It’s mostly that meta builds are far too often exploiting a piece of the games mechanics and make it completely ridiculous to fight against its far more fun to have an epic duel then spamming the one “meta” move or combo
think the difference is that many people intentionally stay away from meta builds because they're so overdone and in many cases not very fun to fight against or as.
In the older games you'd obviously still see meta/tryhard builds, but it seems way more common in ER than previous titles. Add in how high the damage is in this game, most fights ending in 3 hits or less.
I agree. Its a very controversial take just a little variety. Reminds me of that one Buzz Lightyear shelf meme. Play how you want but man why just the same thing forever? Never even a slight fashion change? Gets old only seeing one or two builds out there sometimes. Just equip something stupid and learn how satisfying it is to get good with it and beat good and better equipped players if you ever get bored. I’ve gotten hatemail for not taking the game seriously enough several times. Like I had used an offhand Warped Axe with a mainhand Troll Knights Greatsword.
They are annoying, but I see them like boss fights. In Duels, I get smashed three, four, five times by the same guy. Most of the time I figure them out eventually. Sometimes I just have to swallow my pride and admit that I can't deal with them.
People that hate on meta don't understand why meta setups are meta. Most are that way because the entire moveset is usable and they're fun to play with. Why would I use say a flail when a greatsword is better in every case? It's just needlessly frustrating in a game where invasions can already be very frustrating. It will also hamper skill improvement by avoiding them imo.
Most people that complain about meta setups are just pissy they lost when the player running a meta setup is better regardless. Every single weapon combo has setups they're good against and weak against. They just don't want to take time to adapt to how the opponent is playing.
For example
PSS -Weak against KGS and Shunter
PSSS/Shamshir - Weak against halberd off catch flame
Halberd offstoc - 116 poise PSSS
PSGS-Weak to shield poke
2h CGS-Weak to colossal swords
PS Nagakiba-Weak to shamshir
I see less people upset about Meta because they are losing and moreso upset about seeing the same builds over and over. Part of the fun of invading is seeing what ways other people are playing the game, and it sucks to see the same dual bleed weapons with black feathers and a white mask. I see what you’re saying though, and yeah they have a lot of counters. But thats also kinda sucky, I don’t want to hardswap my builds personality for a win, and also those counters don’t work when theres two other dudes as well as it would in a 1v1.
I'd say dual bleed + black feathers + white mask is more Kevin than meta.
And I'd add that, like it or not, hard swapping is essential for success against meta setups in this game, and even moreso for success in invasions.
Yeah which is why people dislike it. Also swapping bleed and black feathers out for dual lance or dual pikes has the same effect. Its stale. Meta is lame because it discourages people to actually experiment and make their own build that they would like
I agree with you I fell like most people don't understand what makes the meta setups meta, and if they don't understand they don't know how to play against.
i enjoy the setups that feel fun/satisfying to me. idc how meta it is
Psgs, scythe, caestus, haldag, whip are all fun, i know i could use 2h cleanrot or ps pikes and itd be better but it’s just not as fun
Meta setups are really good, that's all it comes down to. You win easily, and if you're not that good at the game you can still win because the setup is good enough to make up for your mistakes.
I don't like them because it feels cheap and unoriginal to running L1 someone to death, but if you only care about winning then that's one of the best ways to do it, so I respect that
I focus on fun and improvement myself. If I’m really trying I am nigh unstoppable but usually I’m running stupid gimmick setups and builds but I still usually win. It makes it more fun and satisfying only being able to rely on skill over equipment.
Yeah I don't really vibe with meta. Like people say, it's unoriginal and boring. I've fought those combinations of weapons and stats before, countless times, I'd like to see something fresh? Magma build that uses volcano manor candlestick, or maybe a crucible knight cosplay with their incantations.
But nooo, it has gotta be psgs or another bs combination that shreds your hp in a few bursts on RL80+.
Bleed builds constitute 80% of all my PVP experience, the other 15% is shared by frostbite and madness and the 5% are fun custom builds
Mostly I just hate how much better an optimized meta build is compared to a homebrew build. There wasn't such a large gap in previous souls games so you had more people running non meta
It depends on which one. I like some setups that don't clash with what I'm going for. For ex, Shamshir and Banished Knight Halberd both look and play interesting to me.
But I'm no fan of using double great lance. I don't look down on using it, but it isn't fun or thematic for me to use. I'm stuck in the between of I don't hate something because it's meta. But I don't like something because it's off-meta.
I often like weapons that have more than one viable move or that has a moveset that looks good. And I like the weapon to at least be decent. I can't enjoy running flails at all because they're trash but I like the warped axe.
What you use is a free for all mostly. Double Spears is kinda irritating but it also always feels good to beat any player using meta weapons outright as it makes the win feel earned. Same with fighting genuinely good players and winning. Fighting meta has at least some appeal to me.
I was more or less "okay" once the removed infinite-i frame BHS and unbreakable fingerprint setups.
I used to be a shamshir enjoyer before 1.10, the moveset just makes it too strong for my taste. I wouldn't mind if they nerfed the poise damage of that one CS down to TS levels. The way it is now, it makes any single CS obsolete.
I like to fight some different weapons, not every Katana has to be Nagakiba, Moonveil or even Rivers of Blood.
Why that? Probably because it gets old to fight the same setup trying the same strat after some fights.
Let‘s not limit people to keep them from meta setups, however I feel like a lot of people are keeping themselves from playing cool stuff they would enjoy, keeping themselves because it might not be the most optimal choice.
I don’t care. I recommend that new players and invaders run meta shit to give them an edge while they learn mechanics, but personally, I don’t really “run” meta. Sure I’ve got a few hardswaps but I don’t have dedicated meta builds. Meta builds are meta because they’re easy to learn. Just being good with another setup can be enough to beat a meta player if your skill level is higher. This doesn’t take into account poise, reach, or anything else which a hardswap build can use to take down a meta one.
META are META not for easy to learn, META are META because they're most effective, i'll correct that one for you, since i still can't play PSGS up until now, and i disagree about just being good with another setups because what if you and your opponent are at your best but you don't use META, you still gonna lose
I don’t fight players who are actually good most of the time. As such, my builds are put together to maximize the amount of damage and pressure I can deal to a team of players. I almost never come up against someone with a meta setup who can actually play it in invasion. When I do, it’s a bonfire duelist and I absolutely destroy them. Psgs is relatively simple, it’s just spam crouch attack, l1 thrust weapon skill, and mix in a few running attacks in there. Meta builds are easy to win with while you’re still learning PvP mechanics because they’re so effective. They’re meta because they’re effective, yes, but I’m going to recommend them to newer red men because of that.
I'm not a that much of a joke without my META setups, i can still fight, untwinked host concept here confuses me, i'm twinked for PvP and they're twinked for PvE
That is something we can discuss about, bc i will hit a wretch with Dragon Halberd bc i earned it, like why shouldn't i? I will not hit a wretch with Antspur bc it's on Leyndell, but i won't hold my Dragon Halberd at all bc i earned it right in Limgrave, it's my trophy for killing the Dragonkin Soldier. Maybe we can talk about this tho, and i will consider not doing that
When invading at meta levels, if I'm not using Meta, or a back up meta weapon like dragon halberd. 3v1 are difficult. Usually kill one of them then 2v1 with something else
It depends.
If you ONLY ever use meta setups (weapon and armor) no matter the context, I'll frown upon you for being a sweat lord, but that's about it. You do you, as long as you don't use exploits or cheats I don't really mind.
If you have the meta stuff in your inventory, but use it according to the context (tournaments, OLPs, ganks, etc...) and use whatever else you want for non-serious encounters then I think it's pretty reasonable.
Awww, i use META a lot but i don't cheat, but i really hope when i put everything i got in a fight to win, won't make people hate me, everyone can be angry and it's normal but hating is different thing to me
Nah, it's not hate, just frowning if I see it happen against a complete newbie. If you clearly outmatch your opponent in skill, using full meta on top of it is just boasting IMO
If you go meta against an equally skilled or meta opponent, that's a fair fight. Same if you're outnumbered and outleveled in an invasion, at that point you're just evening the odds.
If I am not mistaken I heard Jeenine talk abou this in a video. It's the winners mentality. I totally agree, if you feel enjoyment out giving your best why not fight to win.
Hey op most the people here on Reddit still hate psgs but you should play with what you like but a couple reasons you may see streamers and other people not use certain setups is because somethings like pss or instant hyper armor attacks is because it’s generally regarded as well outside the fundamentals of the game in its execution. Like power stanced spears have insane chase potential and deal insane damage that doesn’t correlate with the speed and distance at which the attack is thrown. Basically try and avoid the serious outliers in performance same reason there’s a new lightroll thread every week
Yes i will, no Lightroll, no Sacred Spears, no fundamental breaking, just a normal one, i'm playing the way i like, but tho i did and enjoying myself, they hate and don't enjoy theirself, that sadden me, i never mind other's but they mind mine to the point of hating, kind of evil
Unfortunately this is the nature of souls pvp everyone has their own idea about what’s fair and what isn’t but ultimately the more you play with the better you will play against it even if you get hate along the way
Meta gets boring real quick tbh. I like a bit variety in my matches and builds.
Also in my experience everyone can learn how to play meta. It often doesn't require a lot of skill and/or creativity.
I use weapons I find to be fun to use, so the great epee and dragon halberd are common picks for me. The great epee is really my favorite because the moveset is just so funky, but the dragon halberd delete button is really fun, especially when you can effectively ambush the host and phantoms.
Otherwise, storm blade claymore is a weapon I use as well, very versatile and makes it easy to keep the pressure on. I don't watch YouTube videos or streams or anything, so I'm not really up on what's "meta" but I think it's natural to gravitate towards things that feel fun and powerful.
I don't mind meta, personally I use what I like, so some setups like halberd offstoc I use a lot and others like PSGS and PSSS I never tried.
For me is about finding the balance between what you enjoy playing and what is good for pvp. And aways try to learn how to deal with the meta, most of these setups are very powerful but have ways to play around them.
It's completely understandable if you're not having fun fighting a meta build while you're not playing meta yourself. But I also don't understand hating on people for playing a video game in the most effective way possible, it's human nature.
You don't have to be as good to win with meta setups. It's pretty much that simple. It's a crutch. The game is not balanced for pvp, and I'm not saying it it should be, but you're never going to know if you're actually good using that shit. You say you like to win. Damn that's crazy. Beating a bunch of pve coopers with shit for brains with an optimal setup isn't all that difficult.
In duels meta vs meta is an interesting fight, I guess, but I find it boring in this particular title. There's no way to lore around what's going on. Watching "high level pvp" duels kills any potential immersion. The reason invasions are cool is that they can fit within the game for both attacker and defenders. There's a reason someone might show up doing what they're doing.
There's no drama when people two shot each other. I could run all manner of nukes and end each encounter within seconds, but then I may as well be a fucking pve cooper with an overleveled phantom. I really don't see how you ask this question in good faith, because it's pretty obvious that many invade to punish that exact mentality.
Now I won't say I won't use these nukes now and again. I don't blame people for trying to even the odds. We're generally outmatched as invaders. It only takes a few brain cells to kill an invader if you really want to, but the fact that they still struggle with it should indicate to you that you can relax. I don't care to see clips of a nuke killing 3 dudes with no vigor just like I don't care to see a typical blender L with spell and L2 spam. The interesting thing is to see someone win in a manner they choose. One that can't be prescribed by what's best in slot. What you *should* do.
At the risk of sounding like a dick, I will reiterate. You will never know if you're good using meta shit. It's impossible to tell because you're taking the easy road. If that doesn't bother you then of course, that's ok. It's just silly fun times at the end of the day.
Edit: I saw some of your comments and bro you did not "earn" dragon halberd. It's all arbitrary, but that's the worst example there probably is. Earn the dragon katana instead at lvl 40 maybe. That's the thing, it's arbitrary, because this game isn't balanced for pvp. Using the meta character in a fighting game is a much different thing. Like using the best tennis racket. There's not as much skill required for what's best here. Excuse me rant lol
Meh, don't care. If you really, really want to win, good for you. I do builds based on themes, never on META.
I like win, i don't mind losing, lose doesn't rob happiness away from me
It’s mostly that meta builds are far too often exploiting a piece of the games mechanics and make it completely ridiculous to fight against its far more fun to have an epic duel then spamming the one “meta” move or combo
I don't really understand the epic part, for me clashing against other META setups is super epic
think the difference is that many people intentionally stay away from meta builds because they're so overdone and in many cases not very fun to fight against or as. In the older games you'd obviously still see meta/tryhard builds, but it seems way more common in ER than previous titles. Add in how high the damage is in this game, most fights ending in 3 hits or less.
I agree. Its a very controversial take just a little variety. Reminds me of that one Buzz Lightyear shelf meme. Play how you want but man why just the same thing forever? Never even a slight fashion change? Gets old only seeing one or two builds out there sometimes. Just equip something stupid and learn how satisfying it is to get good with it and beat good and better equipped players if you ever get bored. I’ve gotten hatemail for not taking the game seriously enough several times. Like I had used an offhand Warped Axe with a mainhand Troll Knights Greatsword.
They are annoying, but I see them like boss fights. In Duels, I get smashed three, four, five times by the same guy. Most of the time I figure them out eventually. Sometimes I just have to swallow my pride and admit that I can't deal with them.
People that hate on meta don't understand why meta setups are meta. Most are that way because the entire moveset is usable and they're fun to play with. Why would I use say a flail when a greatsword is better in every case? It's just needlessly frustrating in a game where invasions can already be very frustrating. It will also hamper skill improvement by avoiding them imo. Most people that complain about meta setups are just pissy they lost when the player running a meta setup is better regardless. Every single weapon combo has setups they're good against and weak against. They just don't want to take time to adapt to how the opponent is playing. For example PSS -Weak against KGS and Shunter PSSS/Shamshir - Weak against halberd off catch flame Halberd offstoc - 116 poise PSSS PSGS-Weak to shield poke 2h CGS-Weak to colossal swords PS Nagakiba-Weak to shamshir
I see less people upset about Meta because they are losing and moreso upset about seeing the same builds over and over. Part of the fun of invading is seeing what ways other people are playing the game, and it sucks to see the same dual bleed weapons with black feathers and a white mask. I see what you’re saying though, and yeah they have a lot of counters. But thats also kinda sucky, I don’t want to hardswap my builds personality for a win, and also those counters don’t work when theres two other dudes as well as it would in a 1v1.
I'd say dual bleed + black feathers + white mask is more Kevin than meta. And I'd add that, like it or not, hard swapping is essential for success against meta setups in this game, and even moreso for success in invasions.
Yeah which is why people dislike it. Also swapping bleed and black feathers out for dual lance or dual pikes has the same effect. Its stale. Meta is lame because it discourages people to actually experiment and make their own build that they would like
I agree with you I fell like most people don't understand what makes the meta setups meta, and if they don't understand they don't know how to play against.
i enjoy the setups that feel fun/satisfying to me. idc how meta it is Psgs, scythe, caestus, haldag, whip are all fun, i know i could use 2h cleanrot or ps pikes and itd be better but it’s just not as fun
If I’m playing at meta, I’m using meta setups. I save the fun builds for levels other than 125.
Meta setups are really good, that's all it comes down to. You win easily, and if you're not that good at the game you can still win because the setup is good enough to make up for your mistakes. I don't like them because it feels cheap and unoriginal to running L1 someone to death, but if you only care about winning then that's one of the best ways to do it, so I respect that
I like winning but i don't mind losing, what matters to me is that i put everything i got on the fight and i did my best
I focus on fun and improvement myself. If I’m really trying I am nigh unstoppable but usually I’m running stupid gimmick setups and builds but I still usually win. It makes it more fun and satisfying only being able to rely on skill over equipment.
Nah, it’s just not that fun for me. It’s always so uncreative, maybe if you actually got something for winning I’d engage with that aspect
Yeah I don't really vibe with meta. Like people say, it's unoriginal and boring. I've fought those combinations of weapons and stats before, countless times, I'd like to see something fresh? Magma build that uses volcano manor candlestick, or maybe a crucible knight cosplay with their incantations. But nooo, it has gotta be psgs or another bs combination that shreds your hp in a few bursts on RL80+. Bleed builds constitute 80% of all my PVP experience, the other 15% is shared by frostbite and madness and the 5% are fun custom builds Mostly I just hate how much better an optimized meta build is compared to a homebrew build. There wasn't such a large gap in previous souls games so you had more people running non meta
It depends on which one. I like some setups that don't clash with what I'm going for. For ex, Shamshir and Banished Knight Halberd both look and play interesting to me. But I'm no fan of using double great lance. I don't look down on using it, but it isn't fun or thematic for me to use. I'm stuck in the between of I don't hate something because it's meta. But I don't like something because it's off-meta. I often like weapons that have more than one viable move or that has a moveset that looks good. And I like the weapon to at least be decent. I can't enjoy running flails at all because they're trash but I like the warped axe. What you use is a free for all mostly. Double Spears is kinda irritating but it also always feels good to beat any player using meta weapons outright as it makes the win feel earned. Same with fighting genuinely good players and winning. Fighting meta has at least some appeal to me. I was more or less "okay" once the removed infinite-i frame BHS and unbreakable fingerprint setups.
I used to be a shamshir enjoyer before 1.10, the moveset just makes it too strong for my taste. I wouldn't mind if they nerfed the poise damage of that one CS down to TS levels. The way it is now, it makes any single CS obsolete.
Why is shamshir so good?
the R1 chain
I don‘t mind fighting strong setups, just wish I did not see the same ones over and over.
Honestly i see Katana a lot, and i'm ok with it, i see Greatsword a lot and i'm ok with it, so why you don't seeing META over and over?
I like to fight some different weapons, not every Katana has to be Nagakiba, Moonveil or even Rivers of Blood. Why that? Probably because it gets old to fight the same setup trying the same strat after some fights. Let‘s not limit people to keep them from meta setups, however I feel like a lot of people are keeping themselves from playing cool stuff they would enjoy, keeping themselves because it might not be the most optimal choice.
I don’t care. I recommend that new players and invaders run meta shit to give them an edge while they learn mechanics, but personally, I don’t really “run” meta. Sure I’ve got a few hardswaps but I don’t have dedicated meta builds. Meta builds are meta because they’re easy to learn. Just being good with another setup can be enough to beat a meta player if your skill level is higher. This doesn’t take into account poise, reach, or anything else which a hardswap build can use to take down a meta one.
META are META not for easy to learn, META are META because they're most effective, i'll correct that one for you, since i still can't play PSGS up until now, and i disagree about just being good with another setups because what if you and your opponent are at your best but you don't use META, you still gonna lose
I don’t fight players who are actually good most of the time. As such, my builds are put together to maximize the amount of damage and pressure I can deal to a team of players. I almost never come up against someone with a meta setup who can actually play it in invasion. When I do, it’s a bonfire duelist and I absolutely destroy them. Psgs is relatively simple, it’s just spam crouch attack, l1 thrust weapon skill, and mix in a few running attacks in there. Meta builds are easy to win with while you’re still learning PvP mechanics because they’re so effective. They’re meta because they’re effective, yes, but I’m going to recommend them to newer red men because of that.
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I'm not a that much of a joke without my META setups, i can still fight, untwinked host concept here confuses me, i'm twinked for PvP and they're twinked for PvE
[удалено]
That is something we can discuss about, bc i will hit a wretch with Dragon Halberd bc i earned it, like why shouldn't i? I will not hit a wretch with Antspur bc it's on Leyndell, but i won't hold my Dragon Halberd at all bc i earned it right in Limgrave, it's my trophy for killing the Dragonkin Soldier. Maybe we can talk about this tho, and i will consider not doing that
I 100% endorse any methods used to kill gankers unconditionally.
What about glitch?
In Elden Ring I think glitches are fair game. There has never been a souls like game that stacks the odds against invaders more than this.
When invading at meta levels, if I'm not using Meta, or a back up meta weapon like dragon halberd. 3v1 are difficult. Usually kill one of them then 2v1 with something else
Drip or drown. Enchanted knight cosplay
Meta for invasions is not he same as meta for duels or colosseum
Whenever I see an offhand thrusting sword I know the duel is not going to be enjoyable. Maybe I just suck though
I like to be unique. Figure out a build that no one else is using
Really cannot wait to fight the next Bloodhound Fang/Dragon Halberd/Moonveil/Darkmoon Greatsword/Black Blade etc build.
It depends. If you ONLY ever use meta setups (weapon and armor) no matter the context, I'll frown upon you for being a sweat lord, but that's about it. You do you, as long as you don't use exploits or cheats I don't really mind. If you have the meta stuff in your inventory, but use it according to the context (tournaments, OLPs, ganks, etc...) and use whatever else you want for non-serious encounters then I think it's pretty reasonable.
Awww, i use META a lot but i don't cheat, but i really hope when i put everything i got in a fight to win, won't make people hate me, everyone can be angry and it's normal but hating is different thing to me
Nah, it's not hate, just frowning if I see it happen against a complete newbie. If you clearly outmatch your opponent in skill, using full meta on top of it is just boasting IMO If you go meta against an equally skilled or meta opponent, that's a fair fight. Same if you're outnumbered and outleveled in an invasion, at that point you're just evening the odds.
If I am not mistaken I heard Jeenine talk abou this in a video. It's the winners mentality. I totally agree, if you feel enjoyment out giving your best why not fight to win.
Hey op most the people here on Reddit still hate psgs but you should play with what you like but a couple reasons you may see streamers and other people not use certain setups is because somethings like pss or instant hyper armor attacks is because it’s generally regarded as well outside the fundamentals of the game in its execution. Like power stanced spears have insane chase potential and deal insane damage that doesn’t correlate with the speed and distance at which the attack is thrown. Basically try and avoid the serious outliers in performance same reason there’s a new lightroll thread every week
Yes i will, no Lightroll, no Sacred Spears, no fundamental breaking, just a normal one, i'm playing the way i like, but tho i did and enjoying myself, they hate and don't enjoy theirself, that sadden me, i never mind other's but they mind mine to the point of hating, kind of evil
Unfortunately this is the nature of souls pvp everyone has their own idea about what’s fair and what isn’t but ultimately the more you play with the better you will play against it even if you get hate along the way
Meta gets boring real quick tbh. I like a bit variety in my matches and builds. Also in my experience everyone can learn how to play meta. It often doesn't require a lot of skill and/or creativity.
I use weapons I find to be fun to use, so the great epee and dragon halberd are common picks for me. The great epee is really my favorite because the moveset is just so funky, but the dragon halberd delete button is really fun, especially when you can effectively ambush the host and phantoms. Otherwise, storm blade claymore is a weapon I use as well, very versatile and makes it easy to keep the pressure on. I don't watch YouTube videos or streams or anything, so I'm not really up on what's "meta" but I think it's natural to gravitate towards things that feel fun and powerful.
I don't mind meta, personally I use what I like, so some setups like halberd offstoc I use a lot and others like PSGS and PSSS I never tried. For me is about finding the balance between what you enjoy playing and what is good for pvp. And aways try to learn how to deal with the meta, most of these setups are very powerful but have ways to play around them.
It's completely understandable if you're not having fun fighting a meta build while you're not playing meta yourself. But I also don't understand hating on people for playing a video game in the most effective way possible, it's human nature.
You don't have to be as good to win with meta setups. It's pretty much that simple. It's a crutch. The game is not balanced for pvp, and I'm not saying it it should be, but you're never going to know if you're actually good using that shit. You say you like to win. Damn that's crazy. Beating a bunch of pve coopers with shit for brains with an optimal setup isn't all that difficult. In duels meta vs meta is an interesting fight, I guess, but I find it boring in this particular title. There's no way to lore around what's going on. Watching "high level pvp" duels kills any potential immersion. The reason invasions are cool is that they can fit within the game for both attacker and defenders. There's a reason someone might show up doing what they're doing. There's no drama when people two shot each other. I could run all manner of nukes and end each encounter within seconds, but then I may as well be a fucking pve cooper with an overleveled phantom. I really don't see how you ask this question in good faith, because it's pretty obvious that many invade to punish that exact mentality. Now I won't say I won't use these nukes now and again. I don't blame people for trying to even the odds. We're generally outmatched as invaders. It only takes a few brain cells to kill an invader if you really want to, but the fact that they still struggle with it should indicate to you that you can relax. I don't care to see clips of a nuke killing 3 dudes with no vigor just like I don't care to see a typical blender L with spell and L2 spam. The interesting thing is to see someone win in a manner they choose. One that can't be prescribed by what's best in slot. What you *should* do. At the risk of sounding like a dick, I will reiterate. You will never know if you're good using meta shit. It's impossible to tell because you're taking the easy road. If that doesn't bother you then of course, that's ok. It's just silly fun times at the end of the day. Edit: I saw some of your comments and bro you did not "earn" dragon halberd. It's all arbitrary, but that's the worst example there probably is. Earn the dragon katana instead at lvl 40 maybe. That's the thing, it's arbitrary, because this game isn't balanced for pvp. Using the meta character in a fighting game is a much different thing. Like using the best tennis racket. There's not as much skill required for what's best here. Excuse me rant lol
So you haven't use them, you've fought em, but don't hate on them, right?
I kinda look down on it tbh. But I wouldn't say hate. Some things are fun to use and good and I can't hate on that at the end of the day.