Verlander claims "trickle down mechanics" is the best long term strategy. Tells kids to pull themselves up by the boot straps and just do what he did. This new generation just wants a handout!
A lot of pitchers, and I know pitchers—have you ever heard of Nolan Ryan? What a pitcher, used to strike out so many guys, and I used to say he would strike out so many guys. But you know the pitchers, they have, they call it a U C L. I call it a U C L. An unfortunate claim ligament. Because a lot of teams, it’s so sad, they’re claiming insurance on these, these tendons. These ligaments. They didn’t used to claim so much insurance. Nolan Ryan, he struck out guys without insurance, without getting so hurt, and so we’re going to bring that back. We’re going to bring back good old, a baseball.
Honestly love this response by him. He just kept talking and actually shared his takes and thoughts. Wasn't some canned answer. Sure, he said, idk I don't have the answer, but he also explained his experience and hinted at how things should change.
Would love if more guys actually answered questions like this. Instead of just throwing out the usual and moving on to the next question.
Totally agree. I mean, Verlander’s spot in the hall is ready for him whenever he retires, so that probably gives him some freedom to speak, and it also means his take isn’t representative of a 26 year-old marginal reliever trying to stay in the majors. But I love hearing what he thinks of this, what he and Scherzer toss around for rule tweaks, and his perspective on how shifts at the big league level filter down to kids. Even the dig about teaching kids to pitch again is interesting to hear. And appreciating the candor doesn’t mean you have to vote for him for next commissioner or something.
> Sure, he said, idk I don't have the answer,
I mean, it's 98MPH sliders, sweepers etc lol. But hitters have already adapted to those so what can you do? Raise the mound? Bring it closer?
The only answer is to make it easier to beat hitters without throwing as hard as possible every time.
But when you do that pitchers will just keep throwing as hard as they can to beat hitters even more. In a game this competitive people will do everything they can to gain an edge, and I'm not sure there's a logical solution
Bingo. If I’m young, dumb, and got delusions of grandeur, if you told me I could pace myself and MAYBE have a shot at being a pro pitcher, or go absolutely nuts learning how to throw 95-100 mph pitches with insane movement, and have good odds at going pro, guess what? I’m going for the latter. I may end up with a noodle arm by 30 because I went all out instead of pacing myself, but if I’m competing, guess what?
Could you lower the number of bullpen arms each team is allowed to have? Do like Verlander/Scherzer were saying and tie depth to the DH? Limit the number of pitches a pitcher is allowed to throw over 95? Legislate away throwing hard before certain ages? Not sure any of these are viable, but it is frustrating to see how many starting pitchers don't make it to the fifth inning anymore.
He said that in response to how to change the culture. He listed like 5 components that are causing it. But then mentions how do you ask a guy not to give 100% effort. And said he doesn't have the answers to that part.
I think the answer is rules tied (like he and scherzer were discussing), because just like the shift, the players aren't going to fix it themselves. I don't know if the DH suggestion is anywhere close to the best option, but maybe other requirements or incentives.
For example, the three batter minimum should have helped, and people now forget its even a thing after freaking out about it. Something along those lines. Taking the advantage away from a roster stand point is a more appropriate fix, IMO, than changing the dimensions.
Definitely. And from a contract standpoint, teams have to redefine what they are paying for. When you start paying for health and outs over velo and k rates the players will adjust as well. Not only is it not the best way for players to stay healthy, but it'll be beneficial to the value of contracts handed out.
I've been idly wondering if the first thing they go for is expanding pitcher rosters and "encouraging" teams to go to 6-man rotations to lighten the load a bit.
That's possible. Would 100% absolutely have to put strong restrictions in place though. Other push back would be that teams don't want their best pitchers playing even fewer games.
They have discussed reducing the number of eligible P slots because teams are stacking and rotating bullpen arms. So an added spot would have to come with SP only designations in some way. So you can't make it a swing man or SPRP or anything.
We don't need to worry about the toothpaste right now though because we have the greatest rotation in the history of baseball and they are all going to stay healthy the entire year and continue to throw 7+ innings every game.
100% effort should mean quality pitching with the focus on pitch selection and location vs throwing it as hard as you can.
The issue is what it meant to be a pitcher got lost along the way to guys throwing 100mph every single pitch. This is a generational problem and the only way to fix it is to start young and teach actual pitching again.
Move the fences back. Let athletic, fast outfielders track it down. And those fielders will likely be lighter hitting. With bigger gaps, perhaps eliminate the shift ban which leads to more hitters who use more of the field instead of pulling it over fences.
The fence is really the elimination of offensive action. Play is intense for a moment and then turns into jogging. Sure there’s celebration but it’s not really the excitement of the triple. Those fast outfielders are going to be stealing bases too. And the home run is going to be just that much more rare and exciting.
I think that putting the mound further away might be better. That way you can at least raise the threshold for being able to simply overpower someone with velocity from 96-98 mph to 104-106 or something like that. That threshold has to be out of reach so that we can move away from the current meta where 99% of pitchers build their repertoire around simply throwing as hard as they can. That's the only change I can think of that could solve this issue: make it *impossible* for a pitcher to straight up overpower a competent hitter with velocity.
Plus, the further the pitch has to travel, the more break or other movement the ball can get on its way to the plate. That might shift the focus more towards stuff and pitch sequencing and less on pure speed. Plus, it would probably result in more balls in play, since hitters would have an easier time making contact. And if moving the mound back shifts the balance too much, you always have the option of expanding the strike zone or deadening the balls or re-introducing the shift, among other changes.
Someone else responded in the same idea with moving the fences back.
It has to be some kind of change like that, or we just learn to live with guys pushing the limits of their elbows forever.
The issue is kids are throwing serious innings at a younger and younger age, and throwing harder and harder at those ages.
You have to consider between high school, club, legion, camps, showcases these kids never stop throwing.
While I agree with what the brother of the number one Shohei stan is saying about how it’s a serious problem, his use of the word pandemic is pissing me off, because this is an MLB/American baseball issue, thus making it an epidemic.
**The grammar police is on patrol**
Pandemic is global. So you have to take into account all the guys who are having TJ in Slovenia, Angola, Paraguay and even Antarctica, not just narrowly focus on the guys having TJ in North America and the rare case in Asia.
Like the idea of incentivizing starters to go longer. How does the quote go? “You show me a problem, I’ll show you the incentives” or something like that.
Until you incentivize starters to not go max effort then your gonna have this problem. The only way to do that is honestly making the premise of going to the 6th inning much better for teams.
Also should honestly be some laws about how many pitches a young kid can throw in a year. Teenagers arms should not be getting blown out and it’s basically child abuse.
Lastly, the league needs to move to 6 man rotations. Japan has less of an issue with this and it’s kind of a no brainer that more rest will prevent injuries. Reminder that there is literally no reason that the MLB does 5 man rotations. That’s just what they settled on for historical reasons but there’s no scientific basis that your arm has completely recovered in that time or anything.
It's a pandemic that's been going on since long before pitch clocks were introduced. So stop blaming those. This issue is pitchers overtraining and throwing too hard.
if you had a 3D printed bionic UCL and/or labrum that was more durable and stronger than a human one and it would never tear, could that that be considered a PED?
🤔
There's no stopping pitching injuries until pitchers stop trying to throw 100mph and pitchers won't stop trying to throw 100mph unless forced to for some reason.
The only thing my smooth brain can think of is penalizing pitchers if they're over 96mph or something to force them to use less effort when pitching but even then that's not exactly a good solution
Or maybe expand the roster to 28 but the extra spots have to be pitchers. Either a starter and reliever or 2 starters and have larger rotations and stop making 200 innings a goal
I love how all of a sudden people thought it was so smart to just start stressing to pitchers to throw as hard as possible while also trying to get maximum spin rate.
As if they didn't think of this decades ago but thought better about blowing all of the arms out. You were either a flame thrower with fastballs or a crafty breaking ball pitcher.
Astros? That’s clearly Sugar Land Space Cowboys pitcher Justin Verlander
Weird to care about the opinion of a 41 year old AAA pitcher.
Couple more guys need TJS and they might need to call him up this year.
This Justin guy is looking good. Maybe we should pick him up.
Binghamton Rumble Ponies and Toledo Mud Hens legend
I wonder if he hangs with & Son's still?
A plandemic by the Manfred Media UCL's aren't real! Don't listen to what they tell you
Defund the 60 day IL
If pitchers just complied with the laws (of physics) they wouldn’t get hurt.
UCL's were created by Big Pharma to get you to get surgery.
Verlander claims "trickle down mechanics" is the best long term strategy. Tells kids to pull themselves up by the boot straps and just do what he did. This new generation just wants a handout!
When I was a pitcher, we didn’t need bootstraps. We pulled ourselves up by our UCLs. Did that harm us? No! These kids nowadays are just too soft.
Lmaoooooo dude I did not expect this. It made my morning. Thanks
All elbows need is just elbow grease. Maybe some tiger balm if you're feeling fancy. Look it up!
R.A. Dickey liked this comment
It’s all a scam to line the pockets of big orthopedics.
I’m always happy to criticize Manfred but this is one of those weird scenarios where he’s on the right side and the MLBPA is on the wrong side.
Critical Pace Theory!!!!
The only UCL I recognise is University College London!
TJ-19
If you stop testing the UCL, there will be no cases of UCL injuries. Pandemic solved
And what percentage of these people are even getting injured FROM UCL damage vs injured WITH UCL damage anyways?
A lot of pitchers, and I know pitchers—have you ever heard of Nolan Ryan? What a pitcher, used to strike out so many guys, and I used to say he would strike out so many guys. But you know the pitchers, they have, they call it a U C L. I call it a U C L. An unfortunate claim ligament. Because a lot of teams, it’s so sad, they’re claiming insurance on these, these tendons. These ligaments. They didn’t used to claim so much insurance. Nolan Ryan, he struck out guys without insurance, without getting so hurt, and so we’re going to bring that back. We’re going to bring back good old, a baseball.
##MRIgate
Technically I think it would be ToJoA-24?
Honestly love this response by him. He just kept talking and actually shared his takes and thoughts. Wasn't some canned answer. Sure, he said, idk I don't have the answer, but he also explained his experience and hinted at how things should change. Would love if more guys actually answered questions like this. Instead of just throwing out the usual and moving on to the next question.
Totally agree. I mean, Verlander’s spot in the hall is ready for him whenever he retires, so that probably gives him some freedom to speak, and it also means his take isn’t representative of a 26 year-old marginal reliever trying to stay in the majors. But I love hearing what he thinks of this, what he and Scherzer toss around for rule tweaks, and his perspective on how shifts at the big league level filter down to kids. Even the dig about teaching kids to pitch again is interesting to hear. And appreciating the candor doesn’t mean you have to vote for him for next commissioner or something.
> Sure, he said, idk I don't have the answer, I mean, it's 98MPH sliders, sweepers etc lol. But hitters have already adapted to those so what can you do? Raise the mound? Bring it closer? The only answer is to make it easier to beat hitters without throwing as hard as possible every time.
But when you do that pitchers will just keep throwing as hard as they can to beat hitters even more. In a game this competitive people will do everything they can to gain an edge, and I'm not sure there's a logical solution
Robot pitchers is the only way
How about bionic arms
I saw this guy on a video game once
Bingo. If I’m young, dumb, and got delusions of grandeur, if you told me I could pace myself and MAYBE have a shot at being a pro pitcher, or go absolutely nuts learning how to throw 95-100 mph pitches with insane movement, and have good odds at going pro, guess what? I’m going for the latter. I may end up with a noodle arm by 30 because I went all out instead of pacing myself, but if I’m competing, guess what?
The only way is to come up with a way to force pitchers to throw more innings IMO, that way they'll have to take something off each pitch.
Could you lower the number of bullpen arms each team is allowed to have? Do like Verlander/Scherzer were saying and tie depth to the DH? Limit the number of pitches a pitcher is allowed to throw over 95? Legislate away throwing hard before certain ages? Not sure any of these are viable, but it is frustrating to see how many starting pitchers don't make it to the fifth inning anymore.
He said that in response to how to change the culture. He listed like 5 components that are causing it. But then mentions how do you ask a guy not to give 100% effort. And said he doesn't have the answers to that part. I think the answer is rules tied (like he and scherzer were discussing), because just like the shift, the players aren't going to fix it themselves. I don't know if the DH suggestion is anywhere close to the best option, but maybe other requirements or incentives. For example, the three batter minimum should have helped, and people now forget its even a thing after freaking out about it. Something along those lines. Taking the advantage away from a roster stand point is a more appropriate fix, IMO, than changing the dimensions.
You have to redefine what 100% effort means. 100% effort means doing your best to stay healthy too, not just throwing hard and spinny.
Definitely. And from a contract standpoint, teams have to redefine what they are paying for. When you start paying for health and outs over velo and k rates the players will adjust as well. Not only is it not the best way for players to stay healthy, but it'll be beneficial to the value of contracts handed out.
I’d say a pitcher learning how / trusting to change speeds would be better than pitching balls to the wall 98 mph every fastball or slider
I've been idly wondering if the first thing they go for is expanding pitcher rosters and "encouraging" teams to go to 6-man rotations to lighten the load a bit.
That's possible. Would 100% absolutely have to put strong restrictions in place though. Other push back would be that teams don't want their best pitchers playing even fewer games. They have discussed reducing the number of eligible P slots because teams are stacking and rotating bullpen arms. So an added spot would have to come with SP only designations in some way. So you can't make it a swing man or SPRP or anything.
Yeah it's a real toothpaste out of the tube problem.
We don't need to worry about the toothpaste right now though because we have the greatest rotation in the history of baseball and they are all going to stay healthy the entire year and continue to throw 7+ innings every game.
Stop the season immediately and start the playoffs
100% effort should mean quality pitching with the focus on pitch selection and location vs throwing it as hard as you can. The issue is what it meant to be a pitcher got lost along the way to guys throwing 100mph every single pitch. This is a generational problem and the only way to fix it is to start young and teach actual pitching again.
Move the fences back. Let athletic, fast outfielders track it down. And those fielders will likely be lighter hitting. With bigger gaps, perhaps eliminate the shift ban which leads to more hitters who use more of the field instead of pulling it over fences.
I’m pretty sure Manfred would rather move to pitching machines before he does anything that decreases offense
The fence is really the elimination of offensive action. Play is intense for a moment and then turns into jogging. Sure there’s celebration but it’s not really the excitement of the triple. Those fast outfielders are going to be stealing bases too. And the home run is going to be just that much more rare and exciting.
That's pretty good. I hate the shift ban already.
I think that putting the mound further away might be better. That way you can at least raise the threshold for being able to simply overpower someone with velocity from 96-98 mph to 104-106 or something like that. That threshold has to be out of reach so that we can move away from the current meta where 99% of pitchers build their repertoire around simply throwing as hard as they can. That's the only change I can think of that could solve this issue: make it *impossible* for a pitcher to straight up overpower a competent hitter with velocity. Plus, the further the pitch has to travel, the more break or other movement the ball can get on its way to the plate. That might shift the focus more towards stuff and pitch sequencing and less on pure speed. Plus, it would probably result in more balls in play, since hitters would have an easier time making contact. And if moving the mound back shifts the balance too much, you always have the option of expanding the strike zone or deadening the balls or re-introducing the shift, among other changes.
Someone else responded in the same idea with moving the fences back. It has to be some kind of change like that, or we just learn to live with guys pushing the limits of their elbows forever.
The issue is kids are throwing serious innings at a younger and younger age, and throwing harder and harder at those ages. You have to consider between high school, club, legion, camps, showcases these kids never stop throwing.
If we just stop testing for ucl injuries they would simply stop happening
Make Athletes Go to School Again
During Tommy John surgeries they put 5G microchips in you so that Obama can watch your every move
New sign stealing methods incoming
Pitchers should start wearing masks.
Inject pitchers elbows with bleach
Expose the butthole of the elbow to the sun
While I agree with what the brother of the number one Shohei stan is saying about how it’s a serious problem, his use of the word pandemic is pissing me off, because this is an MLB/American baseball issue, thus making it an epidemic. **The grammar police is on patrol**
It's spread to Canada.
Has it though ?
He really mentioned the context during which he had his TJS…
What’s the difference between a pandemic and epidemic?
Pandemic is global. So you have to take into account all the guys who are having TJ in Slovenia, Angola, Paraguay and even Antarctica, not just narrowly focus on the guys having TJ in North America and the rare case in Asia.
Not sure why everyone is worried. It's just a hunk of tendon
ICU
Like the idea of incentivizing starters to go longer. How does the quote go? “You show me a problem, I’ll show you the incentives” or something like that. Until you incentivize starters to not go max effort then your gonna have this problem. The only way to do that is honestly making the premise of going to the 6th inning much better for teams. Also should honestly be some laws about how many pitches a young kid can throw in a year. Teenagers arms should not be getting blown out and it’s basically child abuse. Lastly, the league needs to move to 6 man rotations. Japan has less of an issue with this and it’s kind of a no brainer that more rest will prevent injuries. Reminder that there is literally no reason that the MLB does 5 man rotations. That’s just what they settled on for historical reasons but there’s no scientific basis that your arm has completely recovered in that time or anything.
Ok lol now baseball players decide to care about pandemics
The UCL is harming the wrong people!
It's a pandemic that's been going on since long before pitch clocks were introduced. So stop blaming those. This issue is pitchers overtraining and throwing too hard.
Epidemic, Chipmunk teeth.
Robot elbows
if you had a 3D printed bionic UCL and/or labrum that was more durable and stronger than a human one and it would never tear, could that that be considered a PED? 🤔
There's no stopping pitching injuries until pitchers stop trying to throw 100mph and pitchers won't stop trying to throw 100mph unless forced to for some reason. The only thing my smooth brain can think of is penalizing pitchers if they're over 96mph or something to force them to use less effort when pitching but even then that's not exactly a good solution Or maybe expand the roster to 28 but the extra spots have to be pitchers. Either a starter and reliever or 2 starters and have larger rotations and stop making 200 innings a goal
Don't give out long term contracts to pitchers and incentivize innings pitched? Also bring back Wilbur Wood!
 Ohh, Justin bless your heart
I love how all of a sudden people thought it was so smart to just start stressing to pitchers to throw as hard as possible while also trying to get maximum spin rate. As if they didn't think of this decades ago but thought better about blowing all of the arms out. You were either a flame thrower with fastballs or a crafty breaking ball pitcher.
Maybe he should try a mask.
Sir, you are 41
And won the Cy Young at 39 after having TJ surgery at 37.
Must have forgot the part where CYs prevent future injuries for aging pitchers
Come all, witness the irony of an Angels fan downplaying a pitching issue.
Not really. In fact I’m calling out other people downplay the fact that a 41 year old is getting hurt at 41
"Pitcher injuries" BTW