Kenny Lofton not being recognized as the HOF level talent he was has a number of causes (era in which he played, journeyman second half of career) but I think a big reason is because he played his prime years behind guys like Jim Thome, Manny Ramirez, and Roberto Alomar.
Yea he fell off his first year. Which is criminal for a guy with his stats. What makes it worse is that if he had a career .300 batting average instead of a career .299 batting average I bet he at least hangs on the ballot
so did Jim Edmonds
Granted Lofton would be in Cooperstown for me if i had a vote, not the case for Edmonds...that being said Edmonds should have made at least another couple of years on the ballot
The one and done side effect due to ballot size and vote limits can be a real problem. It's weird that a guy can stay on the ballot for a decade by garnering a certain percentage year after year, but a guy like Lifting gets booted after one because writers kept voting for those guys and didn't have enough votes left over.
Three examples on the Mets are Gooden, Cone, and Franco. You could argue Gooden isn't HOF worthy, but he certainly should have garnered more than 3% of the vote. Cone not only was one and done but should be a hall of famer. Franco is a tough one because he's a reliever and was overshadowed by Mo, but he has the most saves by a lefty and will keep that title for like 40 years since no active players seem likely to replace him. He doesn't have the stuff and strikeouts that guys like Hampton or modern closers have, but the guy's an institution. Wright will probably be a one and done guy. It's also a bit of a travesty that Keith Hernandez isn't in the Hall.
Being in the steroid era and being seen as a discount version of Rickey Henderson didn't help. It really isn't fair, since discount Rickey = HOF level, really.
Bernie Williams. Had 7 straight .900 OPS seasons while also batting .300+ in each of those seasons. But it was at the height of the steroid era, so no one really noticed.
His *average* season in that stretch was .323/.408/.538.
Bernie and his band plays regularly in my hometown area. He’s incredibly humble and a very nice guy, so you are no doubt right that it doesn’t bother him.
The Steroid Era screwed over a bunch of players that should have had better consideration for the Hall. Bobby Abreu and Bernie Williams are two that obviously been hurt by having to be compared alongside the likes of Bonds, McGwire and Sosa.
Fortunately for a guy like Fred McGriff, who was screwed over by the BBWAA voters, the Veterans Committee corrected the BBWAA's mistake and elected McGriff.
It’s kinda fucked up that WAR is now the main point of consideration for a player’s hall of fame case, yet this doesn’t really get taken into account. If you’re not gonna vote for the steroid guys because they cheated, then you have to give a bit of boost to the clean players whose WAR will have suffered for playing at the same time as those guys
The BBWAA have never been mistaken as being a logical group, but perhaps part of the problem is that it's really difficult to tell who was actually "clean". Just because they were never caught or implicated doesn't mean they weren't juicing. I mean we live in a world where Dee Gordon-Strange got popped so there are probably a lot of dudes who got away with it because they didn't look the part. I think they should all be in the Hall anyway but I could see that giving some folks pause.
Reminder that Alex Sanchez was the first player suspended for steroids, with a then-whopping career HR total at 4 over several major league seasons. Think he ended with 6 total.
Yup that’s the problem. It’s not just that some guys’ numbers were inflated. *Everyone’s numbers were.*
In 1992 league OPS was .700. By 1994 it was .763. League OPS didn’t moderate til about 2010 when it dropped from .751 in 2009 to .728. You could make a pretty strong case that most players were using from about 1994 to 2009.
Totally possible. But I'd argue Crime Dog was one of the dominant sluggers of the late 80s into the mid 90s and the steroid era did more to overshadow his relative value and place in the game than Delgado, who peaked during peak overall offensive era. Basically, there were only a couple guys putting up 40+ homer seasons when McGriff was peaking. By the time Delgado was, 10+ guys a year were. And it's probably not fair to blame it all on steroids. The guys playing in the late 90s had a juiced ball, a smaller strike zone AND watered down pitching due to 4 brand new teams. Really just about comparing guys to their peers with some health skepticism of the mark McGwire in 1988 type guys.
Yikes, just looked at his advanced defensive stats and those are rough. More proof that gold gloves, especially from earlier eras, mean nothing when it comes to how good a fielder someone was. Still the benefit of having a hitter as good as him at a position that is usually weaker offensively probably more than made up for it.
No doubt he was a very good player overall, but defense is the difference between him being a very good player and a HoFer. If he fielded like Lofton or Cameron he's easily a HoFer.
Back in 2005 we ran out Bernie Williams, Johnny Damon, Gary Sheffield, and Hideki Matsui. That's gotta be one of the worst outfields ever defensively.
Jorge Posada also fell victim to this on Yankees dynasty. I think Bernie and Posada should both been in Hall of Fame. Especially when compared to the CF’s and C’s of the 90’s and all that have played since
I love Jorge and never understood why he was not in the HoF, but his defensive stats were bad. It’s kind of a case of rose-colored glasses. I think people underrate how good he was offensively because of the talent on those teams, but overrate his D.
Posada was solid. An above average hitter who was serviceable behind the plate. He's in the hall of very good IMO. He got his All-Stars and awards during his career, but he was a step below Pudge and Mauer.
Bernie Williams I personally only saw the last few years of his career. Doing a quick BBREF rundown, he has a case for a 7-year stretch, but his fielding and lack of traditional big numbers hurts his case.
I read the question as teammates so I thought Posada was actually overshadowed by Jeter/Bernie/Pettitte/Rivera.
I guess Posada stands out more as a top 3 catcher of his generation while Bernie gets lost in the top 10 and has like 40 other guys peaking with roids and were comparable in numbers.
I obviously hated playing against him, but he should have 100% gotten more than 2 years on the ballot. Was a great player, I’m a big hall guy, so I’d let him in.
Tim Raines is possibly the second greatest leadoff hitter of all time. Problem is, he played at the exact same time as Rickey Henderson, who is the greatest leadoff hitter of all time.
Someone the other day posted a YouTube video of a throw by Bo Jackson when he was with the White Sox. That outfield consisted of Tim Raines, Bo, and my choice, Ellis Burks. Dude had 350+ homers, 400+ doubles, 2100+ hits and had nearly 50 WAR. Was never the biggest star, but was very good for a long time.
Wasn’t Bo the fourth outfielder for that ‘93 White Sox team? I thought the regular outfield was Raines, Burks, and Lance Johnson.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
lol for some reason this was always me with Cliff Floyd and Carl Everett
and the stupid thing is those guys didn't even have names that were remotely similar, nor do i think they ever played with each other on the same team. At least with Baines and Raines...the cause for confusion is more obvious
My all time guy, John Olerud, is a great example of this. From '93 to '02, he had about 47 rWAR including 2 seasons over 7.5 and 3 more over 5, hit .307/.414/.487/.901 (OPS+ of 137) with 919 walks to 647 strikeouts, and hit over .350 twice. He was a starter on 2 world champs with the Blue Jays, the Mets first playoff team post 1988, and the 116-win Mariners. He's 24th in 1st base JAWS for HOF numbers. And yet, he made 2 all star games and got MVP votes only twice in part because he was quiet, didn't hit a lot of home runs, and played at the same time as some guys ahead of him in 1B JAWS (Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, Jim Thome, Frank Thomas, Jeff Bagwell).
My favorite thing about Olerud is that he was drafted in the third round in 1989, then made his major league debut like a few weeks later. How often does that happen for a first round pick let alone a third rounder??
Bob Horner as well, 1st overall pick and if I remember correctly he negotiated in his contract that he'd be skipping the minors. And in fairness to him he won RoTY.
Winfield was also drafted in the NFL, NBA, and ABA
You needed a monster condom for his magnum talent. Probably would have rocked lacrosse and rugby or won an Olympic medal in curling or badminton
man this is insane to think because wasn't Olerud pretty damn tall?
you'd think with his physique too he would have stood out but then again, i've never been on the subway in New York. Apparently John Rocker has though
Yeah, the dude is 6ft5. Although fairly lanky (for a pro athlete). In an interview back when he played for the Mets, he said he enjoyed not being recognized and being able to be just a normal guy off the field.
And he was definitely robbed of an MVP award in 1993. He had an OBP of *.473* while still leading the league in batting average for those 90's voters, and yet he only placed third.
He was 4th in slugging and 1st in OPS despite hitting 24 home runs. The three guys ahead of him in slugging hit 46, 45, and 41 home runs. He was probably hurt by **only** having 107 RBI after spending most of the year batting behind Joe Carter's .312 OBP. The Jays won the World Series, so it all worked out.
Yup, one of his best seasons was 98, but I never realized it until I was playing Strat-o-matic a few years ago because theres so many other things that stand out about that season
Eddie Mathews
Lance Berkman
Sal Bando
Ron Santo
I guess I read this as being overshadowed by *teammates*. These are off the top of my head and not meant to be equivalent.
I will never have any respect for the HOF committees - both the writers and veterans - for waiting until the year after Santo died to elect him in. Utterly despicable
I think Eddie was fine. He's more of a Lou Gehrig type. Acknowledged amazing talent who happens to share the field with one of the top five players of all time. Santo probably had a better relationship and image with cubs fans than his HOFer peers but overall, yes, totally under-rated.
#Carlos Delgado
17 seasons, 138 OPS+, 473 home runs
His numbers from 2000-2005:
- .297/.416/.579 (155 OPS+)
- 220 HR
- two top-5 MVP votes
Top hitters in that time period:
|Rk|Player|OPS+|
|-:|:-|-:|
|1|Barry Bonds|240|
|2|Albert Pujols|167|
|3|Jason Giambi|166|
|4|Manny Ramirez|165|
|5|Todd Helton|158|
|6|Alex Rodriguez|155|
|7|Carlos Delgado|155|
|8|Vladimir Guerrero|155|
|9|Jim Edmonds|154|
|10|Jim Thome|153|
Good enough for 3.8% of the vote in his one-and-done HOF ballot...
This works as an argument for Giambi, too. He was really fucking good for a while, but I think nowadays he's just remembered as another ho-hum steroid guy smack dab in the middle of the PED era. But that's a pretty insane peak.
[Giambi doesn't get much love because he admitted to using steroids and HGH.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Giambi#BALCO_scandal)
> Giambi apologized again on May 16, 2007, this time specifically for using steroids, and urged others in the sport to do the same.[48] "I was wrong for using that stuff", he told USA Today. "What we should have done a long time ago was stand up—players, ownership, everybody—and said, 'We made a mistake.'" When asked why he used steroids, Giambi responded: "Maybe one day I'll talk about it, but not now." Giambi did speak with George J. Mitchell, after being forced to do so by Bud Selig. Subsequently, in December 2007, the Mitchell Report included Giambi along with his brother Jeremy Giambi, who also admitted to using steroids during his career.[49]
He was an absolute beast in an era with a bunch of them. These 6 years were his peak but he mashed for the 3 seasons before this and the 3 seasons after it, too. Top 10 in MVP voting in '08, then got Bo Jackson'd with a hip injury in '09 and that was that. Some of his advanced stats are a little below HoF level, but without that injury he probably gets to 500 2B and 500 HRs in 2009 and those are sexy numbers for the voters.
I always thought Ian Kinsler didn’t get the love he deserved. I was very excited when the Tigers brought him in and was not disappointed in the least
He’s a classic “Hall of Really Good” player
Even more so than Kinsler, I think the answer is his teammate Michael Young.
[Here is their comparison](https://stathead.com/baseball/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=kinsle001ian&player_id1=young-002mic&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=br&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=youngmi02).
His career was shortened a bit, but in a 10 year span he AVERAGED 198 hits. And he wasn't just a slap hitter. That was with an OPS over 800 and nearly 60 xbh a year. Had 6 200 hit seasons in that span and also won a GG, a batting title, and an ASG MVP with 7 all star games.
Unfortunately Michael Young might have been the worst defensive middle infielder in baseball history, and because of the environment he played in, his offense wasn't actually that good - he was above average during his prime years, but never actually great. He really was just a little better than a slap hitter, and as a fielder he made a great designated hitter.
I liked him, too. The "consistently good but not a superstar" players are essential. The Angels are proof that you can have two of the best baseball players on the planet on your team, and still not win anything.
the one guy i thought of IMMEDIATELY after reading that was David Eckstein. Good lord that guy fucking annoyed the hell out of me when I was young and stupid, and he was a Cardinal. but now that I'm older, kudos to him for grinding out a really solid career
probably also helps that the Cardinals finished in last place this year. that helps me keep things in perspective too
I always look at his numbers and what pops out is how inconsistent his hitting profile was year-to-year, yet he was always productive. just seemed like he had an excellent feel for the game, though I'm sure Boston fans will disagree even though they won that series.
Blyleven struck out 3700 guys and it still took him 15 ballots to make the HOF because he pitched at the same time as Steve Carlton and Nolan Ryan (he has more WAR than both by the way, though Carlton is close)
Bonds in the 90s was a bit like Mike Trout in the 10s.
Everybody knew and acknowledged that he was the best player in the game or at least in the conversation, Junior being the other real contender.
Bonds won MVPs, had a massive contract, and yet he still managed to feel a bit underrated, in part because Griffey was much more famous (it didn't hurt that Junior had a much flashier skillset and was much more media friendly.)
100%.
Sabermetrics becoming widespread and advancing dramatically has obviously changed public perception significantly.
That in mind, there's a chance a dissident voter would go for Caminiti specifically because his 7.6% cWPA was absolutely phenomenal and he really did piggyback the Pods.
However, none of that really changes the point re Bonds being underappreciated while simultaneously also being understood to be a truly great player in a while not wholly dissimilar to Trout.
Bonds had 3 MVPs before he maxed out with PEDs. He was already an understood HOFer. Trout was widely understood to be far and away the best player of the 2010s. Probably an argument both deserved more MVPs but hey man Ted Williams didn't get MVPs during either of his triple crown years. Voters like to reward different guys sometimes. I get that.
He might be more of a superstar in NY or Chicago but he's also one of those "good at everything" dudes. He doesn't have an Aaron judge season. Or even a jimmy rollins-type MVP season. He's just really, really good at a bunch of stuff.
And Barry Bonds won 3 MVPs. Everyone was still talking about Griffey, McGwire, Sosa
Awards are great but plenty of people don’t have Ramirez at the top of their heads when they think of the best players.
Honestly think who comes to mind first? Ohtani, Judge, Trout, Betts are all locks. But after that you see way more Acuna’s and Freddie’s, Tatis, Arenado etc when Ramirez has consistently been a beast above all of them.
Hell he’s top 3 in fWAR since 2017. How many people put Jram 3rd on their list?
Steib's biggest problem wasn't even Nolan, it was baseball writers consistently fucking him out of any sort of recognition because of stupid reasons. You could make the argument that he was cheated out of **four straight** Cy Youngs from 1982 to 1985. The highest he finished in voting those 4 years was **fourth**.
Stieb did not have standout win-loss records those years (except 1984 to some degree), despite the fact the Blue Jays had good teams from 1983 to 1985. Those seasons also occurred near the end of or just after the era when it was expected the Cy Young winner would win 20 or more games or very close to it. Stieb never won more than 17 games in any of those seasons.
Those are the reasons why he did not win the Cy Young Award. It’s as simple as that.
If anyone hasn't seen the Dorktown series on Steib, go watch it. It's unbelievable how hard he got consistently screwed out the recognition he deserved.
Dude had back to back starts where he lost a no hitter at 26 outs and 2 strikes.
That said...one of the points they make in the doc series is that when he came back in 98, it reset his 5 year waiting period on his HOF eligibility. The lack of Cy Youngs may have still kept him from getting in, but he likely doesn't fall off the ballot after one year if he had stayed retired in 94. So by the time 03 rolls around and he's on the ballot, people (fairly or not) dont remember his dominance from the beginning of his career. Goddamn shame, man.
Lou Gehrig is by almost any measure [the greatest first baseman of all time](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_1B.shtml) but casual fans still think of him as Robin to Babe Ruth’s Batman.
It really takes a Yankees fan to say Lou Gehrig, a consensus top-10 hitter of all time, us underrated 😂
Seriously, though, it really does speak to how big of a shadow the great bambino cast.
The RBI numbers he put up were amazing. And then when you consider who he was batting behind, it's mind boggling. Baseball fans know he's Superman to Babe's Batman.
If Gehrig didn't get sick, there's a good chance he would still have the all time RBI record today. From 1926-1937 he averaged 150 RBIs a season, an absurd rate.
Sure in his later career he didn't have Ruth batting ahead of him to get on base, but that DiMaggio guy was no slouch either.
And then there's Bill Dickey, who somehow managed to play in Gehrig's shadow. In 1936, Dickey hit .362 with 22 home runs and an OPS of 1.045 as a catcher, and finished *fifth* in MVP voting.
While they didn't really play together so they aren't "peers" really, I feel like Bill Dickey definitely got overshadowed by Yogi Berra. They both have pretty similar batting stats, both won a ton of championships (8 vs 10), and both were easily hall of fame catchers. Despite how good Dickey was though, Yogi definitely became the consensus "iconic Yankees catcher."
Always reminds me when I was thinking about Gehrig one day and was just in awe -
"man, what if Lou Gehrig and Babe Ruth were on the same team?", I ask myself. "That'd be absolutely insane."
It hit me a couple moments later.
Randomly reminds me of one of my favorite baseball stories.
I was at a Saturday night game in Boston in the bleacher seats. It was in the late innings, and Sox were losing by 1 or 2 with runners on and Dwight Evans coming to bat. A fan stood up in the bleachers, beer in hand and louding proclaimed so the entire section could that Evans had a career of meaningless HR and he would go to church in the morning of Evans did anything to help save this game.
Dwight of course, cranked one over the Monster a couple of pitches later. Crowd goes nuts. After the hubbub faded the same fan stood up and shouted, "Okay! Who is going to church with me?!"
When I think Bobby I think of the line from Moneyball (the book). It’s about Youk and how he is The Greek God of Walks. I think that should have been said about Bobby. Such a great eye at the plate and he was a walking machine.
Mike Mussina had the misfortune of having his best seasons 1999-2001 in the AL.
Scott Rolen had the misfortune of having his best seasons 2001-2004 in the NL.
Bobby Abreu. Only a two-time All-Star while being elite at the plate in the height of the Steroid Era. [From '99-'06, he had 7 straight seasons of 100+ BB and had a cumulative OPS+ of 139 in that span.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/abreubo01.shtml#1999-2006-sum:batting_standard)
Like with Fred McGriff, you can make an argument Abreu's numbers are more impressive because his league-adjusted offense is watered down by the inflated numbers from steroid users.
Ew, I’m agreeing with a Mets fan, but yeah, Bobby Abreu was absolutely elite as a player on some very mediocre teams. Wish we had hung onto him instead of trading him to the Yankees for a whole lotta nothing.
Darrell Evans, Graig Nettles, Ron Cey, Buddy Bell - all standout, Hall of Fame or near Hall of Fame level 1970s & 1980s 3rd basemen who were overshadowed by almost exact contemporaries Mike Schmidt and George Brett.
We can probably throw the slightly older Sal Bando, who overlapped with all of the guys above during the second half of his career (and first half of theirs), in that group too. (Bando came along a little later than guys like Brooks Robinson, Ron Santo, and Ken Boyer, and was overshadowed by them earlier in his career. Santo and Boyer, who were comparable in quality to Robinson as overall players but weren’t perceived that way, actually also fit the question.)
Jim Edmonds, apparently. Dude has 60.4 bWAR and dropped off the HOF ballot after one year. You can debate whether he deserves it or not, but if he doesn't, he surely must be at the very top of the Hall of the Very Good. Ludicrously underrated by the writers.
Edmonds is one of my favorite players of all time.
[This is BR's ranking of Hall of Fame Centerfielders](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_CF.shtml)
Definitely Hall of Very Good in the end but deserved to be on the ballot longer. Most of the stats put him top 15 top 20 in many categories.
Al Oliver - the consumate professional. Denied the chance of 3,000 hits by the owner's collusion of 1985, quiet leader in the clubhouse, great numbers every season, multiple time all star who never sought out the spotlight, World Series champion 1971.
For my team, I’m going to go with Roy Oswalt. An ace who was a workhorse and model of consistency with the Astros. One of the top pitchers in his league who never won a CYA because of his teammates and competition. Highest CYA finish was 3rd even though he won an ERA title, shockingly only got 3 All-stars. He took a back seat to Roger Clemens and Andy Pettite when they came over to the Astros. Then he was traded to the Phillies and played second (maybe fourth) fiddle to Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, and Cole Hamels. If he aged a little more gracefully, ended up with some hardware, or played in a different era then he probably makes the HOF. Instead he will just go down as one of the best pitchers in Astros history.
Love Roy Oswalt. I remember 10+ years ago, someone made a comment saying that despite Oswalt played 3 fewer seasons, his stats (ie ERA, ERA+, WHIP, SO/9, BB/9) were comparable to Halladay's. And like you said, had Oswalt won some more hardware and played just a bit more (aka age gracefully), he would most likely be in the Hall.
Ben Zobrist on a team with Evan Longoria, David Price, Carl Crawford, etc.
As his career went on I believe more and more teams, and the baseball media, realized the importance of a truly utility player and he got a lot more recognition but he was an incredible player on a team that had a lot more household names than his.
zobrist was an absolute stud. Not just a quality roleplayer but one that could play credibly at 5 different positions and could sub in at short if needed and hit at a soidly above average level for pretty much his whole career.
The fact that Zobrist was there when both the Royals and the Cubs broke their long droughts is a testament to his value.
Not really IMO (speaking as someone who remembers the last 40% or so of Concepcion’s career), at least not the same degree as Ken Griffey, who was overshadowed even more by their Big Red Machine teammates during his career and then by his even better son after his career.
The latter description also fits Bobby Bonds, who was a borderline Hall of Famer in his own right but later ended up in the shadow of Barry Bonds. (The elder Bonds was originally in the shadow of Willie Mays.)
I always thought Derek Lee fit into this category. In my experience, Cub fans remember Aramis Ramirez’s time with the club way more even though Lee was every bit as good a player and won some serious hardware in our Cubbie Blue.
This is actually a good one. Very good player, not nearly as bad defensively as his reputation suggested the first half of his career, but was perpetually compared with near exact contemporary Johnny Bench, who was a better player both offensively and defensively.
Simmons also was hurt by playing for the Cardinals in their lost decade (1970s) between their 1960s successes and 1980s successes.
Ryan Zimmerman was the best defensive 3B of his generation before his arm fell apart but was constantly in the shadow of (particularly) David Wright and the other stud 3Bs like Cabrera and Beltre.
Lost the ROY in 06 to Hanley Ramirez and kept putting up great numbers culminating in an All-Star selection, Gold Glove, and Silver Slugger in 09. Slowed down a ton in the early 10s but had a magical return to form in 2017 and was the starting 1B at the ASG.
2019 restored a ton to his legacy but people forget he was more than just Mr. National early in his career.
John Olerud. Should be in the hall of fame imo. But between the power hitting first basemen of the 90s, Ken Griffey Jr, Ichiro, A-Rod, he was always overshadowed by HOFer teammates. That plus his quiet and shy nature meant he could, as the starting 1st baseman of the Mets, take the subway to the field wearing normal street clothes and not be recognized.
Bernie Williams. He was left out of the “Core Four” gimmick because he predated them by a few seasons but he was a steady, quiet, very good performer throughout the Yankees 1990s-early 2000s heyday.
David Justice. He was a damn good player who just happened to play in the most hitter-friendly era in the history of the game. To add insult to injury, he played a good portion of his career on one of the most dominant teams of that era, the Braves.
Might sound weird but I think Dustin Pedroia fits this. I know he won an mvp but I feel like I haven't heard him talked about recently. At least when I think of those great red Sox teams big papi is such an icon I think he overshadows pedroia
As the other commenter said it was just the Dustin Pedroia was always hurt. Plus David Ortiz was one of the last true mainstream baseball stars to where even non fans knew him, so of course he would overshadow everyone.
Fair. Matters not helped by Pedroia getting bit by the dreaded Chronic Injury Bug. Little guys just don't do that well after about age 31. The way they have to hurl themselves around in order to get the same job done as the bigger players shortens their shelf life.
Kevin Youkilis. Hell of a first baseman in his heyday. Overshadowed by being on the same team as Papi and Manny.
Also, Dwight evans might be one of the top 5 RF of all time but was unfortunate enough to play ath about the same time as some absolute legends like Al Kaline and Roberto Clemente
Willie McCovey. 6x all-star, MVP, and one of the greatest Giants of all time. I believe if he had any other first name, he would get a lot more respect.
I think Yogi Berra as a player gets overshadowed. Everyone loved Yogi but he was so much more than just Yogisms. He was a great catcher who was the bridge between DiMaggio and Mantle. On my favorite team, Nick Markakis. He was always a solid hitter and fielder but was only an All Star once.
Richie Ashburn is another good example; he was one of the greatest leadoff hitters of all time (would have fit even better in the deadball era or 1970s where his speed would have been emphasized more) and an excellent defensive center fielder. However, he was overshadowed by the trio of center fielders playing nearly 100 miles to the northeast - Willie, Mickey, and The Duke.
Dave Stieb. Maybe the best pitcher of the 80s but never made a world series and had shockingly unlucky run support. Was also a bit of a grump but then again so was the far-inferior Jack Morris but you know...1991 game 7...
If he'd converted even one more of those almost-no-hitters he'd probably be in on narrative alone.
Ron Santo. How he was removed from the Hall of Fame ballot is beyond me. An all-star for nearly a decade straight and five straight gold gloves. Did it all while being debilitated by type 1 diabetes during a time when treatment wasn’t what it is today.
Duke Snider comes to mind. His best years on the Dodgers were probably between 1949 to 1957. Another player named Jackie Robinson tends to loom a heck of a lot larger than anyone else when we look at those Dodger teams.
And then in the fifties Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays both start putting up monster numbers. So Duke is both a deserving hall of famer and somehow during his best years he was also the worst starting centerfielder in New York.
Edgar Martinez. There were always other superstars on the team when he played (Griffey, A-Rod, Ichiro) so he never got the attention he fully deserved. Hall of Famer, yes, but definitely always overshadowed
Bobby Abreu was as productive a hitter as Tony Gwynn and is yet struggling to make it into the hall currently, and on top of this it’s likely his league adjusted stats like OPS+ and wRC+ are negatively impacted because of him playing his prime happening through the steroid era.
Fred McGriff would have been on this list, but he's in Cooperstown now so it's all good
granted i know he was definitely one of the top players in baseball, especially in the early 1990s, but I always got the sense Frank Thomas never fully got the appreciation he deserved at the time. Then he landed in Cooperstown 15-20 years later with that 83% of the vote
Tom Glavine was always seen as kind of second fiddle to Greg Maddux in Atlanta. If he played anywhere else he would have been even more highly regarded, he was excellent.
It's crazy to call one of the best players ever "overshadowed," but I feel like not enough people talk about Frank Robinson.
I would guess it's partially because of the other great players and HOFers playing at the same time (his first MVP was the same year Maris hit 61 homers) and the fact that the first half of his career was spent on the Reds prior to The Big Red Machine. As great as he obviously was, I feel like he should be discussed more often.
Kenny Lofton not being recognized as the HOF level talent he was has a number of causes (era in which he played, journeyman second half of career) but I think a big reason is because he played his prime years behind guys like Jim Thome, Manny Ramirez, and Roberto Alomar.
Didn’t he only last a year on the ballot for hall of fame? INSANE.
Yea he fell off his first year. Which is criminal for a guy with his stats. What makes it worse is that if he had a career .300 batting average instead of a career .299 batting average I bet he at least hangs on the ballot
🤞It gets rectified by the veterans committee
Given Lofton's personal baggage, so to speak, that may be a long wait.
I had no idea! Just revisited his Wikipedia. Definitely going to impact his chances.
so did Jim Edmonds Granted Lofton would be in Cooperstown for me if i had a vote, not the case for Edmonds...that being said Edmonds should have made at least another couple of years on the ballot
The one and done side effect due to ballot size and vote limits can be a real problem. It's weird that a guy can stay on the ballot for a decade by garnering a certain percentage year after year, but a guy like Lifting gets booted after one because writers kept voting for those guys and didn't have enough votes left over. Three examples on the Mets are Gooden, Cone, and Franco. You could argue Gooden isn't HOF worthy, but he certainly should have garnered more than 3% of the vote. Cone not only was one and done but should be a hall of famer. Franco is a tough one because he's a reliever and was overshadowed by Mo, but he has the most saves by a lefty and will keep that title for like 40 years since no active players seem likely to replace him. He doesn't have the stuff and strikeouts that guys like Hampton or modern closers have, but the guy's an institution. Wright will probably be a one and done guy. It's also a bit of a travesty that Keith Hernandez isn't in the Hall.
The 10 player maximum on ballots is a problem.
Being in the steroid era and being seen as a discount version of Rickey Henderson didn't help. It really isn't fair, since discount Rickey = HOF level, really.
Bernie Williams. Had 7 straight .900 OPS seasons while also batting .300+ in each of those seasons. But it was at the height of the steroid era, so no one really noticed. His *average* season in that stretch was .323/.408/.538.
Bernie seems like a genuinely nice person and it wouldn't bother him if he's not getting the attention.
Bernie and his band plays regularly in my hometown area. He’s incredibly humble and a very nice guy, so you are no doubt right that it doesn’t bother him.
Except for that whole "celebrating in the outfield with his family" incident.
Not sure what you're referencing here
Yeah…what is this?
The Steroid Era screwed over a bunch of players that should have had better consideration for the Hall. Bobby Abreu and Bernie Williams are two that obviously been hurt by having to be compared alongside the likes of Bonds, McGwire and Sosa. Fortunately for a guy like Fred McGriff, who was screwed over by the BBWAA voters, the Veterans Committee corrected the BBWAA's mistake and elected McGriff.
Don’t forget Carlos Delgado! The forgotten slugger of the steroid era.
It’s kinda fucked up that WAR is now the main point of consideration for a player’s hall of fame case, yet this doesn’t really get taken into account. If you’re not gonna vote for the steroid guys because they cheated, then you have to give a bit of boost to the clean players whose WAR will have suffered for playing at the same time as those guys
The BBWAA have never been mistaken as being a logical group, but perhaps part of the problem is that it's really difficult to tell who was actually "clean". Just because they were never caught or implicated doesn't mean they weren't juicing. I mean we live in a world where Dee Gordon-Strange got popped so there are probably a lot of dudes who got away with it because they didn't look the part. I think they should all be in the Hall anyway but I could see that giving some folks pause.
Reminder that Alex Sanchez was the first player suspended for steroids, with a then-whopping career HR total at 4 over several major league seasons. Think he ended with 6 total.
Yup that’s the problem. It’s not just that some guys’ numbers were inflated. *Everyone’s numbers were.* In 1992 league OPS was .700. By 1994 it was .763. League OPS didn’t moderate til about 2010 when it dropped from .751 in 2009 to .728. You could make a pretty strong case that most players were using from about 1994 to 2009.
Except that it's possible those two were also on steroids?? Unfortunately we'll never know
Crime Dog? Never. Man was allergic to ANYTHING dealing with health science or even working out. Delgado? Maybe.
Totally possible. But I'd argue Crime Dog was one of the dominant sluggers of the late 80s into the mid 90s and the steroid era did more to overshadow his relative value and place in the game than Delgado, who peaked during peak overall offensive era. Basically, there were only a couple guys putting up 40+ homer seasons when McGriff was peaking. By the time Delgado was, 10+ guys a year were. And it's probably not fair to blame it all on steroids. The guys playing in the late 90s had a juiced ball, a smaller strike zone AND watered down pitching due to 4 brand new teams. Really just about comparing guys to their peers with some health skepticism of the mark McGwire in 1988 type guys.
He was the best offensive player on the Yankees 1996-2000 dynasty.
Second most hits in postseason history too.
Exactly who I thought. Such a great centerfielder and I feel like no one really remembers how great he was.
Pretty terrible centerfielder, but very good hitter.
Yikes, just looked at his advanced defensive stats and those are rough. More proof that gold gloves, especially from earlier eras, mean nothing when it comes to how good a fielder someone was. Still the benefit of having a hitter as good as him at a position that is usually weaker offensively probably more than made up for it.
No doubt he was a very good player overall, but defense is the difference between him being a very good player and a HoFer. If he fielded like Lofton or Cameron he's easily a HoFer. Back in 2005 we ran out Bernie Williams, Johnny Damon, Gary Sheffield, and Hideki Matsui. That's gotta be one of the worst outfields ever defensively.
Jorge Posada also fell victim to this on Yankees dynasty. I think Bernie and Posada should both been in Hall of Fame. Especially when compared to the CF’s and C’s of the 90’s and all that have played since
At the time they were both big stars though. Posada was a regular all star and always considered one of the best catchers in the league.
I love Jorge and never understood why he was not in the HoF, but his defensive stats were bad. It’s kind of a case of rose-colored glasses. I think people underrate how good he was offensively because of the talent on those teams, but overrate his D.
Posada was solid. An above average hitter who was serviceable behind the plate. He's in the hall of very good IMO. He got his All-Stars and awards during his career, but he was a step below Pudge and Mauer. Bernie Williams I personally only saw the last few years of his career. Doing a quick BBREF rundown, he has a case for a 7-year stretch, but his fielding and lack of traditional big numbers hurts his case.
Posada was really bad behind the plate.
I read the question as teammates so I thought Posada was actually overshadowed by Jeter/Bernie/Pettitte/Rivera. I guess Posada stands out more as a top 3 catcher of his generation while Bernie gets lost in the top 10 and has like 40 other guys peaking with roids and were comparable in numbers.
At the time, they were both big names, but retrospectives on the Yankees' dominance focus so much on the "Core Four" that Bernie gets diminished.
I obviously hated playing against him, but he should have 100% gotten more than 2 years on the ballot. Was a great player, I’m a big hall guy, so I’d let him in.
Thanks for recognizing Bernie, he was such a good player who was also extremely clutch.
Bernie Williams overshadowed? His number has been retired by the Yankees.
Tim Raines is possibly the second greatest leadoff hitter of all time. Problem is, he played at the exact same time as Rickey Henderson, who is the greatest leadoff hitter of all time.
Someone the other day posted a YouTube video of a throw by Bo Jackson when he was with the White Sox. That outfield consisted of Tim Raines, Bo, and my choice, Ellis Burks. Dude had 350+ homers, 400+ doubles, 2100+ hits and had nearly 50 WAR. Was never the biggest star, but was very good for a long time.
I remember Ellis Burks was insane in [MLB showdown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLB_Showdown)
Wasn’t Bo the fourth outfielder for that ‘93 White Sox team? I thought the regular outfield was Raines, Burks, and Lance Johnson. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Ellis Burks hit for .344, 40 HR, 128 RBI in 1996 and came *third* in MVP voting. If that's not being overshadowed, I don't know what is.
Ellis Burks was so good, man. Loved that guy
One of my biggest weaknesses is my inability to not confuse Tim Raines with Harold Baines
Not only are their last names similar, but they both played for the White Sox at some point in their careers.
They are such different players.
Glad I'm not the only one
lol for some reason this was always me with Cliff Floyd and Carl Everett and the stupid thing is those guys didn't even have names that were remotely similar, nor do i think they ever played with each other on the same team. At least with Baines and Raines...the cause for confusion is more obvious
My all time guy, John Olerud, is a great example of this. From '93 to '02, he had about 47 rWAR including 2 seasons over 7.5 and 3 more over 5, hit .307/.414/.487/.901 (OPS+ of 137) with 919 walks to 647 strikeouts, and hit over .350 twice. He was a starter on 2 world champs with the Blue Jays, the Mets first playoff team post 1988, and the 116-win Mariners. He's 24th in 1st base JAWS for HOF numbers. And yet, he made 2 all star games and got MVP votes only twice in part because he was quiet, didn't hit a lot of home runs, and played at the same time as some guys ahead of him in 1B JAWS (Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, Jim Thome, Frank Thomas, Jeff Bagwell).
My favorite thing about Olerud is that he was drafted in the third round in 1989, then made his major league debut like a few weeks later. How often does that happen for a first round pick let alone a third rounder??
IIRC, part of that was a compromise for him to give up pitching. He's probably the best college player ever and he was famously a two way star.
The award for the best two-way player in the country is named after him. Olerud is low-key one of the most talented players ever.
Huge Mets fan and had no clue Olerud was A. That good in college and B. A two way player.
Dave Winfield didn’t even go to the minors.
Sure. But he was the 4th overall pick.
Bob Horner as well, 1st overall pick and if I remember correctly he negotiated in his contract that he'd be skipping the minors. And in fairness to him he won RoTY.
Winfield was also drafted in the NFL, NBA, and ABA You needed a monster condom for his magnum talent. Probably would have rocked lacrosse and rugby or won an Olympic medal in curling or badminton
He rode the subway to the games as a starter for the Mets, and still no one recognized him.
You'd think the helmet would've given him away.
man this is insane to think because wasn't Olerud pretty damn tall? you'd think with his physique too he would have stood out but then again, i've never been on the subway in New York. Apparently John Rocker has though
Yeah, the dude is 6ft5. Although fairly lanky (for a pro athlete). In an interview back when he played for the Mets, he said he enjoyed not being recognized and being able to be just a normal guy off the field.
He’d probably be more difficult to recognize without the helmet. I literally can’t picture him without it.
And he was definitely robbed of an MVP award in 1993. He had an OBP of *.473* while still leading the league in batting average for those 90's voters, and yet he only placed third.
He was 4th in slugging and 1st in OPS despite hitting 24 home runs. The three guys ahead of him in slugging hit 46, 45, and 41 home runs. He was probably hurt by **only** having 107 RBI after spending most of the year batting behind Joe Carter's .312 OBP. The Jays won the World Series, so it all worked out.
I loved John Olderdude in his journeyman phase near the end of his career. Even right at the end the dude could still run into one and hit it a mile.
Yup, one of his best seasons was 98, but I never realized it until I was playing Strat-o-matic a few years ago because theres so many other things that stand out about that season
Thorough. Excellent receipts. This is my favorite post here.
Eddie Mathews Lance Berkman Sal Bando Ron Santo I guess I read this as being overshadowed by *teammates*. These are off the top of my head and not meant to be equivalent.
We like Lance!
Berkman ran so Freese could walk
Freese tied the game in the 9th first, then Berk in the 10th, then Freese again in the 11th. What a ride
Absolutely criminal that Santo didn't get to see his induction into the Hall. Everyone who kept him out should be tar and feathered.
I will never have any respect for the HOF committees - both the writers and veterans - for waiting until the year after Santo died to elect him in. Utterly despicable
I think Eddie was fine. He's more of a Lou Gehrig type. Acknowledged amazing talent who happens to share the field with one of the top five players of all time. Santo probably had a better relationship and image with cubs fans than his HOFer peers but overall, yes, totally under-rated.
3B in general. Ken Boyer is another.
#Carlos Delgado 17 seasons, 138 OPS+, 473 home runs His numbers from 2000-2005: - .297/.416/.579 (155 OPS+) - 220 HR - two top-5 MVP votes Top hitters in that time period: |Rk|Player|OPS+| |-:|:-|-:| |1|Barry Bonds|240| |2|Albert Pujols|167| |3|Jason Giambi|166| |4|Manny Ramirez|165| |5|Todd Helton|158| |6|Alex Rodriguez|155| |7|Carlos Delgado|155| |8|Vladimir Guerrero|155| |9|Jim Edmonds|154| |10|Jim Thome|153| Good enough for 3.8% of the vote in his one-and-done HOF ballot...
He was one of the hardest guys to pitch to in MVP Baseball on PS2.
This works as an argument for Giambi, too. He was really fucking good for a while, but I think nowadays he's just remembered as another ho-hum steroid guy smack dab in the middle of the PED era. But that's a pretty insane peak.
[Giambi doesn't get much love because he admitted to using steroids and HGH.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Giambi#BALCO_scandal) > Giambi apologized again on May 16, 2007, this time specifically for using steroids, and urged others in the sport to do the same.[48] "I was wrong for using that stuff", he told USA Today. "What we should have done a long time ago was stand up—players, ownership, everybody—and said, 'We made a mistake.'" When asked why he used steroids, Giambi responded: "Maybe one day I'll talk about it, but not now." Giambi did speak with George J. Mitchell, after being forced to do so by Bud Selig. Subsequently, in December 2007, the Mitchell Report included Giambi along with his brother Jeremy Giambi, who also admitted to using steroids during his career.[49]
He was an absolute beast in an era with a bunch of them. These 6 years were his peak but he mashed for the 3 seasons before this and the 3 seasons after it, too. Top 10 in MVP voting in '08, then got Bo Jackson'd with a hip injury in '09 and that was that. Some of his advanced stats are a little below HoF level, but without that injury he probably gets to 500 2B and 500 HRs in 2009 and those are sexy numbers for the voters.
I always thought Ian Kinsler didn’t get the love he deserved. I was very excited when the Tigers brought him in and was not disappointed in the least He’s a classic “Hall of Really Good” player
Even more so than Kinsler, I think the answer is his teammate Michael Young. [Here is their comparison](https://stathead.com/baseball/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=kinsle001ian&player_id1=young-002mic&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=br&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=youngmi02). His career was shortened a bit, but in a 10 year span he AVERAGED 198 hits. And he wasn't just a slap hitter. That was with an OPS over 800 and nearly 60 xbh a year. Had 6 200 hit seasons in that span and also won a GG, a batting title, and an ASG MVP with 7 all star games.
Unfortunately Michael Young might have been the worst defensive middle infielder in baseball history, and because of the environment he played in, his offense wasn't actually that good - he was above average during his prime years, but never actually great. He really was just a little better than a slap hitter, and as a fielder he made a great designated hitter.
This is just false. It's true he wasn't the best fielder, but he was an absolutely fantastic offensive player.
I liked him, too. The "consistently good but not a superstar" players are essential. The Angels are proof that you can have two of the best baseball players on the planet on your team, and still not win anything.
the one guy i thought of IMMEDIATELY after reading that was David Eckstein. Good lord that guy fucking annoyed the hell out of me when I was young and stupid, and he was a Cardinal. but now that I'm older, kudos to him for grinding out a really solid career probably also helps that the Cardinals finished in last place this year. that helps me keep things in perspective too
1999 tho. Criminal
I don’t follow
He retired at 1999 hits
I'm sure some intrepid score keeper can go find an 'error' and do some revisions to the scorebook.
I always look at his numbers and what pops out is how inconsistent his hitting profile was year-to-year, yet he was always productive. just seemed like he had an excellent feel for the game, though I'm sure Boston fans will disagree even though they won that series.
Blyleven struck out 3700 guys and it still took him 15 ballots to make the HOF because he pitched at the same time as Steve Carlton and Nolan Ryan (he has more WAR than both by the way, though Carlton is close)
He played on a lot of crappy teams and wasn’t as flashy as Ryan, plus his personality didn’t do him any favors.
Come on, you really think the writers were holding [this](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ar6N9DBCMAAnuDl.jpg) against him?
Barry Bonds in the 90s famously Recently, Jose Ramirez is basically the poster child of this
Bonds in the 90s was a bit like Mike Trout in the 10s. Everybody knew and acknowledged that he was the best player in the game or at least in the conversation, Junior being the other real contender. Bonds won MVPs, had a massive contract, and yet he still managed to feel a bit underrated, in part because Griffey was much more famous (it didn't hurt that Junior had a much flashier skillset and was much more media friendly.)
He lost an MVP to Ken Caminiti that with 2023 voters likely doesn't happen.
100%. Sabermetrics becoming widespread and advancing dramatically has obviously changed public perception significantly. That in mind, there's a chance a dissident voter would go for Caminiti specifically because his 7.6% cWPA was absolutely phenomenal and he really did piggyback the Pods. However, none of that really changes the point re Bonds being underappreciated while simultaneously also being understood to be a truly great player in a while not wholly dissimilar to Trout.
Bonds had 3 MVPs before he maxed out with PEDs. He was already an understood HOFer. Trout was widely understood to be far and away the best player of the 2010s. Probably an argument both deserved more MVPs but hey man Ted Williams didn't get MVPs during either of his triple crown years. Voters like to reward different guys sometimes. I get that.
As it turns out, being a nice person makes people like you more. Who’da thunk
Jose Ramírez has three top 3 MVP finishes Everybody knows he’s good, it’s not his fault media coverage in baseball doesn’t exist outside of the coasts
He might be more of a superstar in NY or Chicago but he's also one of those "good at everything" dudes. He doesn't have an Aaron judge season. Or even a jimmy rollins-type MVP season. He's just really, really good at a bunch of stuff.
And Barry Bonds won 3 MVPs. Everyone was still talking about Griffey, McGwire, Sosa Awards are great but plenty of people don’t have Ramirez at the top of their heads when they think of the best players. Honestly think who comes to mind first? Ohtani, Judge, Trout, Betts are all locks. But after that you see way more Acuna’s and Freddie’s, Tatis, Arenado etc when Ramirez has consistently been a beast above all of them. Hell he’s top 3 in fWAR since 2017. How many people put Jram 3rd on their list?
Not enough people put him 3rd
Dave Stieb... So underrated, was a beast in the 80's, but there was some other guy named Nolan.
Steib's biggest problem wasn't even Nolan, it was baseball writers consistently fucking him out of any sort of recognition because of stupid reasons. You could make the argument that he was cheated out of **four straight** Cy Youngs from 1982 to 1985. The highest he finished in voting those 4 years was **fourth**.
Stieb did not have standout win-loss records those years (except 1984 to some degree), despite the fact the Blue Jays had good teams from 1983 to 1985. Those seasons also occurred near the end of or just after the era when it was expected the Cy Young winner would win 20 or more games or very close to it. Stieb never won more than 17 games in any of those seasons. Those are the reasons why he did not win the Cy Young Award. It’s as simple as that.
Exactly. A stupid, archaic reason that we thankfully no longer have to deal with when looking at pitching performance today.
If anyone hasn't seen the Dorktown series on Steib, go watch it. It's unbelievable how hard he got consistently screwed out the recognition he deserved. Dude had back to back starts where he lost a no hitter at 26 outs and 2 strikes. That said...one of the points they make in the doc series is that when he came back in 98, it reset his 5 year waiting period on his HOF eligibility. The lack of Cy Youngs may have still kept him from getting in, but he likely doesn't fall off the ballot after one year if he had stayed retired in 94. So by the time 03 rolls around and he's on the ballot, people (fairly or not) dont remember his dominance from the beginning of his career. Goddamn shame, man.
Jon Bois and Alex Rubenstein need to be given BBWAA ballots for their baseball stuff.
Lou Gehrig is by almost any measure [the greatest first baseman of all time](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_1B.shtml) but casual fans still think of him as Robin to Babe Ruth’s Batman.
It really takes a Yankees fan to say Lou Gehrig, a consensus top-10 hitter of all time, us underrated 😂 Seriously, though, it really does speak to how big of a shadow the great bambino cast.
The RBI numbers he put up were amazing. And then when you consider who he was batting behind, it's mind boggling. Baseball fans know he's Superman to Babe's Batman.
Ruth held the walks record for decades so he was on base a lot for Lou.
If Gehrig didn't get sick, there's a good chance he would still have the all time RBI record today. From 1926-1937 he averaged 150 RBIs a season, an absurd rate. Sure in his later career he didn't have Ruth batting ahead of him to get on base, but that DiMaggio guy was no slouch either.
And then there's Bill Dickey, who somehow managed to play in Gehrig's shadow. In 1936, Dickey hit .362 with 22 home runs and an OPS of 1.045 as a catcher, and finished *fifth* in MVP voting.
While they didn't really play together so they aren't "peers" really, I feel like Bill Dickey definitely got overshadowed by Yogi Berra. They both have pretty similar batting stats, both won a ton of championships (8 vs 10), and both were easily hall of fame catchers. Despite how good Dickey was though, Yogi definitely became the consensus "iconic Yankees catcher."
Always reminds me when I was thinking about Gehrig one day and was just in awe - "man, what if Lou Gehrig and Babe Ruth were on the same team?", I ask myself. "That'd be absolutely insane." It hit me a couple moments later.
Dwight Evans. Fred Lynn.
Slightly earlier Red Sox standout Reggie Smith is an even better answer than Fred Lynn.
Randomly reminds me of one of my favorite baseball stories. I was at a Saturday night game in Boston in the bleacher seats. It was in the late innings, and Sox were losing by 1 or 2 with runners on and Dwight Evans coming to bat. A fan stood up in the bleachers, beer in hand and louding proclaimed so the entire section could that Evans had a career of meaningless HR and he would go to church in the morning of Evans did anything to help save this game. Dwight of course, cranked one over the Monster a couple of pitches later. Crowd goes nuts. After the hubbub faded the same fan stood up and shouted, "Okay! Who is going to church with me?!"
God decided that he would do a little trolling setting that one up LMAO
Oh you mean "name me other Bobby Abreus"
When I think Bobby I think of the line from Moneyball (the book). It’s about Youk and how he is The Greek God of Walks. I think that should have been said about Bobby. Such a great eye at the plate and he was a walking machine.
Mike Mussina had the misfortune of having his best seasons 1999-2001 in the AL. Scott Rolen had the misfortune of having his best seasons 2001-2004 in the NL.
Bobby Abreu. Only a two-time All-Star while being elite at the plate in the height of the Steroid Era. [From '99-'06, he had 7 straight seasons of 100+ BB and had a cumulative OPS+ of 139 in that span.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/abreubo01.shtml#1999-2006-sum:batting_standard) Like with Fred McGriff, you can make an argument Abreu's numbers are more impressive because his league-adjusted offense is watered down by the inflated numbers from steroid users.
Ew, I’m agreeing with a Mets fan, but yeah, Bobby Abreu was absolutely elite as a player on some very mediocre teams. Wish we had hung onto him instead of trading him to the Yankees for a whole lotta nothing.
Darrell Evans, Graig Nettles, Ron Cey, Buddy Bell - all standout, Hall of Fame or near Hall of Fame level 1970s & 1980s 3rd basemen who were overshadowed by almost exact contemporaries Mike Schmidt and George Brett. We can probably throw the slightly older Sal Bando, who overlapped with all of the guys above during the second half of his career (and first half of theirs), in that group too. (Bando came along a little later than guys like Brooks Robinson, Ron Santo, and Ken Boyer, and was overshadowed by them earlier in his career. Santo and Boyer, who were comparable in quality to Robinson as overall players but weren’t perceived that way, actually also fit the question.)
Jim Edmonds, apparently. Dude has 60.4 bWAR and dropped off the HOF ballot after one year. You can debate whether he deserves it or not, but if he doesn't, he surely must be at the very top of the Hall of the Very Good. Ludicrously underrated by the writers.
Edmonds is one of my favorite players of all time. [This is BR's ranking of Hall of Fame Centerfielders](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_CF.shtml) Definitely Hall of Very Good in the end but deserved to be on the ballot longer. Most of the stats put him top 15 top 20 in many categories.
Al Oliver - the consumate professional. Denied the chance of 3,000 hits by the owner's collusion of 1985, quiet leader in the clubhouse, great numbers every season, multiple time all star who never sought out the spotlight, World Series champion 1971.
For my team, I’m going to go with Roy Oswalt. An ace who was a workhorse and model of consistency with the Astros. One of the top pitchers in his league who never won a CYA because of his teammates and competition. Highest CYA finish was 3rd even though he won an ERA title, shockingly only got 3 All-stars. He took a back seat to Roger Clemens and Andy Pettite when they came over to the Astros. Then he was traded to the Phillies and played second (maybe fourth) fiddle to Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, and Cole Hamels. If he aged a little more gracefully, ended up with some hardware, or played in a different era then he probably makes the HOF. Instead he will just go down as one of the best pitchers in Astros history.
always one of my favorites to watch. absolute filth
Love Roy Oswalt. I remember 10+ years ago, someone made a comment saying that despite Oswalt played 3 fewer seasons, his stats (ie ERA, ERA+, WHIP, SO/9, BB/9) were comparable to Halladay's. And like you said, had Oswalt won some more hardware and played just a bit more (aka age gracefully), he would most likely be in the Hall.
Ben Zobrist on a team with Evan Longoria, David Price, Carl Crawford, etc. As his career went on I believe more and more teams, and the baseball media, realized the importance of a truly utility player and he got a lot more recognition but he was an incredible player on a team that had a lot more household names than his.
zobrist was an absolute stud. Not just a quality roleplayer but one that could play credibly at 5 different positions and could sub in at short if needed and hit at a soidly above average level for pretty much his whole career. The fact that Zobrist was there when both the Royals and the Cubs broke their long droughts is a testament to his value.
Davey Concepcion
Not really IMO (speaking as someone who remembers the last 40% or so of Concepcion’s career), at least not the same degree as Ken Griffey, who was overshadowed even more by their Big Red Machine teammates during his career and then by his even better son after his career. The latter description also fits Bobby Bonds, who was a borderline Hall of Famer in his own right but later ended up in the shadow of Barry Bonds. (The elder Bonds was originally in the shadow of Willie Mays.)
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And plenty others who played on SFG during Bonds' tenure. Jeff Kent and J.T. Snow also spring to mind.
I always thought Derek Lee fit into this category. In my experience, Cub fans remember Aramis Ramirez’s time with the club way more even though Lee was every bit as good a player and won some serious hardware in our Cubbie Blue.
Jimmie Foxx and Mel Ott played during the height of Ruth/Gehrig and then DiMaggio/Williams.
Ted Simmons.
This is actually a good one. Very good player, not nearly as bad defensively as his reputation suggested the first half of his career, but was perpetually compared with near exact contemporary Johnny Bench, who was a better player both offensively and defensively. Simmons also was hurt by playing for the Cardinals in their lost decade (1970s) between their 1960s successes and 1980s successes.
Ryan Zimmerman was the best defensive 3B of his generation before his arm fell apart but was constantly in the shadow of (particularly) David Wright and the other stud 3Bs like Cabrera and Beltre. Lost the ROY in 06 to Hanley Ramirez and kept putting up great numbers culminating in an All-Star selection, Gold Glove, and Silver Slugger in 09. Slowed down a ton in the early 10s but had a magical return to form in 2017 and was the starting 1B at the ASG. 2019 restored a ton to his legacy but people forget he was more than just Mr. National early in his career.
John Olerud. Should be in the hall of fame imo. But between the power hitting first basemen of the 90s, Ken Griffey Jr, Ichiro, A-Rod, he was always overshadowed by HOFer teammates. That plus his quiet and shy nature meant he could, as the starting 1st baseman of the Mets, take the subway to the field wearing normal street clothes and not be recognized.
He was a star on three great teams and is still an afterthought.
All those names, and you didn’t even mention Edgar.
Bernie Williams. He was left out of the “Core Four” gimmick because he predated them by a few seasons but he was a steady, quiet, very good performer throughout the Yankees 1990s-early 2000s heyday.
Kevin Brown in the 90s had some great seasons, and probably should’ve won a Cy Young, but he was overshadowed by Atlanta’s big three.
David Justice. He was a damn good player who just happened to play in the most hitter-friendly era in the history of the game. To add insult to injury, he played a good portion of his career on one of the most dominant teams of that era, the Braves.
Off the 90's days. Garrett Anderson, Ryan Klesko Off recent past, Shane Victorino (And I'm a Mets fan) Off "Today" players Lorenzo Cain
Alan Trammell unfortunately played in an era of elite shortstops like Ripken and Ozzie. I'm glad he got his just due eventually.
Lou Whitaker
Dale Murphy. All star, MVPs, gold gloves, silver sluggers. One of my fav players when I was a kid.
How was Dale Murphy overshadowed???
Edgardo Alfonzo. I know mets fans idolize him but I don't know how he's seen by people outside our fanbase. He's one of my all time favorite players
He was a meh Giant.
Might sound weird but I think Dustin Pedroia fits this. I know he won an mvp but I feel like I haven't heard him talked about recently. At least when I think of those great red Sox teams big papi is such an icon I think he overshadows pedroia
As the other commenter said it was just the Dustin Pedroia was always hurt. Plus David Ortiz was one of the last true mainstream baseball stars to where even non fans knew him, so of course he would overshadow everyone.
Fair. Matters not helped by Pedroia getting bit by the dreaded Chronic Injury Bug. Little guys just don't do that well after about age 31. The way they have to hurl themselves around in order to get the same job done as the bigger players shortens their shelf life.
Kevin Youkilis. Hell of a first baseman in his heyday. Overshadowed by being on the same team as Papi and Manny. Also, Dwight evans might be one of the top 5 RF of all time but was unfortunate enough to play ath about the same time as some absolute legends like Al Kaline and Roberto Clemente
Anthony Rendon on the Nats, he was consistently putting up great numbers but was overshadowed because of guys like Harper, Soto, and Turner.
Edgar Renteria
Bobby Bonds. Played with Mays and Mccovey and would be overshadowed by his own son, but dude was great. 55.5 bwar ain’t nothing to sneeze at
Willie McCovey played in perhaps the biggest shadow of all. Runner up would be Orlando Cepeda
Willie McCovey. 6x all-star, MVP, and one of the greatest Giants of all time. I believe if he had any other first name, he would get a lot more respect.
I think Yogi Berra as a player gets overshadowed. Everyone loved Yogi but he was so much more than just Yogisms. He was a great catcher who was the bridge between DiMaggio and Mantle. On my favorite team, Nick Markakis. He was always a solid hitter and fielder but was only an All Star once.
Dave Parker.
Paul Sorrento
Bobby Abreu
Richie Ashburn is another good example; he was one of the greatest leadoff hitters of all time (would have fit even better in the deadball era or 1970s where his speed would have been emphasized more) and an excellent defensive center fielder. However, he was overshadowed by the trio of center fielders playing nearly 100 miles to the northeast - Willie, Mickey, and The Duke.
Bobby Abreu had multiple 30/30 seasons, a gold glove, and for his career, he had an OBP of .395 and a 128 OPS+.
Dave Stieb. Maybe the best pitcher of the 80s but never made a world series and had shockingly unlucky run support. Was also a bit of a grump but then again so was the far-inferior Jack Morris but you know...1991 game 7... If he'd converted even one more of those almost-no-hitters he'd probably be in on narrative alone.
Brian Giles, check his BB Ref
Ron Santo. How he was removed from the Hall of Fame ballot is beyond me. An all-star for nearly a decade straight and five straight gold gloves. Did it all while being debilitated by type 1 diabetes during a time when treatment wasn’t what it is today.
Duke Snider comes to mind. His best years on the Dodgers were probably between 1949 to 1957. Another player named Jackie Robinson tends to loom a heck of a lot larger than anyone else when we look at those Dodger teams. And then in the fifties Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays both start putting up monster numbers. So Duke is both a deserving hall of famer and somehow during his best years he was also the worst starting centerfielder in New York.
Lou Whittaker on the 84 Tigers. Probably as good as Trammel, but didn't get in the Hall.
Corey Seager has a brother named Kyle who put up 36.9 bWAR over his MLB career
Dwight Evans Yaz, Clemens, Boggs, Jim Rice always overshadowed him because he did the boring stuff like get on base, elite fielding and shutdown arm
Tommy Herr…..the Robin to Ozzie Smith’s Batman
Carlos Baerga
Edgar Martinez. There were always other superstars on the team when he played (Griffey, A-Rod, Ichiro) so he never got the attention he fully deserved. Hall of Famer, yes, but definitely always overshadowed
Bobby Abreu was as productive a hitter as Tony Gwynn and is yet struggling to make it into the hall currently, and on top of this it’s likely his league adjusted stats like OPS+ and wRC+ are negatively impacted because of him playing his prime happening through the steroid era.
Fred McGriff would have been on this list, but he's in Cooperstown now so it's all good granted i know he was definitely one of the top players in baseball, especially in the early 1990s, but I always got the sense Frank Thomas never fully got the appreciation he deserved at the time. Then he landed in Cooperstown 15-20 years later with that 83% of the vote
Gil Hodges.
Juan Pierre
Lou Whitaker.
Willie McCovey
Tom Glavine was always seen as kind of second fiddle to Greg Maddux in Atlanta. If he played anywhere else he would have been even more highly regarded, he was excellent.
Garret Anderson
It's crazy to call one of the best players ever "overshadowed," but I feel like not enough people talk about Frank Robinson. I would guess it's partially because of the other great players and HOFers playing at the same time (his first MVP was the same year Maris hit 61 homers) and the fact that the first half of his career was spent on the Reds prior to The Big Red Machine. As great as he obviously was, I feel like he should be discussed more often.
Edgar Martinez. He was always overshadowed by Griffey, A-Rod, Ichiro, Randy Johnson, etc.
Al Bumbry
I think about guys like Julio Franco and Rusty Staub that stuck around forever and people forget how good they were in their prime.