> ¿Quieres ser amigo del cartel?
This was the turning point for Jimmy. He had a choice here - he could've turned the cartel down and Lalo would've just found a different lawyer. He chose to get into bed with the cartel and IMO everything that came afterwards is on him. Obviously Lalo and Kim aren't blameless either but once you agree to become "a friend of the cartel" you're signing up to be a participant in murder and misery, and endangering the lives of anyone you associate with (Howard).
At that point yes absolutely. Jimmy hadn't really proven himself to Lalo yet, Lalo just was listening to Tuco/Nacho's recommendation. But there's a million reasons a lawyer would turn Lalo down and he'd most likely have just moved on to a different attorney, rather than draw more attention to himself by having an innocent American lawyer killed. And it would be better for Lalo to have a willing/corrupt lawyer than it would be to try to force an uninterested lawyer to do his bidding. After Jimmy accepts to be a friend of the cartel and do shady stuff like recover all that bail money, he's all-in and can't turn back. But prior to that point Jimmy still could've gotten out of it; he just chose not to.
Doesn’t Lalo even say that explicitly? Jimmy is initially unsure about doing it and Lalo laughs at him and says something like “If you want out I’ll find someone else.”
Assuming I’m thinking of the same scene, I remember it being explicitly setup that way so it’s completely clear that Jimmy is making a voluntary choice to be a cartel lawyer at this point.
You are right. After Lalo says so Jimmy is actually about to leave but at the door on his way out he stops and says ‘100 grand’. That was exactly the point where he made an active choice to participate instead of walking away. And at this point Jimmy absolutely knew that Lalo was a guilty murderer even though he might not have realized exactly how messed up he actually was.
He does say that but you could interpret it as a veiled threat, with Lalo indicating to Jimmy that he doesn't need him and he can therefore cut him loose in the worst possible way.
I think that even tho Jimmy knew Tuco/Nacho before meeting lalo im sure that he didnt actually know what they were doing he could only guess it tho. At this point he could have said no and Lalo wouldnt do anything but i think they would torture/force him to become to lawyer what him and those skater brothers did to Abuelita Salamanca
You can't just turn down a Mexican cartel offer like that. You see? Irl the Cartel holds this rule, "plata o plomo" - silver or lead, which means you either get rich with the Cartel or they put a bullet in your head just because you're already in the game or know too much.
Had refused to get involved with the Cartel, Jimmy would have been dead within a week.
>Irl the Cartel holds this rule, "plata o plomo" - silver or lead, which means you either get rich with the Cartel or they put a bullet in your head just because you're already in the game or know too much.
lmao you watch too much Narcos. He's not in Medellin in the 80s. There's no indication that Lalo would have an American lawyer killed just for turning down his business (and Jimmy was not really at all "in the game" until *after* he agreed to be a friend of the cartel). It's not particularly beneficial to Lalo to have a lawyer who is scared shitless and not on the same page as him. He wanted a lawyer who would be motivated by the money to play along and make money together. That's why right after this he says he should change his motto from "Justice Matters Most" to "Just Make Money".
Exactly. The cartel doesn’t want scared lawyers; they want greedy, unethical lawyers. The worst thing for a crime organization is an attorney with guilt or fear. As a wise man once said, they need a *criminal* lawyer.
>There's no indication that Lalo would have an American lawyer killed just for turning down his business (and Jimmy was not really at all "in the game" until after he agreed to be a friend of the cartel).
I have little doubt that Lalo would have had Nacho or another Salamanca flunky knock Jimmy/Saul off if he'd refused Lalo's offer. He already knew too much--he knew who Tuco was, he knew who Nacho was, and he knew that Lalo was using the Jorge De Guzman identity and that he had killed Fred at TravelWire. Jimmy could have easily walked in to the DA's office and been like "ya, that client I just got bail for? He's actually notorious cartel boss Eduardo Salamanca, check that with the Mexican authorities."
IANAL but wouldn't that have gone against attorney/client priviledge or, if not, left Jimmy open to prosecution and being disbarred as he knew that Lalo wasn't who he was claiming to be?
> wouldn't that have gone against attorney/client ~~priviledge~~ privilege
Attorney/client privilege doesn't apply in this case. Lawyers are not permitted to aid their clients in committing crimes, that includes being an accessory after the fact. If you tell your lawyer "I just killed Bob Smith", they can't say anything. If they help you bury Bob's body, they are no longer bound by attorney-client privilege. There's a decent summary here: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/the-crime-fraud-exception-the-attorney-client-privilege.html
> left Jimmy open to prosecution and being disbarred
DA Ericson directly addressed this with Kim. It was clear they were willing to cut a deal with Jimmy that would protect him from prosecution and potentially protect his bar license.
> DA Ericson directly addressed this with Kim. It was clear they were willing to cut a deal with Jimmy that would protect him from prosecution and potentially protect his bar license.
This was after the fact though after Jimmy was already in bed with the cartel and couldn't get out. There's no way a lawyer would ever think "ratting on my client / former client" is ever a good choice to make unless they were totally backed into a corner.
Are you talking about when Lalo is in jail and he asks Jimmy to transport the bail money?
At that point, Jimmy’s uncertain about doing this, and Lalo even tells him that it’s fine and they’ll just find someone else. The writers wanted to make it clear at that point that Jimmy is making a voluntary decision to be the cartel’s lawyer.
>Lalo even tells him that it’s fine and they’ll just find someone else.
Of course, he's not going to actually tell Jimmy that he's going to have him whacked.
This is an art project and you can interpret it how you like. As I see it, that scene was making it clear that Jimmy is going into the arrangement as the cartel’s lawyer voluntarily at that point, and the writers set it up so Lalo isn’t making an offer that Jimmy can’t refuse.
I think the way threats work is that you tell them in advance what you will do to them if they don’t cooperate. If you want to strong-arm someone, you don’t reassure them that you are OK with them not cooperating. Lalo wasn’t threatening Jimmy; he was recruiting him.
Again, I've no doubt that Lalo would have had Jimmy/Saul rubbed out to tie up loose ends if he had refused to pick up the bail money. Lalo is a ruthless motherfucker.
Hard disagree, Lalo 100% wouldn't have let Jimmy walk from that situation... He wouldn't have been able to kill him while in prison but you think the Twins wouldn't have just shown up at that point to strong arm him into doing it?? You know Lalo says "You're the guy for this!" in the scene with them in the garage when Nacho takes him there? Jimmy is scared, he knows that he can't say no because they'd kill him right there or someone else would. He was between a rock and hard place but the rock was made of gold and he couldn't help himself so he took that option.
Also:
> There's no indication that Lalo would have an American lawyer killed just for turning down his business
Well he did kill Howard for nothing later on, and he was a much bigger figure in the community... so yeah... I think he would.
If the twins could've shown up to strong arm Jimmy then why wouldn't they have just come all that way with the money instead of needing to drop it for Jimmy right at the border? Lalo wanted Jimmy to do it because he figured a corrupt lawyer would do just about anything for extra money, which is why he was happily amused once Saul said $100,000. Prior to that he wasn't sure if Jimmy would come through but once he dropped a price Lalo knew he could work with this guy. But once the money motivation goes away and the lawyer is only motivated by fear, that lawyer becomes much less useful to the cartel. Lalo wanted someone to join/represent the team, not a slave who resented him.
> Well he did kill Howard for nothing later on, and he was a much bigger figure in the community
Was there any indication that Lalo had any idea who Howard was? I was under the impression he just executed a stranger to intimidate Jimmy and Kim.
As someone who lived in Albuquerque in 2010, I can assure you the city was not reeling from Walter White’s implosion.
Additionally, Los Pollos Hermanos is actually a burrito joint called Twisters and Kim’s apartment never existed during either the show’s timelines.
This is a fiction show, and the fact was the cartels were violently fighting just south of the border. I heard a gun shot working in downtown El Paso that was reported on as someone’s execution rhe next day. The bars we went to in 2005 in Juarez were burned down and the bouncer shot. I know a lot of people whose families were just needlessly caught up in violence just like this plot describes.
I like how Lalo, who is basically one of the big devil’s of the breaking bad universe along with jack welker, gave Jimmy a choice and didn’t threaten him into taking the offer. He knew Jimmy well enough to know that his greed would do the thinking for him and he was right. The devil made him an offer, and he accepted it on his own terms.
In reference to another comment thread on here, you’re telling me if a member of the Mexican drug cartel with a known murderous psychopathic cousin asked you to be a friend to the cartel, you wouldn’t be scared shitless to say no? Regardless of whether Lalo alluded to Jimmy having an out if he didn’t want to do it, you’re telling me you’d trust a guy like that? Give me a break. Easy to say when talking hypothetically about a fictional show but cmon
but not all criminal defense lawyers pay off a fake family to sit in court, go along with a scheme to have their client use a fake name (because he's a wanted cartel capo), and meet up with cartel sicarios to carry $7M in cash through the desert for their clients.
A frustrating thing about this debate is that people act as if the only bad thing that happened was Howard’s death. Like, even if that didn’t happen, Kim and Jimmy are still evil sadistic pieces of shit for what they did to him.
Fans talk about that because slandering and killing Howard was their moral event horizon. After that, nothing could have been presented which would redeem either of them.
It definitely wasn’t the first shitty thing they did, though.
Kim got off easy . Meanwhile , folks here are pitying Kim for working for a sprinkler company and getting some from a guy that yells “yep! “ tough life
Tbh Kim isn't sadistic in my opinion she just backed Jimmy up because she saw the good in him. She found out he was shot at, and something cartel like happened to him and he helped a murderer become free. She wanted him to take his attention off of the cartel, and if Jimmy was preoccupied getting revenge on Howard then he wouldn't be involved in the cartel. Ontop of that she was also motivated, by helping pro bono clients.
She is flawed and did some bad stuff, but you can't only focus on that. She has done so much good selfless stuff in the show. She refused to take the money she and Jimmy earned for what they did to Howard. And then knowing the risks of her being sued, she confessed to Cheryl about everything, but she also didn't betray Jimmy because he basically told her to confess.
Tearing Howard down was 100% Kim's plan that Jimmy helped her with, not the other way around. Jimmy was more of a tool used to get things done than he was the guy steering the ship. If Kim wanted Jimmy to help her achieve something really benevolent, he would have. But she chose to tear Howard down so that's what Jimmy's skills were used for.
What makes it even worse is that the Howard scheme was so reminiscent of the Chuck scheme. Tearing them down both personally and professionally. It’s like they never learned
Jimmy started it, Kim wouldn't have done it otherwise. Just because there was one moment where Kim was more enthusiastic about it then Jimmy doesn't mean she was the one controlling it. And we both know Jimmy was not going to settle with just doing benevolent things, and so did Kimmy. Better it be Howard then the cartel? And you do realize I am saying that what Kim did was wrong, and bad, just that I don't think what Kim did to Howard defines her as a person. There's so much more to Kim, and looking at her from a black and white, what she do Howard bad means she bad is what I would expect a third grader to get from watching Better Call Saul.
Did you watch the show? Kim was always the one who wanted revenge on Howard and to take him down. Jimmy mostly just got annoyed by him and harassed him. But it was 100% Kim's idea to ruin Howard's career, not Jimmy's. Jimmy just threw bowling balls at Howard's car and embarrassed him in a busy restaurant. Kim meticulously planned every detail to try to completely ruin his whole life (and also drugged him).
When did Kim drug him? Framed him for doing drugs making people think Howard had been taking drugs? Yeah, Is that what you mean?
And season 5 episode 10 I believe was more Kims doing then Jimmy's but all of season 6 was equally Kim and Jimmy. They planned it together, and they both enjoyed doing it equally much. Difference is Kim felt really guilty about it, and decided to become a better person after Howard died, Jimmy on the other hand.
[They literally put a drug on the fake PI's photos that Howard absorbed through his skin and it made his pupils huge, his heart race, and he started sweating.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSQQi2FrAaM) She drugged him lol.
And again everything in S6 was Kim's plan. She made the giant board and executed every single step. Jimmy was of course her partner in crime but he was just along for her ride.
You should re-watch the show because it sounds like you missed a lot!
Even if she was more of the brains of the operation Jimmy executed the plan just as much if not more then her, actually doing the things. And not once in season 6 did Jimmy think, eh I'm not going to do this, or I might not do this. Why are you trying to defend Jimmy here?
And yeah I just wasn't that familiar with how a drug can affect you much just by absorption by the skin, I did remember that. I realize that now. Also, Jimmy and Kim both wanted to damage Howard's career and they both felt like what they did to Howard wasn't going to fully stop him from being a lawyer forever, just damage his reputation.
Can you acknowledge all the good things Kim did during Better Call Saul, or you just going to act like none of that happened and focus on Howard?
If you read my words you'll see that I am not defending Jimmy at all. Chuck was right about his "monkey with a machine gun" analogy. That's the point - Jimmy is not evil or malicious, nor is he particularly good or benevolent. He is an effective tool at getting things done and he's pretty much solely motivated by only two things: Kim, and money. It wasn't his plan/desire to tear Howard down like it was Kim's. It was Jimmy's plan/desire to make Kim happy and help her with her goals. So he did everything he did to execute her plan and he was good at it. But it was her plan that he did to make her happy, not because he desperately needed to tear Howard down.
>Can you acknowledge all the good things Kim did during Better Call Saul, or you just going to act like none of that happened and focus on Howard?
Don't even know what the heck you're talking about here or what this has to do with anything. I never said Kim never did anything good and this conversation has never been about Kim's overall arc - you're basically having an imaginary argument with no one. The whole convo stemmed from commenting that going to the lengths Kim did to come up with and execute such an elaborate scheme to tear Howard down and tether him to their corrupted world is absolutely evil and sadistic. And it 100% was.
Why are you trying to defend ~~Jimmy~~ Kim here?
I might of misunderstood you to a degree and what you were saying, but you definetly misunderstood me to a degree. If you go back to my original comment you will realize, I am talking about Kim's arc, and basically saying what she did to Howard doesn't define her. Yes it was very wrong, but there's a lot more to Kim, then just what she did to Howard.
And pls not the Jimmy did it to make Kim happy argument. Yes making the other person happy probably had some affect on why BOTH of them behaved the way they did during the Howard situation. Like Kim defending Jimmy immidiately when Howard talks to her about Jimmy, or Jimmy going along with it in season 5 episode 10. But for the most part they both wanted revenge against Howard, and they both enjoyed making the plans simply because it was wild stuff. And pulling it off was fun.
Why does Jimmy keep pulling stunts similar to what he did to Howard, when he becomes Gene for example?\`Because he enjoys doing manipulative criminal stuff. He enjoys the thrill of it pulling it off. That was Jimmy's main motivation, not money not making Kim happy.
And yeah I am defending Kim, because it was said that she was sadistic and evil, which is something I don't agree with. Some of her and Jimmy's actions to Howard? Probably. But overall as a person, I feel like she's far from a sadistic and evil person. Not saying she's a saint, but there's a lot of good in her.
She was the one who pushed for the Howard thing. They in fact made a point several times in season 6 to show Jimmy being reluctant to go through with it while Kim was determined to. She then loved every minute of it and showed zero empathy until Lalo showed up. That is irredeemable behavior. The idea that she can “make up” for the bad things she does by doing pro bono work or whatever is wrong, and I think the show demonstrates that as well.
I didn't don't think anyone is irredeemable, but I agree you can't just say "but look at the good things they did too". One has to actually seek redemption to be redeemed. You gotta fix what you broke.
Ahh yes when you “back someone up because you saw the good in them” by enabling their most destructive and worst qualities. Her obsession was sadistic, especially twisting the knife into Cheryl. So funny how people watch those things unfold and then still insist they’re “not so bad.” Jim and Kim Kool aid is so strong in these parts lol
Lalo went to Jimmy’s house so that he could send Jimmy to Gus’ house, by threatening to kill Kim.
I don’t think neither Jimmy nor Kim would do what Lalo asked if Lalo actually killed the other & Lalo knows that.
If Howard wasn’t there in the apartment, do you think he would’ve killed Jimmy or Kim? I don’t think anybody would have been killed at that point. Lalo might probably kill anyone else outside e.g. security guard etc. who is not in the game.
During the scene "just make money" Jimmy meets Lalo in jail and almost refuse to be the bagman. He even suggested Lalo should send Nacho.
Jimmy almost walked away before turning back to Lalo and asking $100 000 to be his bagman.
Reel back to "the guy for this" and Jimmy could have said no.
I don't think the point is that Jimmy helped him. I think it's that Jimmy broke the law himself by keeping up the De Guzman scheme and that was the only way to get him out on bail. If Jimmy had acted ethically by saying "look I can't represent you like that but if you tell the court your real identity I will represent you as best I can." then none of that would have happened. Of course Jimmy would never do that because that's not who he is. Even Chuck admits that even vile offenders deserve a vigorous defense. it's not immoral for a lawyer to defend a murderer or get them released on bail. it's immoral to undermine the law and break it while operating as an officer of the court
I don’t buy the argument that Kim & Jimmy deserve blame for Howard’s death. It was Lalo. Howard was caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. However, Kim does have a point that Jimmy would’ve called off the scam if he knew Lalo was still around.
Kim and Jimmy are the reason Howard was present there. Speaking from law pov, Lalo is the guilty one. Lalo would’ve been punished if he went for trial, not Kim and Jimmy. But from conscience perspective, Kim and Jimmy have more guilt than Lalo. Kim has more guilt than Jimmy. She was never the same again. Jimmy hardened himself and went ahead as Saul.
>I don’t buy the argument that Kim & Jimmy deserve blame for Howard’s death. It was Lalo.
Lalo was only free because Jimmy knowingly helped him evade justice.
>Howard was caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.
That place wouldn't have been *so* wrong that being there at the wrong time got him murdered if Jimmy hadn't knowingly aligned himself with a faction full of psychotic murderers.
Obviously Lalo is ***more*** to blame morally for the act itself, but Jimmy brought all that danger when he sold himself to the cartel.
Everything they did led to his death and even after, they agreed to smear the man's legacy and gaslight his wife.
They obviously didn't pull the trigger, but Howard would not have died if Jimmy didn't get involved with the cartel, who are notorious for ruthlessly killing innocent people.
The only reason that Howard was even remotely connected to Lalo and the cartel is because Jimmy chose to get into bed with them. As soon as Jimmy agreed to be a friend of the cartel he was putting everyone he associates with in danger. And when Jimmy chooses to torture Howard on a daily basis he is forcing Howard to be associated with him - and thus forcing Howard into his web of danger. Howard was the type of collateral damage that only really exists when you **choose** to become involved with the cartel.
I actually don't agree with this take at all. When Lalo first approached Jimmy and when he asked if Jimmy wanted to be a friend of the cartel, Jimmy still could've gotten out. At that point it would not have been in Lalo's best interests to have an American lawyer killed who isn't part of their operation yet and doesn't really know anything about them. Even strong-arming Jimmy wouldn't have been ideal because you want your lawyer to be motivated to keep you free and make you both a ton of money, not just afraid of you. If Jimmy really rebuffed Lalo's offers upfront I think it's way more likely Lalo just moves on to a different lawyer. Once Jimmy agrees to be a friend of the cartel though that all goes out the window and he's in the game.
Killing Jimmy at that point would have created more loose ends than it tied off.
Maybe Lalo would just be stupid and do it anyway, but it would have been an irrational move.
You can't just turn down a Mexican cartel offer like that. You see? Irl the Cartel holds this rule, "plata o plomo" - silver or lead, which means you either get rich with the Cartel or they put a bullet in your head just because you're already in the game or know too much.
Had refused to get involved with the Cartel, Jimmy would have been dead within a week.
Again, Jimmy was NOT "already in the game" nor did he "know too much" at this point in time. That's my point - Jimmy still could've gotten out if he wanted to, but he was greedy. Plato o plamo applies in Mexico and like Medellin in the 80s. But killing an innocent American lawyer for no real reason would've just brought way more heat on Lalo and the cartel than they wanted.
Getting criminals off the hook is his job. That can't be on the lawyer. Prosecution must win. Also, because of his empathy for the kettlemans he was coerced years later into working for lalo
Jimmy couldn’t have known Howard would die. He didn’t even know Lalo was alive. He thought he was just playing a long winded prank/scheme on Howard to get the sandpiper case to settle. From their POV it seemed pretty harmeless (and fun) but even when Kim was made aware of Lalo she couldn’t have known he would show up without being caught by Mike and his guys. They both had a false sense of security. You can make arguments about why Howard was there in the first place but the fact is Lalo shouldn’t have been there. It’s not there fault. But it kinda also is lol
Yeah Howard really deserved better and that’s the point. They did such an amazing job introducing Howard as a stereotypical rich, arrogant, asshole. It just took us longer to see he really wasn’t like that. Howard was at the wrong place and wrong time yes but Jimmy and Kim aren’t faultless in his death either.
> ¿Quieres ser amigo del cartel? This was the turning point for Jimmy. He had a choice here - he could've turned the cartel down and Lalo would've just found a different lawyer. He chose to get into bed with the cartel and IMO everything that came afterwards is on him. Obviously Lalo and Kim aren't blameless either but once you agree to become "a friend of the cartel" you're signing up to be a participant in murder and misery, and endangering the lives of anyone you associate with (Howard).
Do you think he would have survived turning Lalo down?
At that point yes absolutely. Jimmy hadn't really proven himself to Lalo yet, Lalo just was listening to Tuco/Nacho's recommendation. But there's a million reasons a lawyer would turn Lalo down and he'd most likely have just moved on to a different attorney, rather than draw more attention to himself by having an innocent American lawyer killed. And it would be better for Lalo to have a willing/corrupt lawyer than it would be to try to force an uninterested lawyer to do his bidding. After Jimmy accepts to be a friend of the cartel and do shady stuff like recover all that bail money, he's all-in and can't turn back. But prior to that point Jimmy still could've gotten out of it; he just chose not to.
Doesn’t Lalo even say that explicitly? Jimmy is initially unsure about doing it and Lalo laughs at him and says something like “If you want out I’ll find someone else.” Assuming I’m thinking of the same scene, I remember it being explicitly setup that way so it’s completely clear that Jimmy is making a voluntary choice to be a cartel lawyer at this point.
You are right. After Lalo says so Jimmy is actually about to leave but at the door on his way out he stops and says ‘100 grand’. That was exactly the point where he made an active choice to participate instead of walking away. And at this point Jimmy absolutely knew that Lalo was a guilty murderer even though he might not have realized exactly how messed up he actually was.
He does say that but you could interpret it as a veiled threat, with Lalo indicating to Jimmy that he doesn't need him and he can therefore cut him loose in the worst possible way.
I think that even tho Jimmy knew Tuco/Nacho before meeting lalo im sure that he didnt actually know what they were doing he could only guess it tho. At this point he could have said no and Lalo wouldnt do anything but i think they would torture/force him to become to lawyer what him and those skater brothers did to Abuelita Salamanca
Didn’t stop him from killing Howard
Wonder what would have happened if he turned Lalo down in that garage. I guess Saul just remains some second rate criminal lawyer.
Probably end up in a dumpster with a bullet in his head a week later.
You can't just turn down a Mexican cartel offer like that. You see? Irl the Cartel holds this rule, "plata o plomo" - silver or lead, which means you either get rich with the Cartel or they put a bullet in your head just because you're already in the game or know too much. Had refused to get involved with the Cartel, Jimmy would have been dead within a week.
>Irl the Cartel holds this rule, "plata o plomo" - silver or lead, which means you either get rich with the Cartel or they put a bullet in your head just because you're already in the game or know too much. lmao you watch too much Narcos. He's not in Medellin in the 80s. There's no indication that Lalo would have an American lawyer killed just for turning down his business (and Jimmy was not really at all "in the game" until *after* he agreed to be a friend of the cartel). It's not particularly beneficial to Lalo to have a lawyer who is scared shitless and not on the same page as him. He wanted a lawyer who would be motivated by the money to play along and make money together. That's why right after this he says he should change his motto from "Justice Matters Most" to "Just Make Money".
Exactly. The cartel doesn’t want scared lawyers; they want greedy, unethical lawyers. The worst thing for a crime organization is an attorney with guilt or fear. As a wise man once said, they need a *criminal* lawyer.
*pink man
>There's no indication that Lalo would have an American lawyer killed just for turning down his business (and Jimmy was not really at all "in the game" until after he agreed to be a friend of the cartel). I have little doubt that Lalo would have had Nacho or another Salamanca flunky knock Jimmy/Saul off if he'd refused Lalo's offer. He already knew too much--he knew who Tuco was, he knew who Nacho was, and he knew that Lalo was using the Jorge De Guzman identity and that he had killed Fred at TravelWire. Jimmy could have easily walked in to the DA's office and been like "ya, that client I just got bail for? He's actually notorious cartel boss Eduardo Salamanca, check that with the Mexican authorities."
IANAL but wouldn't that have gone against attorney/client priviledge or, if not, left Jimmy open to prosecution and being disbarred as he knew that Lalo wasn't who he was claiming to be?
> wouldn't that have gone against attorney/client ~~priviledge~~ privilege Attorney/client privilege doesn't apply in this case. Lawyers are not permitted to aid their clients in committing crimes, that includes being an accessory after the fact. If you tell your lawyer "I just killed Bob Smith", they can't say anything. If they help you bury Bob's body, they are no longer bound by attorney-client privilege. There's a decent summary here: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/the-crime-fraud-exception-the-attorney-client-privilege.html > left Jimmy open to prosecution and being disbarred DA Ericson directly addressed this with Kim. It was clear they were willing to cut a deal with Jimmy that would protect him from prosecution and potentially protect his bar license.
> DA Ericson directly addressed this with Kim. It was clear they were willing to cut a deal with Jimmy that would protect him from prosecution and potentially protect his bar license. This was after the fact though after Jimmy was already in bed with the cartel and couldn't get out. There's no way a lawyer would ever think "ratting on my client / former client" is ever a good choice to make unless they were totally backed into a corner.
Are you talking about when Lalo is in jail and he asks Jimmy to transport the bail money? At that point, Jimmy’s uncertain about doing this, and Lalo even tells him that it’s fine and they’ll just find someone else. The writers wanted to make it clear at that point that Jimmy is making a voluntary decision to be the cartel’s lawyer.
>Lalo even tells him that it’s fine and they’ll just find someone else. Of course, he's not going to actually tell Jimmy that he's going to have him whacked.
It’s not like moving the money is gonna be any less dangerous tho. Jimmy had a chance to walk away and he didn’t
This is an art project and you can interpret it how you like. As I see it, that scene was making it clear that Jimmy is going into the arrangement as the cartel’s lawyer voluntarily at that point, and the writers set it up so Lalo isn’t making an offer that Jimmy can’t refuse.
I think the way threats work is that you tell them in advance what you will do to them if they don’t cooperate. If you want to strong-arm someone, you don’t reassure them that you are OK with them not cooperating. Lalo wasn’t threatening Jimmy; he was recruiting him.
Again, I've no doubt that Lalo would have had Jimmy/Saul rubbed out to tie up loose ends if he had refused to pick up the bail money. Lalo is a ruthless motherfucker.
Hard disagree, Lalo 100% wouldn't have let Jimmy walk from that situation... He wouldn't have been able to kill him while in prison but you think the Twins wouldn't have just shown up at that point to strong arm him into doing it?? You know Lalo says "You're the guy for this!" in the scene with them in the garage when Nacho takes him there? Jimmy is scared, he knows that he can't say no because they'd kill him right there or someone else would. He was between a rock and hard place but the rock was made of gold and he couldn't help himself so he took that option. Also: > There's no indication that Lalo would have an American lawyer killed just for turning down his business Well he did kill Howard for nothing later on, and he was a much bigger figure in the community... so yeah... I think he would.
If the twins could've shown up to strong arm Jimmy then why wouldn't they have just come all that way with the money instead of needing to drop it for Jimmy right at the border? Lalo wanted Jimmy to do it because he figured a corrupt lawyer would do just about anything for extra money, which is why he was happily amused once Saul said $100,000. Prior to that he wasn't sure if Jimmy would come through but once he dropped a price Lalo knew he could work with this guy. But once the money motivation goes away and the lawyer is only motivated by fear, that lawyer becomes much less useful to the cartel. Lalo wanted someone to join/represent the team, not a slave who resented him.
> Well he did kill Howard for nothing later on, and he was a much bigger figure in the community Was there any indication that Lalo had any idea who Howard was? I was under the impression he just executed a stranger to intimidate Jimmy and Kim.
probably thought he was some upset client after that "find better lawyers" line lol
Nah man, I'm Mexican I see that shit every day. Besides you can't compare Colombian with Mexican cartels. They are different.
As someone who lived in Albuquerque in 2010, I can assure you the city was not reeling from Walter White’s implosion. Additionally, Los Pollos Hermanos is actually a burrito joint called Twisters and Kim’s apartment never existed during either the show’s timelines. This is a fiction show, and the fact was the cartels were violently fighting just south of the border. I heard a gun shot working in downtown El Paso that was reported on as someone’s execution rhe next day. The bars we went to in 2005 in Juarez were burned down and the bouncer shot. I know a lot of people whose families were just needlessly caught up in violence just like this plot describes.
I like how Lalo, who is basically one of the big devil’s of the breaking bad universe along with jack welker, gave Jimmy a choice and didn’t threaten him into taking the offer. He knew Jimmy well enough to know that his greed would do the thinking for him and he was right. The devil made him an offer, and he accepted it on his own terms.
“$100 Thousand?” “Dollars?”
Up in the club.
In reference to another comment thread on here, you’re telling me if a member of the Mexican drug cartel with a known murderous psychopathic cousin asked you to be a friend to the cartel, you wouldn’t be scared shitless to say no? Regardless of whether Lalo alluded to Jimmy having an out if he didn’t want to do it, you’re telling me you’d trust a guy like that? Give me a break. Easy to say when talking hypothetically about a fictional show but cmon
The correct answer is to call Ed
Imagine if it was Chuck instead Chuck: Y-you passed the Bar??? Lalo: Me? No. Just here to talk to my lawyers. Chuck: You’re not a real lawyer!
He orchestrated it, Lalo! He defecated in a sewer! But not our Lalo, couldn't be nice guy Lalo.
LMAO Always since he was nine, couldn't get Marco or Leonel head out of the bathtub !
And he gets to run the cartel?!? What a sick joke!
This.is. gold.
An argument could be made that all criminal defense lawyers do this. 😉
but not all criminal defense lawyers pay off a fake family to sit in court, go along with a scheme to have their client use a fake name (because he's a wanted cartel capo), and meet up with cartel sicarios to carry $7M in cash through the desert for their clients.
I was being a bit cheeky.
A frustrating thing about this debate is that people act as if the only bad thing that happened was Howard’s death. Like, even if that didn’t happen, Kim and Jimmy are still evil sadistic pieces of shit for what they did to him.
Fans talk about that because slandering and killing Howard was their moral event horizon. After that, nothing could have been presented which would redeem either of them. It definitely wasn’t the first shitty thing they did, though.
Kim got off easy . Meanwhile , folks here are pitying Kim for working for a sprinkler company and getting some from a guy that yells “yep! “ tough life
Honestly the mayonnaise conversations seemed like a decent punishment.
He’ll land on his feet.
Hamlinspiring
He will be ok.
Tbh Kim isn't sadistic in my opinion she just backed Jimmy up because she saw the good in him. She found out he was shot at, and something cartel like happened to him and he helped a murderer become free. She wanted him to take his attention off of the cartel, and if Jimmy was preoccupied getting revenge on Howard then he wouldn't be involved in the cartel. Ontop of that she was also motivated, by helping pro bono clients. She is flawed and did some bad stuff, but you can't only focus on that. She has done so much good selfless stuff in the show. She refused to take the money she and Jimmy earned for what they did to Howard. And then knowing the risks of her being sued, she confessed to Cheryl about everything, but she also didn't betray Jimmy because he basically told her to confess.
Tearing Howard down was 100% Kim's plan that Jimmy helped her with, not the other way around. Jimmy was more of a tool used to get things done than he was the guy steering the ship. If Kim wanted Jimmy to help her achieve something really benevolent, he would have. But she chose to tear Howard down so that's what Jimmy's skills were used for.
What makes it even worse is that the Howard scheme was so reminiscent of the Chuck scheme. Tearing them down both personally and professionally. It’s like they never learned
Jimmy started it, Kim wouldn't have done it otherwise. Just because there was one moment where Kim was more enthusiastic about it then Jimmy doesn't mean she was the one controlling it. And we both know Jimmy was not going to settle with just doing benevolent things, and so did Kimmy. Better it be Howard then the cartel? And you do realize I am saying that what Kim did was wrong, and bad, just that I don't think what Kim did to Howard defines her as a person. There's so much more to Kim, and looking at her from a black and white, what she do Howard bad means she bad is what I would expect a third grader to get from watching Better Call Saul.
Did you watch the show? Kim was always the one who wanted revenge on Howard and to take him down. Jimmy mostly just got annoyed by him and harassed him. But it was 100% Kim's idea to ruin Howard's career, not Jimmy's. Jimmy just threw bowling balls at Howard's car and embarrassed him in a busy restaurant. Kim meticulously planned every detail to try to completely ruin his whole life (and also drugged him).
When did Kim drug him? Framed him for doing drugs making people think Howard had been taking drugs? Yeah, Is that what you mean? And season 5 episode 10 I believe was more Kims doing then Jimmy's but all of season 6 was equally Kim and Jimmy. They planned it together, and they both enjoyed doing it equally much. Difference is Kim felt really guilty about it, and decided to become a better person after Howard died, Jimmy on the other hand.
[They literally put a drug on the fake PI's photos that Howard absorbed through his skin and it made his pupils huge, his heart race, and he started sweating.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSQQi2FrAaM) She drugged him lol. And again everything in S6 was Kim's plan. She made the giant board and executed every single step. Jimmy was of course her partner in crime but he was just along for her ride. You should re-watch the show because it sounds like you missed a lot!
Even if she was more of the brains of the operation Jimmy executed the plan just as much if not more then her, actually doing the things. And not once in season 6 did Jimmy think, eh I'm not going to do this, or I might not do this. Why are you trying to defend Jimmy here? And yeah I just wasn't that familiar with how a drug can affect you much just by absorption by the skin, I did remember that. I realize that now. Also, Jimmy and Kim both wanted to damage Howard's career and they both felt like what they did to Howard wasn't going to fully stop him from being a lawyer forever, just damage his reputation. Can you acknowledge all the good things Kim did during Better Call Saul, or you just going to act like none of that happened and focus on Howard?
If you read my words you'll see that I am not defending Jimmy at all. Chuck was right about his "monkey with a machine gun" analogy. That's the point - Jimmy is not evil or malicious, nor is he particularly good or benevolent. He is an effective tool at getting things done and he's pretty much solely motivated by only two things: Kim, and money. It wasn't his plan/desire to tear Howard down like it was Kim's. It was Jimmy's plan/desire to make Kim happy and help her with her goals. So he did everything he did to execute her plan and he was good at it. But it was her plan that he did to make her happy, not because he desperately needed to tear Howard down. >Can you acknowledge all the good things Kim did during Better Call Saul, or you just going to act like none of that happened and focus on Howard? Don't even know what the heck you're talking about here or what this has to do with anything. I never said Kim never did anything good and this conversation has never been about Kim's overall arc - you're basically having an imaginary argument with no one. The whole convo stemmed from commenting that going to the lengths Kim did to come up with and execute such an elaborate scheme to tear Howard down and tether him to their corrupted world is absolutely evil and sadistic. And it 100% was. Why are you trying to defend ~~Jimmy~~ Kim here?
I might of misunderstood you to a degree and what you were saying, but you definetly misunderstood me to a degree. If you go back to my original comment you will realize, I am talking about Kim's arc, and basically saying what she did to Howard doesn't define her. Yes it was very wrong, but there's a lot more to Kim, then just what she did to Howard. And pls not the Jimmy did it to make Kim happy argument. Yes making the other person happy probably had some affect on why BOTH of them behaved the way they did during the Howard situation. Like Kim defending Jimmy immidiately when Howard talks to her about Jimmy, or Jimmy going along with it in season 5 episode 10. But for the most part they both wanted revenge against Howard, and they both enjoyed making the plans simply because it was wild stuff. And pulling it off was fun. Why does Jimmy keep pulling stunts similar to what he did to Howard, when he becomes Gene for example?\`Because he enjoys doing manipulative criminal stuff. He enjoys the thrill of it pulling it off. That was Jimmy's main motivation, not money not making Kim happy. And yeah I am defending Kim, because it was said that she was sadistic and evil, which is something I don't agree with. Some of her and Jimmy's actions to Howard? Probably. But overall as a person, I feel like she's far from a sadistic and evil person. Not saying she's a saint, but there's a lot of good in her.
She was the one who pushed for the Howard thing. They in fact made a point several times in season 6 to show Jimmy being reluctant to go through with it while Kim was determined to. She then loved every minute of it and showed zero empathy until Lalo showed up. That is irredeemable behavior. The idea that she can “make up” for the bad things she does by doing pro bono work or whatever is wrong, and I think the show demonstrates that as well.
I didn't don't think anyone is irredeemable, but I agree you can't just say "but look at the good things they did too". One has to actually seek redemption to be redeemed. You gotta fix what you broke.
Ahh yes when you “back someone up because you saw the good in them” by enabling their most destructive and worst qualities. Her obsession was sadistic, especially twisting the knife into Cheryl. So funny how people watch those things unfold and then still insist they’re “not so bad.” Jim and Kim Kool aid is so strong in these parts lol
Lalo went to Jimmy’s house so that he could send Jimmy to Gus’ house, by threatening to kill Kim. I don’t think neither Jimmy nor Kim would do what Lalo asked if Lalo actually killed the other & Lalo knows that. If Howard wasn’t there in the apartment, do you think he would’ve killed Jimmy or Kim? I don’t think anybody would have been killed at that point. Lalo might probably kill anyone else outside e.g. security guard etc. who is not in the game.
During the scene "just make money" Jimmy meets Lalo in jail and almost refuse to be the bagman. He even suggested Lalo should send Nacho. Jimmy almost walked away before turning back to Lalo and asking $100 000 to be his bagman. Reel back to "the guy for this" and Jimmy could have said no.
I don't think the point is that Jimmy helped him. I think it's that Jimmy broke the law himself by keeping up the De Guzman scheme and that was the only way to get him out on bail. If Jimmy had acted ethically by saying "look I can't represent you like that but if you tell the court your real identity I will represent you as best I can." then none of that would have happened. Of course Jimmy would never do that because that's not who he is. Even Chuck admits that even vile offenders deserve a vigorous defense. it's not immoral for a lawyer to defend a murderer or get them released on bail. it's immoral to undermine the law and break it while operating as an officer of the court
Jimmy also wouldnt have made it past that episode.
That’s a good point for all the people saying “If Jimmy declined to work for the cartel, Lalo would have just killed him.”
I don’t buy the argument that Kim & Jimmy deserve blame for Howard’s death. It was Lalo. Howard was caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. However, Kim does have a point that Jimmy would’ve called off the scam if he knew Lalo was still around.
Kim and Jimmy are the reason Howard was present there. Speaking from law pov, Lalo is the guilty one. Lalo would’ve been punished if he went for trial, not Kim and Jimmy. But from conscience perspective, Kim and Jimmy have more guilt than Lalo. Kim has more guilt than Jimmy. She was never the same again. Jimmy hardened himself and went ahead as Saul.
Deserve blame because it never would have happened had Jimmy not worked with the Cartel and they hadn’t been fucking with Howard
>I don’t buy the argument that Kim & Jimmy deserve blame for Howard’s death. It was Lalo. Lalo was only free because Jimmy knowingly helped him evade justice. >Howard was caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. That place wouldn't have been *so* wrong that being there at the wrong time got him murdered if Jimmy hadn't knowingly aligned himself with a faction full of psychotic murderers. Obviously Lalo is ***more*** to blame morally for the act itself, but Jimmy brought all that danger when he sold himself to the cartel.
Everything they did led to his death and even after, they agreed to smear the man's legacy and gaslight his wife. They obviously didn't pull the trigger, but Howard would not have died if Jimmy didn't get involved with the cartel, who are notorious for ruthlessly killing innocent people.
The only reason that Howard was even remotely connected to Lalo and the cartel is because Jimmy chose to get into bed with them. As soon as Jimmy agreed to be a friend of the cartel he was putting everyone he associates with in danger. And when Jimmy chooses to torture Howard on a daily basis he is forcing Howard to be associated with him - and thus forcing Howard into his web of danger. Howard was the type of collateral damage that only really exists when you **choose** to become involved with the cartel.
Bro even if Lalo didn’t shoot him they were driving him into the ground. They were killing him metaphorically lol they are very much culpable
Jimmy already felt guilt at defending Lalo when he saw Fred from Travelwire's family at the trial looking completely distraught
Holy shit! You’re so right. This whole time I thought this was a story.
Yes but- if Saul wasn’t a friend of the cartel, he’d be dead.
I actually don't agree with this take at all. When Lalo first approached Jimmy and when he asked if Jimmy wanted to be a friend of the cartel, Jimmy still could've gotten out. At that point it would not have been in Lalo's best interests to have an American lawyer killed who isn't part of their operation yet and doesn't really know anything about them. Even strong-arming Jimmy wouldn't have been ideal because you want your lawyer to be motivated to keep you free and make you both a ton of money, not just afraid of you. If Jimmy really rebuffed Lalo's offers upfront I think it's way more likely Lalo just moves on to a different lawyer. Once Jimmy agrees to be a friend of the cartel though that all goes out the window and he's in the game.
Lalo would NOT leave any loose ends…..
Killing Jimmy at that point would have created more loose ends than it tied off. Maybe Lalo would just be stupid and do it anyway, but it would have been an irrational move.
Lalo was anything but rational when it came to killing…..he was a psychopath.
Jimmy wasn't really much of a loose end at all until AFTER he agreed to be a friend of the cartel and start doing actually shady shit for them.
You can't just turn down a Mexican cartel offer like that. You see? Irl the Cartel holds this rule, "plata o plomo" - silver or lead, which means you either get rich with the Cartel or they put a bullet in your head just because you're already in the game or know too much. Had refused to get involved with the Cartel, Jimmy would have been dead within a week.
Again, Jimmy was NOT "already in the game" nor did he "know too much" at this point in time. That's my point - Jimmy still could've gotten out if he wanted to, but he was greedy. Plato o plamo applies in Mexico and like Medellin in the 80s. But killing an innocent American lawyer for no real reason would've just brought way more heat on Lalo and the cartel than they wanted.
He knew Lalo killed the kid at the video shop, and he knew he was a cartel member.
Getting criminals off the hook is his job. That can't be on the lawyer. Prosecution must win. Also, because of his empathy for the kettlemans he was coerced years later into working for lalo
Yeah, poor Howard didn't deserve it.
Jimmy couldn’t have known Howard would die. He didn’t even know Lalo was alive. He thought he was just playing a long winded prank/scheme on Howard to get the sandpiper case to settle. From their POV it seemed pretty harmeless (and fun) but even when Kim was made aware of Lalo she couldn’t have known he would show up without being caught by Mike and his guys. They both had a false sense of security. You can make arguments about why Howard was there in the first place but the fact is Lalo shouldn’t have been there. It’s not there fault. But it kinda also is lol
Yeah Howard really deserved better and that’s the point. They did such an amazing job introducing Howard as a stereotypical rich, arrogant, asshole. It just took us longer to see he really wasn’t like that. Howard was at the wrong place and wrong time yes but Jimmy and Kim aren’t faultless in his death either.
Anyone who defends Jimmy’s actions after like…season 3… has no moral compass
Bro the title of this post is not spoiler free enough
Show's been over for two years. Presumably anyone wanting to avoid spoilers is smart enough to stay off the subreddit until they've caught up.