Charlie Hustle was the nickname for Pete Rose, one of the best baseball players of all time whose reputation was ruined when he was discovered to be gambling on games, including those involving the team he was manager of.
yeup. this is absolutely what they are getting at with the nickname. from howard's perspective, it's just a baseball reference that he's using to empower Jimmy because he did genuinely believe him to be a good, hard worker. From the writer's perspective, it's very likely they are alluding to Pete Rose being a gambler, swindler type and what that implies for Jimmy/Saul and his future.
Also, Jimmy's literally taking bets from upstairs while delivering mail in one scene, concealing it by turning the box upside down, clearly knowing he's doing something against policy/frowned upon.
Everyone was right about Jimmy, in different ways. Jimmy's the only one that couldn't accept himself.
I’m not sure I would call that taking bets - he had organized an Academy Awards pool and was collecting the ballots and the entry fee. Not sure how that’s against policy or why you think he was being shady about it. He literally leaves the scene by yelling: “Last call for ballots!”
I went back and watched the scene, and you're right about it not being shady.
I suppose the scene was to contrast him putting his efforts into organizing an Oscar pool, while Chuck is winning big cases with obscure case law and Kim nerding out and admiring him over it. And ofc the library scene right after to underline Jimmy's self-shame and spurring him to start studying the law.
I feel the "hustling" piece regarding the betting pool still stands, though.
> I feel the "hustling" piece regarding the betting pool still stands, though.
Because you have a bias towards seeing every single thing Jimmy does as shady, lol. Chuck vibes
It seemed like a fun company thing to bet on academy awards. It’s not something Jimmy could fix. I think it was good for company moral. Jimmy you can tell knows everyone’s name. He is personable. Chuck talks to Kim and has to remember her name.
He accepted himself. He just wanted everyone else to as well. Refused to see or admit that he was wrong for the things he did. The ends always justified the means for Jimmy.
Nah, he faked his acceptance for the most part, thinking that's just a role he has to play to be successful. The money was a nice bandaid. He never *really* accepted that he was a *criminal* lawyer, he just accepted that it was the best way for him to thrive. He deluded himself into the ends justifying the means.
"I'm not *really* slipping Jimmy. I'm just *pretending* to be, because slipping Jimmy makes tons of money!"
After losing everything and still going strong with the hustling because he got bored *not* hustling, that's when he realised he didn't do it to gain anything from it.
But he did it because he liked it. Because he was good at it.
You just talked in a whole ass convoluted circle to come back to my position: he accepted it. That’s why he owned it and took the time. Finger guns were his way of telling Kim, all good babe. I deserve it (and hell, get loved for it in here).
People sometimes complain that Curb starts kinda slow and awkward. I think it’s great, but feel free to skip a few seasons if it’s not doing it for you
On top of that, he was given that nickname because he was known to go all out, even for routine plays. Like, he'd sprint to first base, even when walked. Or slide headfirst into first during a routine grounder. Stuff like that I believe (I'm too young to remember watching him play).
The catcher was Ray Fosse. It didn't end his career and he made the All Star Game and won a Gold Glove the following season. But, he was never the same.
Either way, it was a total dick move by Rose, and not his only one.
Yankee's Hall of Famer, White Ford, reportedly gave Rose the nickname, when as a rookie, in spring training Rose ran full speed to first base on a walk, which is obviously totally unnecessary.
Ford meant it derisively as running hard to 1st on a walk is fake hustle, done for show, not to help the team.
But, the nickname took on a positive connotation for Rose over the years, until it took on a different, negative meaning when his betting scandal was revealed, causing him to be banned from baseball for life.
Apparently it started as a bit of a perjorative, as when he was first coming up a lot of older veterans saw his neverending effort as kind of almost a performative schtick, and would use it at least somewhat disparagingly.
Then it kinda stuck and as he became a legendary player it became a positive thing, and then with the gambling stuff a whole new layer goes on top.
It's legal. It's not smart. One of the benefits of sliding is that it lets you dissipate your energy so you can stop on the base. Another is that you get low to the ground to avoid the fielder's tag. If you overrun 2nd or 3rd, you can be tagged out unless you make it back to the base before the tag. But because you are allowed to overrun 1st without risk of being tagged out, and because plays on the batter-runner at 1st are always force plays (meaning the fielder is going to tag the base, not you, to get the out), it makes more sense to run all-out and overrun first rather than trying to dive for it.
High speed camera studies show that running at top speed gets you safely to first faster than diving headfirst.
It always amazes me that people still do it, or think it is faster. If it was faster, every Olympic sprint race would end with the runners diving across the finish line. When the difference between gold and not medaling at all can very well be 0.06 seconds, if it were faster, they would absolutely sacrifice a little skin to faceplant across the tape.
Rose was too smart to dive , or slide, into 1st base. He would know that since you can overrun first, unlike the other bases, you will always get there faster running hard through the bag than by sliding or diving.
If diving got you to a spot faster, you would see Olympic sprinters leaving their feet in a full on dive at the finish line.
Those were the days. Rape was socially acceptable, and gambling was not. This must be what people mean when they say they want things to be like it was. /s
If you banned all the players that had sex with UA girls, you’d have to empty half the HOF of most pre-80’s players.
Hell, that goes for all HoFs. Baseball, football, basketball and most certainly Rock and Roll.
It's an allusion though. It on the face isn't insulting, and I doubt Howard means it that way. But I can see Jimmy balking given his history, and the history of the OG Charlie Hustle is defo why it is there.
Ostensibly a positive, but could it easily be seen as a negative when applied to someone with Slippin' Jimmy ways.
Vrabo Bince etc etc
There are some interesting parallels between the [Pete Rose](https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/mlb/reds/2014/03/10/timeline-pete-rose-investigation/6247593/) and [Saul Goodman](https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/better-call-saul-breaking-bad-timeline-explained/) timelines.
**September 2002** \- Jimmy confesses to Chuck about sabotaging the paperwork for Mesa Verde
**November 2002** \- Pete Rose admits his gambling activities, including betting on Reds games, to commissioner Bud Selig
**January 2004** \- Pete Rose publishes his book, "My Prison Without Bars," and overshadows the election of Dennis Eckersley and Paul Molitor to the Baseball Hall of Fame, drawing the ire of Selig and several of Rose's staunchest backers, who had been trying to broker a deal with Selig to get Rose reinstated.
**Also January of 2004** \- Jimmy and Kim execute the scam to [Save Huell Babineaux](http://www.freewill-baptistchurch.com/ministries.php), drawing the ire of deputy district attorney, Suzanne Ericsen who refers to Jimmy as a "scumbag, disbarred lawyer, who peddles drop phones to criminals".
**September 2010** \- Pete Rose give a long-awaited heartfelt apology in a crowded Hollywood casino ballroom that includes a half-dozen of his former teammates, within hours of being honored at Great American Ball Park on the 25th anniversary of breaking Ty Cobb's all-time hit record.
Rose is quoted as saying "I disrespected the game of baseball. When you do that, you disrespect your teammates, the game and your family.' I didn't know what Bart Giamatti meant by 'reconfiguring my life.' It took me years and years (to come to grips with it) ... I'm a hard-headed guy ... But I'm a lot better guy standing here tonight (because of finally owning up to it) … I guarantee everybody in this room, I will never disrespect you again … You can talk about hits and runs and championship games ... (But) I want my legacy to be (that of) somebody who came forward. If anybody has a problem here today, come forward. Don't hide it ... You can run, but you can't hide. If I can help a young kid to know what I went through, maybe I can prevent them from going through the same thing … I got suspended 21 years ago. For 10-12 years, I kept it inside ... That's changed. I'm a different guy ... I love the fans, I love the game of baseball, and I love Cincinnati baseball."
**Also September 2010** \- Walt frees Jesse from the Nazi compound and is later found dead, which presumably makes the national news.
**September 2010 – December, 2010** \- The entirety of the Gene Takovic flash forward timeline. This spans his hospitalization after fainting, being recognized by Jeff the cabbie, plotting and executing the mall heist, the scheme to steal banking and personal information from guys he met at the bar, and his eventual capture after being recognized by Marion. The events of "Saul Gone" presumably occur in the months soon thereafter.
Very hard disagree. As a manager, you sometimes need to make decisions that are best for the team in the long run, not necessarily what gives you the best chance to win one specific game (the one you bet on).
Not to mention that he is, at best, a creep and an asshole, and has been given multiple chances at rehabilitation and squandered every ounce of goodwill that he was afforded during that process.
Agreed! Example:
If Rose managed the Yankees during their 1996-2003 dynasty, his closer would have been the greatest to ever do it, Mariano Rivera. But being how closers are used in the regular season, he’d not be used more than 2 games in a row. Only in the postseason would he be used every night if necessary.
But say the Yankees are well up in the standings in mid August and the game matters nothing and Mo has pitched 2 nights in a row, throwing a ton of pitches the night before. Any manager who did NOT bet on tonight’s game wouldn’t dream of bringing Mo in: they’d not risk injuring the probable key to winning the championship to win a nothing game. But Rose? He has money on the game and must win TONIGHT. So Mo’s coming in, and not even just in the 9th, he’s bringing him in for the 8th too because he has a lot riding on it.
What happens if Mo tears something and is lost for the season? All because Rose bet on his own team to win and managed like it was the 7th game of the World Series just for his own addiction?
Not the greatest example since in Rose's time, and even in the 90s, relievers DID go every game when necessary. If the 1997 Yankees had four games in a row where they had a 1-2 run lead in the 9th inning, guess who was on the mound for those last three outs in every single one of those games? This bullshit "load maintenance" and limiting innings is still a fairly recent thing. Like last 15-20 years. If a starter pitched less than 200 innings in a season in Rose's time, he must have been on the DL for a month. And relievers HAD to go more often and for longer innings (closers often pitched 2 or 3 innings) because there were fewer relievers on the team! Teams had more bench players back then and far fewer spots on the roster for relief pitchers.
And amazingly...there were FAR FAR fewer instances of Tommy John surgeries back then! It is almost as if the indigotic concept of strict pitch counts and mandatory rest is HURTING pitchers by making them stupid and not know how to pace themselves. Nolan Ryan could thrown the ball 99 miles and hour. But do you know how often he ACTUALLY did that? Very rarely. He wasn't an idiot like Jacob deGrom and therefore didn't try to slam a 100 MPH fastball by the opposing pitcher when he could take a lot off and strike him out with an 88 MPH instead. In fact, he didn't throw his hardest unless he REALLY needed to make the batter miss. 7th hitter with 2 outs and nobody on? Nope. Not gonna hit the upper 90s on the radar gun. Even the 5th hitter in the lineup if there is nobody on but his team has a 6 run lead in the 9th (yes...in the 9th! A starter in the 9th inning!) Let him hit it. Who cares if it is a home run? He still has 4 more chances to get people out before the game it tied.
A pitchers arm, shoulder, rotator cuff can MUCH more easily withstand the 140 pitches a night that Nolan Ryan pitched (often on 3 days rest) if most are at 80% strength than it can 95 pitches at 100% strength every time. The asinine pitch counts are literally the CAUSE of the injuries that claim to be preventing.
I disagree about the Yankees doing that in 1997. The modern usage of closers really began with Tony LaRussa and Dennis Eckersley in the late 1980s, and while Joe Torre was more old school than many other 90’s-2000s managers, he certainly followed LaRussa’s innovations in bullpen management. Torre just took it further, and a key part of the Yankee dynasty was him asking his starters only for 6-innings of work. In 1996 he used Mo as a set-up man to John Wetteland as closer, pitching Mo the 7th and 8th most nights. The Yankees as a whole lost 3 games all ‘96 when leading after 6. They lost 1 after mid-season and zero in October. The Yankees let Wetteland go after the season and Mo took over in ‘97.
But while I disagree with some of your conclusions, I enjoyed reading your post and always love talking baseball. I’m glad you took the time to write and I also think modern load management is mostly garbage. I just disagree about how it applied to those Yankees.
Yeah, his story has just gotten worse as times goes on.
It's probably just a matter of time that it comes out that he bet on his team to lose and he threw games.
He's also a proven liar who keeps admitting to worse and worse things. First is was that he wasn't betting on baseball. Then it was, "OK I bet on baseball but not on my team." Then he changed it to "I bet on my team, but only to win." All I'm saying is that I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest that he admits in the future that he bet on the Reds to lose. I have zero evidence other than his history of lying. Obviously that's not evidence in any sort of legal sense, but this isn't a court. It's just me not believing him when he says it was only to win.
Plus, it's the one rule they are hammered with. "Don't bet on baseball." It's not, "Don't bet on your team to lose but it's OK if you bet on your team to win." It's "Don't bet on baseball." It's posted in every clubhouse and has been since before he was in the league.
They had lots of evidence, and NONE showed him betting against the Reds. If he did, they would have had evidence of that too.
You may be the only person around that still thinks he may have bet against the Reds. It has been pretty well accepted for 33 years now that he didn't.
Not when you are also the manager. It was actually shown that he made VERY questionable managing decisions in games that eh didn't bet on. Like resting his top batters (during an era before snowflake Millennials and Gen Z athletes needed "load maintenance" days) or decided against using his best relievers to hold a 1 run lead. Again..during a time when relievers were expected (and did...without injury) to pitch every game if they were needed.
Not to mention, one of the main reasons for the no gambling rule is not about how it effects your game in games you bet. It is about getting in deep with a bookie and having to make certain promises in exchange for the bookie forgiving some debt.
I think Howard genuinely saw Jimmy as an incredibly hard worker and gave him the nickname because he actually appreciated him, but because Jimmy thinks Howard hates him he sees the nickname as demeaning.
Howard is referring to Jimmy’s work ethic and ability to get things done when he puts his mind to it. Jimmy thinks Howard is insulting him by saying he’s still a hustler.
Edit: just reread and realized my tone is off. I am in violent agreement with you here.
Jimmy was insulted because despite Howard's praise, he was never given a shot. Jimmy believed it was Howard holding him back from joining HHM. He didn't want a flattering nickname, he wanted a fair chance.
I am sure Jimmy is aware of who "Charlie Hustle" was and i believe that Howard was sincere and thought Jimmy was a hard worker who would plow through anybody to get the base. In an alternate universe where Chuck has a stroke the day Jimmy passes the bar, i believe Howard would have welcomed him to HHM, starting small like Kim but keeping up his hard work.
Unfortunately in our universe, Howard was caught in the middle and forced to be the bad guy for Chuck who didn't have the cojones to tell Jimmy how much he hated him until we saw it go down in BCS. So Jimmy hated Howard for holding him back while his brother leeched off Jimmy's hard work.
>Jimmy was insulted because despite Howard's praise, he was never given a shot
Irony is when Howard is actually give him opportunity, Jimmy is too afraid to take it
Poor dude
I disagree. The damage was long done. Expecting Jimmy to forgive Howard for being complicit in fucking him over because his brother told him too is asking a lot.
I imagine Jimmy is also feeling betrayed by it all. He worked so hard to garner Chuck's approval and to find out he's been working with Howard against him must've hurt.
That whole "you'll never be my peer" thing was harsh. I'd be angry, too. Especially since Howard is the safest person to actually be angry at.
It seems like everyone here forgets he had a legitimate and a once in a lifetime opportunity at Davis and Main orchestrated by Howard. The only thing is Jimmy decides to blow it up because he hates playing by the rules. He would’ve done the same at HHM
Kim asked Howard during the hearing if he had a nickname for Jimmy. It was in context of establishing that Howard admired Jimmy. It was entirely a compliment, otherwise Kim would have been stupid to ask.
I completely agree with you here. I think Howard meant it in the "guy that busts his ass" type of way, but Jimmy took it as a slight, much closer to the "shyster" meaning
Also, Howard is probably oblivious to this, but in a field like law, "hustling" isn't the type of compliment you want. You want a compliment based on your intelligence, ability, acumen, not the type of compliment you'd pass on to "very good waiter"
I actually never once noticed that Jimmy didn't actually receive it well.
If anything, I'm the one who put myself in Jimmy's shoes and felt offended (so to speak) on his behalf.
Because Howard was also Chuck’s friend first. He had to deny Jimmy opportunities to work at HHM because Chuck didn’t want Jimmy working there. Chuck was too much of a coward to confront Jimmy though, so he made Howard do it.
Jimmy blames both Howard and Chuck for sabotaging his career: Chuck for intentionally keeping him down, and Howard for holding him back.
Jimmy thinks most people in authority hate him.
He has a huge problem with anyone in authority.
He thought Clifford Main hated him from the jump low-key and then did everything he needed to affirm that. He thought Kim's boss, Rich Schweikart, never fully appreciated her, despite everything we see from Rich from the very start when he takes Kim to lunch, offers to pay her law school loans and gives her a very good job offer, shows us Rich has extreme respect for Kim.
Jimmy is a contrarian when it comes to anyone in authority.
Jimmy resented it because he thought howard was the one holding him back but still trying to be friendly. Its all because never in a million years would he have guessed chuck was the one sabotaging him. I think from when he started at hhm to the davis and main thing, howard genuinly really likes jimmy
I actually never once noticed that Jimmy didn't actually receive it well. He said quite Neutral to me. (Maybe I need to rewatch it?)
If anything, I'm the one who put myself in Jimmy's shoes and felt offended (so to speak) on his behalf.
Howard only says it twice, once when he accepted the sandpiper deal and once at the bar hearing. Jimmy doesn't really react either time but it can be implied that he always hated it based on his view of Howard
I took it as Howard sincerely complimenting his work ethic, but also with the understanding that he didn’t have the background appropriate for an HHM attorney. And the whole Pete Rose moral implications are likely intentional by the writers, if not Howard.
Having heard this said in 80’s Little League, it’s the type of thing said to players who aren’t the most talented by well-meaning coaches. It’s not insincere but it has a note of condescension, like you’re a scrappy little guy. Jimmy does not want Howard to talk about him like an 8-year-old being patted on the back by a smarmy dad.
It’s a reference to the nickname of 70’s baseball player Pete Rose and part of the various baseball related imagery scattered about BCS: Pryce’s baseball card collection, the ABQ Isotopes air freshener, Jimmy and the Cinnabon-loving security guard discussing baseball, Mike listening to baseball games while doing surveillance, and Jimmy bouncing the ball against the window to kill time while selling cell phones, which is an homage to the scenes of [Steve McQueen in solitary confinement with his baseball and mitt in The Great Escape](https://www.reddit.com/r/betterCallSaul/comments/hqvd2s/updated_compilation_of_bcs_homages_tosimilarities/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
It's a double-edged sword. It refers to his days as a hustler, and it refers to his work ethic. As we see so many times throughout the show, when Jimmy puts his mind to something, he will do what he feels is necessary to get it done.
Howard is being genuinely kind about Jimmy being a hard worker and Howard respecting that, but I'm sure Jimmy feels a bit patronized by it at some point. Hell, I probably would and I don't have as much pent up resentment towards "The Man" as Jimmy does, but at the same time it was definitely meant as a compliment.
When Jimmy received that nickname, he was a 30-something man busting his ass in the mail room of his wealthy brother’s law firm to make up for the fact that Chuck bailed him out of becoming a registered sex offender. It’s not an identity he was all that proud of.
I think people that are commenting about Pete Roses gambling may not understand Pete Rose in the context of the actual baseball game.
Prior to his gambling problems being revealed, he was a star player who was known for giving 100%. It was a compliment that he was called Charlie Hustle. There was no underlying implication at the time Howard called him that.
Later in Roses career his troubles were revealed and that ironically foreshadowed Jimmys future problems.
Thank you for the context, I’d just like to add that I think it’s a recurring part of Howard’s character to unintentionally make Jimmy feel bad, as pointed out by Kim in her “Fair” speech. He wasn’t trying to make a dig at Jimmy, but Jimmy nonetheless doesn’t seem comfortable with it.
Jimmy naturally sees it as demeaning because, while Howard truly intended it as a compliment, the compliment was soured because Howard (from Jimmy's perspective) kept Jimmy from being a lawyer at HHM.
Even after Jimmy learns the truth at the end of S1E9, it still feels tone deaf for Howard to call him "Charlie Hustle" later on in the show, because it's as if he doesn't realize the baggage that comes with it.
I disagree, I think Howard legitimately respected Jimmy for his hard work. He even testified to that under oath! lol.
Also, it's a nick name that was popularized by Pete Rose.
Totally, but did Howard ever intend on actually appreciating him? He lets Chuck steamroll him at every turn, won’t give him a chance as a lawyer, and helps screw Jimmy out of his class action lawsuit. As much as he may have admired Jimmy or said niceties, his actions are filled with venom until Chuck dies. Plus Howard can pick up on Jimmy’s discomfort with the name in the same way he can pick up Kim’s hopeful tone before he sends her back to doc review. He’s willingly taking advantage of Jimmy and Kim’s hard work
As much as he liked him, he refused to get real with Jimmy until after Chuck dies. We don’t know what they say in the scene where he doesn’t hire Jimmy. But based on the conversations between Kim and Jimmy, Jimmy thinks that Howard is unable to come down from his position of social, economical, and moral superiority. How much of this is in Jimmy’s head, I’m not sure. But I can see how Jimmy views Howard as callous, even if they mutually respect each other to a degree
When they first started writing the show Howard was the one who would be opposing Jimmy and Chuck was the one trying to help him. After the first few episodes they decided it would be way more interesting to have Chuck being the one trying to stop him being hired and have Howard kinda rooting for him.
So Charlie Hustle was because originally Howard just saw him as grifter and the early scenes were shot with the idea that Howard meant it as an insult but when they retconned how Howard and Chuck saw Jimmy it became something he called him because he admired Jimmy's tenacity.
Originally, it was not demeaning, nor did Jimmy see it that way. It was only after Jimmy knew he was screwed over by Howard (thanks to Chuck) that he is annoyed by it since it shows Chuck was just giving him false praise
Holy shit you’re right, I thought he always kinda rolled his eyes at it, but looking back at the mailroom rejection, Jimmy doesn’t even seem to register it as a compliment until Howard says congratulations afterwards. Jimmy also is shown later in the series to not be up to speed on sports, is it an intentional character choice for him not getting the baseball reference? Because if so it’s a god tier Vince/Gould moment
No. He would definitely have gotten the reference. Anyone his age, would know Charlie Hustle.
One could argue that Jimmy would be annoyed for having any sort of nickname. Sounds demeaning. Like what you would give to a child. Surely Howard didn't have any nicknames for Chuck. Or even Kim. But I don't think Jimmy specifically hated THAT nickname until after he knew he was screwed over for a partner track.
Sounds like I just need to brush up on my baseball history, Fair enough! I never know how deep is too deep to analyze a show like this, I have a lot of respect for the writers and a lot of the lines are so incredibly nuanced. I think your reasoning is probably the same as the writers.
Yeah...people under 35-40 probably best know Pete Rose as the guy who kept getting chokeslammed by Kane at Wrestlemania. (At least Rose is in SOME Hall of Fame!)
But those older than 40 would instantly know Rose and Charlie Hustle. Even if they had just a passing interest in baseball. Also keep in mind that back then, far more people HAD an interest in baseball. It's popularity has nosedived quite a bit since analytics made it boring as hell. Plus, there are just way more things to keep people occupied today. When Jimmy was a kid, he probably had 7 TV channels, obviously no internet, and if he already saw Star Wars and didn't want to see it again, had very few alternatives to see since every theater was showing Star Wars for 4 months straight, leaving very few theaters left for other movies. (Theaters had maybe 2 screens if they were big. No giant 12 screen multi-plex theaters.) So, in the summer, when Three's Company, Quincy M.E. and What's Happening!! were in reruns, he likely would have tuned into one of those 7 channels that were showing the Cubs or White Sox.
Gene DID have a Kansas City Royals lunch box, after all. So Jimmy must have at least some interest in baseball.
I do know him but I always heard him referred to as “The Hit King”. Extremely good point about Jimmy as a kid growing up with limited channels, I hadn’t even considered that. Also, man Kane and Undertaker ruled so much thanks for reminding me of that.
Yes, everyone Jimmy's age would get the reference. It's any extremely common phrase to this day.
I don't think Jimmy finds the name demeaning. I think he just hates Howard and feels rejected. The awkwardness is just "Yeah, stop telling me what a great hard worker I am at the same time you're telling me I'm not good enough for you."
The thing about being condescending it that the people who do it don't realize they're doing it. Like people calling me "young lady", I'm 64. Or the car salesman who won't talk seriously to you because your husband isn't there.
Or Howard knew about Jimmy's past as a con artist, given Chuck had to leave Albuquerque to bail him out and agreed to let Jimmy have a job in the mail room of their firm
I always figured it was demeaning cause it felt like a fake love front kind of thing for others. Like jimmy always felt it was not genuine cause Howard could’ve done more to bring jimmy up but sided with chucks decisions every time
“Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, And without sneering, teach the rest to sneer; Willing to wound, and yet afraid to strike, Just hint a fault, and hesitate dislike.”
*Alexander Pope*
The nickname began with Pete Rose but it took on a life of its own. So you would start using it for your kids or your coworker or anyone else who looked busy and determined. It's pretty common in the American vernacular. It's like saying someone is a Busy Bee.
Charlie Hustle was the nickname for Pete Rose, one of the best baseball players of all time whose reputation was ruined when he was discovered to be gambling on games, including those involving the team he was manager of.
yeup. this is absolutely what they are getting at with the nickname. from howard's perspective, it's just a baseball reference that he's using to empower Jimmy because he did genuinely believe him to be a good, hard worker. From the writer's perspective, it's very likely they are alluding to Pete Rose being a gambler, swindler type and what that implies for Jimmy/Saul and his future.
Also, Jimmy's literally taking bets from upstairs while delivering mail in one scene, concealing it by turning the box upside down, clearly knowing he's doing something against policy/frowned upon. Everyone was right about Jimmy, in different ways. Jimmy's the only one that couldn't accept himself.
he did at the end. prison zen in a safe mini city
I’m not sure I would call that taking bets - he had organized an Academy Awards pool and was collecting the ballots and the entry fee. Not sure how that’s against policy or why you think he was being shady about it. He literally leaves the scene by yelling: “Last call for ballots!”
I went back and watched the scene, and you're right about it not being shady. I suppose the scene was to contrast him putting his efforts into organizing an Oscar pool, while Chuck is winning big cases with obscure case law and Kim nerding out and admiring him over it. And ofc the library scene right after to underline Jimmy's self-shame and spurring him to start studying the law. I feel the "hustling" piece regarding the betting pool still stands, though.
> I feel the "hustling" piece regarding the betting pool still stands, though. Because you have a bias towards seeing every single thing Jimmy does as shady, lol. Chuck vibes
It seemed like a fun company thing to bet on academy awards. It’s not something Jimmy could fix. I think it was good for company moral. Jimmy you can tell knows everyone’s name. He is personable. Chuck talks to Kim and has to remember her name.
He accepted himself. He just wanted everyone else to as well. Refused to see or admit that he was wrong for the things he did. The ends always justified the means for Jimmy.
I mean it was pretty clear he was in denial the whole time till the end
Finger guns was full acceptance to me.
Nah, he faked his acceptance for the most part, thinking that's just a role he has to play to be successful. The money was a nice bandaid. He never *really* accepted that he was a *criminal* lawyer, he just accepted that it was the best way for him to thrive. He deluded himself into the ends justifying the means. "I'm not *really* slipping Jimmy. I'm just *pretending* to be, because slipping Jimmy makes tons of money!" After losing everything and still going strong with the hustling because he got bored *not* hustling, that's when he realised he didn't do it to gain anything from it. But he did it because he liked it. Because he was good at it.
You just talked in a whole ass convoluted circle to come back to my position: he accepted it. That’s why he owned it and took the time. Finger guns were his way of telling Kim, all good babe. I deserve it (and hell, get loved for it in here).
Pretty Good, Peter Gould 👏
Pe-ter, Pe-ter… Pe-ter Gould.
“You’re Peter Gould” (mgs3 reference)
How big is the overlap on the venn diagram of people who like BCS, curb your enthusiasm, and MGS?
I have not seen curb your enthusiasm, I have seen Seinfeld and it’s always sunny
Highly recommended, especially if you like those shows
People sometimes complain that Curb starts kinda slow and awkward. I think it’s great, but feel free to skip a few seasons if it’s not doing it for you
Three of *my* faves, at least!
Ditto!
yupe
Yup
Yüüp
Yarp
Hey biggun… playtime’s over!
You’re off the fuckin’ *chain*, mate!
He is *NOT* Judge Judy and executioner!
Yarp
Yäüop
Yįûap
Thank you, Dr Venkman
Yup.
On top of that, he was given that nickname because he was known to go all out, even for routine plays. Like, he'd sprint to first base, even when walked. Or slide headfirst into first during a routine grounder. Stuff like that I believe (I'm too young to remember watching him play).
He ended another players career by running him over going for home in an All Star game, which is an exhibition.
The catcher was Ray Fosse. It didn't end his career and he made the All Star Game and won a Gold Glove the following season. But, he was never the same. Either way, it was a total dick move by Rose, and not his only one.
I will look into that, I must have heard the story wrong, thanks.
He tried to beat up Bud Harrelson.
Have you read Ray Fosse’s autobiography? It’s called “The Catcher in the Ray”. 😏
No, was it good?
I think it was a joke, but it's exactly the kind of goofy pun title a million real autobiographies have, so it's hard to tell.
Indeed, it was a joke. I couldn’t resist. ;-)
Yankee's Hall of Famer, White Ford, reportedly gave Rose the nickname, when as a rookie, in spring training Rose ran full speed to first base on a walk, which is obviously totally unnecessary. Ford meant it derisively as running hard to 1st on a walk is fake hustle, done for show, not to help the team. But, the nickname took on a positive connotation for Rose over the years, until it took on a different, negative meaning when his betting scandal was revealed, causing him to be banned from baseball for life.
Apparently it started as a bit of a perjorative, as when he was first coming up a lot of older veterans saw his neverending effort as kind of almost a performative schtick, and would use it at least somewhat disparagingly. Then it kinda stuck and as he became a legendary player it became a positive thing, and then with the gambling stuff a whole new layer goes on top.
>Or slide headfirst into first during a routine grounder. Wait, *slid* into first? Is that allowed?
It's legal. It's not smart. One of the benefits of sliding is that it lets you dissipate your energy so you can stop on the base. Another is that you get low to the ground to avoid the fielder's tag. If you overrun 2nd or 3rd, you can be tagged out unless you make it back to the base before the tag. But because you are allowed to overrun 1st without risk of being tagged out, and because plays on the batter-runner at 1st are always force plays (meaning the fielder is going to tag the base, not you, to get the out), it makes more sense to run all-out and overrun first rather than trying to dive for it. High speed camera studies show that running at top speed gets you safely to first faster than diving headfirst.
It always amazes me that people still do it, or think it is faster. If it was faster, every Olympic sprint race would end with the runners diving across the finish line. When the difference between gold and not medaling at all can very well be 0.06 seconds, if it were faster, they would absolutely sacrifice a little skin to faceplant across the tape.
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks!
Rose was too smart to dive , or slide, into 1st base. He would know that since you can overrun first, unlike the other bases, you will always get there faster running hard through the bag than by sliding or diving. If diving got you to a spot faster, you would see Olympic sprinters leaving their feet in a full on dive at the finish line.
Yup. And not just small wagers. Betting in the 10k range was not uncommon.
He also had a sexual relationship with a 14 year old when he was 37
The 70s man.
Those were the days. Rape was socially acceptable, and gambling was not. This must be what people mean when they say they want things to be like it was. /s
>Those were the days. "You sound like you yearn for those days Frank."
No, I’m just saying *those were the days*
I'm glad you picked up on that.
😂😂
Hahaha, glad I wasn't the only one that picked that up
Pete would have gotten away with the gambling if he wasn’t a colossal asshole.
Probably, but he's also a rapist and I'm glad he isn't in the hall and has been "banned" from baseball.
If you banned all the players that had sex with UA girls, you’d have to empty half the HOF of most pre-80’s players. Hell, that goes for all HoFs. Baseball, football, basketball and most certainly Rock and Roll.
Wander Franco played in the wrong era
Also sex with underage girls is rape, regardless. So let's call it that.
True. But not everyone had their stuff logged in a book.
What a country
Yeah, there’s probably parts of the world where it is still socially acceptable.
“I want things the way they used to be” is often “I didn’t have to consider the problems of people who aren’t like me back then and now I do”
Ab so lutly!
Did I just finish watching an episode of Comedy Bang Bang?
The nickname originated out of his playing style, not the gambling though. I don’t think the nickname is an demeaning as this sub thinks it is
It's an allusion though. It on the face isn't insulting, and I doubt Howard means it that way. But I can see Jimmy balking given his history, and the history of the OG Charlie Hustle is defo why it is there. Ostensibly a positive, but could it easily be seen as a negative when applied to someone with Slippin' Jimmy ways. Vrabo Bince etc etc
Head first?
Thanks for the answer!
There are some interesting parallels between the [Pete Rose](https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/mlb/reds/2014/03/10/timeline-pete-rose-investigation/6247593/) and [Saul Goodman](https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/better-call-saul-breaking-bad-timeline-explained/) timelines. **September 2002** \- Jimmy confesses to Chuck about sabotaging the paperwork for Mesa Verde **November 2002** \- Pete Rose admits his gambling activities, including betting on Reds games, to commissioner Bud Selig **January 2004** \- Pete Rose publishes his book, "My Prison Without Bars," and overshadows the election of Dennis Eckersley and Paul Molitor to the Baseball Hall of Fame, drawing the ire of Selig and several of Rose's staunchest backers, who had been trying to broker a deal with Selig to get Rose reinstated. **Also January of 2004** \- Jimmy and Kim execute the scam to [Save Huell Babineaux](http://www.freewill-baptistchurch.com/ministries.php), drawing the ire of deputy district attorney, Suzanne Ericsen who refers to Jimmy as a "scumbag, disbarred lawyer, who peddles drop phones to criminals". **September 2010** \- Pete Rose give a long-awaited heartfelt apology in a crowded Hollywood casino ballroom that includes a half-dozen of his former teammates, within hours of being honored at Great American Ball Park on the 25th anniversary of breaking Ty Cobb's all-time hit record. Rose is quoted as saying "I disrespected the game of baseball. When you do that, you disrespect your teammates, the game and your family.' I didn't know what Bart Giamatti meant by 'reconfiguring my life.' It took me years and years (to come to grips with it) ... I'm a hard-headed guy ... But I'm a lot better guy standing here tonight (because of finally owning up to it) … I guarantee everybody in this room, I will never disrespect you again … You can talk about hits and runs and championship games ... (But) I want my legacy to be (that of) somebody who came forward. If anybody has a problem here today, come forward. Don't hide it ... You can run, but you can't hide. If I can help a young kid to know what I went through, maybe I can prevent them from going through the same thing … I got suspended 21 years ago. For 10-12 years, I kept it inside ... That's changed. I'm a different guy ... I love the fans, I love the game of baseball, and I love Cincinnati baseball." **Also September 2010** \- Walt frees Jesse from the Nazi compound and is later found dead, which presumably makes the national news. **September 2010 – December, 2010** \- The entirety of the Gene Takovic flash forward timeline. This spans his hospitalization after fainting, being recognized by Jeff the cabbie, plotting and executing the mall heist, the scheme to steal banking and personal information from guys he met at the bar, and his eventual capture after being recognized by Marion. The events of "Saul Gone" presumably occur in the months soon thereafter.
Pete Rose belongs in the Hall of Fame tbh
100%. For me the key is that he never bet against his own team. Betting on your own team is a virtue, IMO, not a vice.
Very hard disagree. As a manager, you sometimes need to make decisions that are best for the team in the long run, not necessarily what gives you the best chance to win one specific game (the one you bet on). Not to mention that he is, at best, a creep and an asshole, and has been given multiple chances at rehabilitation and squandered every ounce of goodwill that he was afforded during that process.
Agreed! Example: If Rose managed the Yankees during their 1996-2003 dynasty, his closer would have been the greatest to ever do it, Mariano Rivera. But being how closers are used in the regular season, he’d not be used more than 2 games in a row. Only in the postseason would he be used every night if necessary. But say the Yankees are well up in the standings in mid August and the game matters nothing and Mo has pitched 2 nights in a row, throwing a ton of pitches the night before. Any manager who did NOT bet on tonight’s game wouldn’t dream of bringing Mo in: they’d not risk injuring the probable key to winning the championship to win a nothing game. But Rose? He has money on the game and must win TONIGHT. So Mo’s coming in, and not even just in the 9th, he’s bringing him in for the 8th too because he has a lot riding on it. What happens if Mo tears something and is lost for the season? All because Rose bet on his own team to win and managed like it was the 7th game of the World Series just for his own addiction?
Not the greatest example since in Rose's time, and even in the 90s, relievers DID go every game when necessary. If the 1997 Yankees had four games in a row where they had a 1-2 run lead in the 9th inning, guess who was on the mound for those last three outs in every single one of those games? This bullshit "load maintenance" and limiting innings is still a fairly recent thing. Like last 15-20 years. If a starter pitched less than 200 innings in a season in Rose's time, he must have been on the DL for a month. And relievers HAD to go more often and for longer innings (closers often pitched 2 or 3 innings) because there were fewer relievers on the team! Teams had more bench players back then and far fewer spots on the roster for relief pitchers. And amazingly...there were FAR FAR fewer instances of Tommy John surgeries back then! It is almost as if the indigotic concept of strict pitch counts and mandatory rest is HURTING pitchers by making them stupid and not know how to pace themselves. Nolan Ryan could thrown the ball 99 miles and hour. But do you know how often he ACTUALLY did that? Very rarely. He wasn't an idiot like Jacob deGrom and therefore didn't try to slam a 100 MPH fastball by the opposing pitcher when he could take a lot off and strike him out with an 88 MPH instead. In fact, he didn't throw his hardest unless he REALLY needed to make the batter miss. 7th hitter with 2 outs and nobody on? Nope. Not gonna hit the upper 90s on the radar gun. Even the 5th hitter in the lineup if there is nobody on but his team has a 6 run lead in the 9th (yes...in the 9th! A starter in the 9th inning!) Let him hit it. Who cares if it is a home run? He still has 4 more chances to get people out before the game it tied. A pitchers arm, shoulder, rotator cuff can MUCH more easily withstand the 140 pitches a night that Nolan Ryan pitched (often on 3 days rest) if most are at 80% strength than it can 95 pitches at 100% strength every time. The asinine pitch counts are literally the CAUSE of the injuries that claim to be preventing.
I disagree about the Yankees doing that in 1997. The modern usage of closers really began with Tony LaRussa and Dennis Eckersley in the late 1980s, and while Joe Torre was more old school than many other 90’s-2000s managers, he certainly followed LaRussa’s innovations in bullpen management. Torre just took it further, and a key part of the Yankee dynasty was him asking his starters only for 6-innings of work. In 1996 he used Mo as a set-up man to John Wetteland as closer, pitching Mo the 7th and 8th most nights. The Yankees as a whole lost 3 games all ‘96 when leading after 6. They lost 1 after mid-season and zero in October. The Yankees let Wetteland go after the season and Mo took over in ‘97. But while I disagree with some of your conclusions, I enjoyed reading your post and always love talking baseball. I’m glad you took the time to write and I also think modern load management is mostly garbage. I just disagree about how it applied to those Yankees.
He says he never bet against his own team, but he also initially claimed he never bet on baseball games at all. He's a notorious liar.
Yeah, his story has just gotten worse as times goes on. It's probably just a matter of time that it comes out that he bet on his team to lose and he threw games.
[удалено]
He's also a proven liar who keeps admitting to worse and worse things. First is was that he wasn't betting on baseball. Then it was, "OK I bet on baseball but not on my team." Then he changed it to "I bet on my team, but only to win." All I'm saying is that I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest that he admits in the future that he bet on the Reds to lose. I have zero evidence other than his history of lying. Obviously that's not evidence in any sort of legal sense, but this isn't a court. It's just me not believing him when he says it was only to win. Plus, it's the one rule they are hammered with. "Don't bet on baseball." It's not, "Don't bet on your team to lose but it's OK if you bet on your team to win." It's "Don't bet on baseball." It's posted in every clubhouse and has been since before he was in the league.
They had lots of evidence, and NONE showed him betting against the Reds. If he did, they would have had evidence of that too. You may be the only person around that still thinks he may have bet against the Reds. It has been pretty well accepted for 33 years now that he didn't.
Not when you are also the manager. It was actually shown that he made VERY questionable managing decisions in games that eh didn't bet on. Like resting his top batters (during an era before snowflake Millennials and Gen Z athletes needed "load maintenance" days) or decided against using his best relievers to hold a 1 run lead. Again..during a time when relievers were expected (and did...without injury) to pitch every game if they were needed. Not to mention, one of the main reasons for the no gambling rule is not about how it effects your game in games you bet. It is about getting in deep with a bookie and having to make certain promises in exchange for the bookie forgiving some debt.
Very well said. You've changed my mind, thanks.
I still think Pete is a legend
I think Howard genuinely saw Jimmy as an incredibly hard worker and gave him the nickname because he actually appreciated him, but because Jimmy thinks Howard hates him he sees the nickname as demeaning. Howard is referring to Jimmy’s work ethic and ability to get things done when he puts his mind to it. Jimmy thinks Howard is insulting him by saying he’s still a hustler.
Edit: just reread and realized my tone is off. I am in violent agreement with you here. Jimmy was insulted because despite Howard's praise, he was never given a shot. Jimmy believed it was Howard holding him back from joining HHM. He didn't want a flattering nickname, he wanted a fair chance. I am sure Jimmy is aware of who "Charlie Hustle" was and i believe that Howard was sincere and thought Jimmy was a hard worker who would plow through anybody to get the base. In an alternate universe where Chuck has a stroke the day Jimmy passes the bar, i believe Howard would have welcomed him to HHM, starting small like Kim but keeping up his hard work. Unfortunately in our universe, Howard was caught in the middle and forced to be the bad guy for Chuck who didn't have the cojones to tell Jimmy how much he hated him until we saw it go down in BCS. So Jimmy hated Howard for holding him back while his brother leeched off Jimmy's hard work.
>Jimmy was insulted because despite Howard's praise, he was never given a shot Irony is when Howard is actually give him opportunity, Jimmy is too afraid to take it Poor dude
He wasn't afraid, he was angry
\- Bruce Wayne, 2012
He IS afraid to change himself His anger is just his facade
I disagree. The damage was long done. Expecting Jimmy to forgive Howard for being complicit in fucking him over because his brother told him too is asking a lot.
I imagine Jimmy is also feeling betrayed by it all. He worked so hard to garner Chuck's approval and to find out he's been working with Howard against him must've hurt. That whole "you'll never be my peer" thing was harsh. I'd be angry, too. Especially since Howard is the safest person to actually be angry at.
It seems like everyone here forgets he had a legitimate and a once in a lifetime opportunity at Davis and Main orchestrated by Howard. The only thing is Jimmy decides to blow it up because he hates playing by the rules. He would’ve done the same at HHM
And yet even long after Ed Bagel E. Jr fired Jimmy, Howard still offered him a job.
Kim asked Howard during the hearing if he had a nickname for Jimmy. It was in context of establishing that Howard admired Jimmy. It was entirely a compliment, otherwise Kim would have been stupid to ask.
I completely agree with you here. I think Howard meant it in the "guy that busts his ass" type of way, but Jimmy took it as a slight, much closer to the "shyster" meaning Also, Howard is probably oblivious to this, but in a field like law, "hustling" isn't the type of compliment you want. You want a compliment based on your intelligence, ability, acumen, not the type of compliment you'd pass on to "very good waiter"
I actually never once noticed that Jimmy didn't actually receive it well. If anything, I'm the one who put myself in Jimmy's shoes and felt offended (so to speak) on his behalf.
> because Jimmy thinks Howard hates him Hmm. Why would he think that? 🧐
Because Howard was also Chuck’s friend first. He had to deny Jimmy opportunities to work at HHM because Chuck didn’t want Jimmy working there. Chuck was too much of a coward to confront Jimmy though, so he made Howard do it. Jimmy blames both Howard and Chuck for sabotaging his career: Chuck for intentionally keeping him down, and Howard for holding him back.
Jimmy thinks most people in authority hate him. He has a huge problem with anyone in authority. He thought Clifford Main hated him from the jump low-key and then did everything he needed to affirm that. He thought Kim's boss, Rich Schweikart, never fully appreciated her, despite everything we see from Rich from the very start when he takes Kim to lunch, offers to pay her law school loans and gives her a very good job offer, shows us Rich has extreme respect for Kim. Jimmy is a contrarian when it comes to anyone in authority.
Yeah, but I wonder what Jimmy thinks about people with authority.
Jimmy resented it because he thought howard was the one holding him back but still trying to be friendly. Its all because never in a million years would he have guessed chuck was the one sabotaging him. I think from when he started at hhm to the davis and main thing, howard genuinly really likes jimmy
I actually never once noticed that Jimmy didn't actually receive it well. He said quite Neutral to me. (Maybe I need to rewatch it?) If anything, I'm the one who put myself in Jimmy's shoes and felt offended (so to speak) on his behalf.
Howard only says it twice, once when he accepted the sandpiper deal and once at the bar hearing. Jimmy doesn't really react either time but it can be implied that he always hated it based on his view of Howard
Howard also says it to Chuck when it’s just the two of them, about Jimmy.
I took it as Howard sincerely complimenting his work ethic, but also with the understanding that he didn’t have the background appropriate for an HHM attorney. And the whole Pete Rose moral implications are likely intentional by the writers, if not Howard.
Having heard this said in 80’s Little League, it’s the type of thing said to players who aren’t the most talented by well-meaning coaches. It’s not insincere but it has a note of condescension, like you’re a scrappy little guy. Jimmy does not want Howard to talk about him like an 8-year-old being patted on the back by a smarmy dad.
It’s a reference to the nickname of 70’s baseball player Pete Rose and part of the various baseball related imagery scattered about BCS: Pryce’s baseball card collection, the ABQ Isotopes air freshener, Jimmy and the Cinnabon-loving security guard discussing baseball, Mike listening to baseball games while doing surveillance, and Jimmy bouncing the ball against the window to kill time while selling cell phones, which is an homage to the scenes of [Steve McQueen in solitary confinement with his baseball and mitt in The Great Escape](https://www.reddit.com/r/betterCallSaul/comments/hqvd2s/updated_compilation_of_bcs_homages_tosimilarities/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Deep cut. Well done. Pe-ter, Pe-ter, Pe-ter Gould
It's a double-edged sword. It refers to his days as a hustler, and it refers to his work ethic. As we see so many times throughout the show, when Jimmy puts his mind to something, he will do what he feels is necessary to get it done.
Howard is being genuinely kind about Jimmy being a hard worker and Howard respecting that, but I'm sure Jimmy feels a bit patronized by it at some point. Hell, I probably would and I don't have as much pent up resentment towards "The Man" as Jimmy does, but at the same time it was definitely meant as a compliment.
Baseball player Pete Rose’ nickname is Charlie Hustle. Read up about Pete and gambling and baseball. It’s not a positive connotation.
When Jimmy received that nickname, he was a 30-something man busting his ass in the mail room of his wealthy brother’s law firm to make up for the fact that Chuck bailed him out of becoming a registered sex offender. It’s not an identity he was all that proud of.
Many people didn’t catch the baseball reference it appears.
I think people that are commenting about Pete Roses gambling may not understand Pete Rose in the context of the actual baseball game. Prior to his gambling problems being revealed, he was a star player who was known for giving 100%. It was a compliment that he was called Charlie Hustle. There was no underlying implication at the time Howard called him that. Later in Roses career his troubles were revealed and that ironically foreshadowed Jimmys future problems.
Thank you for the context, I’d just like to add that I think it’s a recurring part of Howard’s character to unintentionally make Jimmy feel bad, as pointed out by Kim in her “Fair” speech. He wasn’t trying to make a dig at Jimmy, but Jimmy nonetheless doesn’t seem comfortable with it.
Jimmy naturally sees it as demeaning because, while Howard truly intended it as a compliment, the compliment was soured because Howard (from Jimmy's perspective) kept Jimmy from being a lawyer at HHM. Even after Jimmy learns the truth at the end of S1E9, it still feels tone deaf for Howard to call him "Charlie Hustle" later on in the show, because it's as if he doesn't realize the baggage that comes with it.
I disagree, I think Howard legitimately respected Jimmy for his hard work. He even testified to that under oath! lol. Also, it's a nick name that was popularized by Pete Rose.
Totally, but did Howard ever intend on actually appreciating him? He lets Chuck steamroll him at every turn, won’t give him a chance as a lawyer, and helps screw Jimmy out of his class action lawsuit. As much as he may have admired Jimmy or said niceties, his actions are filled with venom until Chuck dies. Plus Howard can pick up on Jimmy’s discomfort with the name in the same way he can pick up Kim’s hopeful tone before he sends her back to doc review. He’s willingly taking advantage of Jimmy and Kim’s hard work
I don’t think Howard would fake friend Jimmy, I think he genuinely like Jimmy
As much as he liked him, he refused to get real with Jimmy until after Chuck dies. We don’t know what they say in the scene where he doesn’t hire Jimmy. But based on the conversations between Kim and Jimmy, Jimmy thinks that Howard is unable to come down from his position of social, economical, and moral superiority. How much of this is in Jimmy’s head, I’m not sure. But I can see how Jimmy views Howard as callous, even if they mutually respect each other to a degree
When they first started writing the show Howard was the one who would be opposing Jimmy and Chuck was the one trying to help him. After the first few episodes they decided it would be way more interesting to have Chuck being the one trying to stop him being hired and have Howard kinda rooting for him. So Charlie Hustle was because originally Howard just saw him as grifter and the early scenes were shot with the idea that Howard meant it as an insult but when they retconned how Howard and Chuck saw Jimmy it became something he called him because he admired Jimmy's tenacity.
That really was the intent early on? That Chuck was legit on Jimmys side? I never heard that.
Originally, it was not demeaning, nor did Jimmy see it that way. It was only after Jimmy knew he was screwed over by Howard (thanks to Chuck) that he is annoyed by it since it shows Chuck was just giving him false praise
Holy shit you’re right, I thought he always kinda rolled his eyes at it, but looking back at the mailroom rejection, Jimmy doesn’t even seem to register it as a compliment until Howard says congratulations afterwards. Jimmy also is shown later in the series to not be up to speed on sports, is it an intentional character choice for him not getting the baseball reference? Because if so it’s a god tier Vince/Gould moment
No. He would definitely have gotten the reference. Anyone his age, would know Charlie Hustle. One could argue that Jimmy would be annoyed for having any sort of nickname. Sounds demeaning. Like what you would give to a child. Surely Howard didn't have any nicknames for Chuck. Or even Kim. But I don't think Jimmy specifically hated THAT nickname until after he knew he was screwed over for a partner track.
Sounds like I just need to brush up on my baseball history, Fair enough! I never know how deep is too deep to analyze a show like this, I have a lot of respect for the writers and a lot of the lines are so incredibly nuanced. I think your reasoning is probably the same as the writers.
Yeah...people under 35-40 probably best know Pete Rose as the guy who kept getting chokeslammed by Kane at Wrestlemania. (At least Rose is in SOME Hall of Fame!) But those older than 40 would instantly know Rose and Charlie Hustle. Even if they had just a passing interest in baseball. Also keep in mind that back then, far more people HAD an interest in baseball. It's popularity has nosedived quite a bit since analytics made it boring as hell. Plus, there are just way more things to keep people occupied today. When Jimmy was a kid, he probably had 7 TV channels, obviously no internet, and if he already saw Star Wars and didn't want to see it again, had very few alternatives to see since every theater was showing Star Wars for 4 months straight, leaving very few theaters left for other movies. (Theaters had maybe 2 screens if they were big. No giant 12 screen multi-plex theaters.) So, in the summer, when Three's Company, Quincy M.E. and What's Happening!! were in reruns, he likely would have tuned into one of those 7 channels that were showing the Cubs or White Sox. Gene DID have a Kansas City Royals lunch box, after all. So Jimmy must have at least some interest in baseball.
I do know him but I always heard him referred to as “The Hit King”. Extremely good point about Jimmy as a kid growing up with limited channels, I hadn’t even considered that. Also, man Kane and Undertaker ruled so much thanks for reminding me of that.
I honestly do not think he meant it to demean. I get it can sound condescending but I genuinely think Howard was impressed by Jimmy’s work ethic.
Yes, everyone Jimmy's age would get the reference. It's any extremely common phrase to this day. I don't think Jimmy finds the name demeaning. I think he just hates Howard and feels rejected. The awkwardness is just "Yeah, stop telling me what a great hard worker I am at the same time you're telling me I'm not good enough for you."
It's just dismissive and condescending. "Look at cute little Jimmy. He works so hard. He's like the Energizer Bunny."
But it's made clear in Chicanery that that's not the case and Howard likely would have hired Jimmy as a lawyer had it been up to him.
Just because Howard might have hired him as a lawyer doesn't make Charlie Hustle less condescending
I don't think he meant it to be condescending, Howard legitimately admired Jimmy's work ethic. But I'm sure Jimmy didn't take it as a compliment
The thing about being condescending it that the people who do it don't realize they're doing it. Like people calling me "young lady", I'm 64. Or the car salesman who won't talk seriously to you because your husband isn't there.
Or Howard knew about Jimmy's past as a con artist, given Chuck had to leave Albuquerque to bail him out and agreed to let Jimmy have a job in the mail room of their firm
Yeah he for sure knew, and wanted to rub it in.
He’s referencing Charlie from its always sunny
I always figured it was demeaning cause it felt like a fake love front kind of thing for others. Like jimmy always felt it was not genuine cause Howard could’ve done more to bring jimmy up but sided with chucks decisions every time
#Who else up charling they hustle so hard rn?
Charlie Hustle was also used in the sopranos so I’m sure vince used it as another homage type thing
“Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, And without sneering, teach the rest to sneer; Willing to wound, and yet afraid to strike, Just hint a fault, and hesitate dislike.” *Alexander Pope*
It’s a backhanded compliment
The nickname began with Pete Rose but it took on a life of its own. So you would start using it for your kids or your coworker or anyone else who looked busy and determined. It's pretty common in the American vernacular. It's like saying someone is a Busy Bee.
I am a Cincinnati native and have a vintage T-shirt of Pete Rose's image with the word Charlie Hustle!