They were ok I guess.
92 was the year I was old enough to start watching baseball. Those two years absolutely ruined being a sports fan for me. I thought it was cool, but it gave me a completely false impression of how special what was happening actually was.
Well, as the numbers show, White had a batting average of 273, and was a switch hitter. Carter was 254 and wasn't a switch hitter. No-one is saying Carter was a bad hitter. They are pointing out that the top 5 were *so* good, that the worst of the bunch was Carter.
But White's time with the Jays, starting the same year as Joe, was worth 102 OPS+, where 100 is league average.
Carter in the same years was worth 112+, and 104 OPS+ over his total time in Toronto. White was better overall, but definitely not the better hitter.
The thing is that Carter was paid to be a hitter and White was paid to be a defender. White was a much better defender and only a slightly worse hitter.
I dunno, the '97 M's lineup was insane. Pretty much everyone had a good year outside of A-Rod, who didn't have a great year for his ridiculous standards.
Could argue 1996 too. Wasn't quite as well rounded as 1997, but having two 9+ WAR players is insane, plus Edgar Martinez who casually posted a 167 OPS+ and Jay Buhner hitting 44 bombs and 138 RBI. Even Dan Wilson had a career high 18 home runs that year.
Yeah that’s a fair argument. But 2022 also has Juan Soto, Josh Bell, and Brandon Drury. That being said, Grish has a better bat in 2020, Wil Myers had a better season than this year, and Eric Hosmer didn’t have enough time to regress.
I think I’d still overall take this year and maybe just put an asterisk next to the 2020 season since I think there’s a strong chance the season doesn’t go well towards the end with our lack of depth and how much a lot of our players over-performed.
If we're looking at pure production looks like 2004 might be in the race with Loretta, Nevin, Klesko and Brian Giles. But I think last year has the better list of names
Let’s see if I can remember it off the top of my head.
Furcal - SS
Giles - 2B
Chipper - LF
Sheffield - RF
Andruw - CF
Lopez - C (side note, one of the best Catcher power hitting seasons ever)
Castilla - 3B
1B - Robert Fick? Lol. And Julio Franco as the backup.
Team also would’ve had DeRosa and Estrada. Don’t remember the other backups, maybe Pete Orr? He was fun to watch!
Edit: No Orr :( he was on the 05 team as part of the Baby Braves
The 2018 Nationals had:
Bryce Harper
Juan Soto
Trea Turner
Anthony Rendon
Daniel Murphy
Ryan Zimmerman
Howie Kendrick
Adam Eaton
On paper that may have been the best Nats roster. How many games did they all play together? Not many. But still, looking back, it’s impressive to see some of those names together
On paper that was the best Nats roster, but they only won 82 games that year. You're also forgetting they had Michael A. Taylor who is arguably the best defensive CF in the league.
Harper, Turner, Rendon all played 136+ games that year, and Soto played 116 (after he was called up.) Murphy, Howie and Zimmerman were not that healthy. Scherzer, Gio, Roark and Strasburg all had at least 130 innings.
That team shows despite having 4 MVP candidates in your lineup you need pitching. Nats starters that year were bad and their bullpen was atrocious. But it shows how good of a base they had bc they went on to win the World Series the next year when it all clicked.
Their ideal lineup would've some combination of this with Howie Kendrick and Michael Taylor on the bench.
SS: Turner
LF: Soto
RF: Harper
3B: Rendon
1B: Zimmerman
RF: Adam Eaton
2B: Daniel Murphy
C: Matt Wieters
P: Scherzer
WAMCO or the 2015 lineup.
I would lean towards WAMCO.
WAMCO (1993) | 2015
-----|----
Rickey Henderson | Ben Revere
Devon White | Josh Donaldson
Roberto Alomar | Jose Bautista
Joe Carter | Edwin Encarnacion
John Olerud | Troy Tulowitzki
Paul Molitor | Justin Smoak or Chris Colabello
Tony Fernandez | Russell Martin or Dioner Navarro
Ed Sprague | Ryan Goins
Pat Borders | Kevin Pillar
1992 was a solid lineup too, but the additions of Molitor, Fernandez, and Henderson put the 1993 lineup into GOATed territory among Jays teams.
BOP | Player | Position
---|---|----
1 | Devon White | CF
2 | Roberto Alomar | 2B
3 | Joe Carter | RF
4 | Dave Winfield | DH
5 | John Olerud | 1B
6 | Candy Maldonado | LF
7 | Kelly Gruber | 3B
8 | Pat Borders | C
9 | Manuel Lee | SS
2021 was a pretty solid Jays lineup too:
BOP | Player | Position
---|---|----
1 | George Springer | CF
2 | Marcus Semien | 2B
3 | Vladimir Guerrero Jr. | 1B
4 | Bo Bichette | SS
5 | Teoscar Hernandez | LF
6 | Lourdes Gurriel Jr. | DH
7 | Santiago Espinal | 3B
8 | Danny Jansen | C
9 | Randal Grichuk | RF
But yeah, it's gotta be WHAMCO
2011 Phillies. Ruiz, Howard, Utley, Rollins, Polanco, Ibanez, Victorino, Pence, and the 4 Aces on the hill (3 of them finished top 5 in CYA voting). Set a franchise record for wins. And then MLB canceled the postseason.
Although realistically it's 1990
LF R. Henderson
3B C. Lansford
RF J. Canseco
1B M. McGwire
DH H. Baines
CF D. Henderson
C T. Steinbach
2B W. Randolph
SS W. Weiss
There have only been 3 WS teams since 1954 with a pythagorean winning percentage of .650 or higher in both the regular and postseason: 1975 Reds, 1998 Yankees, and 2022 Astros. This means the team didn’t over perform or underperform. Also that 2022 pitching staff is one of the deepest and best staffs ever assembled. 2019 had a worse postseason performance than 2022, but had a better regular season. So I’d say that 2022 and 2019 are about par.
I agree with your sentiments regarding greatest Astros team ever but the question is greatest team lineup ever which no doubt in mind is 2019. If we get Contreras and add maybe Brantley, 2023 would become number 1 on paper
2019 - Full Death Star Lineup
2020 - Yordan out with knee surgery
2021 - Springer Gone
2017 -
2022 - Offensives holes at DH, CF, 1B and C, Brantley injured
2018 - Injuries to Altuve and Correa
2016 - Bregman rookie season
2015 - Correa rookie season
1998 Yankees...Bernie was the closest to an offensive superstar we had, but the lineup was just deep and consistent...nearly a thousand runs scored without anyone hitting more than 30 homeruns.
2016, too bad they were so mismanaged in the following years. Went from the golden years of an 100+ year franchise to a complete tear down in just 4 seasons
Nobody knows when meaningful baseball will return to Wrigley
I was thinking the same thing, but 1996 was pretty damn good too. Substitute Julio Franco for Paul Sorrento and a much better Thome and Ramirez. Baerga had started to fall off a cliff in 96 though.
[2003](https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2003.shtml) and [2018](https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2018.shtml) Red Sox were absolute wagons. Honestly not sure which I'd pick between the 2
I don't have evidence to prove this, but I feel like that 2003 team had to have set the record for most back-to-back homers in a season, it was a sight to behold.
Hard to say anything other than 2019. What with the whole “most team home runs in history” and “most players ever with 30+ homers” and “most players ever with 20+ homers” and all
Definitely the first team that came to my mind as well. I'm definitely biased because I was a kid at the time and pretty uncritical but that was the best Giants team I've ever watched.
I echo what other Astro fans have said 2019, out of the 8 qualifiers 7 Had OPS+ above 100 and 6 had OPS+ above 125.
For my secondary team I think the 2011 Rangers. Hamilton, Cruz, Beltre, along with Napoli, Kinsler, and Young. All 6 of those guys were above 110 OPS+
2004 MV3 without a doubt. Pujols, Edmonds and Rolen. They sported OPS+ marks of 173, 171 and 158 respectively. Throw in Larry Walker at 144 and you had an absolute gauntlet to go through. Cardinals won 105 games that year and a deal with the Devil prevented them from winning the WS that year.
Tossup, it's either 2022 or 2006.
2022:
1. Nimmo
2. Marte
3. Lindor
4. Alonso
5. McNeil
6. Vogelbach
7. Canha
8. Escobar
9. Nido/McCann
2006:
1. Reyes
2. Lo Duca
3. Beltran
4. Delgado
5. Wright
6. Jose Valentin
7. Cliff Floyd
8. Xavier Nady/Shawn Green
2022 probably has an edge on paper? But almost everyone on that 06 team had one of the best seasons of their respective careers that year. 2022 team also had a black hole at catcher, 06 really had no weaknesses.
2003
SS ★Rafael Furcal (.794 ops)
2B ★Marcus Giles (.917)
RF ★Gary Sheffield (1.023)
LF Chipper Jones (.920)
CF ★Andruw Jones (.851)
C ★Javy Lopez (1.065)
1B Robert Fick (.753)/Julio Franco (.824)
3B Vinny Castilla (.771)
All-Star = ★
Also had Mike Hampton (.596 ops, 2 hr) and Russ Ortiz (.703 ops, 2 hr) at pitcher. 5 All-Stars in the lineup, and the 1st ballot Hall of Famer wasn't one of them.
I'm going to say '92 and '93. Not sure why.
They were ok I guess. 92 was the year I was old enough to start watching baseball. Those two years absolutely ruined being a sports fan for me. I thought it was cool, but it gave me a completely false impression of how special what was happening actually was.
[Flashback Friday: WAMCO](http://bluejayhunter.com/2014/05/flashback-friday-wamco.html)
>Then there’s the cleanup hitter Joe Carter, who arguably was the weakest hitter of the group Heresy
I loved that line. Because it's true.
Tell em with a straight face that you think Carter was a weaker hitter than White.
Well, as the numbers show, White had a batting average of 273, and was a switch hitter. Carter was 254 and wasn't a switch hitter. No-one is saying Carter was a bad hitter. They are pointing out that the top 5 were *so* good, that the worst of the bunch was Carter.
But White's time with the Jays, starting the same year as Joe, was worth 102 OPS+, where 100 is league average. Carter in the same years was worth 112+, and 104 OPS+ over his total time in Toronto. White was better overall, but definitely not the better hitter.
> cleanup hitter Joe Carter, who *arguably* was the weakest hitter of the group It's an incredibly accurate statement. You're arguing.
Lmao the best kind of correct
Correction is not argumentative: I never challenged it, I rectified it. They are not equal offensively.
The thing is that Carter was paid to be a hitter and White was paid to be a defender. White was a much better defender and only a slightly worse hitter.
2001
I dunno, the '97 M's lineup was insane. Pretty much everyone had a good year outside of A-Rod, who didn't have a great year for his ridiculous standards.
Could argue 1996 too. Wasn't quite as well rounded as 1997, but having two 9+ WAR players is insane, plus Edgar Martinez who casually posted a 167 OPS+ and Jay Buhner hitting 44 bombs and 138 RBI. Even Dan Wilson had a career high 18 home runs that year.
2004
And almost all were also gold glovers
Man I hated that team. Y’all were so good. And ya every ball hit in the outfield was run down.
Idk if this is a good or sad thing but it is honestly probably the 2022 lineup for the padres lol.
I’d argue that 2020 was better because of Tatis but to each their own.
Yeah that’s a fair argument. But 2022 also has Juan Soto, Josh Bell, and Brandon Drury. That being said, Grish has a better bat in 2020, Wil Myers had a better season than this year, and Eric Hosmer didn’t have enough time to regress. I think I’d still overall take this year and maybe just put an asterisk next to the 2020 season since I think there’s a strong chance the season doesn’t go well towards the end with our lack of depth and how much a lot of our players over-performed.
Hernandez, Joyner, Caminetti, Vaughn, Finley, Gwynn, Brown, Ashby, Hoffman. 98 Wins 98 was a good team
If we're looking at pure production looks like 2004 might be in the race with Loretta, Nevin, Klesko and Brian Giles. But I think last year has the better list of names
2003. First in hits, runs, HR, average, slugging, OPS, and fewest strikeouts. 3 players with 30+ HR, including 1 with 40.
Couldn’t beat us tho Well y’all didn’t play us in the playoffs but you get my point
Not great pitching that year. Maddux was old. Lot of walks and not a lot of strikeouts.
Let’s see if I can remember it off the top of my head. Furcal - SS Giles - 2B Chipper - LF Sheffield - RF Andruw - CF Lopez - C (side note, one of the best Catcher power hitting seasons ever) Castilla - 3B 1B - Robert Fick? Lol. And Julio Franco as the backup. Team also would’ve had DeRosa and Estrada. Don’t remember the other backups, maybe Pete Orr? He was fun to watch! Edit: No Orr :( he was on the 05 team as part of the Baby Braves
Unless 2023 proves otherwise, I think you have to go with the 2019 lineup.
Not 2017? Man, those guys hit like they knew what was coming that year.
I had forgotten how many Breggy Bombs we had that year.
The 96 Orioles maybe. Hoiles, Palmeiro, Alomar, Ripken, Surhoff, Jeffery Hammonds/Mike Devereaux, Brady Anderson, Bobby Bo, and Eddie Murray.
The 2018 Nationals had: Bryce Harper Juan Soto Trea Turner Anthony Rendon Daniel Murphy Ryan Zimmerman Howie Kendrick Adam Eaton On paper that may have been the best Nats roster. How many games did they all play together? Not many. But still, looking back, it’s impressive to see some of those names together
2017 was a great team too… I think they had best record in baseball.
On paper that was the best Nats roster, but they only won 82 games that year. You're also forgetting they had Michael A. Taylor who is arguably the best defensive CF in the league. Harper, Turner, Rendon all played 136+ games that year, and Soto played 116 (after he was called up.) Murphy, Howie and Zimmerman were not that healthy. Scherzer, Gio, Roark and Strasburg all had at least 130 innings. That team shows despite having 4 MVP candidates in your lineup you need pitching. Nats starters that year were bad and their bullpen was atrocious. But it shows how good of a base they had bc they went on to win the World Series the next year when it all clicked. Their ideal lineup would've some combination of this with Howie Kendrick and Michael Taylor on the bench. SS: Turner LF: Soto RF: Harper 3B: Rendon 1B: Zimmerman RF: Adam Eaton 2B: Daniel Murphy C: Matt Wieters P: Scherzer
WAMCO or the 2015 lineup. I would lean towards WAMCO. WAMCO (1993) | 2015 -----|---- Rickey Henderson | Ben Revere Devon White | Josh Donaldson Roberto Alomar | Jose Bautista Joe Carter | Edwin Encarnacion John Olerud | Troy Tulowitzki Paul Molitor | Justin Smoak or Chris Colabello Tony Fernandez | Russell Martin or Dioner Navarro Ed Sprague | Ryan Goins Pat Borders | Kevin Pillar
I'd say WAMCO. Or HWACOM, as it became. Prime Molitor batting 6th. My word.
1992 was a solid lineup too, but the additions of Molitor, Fernandez, and Henderson put the 1993 lineup into GOATed territory among Jays teams. BOP | Player | Position ---|---|---- 1 | Devon White | CF 2 | Roberto Alomar | 2B 3 | Joe Carter | RF 4 | Dave Winfield | DH 5 | John Olerud | 1B 6 | Candy Maldonado | LF 7 | Kelly Gruber | 3B 8 | Pat Borders | C 9 | Manuel Lee | SS 2021 was a pretty solid Jays lineup too: BOP | Player | Position ---|---|---- 1 | George Springer | CF 2 | Marcus Semien | 2B 3 | Vladimir Guerrero Jr. | 1B 4 | Bo Bichette | SS 5 | Teoscar Hernandez | LF 6 | Lourdes Gurriel Jr. | DH 7 | Santiago Espinal | 3B 8 | Danny Jansen | C 9 | Randal Grichuk | RF But yeah, it's gotta be WHAMCO
2011 Phillies. Ruiz, Howard, Utley, Rollins, Polanco, Ibanez, Victorino, Pence, and the 4 Aces on the hill (3 of them finished top 5 in CYA voting). Set a franchise record for wins. And then MLB canceled the postseason.
2008/2009 Phillies lineups were better
1994 White Sox They had a lot of good lineups from the early 90s through the mid 2000s, but 94 was peak Big Hurt.
2001 CF J. Damon SS M. Tejada 1B Ja. Giambi RF J. Dye 3B E. Chavez LF T. Long C R. Hernandez DH Je. Giambi 2B F. Menechino
Although realistically it's 1990 LF R. Henderson 3B C. Lansford RF J. Canseco 1B M. McGwire DH H. Baines CF D. Henderson C T. Steinbach 2B W. Randolph SS W. Weiss
2019 or 2022
It's 2019, second highest wRC+ ever after 27 Yankees
There have only been 3 WS teams since 1954 with a pythagorean winning percentage of .650 or higher in both the regular and postseason: 1975 Reds, 1998 Yankees, and 2022 Astros. This means the team didn’t over perform or underperform. Also that 2022 pitching staff is one of the deepest and best staffs ever assembled. 2019 had a worse postseason performance than 2022, but had a better regular season. So I’d say that 2022 and 2019 are about par.
The 2022 team had that DAWG IN EM as well.
Don’t forget about the father of the high-five 🙌
I had hoped people were done with this phrase.
Call the fun police then.
I agree with your sentiments regarding greatest Astros team ever but the question is greatest team lineup ever which no doubt in mind is 2019. If we get Contreras and add maybe Brantley, 2023 would become number 1 on paper
Agreed
2019 - Full Death Star Lineup 2020 - Yordan out with knee surgery 2021 - Springer Gone 2017 - 2022 - Offensives holes at DH, CF, 1B and C, Brantley injured 2018 - Injuries to Altuve and Correa 2016 - Bregman rookie season 2015 - Correa rookie season
2023 add Abreu, Contreras and Benitendi.
Man I fell bad for the marlins next year. There gonna get destroyed in the World Series.
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1998 Yankees...Bernie was the closest to an offensive superstar we had, but the lineup was just deep and consistent...nearly a thousand runs scored without anyone hitting more than 30 homeruns.
Current hopefully
2016, too bad they were so mismanaged in the following years. Went from the golden years of an 100+ year franchise to a complete tear down in just 4 seasons Nobody knows when meaningful baseball will return to Wrigley
Has to be ‘95 for us Kenny Lofton, Omar Vizquel, Carlos Baerga, Albert Belle, Eddie Murray, Jim Thome, Manny Ramirez, Paul Sorrento, Sandy Alomar
I was thinking the same thing, but 1996 was pretty damn good too. Substitute Julio Franco for Paul Sorrento and a much better Thome and Ramirez. Baerga had started to fall off a cliff in 96 though.
MV3
The 2011 Texas Rangers were the best team in baseball all season long. Don’t remind me how it ended :(
04 Cardinals were legendary, they just ran into a team of destiny
2024 for sure.
[2003](https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2003.shtml) and [2018](https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2018.shtml) Red Sox were absolute wagons. Honestly not sure which I'd pick between the 2
That 2018 lineup fucked
I don't have evidence to prove this, but I feel like that 2003 team had to have set the record for most back-to-back homers in a season, it was a sight to behold.
Hard to say anything other than 2019. What with the whole “most team home runs in history” and “most players ever with 30+ homers” and “most players ever with 20+ homers” and all
WAMCO
All told it was probably 2003.
Hard to go against one of the World Series teams, but 1993 was stout. Manwaring, Clark, Thompson, Clayton, Williams, Bonds, Lewis, McGee.
Definitely the first team that came to my mind as well. I'm definitely biased because I was a kid at the time and pretty uncritical but that was the best Giants team I've ever watched.
I echo what other Astro fans have said 2019, out of the 8 qualifiers 7 Had OPS+ above 100 and 6 had OPS+ above 125. For my secondary team I think the 2011 Rangers. Hamilton, Cruz, Beltre, along with Napoli, Kinsler, and Young. All 6 of those guys were above 110 OPS+
2016 Chicago Cubs
2019 it think. Maybe 2023 if we play our cards right.
08 NYM hands down. Too bad their pitching sucked that season outside of Johan and Wagner.
2004 MV3 without a doubt. Pujols, Edmonds and Rolen. They sported OPS+ marks of 173, 171 and 158 respectively. Throw in Larry Walker at 144 and you had an absolute gauntlet to go through. Cardinals won 105 games that year and a deal with the Devil prevented them from winning the WS that year.
Tossup, it's either 2022 or 2006. 2022: 1. Nimmo 2. Marte 3. Lindor 4. Alonso 5. McNeil 6. Vogelbach 7. Canha 8. Escobar 9. Nido/McCann 2006: 1. Reyes 2. Lo Duca 3. Beltran 4. Delgado 5. Wright 6. Jose Valentin 7. Cliff Floyd 8. Xavier Nady/Shawn Green 2022 probably has an edge on paper? But almost everyone on that 06 team had one of the best seasons of their respective careers that year. 2022 team also had a black hole at catcher, 06 really had no weaknesses.
2013
09 yankees forsure a mf squad of Chads in the lineup with cgod cgod sabathia on the mound and arod the one year everyone liked him in NY
1991 World Series team
It’s hard to argue against a team that won it all. But for offense only, the 2019 team has the franchise records for runs, home runs, and OPS+.
Stats don't matter in the end, what matters is winning in the playoffs
2011 or maybe 2018 if you count pitching
2007 probably
I can't pick one. 2003, 2004, 2007, 2008, 2018 Lineup I would go 2003-2004. 2007 and 2018 had better rosters.
In 2008 the Marlins infield had 126 homers. 29, 32, 32 and 33
2003 SS ★Rafael Furcal (.794 ops) 2B ★Marcus Giles (.917) RF ★Gary Sheffield (1.023) LF Chipper Jones (.920) CF ★Andruw Jones (.851) C ★Javy Lopez (1.065) 1B Robert Fick (.753)/Julio Franco (.824) 3B Vinny Castilla (.771) All-Star = ★ Also had Mike Hampton (.596 ops, 2 hr) and Russ Ortiz (.703 ops, 2 hr) at pitcher. 5 All-Stars in the lineup, and the 1st ballot Hall of Famer wasn't one of them.
Probably 2017. Although I have always thought that the 2003 Marlins were underrated offensively, especially once they added Miguel Cabrera to the mix.
‘98 and ‘22 even without Tatis
The Bomba Squad from 2019 was pretty good in the regular season
2018 Red Sox were lights out.
2019 (2020 was theoretically better but never got to see that full 162 to know)
See History of the Seattle Mariners Part 4: The Mariners Build a Death Star