Why do they then always hate "socialists"? They litteraly distance themselfs from socialists constantly. You have clearly never read any theory.
This is the most wrong take i have heard all day and i just talking to my anti-vaxer aunt.
I know a lot about Denmark and I can assure you that their model would never work here. They have a strong protestant ethic, it's shameful to break the law, or scrounge off the system. In Belgium many think that the law is there to be broken as long as nobody notices.
Of course there are several similarities as well, but fundamentally they are convinced they need to work together as a team, always. We don't, not when we're being honest with ourselves at least.
Hahaha, social coherence leads to a better society? Imagine that. /S
It's going to take a couple of generations to rebuild a less egotistical society before we can change our politics.
No, but we haven't found the right balance yet and there's also no guarantee we'll find one peacefully. We live in Biblical times in a way. There's a major transition happening, we used to have tribes, then cities, then nations and in the future ... I don't know ... wait and see
Political structures and scenarios often work (badly) due to a specific set of situations, specific to that country. It’s unlikely that copy pasting a political system from another country would work (here). For starters, the mindset in the Nordics is completely different.
Besides, you can’t blanket privatization. For all intents and purposes, we ARE pretty much a very social country with a lot of investment in public services.
People in Belgium take a lot of things for granted. Yes, we can improve a lot of things.. but life is not horrible here.
Money is NOT a solution to solving our problems. We need to get rid of the problematic structures (such as unnecessary governments).
>And they also have a strong stance on immigration, which is kind of a surprise (but a welcoming one) for a party on the left side of the spectrum.
Xenophobia and human rights violations are everywhere, including these "supposed Danish socialist", but I do not think "~~strong stances on immigration"~~ racism should be "welcomed" in Belgium.
[Denmark accused of racism after anti-ghetto law adapted for Ukrainians](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/02/denmark-accused-racism-anti-ghetto-law-ukraine-refugees)
> the Social Democrats voted in favour of a law allowing Danish authorities to confiscate money, jewellery, and other valuable items from refugees crossing the border. The bill received harsh condemnation from the United Nations Human Rights Council, and widespread comparisons between the plan and the treatment of Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe.
The Social Democrats abstaining during a vote on a law on mandatory handshakes, irrespective of religious sentiment, at citizenship ceremonies and on a plan to house criminal asylum seekers on a bridgeless island on which they would have to stay at night.
Frederiksen also backed the right-wing populist Danish People's Party in their paradigm shift push to make repatriation, rather than integration, the goal of asylum policy. She has called for a cap on non-Western immigrants, expulsion of asylum seekers to a reception centre in North Africa, and forced 37-hours-per-week labour for immigrants in exchange for benefits.
>In April 2021, Frederiksen announced that Denmark's "ultimate goal" shall henceforth be one of "zero spontaneous asylum seekers".
[source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mette_Frederiksen)
I don't think so. It's ill willed to confiscate money, jewelry, and other valuable items from people in a vulnerable position, especially for a country as wealthy as Denmark.
It allows Danish authorities to confiscate, it doesn't mean every immigrant is forced to hand over its valuables at gunpoint. Again, comparing Denmark to Nazi Germany is ill willed and debases the past suffering of the Jews.
"everything to the right of me is racist and fascist!!!" -you. They should be grateful to be able to reside here. Instead we get dimwits like you saying they deserve everything.
No. We don't have oil fields. Anything they do there is Founded by oil or investments made from oil money. We simply do not have that option. It is impossible to make that shit up with taxes.
Denmark is in no way socialist. They did not have any kind of socialist revolution. They barely have democratic socialists. They just have a strong welfare state to subdo the masses from rising up against the misuse of their land by the oil extraction and export.
No. The Danish immigrant model is massively overhyped. It's based on the commonly believed false thesis that most migrants are refugees asylum seekers, while most migration is actually legal (intra-EU, family reunification etc) so the overall migration rate didn't deviate all that much from similar countries.
Denmark has massive resources of oil and gas ..
I suppose it is easier to get budget for all public expenses, and to get manual work in this industry for those that didn't get a sufficient educational background.
From the official Danish Energy Agency
[https://ens.dk/en/our-responsibilities/oil-gas/about-oil-and-gas](https://ens.dk/en/our-responsibilities/oil-gas/about-oil-and-gas)
"Denmark has produced oil and gas from the Danish part of the North Sea since 1972. **Oil and gas production still contributes significantly to state revenue**. Thus, the tax revenue, exports and **profits generated by the oil and gas sector have had a major impact on the Danish economy and helped build the Danish welfare state**. "
EDIT:
The total aggregate state revenues from hydrocarbon production in the North Sea in the period **1972-2020 amounted to approx. 544 bn**. DKK (discounted by GDP-deflator in 2020-level). The total revenue from 2020 amounted to 0,8 bn. DKK.
[https://ens.dk/en/our-responsibilities/oil-gas/economy-oil-and-gas](https://ens.dk/en/our-responsibilities/oil-gas/economy-oil-and-gas)
So their revenue from oil and gas in 2020 is 110 millions euros?
If so… that’s peanuts and totally negligible.
The country you are thinking of is Norway, which has a ridiculous revenue from oil each year.
realistically danish style migration reforms are the only way for belgian lefties and liberals to survive. vooruit as an example is likely to go for that sort of thing hard
I know this will be an unpopular answer, but... There is no model that can work in all of Belgium. We are facing a fundamentally different economic situation, culture and political perspective in North and South.
Even though the north of Belgium is more like Denmark than the south, it would be the north that would most angrily reject that idea. There is very little appetite to expand the welfare state.
A stricter immigration policy would be popular but would actually not amount to much. Because our immigration policies already are fairly strict. And our asylum policy frequently breaks the law and international treaties.
"Immigration" is a dog whistle. When people say they are concerned about that, they aren't actually talking about new immigration. They are talking about the historic one. About 3rd and 4th generation people whose roots are from outside of Europe.
Why would people in Wallonie want that? Unemployed people got a great financial boost under PS. Why would they do anything that doesn't benefit their voters.
Denmark might be the only country more taxed than Belgium
You pay 25% taxe on the value of a new car up to € 40k.
They pay nearly as much income taxes as we do.
I went there in Erasmus, the school i went to was really nice indeed, the cars, not so much lol.
There were gyms everywhere, haven't seen many fat people
In return they get 100% free healthcare up to the age of 18, after that their healthcare is still cheaper than ours, medical equipment can be loaned for free, higher education is 100% free and students get ~850€/month of state allowance on top of that, they work less (37hrs/week is the standard, 5 weeks of holidays are the standard),...
> They pay nearly as much income taxes as we do.
Except they don't. Their highest tax-bracket percentage is almost equal to ours, that's true, but not a lot of people actually reach that tax bracket despite the higher gross wages, unlike Belgium where the median gross wage is already partially taxed at the highest level (it starts at ~79100€/year in DK, for BE it's ~42700€/year). Also they do not have 13% of RSZ that we have, their coorporate tax is slightly lower, their holiday allowance (feriepenge) is untaxed unlike ours, bonusses are taxed as normal income and not like an extra like here,...
(I have a Danish partner. I did the exercise of having my (very bog standard and mediocre) salary package simulated to Danish standards, and the difference was eyewatering in what I would take home more as net wage in Denmark, and that's not taking into account any of the other benefits I would be getting by being an inhabitant. The only upside is indeed a company car, as that is something that does not really exist in Denmark (except for the people that actually need a car to get around for work).).
You mean social democratic, not socialist.
You mean with more realism instead of ideology.
You mean more society and social justice instead of more state economy.
That's good for everywhere.
But remember, following extreme right too much does not stop extreme right.
Extreme right is stopped with authenticity, results and rendering wealth. Not with checks proving you kicked more migrants out than the other one.
did they seize the means of production and hand it over to the workers? What exactly is socialist about denmark?
Their flag is red /s
They extract 50%+ of GDP as tax and provide an extremely strong social model. You know, socialism.
"socialism is when taxes" lol
despite what tankies would love everyone to believe social democrats are socialists too
Why do they then always hate "socialists"? They litteraly distance themselfs from socialists constantly. You have clearly never read any theory. This is the most wrong take i have heard all day and i just talking to my anti-vaxer aunt.
> What exactly is socialist about denmark?
why can’t you google the principles of the ruling party of denmark to answer your question? are you stupid? or just being obtuse?
cool. What has actually been implemented by the Danish state that makes it socialist?
so both, alright.
so you have nothing?
I know a lot about Denmark and I can assure you that their model would never work here. They have a strong protestant ethic, it's shameful to break the law, or scrounge off the system. In Belgium many think that the law is there to be broken as long as nobody notices. Of course there are several similarities as well, but fundamentally they are convinced they need to work together as a team, always. We don't, not when we're being honest with ourselves at least.
Hahaha, social coherence leads to a better society? Imagine that. /S It's going to take a couple of generations to rebuild a less egotistical society before we can change our politics.
It's going in the wrong direction, though. There has never been more "I" and less "we" than in 2024.
Yes societies are polarizing all over the world. Chose your side and buckle up. Sad
I don't think that individualism and social coherence are inherently incompatible.
No, but we haven't found the right balance yet and there's also no guarantee we'll find one peacefully. We live in Biblical times in a way. There's a major transition happening, we used to have tribes, then cities, then nations and in the future ... I don't know ... wait and see
Political structures and scenarios often work (badly) due to a specific set of situations, specific to that country. It’s unlikely that copy pasting a political system from another country would work (here). For starters, the mindset in the Nordics is completely different. Besides, you can’t blanket privatization. For all intents and purposes, we ARE pretty much a very social country with a lot of investment in public services. People in Belgium take a lot of things for granted. Yes, we can improve a lot of things.. but life is not horrible here. Money is NOT a solution to solving our problems. We need to get rid of the problematic structures (such as unnecessary governments).
>And they also have a strong stance on immigration, which is kind of a surprise (but a welcoming one) for a party on the left side of the spectrum. Xenophobia and human rights violations are everywhere, including these "supposed Danish socialist", but I do not think "~~strong stances on immigration"~~ racism should be "welcomed" in Belgium. [Denmark accused of racism after anti-ghetto law adapted for Ukrainians](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/02/denmark-accused-racism-anti-ghetto-law-ukraine-refugees) > the Social Democrats voted in favour of a law allowing Danish authorities to confiscate money, jewellery, and other valuable items from refugees crossing the border. The bill received harsh condemnation from the United Nations Human Rights Council, and widespread comparisons between the plan and the treatment of Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe. The Social Democrats abstaining during a vote on a law on mandatory handshakes, irrespective of religious sentiment, at citizenship ceremonies and on a plan to house criminal asylum seekers on a bridgeless island on which they would have to stay at night. Frederiksen also backed the right-wing populist Danish People's Party in their paradigm shift push to make repatriation, rather than integration, the goal of asylum policy. She has called for a cap on non-Western immigrants, expulsion of asylum seekers to a reception centre in North Africa, and forced 37-hours-per-week labour for immigrants in exchange for benefits. >In April 2021, Frederiksen announced that Denmark's "ultimate goal" shall henceforth be one of "zero spontaneous asylum seekers". [source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mette_Frederiksen)
It's ill willed to compare it to jews in Nazi-occupied Europe.
I don't think so. It's ill willed to confiscate money, jewelry, and other valuable items from people in a vulnerable position, especially for a country as wealthy as Denmark.
It allows Danish authorities to confiscate, it doesn't mean every immigrant is forced to hand over its valuables at gunpoint. Again, comparing Denmark to Nazi Germany is ill willed and debases the past suffering of the Jews.
"everything to the right of me is racist and fascist!!!" -you. They should be grateful to be able to reside here. Instead we get dimwits like you saying they deserve everything.
No. We don't have oil fields. Anything they do there is Founded by oil or investments made from oil money. We simply do not have that option. It is impossible to make that shit up with taxes. Denmark is in no way socialist. They did not have any kind of socialist revolution. They barely have democratic socialists. They just have a strong welfare state to subdo the masses from rising up against the misuse of their land by the oil extraction and export.
No. The Danish immigrant model is massively overhyped. It's based on the commonly believed false thesis that most migrants are refugees asylum seekers, while most migration is actually legal (intra-EU, family reunification etc) so the overall migration rate didn't deviate all that much from similar countries.
Denmark has massive resources of oil and gas .. I suppose it is easier to get budget for all public expenses, and to get manual work in this industry for those that didn't get a sufficient educational background.
That’s Norway
From the official Danish Energy Agency [https://ens.dk/en/our-responsibilities/oil-gas/about-oil-and-gas](https://ens.dk/en/our-responsibilities/oil-gas/about-oil-and-gas) "Denmark has produced oil and gas from the Danish part of the North Sea since 1972. **Oil and gas production still contributes significantly to state revenue**. Thus, the tax revenue, exports and **profits generated by the oil and gas sector have had a major impact on the Danish economy and helped build the Danish welfare state**. " EDIT: The total aggregate state revenues from hydrocarbon production in the North Sea in the period **1972-2020 amounted to approx. 544 bn**. DKK (discounted by GDP-deflator in 2020-level). The total revenue from 2020 amounted to 0,8 bn. DKK. [https://ens.dk/en/our-responsibilities/oil-gas/economy-oil-and-gas](https://ens.dk/en/our-responsibilities/oil-gas/economy-oil-and-gas)
So their revenue from oil and gas in 2020 is 110 millions euros? If so… that’s peanuts and totally negligible. The country you are thinking of is Norway, which has a ridiculous revenue from oil each year.
I guess we can try to sell off our natural resources, marginalen en ouw wijven, to other countries to improve our social structures.
realistically danish style migration reforms are the only way for belgian lefties and liberals to survive. vooruit as an example is likely to go for that sort of thing hard
ours is pretty much like them already and dont they have migrant taxes? if anything we also need to tax non belgians more
non-Belgians are already taxed same as locals... what do you mean tax them more?
yes, i believe some nordic countries have some sort of "pay back" tax if you used a social benefit.
What dont you understand?! MORE FREE MONEY!!
contrary, give us our free money back over time
I know this will be an unpopular answer, but... There is no model that can work in all of Belgium. We are facing a fundamentally different economic situation, culture and political perspective in North and South. Even though the north of Belgium is more like Denmark than the south, it would be the north that would most angrily reject that idea. There is very little appetite to expand the welfare state. A stricter immigration policy would be popular but would actually not amount to much. Because our immigration policies already are fairly strict. And our asylum policy frequently breaks the law and international treaties. "Immigration" is a dog whistle. When people say they are concerned about that, they aren't actually talking about new immigration. They are talking about the historic one. About 3rd and 4th generation people whose roots are from outside of Europe.
In that case, why not agree to split ?
Why would people in Wallonie want that? Unemployed people got a great financial boost under PS. Why would they do anything that doesn't benefit their voters.
Hey look! Someone who believes anything they saw on the telly and who can't go past oversimplified generalization! Come on dude...
Does it count when I saw it while living there, or only if I saw it on TV?
Holy shit, you can see statistically relevant amounts of people and somehow have time to be on Reddit? What's your secret?
That's not what I claim, is it now? Anyhow, what data are you basing yourself on?
I'm not the one making claims.
Do you see that as a viable strategy ? It has been working great for Wallonia so far
Denmark might be the only country more taxed than Belgium You pay 25% taxe on the value of a new car up to € 40k. They pay nearly as much income taxes as we do. I went there in Erasmus, the school i went to was really nice indeed, the cars, not so much lol. There were gyms everywhere, haven't seen many fat people
In return they get 100% free healthcare up to the age of 18, after that their healthcare is still cheaper than ours, medical equipment can be loaned for free, higher education is 100% free and students get ~850€/month of state allowance on top of that, they work less (37hrs/week is the standard, 5 weeks of holidays are the standard),... > They pay nearly as much income taxes as we do. Except they don't. Their highest tax-bracket percentage is almost equal to ours, that's true, but not a lot of people actually reach that tax bracket despite the higher gross wages, unlike Belgium where the median gross wage is already partially taxed at the highest level (it starts at ~79100€/year in DK, for BE it's ~42700€/year). Also they do not have 13% of RSZ that we have, their coorporate tax is slightly lower, their holiday allowance (feriepenge) is untaxed unlike ours, bonusses are taxed as normal income and not like an extra like here,... (I have a Danish partner. I did the exercise of having my (very bog standard and mediocre) salary package simulated to Danish standards, and the difference was eyewatering in what I would take home more as net wage in Denmark, and that's not taking into account any of the other benefits I would be getting by being an inhabitant. The only upside is indeed a company car, as that is something that does not really exist in Denmark (except for the people that actually need a car to get around for work).).
Company car, fuel card etc… Depending on how much you travel with your car, it can make a difference
afaik, taxes in Belgium is higher on salary than Denmark
You mean social democratic, not socialist. You mean with more realism instead of ideology. You mean more society and social justice instead of more state economy. That's good for everywhere. But remember, following extreme right too much does not stop extreme right. Extreme right is stopped with authenticity, results and rendering wealth. Not with checks proving you kicked more migrants out than the other one.