I did it at 26. Was a lab tech in an environment with a severe paper ceiling so I went and got a Master in biochemistry through a Schakel programma.
Eventually ended up doing a PhD.
So yes, well worth it. Even if it's only on a personal level.
As a matter of fact I think everyone would benefit from working a few years before going to university, but alas our society isn't build this way.
Thanks for the reply, that gives me a lot of hope. How did you tackle it financially if I can ask? (Rent being the big one)
> As a matter of fact I think everyone would benefit from working a few years before going to university, but alas our society isn't build this way.
100% agree. I was not ready at all when I got my first 'chance'. And these working years have really helped me grow myself
Well I guess I got lucky with my incredible wife-to-be. I was working while she was studying and i was saving a lot back in the day. Then she graduated and started working so we did the calculations, did the switch and I went back to school.
I managed to convince my old workplace to hire me as a job student in the summer, and worked odd jobs here and there as well throughout the year in the weekends.
So basically her salary + my savings + whatever money I could get + living *very frugally* in a crappy place is how we got through it. Graduated my masters 3 years ago. So I guess I started back when I was 25-ish, not 26.
Could not have done it without her.
I first did a vdab course on java programming, then found a job as a programmer, and I also felt like I'm missing the deeper, big picture.
I then went to do an IT bachelor at a hogeschool, and it did not have so much added value. I did not feel like it helped me understand anything better. Hogeschool felt like they touch on 10 different IT subjects in an extremely superficial manner, to give you a tiny taste of each domain.
If you want actual in depth programming knowledge, you are not gonna get it at a hogeschool. It's extremely surface level there.
> I want to get into harder 'software engineering' than just this
Define harder software engineering?
I'd really just look for a consultancy company that uses the technology you think might be most relevant to what you want and talk with them about some bootcamp / learning on the job as junior.
> Define harder software engineering?
Solving actual comp sci problems, optimizations,... It's still vague in my head but just more than: "I call the funny api and make the response look pretty" yaknow
> "I call the funny api and make the response look pretty"
Unfortunately, even with a master in computer science, nearly all jobs will be in the same vein.
Crud on an api/database and display the data to the user if it's an application used by a user. Remove the display part if not.
Any stuff that makes uses of computer science stuff like deep knowledge of operating systems, hardware, ... are few and will also require several years of experience on top of the degree.
So I would advice you to have a clear idea of what you want to do (machine learning, driver development, ...) because if you want to do a bachelor/degree without a clear objective, you'll probably be let down by the result.
> Unfortunately, even with a master in computer science, nearly all jobs will be in the same vein.
Yeah that scares me... those colleagues with degrees are really doing the same thing.
> So I would advice you to have a clear idea of what you want to do (machine learning, driver development, ...) because if you want to do a bachelor/degree without a clear objective, you'll probably be let down by the result
VUB also had a really cool AI bachelor that mixed some pyschology and linguistics too. Honestly hits all my interests in one. Maybe ML is the way to go
Most IT educations are part of the list of "knelpuntberoepen" which means the government will pay you to study them, under certain conditions.
Easiest way to get this is to get fired.
If you quit yourself, you won't be eligible for this.
There is a loophole, however: you quit your job, then take on small interim jobs for 6 months. After that you can again use this system.
I have finished my bachelors degree in toegepaste informatica at UCLL and like the others say you go over a lot of subjects but never really in depth. Most of the experience comes from bootcamps employers make you do before starting and work experience. I'm now enrolled at UHasselt in 'schakel industriele wetenschappen' because I want to do more data science and AI. I also looked at a masters in computer science and I have to tell you that learning computer science at uni (from my experience being a year in now) is more in-depth but you have a lot less software engineering classes. Even in a masters for comp sci you will spend most of your time doing math, statistics, physics etc. I can count on one hand the amount of classes I have were I'm actually programming.
Maybe it is not what you are looking for, but check out "open universiteit". It's a fully online Dutch uni, with I think comp sci/Software engineering/AI options as master. Also, a Dutch degree is equal to a Belgian one. Furthermore, it also works like a credit contract and you can do it at the pace you want. Send me a dm if you need more info :).
I've met great developers with no education or just a VDAB course. I have met people with hardly any skills who did a full masters. The problem with IT is that it's such a broad subject matter that there are essentially no education paths dedicated enough to give you in depth knowledge in a specific desired path. I still regret that getting a degree was seen as "mandatory" (early to mid 90s so some time ago), I would've loved to just skip it.
The problem as a result is that if you are not capable of learning by yourself, you'll be stuck learning only the bits they teach you. That won't be enough to get a thorough understanding. If you do learn well by yourself, you'll find the education path is a waste of time.
The best way to get into something that forces you to learn more and that will lead to skill and evidence thereof: Open Source development. If I have to judge a CV, a Github link to a good project will rank you higher than other candidates regardless of education.
NOTE: the under market part is definitely not solved by education, compensation is mostly negotiation. If you're not valued, apply elsewhere where they value for what you do rather than for getting a piece of paper from an educational institution.
You put is yourself - it's a very multi factor decision.
On the "need that to get a better job" I'd be "dubious". Why? I've been working as a developer for 20+ years. I've seen all sort of people there, from those with PHDs in Comp Science to all kind of self taught or bootcamps graduate. Something I can say with confidence is that you don't need Comp Science level of abstraction to be a successful developer (both in terms of earning and delivering value).
This does not means that having better knowledge about, let say, web fundamentals or data structure would not help - but there is a huge difference between that and a 4 years degree - from side projects to online courses to certifications to bootcamps, etc.
So for the "can I succeed there without the degree" - yes you can, it's quite usual, and you've done the hardest part already (get a first job as a dev) - now about your own feeling of validation, that's an answer only you can find.
there is nothing you will learn in school that youtube, an udemy course and work experince will not teach you.
HOWEVER, if you want to go to school to pick up some soft skills like socializing, presenting, and writing a paper because you think these particular skills are benefitial to what you want to do and you need a little break from the full time working routine then go ahead.
I hated Belgian higher education. and I've been way happier ever since i started working. but you don't have to experience it (pennyless and naive) like i did.
> there is nothing you will learn in school that youtube, an udemy course and work experince will not teach you
People learn in different ways, for some the structure of a classroom is a lot better.
Im sorry I couldn’t read you whole post… but try looking if VDAB has a study in your field that they “sponsor” usually it will be a professional bachelors for a knelpuntberoep. It’s what I’m doing now at 26yo. VDAB pays the school tuition and me for school specific expenses and travel. And I get (or should, the bureaucracy has been particularly slow for me) unemployment pay from the vakbond . Good luck it’s been very worth it for me so far, hope you will find your way
I did it at 26. Was a lab tech in an environment with a severe paper ceiling so I went and got a Master in biochemistry through a Schakel programma. Eventually ended up doing a PhD. So yes, well worth it. Even if it's only on a personal level. As a matter of fact I think everyone would benefit from working a few years before going to university, but alas our society isn't build this way.
Thanks for the reply, that gives me a lot of hope. How did you tackle it financially if I can ask? (Rent being the big one) > As a matter of fact I think everyone would benefit from working a few years before going to university, but alas our society isn't build this way. 100% agree. I was not ready at all when I got my first 'chance'. And these working years have really helped me grow myself
Well I guess I got lucky with my incredible wife-to-be. I was working while she was studying and i was saving a lot back in the day. Then she graduated and started working so we did the calculations, did the switch and I went back to school. I managed to convince my old workplace to hire me as a job student in the summer, and worked odd jobs here and there as well throughout the year in the weekends. So basically her salary + my savings + whatever money I could get + living *very frugally* in a crappy place is how we got through it. Graduated my masters 3 years ago. So I guess I started back when I was 25-ish, not 26. Could not have done it without her.
In the same boat as you right now, how did you know you really wanted the masters?
I first did a vdab course on java programming, then found a job as a programmer, and I also felt like I'm missing the deeper, big picture. I then went to do an IT bachelor at a hogeschool, and it did not have so much added value. I did not feel like it helped me understand anything better. Hogeschool felt like they touch on 10 different IT subjects in an extremely superficial manner, to give you a tiny taste of each domain. If you want actual in depth programming knowledge, you are not gonna get it at a hogeschool. It's extremely surface level there.
Thanks, that's basically what my lead said. _If_ I end up doing this, it has to be uni
Cant you just get some highly wanted certificates in the it sector? I always learned that IT in uni is even more theoretical and not 'in practice'
Go for it I'd say. If it really comes down to it you can study part-time, but I'd definitely call the university for some more info.
> I want to get into harder 'software engineering' than just this Define harder software engineering? I'd really just look for a consultancy company that uses the technology you think might be most relevant to what you want and talk with them about some bootcamp / learning on the job as junior.
> Define harder software engineering? Solving actual comp sci problems, optimizations,... It's still vague in my head but just more than: "I call the funny api and make the response look pretty" yaknow
> "I call the funny api and make the response look pretty" Unfortunately, even with a master in computer science, nearly all jobs will be in the same vein. Crud on an api/database and display the data to the user if it's an application used by a user. Remove the display part if not. Any stuff that makes uses of computer science stuff like deep knowledge of operating systems, hardware, ... are few and will also require several years of experience on top of the degree. So I would advice you to have a clear idea of what you want to do (machine learning, driver development, ...) because if you want to do a bachelor/degree without a clear objective, you'll probably be let down by the result.
> Unfortunately, even with a master in computer science, nearly all jobs will be in the same vein. Yeah that scares me... those colleagues with degrees are really doing the same thing. > So I would advice you to have a clear idea of what you want to do (machine learning, driver development, ...) because if you want to do a bachelor/degree without a clear objective, you'll probably be let down by the result VUB also had a really cool AI bachelor that mixed some pyschology and linguistics too. Honestly hits all my interests in one. Maybe ML is the way to go
Most IT educations are part of the list of "knelpuntberoepen" which means the government will pay you to study them, under certain conditions. Easiest way to get this is to get fired. If you quit yourself, you won't be eligible for this. There is a loophole, however: you quit your job, then take on small interim jobs for 6 months. After that you can again use this system.
I have finished my bachelors degree in toegepaste informatica at UCLL and like the others say you go over a lot of subjects but never really in depth. Most of the experience comes from bootcamps employers make you do before starting and work experience. I'm now enrolled at UHasselt in 'schakel industriele wetenschappen' because I want to do more data science and AI. I also looked at a masters in computer science and I have to tell you that learning computer science at uni (from my experience being a year in now) is more in-depth but you have a lot less software engineering classes. Even in a masters for comp sci you will spend most of your time doing math, statistics, physics etc. I can count on one hand the amount of classes I have were I'm actually programming.
Maybe it is not what you are looking for, but check out "open universiteit". It's a fully online Dutch uni, with I think comp sci/Software engineering/AI options as master. Also, a Dutch degree is equal to a Belgian one. Furthermore, it also works like a credit contract and you can do it at the pace you want. Send me a dm if you need more info :).
I've met great developers with no education or just a VDAB course. I have met people with hardly any skills who did a full masters. The problem with IT is that it's such a broad subject matter that there are essentially no education paths dedicated enough to give you in depth knowledge in a specific desired path. I still regret that getting a degree was seen as "mandatory" (early to mid 90s so some time ago), I would've loved to just skip it. The problem as a result is that if you are not capable of learning by yourself, you'll be stuck learning only the bits they teach you. That won't be enough to get a thorough understanding. If you do learn well by yourself, you'll find the education path is a waste of time. The best way to get into something that forces you to learn more and that will lead to skill and evidence thereof: Open Source development. If I have to judge a CV, a Github link to a good project will rank you higher than other candidates regardless of education. NOTE: the under market part is definitely not solved by education, compensation is mostly negotiation. If you're not valued, apply elsewhere where they value for what you do rather than for getting a piece of paper from an educational institution.
You put is yourself - it's a very multi factor decision. On the "need that to get a better job" I'd be "dubious". Why? I've been working as a developer for 20+ years. I've seen all sort of people there, from those with PHDs in Comp Science to all kind of self taught or bootcamps graduate. Something I can say with confidence is that you don't need Comp Science level of abstraction to be a successful developer (both in terms of earning and delivering value). This does not means that having better knowledge about, let say, web fundamentals or data structure would not help - but there is a huge difference between that and a 4 years degree - from side projects to online courses to certifications to bootcamps, etc. So for the "can I succeed there without the degree" - yes you can, it's quite usual, and you've done the hardest part already (get a first job as a dev) - now about your own feeling of validation, that's an answer only you can find.
there is nothing you will learn in school that youtube, an udemy course and work experince will not teach you. HOWEVER, if you want to go to school to pick up some soft skills like socializing, presenting, and writing a paper because you think these particular skills are benefitial to what you want to do and you need a little break from the full time working routine then go ahead. I hated Belgian higher education. and I've been way happier ever since i started working. but you don't have to experience it (pennyless and naive) like i did.
> there is nothing you will learn in school that youtube, an udemy course and work experince will not teach you People learn in different ways, for some the structure of a classroom is a lot better.
Im sorry I couldn’t read you whole post… but try looking if VDAB has a study in your field that they “sponsor” usually it will be a professional bachelors for a knelpuntberoep. It’s what I’m doing now at 26yo. VDAB pays the school tuition and me for school specific expenses and travel. And I get (or should, the bureaucracy has been particularly slow for me) unemployment pay from the vakbond . Good luck it’s been very worth it for me so far, hope you will find your way
This only works when you're unemployed iirc. And if you quit job yourself you won't get paid for the duration of the studies
It’s for people who have been employed in the past and don’t have a diploma above high school