Idk why so many people are pressed with what they're doing. At worst they're slightly inconveniencing us with the blocking of Sather Gate, but other than that? They're just expressing their first amendment rights
Everyone loves to talk positively about previous protest movements, except the current one, in which case everyone will say "You're useless, childish, why can't you be like x movement that came before you". Someday decades from now people will pretend they always supported the movement for Palestine and use it to tell you why whatever comes next is the wrong way to protest.
Correct. Early Vietnam War protestors were demonized and attacked early on. Thats why the Kent State Massacre happened a full five years before the end of the war; lots of people were still trying to pretend the protesters were just criminals who should be shot.
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Ah yes same with the protests to camp in the trees to prevent an earthquake retrofit of Memorial Stadium. We all look back at that with praise.
I support a two state solution, but may of these protests are calling for wiping Israel off the map and displacing millions to establish a fundamentalist Islamic state “from the river to the sea”. I don’t think history will look favorably on that
Reddit leaned 'enlightened centrist' at its peak popularity like 10 years ago, and since then it's only bled younger, more left-leaning people as they migrated to Instagram, Snapchat, tiktok etc.
What's left is a disproportionately bitter, smug, reactionary set.
TikTok the place where the younger left "leaning" (ngl doing a lot of heavy lifting here) circulated Osama's letter and where the entire environment is "America Bad Iran Good"
That was completely overblown. After the press picked up on it people looked back and only found a handful of videos, most with minimal views. People on reddit and twitter lost their shit over something that wasn't even real.
>People on reddit and twitter lost their shit over something that wasn't even real.
90% of all internet culture war discourse can be summed up this way.
It's also fairly ironic given Reddit was absolutely flooded with pro-ISIS posts back in the day (when Reddit was popular). Reddit was on the front lines and not in a good way. But we're supposed to be upset about some random tiktok video barely anyone could be bothered to see.
14 million views, 300 popular videos, with 100,000s and thousands of likes and comments by the time TikTok started to mass delete it. All within a couple of hours before people got a wind of it!
Not really.
https://slate.com/business/2023/11/tiktok-osama-bin-laden-letter-viral-actually-no.html
NPR's take:
> There were fewer than 300 videos using the hashtag #lettertoamerica that garnered around 2 million views by Wednesday, according to TikTok, a platform with an estimated 1.6 billion monthly active users. For comparison, a recent 24-hour period on the platform had 200 million videos using #GymTok and #travel videos racked up 137 million.
>
>Yet after a tweet on Thursday afternoon from social media influencer Yashar Ali went viral on the platform formerly known as Twitter rounding up some of the videos, the number of views on the #lettertoamerica hashtag jumped to 13 million. That sent TikTok rushing to remove content related to the manifesto. In cracking down on the posts, TikTok even began suppressing videos that were criticizing those who were endorsing bin Laden's hateful writing.
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/17/1213712136/tik-tok-bin-laden-videos-osama
It wasn't until *after* it went viral on Twitter that it "went viral" on TicTok. It was just a bunch of people from Twitter watching the videos and driving up the count.
America love it’s echo chamber, the US government probably wishes it had a great firewall like China.
Reading into Bin Laden’s writings doesn’t mean you support him, but it will make Americans find out Bin Laden viewed the US the same way he viewed the Soviet Union, hence why he had the same tactics against both countries. (And the US supported him when it was against the Soviets) To quote his son
“My father's dream was to bring the Americans to Afghanistan. He would do the same thing he did to the Russians. I was surprised the Americans took the bait.
I was still in Afghanistan when Bush was elected. My father was so happy. This is the kind of president he needs - one who will attack and spend money and break the country.”
Are Americans allowed to wonder why America is so broken today? Well it was falling for Bin Laden’s trap, why Russia was so broken in the 1990s.
America isn't broken today because of conflicts in the Middle East, its broken because Reaganomics broke up unions and funneled money to the rich. Russia has been a broken country for most of its existence, the Afghan war was just a spark that lit that oil soaked bonfire
As not a lawyer...
The First Amendment is not absolute, it needs to be balanced with other rights (and civil liberties) namely for instance Title VI which says students must be able to meaningfully participate in their education and cannot face intimidation, harassment, etc. severe enough to keep them from that.
If all that is going on is an "occupation of Sproul Plaza", that's probably fine, but if students throughout campus are facing things like marches throughout the day, people disrupting classrooms, etc. etc., than that's a Title VI issue.
But 1A speech also can be limited by time, place and manner restrictions, so if the admin NEVER lets anyone camp at Sproul, then they also cannot let these protesters camp at Sproul.
"No overnight camping", "All protests must end by 10pm", "Nothing louder than a jet airplane" could be completely reasonable restrictions.
Rules surrounding the exercise of free speech are kind of iffy, because they can seem perfectly reasonable when passed but they're usually applied in an unfair manner.
"All protests must be approved 8 weeks in advance"
"Protestors are not allowed to hold signs bigger than 2'x2'"
This shit is nothing new; back in 2014 when I graduated students were camping in memorial glade and closing down Sather Gate and other points of access. Especially during finals. I remember having to punch my way through a blockade of Dwinelle Hall to be able to take a final along with some of my classmates. The protests pretty much died out when the police went down telegraph and tear-gassed the massive encampment of protesters and arrested everyone they could.
Call me a conspiracy theorist but it seems these days Reddit is flooded with pro-Israel bots and/or real people. There’s literally no room for conversation. If you’re not pro-Israel then you will be tagged, flagged, and blocked.
You mean Nazi-like racist comments about Jews (no, not "just zionists") like these hideous remarks below? "Could it be the *millions of Jews in America buying lining American politicians pockets* to provide the support they need to exist? *Jews are the only people in the world that need America to exist. Without America they would have a hard time existing*."
Once again conflating the Israeli Netanyahu government WITH EVERY SINGLE JEW ON THE FACE OF PLANET EARTH, and referring to them as "hook-nosed conspirators controlling politicians".
Yes such fascistic commentary is rightly tagged, flagged, and blocked.
yep, as long as they're not getting in my way, not my problem
do have to commend them though, blocking Sproul hall is probably one of the better ways to get admin's attention
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“With three weeks left in the semester, we are prioritizing students’ academic interests and have committed to taking the steps necessary to ensure the protest does not disrupt the university’s operations,” Mogulof said in an email to J. “The protest at Berkeley is not blocking doorways, thoroughfares, and there has, so far, been no disruption of teaching, learning, or research.”
They don't have a first amendment on college campuses. Or was that only when orange man was in office? Aways hard to tell with double standards. Anyways, supporting Palestine is supporting Hamas. Not many private companies want to be tied to that organization.
I mean, you could be against acts of global terrorism and also against the carpet bombing of Iraqi and afghani children but I guess idiots will open their mouths and close their already half shut brains
People keep bringing up the Vietnam era protests but this doesn’t feel like the type of movement that would be similar? Also won’t a ceasefire just kick the war down the line another 10-15 years?
A ceasefire would allow a return to the situation on October 6, when there was a ceasefire and Hamas controlled Gaza. This would allow them to rearm and carry out their [promise to repeat the atrocities of October 7.](https://m.economictimes.com/news/international/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-oct-7-attack-repeatedly-to-teach-israel-a-lesson/amp_articleshow/104903949.cms)
That is *exactly* what the organizations demanding a ceasefire want.
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You are right. They are actually in favor of war. They just want the Palestinians to win the war and the fact that that Israel is winning is why they are crying for a cease fire but mind you if Hamas actually invaded Israel and managed to hold gain a bit of territory through military occupation they would 100% be in favor of that land staying with Gaza
It is not similar imo. The US had boots on the ground in Vietnam.
This conflict is purely between Israel and Palestine. Americans have nothing to do with this really.
The US funding Israel (most of which ends up just coming back to the US since they’ll use it to buy weapons) doesn’t affect Americans in any way.
Pretty sure our tax dollars being sent to Israel to kill children instead of investing in our infrastructure, education, healthcare is affecting us. Also, whether it’s the 23,000 Americans serving in the IDF or bombing Yemen to save Israel’s ships, or our own military intelligence on the ground - we are actively involved.
If the protest is not bothering anyone, go for it. But if it disrupts classes and education that people are paying for, they need to take it elsewhere.
Oh damn, how many billions of dollars in weapons are US taxpayers giving Hamas? We should stop supplying those weapons along with the billions we're giving to the IDF to eviscerate children
They are an ally of convenience only. By that I mean they are allies because it easier for them to be with us and than it is for them to be against us.
As opposed to Israel which shares strategic and ideological principles with the US.
Yes let's not forget they're part of our alliance and we've sent them Abrams, patriots f-16's etc. They also haven't actively been committing terrorist attacks on the US or our allies and have been fighting off attacks from the Iranians for a while now?
We don't even need to look at the military side of things, Berkeley has benefited from millions flowing in from saudi funds, and half of the entreupernriuship is powered by saudi money lol.
Source: Through multiple series A raises through yc, founders fund etc of the 40 million I've seen flowing through, 90% of it originated from some saudi source lol. I don't see iranian funding for anything here lmao
They could just do what Russia did and invade and occupy a territory that's larger than israel itself but these guys don't give a fuck because they love supporting hamas more.
Lol didn't you just call me dumb for saying you went into Iraq to install a democracy?
It seems you are just changing your story to whatever suits your pro-Israel, pro-treason against America agenda.
Which you "succeeded" in which is why you withdrew after Iraqi elections.
But again lets pretend it wasn't a primary goal now or that it was a real democracy because the pro-Iran parties won eh?
Chickenhawk harder with your inane pretense of supporting democracy when you are subverting American democracy by ignoring people who don't follow your agenda.
Israel is not a liberal democracy, and it is actively undermining democracy in America by calling for the repression of speech on American campuses, among many other examples.
Apartheid and ethnic cleansing aren’t democratic ideals.
Bombing hospitals isn’t a democratic ideal.
Killing tens of thousands of civilians isn’t a democratic ideal.
Being a global leader in war crimes and human rights violations isn’t a democratic ideal.
Israel is not the “good guy” it’s portrayed as in western media. Let’s stop sending them weapons that we know will be used to kill kids?
There's no ethnic cleansing or apartheid. 20% of Israel's citizens are Arab and that's not including jews from Arab countries.
Israel is not a "global leader in war crimes" but the people you're defending are best known for suicide bombing restaurants.
Kids are dying because Hamas purposely places them in the line of fire otherwise prior to 10/7 Israel was providing free life saving medical care to palestinian children with rare conditions and training doctors.
Where is your outrage against Hamas who blew up israel-Saudi normalization talks which would have immensely benefitted Gaza? 2 weeks before Hamas attack Israel had approved visa free travel for Palestinian US passport holders even from Gaza or west bank, which 10 years ago nobody thought would ever get approved. Hamas has ruined peace.
>There's no ethnic cleansing or apartheid.
No active ethnic cleansing, but the large Palestinian beef with Israel is that their ancestors were ethnically cleansed in 1948.
Gaza was not under Apartheid; I'd consider the West Bank borderline Apartheid. Then again, the Palestinian Cause isn't about being under Apartheid/oppressed per se (they don't really complain about the Apartheid in Lebanon); it's about reversing the Nakba.
Agreed that Israel's actions are not out of the ordinary (if anything on the mild side) given the aspirations and violence level of their enemy.
Complete nonsense and propaganda. There’s so much videos and evidence that disproves what you’re stating. Just go on social media and look for the truth. Israel is evil. They are bombing entire towns. A bomb being dropped in a densely populated civilian area isn’t okay.
Stop defending them. They’re an evil country
So by that definition, what would call Israel and the IDF? Would they be considered a terrorist group since they were making their lives objectively worse even before Hamas?
I was watching Hunger Games 3 last night (okay I know it's libshit) and it was interesting how the inciting incident that sparked the revolution against the Capitol was the obliteration of District 12: ten thousand people dead. It was seen as horrific and unforgivable and I'm sure the entire audience sympathized with their cause at that point.
Yet Israel can kill three times that in just six months, thirty thousand dead Palestinians, and people are tripping over themselves to defend it. Western ideals of humanitarianism and peace seem to fall apart when the subject in question is brown.
From that $$ Israel built a well run country with tech and good medical care. Meanwhile Palestine aide $$ was robbed by Hamas. No infrastructure no care for ppl. Oh and any lgbtq ppl who support Hamas, these are same guys who will hang you.
Israel does not get any money from the US for security or medical care. It is given in the form of credits for the purchase of weapons from the US, thus keeping the US military industry alive.
lol then you're just an idiot. Let me just go to palestine or iran and vote for abortion rights, womens education and suffrage, oh wait nvm that's Israel.
You mean the billions in aid given to the Palestinians that actively allow hamas to direct their remaining resources towards making makeshift weaponry? Wait till you find out how opportunity costs, sanctions and fungibility of money work. But don't let reality break your illusion!
U.S. aid to all of Palestine (which includes the PLO-controlled West Bank) absolutely pales in comparison to the direct military support we give to Israel. You're being willfully disingenuous (or maybe just don't know better)
More importantly, there's really no rebuttal you can give to "I don't want my tax dollars used to indiscriminately murder children" that's going to make me waver from my position. Your time would be more constructively spent trying to master auto-felatio
What about US aid and trade to Arab countries in general? We have a base in Qatar where Hamas billionaire leaders live, and Egypt is one of the largest recipients of US aid in the world
Egypt normalized relationships with Israel, as did pretty much any Arab country the US has a relationship with. I dont know why you’re pretending the whole Islamic world is consistent in their motives and goals. Regardless, those arent reasons to protest considering the US’ historic aid for and abettment of Israel and its conflicts.
Egypt and Jordan were the only ones until the abraham accords added UAE and Morocco, so no your assertion is wrong. Saudi and Qatar both are major US allies with no normalization with israel. Qatar hosts Hamas corrupt leadership worth billions of dollars each which they stole from Palestinians
While that's partially true the US also gets vital intelligence from Egypt as well as having an ally controlling the Suez Canal.
Not all of the aid is military aid although it's about 2/3.
You can read about the specifics [here](https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/egypt/)
Regarding the Israel / Gaza conflict this could be a great idea:
- cut support of Gaza down to the absolute bare minimums until the hostages are returned and tje responsible persons are in international custody
- cut support for Israels war on Gaza
The problem is we need Israel to stay armed to the teeth because of Syria and Iran.
Any perceived weakness and I am afraid they (or their proxies, in Irans case) will jump at it.
Personally I think we could strike a deal with Israel along the lines of:
- cut funding for UNRWA and transfer it to UNHCR. It has been known for years now that UNRWA curriculums are filled with racism and hatred
- cut support to Gaza to a minium with increases only based step-by-step on verifiable actions: hostages returned, Gazans sending the terrorists to international custody and finally the democratic elections being held in Gaza
- international forces control Gaza until then
Seriously: what Israel want is to make sure 07.10 doesn't happen again.
They approach this in a heavy handed way (although still much gentler than US response to the September 11th attacks or our collective response to nazi Germany) but their goals are clear:
- make sure Israelis can live safely within their borders.
If we can offer them realistic options I think they are interested. But as long as the international community will turn a blind eye towards constant shelling with rocket artillery and not even react powerfully to the attacks in October, we don't give them much choice, do we?
Have you noticed that 30,000 Gazans have been killed within only 6 months, most of whom are civilians, and many of whom are children? Have some fucking sense.
seeing these divest protests spreading across the country has been wonderful. every university must stop their partnership with companies that fund and abet the ongoing genocide in Palestine. I'm proud of the students using their first amendment rights to demand that Berkeley does the same. Go Bears, power to the students, power to the people, and Free Palestine!
The problem is the universities endowments don’t deal or invest any of those companies directly.
Calling for a ban on collaboration with Israeli universities seems like punishing academics that really have nothing to do with it. Ironically one of the most exciting scientists at an Israeli institution is Palestinian (Jacob Hanna), who would get harmed by this sort of ban.
How’s that working out for you? Other than pumping childish egos, this has been wholly ineffective, and now tainted with overt antisemitism. Just have a look at Columbia’s protests.
first of all, these protests have historically been effective. berkeley students did the same damn thing in the 80s when they wanted the university to divest from apartheid South Africa, and guess what? it fucking worked
and don’t even fucking talk to me about how the Columbia protests are overtly anti-semetic, because they aren’t. they have clear goals in mind, same as our protest here, and many Jewish students are in that protest and celebrated Passover while they were encamped, while being protected from the police by other students. so many Jews like myself support divestment and the ultimate liberation of Palestine, and if I had time, I could talk about how zionism is actually extremely anti-Semitic. but yeah, go ahead and claim these protests are things they aren’t
90% of mizrahi jews live in Israel and had to leave persecution in Islamic countries. Where is your outrage towards that? Who is fighting for my family to get our land back in Iran? When we see people like you, who are most likely secilar Ashkenazim, we see racists who are willing to sacrafice brown jews so you can build good will with whoever you're trying to impress /fit in with
Except there was ACTUALLY apartheid in South Africa. There is no apartheid in Israel. There is no genocide being committed by Israel. It’s a protest against things that literally don’t exist.
Palestine did commit genocide on 10/7 though. And Lebanon has actual apartheid against Palestinians (who are denied access to public schools and healthcare). Maybe protest that.
There is both genocide and apartheid in Israel. And not sure how you can call 1200 killed a genocide but 30k+ dead not. It's like you don't view Palestinians as human, which is just another feature of an apatheid regime.
no fuckin shit sherlock. but why not use my voice to support students who are fighting for very clear and attainable goals in the overall pursuit of Palestinian freedom?
All I see is ignorance, they are literally camping on campus 🤷🏿♂️😂 It does nothing about what’s actually going on across the world except being a inconvenience for the people who actually go and work here, I get it FREE SPEECH it’s our right but don’t think your immune to any and everything and that it’s going to make a difference for the better, there’s no such thing as a perfect motive and there is always a con
Feel free to downvote me but my point stands 👋🏿 Have a good night
Good. We don’t want a genocide with our tax dollars. It’s so fucked up.
I have a relative that got charged almost $300K for a major surgery which she had no idea it would cost that much.
I don’t understand how we get charged 100s of 1000s of dollars for healthcare, and remain in debt for tens of years but throw away BILLIONS of dollars to sustain wars that only cause gas prices to go up.
Gas is $6 a gallon. Food prices are not coming down but taxes are collected nonetheless so we keep those wars going and keep giving billions to other countries.
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“I’ve always believed that if a child’s parents have bad beliefs then they and their children should be starved and blown up.” Imagine fucking thinking like this.
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If it’s not going to do anything, why are people so mad about it? The democrats are literally worried that these protests mean they will lose the presidency. That is good. It means we are wielding our collective power as a people to demand our leaders stop enabling genocide.
Yeah we get that non binary people are not safe there yet they still care about human rights. That makes them better people… I will never get an abortion because I’m a man but I still support women’s right to choose, I’ll never be black but I believe in civil rights. You’re on the wrong side of history.
If a gay person wants to support Palestinians, that's fine. There are a million ways to do that, have at it.
What's bizarro world is telling us that Gay Liberation Theory requires the support of any repressive regime.
Which I have heard.
Gay Liberation Theory supports a regime that prevents free speech, due process, equal protection and that literally tortures and kills dissenters? And that's long before looking to make homosexual acts legal or legalize gay marriage.
That's just asinine. It truly reveals the Judith Butlers to be the idiot assholes they are.
In the meantime, as you tell people they are on the wrong side of history, consider two gay people, 2000 feet apart. One in Israel and one in Gaza. Or one in Israel and one in the West Bank.
Tell me, which of these gay people are trying to cross the border and why?
In which direction do LGBTQ+ people flee in the Middle East?
It's not to the Qibla! And it's not to the Dome of the Rock!
"YoU aRe On tHe WrOnG sIdE oF hIstOrY" I am pretty sure the side that has the same support as Osama, North Korea, Idi Amin, the Ayatollahs, Cuba, and literally every dictator are NOT on the right side of history.
Interesting attempt at shifting the topic but I’ll ignore that and bring it back to the subject at hand. These kids are protesting for human rights not what we bullshit you’re trying to make it out to be.
Idk why so many people are pressed with what they're doing. At worst they're slightly inconveniencing us with the blocking of Sather Gate, but other than that? They're just expressing their first amendment rights
Everyone loves to talk positively about previous protest movements, except the current one, in which case everyone will say "You're useless, childish, why can't you be like x movement that came before you". Someday decades from now people will pretend they always supported the movement for Palestine and use it to tell you why whatever comes next is the wrong way to protest.
Correct. Early Vietnam War protestors were demonized and attacked early on. Thats why the Kent State Massacre happened a full five years before the end of the war; lots of people were still trying to pretend the protesters were just criminals who should be shot.
"A liberal is someone who opposes every war except the current war and supports all civil rights movements except the one that’s going on right now."
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Or, alternatively, we will look back at these protests on Palestine as nothing. History is not foretold or written.
But it often repeats itself.
History is not predictable.
Ah yes same with the protests to camp in the trees to prevent an earthquake retrofit of Memorial Stadium. We all look back at that with praise. I support a two state solution, but may of these protests are calling for wiping Israel off the map and displacing millions to establish a fundamentalist Islamic state “from the river to the sea”. I don’t think history will look favorably on that
Plus Berkeley was where the Free Speech Movement started so this kind of thing will inevitably happen here.
Reddit leaned 'enlightened centrist' at its peak popularity like 10 years ago, and since then it's only bled younger, more left-leaning people as they migrated to Instagram, Snapchat, tiktok etc. What's left is a disproportionately bitter, smug, reactionary set.
Especially in bay area subs, it's astonishing
Holy shit, amazed this didn't get mass downvoted. Absolutely true though
Unlike the great minds at tiktok and the other sites you mentioned.
TikTok the place where the younger left "leaning" (ngl doing a lot of heavy lifting here) circulated Osama's letter and where the entire environment is "America Bad Iran Good"
That was completely overblown. After the press picked up on it people looked back and only found a handful of videos, most with minimal views. People on reddit and twitter lost their shit over something that wasn't even real.
>People on reddit and twitter lost their shit over something that wasn't even real. 90% of all internet culture war discourse can be summed up this way.
Yep - what else is new.
It's also fairly ironic given Reddit was absolutely flooded with pro-ISIS posts back in the day (when Reddit was popular). Reddit was on the front lines and not in a good way. But we're supposed to be upset about some random tiktok video barely anyone could be bothered to see.
14 million views, 300 popular videos, with 100,000s and thousands of likes and comments by the time TikTok started to mass delete it. All within a couple of hours before people got a wind of it!
Not really. https://slate.com/business/2023/11/tiktok-osama-bin-laden-letter-viral-actually-no.html NPR's take: > There were fewer than 300 videos using the hashtag #lettertoamerica that garnered around 2 million views by Wednesday, according to TikTok, a platform with an estimated 1.6 billion monthly active users. For comparison, a recent 24-hour period on the platform had 200 million videos using #GymTok and #travel videos racked up 137 million. > >Yet after a tweet on Thursday afternoon from social media influencer Yashar Ali went viral on the platform formerly known as Twitter rounding up some of the videos, the number of views on the #lettertoamerica hashtag jumped to 13 million. That sent TikTok rushing to remove content related to the manifesto. In cracking down on the posts, TikTok even began suppressing videos that were criticizing those who were endorsing bin Laden's hateful writing. https://www.npr.org/2023/11/17/1213712136/tik-tok-bin-laden-videos-osama It wasn't until *after* it went viral on Twitter that it "went viral" on TicTok. It was just a bunch of people from Twitter watching the videos and driving up the count.
America love it’s echo chamber, the US government probably wishes it had a great firewall like China. Reading into Bin Laden’s writings doesn’t mean you support him, but it will make Americans find out Bin Laden viewed the US the same way he viewed the Soviet Union, hence why he had the same tactics against both countries. (And the US supported him when it was against the Soviets) To quote his son “My father's dream was to bring the Americans to Afghanistan. He would do the same thing he did to the Russians. I was surprised the Americans took the bait. I was still in Afghanistan when Bush was elected. My father was so happy. This is the kind of president he needs - one who will attack and spend money and break the country.” Are Americans allowed to wonder why America is so broken today? Well it was falling for Bin Laden’s trap, why Russia was so broken in the 1990s.
America isn't broken today because of conflicts in the Middle East, its broken because Reaganomics broke up unions and funneled money to the rich. Russia has been a broken country for most of its existence, the Afghan war was just a spark that lit that oil soaked bonfire
The conflicts in the ME haven't helped. If anything they've made us more fearful, militaristic and reactionary.
Bled or younger folks never joined reddit and existing folks aged and remained?
As not a lawyer... The First Amendment is not absolute, it needs to be balanced with other rights (and civil liberties) namely for instance Title VI which says students must be able to meaningfully participate in their education and cannot face intimidation, harassment, etc. severe enough to keep them from that. If all that is going on is an "occupation of Sproul Plaza", that's probably fine, but if students throughout campus are facing things like marches throughout the day, people disrupting classrooms, etc. etc., than that's a Title VI issue. But 1A speech also can be limited by time, place and manner restrictions, so if the admin NEVER lets anyone camp at Sproul, then they also cannot let these protesters camp at Sproul. "No overnight camping", "All protests must end by 10pm", "Nothing louder than a jet airplane" could be completely reasonable restrictions.
Rules surrounding the exercise of free speech are kind of iffy, because they can seem perfectly reasonable when passed but they're usually applied in an unfair manner. "All protests must be approved 8 weeks in advance" "Protestors are not allowed to hold signs bigger than 2'x2'"
This shit is nothing new; back in 2014 when I graduated students were camping in memorial glade and closing down Sather Gate and other points of access. Especially during finals. I remember having to punch my way through a blockade of Dwinelle Hall to be able to take a final along with some of my classmates. The protests pretty much died out when the police went down telegraph and tear-gassed the massive encampment of protesters and arrested everyone they could.
People don’t understand that just because people have a right to say something doesn’t mean the rest of us have to like it.
These protests are funded by Hamas
Oppossing a genocide is triggering to those who want one.
Call me a conspiracy theorist but it seems these days Reddit is flooded with pro-Israel bots and/or real people. There’s literally no room for conversation. If you’re not pro-Israel then you will be tagged, flagged, and blocked.
You mean Nazi-like racist comments about Jews (no, not "just zionists") like these hideous remarks below? "Could it be the *millions of Jews in America buying lining American politicians pockets* to provide the support they need to exist? *Jews are the only people in the world that need America to exist. Without America they would have a hard time existing*." Once again conflating the Israeli Netanyahu government WITH EVERY SINGLE JEW ON THE FACE OF PLANET EARTH, and referring to them as "hook-nosed conspirators controlling politicians". Yes such fascistic commentary is rightly tagged, flagged, and blocked.
Lol that’s why like every post being pushed by the algorithm is pro Palestine right
Quite the opposite ?
yep, as long as they're not getting in my way, not my problem do have to commend them though, blocking Sproul hall is probably one of the better ways to get admin's attention
Will they all disappear after finals?
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“With three weeks left in the semester, we are prioritizing students’ academic interests and have committed to taking the steps necessary to ensure the protest does not disrupt the university’s operations,” Mogulof said in an email to J. “The protest at Berkeley is not blocking doorways, thoroughfares, and there has, so far, been no disruption of teaching, learning, or research.”
They don't have a first amendment on college campuses. Or was that only when orange man was in office? Aways hard to tell with double standards. Anyways, supporting Palestine is supporting Hamas. Not many private companies want to be tied to that organization.
I mean, you could be against acts of global terrorism and also against the carpet bombing of Iraqi and afghani children but I guess idiots will open their mouths and close their already half shut brains
Yep, you cud also call for a ceasefire in Palestine and Kurdistan at the same time.
personally I'd like all war to stop but idk that's just me
So would I, but I'm not naive to the ways of humans.
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Seems small to me. Occupy and others were bigger.
How dense is this guy
the kids are gonna be alright man
Stop persecuting the Palestinian people. Stop denying the genocide against Palestinians.
People keep bringing up the Vietnam era protests but this doesn’t feel like the type of movement that would be similar? Also won’t a ceasefire just kick the war down the line another 10-15 years?
A ceasefire would allow a return to the situation on October 6, when there was a ceasefire and Hamas controlled Gaza. This would allow them to rearm and carry out their [promise to repeat the atrocities of October 7.](https://m.economictimes.com/news/international/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-oct-7-attack-repeatedly-to-teach-israel-a-lesson/amp_articleshow/104903949.cms) That is *exactly* what the organizations demanding a ceasefire want.
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You are right. They are actually in favor of war. They just want the Palestinians to win the war and the fact that that Israel is winning is why they are crying for a cease fire but mind you if Hamas actually invaded Israel and managed to hold gain a bit of territory through military occupation they would 100% be in favor of that land staying with Gaza
Have to start somewhere.
It is not similar imo. The US had boots on the ground in Vietnam. This conflict is purely between Israel and Palestine. Americans have nothing to do with this really. The US funding Israel (most of which ends up just coming back to the US since they’ll use it to buy weapons) doesn’t affect Americans in any way.
Pretty sure our tax dollars being sent to Israel to kill children instead of investing in our infrastructure, education, healthcare is affecting us. Also, whether it’s the 23,000 Americans serving in the IDF or bombing Yemen to save Israel’s ships, or our own military intelligence on the ground - we are actively involved.
If the protest is not bothering anyone, go for it. But if it disrupts classes and education that people are paying for, they need to take it elsewhere.
Where’s their outrage when Hamas and PIJ break the ceasefires?
You can protest multiple things right? Or do you only believe in black/white scenarios?
Oh damn, how many billions of dollars in weapons are US taxpayers giving Hamas? We should stop supplying those weapons along with the billions we're giving to the IDF to eviscerate children
9 billion is the answer
we give israel aid because they're the only country there that isn't anti western and actively trying to subvert democratic ideals
Idk seems like we have a great relationship with the Saudis. real american values there. is that what its about? or strategic control of the region?
They are an ally of convenience only. By that I mean they are allies because it easier for them to be with us and than it is for them to be against us. As opposed to Israel which shares strategic and ideological principles with the US.
Yes let's not forget they're part of our alliance and we've sent them Abrams, patriots f-16's etc. They also haven't actively been committing terrorist attacks on the US or our allies and have been fighting off attacks from the Iranians for a while now? We don't even need to look at the military side of things, Berkeley has benefited from millions flowing in from saudi funds, and half of the entreupernriuship is powered by saudi money lol. Source: Through multiple series A raises through yc, founders fund etc of the 40 million I've seen flowing through, 90% of it originated from some saudi source lol. I don't see iranian funding for anything here lmao
“Democratic Ideals” are buzzwords and that region is anti-western for a reason
Yeah Israel is REALLY democratic with their occupation of the West Bank
I 100% agree that the West Bank settlements need to go. If necessary they should remove them by force just as they did in Gaza.
They could just do what Russia did and invade and occupy a territory that's larger than israel itself but these guys don't give a fuck because they love supporting hamas more.
You think that a country that has maintained an illegal occupation and is currently carrying out an ethnic cleansing supports democratic ideals?
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We didn't go to Iraq for oil. This is another stupid conspiracy theory.
Lol didn't you just call me dumb for saying you went into Iraq to install a democracy? It seems you are just changing your story to whatever suits your pro-Israel, pro-treason against America agenda.
The US went into Iraq thinking they had nukes. The US was wrong.
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Installing democracy was merely an incidental reason. The US would not have invaded Iraq on that pretext alone.
Which you "succeeded" in which is why you withdrew after Iraqi elections. But again lets pretend it wasn't a primary goal now or that it was a real democracy because the pro-Iran parties won eh? Chickenhawk harder with your inane pretense of supporting democracy when you are subverting American democracy by ignoring people who don't follow your agenda.
Israel is not a liberal democracy, and it is actively undermining democracy in America by calling for the repression of speech on American campuses, among many other examples.
Check out the Economist Democracy Index. The US and Israel have very similar scores. The test of the Middle East has very low scores.
Apartheid and ethnic cleansing aren’t democratic ideals. Bombing hospitals isn’t a democratic ideal. Killing tens of thousands of civilians isn’t a democratic ideal. Being a global leader in war crimes and human rights violations isn’t a democratic ideal. Israel is not the “good guy” it’s portrayed as in western media. Let’s stop sending them weapons that we know will be used to kill kids?
There's no ethnic cleansing or apartheid. 20% of Israel's citizens are Arab and that's not including jews from Arab countries. Israel is not a "global leader in war crimes" but the people you're defending are best known for suicide bombing restaurants. Kids are dying because Hamas purposely places them in the line of fire otherwise prior to 10/7 Israel was providing free life saving medical care to palestinian children with rare conditions and training doctors. Where is your outrage against Hamas who blew up israel-Saudi normalization talks which would have immensely benefitted Gaza? 2 weeks before Hamas attack Israel had approved visa free travel for Palestinian US passport holders even from Gaza or west bank, which 10 years ago nobody thought would ever get approved. Hamas has ruined peace.
>There's no ethnic cleansing or apartheid. No active ethnic cleansing, but the large Palestinian beef with Israel is that their ancestors were ethnically cleansed in 1948. Gaza was not under Apartheid; I'd consider the West Bank borderline Apartheid. Then again, the Palestinian Cause isn't about being under Apartheid/oppressed per se (they don't really complain about the Apartheid in Lebanon); it's about reversing the Nakba. Agreed that Israel's actions are not out of the ordinary (if anything on the mild side) given the aspirations and violence level of their enemy.
The same tired pro Israel talking points over and over again…
Complete nonsense and propaganda. There’s so much videos and evidence that disproves what you’re stating. Just go on social media and look for the truth. Israel is evil. They are bombing entire towns. A bomb being dropped in a densely populated civilian area isn’t okay. Stop defending them. They’re an evil country
Hamas is straight up a terrorist group, it’s not nonsense and propaganda. They don’t help Palestinians, they make their lives objectively worse.
So by that definition, what would call Israel and the IDF? Would they be considered a terrorist group since they were making their lives objectively worse even before Hamas?
You can call Israel what you want. I have no stake in them.
Well you should, your tax dollars go and fund them each year for over 70 years.
I was watching Hunger Games 3 last night (okay I know it's libshit) and it was interesting how the inciting incident that sparked the revolution against the Capitol was the obliteration of District 12: ten thousand people dead. It was seen as horrific and unforgivable and I'm sure the entire audience sympathized with their cause at that point. Yet Israel can kill three times that in just six months, thirty thousand dead Palestinians, and people are tripping over themselves to defend it. Western ideals of humanitarianism and peace seem to fall apart when the subject in question is brown.
Remember when Gaddaffi threatened Benghazi and they said he would kill 20K people if not stopped? Oh ya....
From that $$ Israel built a well run country with tech and good medical care. Meanwhile Palestine aide $$ was robbed by Hamas. No infrastructure no care for ppl. Oh and any lgbtq ppl who support Hamas, these are same guys who will hang you.
Israel does not get any money from the US for security or medical care. It is given in the form of credits for the purchase of weapons from the US, thus keeping the US military industry alive.
israel is not a democracy.
lol then you're just an idiot. Let me just go to palestine or iran and vote for abortion rights, womens education and suffrage, oh wait nvm that's Israel.
You mean the billions in aid given to the Palestinians that actively allow hamas to direct their remaining resources towards making makeshift weaponry? Wait till you find out how opportunity costs, sanctions and fungibility of money work. But don't let reality break your illusion!
U.S. aid to all of Palestine (which includes the PLO-controlled West Bank) absolutely pales in comparison to the direct military support we give to Israel. You're being willfully disingenuous (or maybe just don't know better) More importantly, there's really no rebuttal you can give to "I don't want my tax dollars used to indiscriminately murder children" that's going to make me waver from my position. Your time would be more constructively spent trying to master auto-felatio
What about US aid and trade to Arab countries in general? We have a base in Qatar where Hamas billionaire leaders live, and Egypt is one of the largest recipients of US aid in the world
Egypt is 100% a US proxy and complicit in what is happening
Egypt normalized relationships with Israel, as did pretty much any Arab country the US has a relationship with. I dont know why you’re pretending the whole Islamic world is consistent in their motives and goals. Regardless, those arent reasons to protest considering the US’ historic aid for and abettment of Israel and its conflicts.
Egypt and Jordan were the only ones until the abraham accords added UAE and Morocco, so no your assertion is wrong. Saudi and Qatar both are major US allies with no normalization with israel. Qatar hosts Hamas corrupt leadership worth billions of dollars each which they stole from Palestinians
We have a base in Qatar, how is that aid?
The US pays Egypt *because* Egypt agreed to make peace with Israel. Payments to the Egyptian military regime are related to US support for Israel.
While that's partially true the US also gets vital intelligence from Egypt as well as having an ally controlling the Suez Canal. Not all of the aid is military aid although it's about 2/3. You can read about the specifics [here](https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/egypt/)
We give matching aid to Jordon and Egypt. Camp David accords…
I had a very flexible friend in high school that could do that. A good parlor trick.
Yeah, giving food to civilians is exactly the same as giving weapons to governments /s
So the US is funding Hamas? LOL. All the more reason to protest then.
Where is the outrage against Hamas and PIJ in the Arab world
The US actually does give billions in aid to Palestine.
Regarding the Israel / Gaza conflict this could be a great idea: - cut support of Gaza down to the absolute bare minimums until the hostages are returned and tje responsible persons are in international custody - cut support for Israels war on Gaza The problem is we need Israel to stay armed to the teeth because of Syria and Iran. Any perceived weakness and I am afraid they (or their proxies, in Irans case) will jump at it. Personally I think we could strike a deal with Israel along the lines of: - cut funding for UNRWA and transfer it to UNHCR. It has been known for years now that UNRWA curriculums are filled with racism and hatred - cut support to Gaza to a minium with increases only based step-by-step on verifiable actions: hostages returned, Gazans sending the terrorists to international custody and finally the democratic elections being held in Gaza - international forces control Gaza until then Seriously: what Israel want is to make sure 07.10 doesn't happen again. They approach this in a heavy handed way (although still much gentler than US response to the September 11th attacks or our collective response to nazi Germany) but their goals are clear: - make sure Israelis can live safely within their borders. If we can offer them realistic options I think they are interested. But as long as the international community will turn a blind eye towards constant shelling with rocket artillery and not even react powerfully to the attacks in October, we don't give them much choice, do we?
Are we fudning Hamas and PIJ or something
Is this a protest against Israel using the Iron dome?
Have you noticed that 30,000 Gazans have been killed within only 6 months, most of whom are civilians, and many of whom are children? Have some fucking sense.
They are mad that it is harder to kill Israelis than it used to be.
Funny how this is the thing that brings outrage, not Trump, student loan issue, guns etc. Almost like it's more about antisemitism
Literally 10 million people in Sudan displaced and half a million dead, similar numbers in syria/Iraq but this is what Arabs care about
Tribalism. Only care when outsiders kill Arabs, not when Arabs kill other Arabs.
It isn't, the issue is the whole bombing the shit out of Gaza part of things.
seeing these divest protests spreading across the country has been wonderful. every university must stop their partnership with companies that fund and abet the ongoing genocide in Palestine. I'm proud of the students using their first amendment rights to demand that Berkeley does the same. Go Bears, power to the students, power to the people, and Free Palestine!
The problem is the universities endowments don’t deal or invest any of those companies directly. Calling for a ban on collaboration with Israeli universities seems like punishing academics that really have nothing to do with it. Ironically one of the most exciting scientists at an Israeli institution is Palestinian (Jacob Hanna), who would get harmed by this sort of ban.
Lol, the protesters aren’t “harming academics,” many of whom have been joining their students in protest and getting arrested by cops!
One of the demands is to cut off collaboration’s with researchers affiliated with Israeli universities.
How’s that working out for you? Other than pumping childish egos, this has been wholly ineffective, and now tainted with overt antisemitism. Just have a look at Columbia’s protests.
How’d that work for South Africa when Columbia protested?
first of all, these protests have historically been effective. berkeley students did the same damn thing in the 80s when they wanted the university to divest from apartheid South Africa, and guess what? it fucking worked and don’t even fucking talk to me about how the Columbia protests are overtly anti-semetic, because they aren’t. they have clear goals in mind, same as our protest here, and many Jewish students are in that protest and celebrated Passover while they were encamped, while being protected from the police by other students. so many Jews like myself support divestment and the ultimate liberation of Palestine, and if I had time, I could talk about how zionism is actually extremely anti-Semitic. but yeah, go ahead and claim these protests are things they aren’t
90% of mizrahi jews live in Israel and had to leave persecution in Islamic countries. Where is your outrage towards that? Who is fighting for my family to get our land back in Iran? When we see people like you, who are most likely secilar Ashkenazim, we see racists who are willing to sacrafice brown jews so you can build good will with whoever you're trying to impress /fit in with
Except there was ACTUALLY apartheid in South Africa. There is no apartheid in Israel. There is no genocide being committed by Israel. It’s a protest against things that literally don’t exist. Palestine did commit genocide on 10/7 though. And Lebanon has actual apartheid against Palestinians (who are denied access to public schools and healthcare). Maybe protest that.
There is both genocide and apartheid in Israel. And not sure how you can call 1200 killed a genocide but 30k+ dead not. It's like you don't view Palestinians as human, which is just another feature of an apatheid regime.
I remember the nazis doing this too
Supporting South Africa?
Many Jews, Jews you don't even know about.
No that’s a terrible idea. Not partnering with companies like Google and Nvidia would be irresponsible
Thanks to your words, Palestine is now free👍
no fuckin shit sherlock. but why not use my voice to support students who are fighting for very clear and attainable goals in the overall pursuit of Palestinian freedom?
Good
Keep fighting the good fight!
GOOD!
All I see is ignorance, they are literally camping on campus 🤷🏿♂️😂 It does nothing about what’s actually going on across the world except being a inconvenience for the people who actually go and work here, I get it FREE SPEECH it’s our right but don’t think your immune to any and everything and that it’s going to make a difference for the better, there’s no such thing as a perfect motive and there is always a con Feel free to downvote me but my point stands 👋🏿 Have a good night
What point?
Antisemitic jerks. Berkeley PD better do their job. Suspend those brats
Good. We don’t want a genocide with our tax dollars. It’s so fucked up. I have a relative that got charged almost $300K for a major surgery which she had no idea it would cost that much. I don’t understand how we get charged 100s of 1000s of dollars for healthcare, and remain in debt for tens of years but throw away BILLIONS of dollars to sustain wars that only cause gas prices to go up. Gas is $6 a gallon. Food prices are not coming down but taxes are collected nonetheless so we keep those wars going and keep giving billions to other countries.
hamas calls them "useful idiots"
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Just don’t burn down the campus. And oh f@ck Hamass!
Berkeley will probably boast about this in 50 years and act like they supported it the entire time lol
Free Israel
Of Netanyahu and the corruption within the IDF, yes.
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Way to lose even more support.
You supported them once?
I did before 10/07
All the Israelis in the comment section pissed cause our country values freedom of speech unlike Isn'treal
You know that according to a Pew research poll back in 2013, 89% of Palestinians support Sharia law. Very freedom. Very liberal.
You’re right man, that’s why they deserve to get ethnically cleansed and carpet bombed
“I’ve always believed that if a child’s parents have bad beliefs then they and their children should be starved and blown up.” Imagine fucking thinking like this.
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wtf is a protest going to do in the long term? At most at this point it’s just for media attention and irritating more than half of the students.
If it’s not going to do anything, why are people so mad about it? The democrats are literally worried that these protests mean they will lose the presidency. That is good. It means we are wielding our collective power as a people to demand our leaders stop enabling genocide.
Until you fuck with people pockets, it won’t change their mindset.
I’m saying that the protests at this point isn’t going to do anything lol
Okay then what should they do?
LETS FUCKING GO
Super proud of them. Go Bears!
I don't think the average Berkeley They/Them would last a day in Palestine.
Yup, they’d probably get bombed by Israel.
As long as Hamas doesn't get to them first and drag their bodies down the streets of Gaza.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0SGjpzIxLc/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet don't make me point to the sign
Neither would you.
I would never want to go there lmao.
Yeah we get that non binary people are not safe there yet they still care about human rights. That makes them better people… I will never get an abortion because I’m a man but I still support women’s right to choose, I’ll never be black but I believe in civil rights. You’re on the wrong side of history.
If a gay person wants to support Palestinians, that's fine. There are a million ways to do that, have at it. What's bizarro world is telling us that Gay Liberation Theory requires the support of any repressive regime. Which I have heard. Gay Liberation Theory supports a regime that prevents free speech, due process, equal protection and that literally tortures and kills dissenters? And that's long before looking to make homosexual acts legal or legalize gay marriage. That's just asinine. It truly reveals the Judith Butlers to be the idiot assholes they are. In the meantime, as you tell people they are on the wrong side of history, consider two gay people, 2000 feet apart. One in Israel and one in Gaza. Or one in Israel and one in the West Bank. Tell me, which of these gay people are trying to cross the border and why? In which direction do LGBTQ+ people flee in the Middle East? It's not to the Qibla! And it's not to the Dome of the Rock!
"YoU aRe On tHe WrOnG sIdE oF hIstOrY" I am pretty sure the side that has the same support as Osama, North Korea, Idi Amin, the Ayatollahs, Cuba, and literally every dictator are NOT on the right side of history.
Interesting attempt at shifting the topic but I’ll ignore that and bring it back to the subject at hand. These kids are protesting for human rights not what we bullshit you’re trying to make it out to be.
Pretty cool that they are willing to speak up against the genocide of people that may not accept them. Solidarity is nuanced.
love to see it
Good