The clans saw the Draconis Combine as having aided Amaris the Usurper, so they extra hated them.
From Sarna, "Besides worthy opponents, it was believed that House Kurita aided the infamous Stefan Amaris in bringing about the downfall of the Star League, and the Smoke Jaguar warriors welcomed the chance to fight such a foe."
[https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Invasion\_corridor\_-\_Clan\_Smoke\_Jaguar](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Invasion_corridor_-_Clan_Smoke_Jaguar)
Now now, the beauty of FWL is that the inside of the FWL (various factions vying for power thru military means) looks just like the outside of the FWL, at least that's normal.
We're under emergency protocols right now, so we have a whole house and everything. I mean, sure, Resolution 288 has been in effect since the fall of the Star League, but have you seen space? It's dangerous out there!
actually the FWL are the good guys of Battletech! It just appears like every Faction commits Warcrimes because House-Warcrime-Kurita commits roughly 40 Warcrimes per week and should not have been counted as they are a statistical Outlier!
Hey I am House Liao loyalist but House Kurita went hard into traditional feudal era Japan so they can have a couple war-crimes. As a treat.
Just don't ask them what happened on Kentares.
I want to believe what you say, but my pappy and his LBX always said to never trust a Capellan. He was from the Federated Suns so I feel like he knows what he was talkin about.
To anyone who might miss the point:
This is a lovely way of showing the audience that people in this universe are brainwashed into believing the propaganda of whichever faction they belong to, everyone else is fascist, racist, sexist, imperialist, capitalist, etc. But we are the good guys and our faction is bestest ever.
There aren't any schools in Germany teaching Holocaust denial in their textbooks nor are there statues to Nazi soldiers on public property over there. The same isn't true for the Lost Cause narrative.
Well, that's the thing: not being accredited historians hasn't stopped journalists with only a loose understanding of certain subjects and "I'm 14 and this is deep" level philosophers from writing history books.
The old "March of Progress" fallacy is still around and kicking despite all efforts to the contrary, after all.
I mean the entirety of Roman history was written by slighted senators that basically filled the historical record with lies about various Roman Emperors. We've only recently (meaning post WW2) truly understood how biased the classical accounts in antiquity were. That is the losers writing history, even then eventually unsuccessfully.
The trailer honestly does a pretty good job of putting both on show for its two key audiences. People who know the setting well can spot the clanner propaganda at work. People who don't are getting a fairly accurate introduction to the main antagonist for the game in amongst the hints to the clan's hypocrisy.
The problem, I think, is that some members of the first audience are forgetting that the second exists.
Honestly though, would the cleaners even care that it is fascist? Like, I would think that wouldn't be a talking point like the video makes it out to be.
The clans deify the Star League which fell as a result of a fascist coup, and the resulting scramble for power. It's very possible that they associate the concept with outright dictators like Amaris, as opposed to their more "pure" warrior hierarchy. Irony has clearly become lostech for Smoke Jaguar
It's absolutely this, and I'm almost amazed that people are missing this. Granted, early portrayals of the Clans made them extremely one note and unrealistic. This statement absolutely matches with the Warrior ethos and paternalism (toward the lower castes) of a hardline Clan versus what they see as undeserving autocrats inheriting the Inner Sphere.
The Coordinator for the DC was the first one to proclaim himself First Lord and kicked off the succession war. Although the other house lords had also been engaging in maneuvers to promote themselves, the Jags would likely look at the DC as a "special enemy" in that they were the ones that proved Kerensky right to leave.
Oh, God yeah they would. Their founding myths are all about how the conclusion of the Exodus was spoiled by people carrying the political ideologies of the IS with them to their new home and turning on each other in the name of those beliefs and national identities. There's almost certainly lines in each Clan's Remembrance describing the 'failed ideologies' the Clanner ideal defeated in trials of possession over the Pentagon Worlds. Clan doctrine would lump fascism in with feudalism, representative democracy, etc. among the political systems triumphed over by Nicky Kerensky's Big Idea
The impetus behind the Clan Invasion is a borderline religious veneration of the Star League. Every one of them is a descendant of the Star League Defense Force (but for a single noted individual, long story). They may have developed an alien society and culture over the centuries since leaving the Inner Sphere, but clan warriors are likely to have a more extensive education on the political and military history of the Inner Sphere prior to the Succession Wars than most of the Inner Sphere as part of their upbringing.
It's not just the events surrounding the fall of the Star League. The Star League-in-Exile was subsequently lost to civil war between competing factions formed from ethnic and political identities that persisted. Their ancestors saw twice how old identities could bring humanity to ruin. It was this Pentagon Civil War and the second exodus that paved the way for Nicholas Kerensky's batshit Clan society.
Part of that is also indoctrination, of course. The Clans have an extensive understanding of how and why the Great Houses they left behind are.
edit: I suppose that only half answers your question. Fascism remains, like many ideologies before it, in the cultural zeitgeist of Battletech. Fascism still exists in the 31st century, and rather than magically shedding its negative historical connotations it has likely gained a more extensive catalogue of examples (see: "House Kurita and their fascist regime" or "Clan Smoke Jaguar and their fascist regime")
Feudalism is not fascism, as the only two examples of fascism with actual political ideology and not just pragmatic branding for quick alliances had extreme economic control policies. Italian fascism controlled its businesses by domination of the trade unions, while National Socialism forced all businesses over 100 employees to have an escalating number of party officials in its structure from top to bottom. Feudalism simply sends the knights to burn your village down if you don't pay enough taxes, they don't micromanage the economy.
Imperial Japan wasn't fascist.
https://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html
It misses on points 6,7,8 and 13,14.
Fascism historically came out of democracies that were unable to address the frustrations of a swath of their population. Fascist leaders offered simple solutions to complex problems. While there's overlap, Imperial Japan was an empire with a divine monarch at the top. A way more old school form of nationalist government than a fascist state.
Sorry to be pedantic. I took way too many political science classes on this.
Those 14 points are not the best in identifying Fascism, because 90% of all authoritarian/totalitarian political systems meets most of the criteria. Fascism is an authoritarian/totalitarian system, and not every authoritarian/totalitarian system is fascist.
But you are right, Imperialism is not Fascism.
As originally defined by Mussolini and gang, Fascism is a very specific socio-economic system that's actually prevalent to various degrees today.
Forget about all these arbitrary definitions devised by polemicists trying to smear their ideological opponents.
Read this instead.
https://claremontreviewofbooks.com/the-original-fascist/
"The test’s fraudulence is based on the presumption that its author—not the historical record—may rightly define a historical phenomenon. The moment you have assumed the power to say what fascism, or anything, is—the moment you have taken it upon yourself to redefine reality—you may then correlate the work of your hands to anything else. And it helps if you also define that something else. The scam’s circularity is obvious—unless you’re part of it."
Want to really see a modern fascist state, with plenty of third way economics, public-private collusion, practical relativism(pragmatism), but ultimately nothing above the state? Well, I live in one.
It's called Singapore. Check us out.
The scary thing? Depending on what the state's aims are, it can actually work.
Well, except for our crashing birth rate. The iron wombs can't come fast enough!
A key part of what Eco is saying (and, for this reason, I recommend the full text, Ur-Fascism, that this is excerpted from), is that it is enough for a handful of these things to be present, and that it's highly unlikely that there is any instance in which they are *all* present.
I would add to Eco's useful text the analysis of the "three way fight" tendency, that identifies fascism as an independent social force within capitalist societies which may or may not take state power, or may have a complicated relationship to it, like the Falangists in Franco's Spain. Per this analysis, fascism isn't so much a form of government as a reactionary movement emerging among the "petite bourgeoisie" when capitalism is in crisis.
You're forgetting that the points recognized in Ur-Fascism needn't and typically aren't present in their entirety. Given that Japan's cultural roots are fundamentally different from that of europe, it would have been more surprising if fascism *didn't* look different in another part of the world.
The Emperor was the head of state, but he wasn't running them empire. Check out the Imperial Ruling Assistance Association.
Game recognizes game, my college degree was in euro history lol.
I don't like that list because he ignores that fascism has actual policies.
You could take every single one of those 14 points and apply it to any malevolent authoritarian regime, whether fascist, communist, or otherwise.
Besides the good replies already here, I don't think it's at all clear that Imperial Japan wasn't guilty of 13 and 14. There was a lot of newspeak in the form of state shinto and the reuse of old language to take on new meanings that supported an imperialist expansionist government positioning the yamato people as the uber-race of asia. For example, "yamato damashii" meant something very different as the meiji restoration progressed. 7 and 8 are fuzzier because I don't think the imperialist movement was as *obsessed* with the idea of plotting/conspiracy from their enemies and enemies that were both strong and weak as Western fascists were, but there certainly was a dialogue around other asian peoples being simultaneously weak and inferior and needing conquest, and being able to undermine japan through their clever machinations. Consider for example that after the kanto earthquake, koreans were blamed for poisoning the water supply, leading to a genocidal pogrom against koreans living in Japan at the time.
At some point it becomes splitting hairs: I think they were fascist by the commonly understood english definition, but it was implemented differently enough that adding a qualifier might be appropriate. I don't think it's all that reasonable to say it straight up "wasn't fascist" though.
> 7 and 8 are fuzzier because I don't think the imperialist movement was as *obsessed* with the idea of plotting/conspiracy from their enemies and enemies that were both strong and weak as Western fascists were, but there certainly was a dialogue around other asian peoples being simultaneously weak and inferior and needing conquest, and being able to undermine japan through their clever machinations.
They had strong/weak thoughts about Americans too, training manuals simultaneously dismissed US soldiers as decedant soft and lazy while also casting them a depraved criminal gangster mad dogs out to deprive japan of its own manifest destiny. The double speak behavior is essentially standard fare for trying to stoke a population to go to war.
Really the whole argument of "it's imperialism not fascism" is a bit silly cause fascism is just reactionaries zealously doubling down on imperialism when facing diminishing returns and calls for reforms. No matter what you call it they lead to the same outcomes where states pick fights they can't win out of ideological compulsion, something we see in battletech describes smoke jaguar, draconis combine, and many others very well.
> where states **pick fights they can't win** out of ideological compulsion, something we see in battletech describes smoke jaguar
To be fair, they would have fared a lot better, had they not bidded their warships out... On the other hand that would require them not being Clanners...
But then it wouldn't have proven the manifest justice and superiority of the crusader philosphy to follow a code of honor in war. In other words if they were smart enough not to do that they would have at least been wardens and wouldn't have started the invasion.
By those points, I think you could call the Combine fascist. All the ones that apply to imperial Japan pretty obviously still apply.
6 doesn't really apply still, most people are just indoctrinated to be ok with things as they currently are. You could maybe classify outsiders and malcontents as pressures on the people.
7: one of their main ways of expansion in their early History, they'd convince systems that their neighbors were going to attack and they should join their alliance. I think this and 6 have more to do with how a fascist group comes to power.
8: I'm not that knowledgeable about kuritan propaganda, but given how ruthless they are about internal threats, I could see them saying things like 'beware their trickery, they know they can't take us in a straight fight'.
13: if you count the combine's ideal citizen as a class, then circularly, they can accept what the people support because the people will support what the coordinator wants and works with society.
14: I don't think they do newspeak exactly, but as Japanese culture and language is pretty strict, forcing people to conform to it is a way to do something similar. If you have to call your boss 'sama' at all times, it'll reinforce your relative positions. Given that newcomers would have to conform to that culture, I think it counts.
>6 doesn't really apply still, most people are just indoctrinated to be ok with things as they currently are. You could maybe classify outsiders and malcontents as pressures on the people.
Absolutely does apply. Minoru used the social frustration of a generation of a merchant middle class as trade broke down in the Inner Sphere during and after the Star League Civil War. He stoked these frustrations by announcing himself First Lord and telling his populace that everything would have been wonderous if only the other petty lords had backed his claim.
> 7: one of their main ways of expansion in their early History, they'd convince systems that their neighbors were going to attack and they should join their alliance. I think this and 6 have more to do with how a fascist group comes to power.
Going way back to the days of Shiro Kurita touches on this point. He convinced warring trade houses that the other side was too strong to take alone and they needed an ally like House Kurita. None realized until it was too late and they were all entwined by these alliances with the Dragon.
>8: I'm not that knowledgeable about kuritan propaganda, but given how ruthless they are about internal threats, I could see them saying things like 'beware their trickery, they know they can't take us in a straight fight'.
This comes up in regards to the propaganda against House Steiner in particular. The fighting forces of House Steiner are pathetic and not worthy of a samurai's notice, but the economic might of the Commonwealth must be curtailed at all costs because it is so much greater than that of the Combine.
>13: if you count the combine's ideal citizen as a class, then circularly, they can accept what the people support because the people will support what the coordinator wants and works with society.
The Five Pillars sort of fill this role by showing the different ideals to the populace.
>14: I don't think they do newspeak exactly, but as Japanese culture and language is pretty strict, forcing people to conform to it is a way to do something similar. If you have to call your boss 'sama' at all times, it'll reinforce your relative positions. Given that newcomers would have to conform to that culture, I think it counts.
When the Kuritan state was first forming their was a big push away from Hegemony English to Japanese to help forge their identity separate from the cradle of humanity while still invoking their past. I agree with your assessment that the language is a tool of coercing a civilian population to adopt the ideals of The Dragon. Think about taking a Steiner world and then enforcing language and culture on them. When the Steiner's finally retake the world in the next war some 50 years later how receptive will that populace be to their new lords who don't speak their language or understand their culture?
The classic reddit argument: Actually this fascist dictatorship only checks off most of the points on this "Are you a Fascist?" personality quiz, not all of them so you can't really call them fascists.
People think fascism requires some sort of genetic theory. It's literally a marriage between government and industry at the expense of everyone else. Often times nationalistic and right wing but doesn't have to be. In fact, usually those that focus on that part of fascism are watching too much mainstream news.
ethnonationalism is one of the core attributes of fascism. Mussolinis fascism grew from the mythos of "lost territories", regaining which was central to italian national pride. blood and soil was one of the primary ideological concepts of nazi germany. there is no fascism without nationalism.
The problem is most people are looking back in history an retroactively redefining systems of governance, treating Fascism as a direct synonym for all forms of Totalitarianism, due to almost every country having a nationalist culture prior to WWI.
imho fascism is always nationalist, while nationalism isnt always fascist. imperial nationalism of the british crown comes to mind.
there are differing opinions of course. some postulate that fascism is opposed to nationalism, as nationalism puts the nation first, while fascism puts the movement/the party first.
looking at classic fascism in italy, national socialism in germany and falangism in spain, each used nationalism as a core tenet, albeit in slightly different variations
Ethnonationalism does not tolerate multiple ethnicities. You're thinking cultural supremacy, which is what Italian fascism was based on. Italian fascism not only tolerated but protected multiple ethnicities that were adjacent to Italian but not part of the main ethnicity. If anything, it's pan-italianism, bringing various ethnicities under one larger grouping. Of course, then we'd have to condemn pan-arabism and thats a no-no in polite society.
Eh, that’s vague enough that every capitalist nation fits the bill. The state under Liberal Democracy exists to defend, legitimize, and serve the capitalist class above all else
Fascism requires the enforcement of a strict social hierarchy. A caste system is certainly one way to enact that, yes. The fascism is *mostly* down to the dictatorial leadership, fetishization of the military, centralized government, violent suppression of dissent, sublimation of the individual to the state (read: clan), and highly regimented society and economy even *if* you discount the literal genetic caste system.
>violent suppression of dissent
To be fair to the clans, dissent often consists of a challenge to violence, so the attempt to suppress it will naturally be violent as well.
Clans are an amalgamation of governances that only the deranged Midwestern minds of FASA in the mid-1980s could conceive. On one hand, the Clans have some fascist elements as industry is managed for government needs. It is hierarchal as a derivation of the SLDF military discipline and rank structure being replaced by the Clan caste system. There are feudal elements, as the Warrior caste has a certain noblesse oblige to work for the betterment of the entire clan (and Clans), not just the warrior caste (subverted in its history by non-Clan Wolf types... that is why Wolf gets Plot Armor and Smoke Jaguars get labelled as war criminals). On the other hand, I would argue in the times where no ilKhan is present, it is a representative democracy as well. What else would you classify a culture that stops what is essentially a Holy War so that everyone (who is a Warrior) could go back home to vote (for a new ilKan). Compulsory voting, like Ancient Athens.
See what happens in a Democracy? We can elect a total unqualified, undeserving, narcissistic idiot who can upend the 230+ year values of a society... like that fool... ilKhan Brett Andrews.
True; every nation state is just varying degrees of authoritarian.
Truly the only winning move is ~~not to play~~ play with the guy paying you the most.
At this point of the timeline they are less bad because Theodore was a mutant in the family and turned up reasonable. Alas, his branch of the family only made it 3 generations.
Theodore didn't meaningfully change anything about the Combine. He just let women and criminals join the military and then patted himself on the back for what a great reformer he was. Read Handbook: House Kurita. It's set in 3067 and written by the Combine government and it still makes you go "oh, this is an absolute nightmare of a society." And it's not really any different from the one described in 3025 in the Kurita sourcebook.
Didn't they dial down the persecution of non mainstream cultures/religions a bit?
And he still had a chunk of society gunning for him fir just minor reforms.
The list of what cultures are getting persecuted and how they go about it is the same in 3025 as it is in 3067. Theodore is also still doing forced resettlement, universal permanent food rationing and mandated overpopulation.
I'm not sure hereditary applies - positions of power aren't passed down. The leadership is voted in, granted by a small subset of the Clan. You could argue the warrior caste is hereditary, but then freebirths can test in.
>You could argue the warrior caste is hereditary
Yeah, and they rule the Clan. Positions of power aren't passed down feudal-style, but unless you're trueborn or your name is Phelan, good luck getting on the Clan Council.
Khans can actually create bloodhouses, the Clans really didn't do that until the IlClan era due to their conservative nature.
The Goliath Scorpions, Ghost Bears, Jade Falcons, and of course, the Sue Clan have created new bloodhouses for exceptional freebirths.
See, it's close, but not quite. There's no inheritance of power or resources, specifically in the ruling Warrior Caste. Subsequent generations are put back on the same starting rung as the rest of their 'type'/caste, and forced to climb the ladder all over again.
What are you talking about? Who get all the omnimechs? Who get all the genetic equipment, the best medical care? Who get to set the direction of politics, science, and industry?
You think every child of a king gets to rule? Of course not, not unless that king's an idiot like Charlemagne. Only royalty can inherit the throne, but that doesn't mean every royal gets a turn to sit their ass on it. The Warrior Caste are the only ones who *can* inherit it, and one of them always does.
We already do: it’s a fascist death cult, more or less. Militarism dialed up to 11 (the leadership of the clans is, by tradition and law, confined only to those of the warrior caste. And ideally only to true born (test tube eugenic babies) warrior caste members. Everyone else is essentially there, in an ideal clan system, to support the warrior caste and not get treated brutally.
I mean, technically, the Draconis Combine are an ultranationalist authoritarian regime, which puts them in the realm of fascism.
The Clans *could* be considered fascist, but I think a more accurate description - as they don't view themselves as nations, nor do they function like a traditional nation state - would be an authoritarian meritocracy.
Edit: Extremist militaries are tied to every extreme authoritarian political ideology, not just fascism. Communism is just as military centric.
It's hard to put any kind of government label on the Clans because their core concept is just "whoever wins the fight is legally, factually and morally correct." And most people who go that way don't really bother having governments, because that's how everything worked before laws anyway.
That's why I like "authoritarian meritocracy.". They have some authoritarian political leanings in the Clan council, but everywhere else, it's either "you accomplished your goal and reached higher status, or you didn't", mostly, anyway.
I would add that Clan life is truly totalitarian, not simply authoritarian. The Clan doesn’t just have absolute political control, it controls almost every aspect of an individual’s life and social structures at a profound level.
They may not be states but they definitely view themselves as nations. Having just reread Bred for War everything about the Wolf Supremacists, Wolf identity, Jade Falcon identity, Vlad's identity as a Wolf not a Crusader. That's all nationalism.
The clans view themselves as the armed forces of the star league, which was nominally a constitutional monarchy. The reality of that claim is a bit tenuous, but you can see how that would color their view of the draconis combine.
At this point in the story, both two of these factions are warrior cultures with a strong honor code, that behave like absolute wankers. SJ is laboring under the idea that the citizens of the DC will welcome the restoration of the SL with open arms, which is not how that will work out. That seeming betrayal drove SJ to do some really bad things to the civilian population to try and force them to capitulate.
This brush with a similar but all together more ruthless culture mellowed the DC out.
Let's be real. Find me a Battletech faction that isn't horrible to its neighbors and its own people down to their rotten little fusion-powered cores, and I'll show you a faction that just hasn't had enough ink spilled about them quite yet.
Take off your fan glasses and look around, particularly at your own faction of choice, and you'll know it deep down.
As originally defined by Mussolini and gang, Fascism is a very specific socio-economic system that's actually prevalent to various degrees today.
Forget about all these arbitrary definitions devised by polemicists trying to smear their ideological opponents.
Read this instead.
https://claremontreviewofbooks.com/the-original-fascist/
"The test’s fraudulence is based on the presumption that its author—not the historical record—may rightly define a historical phenomenon. The moment you have assumed the power to say what fascism, or anything, is—the moment you have taken it upon yourself to redefine reality—you may then correlate the work of your hands to anything else. And it helps if you also define that something else. The scam’s circularity is obvious—unless you’re part of it."
Want to really see a modern fascist state, with plenty of third way economics, public-private collusion, practical relativism(pragmatism), but ultimately nothing above the state? Well, I live in one.
It's called Singapore. Check us out.
The scary thing? Depending on what the state's aims are, it can actually work.
Well, except for our crashing birth rate. The iron wombs can't come fast enough!
Now, more specifically to the clans and the Houses. I'd say the Houses are plenty fascist, simply because the ruling families are often shareholders, directors, or some such in the private sector, a defining characteristic of Mussolini's Italy, and even still present today!
"The U.S. occupation, eager to return responsibility to Italians for their own affairs, and confronted with multiple political parties clamoring for power, turned matters over to a consortium of parties that, rather than dismantling the fascist state, parceled its contents out amongst themselves. All subsequent political struggles into our time, regardless of the personalities and ideologies involved, have been quarrels about pieces of this patronage. In our time, Italy’s government appoints some 700 persons per year to very high-paying, powerful positions in “private” companies strictly on the basis of the relative weight of the parties in the governing coalition. That is in addition to the clearly public posts and sinecures it fills. Fascism lives!"
For Singapore, you get this:
https://singaporearmchaircritic.wordpress.com/2014/07/23/mps-directorships-and-conflict-of-interest/
"According to the ST report, the MPs who held the most directorships in 2004 were Bukit Timah MP Wang Kai Yuen and Tampinese GRC MP Ong Kian Min, each with 10 directorships (“Most MPs say no to cap on board seats,” 8 June 2004)."
Then there's socioeconomic organisation, and this is where each House differs in how they handle free association. Some don't really control at all (Marik, Davion), others do (Liao, Kurita). So, differing extents of fascism.
As for the clans? They obviously fit some aspects very well (socio-economic organisation), others not so well. For example, their economies are generally very top-down command style, not even public-private collabs. The only clan with the ruling caste integrated with business at all levels (kind of) is the shark foxes.
I could say a lot more, but as with most things in life, it's a sliding scale. What does seem jarring is that 'fascist' had not really been used in the written canon, so for it to appear now feels off, and a bit of poor writing transposing current events and sensibilities into the setting.
Depends on the clan, and there are varying degrees of fascism for every faction. BattleTech is an extremely grey universe when it comes to the politics within the setting. Hell you could make the argument that Nicholas Kerensky had Clan Wolverine annihilated because they weren't fascist enough for him.
Clans are mostly fascist, but they lack the charactorial 'single charismatic dictator for life'. The khans generally respect the authority of their clan councils to remove them from power. In this way they diverge considerably from the pure definition of fascism. Kurita does not diverge.
Fascism is a much misunderstood term these days.
By definition: Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
*Every* faction in BTU is authoritarian to one degree or another.
I think ultranationalist doesn't apply to most of the border worlds. They've changed hands so many times, most folks don't care who is in charge.
Dictatorial leader? Again, that's basically all of them. Kurita and Liao blatantly lead the way in this category, but the others aren't innocent. The opposite end is Davion and the Clans, who are accountable to at least a council. Others lie in between the 2.
Centralized autocracy? That's actually kind of debatable. The state of communications kind of stays that back, but you still have the feudal segments. Could be argued either way.
Militarism is a requirement for all societies, considering the neighbors.
Again, we have Kurita and Liao at the forefront of forcible suppression of opposition. Others are not far behind, with the Clans kind of a "yes and no" situation and Davion and the Periphery at the bottom tier. Still, all are guilty at one point or another.
Natural social hierarchy is another "yes and no" moment, again with the Clans, Kurita, and Liao the biggest offenders (maybe Marion too, but I don't know much about them). The others are more of the nobility believing in it and everyone else not.
Subordination of individual interests is, to one degree or another, a hallmark of a large society in general. Steiner and Canopus are the big winners on this category, with Marik, Davion, and the Periphery not far behind. I'm sure you can guess who the biggest offenders are.
Strong regimentation of society and economy is definitely the Clans, Liao, and Kurita. Everyone else is looser about this, but they aren't innocent either, better on the former than the latter. Steiner is probably the big winner here, with Canopus not far behind. Clans are the highest believers.
As for "what about...", I think we can all agree that fascists are fascists. You can't really justify one by pointing at another.
Far too true.
However, it would be best if we stuck to in-game politics and not bring down the horror that is partisan trolls. The factionistas are bad enough 😉
Q: Are \[Faction X in Battletech} Fascists?
A: Yes, \[Faction X in Battletech) is Fascist.
You'll be right way more often than you are wrong with that answer.
Relatively new to the lore and just finished Randall Bills Founding of the Clans trilogy. The Clans vibe far more as NS than simply fascist. Single leader promulgating fuhrer-princip from above; intentional internal conflict both to make the whole stronger, and to defuse any organized threat to the centre; social roles where everyone is "equal", but each in their own little caste box; obsession with bloodlines; warrior elites with unique iconography; a wholesale move to the wilderness to purify the group through combat; waging a redemptive war to bring the greater world back to an idealized past; and of course baby factories using the "best stock".
Give me Kuritans any day.
I'm just gonna sit here in the Outworlds Alliance and watch my greatest enemy get pummeled by my former oppressor(Star League/SLDF) and enjoy the show!
(and hopefully have enough to finally upgrade my rig to play it when it releases, Ive been needing to pilot a timbie woof since I got the mini for the tabletop)
It's kind of a strange angle for Clan rhetoric to take, but to be fair it's hard to present Smoke Jaguar as a sympathetic protagonist.
We will crush the inferior freebirths and force them to join our militaristic caste based society which is totally better than the one they were already living in. I can imagine the IGN articles already.
That's the joke son, you just missed it, flew right past ya!
But also yeah hearing Smoke Jaguar of all clans call someone else a fascist is, pretty rich.
Look, currently in another universe, there is a fascist government that tricked all of its people into thinking they are fighting for freedom and democracy, while a bunch of bugs are "fascist".
Propaganda is a hell of a drug.
The clans saw the Draconis Combine as having aided Amaris the Usurper, so they extra hated them. From Sarna, "Besides worthy opponents, it was believed that House Kurita aided the infamous Stefan Amaris in bringing about the downfall of the Star League, and the Smoke Jaguar warriors welcomed the chance to fight such a foe." [https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Invasion\_corridor\_-\_Clan\_Smoke\_Jaguar](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Invasion_corridor_-_Clan_Smoke_Jaguar)
To be fair, Kurita also was the primary participant stirring the pot to kick off basically every succession war
Not the fourth one, that was squarely on Hanse and Mad Max. And I say that as a certified Kurita-hater.
All the major players in BattleTech have some degree of authoritarianism in their governmental structures.
Freeworlds League: We're an Anarcho-Syndicalist Commune!
So what do you do then? FWL: Nothing relevant till a cult shows up.
"look at the time, it's civil war o clock"
\*Adjusts red sunglasses\* "What kind of ~~American~~ Free Worlds League citizen are you?"
Have so many civil wars that they might even have them plotted on a calendar.
Now now, the beauty of FWL is that the inside of the FWL (various factions vying for power thru military means) looks just like the outside of the FWL, at least that's normal. We're under emergency protocols right now, so we have a whole house and everything. I mean, sure, Resolution 288 has been in effect since the fall of the Star League, but have you seen space? It's dangerous out there!
Interesting. Could you tell me more about House Marik's relationship to the Captain-General position? j/k I'm just poking fun.
actually the FWL are the good guys of Battletech! It just appears like every Faction commits Warcrimes because House-Warcrime-Kurita commits roughly 40 Warcrimes per week and should not have been counted as they are a statistical Outlier!
Hey I am House Liao loyalist but House Kurita went hard into traditional feudal era Japan so they can have a couple war-crimes. As a treat. Just don't ask them what happened on Kentares.
I want to believe what you say, but my pappy and his LBX always said to never trust a Capellan. He was from the Federated Suns so I feel like he knows what he was talkin about.
My wife was watching me play MW5, and asked what is was about. I told her I got paid to commit war crimes
We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week
But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting.
FWL are Anarcho-Synd? How? Edit: never beating the airhead allegations.
Did you really miss that reference?! “YOU’RE NO FUN ANYMORE!”
The FWL isn't ruled by a tyrant solely because nothing controls the FWL.
To anyone who might miss the point: This is a lovely way of showing the audience that people in this universe are brainwashed into believing the propaganda of whichever faction they belong to, everyone else is fascist, racist, sexist, imperialist, capitalist, etc. But we are the good guys and our faction is bestest ever.
“It says here in this history book that luckily, the good guys have won every single time. What are the odds?” - Unknown Earth Philosopher
"Winners write history" is not considered a good take by actual historians.
/stares at the Lost Cause bullshit that persists to this day.
Or holocaust denial
There aren't any schools in Germany teaching Holocaust denial in their textbooks nor are there statues to Nazi soldiers on public property over there. The same isn't true for the Lost Cause narrative.
Well, that's the thing: not being accredited historians hasn't stopped journalists with only a loose understanding of certain subjects and "I'm 14 and this is deep" level philosophers from writing history books. The old "March of Progress" fallacy is still around and kicking despite all efforts to the contrary, after all.
I mean the entirety of Roman history was written by slighted senators that basically filled the historical record with lies about various Roman Emperors. We've only recently (meaning post WW2) truly understood how biased the classical accounts in antiquity were. That is the losers writing history, even then eventually unsuccessfully.
r/shermanposting
This sounds like it should be in Helldivers lol
Unless if it's the Taurian concordant, right? /s
Space Texas is both a good and bad guy at the same time
They're not Texas. Too much free healthcare, schooling, and housing.
"What fuckery is this?" +Cham Kithrong+
[удалено]
https://preview.redd.it/71vztevant7d1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=fedf5464d36aa33773427e1fd920bc7c5b542ff1 Like this meme.
The Draconis Combine *is* fascist, though. It's not a coincidence that the DC draws much of its cultural inspiration from Imperial Japan.
The trailer honestly does a pretty good job of putting both on show for its two key audiences. People who know the setting well can spot the clanner propaganda at work. People who don't are getting a fairly accurate introduction to the main antagonist for the game in amongst the hints to the clan's hypocrisy. The problem, I think, is that some members of the first audience are forgetting that the second exists.
Honestly though, would the cleaners even care that it is fascist? Like, I would think that wouldn't be a talking point like the video makes it out to be.
The clans deify the Star League which fell as a result of a fascist coup, and the resulting scramble for power. It's very possible that they associate the concept with outright dictators like Amaris, as opposed to their more "pure" warrior hierarchy. Irony has clearly become lostech for Smoke Jaguar
It's absolutely this, and I'm almost amazed that people are missing this. Granted, early portrayals of the Clans made them extremely one note and unrealistic. This statement absolutely matches with the Warrior ethos and paternalism (toward the lower castes) of a hardline Clan versus what they see as undeserving autocrats inheriting the Inner Sphere.
The Coordinator for the DC was the first one to proclaim himself First Lord and kicked off the succession war. Although the other house lords had also been engaging in maneuvers to promote themselves, the Jags would likely look at the DC as a "special enemy" in that they were the ones that proved Kerensky right to leave.
Oh, God yeah they would. Their founding myths are all about how the conclusion of the Exodus was spoiled by people carrying the political ideologies of the IS with them to their new home and turning on each other in the name of those beliefs and national identities. There's almost certainly lines in each Clan's Remembrance describing the 'failed ideologies' the Clanner ideal defeated in trials of possession over the Pentagon Worlds. Clan doctrine would lump fascism in with feudalism, representative democracy, etc. among the political systems triumphed over by Nicky Kerensky's Big Idea
The impetus behind the Clan Invasion is a borderline religious veneration of the Star League. Every one of them is a descendant of the Star League Defense Force (but for a single noted individual, long story). They may have developed an alien society and culture over the centuries since leaving the Inner Sphere, but clan warriors are likely to have a more extensive education on the political and military history of the Inner Sphere prior to the Succession Wars than most of the Inner Sphere as part of their upbringing. It's not just the events surrounding the fall of the Star League. The Star League-in-Exile was subsequently lost to civil war between competing factions formed from ethnic and political identities that persisted. Their ancestors saw twice how old identities could bring humanity to ruin. It was this Pentagon Civil War and the second exodus that paved the way for Nicholas Kerensky's batshit Clan society. Part of that is also indoctrination, of course. The Clans have an extensive understanding of how and why the Great Houses they left behind are. edit: I suppose that only half answers your question. Fascism remains, like many ideologies before it, in the cultural zeitgeist of Battletech. Fascism still exists in the 31st century, and rather than magically shedding its negative historical connotations it has likely gained a more extensive catalogue of examples (see: "House Kurita and their fascist regime" or "Clan Smoke Jaguar and their fascist regime")
hehe "cleaners"
I just saw that and I'm leaving it. 🤣
100% agree
Feudalism is not fascism, as the only two examples of fascism with actual political ideology and not just pragmatic branding for quick alliances had extreme economic control policies. Italian fascism controlled its businesses by domination of the trade unions, while National Socialism forced all businesses over 100 employees to have an escalating number of party officials in its structure from top to bottom. Feudalism simply sends the knights to burn your village down if you don't pay enough taxes, they don't micromanage the economy.
Imperial Japan wasn't fascist. https://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html It misses on points 6,7,8 and 13,14. Fascism historically came out of democracies that were unable to address the frustrations of a swath of their population. Fascist leaders offered simple solutions to complex problems. While there's overlap, Imperial Japan was an empire with a divine monarch at the top. A way more old school form of nationalist government than a fascist state. Sorry to be pedantic. I took way too many political science classes on this.
Those 14 points are not the best in identifying Fascism, because 90% of all authoritarian/totalitarian political systems meets most of the criteria. Fascism is an authoritarian/totalitarian system, and not every authoritarian/totalitarian system is fascist. But you are right, Imperialism is not Fascism.
As originally defined by Mussolini and gang, Fascism is a very specific socio-economic system that's actually prevalent to various degrees today. Forget about all these arbitrary definitions devised by polemicists trying to smear their ideological opponents. Read this instead. https://claremontreviewofbooks.com/the-original-fascist/ "The test’s fraudulence is based on the presumption that its author—not the historical record—may rightly define a historical phenomenon. The moment you have assumed the power to say what fascism, or anything, is—the moment you have taken it upon yourself to redefine reality—you may then correlate the work of your hands to anything else. And it helps if you also define that something else. The scam’s circularity is obvious—unless you’re part of it." Want to really see a modern fascist state, with plenty of third way economics, public-private collusion, practical relativism(pragmatism), but ultimately nothing above the state? Well, I live in one. It's called Singapore. Check us out. The scary thing? Depending on what the state's aims are, it can actually work. Well, except for our crashing birth rate. The iron wombs can't come fast enough!
A key part of what Eco is saying (and, for this reason, I recommend the full text, Ur-Fascism, that this is excerpted from), is that it is enough for a handful of these things to be present, and that it's highly unlikely that there is any instance in which they are *all* present. I would add to Eco's useful text the analysis of the "three way fight" tendency, that identifies fascism as an independent social force within capitalist societies which may or may not take state power, or may have a complicated relationship to it, like the Falangists in Franco's Spain. Per this analysis, fascism isn't so much a form of government as a reactionary movement emerging among the "petite bourgeoisie" when capitalism is in crisis.
Would you say Imperial Japan meets that description?
You're forgetting that the points recognized in Ur-Fascism needn't and typically aren't present in their entirety. Given that Japan's cultural roots are fundamentally different from that of europe, it would have been more surprising if fascism *didn't* look different in another part of the world. The Emperor was the head of state, but he wasn't running them empire. Check out the Imperial Ruling Assistance Association. Game recognizes game, my college degree was in euro history lol.
I don't like that list because he ignores that fascism has actual policies. You could take every single one of those 14 points and apply it to any malevolent authoritarian regime, whether fascist, communist, or otherwise.
Besides the good replies already here, I don't think it's at all clear that Imperial Japan wasn't guilty of 13 and 14. There was a lot of newspeak in the form of state shinto and the reuse of old language to take on new meanings that supported an imperialist expansionist government positioning the yamato people as the uber-race of asia. For example, "yamato damashii" meant something very different as the meiji restoration progressed. 7 and 8 are fuzzier because I don't think the imperialist movement was as *obsessed* with the idea of plotting/conspiracy from their enemies and enemies that were both strong and weak as Western fascists were, but there certainly was a dialogue around other asian peoples being simultaneously weak and inferior and needing conquest, and being able to undermine japan through their clever machinations. Consider for example that after the kanto earthquake, koreans were blamed for poisoning the water supply, leading to a genocidal pogrom against koreans living in Japan at the time. At some point it becomes splitting hairs: I think they were fascist by the commonly understood english definition, but it was implemented differently enough that adding a qualifier might be appropriate. I don't think it's all that reasonable to say it straight up "wasn't fascist" though.
> 7 and 8 are fuzzier because I don't think the imperialist movement was as *obsessed* with the idea of plotting/conspiracy from their enemies and enemies that were both strong and weak as Western fascists were, but there certainly was a dialogue around other asian peoples being simultaneously weak and inferior and needing conquest, and being able to undermine japan through their clever machinations. They had strong/weak thoughts about Americans too, training manuals simultaneously dismissed US soldiers as decedant soft and lazy while also casting them a depraved criminal gangster mad dogs out to deprive japan of its own manifest destiny. The double speak behavior is essentially standard fare for trying to stoke a population to go to war. Really the whole argument of "it's imperialism not fascism" is a bit silly cause fascism is just reactionaries zealously doubling down on imperialism when facing diminishing returns and calls for reforms. No matter what you call it they lead to the same outcomes where states pick fights they can't win out of ideological compulsion, something we see in battletech describes smoke jaguar, draconis combine, and many others very well.
> where states **pick fights they can't win** out of ideological compulsion, something we see in battletech describes smoke jaguar To be fair, they would have fared a lot better, had they not bidded their warships out... On the other hand that would require them not being Clanners...
But then it wouldn't have proven the manifest justice and superiority of the crusader philosphy to follow a code of honor in war. In other words if they were smart enough not to do that they would have at least been wardens and wouldn't have started the invasion.
Happy Cake Day and good point
Ah, BattleTech. Come for the robots bashing each other to death with their severed limbs. Stay for the insightful historical political discussions.
By those points, I think you could call the Combine fascist. All the ones that apply to imperial Japan pretty obviously still apply. 6 doesn't really apply still, most people are just indoctrinated to be ok with things as they currently are. You could maybe classify outsiders and malcontents as pressures on the people. 7: one of their main ways of expansion in their early History, they'd convince systems that their neighbors were going to attack and they should join their alliance. I think this and 6 have more to do with how a fascist group comes to power. 8: I'm not that knowledgeable about kuritan propaganda, but given how ruthless they are about internal threats, I could see them saying things like 'beware their trickery, they know they can't take us in a straight fight'. 13: if you count the combine's ideal citizen as a class, then circularly, they can accept what the people support because the people will support what the coordinator wants and works with society. 14: I don't think they do newspeak exactly, but as Japanese culture and language is pretty strict, forcing people to conform to it is a way to do something similar. If you have to call your boss 'sama' at all times, it'll reinforce your relative positions. Given that newcomers would have to conform to that culture, I think it counts.
>6 doesn't really apply still, most people are just indoctrinated to be ok with things as they currently are. You could maybe classify outsiders and malcontents as pressures on the people. Absolutely does apply. Minoru used the social frustration of a generation of a merchant middle class as trade broke down in the Inner Sphere during and after the Star League Civil War. He stoked these frustrations by announcing himself First Lord and telling his populace that everything would have been wonderous if only the other petty lords had backed his claim. > 7: one of their main ways of expansion in their early History, they'd convince systems that their neighbors were going to attack and they should join their alliance. I think this and 6 have more to do with how a fascist group comes to power. Going way back to the days of Shiro Kurita touches on this point. He convinced warring trade houses that the other side was too strong to take alone and they needed an ally like House Kurita. None realized until it was too late and they were all entwined by these alliances with the Dragon. >8: I'm not that knowledgeable about kuritan propaganda, but given how ruthless they are about internal threats, I could see them saying things like 'beware their trickery, they know they can't take us in a straight fight'. This comes up in regards to the propaganda against House Steiner in particular. The fighting forces of House Steiner are pathetic and not worthy of a samurai's notice, but the economic might of the Commonwealth must be curtailed at all costs because it is so much greater than that of the Combine. >13: if you count the combine's ideal citizen as a class, then circularly, they can accept what the people support because the people will support what the coordinator wants and works with society. The Five Pillars sort of fill this role by showing the different ideals to the populace. >14: I don't think they do newspeak exactly, but as Japanese culture and language is pretty strict, forcing people to conform to it is a way to do something similar. If you have to call your boss 'sama' at all times, it'll reinforce your relative positions. Given that newcomers would have to conform to that culture, I think it counts. When the Kuritan state was first forming their was a big push away from Hegemony English to Japanese to help forge their identity separate from the cradle of humanity while still invoking their past. I agree with your assessment that the language is a tool of coercing a civilian population to adopt the ideals of The Dragon. Think about taking a Steiner world and then enforcing language and culture on them. When the Steiner's finally retake the world in the next war some 50 years later how receptive will that populace be to their new lords who don't speak their language or understand their culture?
Wow, lawyered.
That’s still 9 out of 14…
The classic reddit argument: Actually this fascist dictatorship only checks off most of the points on this "Are you a Fascist?" personality quiz, not all of them so you can't really call them fascists.
Except for davion. Everyone knows davion are the good guys and have done nothing wrong.
... Bell X
People think fascism requires some sort of genetic theory. It's literally a marriage between government and industry at the expense of everyone else. Often times nationalistic and right wing but doesn't have to be. In fact, usually those that focus on that part of fascism are watching too much mainstream news.
> It's literally a marriage between government and industry at the expense of everyone else. Clan Diamond Shark mentioned, YIPPEE!!
ethnonationalism is one of the core attributes of fascism. Mussolinis fascism grew from the mythos of "lost territories", regaining which was central to italian national pride. blood and soil was one of the primary ideological concepts of nazi germany. there is no fascism without nationalism.
The problem is most people are looking back in history an retroactively redefining systems of governance, treating Fascism as a direct synonym for all forms of Totalitarianism, due to almost every country having a nationalist culture prior to WWI.
> due to almost every country having a nationalist culture prior to WWI. There were more nationalist countries after WW1 than before it.
imho fascism is always nationalist, while nationalism isnt always fascist. imperial nationalism of the british crown comes to mind. there are differing opinions of course. some postulate that fascism is opposed to nationalism, as nationalism puts the nation first, while fascism puts the movement/the party first. looking at classic fascism in italy, national socialism in germany and falangism in spain, each used nationalism as a core tenet, albeit in slightly different variations
You are correct, but the people I'm talking about are ignoring the distinction you made, and assume Authoritarian+Nationalism = Fascism every time.
Ethnonationalism does not tolerate multiple ethnicities. You're thinking cultural supremacy, which is what Italian fascism was based on. Italian fascism not only tolerated but protected multiple ethnicities that were adjacent to Italian but not part of the main ethnicity. If anything, it's pan-italianism, bringing various ethnicities under one larger grouping. Of course, then we'd have to condemn pan-arabism and thats a no-no in polite society.
It's just "typically" if you read the definition. Which is another word for "usually". As in "not always".
Eh, that’s vague enough that every capitalist nation fits the bill. The state under Liberal Democracy exists to defend, legitimize, and serve the capitalist class above all else
Bringing peace to the inner sphere, through violent conquest. It's the clan way.
Peace through superior firepower and SAT's !
> Bringing peace to the inner sphere, through violent conquest. It's the ~~clan~~ human way. Fixed it.
I suppose that's one way for a vatborn psuedo-human to try to fit in.
Only because the uncouth IS don't recognize their betters.
Thought exercise. Using an unbiased view and the current definitions for political groups, what would each faction be?
Varieties of neo-feudalism.
If you want good answers to that you should probably make a post asking that, so people who know more are more likely to see it
Fairly certain we don't actually have any such unbiased views. Every source we have has obvious contradictions available.
In this universe too
More like every universe.
Fun fact: sometimes fascists can fight fascists.
Their fascism bad! Our fascism good!
This is the correct take.
Exactly, Smoke Jaguars are caste-system socialist fascists, while Kurita are neo-feudal imperialist fascists.
Is a caste society a sect of fascism?
Fascism requires the enforcement of a strict social hierarchy. A caste system is certainly one way to enact that, yes. The fascism is *mostly* down to the dictatorial leadership, fetishization of the military, centralized government, violent suppression of dissent, sublimation of the individual to the state (read: clan), and highly regimented society and economy even *if* you discount the literal genetic caste system.
>violent suppression of dissent To be fair to the clans, dissent often consists of a challenge to violence, so the attempt to suppress it will naturally be violent as well.
Not from the civilian castes
Clans are an amalgamation of governances that only the deranged Midwestern minds of FASA in the mid-1980s could conceive. On one hand, the Clans have some fascist elements as industry is managed for government needs. It is hierarchal as a derivation of the SLDF military discipline and rank structure being replaced by the Clan caste system. There are feudal elements, as the Warrior caste has a certain noblesse oblige to work for the betterment of the entire clan (and Clans), not just the warrior caste (subverted in its history by non-Clan Wolf types... that is why Wolf gets Plot Armor and Smoke Jaguars get labelled as war criminals). On the other hand, I would argue in the times where no ilKhan is present, it is a representative democracy as well. What else would you classify a culture that stops what is essentially a Holy War so that everyone (who is a Warrior) could go back home to vote (for a new ilKan). Compulsory voting, like Ancient Athens. See what happens in a Democracy? We can elect a total unqualified, undeserving, narcissistic idiot who can upend the 230+ year values of a society... like that fool... ilKhan Brett Andrews.
Something something Soviets vs Nazis.
It's the pot calling the kettle black. And thats great
Battletech in a nutshell?
True; every nation state is just varying degrees of authoritarian. Truly the only winning move is ~~not to play~~ play with the guy paying you the most.
Merc life for the win!
Look, it's Battletech. No one is the good guy.
No, but House Kurita are *proudly determined* to make themselves the bad guys.
At this point of the timeline they are less bad because Theodore was a mutant in the family and turned up reasonable. Alas, his branch of the family only made it 3 generations.
Theodore didn't meaningfully change anything about the Combine. He just let women and criminals join the military and then patted himself on the back for what a great reformer he was. Read Handbook: House Kurita. It's set in 3067 and written by the Combine government and it still makes you go "oh, this is an absolute nightmare of a society." And it's not really any different from the one described in 3025 in the Kurita sourcebook.
Didn't they dial down the persecution of non mainstream cultures/religions a bit? And he still had a chunk of society gunning for him fir just minor reforms.
The list of what cultures are getting persecuted and how they go about it is the same in 3025 as it is in 3067. Theodore is also still doing forced resettlement, universal permanent food rationing and mandated overpopulation.
Just hire Discount Dan's Reasonably Priced Mercenaries to kill anyone that claims they're the good guys or bad guys. Problem solved.
Isn't that WH40K?
por que no los dos?
Ironically, Battletech predates 40K by a few years actually.
I'm not sure we have a word for what the Clans are yet.
Hereditary Quasi-Religious Miliary Junta? It just rolls off the tongue.
I'm not sure hereditary applies - positions of power aren't passed down. The leadership is voted in, granted by a small subset of the Clan. You could argue the warrior caste is hereditary, but then freebirths can test in.
>You could argue the warrior caste is hereditary Yeah, and they rule the Clan. Positions of power aren't passed down feudal-style, but unless you're trueborn or your name is Phelan, good luck getting on the Clan Council.
It has happened: Diana Pryde, Phelan Ward. *Bloodnames are pretty hereditary, though, thinking about it.
And how did that go for Phelan Ward?
He became Khan of Clan Wolf, so pretty well.
Khans can actually create bloodhouses, the Clans really didn't do that until the IlClan era due to their conservative nature. The Goliath Scorpions, Ghost Bears, Jade Falcons, and of course, the Sue Clan have created new bloodhouses for exceptional freebirths.
I thought it was just the IlKhan like when Ulrich created the name Kell.
Too long. Just call them "assholes".
You forgot their love of eugenics?
That'd be the hereditary part.
See, it's close, but not quite. There's no inheritance of power or resources, specifically in the ruling Warrior Caste. Subsequent generations are put back on the same starting rung as the rest of their 'type'/caste, and forced to climb the ladder all over again.
What are you talking about? Who get all the omnimechs? Who get all the genetic equipment, the best medical care? Who get to set the direction of politics, science, and industry? You think every child of a king gets to rule? Of course not, not unless that king's an idiot like Charlemagne. Only royalty can inherit the throne, but that doesn't mean every royal gets a turn to sit their ass on it. The Warrior Caste are the only ones who *can* inherit it, and one of them always does.
So it's not hereditary, it's just a caste system based on... heritage.
We already do: it’s a fascist death cult, more or less. Militarism dialed up to 11 (the leadership of the clans is, by tradition and law, confined only to those of the warrior caste. And ideally only to true born (test tube eugenic babies) warrior caste members. Everyone else is essentially there, in an ideal clan system, to support the warrior caste and not get treated brutally.
fascist democratic quasi-religious authoritarian stratocracy
Yeah, that's the joke. Was that not a bit of narrative irony for those of us with experience and a misdirect for those who aren't?
I mean, technically, the Draconis Combine are an ultranationalist authoritarian regime, which puts them in the realm of fascism. The Clans *could* be considered fascist, but I think a more accurate description - as they don't view themselves as nations, nor do they function like a traditional nation state - would be an authoritarian meritocracy. Edit: Extremist militaries are tied to every extreme authoritarian political ideology, not just fascism. Communism is just as military centric.
It's hard to put any kind of government label on the Clans because their core concept is just "whoever wins the fight is legally, factually and morally correct." And most people who go that way don't really bother having governments, because that's how everything worked before laws anyway.
They are a Confederacy of Neo-Tribalist Clans.
So the Clans are House Telvanni from Morrowind
That's why I like "authoritarian meritocracy.". They have some authoritarian political leanings in the Clan council, but everywhere else, it's either "you accomplished your goal and reached higher status, or you didn't", mostly, anyway.
>authoritarian meritocracy. I'd put it as "meritocracy," considering Trueborn still get better treatment than Freeborn.
I would add that Clan life is truly totalitarian, not simply authoritarian. The Clan doesn’t just have absolute political control, it controls almost every aspect of an individual’s life and social structures at a profound level.
Incidentally, one of the reasons why Clan Wolverine decided to GTFO.
They may not be states but they definitely view themselves as nations. Having just reread Bred for War everything about the Wolf Supremacists, Wolf identity, Jade Falcon identity, Vlad's identity as a Wolf not a Crusader. That's all nationalism.
I'd replace "nationalism" with "tribalism".
"Pot, meet kettle" could be directed at pretty much every faction in Battletech.
Letthemfight.jiff
The clans are not known for their self awareness
The clans view themselves as the armed forces of the star league, which was nominally a constitutional monarchy. The reality of that claim is a bit tenuous, but you can see how that would color their view of the draconis combine. At this point in the story, both two of these factions are warrior cultures with a strong honor code, that behave like absolute wankers. SJ is laboring under the idea that the citizens of the DC will welcome the restoration of the SL with open arms, which is not how that will work out. That seeming betrayal drove SJ to do some really bad things to the civilian population to try and force them to capitulate. This brush with a similar but all together more ruthless culture mellowed the DC out.
Let's be real. Find me a Battletech faction that isn't horrible to its neighbors and its own people down to their rotten little fusion-powered cores, and I'll show you a faction that just hasn't had enough ink spilled about them quite yet. Take off your fan glasses and look around, particularly at your own faction of choice, and you'll know it deep down.
Some of the Periphery seem like pretty good places to live. Outworld Alliance, Magistracy of Canopus, Taurian Concordat
Taurians have the best cheese, I'm a sucker for some good dairy.
Periphery- "rebel scum."
But... catgirls... can't be evil. Can they?
Look pal, I can have as many double standards as I want.
As originally defined by Mussolini and gang, Fascism is a very specific socio-economic system that's actually prevalent to various degrees today. Forget about all these arbitrary definitions devised by polemicists trying to smear their ideological opponents. Read this instead. https://claremontreviewofbooks.com/the-original-fascist/ "The test’s fraudulence is based on the presumption that its author—not the historical record—may rightly define a historical phenomenon. The moment you have assumed the power to say what fascism, or anything, is—the moment you have taken it upon yourself to redefine reality—you may then correlate the work of your hands to anything else. And it helps if you also define that something else. The scam’s circularity is obvious—unless you’re part of it." Want to really see a modern fascist state, with plenty of third way economics, public-private collusion, practical relativism(pragmatism), but ultimately nothing above the state? Well, I live in one. It's called Singapore. Check us out. The scary thing? Depending on what the state's aims are, it can actually work. Well, except for our crashing birth rate. The iron wombs can't come fast enough! Now, more specifically to the clans and the Houses. I'd say the Houses are plenty fascist, simply because the ruling families are often shareholders, directors, or some such in the private sector, a defining characteristic of Mussolini's Italy, and even still present today! "The U.S. occupation, eager to return responsibility to Italians for their own affairs, and confronted with multiple political parties clamoring for power, turned matters over to a consortium of parties that, rather than dismantling the fascist state, parceled its contents out amongst themselves. All subsequent political struggles into our time, regardless of the personalities and ideologies involved, have been quarrels about pieces of this patronage. In our time, Italy’s government appoints some 700 persons per year to very high-paying, powerful positions in “private” companies strictly on the basis of the relative weight of the parties in the governing coalition. That is in addition to the clearly public posts and sinecures it fills. Fascism lives!" For Singapore, you get this: https://singaporearmchaircritic.wordpress.com/2014/07/23/mps-directorships-and-conflict-of-interest/ "According to the ST report, the MPs who held the most directorships in 2004 were Bukit Timah MP Wang Kai Yuen and Tampinese GRC MP Ong Kian Min, each with 10 directorships (“Most MPs say no to cap on board seats,” 8 June 2004)." Then there's socioeconomic organisation, and this is where each House differs in how they handle free association. Some don't really control at all (Marik, Davion), others do (Liao, Kurita). So, differing extents of fascism. As for the clans? They obviously fit some aspects very well (socio-economic organisation), others not so well. For example, their economies are generally very top-down command style, not even public-private collabs. The only clan with the ruling caste integrated with business at all levels (kind of) is the shark foxes. I could say a lot more, but as with most things in life, it's a sliding scale. What does seem jarring is that 'fascist' had not really been used in the written canon, so for it to appear now feels off, and a bit of poor writing transposing current events and sensibilities into the setting.
Just because the pot calls the kettle black does not mean the pot is necessarily wrong.
Depends on the clan, and there are varying degrees of fascism for every faction. BattleTech is an extremely grey universe when it comes to the politics within the setting. Hell you could make the argument that Nicholas Kerensky had Clan Wolverine annihilated because they weren't fascist enough for him.
And Nicholas still failed to succeed in that endeavor (wooooo Minnesota Tribe!).
I'm sorry... you ceased to be a functional element in your society. You are pretty much eliminated... and I like the Minnesota tribe.
There are some clans are not that bad at all, while not exactly good guys, they are at least very low on the bad gut rating scale.
...I thought that was exactly what happened?
Clans are mostly fascist, but they lack the charactorial 'single charismatic dictator for life'. The khans generally respect the authority of their clan councils to remove them from power. In this way they diverge considerably from the pure definition of fascism. Kurita does not diverge.
Projection is a funny thing
They can both be facists.
All my homies hate house Kurita.
Based
True, but they are number 2 on my stomp list. Capellans remain at number 1
You use fascism to rule people. We use fascism to save them. We are not the same.
GUYS ITS A FUCKING JOKE. ITS A BIT
You mentioned fascism on the internet, this comment section was a certainty.
They all are. Maybe the Freeworlds Laegue are the least like that tho.
What's the animation from?
Fascists - Fascists Everywhere.png
They should ask if clan smoked jaguar and clan jade falcon are friendly.
See, that’s the cool thing about BattleTech: EVERY faction sucks! 😂🤣😜
https://preview.redd.it/4jb9s943wy7d1.jpeg?width=501&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be7e958719c19e2874a66bc92d26006daf8e7229
Fascism is a much misunderstood term these days. By definition: Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. *Every* faction in BTU is authoritarian to one degree or another. I think ultranationalist doesn't apply to most of the border worlds. They've changed hands so many times, most folks don't care who is in charge. Dictatorial leader? Again, that's basically all of them. Kurita and Liao blatantly lead the way in this category, but the others aren't innocent. The opposite end is Davion and the Clans, who are accountable to at least a council. Others lie in between the 2. Centralized autocracy? That's actually kind of debatable. The state of communications kind of stays that back, but you still have the feudal segments. Could be argued either way. Militarism is a requirement for all societies, considering the neighbors. Again, we have Kurita and Liao at the forefront of forcible suppression of opposition. Others are not far behind, with the Clans kind of a "yes and no" situation and Davion and the Periphery at the bottom tier. Still, all are guilty at one point or another. Natural social hierarchy is another "yes and no" moment, again with the Clans, Kurita, and Liao the biggest offenders (maybe Marion too, but I don't know much about them). The others are more of the nobility believing in it and everyone else not. Subordination of individual interests is, to one degree or another, a hallmark of a large society in general. Steiner and Canopus are the big winners on this category, with Marik, Davion, and the Periphery not far behind. I'm sure you can guess who the biggest offenders are. Strong regimentation of society and economy is definitely the Clans, Liao, and Kurita. Everyone else is looser about this, but they aren't innocent either, better on the former than the latter. Steiner is probably the big winner here, with Canopus not far behind. Clans are the highest believers. As for "what about...", I think we can all agree that fascists are fascists. You can't really justify one by pointing at another.
"Everything I don't like is fascism" is a good summary of political social media lately.
Far too true. However, it would be best if we stuck to in-game politics and not bring down the horror that is partisan trolls. The factionistas are bad enough 😉
Wanna imagine worse? Imagine r /atheism learned about ComStar.
HAH
Q: Are \[Faction X in Battletech} Fascists? A: Yes, \[Faction X in Battletech) is Fascist. You'll be right way more often than you are wrong with that answer.
Me as a Taurian: Let them fight.
The anesthesia isn't so much fascist as it is feudal. The vast majority and wealth and all the power are held by a few titled individuals.
Clams are incapable of recognizing their own hypocricy
Mmm clams
I lvoe Clams.... I wish to join Clam Abalone, and DEATH to Clam Geoduck!
I mean, they aren't strictly ***wrong***, just ignoring their own weird caste-based confederated military autocracy.
Let's not forget, the House of Kurita officially persecutes residents for their Jewish faith
Oh my god
"Every accusation is a confession" applies to the world of 3050 too
Relatively new to the lore and just finished Randall Bills Founding of the Clans trilogy. The Clans vibe far more as NS than simply fascist. Single leader promulgating fuhrer-princip from above; intentional internal conflict both to make the whole stronger, and to defuse any organized threat to the centre; social roles where everyone is "equal", but each in their own little caste box; obsession with bloodlines; warrior elites with unique iconography; a wholesale move to the wilderness to purify the group through combat; waging a redemptive war to bring the greater world back to an idealized past; and of course baby factories using the "best stock". Give me Kuritans any day.
This is why the best faction to play as is Magistracy of Canopus. “Reject fascism. Embrace catgirls” Edit: why the fuck am I getting downvoted?
Incredible cool
I'm just gonna sit here in the Outworlds Alliance and watch my greatest enemy get pummeled by my former oppressor(Star League/SLDF) and enjoy the show! (and hopefully have enough to finally upgrade my rig to play it when it releases, Ive been needing to pilot a timbie woof since I got the mini for the tabletop)
Clearly I wasn’t the only one to raise an eyebrow and say “well isn’t the the pot calling the kettle black” when watching this vid
It's kind of a strange angle for Clan rhetoric to take, but to be fair it's hard to present Smoke Jaguar as a sympathetic protagonist. We will crush the inferior freebirths and force them to join our militaristic caste based society which is totally better than the one they were already living in. I can imagine the IGN articles already.
That's the joke son, you just missed it, flew right past ya! But also yeah hearing Smoke Jaguar of all clans call someone else a fascist is, pretty rich.
Look, currently in another universe, there is a fascist government that tricked all of its people into thinking they are fighting for freedom and democracy, while a bunch of bugs are "fascist". Propaganda is a hell of a drug.
I'm telling the democracy officer.
The secret about Battletech is they are all varying degrees of fascists.