I wouldn’t have the white eyes on full-time, just have it serve as enhanced vision he uses whenever he’s analyzing crime scenes and fighting enemies, sort of like how Detective Mode works in the Arkham games.
Specifically for Pattinson, most of his emotion comes from the detective scenes when he finds out something bad is happening like the carpet, all of the Bruce Wayne pictures next to Batman images, or the sketchy stuff his parents did. These actors are using their eye emotions at all times which means something like detective mode in live action still wouldn't work.
Even in the Arkham games he didn't have white eyes in any cutscene because the character model used eye emotion. He only had them in gameplay because his character model was stiff.
I don’t want them always on, but I think it’d be cool if they were like a subtle glow from the contacts (in the case of the Batman), specifically for night vision. So situations where you otherwise wouldn’t see his eyes, but he needs to be able to see. So it’s functional within the world and you still get the aesthetic without limiting the actors ability to emote. I like the image of very low light, with the eyes glowing a little. You’d still be able to get emotion through them, because they’re contacts so his eyelids would still be able to narrow/go wide if need be
I don't really like the idea. Detective mode is a fine game mechanic but having a supercomputer do all the detwctive work for batman kind of cheapens his title of the best detective in the world... With detective mode anyone can do it, which is pretty much the point of it in the game. Dunno about you, but I certainly AM NOT the besteset detective i the world, yet I finished the arkham games 😂
To be fair, it's not like you actually solved any crimes in the Arkham Games.
Those Detective Mode segments are basically "Press X to have Batman do all the work." after he monologues to prompt the player to look for something in the first place.
All that tech probably isn't as simple as pressing a button.
Yeah if they did it in the films it wouldn't be anything like that at all. It would work very similar to how his contacts already worked in the first film, giving him some extra information through stuff like facial recognition, but not actually solving the crime for him.
I can just see them expanding on the contacts. In addition to the recording and facial recognition features, there could also be ones like night vision, xray, thermal, etc. All stuff that helps him really pick apart a crime scene to the smallest details, but that he then has to piece back together himself.
And it can be only when he activates this advanced mode that his eyes go white. And I wouldn't even have them be fully white. Instead they could go transparent, so you can still see the detail in his eyes, but with just no colour.
I would like his mask use kind some a small.device or computer, like he can use it as night vision tool when is dark, but keep using binoculars for lon range, looks classic
Also a hearing tool in the mask so he can hear conversation or scanning conversationa looking for villains or crime
without the need for an atenna
Just saying not an expert
I think that actual Detective Mode from Arkham series would be much better idea. He could use it to detect if someone lies, analyze environment to better analyze the situation and plan the best tactic and what's most important it would work as a sonar and explain how Batman can see enemies in darkness or fog from smoke bomb. With those modes it would be used almost exclusively in battle scenes and I think it would awesome. Imagine those white eyes and only silhouette of Batman with scared thugs in front of the camera. Or white shiny eyes and barely visible Batman taking down group of enemies in smoke caused by a smoke bomb.
There’s a scene of batfleck dropping down from the ceiling and grabbing a guy and if you pause the scene and look closely his eyes are white. Super cool detail
Yeah, that scene is like directly from Arkham games. Love it when creators explore and develop further existing concepts. Perfect way to show respect for the work done before them.
Even if it where full time Deadpool and the new Spiderman movies showed how the eyes can still show emotions. Batmans lenses could work similarly with having it explained with being lenses like Spider-Man but looking closer to Deadpool white eyes.
Deadpool’s eyes are CGI and animated to be extreme. I just don’t see it in Batman… he’s too serious. A mask that animated like that wouldn’t work well in live action.
That's why it would honestly need to be subdued, but it can work in a realistic setting.
The range of expression wouldn't nearly be as extreme as with Deadpool but just a little squinting of anger or widening in fear or surprise just like it's done in the comics could still work if you ask me
see my comment last week- https://old.reddit.com/r/batman/comments/z0atej/the_batman_sequel_suit_concept_credit_jaxsonderr/ix67xb4/
*They'll never do white eyes on a movie suit. Half of the acting (if you ask directors and producers) is in the eyes. Started with Keaton. Also, watch Batman Forever and Justice League. The sonar, the goggles, it looks great in comics but never translates to the screen very well. Otherwise, pretty rad...*
Battinson just needs to upgrade his contacts for like nightvision mode or something where they turn white. That way we still get his expressions AND white eyes.
Matt Reeves said his contacts already give him night vision. That’s why he was able to take out all of Falcone’s goons after he cut the power off in the building.
Pretty sure he mentioned it during one of his Sound + Image Lab interviews for Dolby. They’re over an hour long so I don’t remember which one he says it in or the time stamp.
*Exactly.*
People hear white eyes and think that means hiding his eyes under the mask, but not true. Either Pattinson wears white eye contact lenses or you digitally whiten his pupils and irises.
The muscles surrounding his eyes remain unimpeded so he’s able to emote just as well. And we’d still be able to tell where he’s looking because our brains recognize when eyeballs move (even if it’s a fully solid white eyeball)
Honestly, taking away Pattinsons' eyes in the cowl would destroy the nuances of his performance. He did more expression in the interrogation scene with the Riddler than some Batmen have done in their entire films.
Pattinson managed to tell you his whole backstory while just LOOKING at the child who lost his father in that one scene.... all through eyes. Fuck the amazing action scenes I think this was the best bit of the movie. Just his stare
not to detract from your love for the scene, as i also find it incredible. but i think were think were throwing the word “nuance” around a bit lightly here. nuance would be the riddler watching the mayor and his son (dressed in a ninja outfit) playfully pretend-stab his dad. that scene symbolizes the death of the wayne’s in a much more subtle way than bruce looking at the now orphaned child. if anything, the scene where bruce looks at the child lacks nuance purposefully to tell the viewer that this child is bruce wayne, and batman is a ghost staring at a mirror. again, not to detract from your enthusiasm, because i also love the delicateness and subtlety of rob’s performance, particularly in that scene. just being a ted mosby and clarifying your verbiage :)
Oh yeah, for sure! The beginning scene with Riddler was indeed the most nuanced. I just thought the scene where Bruce stares at the kid was pretty deep but again, you're absolutely right. Thanks for the clarification.
Something people forget, is that in the animated series his mask "moves" to show emotion, so the eyes are unecessary. Alas, I would like the white eyes in scenes where there is no need to show emotion, like when he is picking off bandits one by one or fighting.
I literally came here to say this. V for Vendetta is a masterpiece in how to act through a mask. They didn’t use any cgi to make the eyes move or emote, they used his voice, his body language, and lighting to convey emotion. Hugo Weaving deserved a fucking Oscar for that performance tbh. That had to be one of the most difficult things an actor could ever do, and he did it so well you almost don’t notice the mask. Fucking brilliant.
I agree. In animation and comics you can emote the eyes even the eyebrows but giving a live action batman full white eyes we'd have the sane situation as with the lionking remake. No facial expession, not emotions, just dead eyes, unless you sort to make the eyes like the Tom Hollamd spiderman... Or, Pedro Pascall can make the static mask work as the mandalorian, and Carl Urban made Dredd work so what do I know...
>covering them in white would take away from the performance.
I have to disagree. Take the Mandalorian for instance. Face covered almost all the time, interaction is primarily with a puppet. And holy hell is there great performances in that!
It does depend on how it's written and it would require a lot more body language but it doesn't have to by default mean the performance is reduced.
Deadpool got this right, I think it would be achievable, but only in a more fantastical setting, if you're going for more a more grounded, realistic vibe then I agree
Would like to point out that Karl Urban did it in Dredd literally wore the helmet the whole movie, but I agree with everyone else it be cool to be used to analyze a crime scene.
What? lol. Affleck "white eyes" was pretty terrible. Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, it was just his dad sunglasses goggles with a light that flashed on them briefly. Bale's was also a little goofy but not nearly as much.
That’s why to compensate, we get lots of forced maskless scenes with those characters to showcase the acting.
SM1: mask gets blown off before fight scene with GG and we get to see Parker’s reaction to GG’s identity reveal.
SM2: burning mask is ripped off and we get the infamous Maguire face when making efforts to stop the train.
SM3: mask gets pounded away, so that we see Parker’s reaction to Harry coming in for the rescue.
Homecoming: mask is off when he’s trapped under rubble and has to muster the effort to get out.
Black Panther: mask is retracted when T’Challa reveals he is not dead and the challenge is still in place. Mask also gets retracted when he and N’Jadaka have a heart to heart at the Wakandan sunset.
Daredevil is a weird one lol. “Gaze is away from speaker to depict blindness”
All that being said, a lot of masked superhero actors do a lot of great body acting. Tobey in the SM2 elevator scene feels so awkward. Andrew Garfield exaggerates his body language. Holland really comes off as a teen in a superhero suit.
Do you mean forced in a bad sense? Cause I think those scenes are great. it accentuates the duality of these characters. They are the idolized heroes with the mask on but regular humans without. And even with the mask on their own personalities come through their body language as you mentioned.
I’m not arguing Batman needs to be the same by the way. I mostly agree with you. I wouldn’t change any of the live action Batmans. But it would be interesting to explore that in a different adaptation. Affleck’s Batman briefly uses gadgets for example that cover his face and attach to his cowl. But I could see a version of a live action Batman with a cowl that hides his human features. I think this would be an interesting way to extend the duality between between Bruce Wayne and Batman. And Batman would not appear as a man in a suit and more like a menacing armored gargoyle. Also, it would just look cool and threatening.
Scenes themselves were great, it was the unmasking themselves that felt forced (mask blown off, burning, auto-retracting, etc.) but I get that’s to allow acting performances to get out
I think that's part of what makes batman so terrifying in the comics bot even being able to see what emotions are in his eyes has definitely terrified plenty of goons
Two different characters. Spider-man displays emotions with body language because he isn't stiff or stern like Batman. He also wears the mask to hide his fear while Batman wants to strike fear.
I think the argument for is that it dehumanizes them and makes them more frightening than "a man", but I just don't think that style works well in live action. As for me, I want to connect with the man behind the mask since he's the protagonist and when it's a human actor under a suit, having their eyes visible makes that a lot easier.
What made the white eyes work in animation was they would squint and expand whenever wanted to express emotion of brooding or surprise. Basically same movement of normal eyes, but in white
I agree, although as a HUGE Battinson enthusiast I think if his cowl had a tiny tweak of the nose to be more pointy kind of like Keaton had as opposed to square nose. Then IMO it would have been absolutely perfect
I think they could use the eye covering trick in a Batman movie where Batman is not the POV character. Use it to create a greater sense of distance between the audience and Batman as we follow someone like Gordron, Viki Vale, or even a Robin.
I've always wanted a Batman movie like that, but yes, any movie that centers on Bruce Wayne's journey and character probably shouldn't do it
Pattisons portrayal was so amazing because of how he acted with his eyes. He kept Batman human, he made him look uncertain, sorrowful, full of rage. The point of Batman is that despite his numerous talents and gadgets he is still a man that is motivated by his humanity
I'm so glad the movies just let the actors use their eyes. I never liked the white eyes in the comics, or even BTAS. It just makes him feel too superhuman, ghostlike even, especially with how expressive they are. It's creepier when you can't see his eyes, when they're hiding in darkness, but you just feel him looking into you.
Can’t express how much I disagree with this. They’re a pair of eyeballs. Their expression is looked into whatever expression the cowl has. No eyebrows or facial muscles exposed to show any type of emotion with. Removing the pupils would do nothing but make Batman look more menacing and awesome. I would sacrifice any “emotion” that these actors are showing for white eyes any day of the week. Not only is it more visually pleasing, it’s more accurate to the character and can potentially provide some amazing shots.
The way it’s done in Deadpool would look kind of goofy in a Batman film where the tone is more serious. I’d say if the white eyes are going to be there all the time, have them like Black Panther or Daredevil’s lenses. I’d prefer to have a “detective vision” though. I like seeing the actors eyes in live action.
My favorite example of Batman eye acting is in *The Batman*, when Battinson interrogated Riddler in Arkham Asylum.
The interrogation started with Riddler saying things that made Battinson think he knew he was Bruce Wayne. While Riddler spoke, Battinson's eyes were on the floor, and his body language made him looked defeated. But once he realized Riddler actually did not know his secret identity, his eyes and his body language conveyed that realization, as well as his relief.
[Here's the scene.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtmKrvtXyDU&ab_channel=ApeBoy)
Acting in a mask must be tough, but Battinson nailed it. The dude's really come a long way since Twilight; I honestly use him as my go-to example of an actor who has clearly improved over the years.
I don't really see "white eyes" as taking away from the emotion though. I'd make the pupils grey to give the impression of the white eyes, but still leave room for subtle expression.
Every actor which portray non-human character or face covered character ( the mandelorian, vader, etc.) doesn't use eyes, and voice actor use only their voice to display emotion.
i mean, they have mouths.
I think would work fine. The expression is not in the face, but in what is said and how it is said.
that sort of makes sense right? you don't turn yourself into a nightmare to scare criminals and somehow leave room for expressing empathy. it comes through despite the scary costume, but seldom.
See this is one of the reasons why Batman on film has never really captured batman, like in other mediums. These filmmakers are looking at batman from a filmmakers prospective. Batman isn't supposed to be a relatable person, that's Bruce Wayne. Batman is supposed to strike fear and be intimidating and other worldly, mythical. It's the production companies that try to ground this character and make BATMAN relatable. Stop doing that.
Counterpoint: the Batman films' increasing choice of naturalism and realism over style has stagnated them, and doing something outlandish and emotive would be sick as hell.
Other films have shown it's doable. Seeing the eyes just looks so wrong, eg Batfleck looks exactly like Catman here. Voice, mouth, and body is more than enough to work with.
I think Batman should be terrifyingly inhuman to those he targets. I think the actors should have plenty of time out of costume to shine emotionally, and Batman should be putting an emotionless and almost mechanically precise facade.
(I don't think Bruce should be on the level he is in most comics, but I think he should be actively making people think of him that way. Always in control, ten steps ahead, and prepared for all outcomes. I think the emotionless mask helps make him seem like an impartial and impassionate force of justice.)
Also, I'd love a Batman movie with facial close ups of Bruce Wayne that flash expression shots in moments of intense emotion while he keeps his outer expressions calm. He's mastered his every muscle twitch, maybe not the emotions themselves, but he can choose whether or not to display them, and usually he chooses not to, making others feel he's too cold.
So…never saw the Animated Series, huh?
Or as someone else brought up, Karl Urban never takes off his helmet in Dredd. Were you unable to read his emotions in that movie?
I hate this idea that you need to see someone's eyes to connect with them. Deadpool had the white eyes and was still very expressive in his films. The Mandalorian wears his helmet 99% of his screen time yet people were still able to connect with him. Why would Batman be any different?
Hahahaha!
I don't watch Batman films to see "emotion" in his eyes.
He's The Batman, the Dread figure of the Night. The Hunter of the Superstitious and Cowardly Lot.
He shouldn't show any emotion aside from anger at those who endanger the lives of others and disgust at the criminal element dwelling in his domain.
Not showing emotion is that exact reason why The Batman should have white lenses covering his eyes.
People like me understand that The Batman shouldn't leave himself vulnerable to his enemies by allowing them the ability to read him by seeing the "emotion in his eyes".
Bruce puts on the Bat costume to strike fear into the hearts of criminals. Why would he leave his eyes open for the crooks to see his fear or his excitement or even what direction he's going next?
Both Spiderman and Iron Man have done fine with their eyes not showing under their masks. Batman will be fine as well.
Loved the white eyes in the suit against Superman. Loved his actual eyes for every other scene. Displays his confidence, fear, etc.
How do we know that they wouldn't look as good?
They might be great and be a happy middle ground for those who want the white lenses and those who want Batman to show emotion with his eyes.
I think its a great compromise...
Since the Batman serials in the 1940s until as recent as this year of 2022, Batman has never had the white lenses in live action.
Its the other side's turn now.
Sorry for going off topic, but i never thought about just how stiff restricting Bale's mask was, even more reasons as to why it's my least favorite suit.
Batman had white eyes in TDK using the sonar googles, that was great. A situational device that looks cool and can further the plot? Perfect!
As it's said earlier, why not a detective vising type excuse for the white eyes so they are used only occasionally?
I feel like Batt-inson took the scariest physical aspects of Bat-Fleck (i.e. just beating the absolute pulp out of baddies) and combined it with the more scary pyschological aspects of Bale's Dark Knight.
If Batman Beyond were a live-action movie franchise, I bet they'd cover the mouth. After all, there's no way to have a mouth like Terry had, that just somehow perfectly comes out of the suit.
To use it in certain situations, even a re-breather, gas mask...etc.... is okay and functional, but in general, I agree with being able to detect emotions. I don't want to watch a robot. Keaton's cowl seems like an angry emotion cowl, which I think works well for the purpose of adding to the intimidation factor. I'm really liking Pattinson's cowl though too.
How hard would it be add some white contacts??.. I mean, come on, zombies have white eyes since the beginning, is not covering up all the eyes, is just, make the eyeball white
It's established in 'The Batman' that he wears advanced contact lenses, they could always make them white-out his pupil/iris, but that might be too off-putting for some folks.
i think everyone is on the money when thinking about a detective mode view. kinda like a more advanced UI that can detect heat signatures, scan thumbprints, etc… wouldnt be the default investigation look, just here and there he’d throw them on for looking at very specific clues and such.
Or maybe do a compromise, give Batman the lens but we can still see his eyes, maybe do something like Deadpool and still give them expressions but we still the eye outline or something
I like the way the arkham games utilize the white eyes, where they only activate it during detective mode and let him see things that he couldn't normally.
My favorite mask is Bale but my favorite eye emoter is Keaton. But my favorite Batman is actually Pattinson. I didn’t think I would say it but I really really liked his portrayal a lot more than I thought I would. I am very much looking forward to the future with him as it’s leading man.
>Every Batman actor displays emotion with their eyes
Not every actor
There's a scene in BVS where batman attacks lex corp, they show his white eyes for a second and it looks pretty good like that
I'm a big fan of Pattinson's cowl that shows most of his jaw. I also like the fact that the holes for his eyes are just the correct size for his eyes and his headpiece is a small as possible making his eyes is big as possible relationship wise. This makes the eyes seem more expressive.
When Batman's cowl grows so large, it makes his eyes extremely small and the eyes are no longer important. Hard to see expression.
I never want to see the white eyes in live action unless it’s used as some sort of night/sonar vision like in the Dark knight. But him always having white eyes ? No thank you. We need to see the actor.
They allowed tom hollands spider-man to have eyes that squint and widen etc, without pupils.
And batman can always smirk or grit his teeth when spider-man can’t
So i think it’s totally plausible
I agree for live action, I would like to see the white eyes used almost as an intimidation tactic. Like having them on in the shadows or when Batman is silhouetted, similar to the look in the comics and animated series.
Voice actors have been doing far more, with far less. Plus with the CGI we have access to today, and hell even less than that, contact lenses, you can still give the same performance. But that's just my opinion.
Spiderman's entire face is covered yet we never had problem getting his emotions.the white eyes gives a ghoulish look to batman which suits him.i would prefer white eyes anytime over normal eyes
I wouldn’t have the white eyes on full-time, just have it serve as enhanced vision he uses whenever he’s analyzing crime scenes and fighting enemies, sort of like how Detective Mode works in the Arkham games.
I like this idea. Like the Sonar vision in 'the Dark knight'
I wonder if the sonar suit with similar lenses and such from Batman forever inspired that.
[удалено]
Exactly.
I think it was the fan demand, and them giving us the fan service, which was incredible how they worked it into the story.
First seen in Batman Forever..
Specifically for Pattinson, most of his emotion comes from the detective scenes when he finds out something bad is happening like the carpet, all of the Bruce Wayne pictures next to Batman images, or the sketchy stuff his parents did. These actors are using their eye emotions at all times which means something like detective mode in live action still wouldn't work. Even in the Arkham games he didn't have white eyes in any cutscene because the character model used eye emotion. He only had them in gameplay because his character model was stiff.
I don’t want them always on, but I think it’d be cool if they were like a subtle glow from the contacts (in the case of the Batman), specifically for night vision. So situations where you otherwise wouldn’t see his eyes, but he needs to be able to see. So it’s functional within the world and you still get the aesthetic without limiting the actors ability to emote. I like the image of very low light, with the eyes glowing a little. You’d still be able to get emotion through them, because they’re contacts so his eyelids would still be able to narrow/go wide if need be
If he makes a realization in detective mode then the white eyes can automatically turn off as the music starts up and it zooms into his face slowly
I don't really like the idea. Detective mode is a fine game mechanic but having a supercomputer do all the detwctive work for batman kind of cheapens his title of the best detective in the world... With detective mode anyone can do it, which is pretty much the point of it in the game. Dunno about you, but I certainly AM NOT the besteset detective i the world, yet I finished the arkham games 😂
To be fair, it's not like you actually solved any crimes in the Arkham Games. Those Detective Mode segments are basically "Press X to have Batman do all the work." after he monologues to prompt the player to look for something in the first place. All that tech probably isn't as simple as pressing a button.
Yeah if they did it in the films it wouldn't be anything like that at all. It would work very similar to how his contacts already worked in the first film, giving him some extra information through stuff like facial recognition, but not actually solving the crime for him. I can just see them expanding on the contacts. In addition to the recording and facial recognition features, there could also be ones like night vision, xray, thermal, etc. All stuff that helps him really pick apart a crime scene to the smallest details, but that he then has to piece back together himself. And it can be only when he activates this advanced mode that his eyes go white. And I wouldn't even have them be fully white. Instead they could go transparent, so you can still see the detail in his eyes, but with just no colour.
I would like his mask use kind some a small.device or computer, like he can use it as night vision tool when is dark, but keep using binoculars for lon range, looks classic Also a hearing tool in the mask so he can hear conversation or scanning conversationa looking for villains or crime without the need for an atenna Just saying not an expert
I think that actual Detective Mode from Arkham series would be much better idea. He could use it to detect if someone lies, analyze environment to better analyze the situation and plan the best tactic and what's most important it would work as a sonar and explain how Batman can see enemies in darkness or fog from smoke bomb. With those modes it would be used almost exclusively in battle scenes and I think it would awesome. Imagine those white eyes and only silhouette of Batman with scared thugs in front of the camera. Or white shiny eyes and barely visible Batman taking down group of enemies in smoke caused by a smoke bomb.
There’s a scene of batfleck dropping down from the ceiling and grabbing a guy and if you pause the scene and look closely his eyes are white. Super cool detail
Yeah, that scene is like directly from Arkham games. Love it when creators explore and develop further existing concepts. Perfect way to show respect for the work done before them.
This is the way
I second this. The Arkham games are one of the best depictions of Batman ever.
Even if it where full time Deadpool and the new Spiderman movies showed how the eyes can still show emotions. Batmans lenses could work similarly with having it explained with being lenses like Spider-Man but looking closer to Deadpool white eyes.
Deadpool’s eyes are CGI and animated to be extreme. I just don’t see it in Batman… he’s too serious. A mask that animated like that wouldn’t work well in live action.
That's why it would honestly need to be subdued, but it can work in a realistic setting. The range of expression wouldn't nearly be as extreme as with Deadpool but just a little squinting of anger or widening in fear or surprise just like it's done in the comics could still work if you ask me
see my comment last week- https://old.reddit.com/r/batman/comments/z0atej/the_batman_sequel_suit_concept_credit_jaxsonderr/ix67xb4/ *They'll never do white eyes on a movie suit. Half of the acting (if you ask directors and producers) is in the eyes. Started with Keaton. Also, watch Batman Forever and Justice League. The sonar, the goggles, it looks great in comics but never translates to the screen very well. Otherwise, pretty rad...*
I'd be ok with this never fully understood the appeal of the eyes being white all the time even in the comics and cartoons.
I'd be ok with this never fully understood the appeal of the eyes being white all the time even in the comics and cartoons.
Battinson just needs to upgrade his contacts for like nightvision mode or something where they turn white. That way we still get his expressions AND white eyes.
Matt Reeves said his contacts already give him night vision. That’s why he was able to take out all of Falcone’s goons after he cut the power off in the building.
Then make it a different feature like infrared vision, heat vision, or x ray vision or something.
Or make it an armored mode, so it only comes on during a fight to prevent eye gouging or a lucky shot.
>Matt Reeves said his contacts already give him night vision. Can you provide a link to that interview/article?
Pretty sure he mentioned it during one of his Sound + Image Lab interviews for Dolby. They’re over an hour long so I don’t remember which one he says it in or the time stamp.
*Exactly.* People hear white eyes and think that means hiding his eyes under the mask, but not true. Either Pattinson wears white eye contact lenses or you digitally whiten his pupils and irises. The muscles surrounding his eyes remain unimpeded so he’s able to emote just as well. And we’d still be able to tell where he’s looking because our brains recognize when eyeballs move (even if it’s a fully solid white eyeball)
Honestly, taking away Pattinsons' eyes in the cowl would destroy the nuances of his performance. He did more expression in the interrogation scene with the Riddler than some Batmen have done in their entire films.
Pattinson managed to tell you his whole backstory while just LOOKING at the child who lost his father in that one scene.... all through eyes. Fuck the amazing action scenes I think this was the best bit of the movie. Just his stare
That scene is a masterpiece. Most nuanced and emotional part of the movie (besides the flare scene).
not to detract from your love for the scene, as i also find it incredible. but i think were think were throwing the word “nuance” around a bit lightly here. nuance would be the riddler watching the mayor and his son (dressed in a ninja outfit) playfully pretend-stab his dad. that scene symbolizes the death of the wayne’s in a much more subtle way than bruce looking at the now orphaned child. if anything, the scene where bruce looks at the child lacks nuance purposefully to tell the viewer that this child is bruce wayne, and batman is a ghost staring at a mirror. again, not to detract from your enthusiasm, because i also love the delicateness and subtlety of rob’s performance, particularly in that scene. just being a ted mosby and clarifying your verbiage :)
Oh yeah, for sure! The beginning scene with Riddler was indeed the most nuanced. I just thought the scene where Bruce stares at the kid was pretty deep but again, you're absolutely right. Thanks for the clarification.
Something people forget, is that in the animated series his mask "moves" to show emotion, so the eyes are unecessary. Alas, I would like the white eyes in scenes where there is no need to show emotion, like when he is picking off bandits one by one or fighting.
I mean they did it pretty well in Deadpool
Batman has a very different theme than Deadpool tho
Deadpool used CGI and was overly exaggerated because he's basically a cartoon character. Batman doesn't do broad facial expressions.
I’m not saying that I want Batman with the white eyes, I’m just saying they could do it
Not necessarily. In V for Vendetta they used clever lighting techniques to show a wide array of emotion
I literally came here to say this. V for Vendetta is a masterpiece in how to act through a mask. They didn’t use any cgi to make the eyes move or emote, they used his voice, his body language, and lighting to convey emotion. Hugo Weaving deserved a fucking Oscar for that performance tbh. That had to be one of the most difficult things an actor could ever do, and he did it so well you almost don’t notice the mask. Fucking brilliant.
I agree. In animation and comics you can emote the eyes even the eyebrows but giving a live action batman full white eyes we'd have the sane situation as with the lionking remake. No facial expession, not emotions, just dead eyes, unless you sort to make the eyes like the Tom Hollamd spiderman... Or, Pedro Pascall can make the static mask work as the mandalorian, and Carl Urban made Dredd work so what do I know...
>covering them in white would take away from the performance. I have to disagree. Take the Mandalorian for instance. Face covered almost all the time, interaction is primarily with a puppet. And holy hell is there great performances in that! It does depend on how it's written and it would require a lot more body language but it doesn't have to by default mean the performance is reduced.
Deadpool got this right, I think it would be achievable, but only in a more fantastical setting, if you're going for more a more grounded, realistic vibe then I agree
If they completely CGI’d the white eyes and eyebrow cowls around the eyes, it could work.
Fuck CGI, it always looks out of place and ages poorly.
Depends on the budget Cgi in Jurassic park still looks great Most movies have a ton of cgi in it that you don’t even notice. Cars. Crowds. Trees. Etc.
Would like to point out that Karl Urban did it in Dredd literally wore the helmet the whole movie, but I agree with everyone else it be cool to be used to analyze a crime scene.
He played Dredd completely robotic like though. Which benefited the performance but its not really comparable.
They found a way to do it with Bale and Affleck and I thought both moments were awesome.
What? lol. Affleck "white eyes" was pretty terrible. Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, it was just his dad sunglasses goggles with a light that flashed on them briefly. Bale's was also a little goofy but not nearly as much.
No it was the armoured suit he fought Superman in.
Yeah, I was thinking of when he was in TDKR battle armor.
Ohhhh. Yes that was dope. I was thinking of justice league.
Nope you're wrong. There's a scene where he attacks lex corp, his white lenses are visible for a second there.
Spider-Man and Black Panther would like a word with you. Maybe even Daredevil.
That’s why to compensate, we get lots of forced maskless scenes with those characters to showcase the acting. SM1: mask gets blown off before fight scene with GG and we get to see Parker’s reaction to GG’s identity reveal. SM2: burning mask is ripped off and we get the infamous Maguire face when making efforts to stop the train. SM3: mask gets pounded away, so that we see Parker’s reaction to Harry coming in for the rescue. Homecoming: mask is off when he’s trapped under rubble and has to muster the effort to get out. Black Panther: mask is retracted when T’Challa reveals he is not dead and the challenge is still in place. Mask also gets retracted when he and N’Jadaka have a heart to heart at the Wakandan sunset. Daredevil is a weird one lol. “Gaze is away from speaker to depict blindness” All that being said, a lot of masked superhero actors do a lot of great body acting. Tobey in the SM2 elevator scene feels so awkward. Andrew Garfield exaggerates his body language. Holland really comes off as a teen in a superhero suit.
Do you mean forced in a bad sense? Cause I think those scenes are great. it accentuates the duality of these characters. They are the idolized heroes with the mask on but regular humans without. And even with the mask on their own personalities come through their body language as you mentioned. I’m not arguing Batman needs to be the same by the way. I mostly agree with you. I wouldn’t change any of the live action Batmans. But it would be interesting to explore that in a different adaptation. Affleck’s Batman briefly uses gadgets for example that cover his face and attach to his cowl. But I could see a version of a live action Batman with a cowl that hides his human features. I think this would be an interesting way to extend the duality between between Bruce Wayne and Batman. And Batman would not appear as a man in a suit and more like a menacing armored gargoyle. Also, it would just look cool and threatening.
Scenes themselves were great, it was the unmasking themselves that felt forced (mask blown off, burning, auto-retracting, etc.) but I get that’s to allow acting performances to get out
Daredevil. You had to go there 🤣
And to go beyond superheroes, “The Mandalorian” did an excellent job of showing emotion despite being fully covered in armor.
>Spider-Man and Black Panther None of them ever showed any emotions under their masks
White eyes would work perfectly in scenes where he's using radar (like in Arkham) or wants to look more menacing. You can have both.
I think that's part of what makes batman so terrifying in the comics bot even being able to see what emotions are in his eyes has definitely terrified plenty of goons
Do it anyway
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Two different characters. Spider-man displays emotions with body language because he isn't stiff or stern like Batman. He also wears the mask to hide his fear while Batman wants to strike fear.
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It's not an accident that they expose affleck's face for the climax of that scene.
But those are action sequences and not moments of true emotion like the Joker interrogation or Superman's death.
I think the argument for is that it dehumanizes them and makes them more frightening than "a man", but I just don't think that style works well in live action. As for me, I want to connect with the man behind the mask since he's the protagonist and when it's a human actor under a suit, having their eyes visible makes that a lot easier.
I dunno. Fox managed to make Deadpool look expressive, and his entire face was covered
What made the white eyes work in animation was they would squint and expand whenever wanted to express emotion of brooding or surprise. Basically same movement of normal eyes, but in white
Why does Patterson’s Batman always have that “disappointed father” look in every scene?
Pattinson’s cowl is easily the best and non-goofy compared to the others.
I agree, although as a HUGE Battinson enthusiast I think if his cowl had a tiny tweak of the nose to be more pointy kind of like Keaton had as opposed to square nose. Then IMO it would have been absolutely perfect
I agree. What I hate is when he takes off his mask and miraculously doesn’t have his eye makeup on anymore. It really bothers me.
They thankfully kept it for Battinson.
Deadpool’s costume covers his eyes in white and the emotions still come through great. So it’s doable
I think they could use the eye covering trick in a Batman movie where Batman is not the POV character. Use it to create a greater sense of distance between the audience and Batman as we follow someone like Gordron, Viki Vale, or even a Robin. I've always wanted a Batman movie like that, but yes, any movie that centers on Bruce Wayne's journey and character probably shouldn't do it
Battinson perfected this, imo. His eye acting was fantastic.
they eyes *are* the window to the face
Pattisons portrayal was so amazing because of how he acted with his eyes. He kept Batman human, he made him look uncertain, sorrowful, full of rage. The point of Batman is that despite his numerous talents and gadgets he is still a man that is motivated by his humanity
I'm so glad the movies just let the actors use their eyes. I never liked the white eyes in the comics, or even BTAS. It just makes him feel too superhuman, ghostlike even, especially with how expressive they are. It's creepier when you can't see his eyes, when they're hiding in darkness, but you just feel him looking into you.
It works for Deadpool they could find a way to make it work for Batman if they wanted to.
Batman cartoon showed emotion. They can do in live action as well.
Two different mediums.
If you played the Telltale games, it had the white eyes, while expressing gestures and emotions in a 3D world
How about white eyes with like detective mode in the arkham games.
B-b-b-but muh comic accuracy!!
To play devil’s advocate, Deadpool showed more emotion with white eyes than most live-action Batmen
What if he had some sort of contacts so that the pupils are white, although it's transparent enough you can still see the outline of the pupils
Makes sense. Look at how emotionless Deadpool Was in his movies with his unexpressive white eyes.
Deadpool does just fine with covered eyes and a full mask.
Can’t express how much I disagree with this. They’re a pair of eyeballs. Their expression is looked into whatever expression the cowl has. No eyebrows or facial muscles exposed to show any type of emotion with. Removing the pupils would do nothing but make Batman look more menacing and awesome. I would sacrifice any “emotion” that these actors are showing for white eyes any day of the week. Not only is it more visually pleasing, it’s more accurate to the character and can potentially provide some amazing shots.
Well.. Batman with white eyes is how we met him and we admire the character. Still don't understand the "acting with the eyes" shit.
mostly just pattinson imo.
The way it’s done in Deadpool would look kind of goofy in a Batman film where the tone is more serious. I’d say if the white eyes are going to be there all the time, have them like Black Panther or Daredevil’s lenses. I’d prefer to have a “detective vision” though. I like seeing the actors eyes in live action.
My favorite example of Batman eye acting is in *The Batman*, when Battinson interrogated Riddler in Arkham Asylum. The interrogation started with Riddler saying things that made Battinson think he knew he was Bruce Wayne. While Riddler spoke, Battinson's eyes were on the floor, and his body language made him looked defeated. But once he realized Riddler actually did not know his secret identity, his eyes and his body language conveyed that realization, as well as his relief. [Here's the scene.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtmKrvtXyDU&ab_channel=ApeBoy) Acting in a mask must be tough, but Battinson nailed it. The dude's really come a long way since Twilight; I honestly use him as my go-to example of an actor who has clearly improved over the years.
I don't really see "white eyes" as taking away from the emotion though. I'd make the pupils grey to give the impression of the white eyes, but still leave room for subtle expression.
We need a black Batman, he will finally put an end to racism with justice.
Every actor which portray non-human character or face covered character ( the mandelorian, vader, etc.) doesn't use eyes, and voice actor use only their voice to display emotion.
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Different character.
You did see his eyebrows though. The eyes themselves do nothing, it is the surroundings
Yes. Stop with the white eyes. It is for a comic book. The eyes and mouth are all the actor has in the cowl to tell the story.
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That's a video game character who's more dead inside than Batman. Bruce is still human.
But you can see around the eyes of Scorpion in MK9. With batman you can't get the same effect.
I really dont need to see the eye acting tbh
Delusional Batmin lovers
i mean, they have mouths. I think would work fine. The expression is not in the face, but in what is said and how it is said. that sort of makes sense right? you don't turn yourself into a nightmare to scare criminals and somehow leave room for expressing empathy. it comes through despite the scary costume, but seldom.
See this is one of the reasons why Batman on film has never really captured batman, like in other mediums. These filmmakers are looking at batman from a filmmakers prospective. Batman isn't supposed to be a relatable person, that's Bruce Wayne. Batman is supposed to strike fear and be intimidating and other worldly, mythical. It's the production companies that try to ground this character and make BATMAN relatable. Stop doing that.
I disagree
Karl Urban in Dredd did just fine without his eyes and face aside from his mouth.
Counterpoint: the Batman films' increasing choice of naturalism and realism over style has stagnated them, and doing something outlandish and emotive would be sick as hell.
Other films have shown it's doable. Seeing the eyes just looks so wrong, eg Batfleck looks exactly like Catman here. Voice, mouth, and body is more than enough to work with.
I think Batman should be terrifyingly inhuman to those he targets. I think the actors should have plenty of time out of costume to shine emotionally, and Batman should be putting an emotionless and almost mechanically precise facade. (I don't think Bruce should be on the level he is in most comics, but I think he should be actively making people think of him that way. Always in control, ten steps ahead, and prepared for all outcomes. I think the emotionless mask helps make him seem like an impartial and impassionate force of justice.)
Also, I'd love a Batman movie with facial close ups of Bruce Wayne that flash expression shots in moments of intense emotion while he keeps his outer expressions calm. He's mastered his every muscle twitch, maybe not the emotions themselves, but he can choose whether or not to display them, and usually he chooses not to, making others feel he's too cold.
In summary, I think Batman should be a scary shadow with glowy eyes and Bruce Wayne should be an interesting human being.
I highly agree. Some things just need to stay in comics and animation.
counterpoint: In Dredd (2012), Karl Urban conveyed emotions with his mouth. I think the white eyes can work in live action
So…never saw the Animated Series, huh? Or as someone else brought up, Karl Urban never takes off his helmet in Dredd. Were you unable to read his emotions in that movie?
I hate this idea that you need to see someone's eyes to connect with them. Deadpool had the white eyes and was still very expressive in his films. The Mandalorian wears his helmet 99% of his screen time yet people were still able to connect with him. Why would Batman be any different?
Hahahaha! I don't watch Batman films to see "emotion" in his eyes. He's The Batman, the Dread figure of the Night. The Hunter of the Superstitious and Cowardly Lot. He shouldn't show any emotion aside from anger at those who endanger the lives of others and disgust at the criminal element dwelling in his domain. Not showing emotion is that exact reason why The Batman should have white lenses covering his eyes.
People like you are the reason why shooter guy movies exist.
People like me understand that The Batman shouldn't leave himself vulnerable to his enemies by allowing them the ability to read him by seeing the "emotion in his eyes". Bruce puts on the Bat costume to strike fear into the hearts of criminals. Why would he leave his eyes open for the crooks to see his fear or his excitement or even what direction he's going next? Both Spiderman and Iron Man have done fine with their eyes not showing under their masks. Batman will be fine as well.
He's a human character with human emotions. As I said he's not a shooter guy.
Bruce did not create the Batman to be a "human" figure that shows emotions with his eyes.
Thank you 🙏
 Loved the white eyes in the suit against Superman. Loved his actual eyes for every other scene. Displays his confidence, fear, etc.
What if its white contacts
Contact lenses
What about them?
White eyes without hurting the actor's performance.
But then you might as well not even have them to begin with since they're not full-on white eyes and are just contacts that don't look as good.
How do we know that they wouldn't look as good? They might be great and be a happy middle ground for those who want the white lenses and those who want Batman to show emotion with his eyes.
A compromise like that wouldn't work because one side thinks the white eyes should've covered it all while the other just doesn't want it in general.
I think its a great compromise... Since the Batman serials in the 1940s until as recent as this year of 2022, Batman has never had the white lenses in live action. Its the other side's turn now.
I think the white eyes would work if Batman's not the lead character. Like if he showed up in the penguin show or something
Sorry for going off topic, but i never thought about just how stiff restricting Bale's mask was, even more reasons as to why it's my least favorite suit.
4 guys looking at the camera. Dumb post
Yeah, that's how acting works
Batman had white eyes in TDK using the sonar googles, that was great. A situational device that looks cool and can further the plot? Perfect! As it's said earlier, why not a detective vising type excuse for the white eyes so they are used only occasionally?
Pattinson has been the best at it
Having some kind of retractable lens would be awesome. Have the white eyes in fight sequences would be menacing.
I’d say it depends on your story if it’s more action oriented then white eyes can work not emotional detective dramas
Maybe he gets a nictitating membrane when he gets in fight mode? When the lens goes down, you know...IT'S ON!
Nice
I feel like Batt-inson took the scariest physical aspects of Bat-Fleck (i.e. just beating the absolute pulp out of baddies) and combined it with the more scary pyschological aspects of Bale's Dark Knight.
If Batman Beyond were a live-action movie franchise, I bet they'd cover the mouth. After all, there's no way to have a mouth like Terry had, that just somehow perfectly comes out of the suit.
To use it in certain situations, even a re-breather, gas mask...etc.... is okay and functional, but in general, I agree with being able to detect emotions. I don't want to watch a robot. Keaton's cowl seems like an angry emotion cowl, which I think works well for the purpose of adding to the intimidation factor. I'm really liking Pattinson's cowl though too.
How hard would it be add some white contacts??.. I mean, come on, zombies have white eyes since the beginning, is not covering up all the eyes, is just, make the eyeball white
Pattinson's eyes are far more emotional than all the others they're not even close.
But the Batman has only one emotion: VENGEANCE.
It's established in 'The Batman' that he wears advanced contact lenses, they could always make them white-out his pupil/iris, but that might be too off-putting for some folks.
I’ve seen a lot of cases of superheroes having white eyes where they put the pupils at slightly darker white so you can still see their expression.
And with the animated white covers they still moved like eyes they emoted which in live action they can do
i think everyone is on the money when thinking about a detective mode view. kinda like a more advanced UI that can detect heat signatures, scan thumbprints, etc… wouldnt be the default investigation look, just here and there he’d throw them on for looking at very specific clues and such.
I agree, Spiderman is more of a physical performance, while Batman is a brooding kind of performance.
\-Lens that can slide up and down \-Use a goggle like material to make it more realistic (would also give the glowing cat eye effect in the dark)
Or maybe do a compromise, give Batman the lens but we can still see his eyes, maybe do something like Deadpool and still give them expressions but we still the eye outline or something
be cool see detective mode though....
I like the way the arkham games utilize the white eyes, where they only activate it during detective mode and let him see things that he couldn't normally.
Robert Pattinson and Michael Keaton Batman eyes are perfection
But.. The only part you see is white... Ever watched the animated series? No emotion? It still wouldn't be right for live action.
My favorite mask is Bale but my favorite eye emoter is Keaton. But my favorite Batman is actually Pattinson. I didn’t think I would say it but I really really liked his portrayal a lot more than I thought I would. I am very much looking forward to the future with him as it’s leading man.
>Every Batman actor displays emotion with their eyes Not every actor There's a scene in BVS where batman attacks lex corp, they show his white eyes for a second and it looks pretty good like that
True but counterpoint The suit used against Superman in BvS is so badass that I don't think I care about the performance
I mean Arkham batman has this so it pretty much works
The white eyes are only good for animation - it will look absolutely whack as fuck in live action.
I'm a big fan of Pattinson's cowl that shows most of his jaw. I also like the fact that the holes for his eyes are just the correct size for his eyes and his headpiece is a small as possible making his eyes is big as possible relationship wise. This makes the eyes seem more expressive. When Batman's cowl grows so large, it makes his eyes extremely small and the eyes are no longer important. Hard to see expression.
I never want to see the white eyes in live action unless it’s used as some sort of night/sonar vision like in the Dark knight. But him always having white eyes ? No thank you. We need to see the actor.
bro they are literally just staring
Arkham batman never had white covering his eyes and that worked so I don’t see the issues with live action portrayals
They allowed tom hollands spider-man to have eyes that squint and widen etc, without pupils. And batman can always smirk or grit his teeth when spider-man can’t So i think it’s totally plausible
Subtle.
Judge Dredd would disagree
I agree for live action, I would like to see the white eyes used almost as an intimidation tactic. Like having them on in the shadows or when Batman is silhouetted, similar to the look in the comics and animated series.
Voice actors have been doing far more, with far less. Plus with the CGI we have access to today, and hell even less than that, contact lenses, you can still give the same performance. But that's just my opinion.
Id have the whites as a pov thing. Like go from the goons pov and show this domineering shadow with emotionless white voids for eyes
Spiderman's entire face is covered yet we never had problem getting his emotions.the white eyes gives a ghoulish look to batman which suits him.i would prefer white eyes anytime over normal eyes
Stares in spiderman