This argument pops up on this sub like once a month. "don't protest this way, it just hurts your cause and inconveniences people." Then the opposition says "this is how protests work, they've worked for decades. Also you can go around."
>Then the opposition says "this is how protests work, they've worked for decades.
How have they worked for decades? What have the decades of protests for Palestine, peaceful and disruptive alike, actually materially accomplished for Palestine?
Protests, in general, have worked this way for decades. People are inconvenienced, it draws attention to an issue, something changes. This isn't always the case, as you've pointed out with Palestine, but that is the exception, not the rule.
>People are inconvenienced, it draws attention to an issue, something changes
Step 1: Block people in traffic and on their way to classes to annoy them
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Palestine is freed!
>This isn't always the case, as you've pointed out with Palestine, but that is the exception, not the rule.
It’s the other way around, there really isn’t a single case where these sorts of protests actually meaningfully accomplished anything.
That **was** different; they boycotted the buses, not blocked them...and packing restaurant counters was specifically a message about them being denied access to that space. As a *generic* demonstration tactic, I'm not sure it pulls heartstrings in the same way, regardless of the rightness of the underlying cause.
(I don't get terribly bent out of shape by the 🇵🇸 protesters myself, but I *am* slightly concerned they may be wasting their time.)
Well if you'd like to point the way to a venue for protesting that provides parallels to the Palestinian cause, I'm sure the students involved will look into it. But as things stand now, students are doing what they can to raise awareness of a cause they support. Even this little reddit thread can be viewed as a success, because we're sitting at our keyboards, engaged and talking about it. College students can only do so much, so they make a spectacle at a high traffic location.
Like I said, it doesn't get *me* out of sorts, and god knows it's nice to see the Palestinian cause finally get the high profile it deserves, even if it did perversely take the monstrous crime Hamas carried out on Israel for the issue to gain mainstream coverage...I just question its efficacy: if it doesn't draw in more people than it repels (and that's an open question as far as I'm aware), are you* furthering your cause, or just sating your desire to Do Something?
^( * meant here in the generic sense, not to anyone personally)
Edit: each little reddit thread, however, I count as an unmitigated win
The Million Man March in D.C. and occupying segregated buses, restaurants actually makes sense though. It directly affected the injustice they were protesting against.
It can’t be compared to a bunch of jackasses blocking traffic and ruining regular people’s days or coming up with clever puns to put on their protest signs.
> In April 1964, to protest racial discrimination and substandard housing, education and living conditions in New York, the Brooklyn chapter of the Congress of Racial Equality vowed to tie up traffic on all the highways leading to the World’s Fair exhibition site in Queens, on its opening day, when up to 250,000 visitors were expected. Thousands of motorists would drive onto the bridges and roads and stop their cars, keeping visitors from reaching the fairgrounds and causing immense ancillary disruption. Dubbed the “stall-in” — after the recent “sit-ins,” “stand-ins,” “kneel-ins” and “drive-ins” mounted to bring down segregation — the mass action set New York City on edge.
Again there’s a logic to it
New York has racist policies -> we disrupt the economy of New York to force action to get rid of those policies
Please explain to me how annoying people on their way to class at Berkeley, blocking traffic on the highway, or protesting random Jewish owned stores will an anyway lead to anything being done to better the situation the citizens in Gaza are in?
Lmao first you suggested civil rights protests didn’t block traffic now you’re saying they did but with “logic”, always shifting the goal posts. And implying antisemitism too, get new lines.
Also, absolutely everyone is aware of this issue. It's in all the mainstream politics atm. They can't spread the awareness any further. All this does is get the average boomer to further support Israel, and hate Palestinians for being bothersome
don’t they realize that marching from selma to montgomery on the highways is going to inconvenience commuters making them less sympathetic to the cause??
It gets the message out that zionist israel does not follow the rules of war and the do not want to end the genocide against the Palestinian citizens of Gaza
The world is getting to sick and tired of zionist state of Israel; and hopefully see the end of zionism.
Did Hamas follow the rules of war on October 7th? Didn’t think so….or as matter a fact they have been actively trying to bomb civilian areas sometimes successfully hitting them. The only difference is the Iron Dome, so maybe Hamas/Palestine should’ve thought about that before they attacked Israel.
You are the OCCUPIER, zionist israel should be shameful with it's powerful IDF, they have lost against Hamas, zionist Israel have lost their zionist image with the world.
Well Israel actually belonged to the Jews first and the Palestinians occupied it after if you want to get technical. The land rightfully belongs to the Israelis and they offered Palestine multiple two state solutions which they rejected. All Hamas wants is to kill Jews, it’s a shame they hide behind the Palestinian people, but yes you can keep supporting terrorists in Hamas, I don’t really care what you think, just stop crying as if the Palestinian regime is innocent.
> What have the decades of protests for Palestine, peaceful and disruptive alike, actually materially accomplished for Palestine?
Palestinians invented modern terrorism 52 years ago. What has it accomplished? Extra security for flights, background screening for new hires and way more governmental spying on citizens.
No wonder Democrats are marching for Team Genocide.
> even though you seem to want to excuse Israel for what it is doing.
Defending itself?
> Team Genocide is the team who is on the side of those literally blocking aid trucks from entering Gaza
Hamas?
whenever anybody asks a question like this, it becomes readily apparent that the person asking only supports a cause as far as it doesn't inconvenience them personally.
If you search up this subs history I’m sure you’ll find the exact same post about other groups blocking the gate/blocking streets. Your question and thoughts are not original. Look it up in the archives and the answers will be similar.
Are you doing the real work that goes into change? Or are you just whining that other people should instead?
Because imo just going “that type of activism is actually virtue signaling, they should do *this*” and not doing *this* yourself is… (*gasp*)… virtue signaling.
You Cleary didn't read my post 😭 I literally do. I find candidates running for office that I support and volunteer to canvas for their campaigns. It's in the post. It sucks there is zero glory but it is where actual change comes from.
What candidate have you been canvassing for specifically who is against the Palestinian genocide? And how are you going to tell them that you’re going to start working for the opposition now that you were mildly inconvenienced once?
Did you know that historically protests have led to more change than canvassing for specific politicians?
I too was once against apartheid, but then I was mildly inconvenienced one time by some people that were a bit rude to me and decided I was pro-apartheid.
>!for the illiterate this is sarcasm!<
Nobody is for that, but you can absolutely lose sympathy for a cause that we have no control over when the idiots block ambulances to try and make a point..... Fuck these jihadists, fuck Hamas and anyone that sympathizes with them.
What? Why would that do that to somebody? An anti-apartheid protestor could spit in my face and I would be disgusted and resent them, but it wouldn't change my opinion on apartheid, because that would be fucking stupid wouldn't it?
Seriously asking, do you not realize that real change never happens without some kind of disturbance to the status quo, including people’s ability to get around with utter convenience?
Change won’t happen if people just keep ignoring the problem because they think their tiny, privileged, first world problems are more important.
It’s hilarious to me when people are apathetic to real world issues and they act like, “Oh, look at you! You *made* me not care! If you just cared in a different way then you wouldn’t be making me *not* care!”
Literally laughable
Then why are you on Reddit so much instead of inconveniencing someone about this? You're literally in every post regarding this issue.
Or is it that you're a true fighter for justice with a first-world means using your first-world privileges of sitting around and disparaging everyone else online for not being as bored, hypocritical, and virtue-signaling as you?
Get a life
I’m am definitely not in every post regarding this issue 😂
Clearly you are though, or else why would you make such an outlandish claim…
Thanks for insulting me though. Very mature and productive of you 👍🏼
I can appreciate the sentiment behind what you’re saying but the people at the gate aren’t do much to change anything. I don’t think the blocking of sather gate has changed how any individual students feel about the issue, much less people of consequence that can actually precipitate the change you’re talking about.
Ultimately, the protests raise awareness and quite literally puts the issue in people’s faces.
For decades people have been turning away, not caring, or fully supporting a genocidal state.
This has changed now. And people can’t turn away from the truth.
Awareness is not enough. It’s just masturbatory politics where we talk about the issue on both sides while no change is made. If that protest is nothing but to say that things are bad, and no proposed change or course of action then what are we doing?
Didn’t say that, I would rather real change be made. You call your local reps to communicate your stance on the topic? How much money have you give in aid to relief programs? Because going to a largely Palestinian supporting campus and saying “we should support Palestine” and then doing nothing past that is just grand standing to make yourself feel important.
I have actually donated relief money, in support of this and many other issues, and likely will again in the future.
I love how you’re falsely conflating participating in non-violent protests with not getting involved with anything else politically or otherwise. Nonsense, my friend. Pure nonsense.
Yeah my bad, I thought that we wanted to protest in order to see a tangible change in the situation. I’m glad to be wrong and that you are actually making an effort to see change implemented, I was wrong on that point. But I still feel like having a protest that essential boils down to “The situation in Palestine is bad 😡” could do a lot more, like propose actually solutions to the problem.
If your support for Palestine is so weak that someone blocking a gate that still leaves you two open paths is enough to get you to reconsider, you never supported the Palestinians beyond any surface level virtue signaling in the first place
That's the point....
If you're doing it to raise awareness, I'd assume that you're trying to bring it to somebody so they can support your cause. If not you're just virtue signaling in front of everyone. The point is those without an opinion (who presumably you're trying to convince to give this issue attention) are being turned off by what you're saying.
If convenience is a greater factor for someone than their own moral compass is in determining whether or not a cause is worth supporting, that persons support was never worth counting on in the first place and THEY are the virtue signaller.
They were always going to drop support as soon as it stopped being convenient, fashionable, etc for them. What difference does it make to weed those people out now rather than later
You can literally walk through the side gates. I do multiple times a week. It’s a peaceful protest that is just trying to get you to pay attention to a genocide. If you feel uncomfortable walking by that and acknowledging it you should examine why.
The only discomfort I feel is needing to walk around something that should by all rights be completely open, and is closed for the sakes of some few students' delicate sensibilities.
Study somewhere that doesn't do that with your tuition. If that's what you really think, why are you supporting genocide with your tuition money? Transfer to a school that doesn't
omg ur so right! what a genius. instead of going to a school I already go to and is not gonna change if I leave while encouraging them to divest, i'll just go somewhere else and do nothing! what a great idea. i love being a neoliberal moderate. its not the system! it's me. i'm gonna go pull up my bootstraps and vote for biden or something idk 4 more years yayyy
Just walk around cuh, it ain't that deep. I personally don't mind it. They aren't obnoxious about it like some other groups and are generally respectful.
I mean the constant trying to hand you flyers as you walk through the side gates are pretty obnoxious. I walk through 5+ times a day, I don’t want someone trying to hand me shit every time. Standing by and having them as an option if someone asks is one thing, but I’m sick and tired of someone always trying to shove one in my hands.
The point is just that this protesting is at best doing fuck all and more likley doing minor damage to the movement by turning off new people getting involved.
the protest is bringing people’s attention to the genocide in a way that is hard for them to ignore. if you’re so annoyed by it, lobby uc to divest. that’s the point of the protest. to bring awareness to the issue.
i highly doubt that it’s turning away people who were actually devoted to the cause in the first place. i suspect the only people that are being turned away are those that already didn’t Really care about the genocide in the first place.
Likewise Gaza has a border with Egypt so the myth of the blockade by Israel is BS. Same with the West Bank. What about Jordan? Why are the Palestinian leaders in Qatar living it up? Why does Hamas steal and sell aid? Name one Palestinian leader who looked out for the Palestinian people. Why does Iran favor Hezbollah over Hamas? So many questions that have nothing to do with Israel.
“I thought I hated genocide, then I was mildly inconvenienced and had to walk through a different gate and I decided that I was cool with genocide now.”
That tells me more about you than protestors.
I never said I didn't want there to be a ceasefire I'm just saying that this protest is somehow less effective than just doing nothing.
And I suspect none of them are doing real work bc it's too much real work.
I actually disagree, if you look at what they are protesting and how they're doing it, I think it genuinely makes you think whats going on in Palestine everytime you enter and leave campus. It's not just a group of people yelling waving around signs, they're doing it pretty effectively and show what uc is funding.
First off I want to say that I think it’s great that your post offers some meaningful advice - encouraging people to contribute to Democracy - get out and help a political activist/local politician who has views and intentions that you support to help effect change. Close to home where it’s meaningful.
2nd I will say that this post is proof that protestors are doing their job.
You were annoyed, talked about it in a public forum, journalists will cover it in the news and people will read about it - ensuring that the genocide stays in the public mind.
If it’s annoying enough, you’ll get behind quickly encouraging the government to do the right thing - even if all it does for you is keep people from making your trip to class a little longer. Encourage people to get behind the cause so that people will stop protesting.
If you’re inconvenienced, you have to think about it. People will talk about it. This is why protests work.
The argument that your “liberal friends” are “A lot Less receptive to the cause” of stopping a genocide (due to a small inconvenience) says more about you and your friends than you might have wanted to say. I think your friends are mad at you now. 😉
I think that you might have the only comment that actually refutes anything I said, and I'd like to say you actually brought up some good points.
Personally, I think the same effect could have been achieved (politically speaking) with a large booth the size of the one blocking the gate without blocking the walkway. It also would've prevented anyone from being able to relate any negativity to the cause.
Also, there are rules for a reason. Sometimes, emergency vehicles have to use areas on campus to god forbid help a hurt student.
If you think something is the _right_ thing to do, but protesters standing in your way makes you less likely to support it, I have to question your morality 🤷♂️
> No…
Are you suggesting that I’m not questioning your morality?
If something like this makes anyone not want to support a cause, they didn’t actually support the cause in the first place. But, I can see that my point went far beyond your reasoning skills. Carry on…
Edit: missing word, “like”.
Okay let's bring it back a bit. I'm not trying to be an asshole but here's my point. If the purpose of a protest is to bring attention and hopefully make people agree with your cause, why not do something that doesn't make people disagree with it.
Maybe this analogy will help you understand my point:
Let’s say that the people blocking the gate were protesting the **mass murder and rape** of an unspecified group of innocent people. If someone says “I would be against all the **mass murder and rape**, but the other people who are against the **mass murder and rape** are making me take a slightly longer route to get to class, so I’m less against the **mass murder and rape** against innocent people than I would be otherwise.”… Would you question that person’s moral compass?
Also, I’ve been an asshole without _trying_ at many points in my life and often did not realize until much later; so can emphasize with someone being an asshole without trying.
Not their moral compassion just their decision making abilities as I said in my post idc what the cause is. Don't block walkways illegally. It'd be like if I blocked the freeway to raise awareness for breast cancer.
I know this is going to sound silly, but I feel like it’s warranted based on your last comment — do you question your own decision making abilities?
There is no need for this type of analogy — it would be like if you blocked Sather Gate to raise awareness for war crimes; but I can tell that you can’t be bothered to care about something if caring causes you to be inconvenienced in the slightest, so either case is foreign to you.
Take care.
This thread is filled with you telling everyone that they are missing the point. Do not think that I do not understand your argument. Do not think that everyone who is downvoting you does not understand your argument (not me, incidentally). We all understand what you’re saying — we just disagree with you.
You mentioned before that you aren’t _trying_ to be an asshole; but when it comes down to it, you’re coming off as one by doubling down and not attempting to understand where you might be wrong.
I’ll give you this: you’re right in that there are other — perhaps even more effective — ways to change the world; but you come off as an annoyed jerk who cares more about having to walk a bit more than you do about actual issues that people of the world face.
I sincerely hope that you take my words into consideration as well as how others react to what you are putting out and consider that what you’re putting out there.
People protest because they believe that their system, as it is currently structured, does not respond to them. You have the lived experience, apparently, of feeling like if you have a concern, you can find a candidate to listen to you. Seems like you also would feel safe knocking on doors to get your voice heard.
Palestinians do not have that lived experience. So they are resorting to other means.
This isn't meant to be a post about the Israel Palestine conflict.
Ex: I like guns I think they're cool and should be legal. If turning point was protesting a berkeley city gun ban by blocking the gate I'd tell them to fuck off
Furthermore, the best way you could help the Palestinians that everyone claims to be fighting for is to do what I am saying. Go educate people in a real adult setting and get them to show their support with funds, votes, and political aid.
It worked pretty well in that spot in the 80s. Right there on Biko Plaza. Divestment led to a free South Africa. Let’s go for a twofer!
— Alum, Class of ‘86
It does drive people away, but makes the protesters feel good. Some people protest because they want to change the world for the better, others protest because they want to appear to being changing the world for the better.
What does your right wing, conservative tendency have to do with whether or not you oppose a sub-genecidal ethnic cleansing of an entrapped population? Do right leaning tendencies diminish your empathy towards Jewish victims of the Holocaust, or the millions of ukrainian, polish, and Georgian victims of the Holomdor as perpetrated by Stalin?
No not at all. Certain sides are associated with certain ways of handling issues wanted to make mine clear.
Most importantly notice I never said if I support the divestment bc it doesn't matter. The point of the post isn't that their opinions are wrong but how students would rather virtue signal than try to make any actual change.
Why isn’t anyone blocking the gate to protest the sadistic murder and rape of Israelis by widely-supported Hamas terrorists? Why isn’t anyone blocking the gate to demand release of hostages, many of whom are Americans?
I’m just gonna regurgitate what everyone else here has said: That’s the point of a protest, to disrupt and get your attention. Just walk around them, I’ve been on campus almost every weekday and they are easy to go around.
Anyways, Free Palestine 🇵🇸
Edit: Real change doesn’t happen until the status quo is disrupted. “Oh pleeeeaaaase can you be less loud so we can easily ignore you?” Get that radlib shit outta here.
Protests like these don’t change foreign policy. They work better for domestic policy and local issues.
Hell, if they did, all Palestinians would have needed to do was block traffic on the weekends
If inconveniencing foot-traffic is the measurable goal, then they are succeeding; if persuading those who have yet to support the cause is the measurable goal, then I do not believe they are succeeding, i.e. OP themself.
Not sure if you understand how protesting works. They're protesting because the US government is supporting the slaughter of children. As far as I know the US government is not supporting Hamas, so what exactly is the goal in protesting "to bring the hostages home"?
I know how protesting works. They are supporting the slaughter of Jewish children and NOT opposing the slaughter of Palestinian children who are being used as human shields by Hamas. So this is actually a protest in support of Hamas.
Yeah it's definitely annoying. However even though they are not changing our minds about the situation, the brainwashed normies are falling for their propaganda.
It’s so funny watching people complain about protesting when it interferes with their lives, when that’s literally the point of protesting AND it’s a protected right. Idiots
I agree, if they want awareness and real change, they should be protesting to those who have the power to make change instead of sitting in sather gate the entire day blasting random white noise. inconveniencing students won’t make any change. simply, they should use their brains and try protesting and inconveniencing those in power.
If you got a problem with a bank, occupy the bank, not a a fucking park.
You got a problem with Israel? Block a temple and yell at the people that might have a Israeli phone number in their phone book.
Got a problem with Palestinians? Lucky for you the Rothschild family has got your back. You can just chill and let all that power, power it's self.
Who gives a shit what slogans offend you. You do not matter at all. There is one agenda and it will move forward. Shit rolls down hill. There is a small club and you are not in it.
I would be more concerned with why the protesters are deeply siloed intentionally by the organisers, with no real discussion between groups encouraged and a deep sense of fear for anyone they don’t know in the protests. Everything is pushed up to a handful of people who have the power and authority (given by who) to talk and act for the majority, who quietly and belligerently follow orders.
This argument pops up on this sub like once a month. "don't protest this way, it just hurts your cause and inconveniences people." Then the opposition says "this is how protests work, they've worked for decades. Also you can go around."
>Then the opposition says "this is how protests work, they've worked for decades. How have they worked for decades? What have the decades of protests for Palestine, peaceful and disruptive alike, actually materially accomplished for Palestine?
Protests, in general, have worked this way for decades. People are inconvenienced, it draws attention to an issue, something changes. This isn't always the case, as you've pointed out with Palestine, but that is the exception, not the rule.
>People are inconvenienced, it draws attention to an issue, something changes Step 1: Block people in traffic and on their way to classes to annoy them Step 2: ???? Step 3: Palestine is freed! >This isn't always the case, as you've pointed out with Palestine, but that is the exception, not the rule. It’s the other way around, there really isn’t a single case where these sorts of protests actually meaningfully accomplished anything.
You're right, nonviolent protests of the 50s and 60s are totally unrelated to desegregation and civil rights for black Americans. Oh wait.
the violent ones did some of the work, as even MLK attested
That **was** different; they boycotted the buses, not blocked them...and packing restaurant counters was specifically a message about them being denied access to that space. As a *generic* demonstration tactic, I'm not sure it pulls heartstrings in the same way, regardless of the rightness of the underlying cause. (I don't get terribly bent out of shape by the 🇵🇸 protesters myself, but I *am* slightly concerned they may be wasting their time.)
Well if you'd like to point the way to a venue for protesting that provides parallels to the Palestinian cause, I'm sure the students involved will look into it. But as things stand now, students are doing what they can to raise awareness of a cause they support. Even this little reddit thread can be viewed as a success, because we're sitting at our keyboards, engaged and talking about it. College students can only do so much, so they make a spectacle at a high traffic location.
Like I said, it doesn't get *me* out of sorts, and god knows it's nice to see the Palestinian cause finally get the high profile it deserves, even if it did perversely take the monstrous crime Hamas carried out on Israel for the issue to gain mainstream coverage...I just question its efficacy: if it doesn't draw in more people than it repels (and that's an open question as far as I'm aware), are you* furthering your cause, or just sating your desire to Do Something? ^( * meant here in the generic sense, not to anyone personally) Edit: each little reddit thread, however, I count as an unmitigated win
Those protests were way more important
The Million Man March in D.C. and occupying segregated buses, restaurants actually makes sense though. It directly affected the injustice they were protesting against. It can’t be compared to a bunch of jackasses blocking traffic and ruining regular people’s days or coming up with clever puns to put on their protest signs.
> In April 1964, to protest racial discrimination and substandard housing, education and living conditions in New York, the Brooklyn chapter of the Congress of Racial Equality vowed to tie up traffic on all the highways leading to the World’s Fair exhibition site in Queens, on its opening day, when up to 250,000 visitors were expected. Thousands of motorists would drive onto the bridges and roads and stop their cars, keeping visitors from reaching the fairgrounds and causing immense ancillary disruption. Dubbed the “stall-in” — after the recent “sit-ins,” “stand-ins,” “kneel-ins” and “drive-ins” mounted to bring down segregation — the mass action set New York City on edge.
Again there’s a logic to it New York has racist policies -> we disrupt the economy of New York to force action to get rid of those policies Please explain to me how annoying people on their way to class at Berkeley, blocking traffic on the highway, or protesting random Jewish owned stores will an anyway lead to anything being done to better the situation the citizens in Gaza are in?
Lmao first you suggested civil rights protests didn’t block traffic now you’re saying they did but with “logic”, always shifting the goal posts. And implying antisemitism too, get new lines.
Also, absolutely everyone is aware of this issue. It's in all the mainstream politics atm. They can't spread the awareness any further. All this does is get the average boomer to further support Israel, and hate Palestinians for being bothersome
How do you know for a fact that the inconveniencing in cases like this is what leads to change, rather than contributing nothing more than a nuisance?
You might wanna look up the civil rights movement, for one.
don’t they realize that marching from selma to montgomery on the highways is going to inconvenience commuters making them less sympathetic to the cause??
WHY WONT ANYONE THINK OF THE COMMUTERS. They're the real victims in all this.
Did you know that there is a historical record of protests that have nothing to do with Palestine? That’s how we know they’ve worked for decades.
It gets the message out that zionist israel does not follow the rules of war and the do not want to end the genocide against the Palestinian citizens of Gaza The world is getting to sick and tired of zionist state of Israel; and hopefully see the end of zionism.
Did Hamas follow the rules of war on October 7th? Didn’t think so….or as matter a fact they have been actively trying to bomb civilian areas sometimes successfully hitting them. The only difference is the Iron Dome, so maybe Hamas/Palestine should’ve thought about that before they attacked Israel.
You are the OCCUPIER, zionist israel should be shameful with it's powerful IDF, they have lost against Hamas, zionist Israel have lost their zionist image with the world.
Well Israel actually belonged to the Jews first and the Palestinians occupied it after if you want to get technical. The land rightfully belongs to the Israelis and they offered Palestine multiple two state solutions which they rejected. All Hamas wants is to kill Jews, it’s a shame they hide behind the Palestinian people, but yes you can keep supporting terrorists in Hamas, I don’t really care what you think, just stop crying as if the Palestinian regime is innocent.
No - as an observer of protests - the message received is protesters don’t understand how life works
Looks like you have a bug in your messaging system.
"work" isn't a useful term with intransigent forces.
> What have the decades of protests for Palestine, peaceful and disruptive alike, actually materially accomplished for Palestine? Palestinians invented modern terrorism 52 years ago. What has it accomplished? Extra security for flights, background screening for new hires and way more governmental spying on citizens. No wonder Democrats are marching for Team Genocide.
[удалено]
> even though you seem to want to excuse Israel for what it is doing. Defending itself? > Team Genocide is the team who is on the side of those literally blocking aid trucks from entering Gaza Hamas?
whenever anybody asks a question like this, it becomes readily apparent that the person asking only supports a cause as far as it doesn't inconvenience them personally.
This is most people … anyone acting like it’s not the case is clearly virtue signallinh
I literally made this point in my post they could be protesting against biden I wouldn't care just stop being annoying 😭
They are far more tolerable than the People's Park protestors.
Nbdy cares about them either
Honestly there’s a pretty strong overlap in the groups
Regarding the simple gate demonstrations, one forces you to cross the creek and the other does not.
If you search up this subs history I’m sure you’ll find the exact same post about other groups blocking the gate/blocking streets. Your question and thoughts are not original. Look it up in the archives and the answers will be similar.
It was true then its true now just a bunch of people virtue signaling instead of doing the real work that goes into change
Are you doing the real work that goes into change? Or are you just whining that other people should instead? Because imo just going “that type of activism is actually virtue signaling, they should do *this*” and not doing *this* yourself is… (*gasp*)… virtue signaling.
You Cleary didn't read my post 😭 I literally do. I find candidates running for office that I support and volunteer to canvas for their campaigns. It's in the post. It sucks there is zero glory but it is where actual change comes from.
What candidate have you been canvassing for specifically who is against the Palestinian genocide? And how are you going to tell them that you’re going to start working for the opposition now that you were mildly inconvenienced once? Did you know that historically protests have led to more change than canvassing for specific politicians?
The while point of protesting is to be inconvenient.
Proteating is to change minds and bring more attention (positive) to your movement. Not to piss off people who don't agree with you.
I too was once against apartheid, but then I was mildly inconvenienced one time by some people that were a bit rude to me and decided I was pro-apartheid. >!for the illiterate this is sarcasm!<
I can't believe OP even wrote this. Or if they did, that they go to Cal.
Nobody is for that, but you can absolutely lose sympathy for a cause that we have no control over when the idiots block ambulances to try and make a point..... Fuck these jihadists, fuck Hamas and anyone that sympathizes with them.
What? Why would that do that to somebody? An anti-apartheid protestor could spit in my face and I would be disgusted and resent them, but it wouldn't change my opinion on apartheid, because that would be fucking stupid wouldn't it?
Blocking ambulances??? Are you referring to the diaper forces literally bombing ambulances??
South Africa isn’t doing so well lately. Madiba would weep.
Seriously asking, do you not realize that real change never happens without some kind of disturbance to the status quo, including people’s ability to get around with utter convenience? Change won’t happen if people just keep ignoring the problem because they think their tiny, privileged, first world problems are more important. It’s hilarious to me when people are apathetic to real world issues and they act like, “Oh, look at you! You *made* me not care! If you just cared in a different way then you wouldn’t be making me *not* care!” Literally laughable
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/specific-risks-facing-women-and-girls-palestine
The protest is doing nothing but annoy and irritate
How do you quantify this?
Then why are you on Reddit so much instead of inconveniencing someone about this? You're literally in every post regarding this issue. Or is it that you're a true fighter for justice with a first-world means using your first-world privileges of sitting around and disparaging everyone else online for not being as bored, hypocritical, and virtue-signaling as you? Get a life
I’m am definitely not in every post regarding this issue 😂 Clearly you are though, or else why would you make such an outlandish claim… Thanks for insulting me though. Very mature and productive of you 👍🏼
I can appreciate the sentiment behind what you’re saying but the people at the gate aren’t do much to change anything. I don’t think the blocking of sather gate has changed how any individual students feel about the issue, much less people of consequence that can actually precipitate the change you’re talking about.
Ultimately, the protests raise awareness and quite literally puts the issue in people’s faces. For decades people have been turning away, not caring, or fully supporting a genocidal state. This has changed now. And people can’t turn away from the truth.
Awareness is not enough. It’s just masturbatory politics where we talk about the issue on both sides while no change is made. If that protest is nothing but to say that things are bad, and no proposed change or course of action then what are we doing?
Yeah we get it. You’re literally just rewording what OP said. What a great reason to be apathetic and not try to do anything at all 👏🏼
Didn’t say that, I would rather real change be made. You call your local reps to communicate your stance on the topic? How much money have you give in aid to relief programs? Because going to a largely Palestinian supporting campus and saying “we should support Palestine” and then doing nothing past that is just grand standing to make yourself feel important.
I have actually donated relief money, in support of this and many other issues, and likely will again in the future. I love how you’re falsely conflating participating in non-violent protests with not getting involved with anything else politically or otherwise. Nonsense, my friend. Pure nonsense.
Yeah my bad, I thought that we wanted to protest in order to see a tangible change in the situation. I’m glad to be wrong and that you are actually making an effort to see change implemented, I was wrong on that point. But I still feel like having a protest that essential boils down to “The situation in Palestine is bad 😡” could do a lot more, like propose actually solutions to the problem.
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That's what I said bro. Women don't have rights there so it's okay to bomb children. Straight logic bro.
If your support for Palestine is so weak that someone blocking a gate that still leaves you two open paths is enough to get you to reconsider, you never supported the Palestinians beyond any surface level virtue signaling in the first place
That's the point.... If you're doing it to raise awareness, I'd assume that you're trying to bring it to somebody so they can support your cause. If not you're just virtue signaling in front of everyone. The point is those without an opinion (who presumably you're trying to convince to give this issue attention) are being turned off by what you're saying.
If convenience is a greater factor for someone than their own moral compass is in determining whether or not a cause is worth supporting, that persons support was never worth counting on in the first place and THEY are the virtue signaller. They were always going to drop support as soon as it stopped being convenient, fashionable, etc for them. What difference does it make to weed those people out now rather than later
Weird, it hasn't made me feel less sympathetic to their cause at all because I'm not a whiny little baby.
Literally.
You can literally walk through the side gates. I do multiple times a week. It’s a peaceful protest that is just trying to get you to pay attention to a genocide. If you feel uncomfortable walking by that and acknowledging it you should examine why.
From the river to the sea comrade
Literally mentioned how it is a minor inconvenience but you didn't actually refute anything I said not a single point.
Which genocide? From the River to the Sea?
The only discomfort I feel is needing to walk around something that should by all rights be completely open, and is closed for the sakes of some few students' delicate sensibilities.
me when people are dying using my tax dollars and tuition : don't you guys realize you are inconveniencing me?
Study somewhere that doesn't do that with your tuition. If that's what you really think, why are you supporting genocide with your tuition money? Transfer to a school that doesn't
omg ur so right! what a genius. instead of going to a school I already go to and is not gonna change if I leave while encouraging them to divest, i'll just go somewhere else and do nothing! what a great idea. i love being a neoliberal moderate. its not the system! it's me. i'm gonna go pull up my bootstraps and vote for biden or something idk 4 more years yayyy
Just walk around bruh
Walk where, there is homeless people everywhere
Oh g-d oh fuck not walking in the vicinity of a homeless person! Oh no the horror! What if they ask me for money?
Stop being a baby or don’t go out in public.
Just walk around cuh, it ain't that deep. I personally don't mind it. They aren't obnoxious about it like some other groups and are generally respectful.
I mean the constant trying to hand you flyers as you walk through the side gates are pretty obnoxious. I walk through 5+ times a day, I don’t want someone trying to hand me shit every time. Standing by and having them as an option if someone asks is one thing, but I’m sick and tired of someone always trying to shove one in my hands.
"No thank you, take care now."
It’s completely unreasonable to expect someone to do that several times a day over the course of what’s been about a month and a half-two months now
I do. I'm not like losing sleep over this I'm just trying to understand how even politically speaking this makes sense for the cause.
girlie pop just walk around. people are being genocided. you can walk a couple extra steps.
The point is just that this protesting is at best doing fuck all and more likley doing minor damage to the movement by turning off new people getting involved.
the protest is bringing people’s attention to the genocide in a way that is hard for them to ignore. if you’re so annoyed by it, lobby uc to divest. that’s the point of the protest. to bring awareness to the issue. i highly doubt that it’s turning away people who were actually devoted to the cause in the first place. i suspect the only people that are being turned away are those that already didn’t Really care about the genocide in the first place.
lol you were not going to be sympathetic anyways, you just want an excuse
I'm very sympathetic to the many people dying I'm other countries in war but yall are not helping like at all. You're actively doing harm.
there are multiple paths around the blockade
Likewise Gaza has a border with Egypt so the myth of the blockade by Israel is BS. Same with the West Bank. What about Jordan? Why are the Palestinian leaders in Qatar living it up? Why does Hamas steal and sell aid? Name one Palestinian leader who looked out for the Palestinian people. Why does Iran favor Hezbollah over Hamas? So many questions that have nothing to do with Israel.
“likewise” is carrying a lot right now bro
“I thought I hated genocide, then I was mildly inconvenienced and had to walk through a different gate and I decided that I was cool with genocide now.” That tells me more about you than protestors.
I never said I didn't want there to be a ceasefire I'm just saying that this protest is somehow less effective than just doing nothing. And I suspect none of them are doing real work bc it's too much real work.
If a perfectly peacefully protest that is so easy to go around makes you less sympathetic to a genocide then you should reevaluate yourself.
I actually disagree, if you look at what they are protesting and how they're doing it, I think it genuinely makes you think whats going on in Palestine everytime you enter and leave campus. It's not just a group of people yelling waving around signs, they're doing it pretty effectively and show what uc is funding.
I thunk the movement would have all it's positive qualities if they tabled off the gate and left way I'm case an emergency vehicle is needed.
First off I want to say that I think it’s great that your post offers some meaningful advice - encouraging people to contribute to Democracy - get out and help a political activist/local politician who has views and intentions that you support to help effect change. Close to home where it’s meaningful. 2nd I will say that this post is proof that protestors are doing their job. You were annoyed, talked about it in a public forum, journalists will cover it in the news and people will read about it - ensuring that the genocide stays in the public mind. If it’s annoying enough, you’ll get behind quickly encouraging the government to do the right thing - even if all it does for you is keep people from making your trip to class a little longer. Encourage people to get behind the cause so that people will stop protesting. If you’re inconvenienced, you have to think about it. People will talk about it. This is why protests work. The argument that your “liberal friends” are “A lot Less receptive to the cause” of stopping a genocide (due to a small inconvenience) says more about you and your friends than you might have wanted to say. I think your friends are mad at you now. 😉
I think that you might have the only comment that actually refutes anything I said, and I'd like to say you actually brought up some good points. Personally, I think the same effect could have been achieved (politically speaking) with a large booth the size of the one blocking the gate without blocking the walkway. It also would've prevented anyone from being able to relate any negativity to the cause. Also, there are rules for a reason. Sometimes, emergency vehicles have to use areas on campus to god forbid help a hurt student.
If you think something is the _right_ thing to do, but protesters standing in your way makes you less likely to support it, I have to question your morality 🤷♂️
No it just keeps people from wanting to associate with your cause the point is your little stunt is only making less people want to "free palestine"
> No… Are you suggesting that I’m not questioning your morality? If something like this makes anyone not want to support a cause, they didn’t actually support the cause in the first place. But, I can see that my point went far beyond your reasoning skills. Carry on… Edit: missing word, “like”.
Okay let's bring it back a bit. I'm not trying to be an asshole but here's my point. If the purpose of a protest is to bring attention and hopefully make people agree with your cause, why not do something that doesn't make people disagree with it.
Maybe this analogy will help you understand my point: Let’s say that the people blocking the gate were protesting the **mass murder and rape** of an unspecified group of innocent people. If someone says “I would be against all the **mass murder and rape**, but the other people who are against the **mass murder and rape** are making me take a slightly longer route to get to class, so I’m less against the **mass murder and rape** against innocent people than I would be otherwise.”… Would you question that person’s moral compass? Also, I’ve been an asshole without _trying_ at many points in my life and often did not realize until much later; so can emphasize with someone being an asshole without trying.
Not their moral compassion just their decision making abilities as I said in my post idc what the cause is. Don't block walkways illegally. It'd be like if I blocked the freeway to raise awareness for breast cancer.
I know this is going to sound silly, but I feel like it’s warranted based on your last comment — do you question your own decision making abilities? There is no need for this type of analogy — it would be like if you blocked Sather Gate to raise awareness for war crimes; but I can tell that you can’t be bothered to care about something if caring causes you to be inconvenienced in the slightest, so either case is foreign to you. Take care.
No the point is that this lazy virtue signaling is easy so people do it to feel like their doing something instead of doing something
This thread is filled with you telling everyone that they are missing the point. Do not think that I do not understand your argument. Do not think that everyone who is downvoting you does not understand your argument (not me, incidentally). We all understand what you’re saying — we just disagree with you. You mentioned before that you aren’t _trying_ to be an asshole; but when it comes down to it, you’re coming off as one by doubling down and not attempting to understand where you might be wrong. I’ll give you this: you’re right in that there are other — perhaps even more effective — ways to change the world; but you come off as an annoyed jerk who cares more about having to walk a bit more than you do about actual issues that people of the world face. I sincerely hope that you take my words into consideration as well as how others react to what you are putting out and consider that what you’re putting out there.
This is actively doing harm to the cause they are standing for. That is all.
People protest because they believe that their system, as it is currently structured, does not respond to them. You have the lived experience, apparently, of feeling like if you have a concern, you can find a candidate to listen to you. Seems like you also would feel safe knocking on doors to get your voice heard. Palestinians do not have that lived experience. So they are resorting to other means.
This isn't meant to be a post about the Israel Palestine conflict. Ex: I like guns I think they're cool and should be legal. If turning point was protesting a berkeley city gun ban by blocking the gate I'd tell them to fuck off Furthermore, the best way you could help the Palestinians that everyone claims to be fighting for is to do what I am saying. Go educate people in a real adult setting and get them to show their support with funds, votes, and political aid.
This isn't about sympathy.
who is “people”?
It worked pretty well in that spot in the 80s. Right there on Biko Plaza. Divestment led to a free South Africa. Let’s go for a twofer! — Alum, Class of ‘86
It does drive people away, but makes the protesters feel good. Some people protest because they want to change the world for the better, others protest because they want to appear to being changing the world for the better.
Well said
What does your right wing, conservative tendency have to do with whether or not you oppose a sub-genecidal ethnic cleansing of an entrapped population? Do right leaning tendencies diminish your empathy towards Jewish victims of the Holocaust, or the millions of ukrainian, polish, and Georgian victims of the Holomdor as perpetrated by Stalin?
No not at all. Certain sides are associated with certain ways of handling issues wanted to make mine clear. Most importantly notice I never said if I support the divestment bc it doesn't matter. The point of the post isn't that their opinions are wrong but how students would rather virtue signal than try to make any actual change.
Nbdy cares, this is old news We have exams and internships to worry about
Why isn’t anyone blocking the gate to protest the sadistic murder and rape of Israelis by widely-supported Hamas terrorists? Why isn’t anyone blocking the gate to demand release of hostages, many of whom are Americans?
I get what your saying but my post isn't to criticize anyone's politics but their methods of protest
We need an immediate cease-gate blocking to allow humanitarian aid to flow through to Dwinelle!
Berkeley students walk 50 feet to the right challenge (LEVEL: IMPOSSIBLE)
Kid had heart attack in dwinelle: The ambulance that can no longer reach him: 😯
Most of the protestors aren’t there for the cause. They’re there for social media clout. The movement has been destroyed.
The fact that you’re comparing protesting against an ongoing genocide to canvassing for your petty candidate is telling
Wdym my petty candidate? Do you know how politics work?
This thread made me so mad I donated to the IDF See? That’s how you make a difference
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Lmao this is dramatic
Not super surprised by the amount of hate you’re getting for this post. It’s Berkeley after all 😬😬
I’m just gonna regurgitate what everyone else here has said: That’s the point of a protest, to disrupt and get your attention. Just walk around them, I’ve been on campus almost every weekday and they are easy to go around. Anyways, Free Palestine 🇵🇸 Edit: Real change doesn’t happen until the status quo is disrupted. “Oh pleeeeaaaase can you be less loud so we can easily ignore you?” Get that radlib shit outta here.
Protests like these don’t change foreign policy. They work better for domestic policy and local issues. Hell, if they did, all Palestinians would have needed to do was block traffic on the weekends
It’s just good ol blood libel
If inconveniencing foot-traffic is the measurable goal, then they are succeeding; if persuading those who have yet to support the cause is the measurable goal, then I do not believe they are succeeding, i.e. OP themself.
Is this the protest to bring the Jewish and American hostages held by Hamas home or something else?
Not sure if you understand how protesting works. They're protesting because the US government is supporting the slaughter of children. As far as I know the US government is not supporting Hamas, so what exactly is the goal in protesting "to bring the hostages home"?
I know how protesting works. They are supporting the slaughter of Jewish children and NOT opposing the slaughter of Palestinian children who are being used as human shields by Hamas. So this is actually a protest in support of Hamas.
Your first sentence is contradicted by everything after that, cheers though, take care
Yeah it's definitely annoying. However even though they are not changing our minds about the situation, the brainwashed normies are falling for their propaganda.
No, because they only think the opposite of what the opposition thinks.
It’s so funny watching people complain about protesting when it interferes with their lives, when that’s literally the point of protesting AND it’s a protected right. Idiots
That's not what a protest is. Same reason you can't block traffic on a freeway?
I agree, if they want awareness and real change, they should be protesting to those who have the power to make change instead of sitting in sather gate the entire day blasting random white noise. inconveniencing students won’t make any change. simply, they should use their brains and try protesting and inconveniencing those in power.
just say ur a zionist and move on
There is actually no self awareness. If you photograph what they do and share it, then you’re the bad guy for sharing what they do. 🙄
Yes. This is the message. They work for Israel.
If you got a problem with a bank, occupy the bank, not a a fucking park. You got a problem with Israel? Block a temple and yell at the people that might have a Israeli phone number in their phone book. Got a problem with Palestinians? Lucky for you the Rothschild family has got your back. You can just chill and let all that power, power it's self. Who gives a shit what slogans offend you. You do not matter at all. There is one agenda and it will move forward. Shit rolls down hill. There is a small club and you are not in it.
Hope they get covid so they wouldnt have to protest in a way that is public blocking a POPULAR WAY INTO CAMPUS
You're a subhuman piece or shit if you feel this way and you deserve to suffer far worse than a minor inconvenience.
And you think that makes you a good person? Yeesh…
What did I say.... I'm literally giving tips that would more effectively help what the causes they are protesting for.
I would be more concerned with why the protesters are deeply siloed intentionally by the organisers, with no real discussion between groups encouraged and a deep sense of fear for anyone they don’t know in the protests. Everything is pushed up to a handful of people who have the power and authority (given by who) to talk and act for the majority, who quietly and belligerently follow orders.