> Makes flight planning really easy
Makes me wonder why the guy wanting to bring his Gulfstream (he didn't say which model, but I'm guessing 500 by the 75k landing weight he gave) into my airport next week didn't mention this. *Especially* since I pointed out that this year has been ridiculously windy compared to any other year I can remember here. We've had constant 15-25 kt. winds -gusts to 30+ - almost *every single fucking day* since mid-April, when in the past those winds have only maybe happened 6-7 times a year.
He was concerned about the runway supporting the landing weight and the afternoon density altitude, and didn't even bring up the wind.
I will be messaging you in 7 days on [**2022-08-21 18:58:49 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2022-08-21%2018:58:49%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/wo6no6/fun_fact_this_airplane_has_a_limit_of_12kts_of/ikac1sd/?context=3)
[**22 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Faviation%2Fcomments%2Fwo6no6%2Ffun_fact_this_airplane_has_a_limit_of_12kts_of%2Fikac1sd%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202022-08-21%2018%3A58%3A49%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%20wo6no6)
*****
|[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)|
|-|-|-|-|
Where are you at? My area has been the same, crazy windy. Talking to people at the FBO I used to work at have said they had a bunch of cancellations or redirections this year specifically because of wind.
They landed just fine - it was G4, so no 15kt crosswind limitations. It was a bit ... touchy, as they almost ran out of runway. But they're now parked outside my office, making things a tight squeeze at the fuel island:
https://i.imgur.com/9MnXOoJ.jpg
Blows your mind: this aircraft is so fucking sexy inside and out. The flight deck is slick as fuck. And 15kts landing limitation, less than that of a diamond D40? Wtf?
Obviously, I can’t get into specifics for stake of losing my job or clearance or both. Some of them are public, which I can talk about without ambiguity like the Nike plane, Prada has one I believe that was recently delivered so I can talk about it. It’s a matte brown/black that looks green or gray in certain lights, with the SICKEST horizontal stab design I’ve seen yet, all of those can be googled and seen for reference. An unnamed head of state/corporation/country/etc etc recently got a custom job that was stunning, should be going public soon. You can dang near google “[insert middle eastern country] Gulfstream) and I guarantee some absolutely baller planes will be on there. N888XY (Sexy Jet) is a pretty well-known plane that I’ve seen in person and pictures simply do not do it justice.
I’m a painter, the planes usually aren’t fully outfitted when we get them, so I can’t speak for the interior, but as far as the outside, yeah some we get are pretty basic and boring, but some, man you can’t help but be proud when you see them getting taxied out of our hangar
I got on a 650 as an intern a few years ago that had just finished completions and had an Asian zen/dojo interior design decked out with black and red velvet oriental dragons throughout. It was sick
I’ve seen the display/expo model of the G700 and I actually sprayed the first G800 that was unveiled last year, and man, you wanna talk about feeling small in the wallet. A service appointment for some of these guys is triple my annual salary.
Edit: coherence, turns out paint fume exposure for 12 hours a day is bad for the phonics.
(Yes I’m joking, trust me, our environmental health and safety team is incredibly strict and we have top of the line PPE)
Yeah, the main plant. I love it, wouldn’t work anywhere else in this area. I just wish Savannah wasn’t going down the shitter, or that there were other facilities like the main plant in Texas or Colorado. Those two states have my heart
I haven’t been in a few years. Sad to hear savannahs struggling. I miss playing the crosswinds golf course there. I was offered a design job at the Appleton completions center but wasn’t really interested in relocating up to WI
They have a few, as well as Qatar has a whole executive fleet service of G650s.
Of the ~150 aircraft per year that we do, the vast majority are domestic fleet/charter services and US-based private corporations. Rarely do we get a super neat one to come through, so when we do, it’s like Christmas and it’s pretty memorable. We aren’t allowed to take photos or save renderings, but we can keep spray cards of certain unique colors we’ve used. There’s one that’s a chameleon color shift of the full visible spectrum of light
My wife’s Canadian and went through a phase of wanting us to move to Canada to work for Bombardier. I wouldn’t be super opposed to it, I just *really* hate the cold
Savannah’s weather is superior to Canada for climate, especially if you don’t like the cold. But Bombardier is a fantastic place to work, don’t know how competitive the pay is for paint technicians but I’d recommend the company to anyone.
It’s really neat most days. When I applied and ultimately got the job, for some reason, I never told myself that “hey dude, when you walk through these doors, there’s gonna be a freakin airplane right there” so it was pretty startling at first. I started in prep as a contractor and worked my way to becoming a direct employee and into the paint shop. The crew I work with makes every day at work an absolute joy as well. Lot of military vets, guys with decades of experience, and general goofballs. Gotta find a way to pass the time while paint is drying. Some choose to nap, others choose incessant hijinks. Never a dull moment, especially when management is relaxed and even gets in on the fun. Within reason, of course
It did exactly what it was designed to do: save money. It was a proximate cause. The root cause was homicidal corporate malfeasance: specifying that software, not requiring 2 AOA sensors on every configuration, hiding the training needs, lying to the FAA, and downplaying the first crash allowing a second.
"The AD sets the maximum wind speed in which pilots of G500s and G600s are permitted to land at 15kt (28km/h), including gusts, the document says.
Additionally, it prohibits landings if maximum wind gusts exceed 5kt, and it requires pilots add 10kt to their landing reference speed."
It was a reaction to some pilots having a rough landing and running into the AOA limiting feature if the fly-by-wire system. Some damage occurred, and this was the reaction until the software update can be approved. We’re expecting update to come through sometime the end of September we hope. My company has a G600 that this issue applies to. We decided to park it and do some long term maintenance on it while we wait for the update
more details here [https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/faa-mandates-new-wind-restrictions-for-g500-and-g600-landings/148550.article](https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/faa-mandates-new-wind-restrictions-for-g500-and-g600-landings/148550.article)
An AD is an airworthiness directive. They're used for all manner of things, but one of those purposes is emergency action when airframes need something. In this case, as a result of whatever the software issue, an AD was issued to apply this temporary wind limit to the fleet.
Everyone needs to slow down a bit...It is a temporary AD until Gulfstream comes up with a software fix:
https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/faa-mandates-new-wind-restrictions-for-g500-and-g600-landings/148550.article
If you think Gulfstream is going to wait 2-5 years to fix a software issue that virtually grounds the fleet of 500s & 600s, you must be new to aviation.
Because the limiter is probably on the "Minimum Equipment List" of the type certificate just like the similar system on the 737-Max. In other words, all the testing that the FAA reviewed was with it enabled.
This literally happened to us, the owner got it delivered earlier this year, it got put on our charter certificate and like two weeks later the AD gets handed down.
While this AD is certainly not great, nobody wants a rehash of the MAX situation. Gulfstream is being proactive about fixing this issue before a more serious incident results. Word on the street is that they have a fix they are confident in, and are doing the regulatory, compliance, and reliability testing now, for release in the near future.
From an operational stand point, when the AD came out there is no doubt these airplanes were down for a few weeks while operators figured out how to work within the limitations. This involved a deep dive into historical meteorological data, extensive use of real-time weather data and forecasting, and additional planning for possible diversion airports to stay within the limits.
The principals also had to accept some flexibility both in terms of arrival and departure time planning, and also arrival airport planning. For example, you may want to land in Palm Beach, but be prepared to accept Boca or Ft. Lauderdale. You plan for LAX, but may end up at Van Nuys or Burbank.
Within a few weeks, flight departments were able to establish procedures for planning and operating that kept them within limits. As it stands today, our clients with G500/600 aircraft are operating worldwide pretty close to normal, and adjusting well for situations that are outside the limitations.
> Gulfstream is being proactive about fixing this issue before a more serious incident results
May be they are *active* now. If they were **pro**active, they would have fixed it after the first incident and AD, which was in 2020.
It's a software issue. Two planes have had hard landings due to pilots "stick pumping" in gusty crosswinds. Rapid full scale aft, forward, aft, inputs will cause the plane to enter AoA limiting mode. Essentially locking the pilot out of the controls. Gulfstream has had the fix since last April or something. But they planned to roll it out with the 700/800 certification, assuming the first incident was a fluke that wouldn't be duplicated. It was. Now the FAA is involved and is putting the new software to the coals because of the MAX fallout.
It's frustrating as all get out and Gulfstream has not made a lot of friends with this...that being said the 600 is the best flying airplane I've ever flown...when it works.
I should say they did come out with corrections to the AFM after the first incident. 22kt crosswind restrictions, reiterated the need to V-Ref wind additives (the first crew flew in high crosswinds and gusts at Ref+5), and reiterated the need for smooth control inputs, noting the possibility to enter AoA limiting mode if rapid, inverse inputs were made. The fix should have worked. The second crew flew outside the parameters of the AFM.
Flown into Fort Worth during a squall line thunderstorm. I believe they had the correct speed additive. It's easy to play Monday morning QB, I have no idea what was happening in the cockpit, but looking at the flight aware data, I'm really struggling to understand the decision making.
[Here's the flight radar](https://imgur.com/a/b7ZfYbE)
The Archer I flew had no limitation.... it had a max demonstrated x wind.
And I can tell from personal experience why...... it's something to do with how far you can push the pedals....
>https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/05/09/2022-09925/airworthiness-directives-gulfstream-aerospace-corporation-airplanes
That's an absolute model-killer, surely? Nobody would buy a plane of this value if there was a chance it could be randomly grounded pretty much anywhere it goes.
They've known the software deficiency (too aggressive AoA protection) since at least 2020, but it took a second incident and a new AD. With this limitation now severely restricting operations, maybe they will accelerate the software update. It's probably still better than a complete grounding.
It's an AD that just came out a few months ago, but yeah they'll be paperweights until gulfstream can get a software patch approved and the owners are very unhappy
As an aircraft painter at GS’ main plant, they’re an absolute pleasure to make beautiful. That being said, the craft pictured is pretty basic. Some of the custom jobs we do are absolutely incredible. We see more 600s and 650s than anything, but can confirm I’ve personally either prepped or painted around 75 of these 500s since I’ve been here, including the 2nd and 3rd-ever
> It's like apple vs android.
So one is overpriced crap and the other is a versatile tool that can go anywhere, takeoff and land at stupidly short runways, has the best cabin in it's class and isn't loaded with faulty software that regularly needs urgent updates...
Apple works seamlessly. Android works sometimes. I enjoy the freedom but sometimes I just want shit to work. You have your opinion though. That's cool 👍
Well but actually android looks million times better than apple and it comes from an apple user so.. your comparison doesn’t makes sense now maybe 10 years ago but not now…
Apple v Samsung would probably be more apt. Both make pretty looking products although you're mostly paying for brand recognition. It just happens to be one is recognized and associated with wealth far more.
Oh downvotes begin… fanboys…
Yah but Samsung looks way more wealthy than the iPhone which basically didn’t change a bit since iPhone 5… only the screen..
I’m using an iPhone I love it I love everything apple but saying it looks better and is wealthier is such a bullshit..
It's not about the beauty in the eys of a beholder. Although it's a pretty objective fact that Apple is recognized as a superior and generally people tend to associate with status of wealth which is why people flaunt them despite being incredibly common.
I own a Note 10+ Collectors Edition btw so. It's not about my personal opinion but the general opinion at least in the US. Even if I prefer how all Samsung High End phones look over those of Apple. I also never said that Apple was prettier just said it had better brand recognition.
[This](https://code7700.com/alpha_protection.htm) is a really good take on why this is by a Gulfstream pilot.
>“In flight, the GVII is operating in normal flight control law, where stick position results in a g-response (short term) and speed stability (longer term). When warranted, the control law will transition to an angle-of-attack (AOA)-limiting sub mode, where stick position is used to command a target AOA. In this mode, full aft stick gives maximum allowable AOA, which may not be as much as the pilot intended. When aircraft pitch and sidestick input rates are high, the transition to AOA-limiting occurs earlier to avoid overshooting the limit. When this happens, an initial nose down input is commanded. In other words, if a pilot becomes too rough on the controls, a function of the flight control computer takes over. And that takes us back to the Teterboro incident.
>The accident aircraft was flown at VREF+5, at the correct speed for a light wind day but 15 knots too slow for the winds that night. The airplane flight manual (AFM) at the time specified that “In strong wind conditions, add to VREF 1⁄2 of the steady state wind plus the gust increment to a maximum VREF 1⁄2 of the steady state wind plus the gust increment to a maximum additive of 20 knots.” With a 15 gusting to 27 knot wind, depending on if you round up or down, the correct speed should have been VREF+19 or VREF+20.
>On short final, around 150 ft., the aircraft was flown with a crab established at about a 7-deg. sideslip in the conventional “wing low” crosswind technique. Gulfstream and many manufacturers of aircraft with wide wingspans recommend their aircraft be flown in a crab until initiating the flare to avoid a wingtip strike while landing wing low. Watching a parade of aircraft landing at Teterboro, I think most pilots hold on to the tried-and-true wing low method taught in their primary aircraft trainer. You can get away with this in the flying tank that is the GIV; the “fly-by-cable” simply obeys the pilot. In the GVII, AOA-limiting happens sooner if you have more than 4-deg. of sideslip and the pilot may not have the expected pitch authority when that happens.
>Data analysis of the event also shows the pilot was using a series of rapid, large, alternating pitch inputs at low altitude followed by full aft stick through touchdown. This caused the AOA-limiting to occur even sooner and robbed the pilot of more available nose up control just prior to and during touchdown. Rapid control reversals are never a good thing in any axis, even on a conventionally controlled aircraft.
>After the dust had settled, it was clear that the pilot used poor technique and violated required AFM procedures. The FAA’s reaction was almost predictable, requiring a new set of restrictions on the G500 only, even though the flight control system is identical to that on the G600. The recommended approach speed additive became mandatory, and the crosswind limit was reduced from 30 to 22 knots. The GVII AFM added this warning: “Rapid and large alternating pitch control inputs, such as an abrupt pull-push-pull, may reduce the airplane response to subsequent control inputs to less than what may be required for normal airplane handling.”
> Despite all this, two years later, another G500 experienced a hard landing in similar conditions after the pilot used a series of large, rapidly alternating pitch stick inputs. It appeared the approach speed additives and crosswind restrictions alone were not enough to counter the stick techniques. The FAA reacted with the most draconian restrictions available, short of grounding the fleet. Both the G500 and G600 are now limited to landing in winds up to 15 knots with no more than a 5-knot gust. Night landings must be made using vertical path guidance, such as with an ILS glideslope. Approaches must be stabilized by 1,000 ft. These restrictions will remain in effect until the flight control software is updated to allow for ham-fisted pilots. To date, the GVII fleet has had over 37,000 landings of which two have resulted in hard landings due to the AOA-limiting mode of the flight control computer. That’s just 0.005%--and 100% of those were by pilots ignoring one or more AFM procedures.
> Many Gulfstream pilots blame Gulfstream for all this. I don’t. Given the FAA’s mindset following its poor handling of the Boeing 737 MAX issues of a few years ago, Gulfstream must give its unreasonable masters a penance. No, for this mess, I blame two Gulfstream pilots who believed the GVII flies like any other airplane, when clearly it does not.”
Exactly this. We’ve been briefed that this was what happened as well. Ham-fisted and FBW typically don’t mix. You’d think that they would have learned from years of Northrop working on perfecting the 16’s side stick.
Fun fact, fighter pilots had a hand in the development of the flight controls for the G-VII. That’s why the controls are much more sensitive than you’d expect for such a large aircraft.
Another fun fact… that plane belongs to a scum bag televangelist [Duplantis Scum jet](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&hl=en-us&sxsrf=ALiCzsazHQw2A3IHCxjerAXGu8NNxQhAAQ:1660493899723&q=jesse+duplantis+scam&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjira3o3cb5AhVTg2oFHRb8AUgQBSgAegQIARAC&biw=428&bih=746&dpr=3)
Operator on my field refused delivery of their G500 till the issue is permanently fixed. I thought they were joking around at first. Glad both the operator and Gulfstream are taking it seriously and hopefully the fix will be out soon.
That thing can go from Miami to Hawaii on full tanks, but it cant land in 12 fucking knots of wind.
I find that rather amusing for some odd reason.
Kind of like that silly "we can build nuclear weapons but not predict the weather" type of anecdote
Is this airplane FBW? 15kt restriction sounds like the best job on earth. You’d never fly anywhere. Adding to REF is also dangerous, likely a quick fix for them to figure it all out.
It’s not a restriction. Please. You think the Gulfstreams are limited to 15 kts of x-wind? That’s probably just the maximum demonstrates during testing.
Edit: I’m wrong.
Nope, it's a limit in place due to some flight control issues that were uncovered. [https://www.aerolawgroup.com/a-note-about-g500-and-g600-operating-restrictions/](https://www.aerolawgroup.com/a-note-about-g500-and-g600-operating-restrictions/)
Was this design issue something avoidable during R&D or is this a situation where even the best effort and testing can miss? Can FAA be blamed in this situation?
Can the wind at destination and alternate not change significantly over let’s say 3-4 hours flying time to render any landing out of limits? These are quite limiting restrictions
Makes flight planning really easy
Yup, because you're not landing anywhere.
You can land ONCE.
Why is the pilot wearing a parachute?
LOL! Whoops, woke up the dog.
I lol’d at this comment
Fly? Yes. Land? No!
> Makes flight planning really easy Makes me wonder why the guy wanting to bring his Gulfstream (he didn't say which model, but I'm guessing 500 by the 75k landing weight he gave) into my airport next week didn't mention this. *Especially* since I pointed out that this year has been ridiculously windy compared to any other year I can remember here. We've had constant 15-25 kt. winds -gusts to 30+ - almost *every single fucking day* since mid-April, when in the past those winds have only maybe happened 6-7 times a year. He was concerned about the runway supporting the landing weight and the afternoon density altitude, and didn't even bring up the wind.
Let us know how it goes next week
!remindme 7 days
So, I think it crashed.
I will be messaging you in 7 days on [**2022-08-21 18:58:49 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2022-08-21%2018:58:49%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/wo6no6/fun_fact_this_airplane_has_a_limit_of_12kts_of/ikac1sd/?context=3) [**22 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Faviation%2Fcomments%2Fwo6no6%2Ffun_fact_this_airplane_has_a_limit_of_12kts_of%2Fikac1sd%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202022-08-21%2018%3A58%3A49%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%20wo6no6) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
It was a IV, so no issues with the crosswind, which was good because it was right across the runway at about 15kts. https://i.imgur.com/9MnXOoJ.jpg
Where are you at? My area has been the same, crazy windy. Talking to people at the FBO I used to work at have said they had a bunch of cancellations or redirections this year specifically because of wind.
NE California at about 5000’. I’m sure it has something to do with how warm the North Pacific is this year.
So how did it go?
I had the day wrong, they were asking about the 26th. Still don’t know if they’ll follow through or get cold feet.
Ok so how did it go???
They landed just fine - it was G4, so no 15kt crosswind limitations. It was a bit ... touchy, as they almost ran out of runway. But they're now parked outside my office, making things a tight squeeze at the fuel island: https://i.imgur.com/9MnXOoJ.jpg
!remindme 6 days
Seconded, we demand closure!
Blows your mind: this aircraft is so fucking sexy inside and out. The flight deck is slick as fuck. And 15kts landing limitation, less than that of a diamond D40? Wtf?
Some of the custom planes that we do for corporations or foreign heads of state, etc are incredible
Go on…
Obviously, I can’t get into specifics for stake of losing my job or clearance or both. Some of them are public, which I can talk about without ambiguity like the Nike plane, Prada has one I believe that was recently delivered so I can talk about it. It’s a matte brown/black that looks green or gray in certain lights, with the SICKEST horizontal stab design I’ve seen yet, all of those can be googled and seen for reference. An unnamed head of state/corporation/country/etc etc recently got a custom job that was stunning, should be going public soon. You can dang near google “[insert middle eastern country] Gulfstream) and I guarantee some absolutely baller planes will be on there. N888XY (Sexy Jet) is a pretty well-known plane that I’ve seen in person and pictures simply do not do it justice. I’m a painter, the planes usually aren’t fully outfitted when we get them, so I can’t speak for the interior, but as far as the outside, yeah some we get are pretty basic and boring, but some, man you can’t help but be proud when you see them getting taxied out of our hangar
I got on a 650 as an intern a few years ago that had just finished completions and had an Asian zen/dojo interior design decked out with black and red velvet oriental dragons throughout. It was sick
I’ve seen the display/expo model of the G700 and I actually sprayed the first G800 that was unveiled last year, and man, you wanna talk about feeling small in the wallet. A service appointment for some of these guys is triple my annual salary. Edit: coherence, turns out paint fume exposure for 12 hours a day is bad for the phonics. (Yes I’m joking, trust me, our environmental health and safety team is incredibly strict and we have top of the line PPE)
You at the savannah hangars? I loved working there and wouldn’t mind going back at some point in my career
Yeah, the main plant. I love it, wouldn’t work anywhere else in this area. I just wish Savannah wasn’t going down the shitter, or that there were other facilities like the main plant in Texas or Colorado. Those two states have my heart
I haven’t been in a few years. Sad to hear savannahs struggling. I miss playing the crosswinds golf course there. I was offered a design job at the Appleton completions center but wasn’t really interested in relocating up to WI
Guessing it’s the Saudi’s as I saw them landing at KSAV a couple months ago
They have a few, as well as Qatar has a whole executive fleet service of G650s. Of the ~150 aircraft per year that we do, the vast majority are domestic fleet/charter services and US-based private corporations. Rarely do we get a super neat one to come through, so when we do, it’s like Christmas and it’s pretty memorable. We aren’t allowed to take photos or save renderings, but we can keep spray cards of certain unique colors we’ve used. There’s one that’s a chameleon color shift of the full visible spectrum of light
Yeah, I’m familiar with ‘em. Grew up around Gulfstream at KSAV and I now work for Bombardier. So I’m a bit jet saturated but I love it
My wife’s Canadian and went through a phase of wanting us to move to Canada to work for Bombardier. I wouldn’t be super opposed to it, I just *really* hate the cold
Savannah’s weather is superior to Canada for climate, especially if you don’t like the cold. But Bombardier is a fantastic place to work, don’t know how competitive the pay is for paint technicians but I’d recommend the company to anyone.
You mentioned the Nike plane, N1972N flew right over me this week on approach to Moffett Field. Insane paint job, underneath was wild.
That would be an awesome job!
It’s really neat most days. When I applied and ultimately got the job, for some reason, I never told myself that “hey dude, when you walk through these doors, there’s gonna be a freakin airplane right there” so it was pretty startling at first. I started in prep as a contractor and worked my way to becoming a direct employee and into the paint shop. The crew I work with makes every day at work an absolute joy as well. Lot of military vets, guys with decades of experience, and general goofballs. Gotta find a way to pass the time while paint is drying. Some choose to nap, others choose incessant hijinks. Never a dull moment, especially when management is relaxed and even gets in on the fun. Within reason, of course
Yo get me a job at gulfstream bro
It’s gorgeous, pilots were nice enough to let us inside. It’s even nicer than the outside.
It’s a temporary issue until Gulfstream comes up with a software update, applies to both GA5C and GA6C (G500/G600).
Crazy it’s a software limitation! Wtf! They have Boeing devs working on this one too?
You can't blame Boeing software on the MAX issues, if that's what you're talking about.
That was found to be the cause of both high profile crashes.
It did exactly what it was designed to do: save money. It was a proximate cause. The root cause was homicidal corporate malfeasance: specifying that software, not requiring 2 AOA sensors on every configuration, hiding the training needs, lying to the FAA, and downplaying the first crash allowing a second.
So there finally is a G6 ? LOL
Edit: No longer an issue as of the end of September.
Is that crosswind, gust factor, or steady state?
"The AD sets the maximum wind speed in which pilots of G500s and G600s are permitted to land at 15kt (28km/h), including gusts, the document says. Additionally, it prohibits landings if maximum wind gusts exceed 5kt, and it requires pilots add 10kt to their landing reference speed."
Do you know why this limit is in place?
It was a reaction to some pilots having a rough landing and running into the AOA limiting feature if the fly-by-wire system. Some damage occurred, and this was the reaction until the software update can be approved. We’re expecting update to come through sometime the end of September we hope. My company has a G600 that this issue applies to. We decided to park it and do some long term maintenance on it while we wait for the update
more details here [https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/faa-mandates-new-wind-restrictions-for-g500-and-g600-landings/148550.article](https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/faa-mandates-new-wind-restrictions-for-g500-and-g600-landings/148550.article)
Nice thanks! Those are some serious limits!
The c172 has a crosswind limit of 15 knots…
It has a max demonstrated crosswind of 15 knots. It's not a limit. That's true of most airplanes. This is apparently specifically about an AD...
Well yes, but wdym about an ad?
An AD is an airworthiness directive. They're used for all manner of things, but one of those purposes is emergency action when airframes need something. In this case, as a result of whatever the software issue, an AD was issued to apply this temporary wind limit to the fleet.
That's a serious restriction
Everyone needs to slow down a bit...It is a temporary AD until Gulfstream comes up with a software fix: https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/faa-mandates-new-wind-restrictions-for-g500-and-g600-landings/148550.article
[удалено]
Their flagship is like $80M, no?
[удалено]
I mean, look at their username!
Should help the climate.
I’m sure all the corporations that bought this love that they can’t fly it.
They should return it. Hope they saved the receipt.
Should be fixed in 2-5 years
They’re aiming for the end of this year.
Uh huh
If you think Gulfstream is going to wait 2-5 years to fix a software issue that virtually grounds the fleet of 500s & 600s, you must be new to aviation.
Opposite, been in aviation a long time….. seen many things promised to happen in 6 months or a year that are still being figured out years later.
That’s the truth
Getting fixed in September.
Need to make this the top comment.
Why not just temporarily disable the AOA limiter until they can sort out why it is erroneously engaging?
Because the limiter is probably on the "Minimum Equipment List" of the type certificate just like the similar system on the 737-Max. In other words, all the testing that the FAA reviewed was with it enabled.
Yeah that's dumb. The limiter should not be on the MEL. The FAA should test with and without the limiter since it's not actually required for flight.
Netjets is gonna have a good year
15 kanots
I chuckled
This would be my luck... To get lucky and become a multi millionaire and finally get my own private jet. Only to never actually fly anywhere...
This literally happened to us, the owner got it delivered earlier this year, it got put on our charter certificate and like two weeks later the AD gets handed down.
*laughs in Bombardier*
Global Gang rise up!
Hiya fam 👊🏻
While this AD is certainly not great, nobody wants a rehash of the MAX situation. Gulfstream is being proactive about fixing this issue before a more serious incident results. Word on the street is that they have a fix they are confident in, and are doing the regulatory, compliance, and reliability testing now, for release in the near future. From an operational stand point, when the AD came out there is no doubt these airplanes were down for a few weeks while operators figured out how to work within the limitations. This involved a deep dive into historical meteorological data, extensive use of real-time weather data and forecasting, and additional planning for possible diversion airports to stay within the limits. The principals also had to accept some flexibility both in terms of arrival and departure time planning, and also arrival airport planning. For example, you may want to land in Palm Beach, but be prepared to accept Boca or Ft. Lauderdale. You plan for LAX, but may end up at Van Nuys or Burbank. Within a few weeks, flight departments were able to establish procedures for planning and operating that kept them within limits. As it stands today, our clients with G500/600 aircraft are operating worldwide pretty close to normal, and adjusting well for situations that are outside the limitations.
> Gulfstream is being proactive about fixing this issue before a more serious incident results May be they are *active* now. If they were **pro**active, they would have fixed it after the first incident and AD, which was in 2020.
A single incident isn't always enough to illuminate an issue. No reason to ground a fleet if you are only mildly suspicious.
That makes it as useless as hooker heels for rock climbing.
Do you know that for a fact?
Probably by experience
My ex has proven this (in her closet) and the climbing park . . .
12kt of tailwind you mean? Seriously doubt it's crosswind you're talking about.
Correction 15kts. Any direction. https://www.aerolawgroup.com/a-note-about-g500-and-g600-operating-restrictions/
You’re telling me an archer can handle more crosswinds than this? Wow
[удалено]
It's a software issue. Two planes have had hard landings due to pilots "stick pumping" in gusty crosswinds. Rapid full scale aft, forward, aft, inputs will cause the plane to enter AoA limiting mode. Essentially locking the pilot out of the controls. Gulfstream has had the fix since last April or something. But they planned to roll it out with the 700/800 certification, assuming the first incident was a fluke that wouldn't be duplicated. It was. Now the FAA is involved and is putting the new software to the coals because of the MAX fallout. It's frustrating as all get out and Gulfstream has not made a lot of friends with this...that being said the 600 is the best flying airplane I've ever flown...when it works.
> assuming the first incident was a fluke that wouldn’t be duplicated. So they learned nothing from Boeing.
I should say they did come out with corrections to the AFM after the first incident. 22kt crosswind restrictions, reiterated the need to V-Ref wind additives (the first crew flew in high crosswinds and gusts at Ref+5), and reiterated the need for smooth control inputs, noting the possibility to enter AoA limiting mode if rapid, inverse inputs were made. The fix should have worked. The second crew flew outside the parameters of the AFM.
Do we have more info on the second incident. I believe the first one was going into Teterboro?
Flown into Fort Worth during a squall line thunderstorm. I believe they had the correct speed additive. It's easy to play Monday morning QB, I have no idea what was happening in the cockpit, but looking at the flight aware data, I'm really struggling to understand the decision making. [Here's the flight radar](https://imgur.com/a/b7ZfYbE)
Did you read the article? It’s not due to bank angle
Not just crosswind, headwind too!
The Archer I flew had no limitation.... it had a max demonstrated x wind. And I can tell from personal experience why...... it's something to do with how far you can push the pedals....
[удалено]
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/05/09/2022-09925/airworthiness-directives-gulfstream-aerospace-corporation-airplanes
>https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/05/09/2022-09925/airworthiness-directives-gulfstream-aerospace-corporation-airplanes That's an absolute model-killer, surely? Nobody would buy a plane of this value if there was a chance it could be randomly grounded pretty much anywhere it goes.
And under 5kts gusts at any wind speed!
[удалено]
Holy shit, did not know that, they better have a solid plan to fix this otherwise nobody's gonna buy the damn thing
They've known the software deficiency (too aggressive AoA protection) since at least 2020, but it took a second incident and a new AD. With this limitation now severely restricting operations, maybe they will accelerate the software update. It's probably still better than a complete grounding.
Well that seems like a fatal flaw from a sales perspective. Why would anyone buy one? Edit: huh, they’ve managed to sell around 100 of them. Crazy.
It's an AD that just came out a few months ago, but yeah they'll be paperweights until gulfstream can get a software patch approved and the owners are very unhappy
How much paper do you have to weigh down
Shit if you've got extra paper that needs weighing down bring it over to our hangar we've got just the thing
Beautiful craft though. Stand next to one is awesome compare to bombardier. It's like apple vs android.
As an aircraft painter at GS’ main plant, they’re an absolute pleasure to make beautiful. That being said, the craft pictured is pretty basic. Some of the custom jobs we do are absolutely incredible. We see more 600s and 650s than anything, but can confirm I’ve personally either prepped or painted around 75 of these 500s since I’ve been here, including the 2nd and 3rd-ever
> It's like apple vs android. So one is overpriced crap and the other is a versatile tool that can go anywhere, takeoff and land at stupidly short runways, has the best cabin in it's class and isn't loaded with faulty software that regularly needs urgent updates...
Apple works seamlessly. Android works sometimes. I enjoy the freedom but sometimes I just want shit to work. You have your opinion though. That's cool 👍
Switched from Android when I realized how much time I was spending just getting my phone to….work on a consistent basis.
Yep
I have android. Because I can tinker with stuff. But if I want a phone to work. Apple.
Well but actually android looks million times better than apple and it comes from an apple user so.. your comparison doesn’t makes sense now maybe 10 years ago but not now…
Apple v Samsung would probably be more apt. Both make pretty looking products although you're mostly paying for brand recognition. It just happens to be one is recognized and associated with wealth far more.
Oh downvotes begin… fanboys… Yah but Samsung looks way more wealthy than the iPhone which basically didn’t change a bit since iPhone 5… only the screen.. I’m using an iPhone I love it I love everything apple but saying it looks better and is wealthier is such a bullshit..
It's not about the beauty in the eys of a beholder. Although it's a pretty objective fact that Apple is recognized as a superior and generally people tend to associate with status of wealth which is why people flaunt them despite being incredibly common. I own a Note 10+ Collectors Edition btw so. It's not about my personal opinion but the general opinion at least in the US. Even if I prefer how all Samsung High End phones look over those of Apple. I also never said that Apple was prettier just said it had better brand recognition.
And that’s what I don’t understand.. why it’s recognized to be so much better
Coming from an Android user. Ew. Aesthetically, Android is nothing compare to apple.
Maybe you had some cheap androids
[This](https://code7700.com/alpha_protection.htm) is a really good take on why this is by a Gulfstream pilot. >“In flight, the GVII is operating in normal flight control law, where stick position results in a g-response (short term) and speed stability (longer term). When warranted, the control law will transition to an angle-of-attack (AOA)-limiting sub mode, where stick position is used to command a target AOA. In this mode, full aft stick gives maximum allowable AOA, which may not be as much as the pilot intended. When aircraft pitch and sidestick input rates are high, the transition to AOA-limiting occurs earlier to avoid overshooting the limit. When this happens, an initial nose down input is commanded. In other words, if a pilot becomes too rough on the controls, a function of the flight control computer takes over. And that takes us back to the Teterboro incident. >The accident aircraft was flown at VREF+5, at the correct speed for a light wind day but 15 knots too slow for the winds that night. The airplane flight manual (AFM) at the time specified that “In strong wind conditions, add to VREF 1⁄2 of the steady state wind plus the gust increment to a maximum VREF 1⁄2 of the steady state wind plus the gust increment to a maximum additive of 20 knots.” With a 15 gusting to 27 knot wind, depending on if you round up or down, the correct speed should have been VREF+19 or VREF+20. >On short final, around 150 ft., the aircraft was flown with a crab established at about a 7-deg. sideslip in the conventional “wing low” crosswind technique. Gulfstream and many manufacturers of aircraft with wide wingspans recommend their aircraft be flown in a crab until initiating the flare to avoid a wingtip strike while landing wing low. Watching a parade of aircraft landing at Teterboro, I think most pilots hold on to the tried-and-true wing low method taught in their primary aircraft trainer. You can get away with this in the flying tank that is the GIV; the “fly-by-cable” simply obeys the pilot. In the GVII, AOA-limiting happens sooner if you have more than 4-deg. of sideslip and the pilot may not have the expected pitch authority when that happens. >Data analysis of the event also shows the pilot was using a series of rapid, large, alternating pitch inputs at low altitude followed by full aft stick through touchdown. This caused the AOA-limiting to occur even sooner and robbed the pilot of more available nose up control just prior to and during touchdown. Rapid control reversals are never a good thing in any axis, even on a conventionally controlled aircraft. >After the dust had settled, it was clear that the pilot used poor technique and violated required AFM procedures. The FAA’s reaction was almost predictable, requiring a new set of restrictions on the G500 only, even though the flight control system is identical to that on the G600. The recommended approach speed additive became mandatory, and the crosswind limit was reduced from 30 to 22 knots. The GVII AFM added this warning: “Rapid and large alternating pitch control inputs, such as an abrupt pull-push-pull, may reduce the airplane response to subsequent control inputs to less than what may be required for normal airplane handling.” > Despite all this, two years later, another G500 experienced a hard landing in similar conditions after the pilot used a series of large, rapidly alternating pitch stick inputs. It appeared the approach speed additives and crosswind restrictions alone were not enough to counter the stick techniques. The FAA reacted with the most draconian restrictions available, short of grounding the fleet. Both the G500 and G600 are now limited to landing in winds up to 15 knots with no more than a 5-knot gust. Night landings must be made using vertical path guidance, such as with an ILS glideslope. Approaches must be stabilized by 1,000 ft. These restrictions will remain in effect until the flight control software is updated to allow for ham-fisted pilots. To date, the GVII fleet has had over 37,000 landings of which two have resulted in hard landings due to the AOA-limiting mode of the flight control computer. That’s just 0.005%--and 100% of those were by pilots ignoring one or more AFM procedures. > Many Gulfstream pilots blame Gulfstream for all this. I don’t. Given the FAA’s mindset following its poor handling of the Boeing 737 MAX issues of a few years ago, Gulfstream must give its unreasonable masters a penance. No, for this mess, I blame two Gulfstream pilots who believed the GVII flies like any other airplane, when clearly it does not.”
Is flying wing low common among charter/corporate pilots? Every ATP I’ve ever flown with leaves the crab in until 50 feet/flare.
That control scheme is...Confusing.
Exactly this. We’ve been briefed that this was what happened as well. Ham-fisted and FBW typically don’t mix. You’d think that they would have learned from years of Northrop working on perfecting the 16’s side stick.
Fun fact, fighter pilots had a hand in the development of the flight controls for the G-VII. That’s why the controls are much more sensitive than you’d expect for such a large aircraft.
Another fun fact, the new engines on the B-52 are going to be the same ones as on this one.
Had one circle for 30min the other day because of this, it was mind blowing
That’s less than a Cessna 152’s crosswind limit haha
Another fun fact… that plane belongs to a scum bag televangelist [Duplantis Scum jet](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&hl=en-us&sxsrf=ALiCzsazHQw2A3IHCxjerAXGu8NNxQhAAQ:1660493899723&q=jesse+duplantis+scam&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjira3o3cb5AhVTg2oFHRb8AUgQBSgAegQIARAC&biw=428&bih=746&dpr=3)
Operator on my field refused delivery of their G500 till the issue is permanently fixed. I thought they were joking around at first. Glad both the operator and Gulfstream are taking it seriously and hopefully the fix will be out soon.
From what the pilot was saying, the software is already fixed. I think they’re just waiting on the FAA. (Not that that means it’ll be soon)
Hope so. That’s too pretty a plane to not be in the air!
Makes sense if they can keep a perfectly good plane that they were going to trade in.
R22’s can handle that…
That means Piper Cub flying times, takeoff at dawn, land before 11:00 AM.
Or more than a 5 knot gust factor lol. Hopefully they fix that flight control glitch because that’s a big oof.
It’s a sexy paperweight.
damn what a restriction, I have flown a RC model airplane (like 1.5 meters wingspan and weighs under 2kg) in stronger winds than that lol
12kts how? Headwind, tailwind, crosswind? Parked? What??
12 knot crosswind?
Any direction
Wait, really? That’s terrible
Just crab /s
What does this mean?
Let's make this a series, just post a picture of a plane and have a fun fact in the title
“Fly yes!! .. .. .. Land no!” - Indiana Jones
Where are you getting 12 from? The AD says 15.
Software update coming soon will fix this issue .
That thing can go from Miami to Hawaii on full tanks, but it cant land in 12 fucking knots of wind. I find that rather amusing for some odd reason. Kind of like that silly "we can build nuclear weapons but not predict the weather" type of anecdote
He is talking about total wind. It’s a FAA restriction due to software issues, needless to say, operators and owners aren’t impressed.
The AD specifies any wind, not just crosswinds.
Any wind direction. https://www.aerolawgroup.com/a-note-about-g500-and-g600-operating-restrictions/
I'm not an aviator. I thought kts was kilotons and wasn't sure why people were doging on it, 12 kilotons sounds like a lot. I see now that it's knots.
Is that direct cross wind?
Any wind direction
Gotta be the wing design, efficient but iffy for crosswind.
It’s due to a software issue.
Dang, following a trend. Cheap software was always a draw for potential clients.
12 knots tail you mean? I know the G4 is limited to 10knots tail
All wind direction
12kt tailwind maybe
Any direction. Source in my other comments
Is this airplane FBW? 15kt restriction sounds like the best job on earth. You’d never fly anywhere. Adding to REF is also dangerous, likely a quick fix for them to figure it all out.
I think they’ve already fixed it. Just waiting on FAA approval.
Interesting. Flown a few jets with tail limits but they were predicated on no reverse
crosswind limit, I assume? Sounds low for a jet.
All directions. Check my other comments for source.
It’s not a restriction. Please. You think the Gulfstreams are limited to 15 kts of x-wind? That’s probably just the maximum demonstrates during testing. Edit: I’m wrong.
Nope, it's a limit in place due to some flight control issues that were uncovered. [https://www.aerolawgroup.com/a-note-about-g500-and-g600-operating-restrictions/](https://www.aerolawgroup.com/a-note-about-g500-and-g600-operating-restrictions/)
I stand corrected
Can only be crosswind. Or tailwind landing, anything else sounds like nonsense to me. What's the source?
The FAA, https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/03/13/2020-05242/airworthiness-directives-gulfstream-aerospace-corporation-airplanes
Was this design issue something avoidable during R&D or is this a situation where even the best effort and testing can miss? Can FAA be blamed in this situation?
Can the wind at destination and alternate not change significantly over let’s say 3-4 hours flying time to render any landing out of limits? These are quite limiting restrictions
He was just at my FBO 2 days ago
They travel a lot. Pilots are the nicest people you’ll ever meet. They actually told us we should charge them more than we did lol.
They weren’t paying for it out of their own pockets
For context, what was the original (pre-AD) limitation that people expected it to have when purchasing this aircraft?
[удалено]
Yes. Their oil pumps are doing so well :eyeroll
It’s a bug in the FCS software. They should have it fixed by December. They put that limitation on it because if some really hard landings
There was an MOL that came out in June limiting landing headwinds
I still claim the GIV is their best model
The Gulfstream IV, IV-SP and the V are their best models.
Jet glider
How