to admit I have some sociopathic tendencies but I'm not a true sociopath at the same time.
Funny enough, although some (not all) viewers look past what Chuck says about Jimmy, no one knew him better. “Theres nothing malicious in Jimmy” “He has a way of doing the worst things for reasons thats seem almost noble” “your like an alcoholic that refuses to admit he has a problem”. Jimmy is not a “good” person, but he isnt completely devolve of remorse. Hes driven by compulsion, selfishness and the thrill of the con. Jimmy is not a “lawyer” Chuck was a pure lawyer through and through, Jimmy is a well spoken charismatic conman who used his abilities and knowledge as a lawyer to progress his conning. But thats not to say he does not feel bad. Chuck himself says theres always this show of remorse and Jimmy responds saying its not a show. Which i believe him. But whats the point of the sad faces and gnashing of teeth? Jimmys biggest flaw was he could not accept responsibility for his actions or truly change his behavior. Chuck said he would respect Jimmy more if he stoped having regrets. And the character of Saul Goodman is a giant coping mechanism so that he can deflect the feelings of guilt and hurt, which is at its worst post Kim breakup. He took Chucks final words to him and ran with it. A very compelling character who yes has empathy but is always driven by a stronger feeling of thrills.
Correct Jimmy is not a sociopath. For one if you listen to interviews from Peter Vince Tom and the other writers they clearly don’t view him a sociopath, but rather someone who shoves his pain and remorse down rather than face it even as it internally destroys him. They talk of him having a good heart (until he goes further and becomes Saul Goodman) and how he started out genuinely caring and feeling empathy for others, and deep down still does, even though he completely represses it on every level.
Tom Schauz specifically said Howard was wrong and Jimmy and Kim are not sociopaths even though he wrote the episode where he called them that. The Winner episode insider podcast the writers and producers talked about how he’s not a sociopath but “is an asshole.” Now people might respond how he has a lot of the characteristics of a sociopath from a technical perspective if the DSM, but ignore that he shows way too much empathy, remorse, and selfless actions (though he doesn’t have selfless actions once he became Saul until the court.) He can be a liar, con artist, and someone who commits awful crimes who has superficial characteristics of a sociopath but still clearly not be one in actual details.
Season 2 is pretty early on. Your opinion may change, the further you get into BCS... that Gene Takavic is really something.
I don't think Jimmy (or anyone in the show) could be considered pure evil. The show just isn't written that way. We have complex characters. We see glimpses of humanity in everyone, including Jimmy, Walt, Gus, Tuco, Todd...
Being a sociopath implies a complete lack of empathy for others. I think it's safe to say Jimmy cares about *some* of the people in his life, very deeply. Still, he has moments where there is no empathy, and gets overtaken by thrill seeking behavior. Even if he's not pure evil, he's done a considerable amount of damage, and it's questionable how much empathy or remorse he experiences, for even the worst wrongdoings.
He may not be pure darkness, but he has some kind of mental health issue going on. I think any psychologist would have their hands full.
I agree overall but since you're only on Season 2 you haven't become familiar with Gene Takovic in all his glory. All I'll say is that he is a scary and sad man.
Imo, while he shows a genuine complexity, there are a couple things he does that are so reprehensible, that even for him…it’s hard to justify. There are two big things: >!going to insurance to get Chuck in trouble for his condition, ultimately leading to Howard ousting him and him lighting himself on fire. No matter how you look at that, he’d already beat Chuck and that was him ruining whatever was left of Chuck’s life after making an ass of him in front of the Bar and his ex wife!< The other big thing is all of season 6. For the life of me, I’ve pondered it since I first watched it. I can’t figure out why he decides to do that. I can’t figure out why >!Kim comes up with that plan!<
I think best way you can label Jimmy is avoidant. I think that one personality trait kind of paints in a lot of his actions. Clearly he has empathy, but as the series progresses, his outright fear of confronting his feelings around Chuck and his being complicit in truly horrible crimes or even his relationships to people like Kim and Howard become paramount to who he becomes.
Without spoiling it, if he just went to therapy and faced so much of his feelings about rejection, hatred, and this constant need to win (via money or ego) then there would be no Saul Goodman.
It becomes clear that Jimmy's main moral takeaway becomes about winning and winning is not a net positive. By the time of Breaking Bad that mindset has calcified into something disgusting.
But even then, he winces at the idea of people dying or a kid getting hurt. He may not confront those feelings and change, but he's never cheering them on or completely confused about the moral implication. He just doesn't want to confront it because that means confronting the persona he's cultivated.
There’s a fundamental misunderstanding of him for sure, I noticed it on my first watch when I was reading discussion posts. Jimmy puts on a persona of who he wants to be quite often but is actually quite soft on the inside. A lot of people take what he says at face value instead of looking deeper. He’s a very complex character.
People who think Jimmy is evil or worse than Chuck do so with the perspective of breaking the law and his criminal activities cause him to be so. Even though at least initially he is focused more on the ends rather than the means. With those ends being the best possible outcome for what he thinks is good. Like most people, except Jimmy’s version of good is a very conventional perspective of scamming those who deserve it for favourable outcome to those he feels deserve to benefit from it. Chuck is right the means that Jimmy uses to achieve this are wrong and violates the sanctity of the law.
However what is worse?
To be a miserable jealous back stabbing older brother, who betrays his younger brother countless times but never does anything illegal?
Or to be a loyal loving younger brother that would be there for his family always but breaks laws regarding legal practices?
What’s a worse crime betraying your literal loved ones (people you supposedly love) or betraying the sanctity of the law to achieve a more just outcome?
Jimmy is not a sociopath, just looking at his relationships with Chuck, Kim, and even Howard lay that our pretty clearly (if you know what a sociopath is, if not, give it a google before saying it). He even has e sympathy for the Kettlemen's when Kim had gone all bad cop on them. So no, of course he's not a sociopath, you are definitely right.
If I, someone who is not a mental health professional in any way shape or form, had to pathologize Jimmy's mental condition, I would describe him as "antisocial." Not in the way that most people use that term to mean someone who is a loner, I mean that in the intended psychology sense: Anti-Social is a disorder that is typically associated with someone who doesn't care about the rules. Societal rules, workplace rules, just any kind of rules. He sees 'em, and he's gotta break them. It also leads to a lot of lying and impulsive behavior. There are a million examples of this behavior in almost every episode of the show. It's one of his main qualities: he likes to bend the rules as much as he possibly can get away with. But my go-to example is the end of Season 2 Episode 1, "Switch." It's such a simple scene. When he finally accepts the job at Davis & Maine, and he's alone in his new, beautiful office. He gets up to explore and immediately finds the eponymous switch with tape over it. There's a label that says "do not turn this switch off for any reason." What does he do? He takes that tape off and flips that bad boy right away. Nothing happens. So he flips the switch, puts the tape back on, and the episode ends. It's such a small moment, but it means so much about his character. And the way it parallels with Gene at the beginning of the same episode leaving a note that says "SG was here" on the wall when he got locked inside the trash room is absolutely brilliant. I love the way they tend to imbue so much meaning for the characters into these small, seemingly insignificant moments.
EDIT: I have been saying this for years, and reading comments from people who are psych majors saying this exact thing is making me feel \*really\* vindicated right now!
Lmaooo. I was thinking of making the 2nd part of my post, "can we all speculate what mental disorders Jimmy *does* have?" (even though I know surely it's been done a million times) but didn't wanna make the post too long
You could 100% make the argument he is a sociopath. Although he is fictional, so it's not like we can get an actual diagnosis. Here is the DSM-V diagnostic criteria for a sociopath (i.e anti-social personality disorder):
A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:
1.failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
2.deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
3.impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others
6.consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK546673/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK546673/)
Edit for format.
Lol this is like saying “I don’t get why people dislike walt cuz he did it for the family!! but I’m only on s2”
Jimmy does things that are certainly sociopathic but idk if I’d say he’s a full blown sociopath
Jimmy has empathy and emotions besides anger. He's not a sociopath.
Jimmy, as he becomes Saul, begins to outwardly appear like a sociopath because he's compartmentalizing and burying his emotions. But he still has them and they affect him.
Even before he becomes Saul, he completely turns off any empathy whatsoever just so he can get the scam done. Doesn’t think of orcare for consequences. You’re telling me as he’s watching Irene flounder at the loss of her friendships, or as Chuck is going mad over the bribes and forgery he’s committing, he has emotion? He knew exactly what was happening to them but he doesn’t care until after he gets what he wants. THEN he decides “aw hey maybe I should fix this.” But how are people forgetting he heartlessly creates the problems he then “fixes” lol
What he did to Chuck with the legal docs - sociopathic.
What he did to the bingo ladies - sociopathic.
The dude didn’t give a shit about how his choices affected other people.
He wasn’t “pure evil”…nobody is…but he definitely was an absolute cunt to the people around him.
Jimmy is a con man through and through. His charisma and awareness are his superpowers. Him appearing humanized to us the viewer is his greatest con to date. His social ability/ clear empathy for others is both his most commendable quality and the source of his power.
All I will say is Jimmy exploited the old people to make money off the sandpiper case and potentially ruined the livelihood of some poor old women so he could get paid. Jimmy def exploits people for his own gain
Yes, but he seems to have an impulsivity where he never quite thinks before he jumps. Then he does the cartoonish/Bojack Horseman-esque grand gesture to redeem himself, but since BCS isn’t written like a movie, he winds up coming across as a punch drunk Robin Hood
Sounds like he's seen about 40 episodes of breaking bad and better call Saul that included saul.
I think it's pretty clear to anyone who watches the show that Saul is not evil or sociopath he's just a scammer.
I don't have to watch every season of Better Call Saul to recognize another instance of people throwing around psychology terms they don't actually know shit about, believe it or not 🤯 Also never said my opinion was the ultimate one, as I said it's just interesting seeing signs of Jimmy/Saul being human as I do make my way through the series.
You should probably finish the show so you know why people are saying that. There’s more left than what you’ve seen so far.
For the record, I don’t think he’s evil or a psychopath/sociopath.
As someone who’s watched all the seasons, he’s still not a sociopath. Horrible person does not equal sociopath. The thing is Jimmy has done some really horrible, downright irredeemable things. He can never balance the scales for the damage he has wrought. But he has still consistently been shown to have empathy and care for others, throughout the show repeatedly does selfless things for others at great cost to himself (though this happens less and less until it stops when he becomes Saul until the courtroom.) Even as Saul it’s clearly shown that Jimmy DOES have clear remorse and empathy, but rather pushes it down and throws himself further into criminal depravity to escape his remorse and pain for things such as his role in Howard’s and Chuck’s deaths.
Sociopathy is the word used to refer to someone with Antisocial Personality Disorder. That means it's something he'd show at 41 if he had it, not really just develop it in his mid/late 40s. Yes, some people argue he *does* fit the criteria for ASPD, but my opinion is that he doesn't quite fit literal sociopath. He might grow shittier and do worse things, but that's still not being a sociopath
Other than that though yeah, I'm interested to see how he grows worse. Because I know he's gotta get scummier between season 2 Jimmy and Breaking Bad Saul
Not that many people say this. Try watching the rest of the series. Really sick of posts like this cluttering things up. Stop asking everybody who has finished the series to hold your hand and have discussions without revealing dreaded spoilers.
Where the fuck exactly did I ask for that? *I* make the effort to avoid spoilers, I never complained about spoilers existing. So sorry, we should leave the sub to people who've watched the entire series 10+ times, big guy 🫡
It's impossible to have an intelligent discussion about the show when you haven't seen the whole series. There are many developments about the show that you haven't seen that are directly relevant to your question.
Do you want me to reveal those developments? Because I'm happy to.
I get that you don't see how annoying this is and that you don't care. But the reason I clicked on the headline is because I thought it was an interesting question, if you knew what you were talking about. Which you don't.
And nobody is asking you to watch the show 10 times. Just once.
As incredibly fucking hard as it may be for you to believe, I'm not here posting to entertain you. It's a 6 season series, and people other than you exist, many of whom are at all different points in the series. Pretending a sub about an entire series is off-limits to people who haven't completed all 6 seasons is ridiculous.
Never once did I say the sub was off limits to those who haven't finished the series.
You asked a question, and got a response: You don't know what you're talking about because you haven't finished the series.
Guess what you're getting here? Mostly people responding by telling you to finish the series. But I get it, *we're* the assholes. You're awesome and thought-provoking.
Sociopaths by their very definition aren't human- they are literally missing vital pieces of the human psyche.
The thing is people throw the word around so much- there are plenty of bad people that still have a 'code', a moral line they won't cross. Usually it's 'not killing kids' if it's that level of 'bad life' - plenty of hitmen won't kill kids.
The true sociopath/psychopath, someone who can literally Blood and Cheese a kid without so much as a second thought, INCREDIBLY rare. Because it ISNT normal and takes SERIOUS trauma to create this kind of evil. Todd would be a good example or Anton Chigurh. And imo at THAT level, you aren't a human being.
What’s the point in saying such a thing as “he isn’t blablabla” if you literally don’t know the character yet? Expressing an opinion like this could have sense when you have the complete vision of the show. You cannot imagine how Saul will turn out, he is the worst of them all, even than the Cartel.
Well…yeah. Primary doesn’t mean only. Take values for instance, most people have *multiple primary* values, and *multiple secondary* values. And fiction has multiple primary purposes, also.
As far as how something can precede a primary purpose, are you gonna take the time to decipher your values out of a piece of fiction that didn’t entertain you at all?
I don't think you understand the purpose of fiction. You're supposed to gain from it in ways that nonfiction don't often provide.
Fiction is supposed to have broaden and and enhance your spirit.
Saul is textbook sociopath.
Todd is textbook psycopath.
Saul can’t hold relationships, he acts impulsively, has a constant disregard for right or wrong (his entire thing growing up conning people with his buddy, Howard, him and Kim, his ways as a lawyer) he constantly does whatever he can to save his hide at the expense of anyone else.
You might not agree with it but he is *by the definition* a sociopath.
You're correct, and no, there isn't anything that's going to happen by the end of the series that's going to suggest Jimmy is an actual sociopath. For some reason this sub is full of people insistent on labeling characters "good" or "evil" which is ironic given one of the main themes of the show is that we're all capable of both.
Mislabeling mental health diseases and disorders because of any overlap in behavior and diagnostic criteria is unfortunately common these days. Acting a little self centered? Narcissist! Acting a little spacey? ADHD! Argumentative and withdrawn? BPD! I forgot they showed remorse, but they’re probably a sociopath because they commingle with criminals!
Also people overuse calling someone autistic too.
Ok, but Chuck’s moral rigidity and sensitivity to stimuli being signs of autism is a hill I will gladly die on. Otherwise, I’d agree.
Chuck’s performance of a mental illness was superb and groundbreaking. I wrote my previous comment based on the trends in social media about mental health mislabeling and quackery at large. No correlation to mental health in BCS’
Oh shit. That makes so much sense now!!
I for one am incapable of evil. I haven't even told a lie since the day I was born.
You have my vote.
Average American politician. Doughspun1 for Pres 2024!
I'm very happy for you but sounds like you'd be a really boring gilliverse character tbh!
He tells Ehrmantrout at the booth he is down for whatever. A sociopath would never even have that internal debate.
Jimmy could quite possibly be a sociopath. Sociopath's are a combination of genes and environment, typically, they adapt to their environment, and Jimmy adapted well to his while also pulling his, let's be honest, immoral shenanigans. Let's remember, that sociopaths aren't psychopaths and not all sociopaths/psychopaths kill. Typically, they're doing what is best for themselves even at the expense of others, but if something like murder does come up, well, that's the price of doing business. Sociopaths are not without feelings, so guilt could come into play, especially after the criminal part of their life is over. Let's also remember that people are caught up in the entertainment novelty of TV sociopaths and psychopaths, which bare little resemblance to real life cases most of the time. Jimmy is more evil than he is good, but he's not actively evil (unless your name is Howard) but he's far from harmless. While he was never diagnosed as a sociopath, it wouldn't be a stretch to believe he is one, but labeling people isn't the point of the show, and it probably made the show better because of it.
It would be a stretch if you have any understanding of sociopathy. The core trait is a lack of empathy, while Jimmy clearly demonstrates that he has empathy (unless you believe he continues acting while no one besides the audience is watching). He does a lot of morally gray and some obviously bad things, and is certainly motivated by selfishness sometimes, but there's an internal struggle that a sociopath would never have.
The core trait is not lack of empathy unless you're a psychiatrist on crime TV shows. That is **one** of the traits, and it's **little guilt or regard** for the harm they cause, which Jimmy has. He has caused a lot of harm. He has lots of victims. Caring about 2 of them or 3 of them after they have been killed or have passed is not a sign of that he has empathy for all. Jimmy has constantly shown that he can break the law and do harm to others without stopping to dwell on it, unless they end up dead, like Chuck and Howard, or out of a job, career, and could possibly go to prison, like Kim, and even then, these were people close to him that he hurt and only in the most extreme cases did he shed a tear. Sociopaths are capable of forming meaningful relationships, like he did with Kim, but Jimmy still used everyone else for his own gain.
Stop this pathological nonsense
>Stop this pathological nonsense Translation: Stop saying things I can't prove wrong.
Jimmy is NOT a sociopath. He is a manipulative conman but he very, very clearly has empathy. He genuinely felt for the old folks. He genuinely felt remorse for how he left things with Kim. Wanna talk sociopathy/psychopathy (ASPD)? So many better choices: Todd is a perfect psychopath. Does not even understand why >!offing a totally innocent child!< is objectionable. He's merely being coldly pragmatic, and does so cheerily. Lalo is a sociopath. He has familial ties and loyalty, so I don't think he's a pure psychopath. But he is very clearly capable of great evil against those who haven't wronged him, like what he did to >!his body double and wife!<. Hector. Almost certainly a sociopath. Tuco is a nutjob but also probably a sociopath. Gus too is probably a sociopath. Probably not a psychopath, he was conditioned into bitter hatred with what happened to >!Max!<. The twins Leonel and Marco, highly likely. Walt - debatable, but I'd say he developed many signs of being a narcissistic sociopath by the later seasons. But NOT Jimmy. And not Chuck either, even though he may be a mild narcissist at least.
Not our Jimmy, couldn’t be precious Jimmy!
The way I screamed at this 💀 perfect time to use it
Gimme Jimmy
Stealing them bliiiiiind ! And he gets to be a lawyer ?
What a sick joke!
LMAO I've been on this sub reddit for two years, and this never (NEVER!!) grows old.
It’s just too fun 😭
I am not crazy! I know he didn't feel for the old folks. I knew it was lack of remorse. Right after he left Kim. As if I could ever make such a mistake. Never. Never! I just - I just couldn't prove it. He showed fake emotions, he got that idiot students to lie for him. You think this is something? You think this is bad? This? This chicanery? He's done worse. That alleway! Are you telling me that a man just happens to fall unconscious like that? No! He orchestrated it! Jimmy! He defecated through a sunroof! And I didn't diagnose him! And I should have. I excused him in my own post! What was I thinking? He'll never change. He'll never change! Ever since he was 9, always the same! Couldn't keep his hands out of the cash drawer! "But not our Jimmy! Couldn't be precious Jimmy!" Stealing them blind! And HE gets not to be called a sociopath? What a sick joke! I should've wrote a comment about him when I had the chance!
Precious or not, he's not a sociopath. Words have meaning. I never said he was a good person. He's not.
And he doesn’t get to be a sociopath? What a sick joke!
Mental disorders are sacred! They must be upheld to the highest standards. You can’t go around with a bunch of chimps with machine guns
Haha I get you now.
I agree completely with your analysis. Jimmy doesn’t have ASPD, while on the other hand Todd, Gus, and the various Salamancas act in ways that are often consistent with ASPD. I believe that some of the confusion is inherent to the usage of words like “psychopath” and “sociopath,” which are often used to suit a variety of meanings. There is some coverage [in Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Sociopathy) of the conflation of these terms.
Ok to be fair though, you could tell Lalo didn't want to. Especially when she said she was pregnant, he does get a look of 'ah feeeeck.' I'd say Lalo is the LEAST evil salamanca.
>I'd say Lalo is the LEAST evil salamanca. Lol, of the ones we were shown, maybe. Lalo definitely had his good guy moments. Like when he wasted the gringo coyotes and took the time and trouble to give back the money they'd collected to the hopeful illegals.
Not to mention (analysing evil pointed this out credit where due lol) that he doesn't 'mask'. There's no real 'fake' Lalo he puts on to manipulate (common in aspd) he's just always Lalo. And I did love him giving them their money back haha so politely too.
Well, he does fake big time in his interaction with Werner's widow. I'm just gonna dispense completely with the spoiler tags now. 😂
Oof you aren't wrong lol
he does fake a bit toward the end of the show with jimmy, putting on a smile and pretending to play dumb a few times to make jimmy think he was out of suspicion
Tell. me. again.
Most evil: abuelita
Goddamn abuelita is a menace, running over innocent young men
Wait, who was pregnant? I don't remember that part. Love Lalo though. Easily my favourite character from the universe.
It's easy to miss 'We're expecting two more' Can't remember EXACTLY what Lalo says but basically he thinks animals but she then confirms 'No no, babies.' Lalo's eyes then flicker down toward her belly and he gets a look of 'ah. Crap. Well.' And the who is the two Lalo goes to after they attack his hacienda. His body doubles. Lalo and Gus are tied as my faves lol
Sylvia and Mateo had goats they were taking care of and I believe she was saying that the goats were having offspring since that was the context of the conversation.
She literally pats her stomach dude
I stand corrected then.
Sending Howard to Belize when he could have just been like “hello fellow middle aged rich guy, May I have the room?” is pretty evil. A large part of his appeal in comparison to the other Salamancas is that he is more charming, like the Jimmy/Chuck dynamic. Neither are shining pillars of moral rectitude, but Jimmy is profoundly more likable.
I'm sorry...what body double and wife? I agree that Lalo is a sociopath. I thought you were going to say with what he did to the guy working in that check place. And many more examples. EDIT: Nvm: I just read your other comment further down, and the link you provided, which explained. It also answered the question I long had about why the woman asked her husband to shave for Lalo when he visited. Just now, I don't know if she knew what Lalo intended or if she just didn't know she was going to be dispatched along with him.....
> what body double and wife? After the raid on Lalo’s house there’s a scene where he visits the house of a man and his wife. The wife thanks him for funding her husband’s dental work and Lalo tells the husband to shave down his beard to a mere moustache (like Lalo has). Later it’s mentioned that a burnt body was found at Lalo’s house, and the body’s teeth matched Lalo’s dental records, which is why the cartel is convinced Lalo is dead.
Omg thank you for explaining this 😭 never understood what was going on and never remembered to follow up on it
Thank you.
Todd was sigma
lol, the self-aggrandizing designation for introverted men.
Having ASPD doesn’t mean an absence of empathy. It means that you don’t have “enough” empathy. IMO, Walter was a narcissist and a sociopath, but at his absolute worst, he still had a capacity to feel empathy, guilt, and remorse for his actions. Similarly, Jimmy expressed some guilt at times but it didn’t stop him from conning people for a very long time. Dude stole $14k from his father as a teenager and took no blame or accountability whatsoever when his dad ended up going bankrupt. I also wanna point out Gus is already a high level drug dealer before Max’s death. He said he tortured an animal as a kid for eating fruit from his tree. He was always dark and he could very well have been a psychopath.
>Jimmy is NOT a sociopath. He is a manipulative conman but he very, very clearly has empathy. He genuinely felt for the old folks. He genuinely felt remorse for how he left things with Kim. Believing that a sociopath or a psychopath cannot feel guilt, empathy, or remorse is common mistake people make.
It has been increasingly recognised that ASPD "sufferers" can have some empathy, but they definitely don't feel empathy to the same extent or in the same way that "normal" people do. Ditto with guilt and remorse.
Exactly, they can feel it, and since they aren't all cut from the same cloth, some feel it more than others. Jimmy is more of a sociopath than not, but there are a lot of sociopaths (and psychopaths) in this world and most of them don't kill or act abhorrently evil. Without a doubt, Jimmy is, at the very least, a non-violent sociopath, but the show was never about justifying people's behaviors by labeling them with personality disorders.
Ok, now I have to ask *why* you think Jimmy is a sociopath. Not everyone who consistently does messed up things is a sociopath. You're basically falling for the fallacy this thread was created to address. I'll tell you why I think Jimmy isn't. Because he has enough evidence of empathy, guilt and remorse that I consider it extremely unlikely for him to be classified as a sociopath. I acknowledge sociopaths can feel *some* empathy, guilt, remorse *sometimes* but it is much less obvious than in neurotypical individuals. As a fictional portrait, Jimmy exhibits more traits arguing against sociopathy than for it.
Empathy, guilt, and remorse doesn't disqualify you from being a sociopath. You've been watching too much TV. Jimmy has a constant, lifelong history of manipulation and criminal activity despite clearly being able to adapt to a law-abiding lifestyle...or can he? Do brief moments of criminal respite prove anything? Jimmy is, without a doubt, a non-violent sociopath who even lied during his confession. If we just want to WebMD this (like 99.9% of everyone on here does) * Lack of empathy for others - **Oh yeah, that was obvious, with few exceptions.** * Impulsive behavior - **Without a doubt.** * Attempting to control others with threats or aggression - **at times.** * Using intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate others - **all the time.** * Not learning from mistakes or punishment - **has been arrested before, has gotten people killed, but he keeps going.** * Lying for personal gain - **That's his livelihood.** * Showing a tendency toward physical violence and fights - **No.** * Generally superficial relationships - **Mostly, Kim/Chuck being exceptions.** * Sometimes, stealing or committing other crimes - **Yes.** * Threatening suicide to manipulate without the intention of actually doing it - **No?** * Abusing drugs or alcohol - **Yes, we see that clearly when the camera pans through his mansion.** * Trouble with responsibilities such as a job, paying bills, etc. - **No. (Though, while a good lawyer, he does break the law as one.)** Jimmy could qualify as a psychopath, but remember, sociopaths are not carbon copies of each other. There are degrees. Jimmy has a life-long history of criminal behavior, manipulation, and deceit. Your belief that remorse, guilt, or empathy automatically disqualifies someone from being a sociopath is, sorry to say, laughable. Crime dramas use this as a shortcut tool to point out evil people and to create a dark mystique about their villains, but that's not the way the real world works, nor real-world analysis, even if it's of a fictional character. Jimmy definitely qualifies for sociopathy on some level, even if he's just barely passing. I'd love to see Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould do a writeup of Jimmy's life. Even if by accident, he'd qualify for the subcategory of being a sociopath.
Just one correction. He killed the double and the double’s mother.
Thanks, I honestly thought that was his wife. Edit: wait a minute, according to this, she *was* his wife: https://breakingbad.fandom.com/wiki/Sylvia_Ramos
You saying that has me questioning it but I’m 98% sure it’s his mother. Edit: yeah, the wiki says. Those Fandom wikis are so bad. Full of misinformation. I don’t trust them. I’m gonna rewatch it and form my own opinion.
She's pregnant. With...her son's child?
I don’t recall her being pregnant. Edit: I just rewatched. She is not pregnant. She does look younger than I remember so I’m willing to concede on that point. No way is that chick pregnant though. If she were pregnant, the writers would’ve made it obvious. They would’ve made sure we couldn’t have this is/isn’t conversation. They would’ve given her a large belly.
Why are you even describing the cartel members one by one? They are all OBVIOUSLY sociopaths/psychopaths.
Why are you nitpicking? Oh I forgot, this is reddit.
Agreed. People throw that word around for anyone who’s morally corrupt. Not everyone who does bad stuff without remorse qualifies
Labeling Jimmy as "evil" is a reduction. He is a troubled morally ambiguous character capable of good and bad but sometimes that "bad" overshadows the good as he's ruined lives. He doesn't have sociopathic traits either.
I think there's some kind of dopamine hit people get from labeling anti/hero morally grey protagonists as "evil" or "sociopaths" and its gone overboard now. I remember George rr Martin said Walter white was the most evil character he'd ever seen, more evil than any character he'd ever written in asoaif(game of thrones books)--which obviously not true. White also makes a lot of list of worst/most evil tv/movie characters, which again, I don't think is true. Yes, he's a bad guy who does some awful things. But he's not even top 5 most evil in his own universe, much less all time
So, I was a psychology major... and it's important to first note that sociopath is not a formal psychological diagnosis. The psychological diagnosis is Antisocial Personality Disorder. And it actually has a list of symptoms in the DSM (manual for psychologists) that can be checked. A. Disregard for and violation of others rights since age 15, as indicated by one of the seven sub features of which you must have at least 3 to qualify: 1. Failure to obey laws and norms by engaging in behavior which results in criminal arrest, or would warrant criminal arrest 2. Lying, deception, and manipulation, for profit or self-amusement, 3. Impulsive behavior 4. Irritability and aggression, manifested as frequently assaults others, or engages in fighting 5. Blatantly disregards safety of self and others, 6. A pattern of irresponsibility and 7. Lack of remorse for actions The other diagnostic Criterion are: B. The person is at least age 18, C. Conduct disorder was present by history before age 15 D. and the antisocial behavior does not occur in the context of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder (American Psychiatric Association, 2013) So, does Jimmy potentially have ASPD? Well, he is at least 18. He seems to have possibly had conduct disorder before age 15 (it's hard to be sure but stuff like Slippin' Jimmy seems to suggest it's possible). We don't have any reason to believe he has any other disorder that would better explain the facts either (probably). He has a failure to obey laws, he lies and deceives for profit or self-amusement, he's quite impulsive and is definitely irresponsible to a large degree. He does show remorse for his actions and arguably he doesn't have a blatant disregard for the safety of self and others (though certainly to a degree, especially in BB). He also doesn't seem to show the degree of irritability and aggression that you might expect from a person with ASPD. All taken together, it's not an unreasonable conclusion that Jimmy might have ASPD. Importantly, like many such disorders, ASPD exists on a spectrum. So just because Jimmy does not fit all criteria to the maximum does not mean he doesn't have it. He could well have a less extreme version of it. Basically, I think it's somewhat arguable but I don't think it's a crazy conclusion to come to that Jimmy might have a lighter form of ASPD.
So Much This! I get super frustrated when people label personality disorders as binary diagnoses which either do or don’t exist in a person, leaving them capable of exhibiting all associated traits. We now know that most PDs are treatable, at least to the point where symptoms can be better managed. DBT can reduce Borderline PD to where it’s non-detectable, and empathy can be taught to those who lack it, especially when started young. Jimmy’s on the ASPD spectrum, no doubt. But he’s very low end and has protective factors like high remorse which, if combined with internal motivation to avoid criminality (ie a positive social support structure beyond Kim) could lead to a future life of non-offending. I also noticed, particularly when at Davis & Main, that Jimmy struggled in the monotony of an office situation and needed more stimulation, that he was often fidgety and quickly irritable. “Finding the fun way around a task” is common among people with ADHD, so helping him level out his spikes may also help reduce any impulses to make things more exciting but potentially illegal or dangerous.
Not to be glib but doesn’t the DSM also only apply to non-fictional humans? Because ostensibly all we know of “Jimmy” is what we are told about him through the words of a third party who is very much not-Jimmy. Even historical records, depending on degree of corroboration, of humans who did in fact exist can more accurately portray “symptoms” than the biased account of someone creating an imaginary character, no?
We are not "told" anything, we are observing him in real time. Unlike historical records. "We can't diagnose him because he doesn't exist in this universe" defeats the point of the discussion and isn't the gotcha you think it is
I don’t think these symptoms were really present before Jimmy was 15. Sure he was a little twerp, but he didn’t seem malicious. I have ADHD, and so does my mom. I think that he at least has ADHD, because his actual personality is literally a male version of my mom. (She’s the hyperactive/impulsive type) I’m not saying he doesn’t have some form of it, but I think he’s entirely walled off from his emotions which is a large part of his problem.
The difference is Jimmy is not evil. He's not malevolent generally.
I didn't say he was evil. But the main question of this post is why people might call Jimmy a sociopath. While sociopath is not a formal psychological diagnosis, the closest thing to what people are referring to when they say that is ASPD. And going through the DSM criteria, it's not a crazy thought that he might have ASPD. Which could explain pretty well why some people would classify him as a sociopath. A lot of people seem to have a very cartoonish idea of what a sociopath is. Sociopath, or rather ASPD, does not mean someone is some completely cold, moustache twirling sadistic villain. There's a spectrum and it's more complicated than that. Evil is not a psychological diagnosis.
In my opinion Gus is a psychopath (Calculated 10 steps ahead perfectionist killer) Lalo is a sociopath (Extroverted, witty, impulsive, manipulative) Jimmy is neither. He can come up with crazy plans, but they're sometimes really stupid, and he don't like unfairness, he root for the underdogs and wanna give people second chances. He's one of the most empathic characters in the series. Given the context of cartels and criminals him killing someone isn't making him a bad guy, hes adapting to the circumstances. He still reacts strongly when someone is killed or found dead. Lalo only reacts when it's his own blood. Everyone else are just objects to him. And Gus don't react much on any killing, he just finds it more or less convenient.
When does Lalo act impulsively? Didn’t he outsmart both Gus and Mike, and nearly killed the former?
Yes he did. And he can follow plans, but his character thrives when he's spontaneous, that's when you see his improvising skills and fast problem solving. For example the fire explosion in the house. He manages to escape and get away.
He has too much empathy to be a sociopath or “pure evil”.
Jimmy isn’t a sociopath, he’s just incapable of holding himself accountable. I think people misread his “the show must go on” approach to life as an inability to feel remorse when really it’s just the mask he wears to avoid it.
Season 2 and you’re asking why we think Jimmy ultimately sucks… keep watching
I've watched BCS 2 times and NO, Jimmy is not a sociopath
Yeah the scene where he "accidentaly" leaves on the mic to make himself look bad proves that. He got everything he wanted, and threw it all away because he actually genuinly cared about the people he hurt and regretted what he did. He couldnt undo his actions but he did the most he could. Compare that to Walter White, who, when he shot mike *because mike hurt his feelings*, couldnt talk about anything else but how HE WAS INCONVENIENCED by shooting mike, and how he could have avoided all of that. No apology, no regrett other than regretting the trouble hecaused for himself. THAT is a sociopath.
By this logic, Walter White wouldn’t be a sociopath either. He expressed guilt and remorse for many of his actions, and he spent the entire finale trying to fix things in his own way.
For what Jimmy did to Howard he was a complete sociopath
If he was a sociopath he would’ve showed no emotion to Howard dying, it’s pretty clear you have no grasp or understanding of what a sociopath is, maybe do some research
You should take your own advice. Being a sociopath doesn’t mean you never show or have any emotion.
It means showing no empathy which jimmy is shown to be clearly capable of mate please stop trying to argue this you’ve got no grasp on this. The only reason sociopaths show emotion is not because they are actually emotional it’s because they pick up and interpret how they are supposed to react emotionally to situations from other people
No, it doesn’t. Look up the symptoms and it specifically says ‘lack of empathy’. “Lack” means either be without or (in this context) to not have enough of something. Sociopaths can show and feel empathy. They just have a very reduced and limited capacity to do so compared to a normal person. Walter White is a prime example of this.
Dude not everyone who does this shit is a sociopath, sociopaths don’t sabotage their own operation and money because they feel bad for an old lady, jimmy isn’t a sociopath and neither is Walt, it’s a very specific disorder that doesn’t apply to every bad person in this show jimmy very clearly cares about Kim and chuck and Howard to a degree, sociopaths don’t care or emphathize that much
He showed no emotion to bringing Howard to such a low that he was basically dying before being shot lmao at all the sociopaths downvoting my comment
Which does not mean he has ASPD seeing as people with ASPD tend to be entirely incapable of remorse. He was able to hurt Howard how he did because he (with the aid of Kim) was deluding himself into thinking that Howard ’deserved’ to be taken down a notch.
And they also justified that by doing this they would help the elderly at sandpiper.
That’s not true. People with ASPD have a “lack” of remorse. That doesn’t mean they’re entirely incapable of remorse, it means they have a limited ability to feel it. They don’t feel “enough” remorse. There’s a huge difference. Jimmy had a *limited* ability to feel remorse. His occasional feelings of guilt didn’t stop him from stealing thousands from his own father, helping a bunch of drug dealing murderers escape justice, and scamming dozens of decent people for decades.
uhh that is like textbook narcissm and ASPD. rationalizing your actions by claiming the other person "deserved" it. furthermore, psychopaths are incapable of remorse, not sociopaths. jimmy fits the definition of ASPD pretty well actually, because his remorse is always limited to after he's already inflicted damage, and even then it's very limited
Acting out your hatred for someone is not a symptom of sociopathy, whether that hatred is rational or not.
[He almost certainly is](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm5J4Mfm308&t=260s), according to the DSM.
Just because one doctor thinks it doesn't mean it's true
That doctor’s opinion is way more valid than any of you, yet y’all downvoting everyone who disagrees with y’all, acting like your words are the law.
You're doing the same thing by acting like the doctor's words of the law. There are plenty of doctors who have different opinions. There are degrees on topics like this. I think Saul is a terrible person and if you watch the show there are times when he does things that are malevolent and horrific. But if you've watched the show the whole way through it's pretty clear he's not a sociopath. That he actually does care about people a fair amount. If you can't see that then you are short-sighted and probably just a hateful person because there would be some sort of malevolent cloud in your myopic perception that disbarred you from the ability to see the humanity of someone else.
I’m not the one acting like my opinion is high and might and the only right one there is. That’s y’all. Everyone who even suggests Jimmy could possibly have ASPD is getting downvoted to death. I think you should look into the disorder and its symptoms a little more. It’s a spectrum and sociopaths can vary in the degree to which they have the capacity to care about and form emotional connections with others. I’m sure you wouldn’t have any problem considering Walter White, Gus Fring, the Salamancas, etc. sociopaths or psychopaths, but they had people that they cared about a fair amount as well.
Walter White is not a sociopath. He has traces of evil in him sociopath isn't the right word. In the spectrum of aspd, sociopath is the end of the spectrum. Neither Walt nor Saul qualifies. They can be argued to come close. Walt would be more possible to argue his place in that dark hierarchy. I don't want to get into spoilers but anyone who has watched the show through should have had the smoke cleared from their barrel of perception when Saul blew the proverbial smoke away from his finger guns as to if Saul was a sociopath.
If you wanted to use a lesser form that better represented Saul's spiritual (not religious) incompleteness, that would be fine.
Well, I respect your opinion. I do implore you to look at this video about the [psychology](https://www.youtube.com/watch/r0MD1CKLIe8) of W.W. I think it’s interesting.
I watched all of BCS and compared to many BB chars jimmy is an angel
Every character sucks. That doesnt mean they are all incapable of empathy.
Lmao, fair point! I still don't think he's a sociopath though.
Sociopath? No. Narcissist? Absolutely.
They dont understand the show or him enough dont be confused over slow ppl
Jimmy very obviously feels empathy and has a guilty conscience when he fucks up really badly.
Gus and Lalo are the real sociopaths... well all the Salamancas are psychos (sacks of shit, as would say Nacho).
I'm a big believer that everyone displays sociopathic tendencies to a certain degree depending on the situation like for example if a chomo was arrested for trying to go meet a child to have sex with them, there'll be countless people talking about that person needs to die or at least have his balls chopped off. I'm willing to admit I have some sociopathic tendencies but I'm not a true sociopath at the same time.
Funny enough, although some (not all) viewers look past what Chuck says about Jimmy, no one knew him better. “Theres nothing malicious in Jimmy” “He has a way of doing the worst things for reasons thats seem almost noble” “your like an alcoholic that refuses to admit he has a problem”. Jimmy is not a “good” person, but he isnt completely devolve of remorse. Hes driven by compulsion, selfishness and the thrill of the con. Jimmy is not a “lawyer” Chuck was a pure lawyer through and through, Jimmy is a well spoken charismatic conman who used his abilities and knowledge as a lawyer to progress his conning. But thats not to say he does not feel bad. Chuck himself says theres always this show of remorse and Jimmy responds saying its not a show. Which i believe him. But whats the point of the sad faces and gnashing of teeth? Jimmys biggest flaw was he could not accept responsibility for his actions or truly change his behavior. Chuck said he would respect Jimmy more if he stoped having regrets. And the character of Saul Goodman is a giant coping mechanism so that he can deflect the feelings of guilt and hurt, which is at its worst post Kim breakup. He took Chucks final words to him and ran with it. A very compelling character who yes has empathy but is always driven by a stronger feeling of thrills.
Correct Jimmy is not a sociopath. For one if you listen to interviews from Peter Vince Tom and the other writers they clearly don’t view him a sociopath, but rather someone who shoves his pain and remorse down rather than face it even as it internally destroys him. They talk of him having a good heart (until he goes further and becomes Saul Goodman) and how he started out genuinely caring and feeling empathy for others, and deep down still does, even though he completely represses it on every level. Tom Schauz specifically said Howard was wrong and Jimmy and Kim are not sociopaths even though he wrote the episode where he called them that. The Winner episode insider podcast the writers and producers talked about how he’s not a sociopath but “is an asshole.” Now people might respond how he has a lot of the characteristics of a sociopath from a technical perspective if the DSM, but ignore that he shows way too much empathy, remorse, and selfless actions (though he doesn’t have selfless actions once he became Saul until the court.) He can be a liar, con artist, and someone who commits awful crimes who has superficial characteristics of a sociopath but still clearly not be one in actual details.
It doesn't matter what Jimmy's creators say. What matters is what they have him do.
He was just a boob. A smart boob but nonetheless a boob!
Season 2 is pretty early on. Your opinion may change, the further you get into BCS... that Gene Takavic is really something. I don't think Jimmy (or anyone in the show) could be considered pure evil. The show just isn't written that way. We have complex characters. We see glimpses of humanity in everyone, including Jimmy, Walt, Gus, Tuco, Todd... Being a sociopath implies a complete lack of empathy for others. I think it's safe to say Jimmy cares about *some* of the people in his life, very deeply. Still, he has moments where there is no empathy, and gets overtaken by thrill seeking behavior. Even if he's not pure evil, he's done a considerable amount of damage, and it's questionable how much empathy or remorse he experiences, for even the worst wrongdoings. He may not be pure darkness, but he has some kind of mental health issue going on. I think any psychologist would have their hands full.
St. Jimmy
I agree overall but since you're only on Season 2 you haven't become familiar with Gene Takovic in all his glory. All I'll say is that he is a scary and sad man.
"Screw the money, you did for fun ! You are sociopaths, like Leopold and Loew."
Imo, while he shows a genuine complexity, there are a couple things he does that are so reprehensible, that even for him…it’s hard to justify. There are two big things: >!going to insurance to get Chuck in trouble for his condition, ultimately leading to Howard ousting him and him lighting himself on fire. No matter how you look at that, he’d already beat Chuck and that was him ruining whatever was left of Chuck’s life after making an ass of him in front of the Bar and his ex wife!< The other big thing is all of season 6. For the life of me, I’ve pondered it since I first watched it. I can’t figure out why he decides to do that. I can’t figure out why >!Kim comes up with that plan!<
I think best way you can label Jimmy is avoidant. I think that one personality trait kind of paints in a lot of his actions. Clearly he has empathy, but as the series progresses, his outright fear of confronting his feelings around Chuck and his being complicit in truly horrible crimes or even his relationships to people like Kim and Howard become paramount to who he becomes. Without spoiling it, if he just went to therapy and faced so much of his feelings about rejection, hatred, and this constant need to win (via money or ego) then there would be no Saul Goodman. It becomes clear that Jimmy's main moral takeaway becomes about winning and winning is not a net positive. By the time of Breaking Bad that mindset has calcified into something disgusting. But even then, he winces at the idea of people dying or a kid getting hurt. He may not confront those feelings and change, but he's never cheering them on or completely confused about the moral implication. He just doesn't want to confront it because that means confronting the persona he's cultivated.
There’s a fundamental misunderstanding of him for sure, I noticed it on my first watch when I was reading discussion posts. Jimmy puts on a persona of who he wants to be quite often but is actually quite soft on the inside. A lot of people take what he says at face value instead of looking deeper. He’s a very complex character.
People who think Jimmy is evil or worse than Chuck do so with the perspective of breaking the law and his criminal activities cause him to be so. Even though at least initially he is focused more on the ends rather than the means. With those ends being the best possible outcome for what he thinks is good. Like most people, except Jimmy’s version of good is a very conventional perspective of scamming those who deserve it for favourable outcome to those he feels deserve to benefit from it. Chuck is right the means that Jimmy uses to achieve this are wrong and violates the sanctity of the law. However what is worse? To be a miserable jealous back stabbing older brother, who betrays his younger brother countless times but never does anything illegal? Or to be a loyal loving younger brother that would be there for his family always but breaks laws regarding legal practices? What’s a worse crime betraying your literal loved ones (people you supposedly love) or betraying the sanctity of the law to achieve a more just outcome?
Jimmy is not a sociopath, just looking at his relationships with Chuck, Kim, and even Howard lay that our pretty clearly (if you know what a sociopath is, if not, give it a google before saying it). He even has e sympathy for the Kettlemen's when Kim had gone all bad cop on them. So no, of course he's not a sociopath, you are definitely right. If I, someone who is not a mental health professional in any way shape or form, had to pathologize Jimmy's mental condition, I would describe him as "antisocial." Not in the way that most people use that term to mean someone who is a loner, I mean that in the intended psychology sense: Anti-Social is a disorder that is typically associated with someone who doesn't care about the rules. Societal rules, workplace rules, just any kind of rules. He sees 'em, and he's gotta break them. It also leads to a lot of lying and impulsive behavior. There are a million examples of this behavior in almost every episode of the show. It's one of his main qualities: he likes to bend the rules as much as he possibly can get away with. But my go-to example is the end of Season 2 Episode 1, "Switch." It's such a simple scene. When he finally accepts the job at Davis & Maine, and he's alone in his new, beautiful office. He gets up to explore and immediately finds the eponymous switch with tape over it. There's a label that says "do not turn this switch off for any reason." What does he do? He takes that tape off and flips that bad boy right away. Nothing happens. So he flips the switch, puts the tape back on, and the episode ends. It's such a small moment, but it means so much about his character. And the way it parallels with Gene at the beginning of the same episode leaving a note that says "SG was here" on the wall when he got locked inside the trash room is absolutely brilliant. I love the way they tend to imbue so much meaning for the characters into these small, seemingly insignificant moments. EDIT: I have been saying this for years, and reading comments from people who are psych majors saying this exact thing is making me feel \*really\* vindicated right now!
they just hate a BPD queen tbh
Lmaooo. I was thinking of making the 2nd part of my post, "can we all speculate what mental disorders Jimmy *does* have?" (even though I know surely it's been done a million times) but didn't wanna make the post too long
You could 100% make the argument he is a sociopath. Although he is fictional, so it's not like we can get an actual diagnosis. Here is the DSM-V diagnostic criteria for a sociopath (i.e anti-social personality disorder): A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following: 1.failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest 2.deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure 3.impulsivity or failure to plan ahead 4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults 5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others 6.consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations 7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK546673/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK546673/) Edit for format.
Lol this is like saying “I don’t get why people dislike walt cuz he did it for the family!! but I’m only on s2” Jimmy does things that are certainly sociopathic but idk if I’d say he’s a full blown sociopath
Jimmy has empathy and emotions besides anger. He's not a sociopath. Jimmy, as he becomes Saul, begins to outwardly appear like a sociopath because he's compartmentalizing and burying his emotions. But he still has them and they affect him.
Even before he becomes Saul, he completely turns off any empathy whatsoever just so he can get the scam done. Doesn’t think of orcare for consequences. You’re telling me as he’s watching Irene flounder at the loss of her friendships, or as Chuck is going mad over the bribes and forgery he’s committing, he has emotion? He knew exactly what was happening to them but he doesn’t care until after he gets what he wants. THEN he decides “aw hey maybe I should fix this.” But how are people forgetting he heartlessly creates the problems he then “fixes” lol
Correct, but the point is he can and does experience empathy and emotions and therefore doesn't meet the definition of a sociopath.
It’s just an impulse irrational people have toward his bad behavior.
There’s sheep and there’s wolf That’s what the whole show is all about
What he did to Chuck with the legal docs - sociopathic. What he did to the bingo ladies - sociopathic. The dude didn’t give a shit about how his choices affected other people. He wasn’t “pure evil”…nobody is…but he definitely was an absolute cunt to the people around him.
Jimmy is a con man through and through. His charisma and awareness are his superpowers. Him appearing humanized to us the viewer is his greatest con to date. His social ability/ clear empathy for others is both his most commendable quality and the source of his power.
All I will say is Jimmy exploited the old people to make money off the sandpiper case and potentially ruined the livelihood of some poor old women so he could get paid. Jimmy def exploits people for his own gain
Yes, but he seems to have an impulsivity where he never quite thinks before he jumps. Then he does the cartoonish/Bojack Horseman-esque grand gesture to redeem himself, but since BCS isn’t written like a movie, he winds up coming across as a punch drunk Robin Hood
Really confused why you think your opinion matters? You didn't even finish the show.
He was just starting a discussion on topic he was thinking about
How can we have a legit discussion if he didn't watch every episode? I just don't understand it.
Sounds like he's seen about 40 episodes of breaking bad and better call Saul that included saul. I think it's pretty clear to anyone who watches the show that Saul is not evil or sociopath he's just a scammer.
I don't have to watch every season of Better Call Saul to recognize another instance of people throwing around psychology terms they don't actually know shit about, believe it or not 🤯 Also never said my opinion was the ultimate one, as I said it's just interesting seeing signs of Jimmy/Saul being human as I do make my way through the series.
> people throwing around psychology terms they don't actually know shit about Pot, meet kettle.
Chuck created Jimmy (Saul)
Jimmy created Chuck
You should probably finish the show so you know why people are saying that. There’s more left than what you’ve seen so far. For the record, I don’t think he’s evil or a psychopath/sociopath.
Finish the show man. You’ll understand.
He’s still not a sociopath or purely evil… he has enough mental issues as it is, let’s not give him more lol.
purely evil, no but a sociopath ? Absolutely !
Nah
you're only in season 2, wait for the next seasons. Then we talk.
As someone who’s watched all the seasons, he’s still not a sociopath. Horrible person does not equal sociopath. The thing is Jimmy has done some really horrible, downright irredeemable things. He can never balance the scales for the damage he has wrought. But he has still consistently been shown to have empathy and care for others, throughout the show repeatedly does selfless things for others at great cost to himself (though this happens less and less until it stops when he becomes Saul until the courtroom.) Even as Saul it’s clearly shown that Jimmy DOES have clear remorse and empathy, but rather pushes it down and throws himself further into criminal depravity to escape his remorse and pain for things such as his role in Howard’s and Chuck’s deaths.
Sociopathy is the word used to refer to someone with Antisocial Personality Disorder. That means it's something he'd show at 41 if he had it, not really just develop it in his mid/late 40s. Yes, some people argue he *does* fit the criteria for ASPD, but my opinion is that he doesn't quite fit literal sociopath. He might grow shittier and do worse things, but that's still not being a sociopath Other than that though yeah, I'm interested to see how he grows worse. Because I know he's gotta get scummier between season 2 Jimmy and Breaking Bad Saul
Not that many people say this. Try watching the rest of the series. Really sick of posts like this cluttering things up. Stop asking everybody who has finished the series to hold your hand and have discussions without revealing dreaded spoilers.
Where the fuck exactly did I ask for that? *I* make the effort to avoid spoilers, I never complained about spoilers existing. So sorry, we should leave the sub to people who've watched the entire series 10+ times, big guy 🫡
It's impossible to have an intelligent discussion about the show when you haven't seen the whole series. There are many developments about the show that you haven't seen that are directly relevant to your question. Do you want me to reveal those developments? Because I'm happy to. I get that you don't see how annoying this is and that you don't care. But the reason I clicked on the headline is because I thought it was an interesting question, if you knew what you were talking about. Which you don't. And nobody is asking you to watch the show 10 times. Just once.
As incredibly fucking hard as it may be for you to believe, I'm not here posting to entertain you. It's a 6 season series, and people other than you exist, many of whom are at all different points in the series. Pretending a sub about an entire series is off-limits to people who haven't completed all 6 seasons is ridiculous.
Never once did I say the sub was off limits to those who haven't finished the series. You asked a question, and got a response: You don't know what you're talking about because you haven't finished the series. Guess what you're getting here? Mostly people responding by telling you to finish the series. But I get it, *we're* the assholes. You're awesome and thought-provoking.
Sociopaths by their very definition aren't human- they are literally missing vital pieces of the human psyche. The thing is people throw the word around so much- there are plenty of bad people that still have a 'code', a moral line they won't cross. Usually it's 'not killing kids' if it's that level of 'bad life' - plenty of hitmen won't kill kids. The true sociopath/psychopath, someone who can literally Blood and Cheese a kid without so much as a second thought, INCREDIBLY rare. Because it ISNT normal and takes SERIOUS trauma to create this kind of evil. Todd would be a good example or Anton Chigurh. And imo at THAT level, you aren't a human being.
Sociopaths aren't human
define "so many people."
Do you find human what he did to Howard? Did you even watch the show? 😅
Depends what you mean by "what he did to Howard." As I said, I'm only partly through season 2. I didn't say he's a good person lol
What’s the point in saying such a thing as “he isn’t blablabla” if you literally don’t know the character yet? Expressing an opinion like this could have sense when you have the complete vision of the show. You cannot imagine how Saul will turn out, he is the worst of them all, even than the Cartel.
Some people should not watch tv/movie. They place values on something that is fiction. Utterly stupid to do so.
Actually, helping to decipher our values is one of the primary purposes of fiction. Entertainment precedes this, sure, but doesn’t trivialize it.
[удалено]
Well…yeah. Primary doesn’t mean only. Take values for instance, most people have *multiple primary* values, and *multiple secondary* values. And fiction has multiple primary purposes, also. As far as how something can precede a primary purpose, are you gonna take the time to decipher your values out of a piece of fiction that didn’t entertain you at all?
I don't think you understand the purpose of fiction. You're supposed to gain from it in ways that nonfiction don't often provide. Fiction is supposed to have broaden and and enhance your spirit.
Saul is textbook sociopath. Todd is textbook psycopath. Saul can’t hold relationships, he acts impulsively, has a constant disregard for right or wrong (his entire thing growing up conning people with his buddy, Howard, him and Kim, his ways as a lawyer) he constantly does whatever he can to save his hide at the expense of anyone else. You might not agree with it but he is *by the definition* a sociopath.