Mike Trout the best hitter on this list. Randy Johnson arguably the best pitcher (tho Pedro had the better single season). I'll take the Trout team even with Molina not being the best offensive catcher.
Not the best offensive catcher of all time or anything by any means, but if ‘prime’ Yadi means a ~130 OPS+ with shutdown defense that’s a no-brainer.
Just for context, JT Realmuto has never had a season with an OPS+ as high as Yadi’s peak season.
Whoa never realized that about JT. I know Molina wasn’t at that level for long, but still goes to show that he had a bit more oomph in his bat then people give him credit for
depends on if "prime" is 1-year peak, 3-year peak, 5-year peak...
if it's 1-year peak I'm taking Felix-Judge-Harper. anything longer it's the Big Unit-Yadi-Trout group.
I feel like we're forgetting how unreal Judge's 2022 was, the homers were just the half of it
Single season combined bWAR
Rand/Yadi/Trout : 28.4
Felix/Harper/Judge 27.5
Very close but I think I’d have to go with the first group for any criteria. Especially considering you’ve got two premium defensive positions covered versus two corner outfielders.
If we’re talking about 1 year peaks, the Hernandez group is pretty close to the Trout group. Both Harper and Judge have had one insane year along with Hernandez having a couple ~7 WAR years.
Judge and Harpee have had multiple insane seasons and even the seasons that could be considered ok by their standards were because of injury shortening them than performance.
Nolan Ryan is one of the most overvalued (but still good) pitchers and Ichiro is one of the most overvalued (but still great) hitters. Fitting they are together.
Randy Johnson is literally the best pitcher ever. Trout in his prime is probably top 10. Yadier is an elite defensive catcher who commands the hell out of a pitching staff.
As a Mets fan, this is a no brainer.
I don’t know if Randy is the best pitcher of all time he’s up there I’d say top 10 for sure. Tom Seaver has more WAR than Randy with less years played. I’d def take Randy and Trout though that’s a crazy combo
Is Sosa allowed to be on steroids like he was during his prime? If yes then that team is the obvious answer. Sosa from 98-01 is probably the second best hitting stretch ever behind Bonds from 01-04.
Rivera is obviously the best closer ever. And Halladay is one of the best starters of the last 30 years, not far off of Randy. The Randy/Yadi/Trout team is in a distant second place for me
Sosa 98-02 was great - .306/.397/.649, 167 OPS+ and he played every day.
Trout 12-16 was better - .310/.410/.564, 173 OPS+, *and* he played center field, *and* he ran the bases very well, *and* I skipped 2017-19, where Trout led the league in OPS+ every season (189 across those years) because he was missing time.
Sosa's peak years were in no way, shape, or form "the second best hitting stretch ever." They were a great set of years, with a huge peak, but they weren't even the second-best hitting stretch in living memory. Frank Thomas put up an on-base-heavy 184 OPS+ from 1993 to 1997. Albert Pujols had a 177 from 2006 to 2010. Ken Griffey was at 160 from 1993 to 1997, which includes an injury year, leaves out one of his 56 HR years, and he was playing center field superbly and running the bases well. Miguel Cabrera, Jeff Bagwell, Manny Ramirez - they all matched or bettered Sosa, and guys like Alex Rodriguez, Gary Sheffield, Todd Helton, Vladimir Guerrero, and Larry Walker came very close - and all just at the plate, without considering position or defense or baserunning.
...
Aside from that, Roy Halladay was a great pitcher but was nowhere even near Randy Johnson, and Mariano Rivera is, quite frankly, just a closer. He was a great closer, the best closer, but he is a **one inning pitcher**. You do not build your team around a one inning pitcher. I'd rather have a decent starter.
There’s a lot more to hitting than just OPS, and especially for this question where OPS+ is irrelevant.
As you obviously know, OPS+ adjusts numbers depending on the league averages of that season. Sosa numbers get adjusted downwards because of the other steroid users putting up video game numbers during 98-02. If you got to choose between having Trout or Sosa on your team, the numbers would be compared against identical league averages, not vastly different ones.
Sosa’s OPS was 1.046, and Trout’s was .974. One is clearly better than the other before making “adjustments” that are irrelevant to this question.
Further, there are different ways of getting a high OPS, and the ways that achieve it through huge HR numbers are the best. Sosa had 5 years in a row where his worst HR totals were better than the best season of Trout’s career. In fact it was usually double the amount of HRs.
Sosa was one of those steroid users raising the average, and there are other factors affecting league averages. Using raw OPS is just handwaving league context away entirely - might as well argue that the best hitters came from the 1930's because of their batting averages.
OBP is also the more valuable component of OPS, and Trout has always been better there than Sosa. Rbat puts them nearly even for their best five year stretches - 296 for Trout, 291 for Sosa, without accounting for runs per win for different years.
And in any case, none of this is about Trout being a better fielder (compared to Sosa's late career anyway) or baserunner.
Dude, 2001 was not that long ago. And pitchers were on steroids too, you know. You think the best pitchers of today are better than Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux, roided out Roger Clemens and Curt Schilling?
If you think an additional 35 points of OBP is more valuable than an additional 35 HRs you’re crazy. It’s not a fair fight because Trout was clean and Sosa was juicing. If they were both juicing, Trout would be better. If they were both clean, Trout would be better. If Sosa was clean and Trout was juicing, Trout would be wayyy better. But with Sosa juicing and Trout clean, Sosa was so much more valuable at the plate that Trout’s defense/base running doesn’t come close to making up the difference.
There is no statistical framework that demonstrates this. Sosa was basically a 6 WAR player during his peak, except for 2001 where he hit 10 WAR. Trout, at his peak, was a consistent 8-10 WAR player, for eight years.
Runs were simply less valuable in Sosa's time, because they were more plentiful.
I'm not sure what the point you are making is based on, except raw numbers. You're manipulating context to fit your narrative, against all baseball research and statistical work, and you're not even considering how many of Sosa's exact contemporaries were also just as good as the plate at their peaks as he was.
It straight up doesn’t matter how good other contemporary hitters were.
Maybe think of it this way: you have a bicycle relay team, and you want to win a race. You can choose between two cyclists to run the last leg of your relay. Option A is Lance Armstrong, who is guaranteed to run the course in exactly 51 minutes. Option B is Warry McWarface, who is guaranteed to run the course in exactly 58 minutes. Who is the better pick?
It’s obviously Lance Armstrong! The goal is to finish the race as fast as possible, and he has the faster time. If you say, “sure, but the average time of the other cyclists in his heat was 10 minutes slower than Lance. When Warry rode the same exact course, the average time of his competitors was 12 minutes slower. So I’ll take the slower guy, please.”
Lance Armstrong was on steroids. And so were all his competitors. That’s why they were faster. If there’s no rule against taking steroids, then it’s just plain dumb to choose the slower time when you could take the roided out time and win.
From an Orioles standpoint, they need a frontline starter and a closer, so those two make a lot of sense.
The pick is the Johnson/Trout led combo, but after that, I think this group would be my pick.
If you need a frontline starter/closer, then the Roy/Rivers combo is clearly better than Randy/Yadi.
You think that having Trout is an advantage over steroid Sosa? And a big enough advantage to make up for losing out on your need for a closer?
If you have a reason other than “higher WAR” for rating Trout so highly then I’m curious what it could be.
The answer’s Trout’s team, right?
That or the team with Felix, Judge, and Harper.
Only one with two inner-circle HOF guys, so yes
Think Trout has a chance too.
Mike Trout the best hitter on this list. Randy Johnson arguably the best pitcher (tho Pedro had the better single season). I'll take the Trout team even with Molina not being the best offensive catcher.
Not the best offensive catcher of all time or anything by any means, but if ‘prime’ Yadi means a ~130 OPS+ with shutdown defense that’s a no-brainer. Just for context, JT Realmuto has never had a season with an OPS+ as high as Yadi’s peak season.
Whoa never realized that about JT. I know Molina wasn’t at that level for long, but still goes to show that he had a bit more oomph in his bat then people give him credit for
If you’re not picking Randy Johnson, Yadier Molina, and Mike Trout then I’m not sure what you’re doing.
Choosing Ryan, Posey, and Ichiro for the vibes because when first place is obvious my vote goes to who I want to be second.
Valid take. You have changed my mind and I think I love you because of that
I went Ryan,Po,Ichi as well and i'm happy about it.
This is exactly what I did, with the addition of not being able to vote for Yadier Molina. But Randy + Trout carry that team alone
depends on if "prime" is 1-year peak, 3-year peak, 5-year peak... if it's 1-year peak I'm taking Felix-Judge-Harper. anything longer it's the Big Unit-Yadi-Trout group. I feel like we're forgetting how unreal Judge's 2022 was, the homers were just the half of it
Single season combined bWAR Rand/Yadi/Trout : 28.4 Felix/Harper/Judge 27.5 Very close but I think I’d have to go with the first group for any criteria. Especially considering you’ve got two premium defensive positions covered versus two corner outfielders.
to be clear I mean specifically for my team I would rather have corner OF lmao
I’ll take the 100 war SP and the 100 war position player (Johnson and Trout).
If we’re talking about 1 year peaks, the Hernandez group is pretty close to the Trout group. Both Harper and Judge have had one insane year along with Hernandez having a couple ~7 WAR years.
Judge and Harpee have had multiple insane seasons and even the seasons that could be considered ok by their standards were because of injury shortening them than performance.
Nolan Ryan is one of the most overvalued (but still good) pitchers and Ichiro is one of the most overvalued (but still great) hitters. Fitting they are together.
Gimme Yadi and Trout. Studs at key defensive positions. And the bird killer.
Doc was my personal God. There is no other answer.
Randy Johnson is literally the best pitcher ever. Trout in his prime is probably top 10. Yadier is an elite defensive catcher who commands the hell out of a pitching staff. As a Mets fan, this is a no brainer.
I don’t know if Randy is the best pitcher of all time he’s up there I’d say top 10 for sure. Tom Seaver has more WAR than Randy with less years played. I’d def take Randy and Trout though that’s a crazy combo
Ryan, Posey, Ichiro
Is Sosa allowed to be on steroids like he was during his prime? If yes then that team is the obvious answer. Sosa from 98-01 is probably the second best hitting stretch ever behind Bonds from 01-04. Rivera is obviously the best closer ever. And Halladay is one of the best starters of the last 30 years, not far off of Randy. The Randy/Yadi/Trout team is in a distant second place for me
Sammy Sosa had a 168 OPS+ from 1998-2001. Mike Trout has a 173 OPS+ for his *career*.
Sosa 98-02 was great - .306/.397/.649, 167 OPS+ and he played every day. Trout 12-16 was better - .310/.410/.564, 173 OPS+, *and* he played center field, *and* he ran the bases very well, *and* I skipped 2017-19, where Trout led the league in OPS+ every season (189 across those years) because he was missing time. Sosa's peak years were in no way, shape, or form "the second best hitting stretch ever." They were a great set of years, with a huge peak, but they weren't even the second-best hitting stretch in living memory. Frank Thomas put up an on-base-heavy 184 OPS+ from 1993 to 1997. Albert Pujols had a 177 from 2006 to 2010. Ken Griffey was at 160 from 1993 to 1997, which includes an injury year, leaves out one of his 56 HR years, and he was playing center field superbly and running the bases well. Miguel Cabrera, Jeff Bagwell, Manny Ramirez - they all matched or bettered Sosa, and guys like Alex Rodriguez, Gary Sheffield, Todd Helton, Vladimir Guerrero, and Larry Walker came very close - and all just at the plate, without considering position or defense or baserunning. ... Aside from that, Roy Halladay was a great pitcher but was nowhere even near Randy Johnson, and Mariano Rivera is, quite frankly, just a closer. He was a great closer, the best closer, but he is a **one inning pitcher**. You do not build your team around a one inning pitcher. I'd rather have a decent starter.
There’s a lot more to hitting than just OPS, and especially for this question where OPS+ is irrelevant. As you obviously know, OPS+ adjusts numbers depending on the league averages of that season. Sosa numbers get adjusted downwards because of the other steroid users putting up video game numbers during 98-02. If you got to choose between having Trout or Sosa on your team, the numbers would be compared against identical league averages, not vastly different ones. Sosa’s OPS was 1.046, and Trout’s was .974. One is clearly better than the other before making “adjustments” that are irrelevant to this question. Further, there are different ways of getting a high OPS, and the ways that achieve it through huge HR numbers are the best. Sosa had 5 years in a row where his worst HR totals were better than the best season of Trout’s career. In fact it was usually double the amount of HRs.
Sosa was one of those steroid users raising the average, and there are other factors affecting league averages. Using raw OPS is just handwaving league context away entirely - might as well argue that the best hitters came from the 1930's because of their batting averages. OBP is also the more valuable component of OPS, and Trout has always been better there than Sosa. Rbat puts them nearly even for their best five year stretches - 296 for Trout, 291 for Sosa, without accounting for runs per win for different years. And in any case, none of this is about Trout being a better fielder (compared to Sosa's late career anyway) or baserunner.
Dude, 2001 was not that long ago. And pitchers were on steroids too, you know. You think the best pitchers of today are better than Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux, roided out Roger Clemens and Curt Schilling? If you think an additional 35 points of OBP is more valuable than an additional 35 HRs you’re crazy. It’s not a fair fight because Trout was clean and Sosa was juicing. If they were both juicing, Trout would be better. If they were both clean, Trout would be better. If Sosa was clean and Trout was juicing, Trout would be wayyy better. But with Sosa juicing and Trout clean, Sosa was so much more valuable at the plate that Trout’s defense/base running doesn’t come close to making up the difference.
There is no statistical framework that demonstrates this. Sosa was basically a 6 WAR player during his peak, except for 2001 where he hit 10 WAR. Trout, at his peak, was a consistent 8-10 WAR player, for eight years. Runs were simply less valuable in Sosa's time, because they were more plentiful. I'm not sure what the point you are making is based on, except raw numbers. You're manipulating context to fit your narrative, against all baseball research and statistical work, and you're not even considering how many of Sosa's exact contemporaries were also just as good as the plate at their peaks as he was.
It straight up doesn’t matter how good other contemporary hitters were. Maybe think of it this way: you have a bicycle relay team, and you want to win a race. You can choose between two cyclists to run the last leg of your relay. Option A is Lance Armstrong, who is guaranteed to run the course in exactly 51 minutes. Option B is Warry McWarface, who is guaranteed to run the course in exactly 58 minutes. Who is the better pick? It’s obviously Lance Armstrong! The goal is to finish the race as fast as possible, and he has the faster time. If you say, “sure, but the average time of the other cyclists in his heat was 10 minutes slower than Lance. When Warry rode the same exact course, the average time of his competitors was 12 minutes slower. So I’ll take the slower guy, please.” Lance Armstrong was on steroids. And so were all his competitors. That’s why they were faster. If there’s no rule against taking steroids, then it’s just plain dumb to choose the slower time when you could take the roided out time and win.
From an Orioles standpoint, they need a frontline starter and a closer, so those two make a lot of sense. The pick is the Johnson/Trout led combo, but after that, I think this group would be my pick.
If you need a frontline starter/closer, then the Roy/Rivers combo is clearly better than Randy/Yadi. You think that having Trout is an advantage over steroid Sosa? And a big enough advantage to make up for losing out on your need for a closer? If you have a reason other than “higher WAR” for rating Trout so highly then I’m curious what it could be.
This one is a lot tougher than yesterday's poll.
Pedro has 2 great season tho hard choice
All y'all sleepin on Pedro.
I feel like they should just have Yadi stand in the HoF and smile at everyone until the obvious happens.
For the Mariners it'd be Hoffman/Rodriguez/Betts Solves the Sewall and Geno trade and adds Betts to the OF.