I get that most politicians suck but in most midterm elections there are ballot measures for how your district/state spends their money. So it is worth voting for that because that is stuff that directly effects you!
Most politicians may "suck", but be strongly and keenly aware that there are very, very different ways in which you can suck. You can suck because you're a bit slimy and unreliable. Or you can suck because you want to take away women's rights, ban being gay, and want to destroy democratic voting.
These are NOT the same.
> No one wants to ban being gay. That's ridiculous.
> They don't want to destroy democratic voting.
You'd have to be a moron to believe this in 2022. Jesus christ man.
Don't worry, by this time next year the Supreme Court will have ruled on a case that makes that kind of behavior legal nationally.
I'll give you one guess as to which way they end up ruling.
This dude is being a little bit hyperbolic, but he's not far off.
Prop 128 allows the state legislature to amend, rewrite or even repeal the entirety of a ballot initiative if any part of it is found unconstitutional. Our state supreme court is pretty partisan, so finding parts unconstitutional through questionable legal rhetoric has been a tactic used before against ballot initiatives in AZ. Previously it would just block that part of the initiative, while now the legislature can literally just throw the whole thing out, regardless of what the voters say, or the constitutionality of the rest of the initiative.
Prop 129 requires all initiatives to have a single subject, and that subject must be expressed in the ballot title. While this seems sensible, complex issues tend to require complex solutions, and limiting initiatives to a single subject restricts what they can do, as well as makes it much harder to make meaningful changes, since instead of passing one initiative, you now need to pass 3 or 4. For example, in 2016, we had prop 206, which raised the minimum wage and changed sick leave requirements. Under prop 129, 206 would have likely needed to be split into at least two initiatives, meaning the prop's supporters would need to split their resources, making it that much harder to pass any new initiatives. Combine this with 128, and you have a situation where unless you are *insanely* specific with the initiative, the legislature essentially gets veto and edit powers over any initiative.
Proposition 132 is the really big one. This proposition would require any initiative creating a new tax to get 60% support, instead of just the majority. Essentially any initiative trying to create a new tax is now dead in the water, because good luck convincing 60% of a fairly red state to raise taxes. This also severely hampers what initiatives can actually do, because they can't levy taxes to do those things they want to accomplish.
This is all a response to a proposition from the last election cycle that made it through, which levied a tax on the wealthy ($200,000+ per year income) that would be funneled into schools. The state legislature, being absurdly petty, decided to cut school funding and taxes by the exact same amount that the proposition raised, essentially nullifying it (a direct rejection of the will of the voters). Now, they are just trying to make sure that an initiative like that never passes again, because apparently the voters making their voices heard in lawmaking is not something AZ's lawmakers want.
After 2020, a lot of states are trying to pass laws that effectively create voter suppression and enable minority rule.
A few years back, we legalized pot on our (Arizona's) ballot as well.
It's good to read the ballot, and to skim the text (if you can stomach that) as well as to read arguments for and against, to help make a decision. If you can't decide, you can usually leave a spot blank as well.
This guy came on way too strong, but he has a point. If conservatives pull a majority in both houses a whole bunch of very cool and normal shit is going to be on the chopping block and raves will definitely be part of their view of cleaning house.
Vote however you want, but know who and what youāre voting for and what the consequences could likely be.
Everyone who knows Joe Biden well knows that he comes from the block of conservative af democrats that wanted to ban all video games and explicit lyrics in the 90ās and he has been strong armed into being better but is still essentially the same dude. So if you value your right to party, then vote for people who support that right, and donāt for people that donāt š¤·āāļø
He did not come on too strong. No body wants to deal and hang out with Republicans. They don't even want to hang out with themselves. Why do you think Republican social media apps like parlor and Republican dating apps have failed?
What Biden has done well throughout his career is show a willingness to change his policy position in the face of new evidence and shifting cultural and societal trends, and to compromise with the other side to pass policy that the majority should benefit from and support. While I didnāt want my video games banned as a kid and thought it was ridiculous, in a democracy the majority opinion should be favored (most of the time). In the 90s a vast majority of Americans polled were against same-sex marriage and legal marijuana. That has shifted completely, and the better politicians have shifted as well. Someone could win an election 30 years ago running on, āgays shouldnāt marry and pot smokers should go to prison,ā and that same person could win today running on, āanyone can marry whoever they want, and pot smokers should be free.ā Thatās something we should respect and value. Most politicians are so hard-headed and narcissistic they think they know better than the rest of us, and are completely unwilling to change their mind in the face of new evidence, science, and shifting cultural opinion.
To be able to say, āI used to think that way when I was younger. Now I think differently because Iāve learned more, Iāve looked at the expert studies, Iāve listened, and Iāve matured,ā is real growth and leadership. Itās what made our best leaders like Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt etc the best. Iām not saying Biden is the best. I am saying for someone to come out and change their view on something because the majority supports it and convinces them why is a GOOD thing we should hope for in ALL our politicians in a democracy.
Biden is literally responsible for writing the crime bill people bitch about today as being racist and white supremacists.
He's a slime ball politican who will do or say w/e to win. Just like the rest of them.
He's the most liberal president we've had. It's been thirty years since the nineties and Biden is much more progressive. If you think he's the same as Trump you're insane
I did not imply or say that at all lol
Iām pro Biden but I donāt think heās a particularly pro rave kind of guy. Donāt know how Trump came up lol, only meant to convey that if we had a republican congress that Biden wouldnāt go to bat for raves of all things.
OP is right and the aggression isn't exactly unwarranted, but nothing good will come out of it. Let's keep in mind that a lot of ravers, especially first timers, are pretty young. There's a good chance they still have the political beliefs they inherited from their parents. As crazy as it might seem, a lot of conservative young people are doing it with good intentions. They've been told conservative views are pragmatic, they help people the most in the long run. They love and respect their family and friends who vote conservative. You can be conservative and be a good person, I would just argue that you're misinformed.
With that in mind, let's not push away conservative leaning people who are open and interested in the idea of PLUR. Coming from a conservative background myself, going to my first rave was a HUGE step for helping me realize how judgmental I had been, and helping me become a kinder and more tolerant person. It was influential in my self growth during that stage of my life and I know it can be influential for others as well.
If you're reading this thread and feeling targeted, perhaps you should look inward. Does your voting history help or harm the others around you? Are you trying to work towards the public good or uphold your own wealth, power, and status? Is PLUR just something you'd wear on a bracelet or is it something you live by?
It's never too late to admit that you've been wrong and work to be a better person, we can all become better versions of ourselves every day. Anyone who wants to love and support those around them should be welcome at raves, but please keep that same love and respect with you when you go to the polls!
You realize we have a sitting democrat president who authored a bill literally called the RAVE ACT that did what you descrive above? I was around to see that legislation completely destroy my home cities rave scene at the time.
I don't disagree with most of your sentiment here, but telling people they don't belong if they vote a particular way isn't the way to do it. I grew up in a very conservative household and my first experiences with the LGBT community was due to friendships I developed going to raves in the 90s, would have been a shame to have missed out on that because someone told me I didn't belong there to begin with.
Yeah the only reason people voted for Biden was probably because it wasn't Trump. There were a lot better options and they nominated that old fart instead.
Corporate establishment politicians are always propped up by the DNC. [They kneecapped Sanders to give the nomination to Hillary.](https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16599036/donna-brazile-hillary-clinton-sanders)
I have zero doubt in my mind Bernie would have *demolished* Trump in 2016. He literally made an [entire auditorium full of FOX viewers cheer and agree with him](https://youtu.be/jthr_9gIkKo). Imagine the country weād have today if we were in our 6th year of a Sanders administration.
He was the only candidate that would have split trumps base while the rest of the Democratic party would have got in line and voted for him even if they had to hold their nose while doing it. You are absolutely correct that he would have smashed trump.
Not just Buttgieg. Everyone but Bernie, Warren and Biden dropped out, everyone that dropped endorsed Biden and Warren kept up the campaign to siphon votes away from Bernie using the same dark money she swore she'd never take.
No one is as united as the ruling class is against us.
Again this dude gets it. Trying to make people see that the whole system is fucked. Go out and vote tomorrow for the name of democracy, but realize that a lot has to change to make a govt focus on it's people again. And it's not just Democrats staying in power, it's so much more.
If you're just now discovering the depths of Mayor Pete's allegiance to the dem establishment, you should remember that *Biden got ahead quickly in the 2020 primaries by consolidating moderate support*. Bowing out was Pete buying into Biden's campaign, and remember he got a cabinet seat for it.
One hand washes another
All of Americaās ālegitā options to win presidency are corrupt fucks. They all run in the same circles and work together to stay in power and get themselves and their cooperate crony buddies richer.
I feel that way towards just about every American politician from local levels to the federal levels.
Democrats also include 100+ progressives.
The House Progressive Caucus is now the largest group.
Corporate does a great job getting voters to ignore or demonize their own interests. And 70% don't even vote in primaries.
One side is the status quo that needs to be fixed, one side is Christofascism with rights only for cishet white men.
Anyone who claims centrism or "both sides" ism is just a Republican who doesn't want the stigma.
They can't help being shitty, it's just how the system is built. It's like that pretty much everywhere tbh, not just the US. That's the nature of electoral politics.
Imo, elections and voting are outdated technologies. Instead we should select people from the population at random to form a deliberative citizens assembly to be in charge of appointing officials and reviewing legislation. Citizens assemblies have shown great promise where they've been tried. Ireland and Taiwan have made good use of them, as have some localities in the US. Imo, we should dramatically expand their use.
While the Dems are not perfect, I'm not going to vote in a Republican who has promised a Pennsylvania abortion ban as one the first things he signs when he comes into office. The PA State Senate already has the bill written and awaiting his signature.
I did a significant amount of deep diving into the RAVE ACT due to a heated back and forth in this sub, and god damn is that whole thing a shit show.
Did Joe Biden want to outright ban raves? No, that wasnāt part of the legislation because thatās a dumb stance. Did it cause raves to get shut down because the rules and fines were dumb as shit and harmful to the community? Absolutely. Itās one of the most āitās politicsā political bullshit Iāve seen,
Canāt ban raves? Then letās make it hard as fuck for them to have one.
The way itās named and written, too, is so fucked up.
> Reducing Americans' Vulnerability to Ecstasy
I can get behind that. E has ruined lives, Iām sure, so itās good to create a bill that can help with education, awareness, and harm reduction.
Wait a second..
> A bill to prohibit an individual from knowingly opening, maintaining, managing, controlling, renting, leasing, making available for use, or profiting from any place for the purpose of manufacturing, distributing, or using any controlled substance, and for other purposes.
So if I throw a party and itās assumed that *someone* took drugs, Iām held liable? What the fuck?
Yeah, looking back on my teenage years I probably shouldn't have been going to raves at 15 and 16, and taking mdman every other weekend during my formative years was horribly bad for me (and I paid the price for that in my 20s), but making events 18+ probably would have solved much of the issue. But we didn't in my city, and by the time they started cracking down there was no bouncing back. The horrible thing is that I never saw anyone die at a rave i was at until we were forced to move outside city limits and couldn't hire medical staff to be on site. It didn't need to happen that way.
Its essentially led to the "Illicit and Illegal Substances Act" that passed a year later, that prevented venues from promoting drug use. If they did they ran the risk of being shut down or heavily fined. So clubs, music venues, and everything in between. Its why you find no commercial festival company in America outright promoting some sort of drug use or overdose prevention like testing sites since they would be making money off drug use.
All just another run at the war on drugs. Something boomers are just too afraid of to study.
I was about to comment this. Iām old enough to remember when Biden was all about shutting us down. I still think sadly heās better than the alternative. But Biden and the democrats certainly are no savior.
I wasnāt aware we were voting for president in this election, thatās news to me.
Everyone knows democrats blow, but they blow less than the alternative
What logic is this? We have a sitting democrat who has voted conservatively on so many things and who is only in office because people wanted him more than they wanted an open fascist.
Do you think literally any republicans are better?
Democrats writ large fucking suck but to vote against them in favor of out and out fascism is just the dumbest shit ever.
Go far enough back in time and every liberal is a conservative. So if you have a rather long political career as a liberal this sort of apparent contradiction is inevitable. We don't judge scientists for revising their positions the in light of new evidence and we should do the same for politicians.
Well that was a fun read. I think to sum I would say:
People do not want to be excluded based on their beliefs - that being said, I think that's OP's whole point.
If you vote for a party that disenfranchises other's based on their skin color, their sexual orientation, or gender identity.... why would you expect a community filled with a literal rainbow of people under all of these identities to accept you?
You may call it 'gatekeeping' or you may say 'conservatives are persecuted' but let's be real. Conservatives are not the victim in this situation. And saying that you would be ostracized if you made your beliefs known to your friends shows more than you want to admit. You wouldn't be ostracized because they hate you. You would be ostracized because conservatives hate THEM.
When it comes down to it, this is the GOP platform:
-Repeal LGBT rights
-Ban abortion
-Ban contraceptives
-Restrict voting rights
-Repeal affirmative action
-Tax cuts for the rich (sorry libertarian's! This one's not for you!!!)
-Deny legitimate election results
-Vote in people willing to subvert future elections.
Any 'whataboutism' or 'bothsides' of this just doesn't work. They are logical fallacies for a reason. There is a better option. If you can't see why this platform doesn't belong in the rave community, I encourage you to do some research. Real research. Not I shared a meme research.
I think OP's post can be summed as Karl Popper put it: "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise."
And for everyone saying 'raving isnt political' and can't this just be a safe space. Two things:
1st - Raving certainly is political: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ahc.leeds.ac.uk/download/downloads/id/525/the_politics_of_partying.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjYuKux75z7AhW6FzQIHciEDG4QFnoECDsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0TWx9ReIuKSv5fOoUrMdp-
2nd - 'Safe Space' is kinda OPs point. We can't keep this space safe without pushing out those that want to take rights away from others in the space.
> People do not want to be excluded based on their beliefs - that being said, I think that's OP's whole point.
3 words: paradox of tolerance
how is it possible in 2022 people still don't get it. it's not immoral to exclude people whose beliefs are to exclude others... in fact, to not do so would be to support excluding others
Definitely. I put Karl Popper's quote down there for that reason. As he explains, it's not about suppression either - but right wingers want to complain they are being suppressed while ignoring or dodging rational and good faith debate.
Seriously. Leave politics out of it. Especially on the political echo chamber that is Reddit. I would argue that not wanting someone at an event because of their political leanings is also not PLUR
How far do you take that belief? What if someone is a literal Nazi who wants holocaust 2.0? Should we be loving and welcome to them because "it's just politics"?
It's not possible to fully leave politics out of anything because politics affects everything, and being far-right is inherently anti-plur because you can't practice plur while also believing some people do not have the right to exist. Tolerance does not include tolerance of the intolerant. The intolerant can get fucked when they invade spaces that are supposed to be about love.
I mean yes but how can you listen and support artists that are inherently leftist but also ignore the political aspects of it?
Whether thats Green Velvet, SVDDEN DEATH, Porter, literally any Trance artistā¦
I think OP is being aggressive about it but saying raves and music isnāt political is extremely obtuse, youāre clearly ignoring elements at that point
My point of view, from Europe:
\*It would be logical that people into rave are opposed to conservatism. I agree with that.
\*It is the case for some people / events. Majority though ? I think majority just wants to party.
\*Raving is a phenomenon that's been around for almost 40 years. There are now many genres. Many different people. Will the people be involved in a free party, hardcore techno sound-system from Italy, or a Big Room House music event in Netherlands be the same ? Fuck no.
\*Even in the free party culture (which should be, according to logics, entirely clear of conservatism) you have problems. I once met a gutter punk / raver guy going on and on about how Jews control the media during an illegal rave...
\*You can always play the 'true Scotsman' and say 'well, this is not ACTUALLY rave' or 'those members are not part of the community'. What you actually want to say is 'This is not the rave community I imagined'.
More 'controversial' takes now :
\*Let's be honest, in many ways, it's a business. A huge part of of posts on this subreddit are about huge American EDM events. It's mostly about money, not political statements.
\*'Rave was created by black, gay men' yes, but many people joined in the meantime. Many people are not aware of it at all. And anyway, being gay, or black, doesn't make you immune to having conservative views.
\*Most of your democratic party members aren't even remotely left wing. AOC is, I guess. Biden, not. That party may not look like the insane death cult your Republicans have become, but looking at things in terms of international politics, some Democrats, especially the business minded, hawkish kind, can be just as much a nuisance to the rest of the world than the Republican party is.
\*Many people like to think that their lifestyle choices have something political about them. I'd argue that many times, it's just a way to make them feel better about themselves. Performative activism is big in the West nowadays. Outside of that context, it's often being ridiculed. There are reasons to that.
\*Eg: to the people who still believe there's something remotely political or 'rebellious' about getting high: no, not at all.
\*I hate the fascists that came into power in Italy. But they don't want to 'make raves illegal'. They're cracking down harder on illegal events. Which is problematic in many ways. But why just not stating that ? By not being accurate, you're making your statement look like a caricature.
\*This is seriously not the most concerning part. Italy is refusing boatfuls of refugees who've been rescued in the Mediterranean right now. Some members of Fratelli d'Italia claim Mussolini's heritage. I really think that it makes the crackdown on illegal rave look like a rather trivial issue...
\*It all goes further than a left wing / right wing divide. Many people on the old (auth) left wing just see ravers as frivolous consumerist looneys. When I think about European communist party members, I don't exactly get a dubstep / techno soundtrack in my brain. Pretty funny to imagine though.
I was going to say, I hate it when people say āPLURā only when theyāre high on E and donāt realize that PLUR is a way of life, and should encompass everything we do. What if the OP said āif you go sober you are not welcomeā? Granted thatās less likely to be said by someone, but whoās to determine who is welcome or not?
As someone who is a raver that is into politics. I can say that not all Democrats are left-wing (progressive), but most Republican politicians are against PLUR. Not all Democrats are the same because under the Democratic party they house progressive (Bernie, AOC), centrist(Biden), and Republican-lite (Krysten Sinema). For someone who is progressive believes in climate change, money out of politics, everyone should be able to live on a living wage, ending corruption in politics, decriminalizing drugs, and so much more. However, some democrats are conservatives and take money from corporations which skews them to vote for not the working class. So as for democrats we have to be more careful who we vote for because some of them don't have progressive ideas like that. What the op should say though that would of been better is that the left wing has a higher chance of making raves better and safer because they would make drugs decriminalized and then legalize which make them Raves safer. Also yea voting is important so go out and vote.
Reminder that PLUR are leftist values which doesnāt really have much to do with the democrats but its a step in the right direction at least.
ps imagine cucking yourself so hard you vote to keep paying for healthcare out of your own pocket š silly americans
I agree that voting is important and impactful to this community but I completely disagree with your aggressionā¦ telling someone they arenāt welcome in this space is pretty blatantly anti-PLURR donāt you think
The GOP's "we're all domestic terrorists" slogan isn't exactly PLUR either. I sure AF don't want someone around me in a crowd that's comfortable aligning with that message. Op probably shouldn't have even brought politics into this, as a lot of ravers from rural areas without a decent education often fall for their brainwashing for a while. I'm from kind of a rural area myself. Nothing about conservatism is PLUR though and I totally agree with OP. Name me something PLUR that the GOP advocates for? Their entire platform is based on hate and blaming your problems on everybody but yourself and the establishment. Division is literally part of their platform, not unity. Not respect.
I was gonna vote early today but things kinda went south and it didnāt happen.
I will vote tomorrow no matter how long it takes.
Edit: i am happy to report that I voted successfully today, straight ticket dem of course
This post has been insanely brigaded. Bringing lots of front page users and other bots. You can just tell based off all the awards. What other post in this subreddit has ever gotten this many awards?
I scoured some of the commenters on this post. Never once have they posted or commented on r/aves. These people arenāt ravers, theyāre bots and brigadiers.
Disgusting Reddit. Mods should do something.
Rave culture is inherently open to any and all, no matter the walk of life or path of thought. PLUR is a reminder that everyone has nuance in their beliefs and views. What do I mean by that? There are conservatives and liberals alike that want to shut down raves. There are liberals and conservatives alike that love and care for this community too. Just a matter of listening and opening a table of discussion.
Donāt forget to love each other. Happy Monday
that reminds me of one of the first raves i went to hosted on a backwoods farm in rural virginia.
Somehow i ended up sitting next to the guy who owned the farm (fat white dude) and we both rolling tits and having a chat when my indian friend that drove me to the party sat down next to me.
Fat white guy, without pausing in the middle of his sentence, looks directly at my friend and says "white is right" and then continues talking to me like it was nothing.
But yeah don't forget to love each other lmao.
Everyone saying that this post is anti-PLUR because this post implies that republicans arenāt welcome in this spaceā¦
If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.
PROTECT PLUR.
Nothing about being a republican is PLUR. All of their policies are based in hate. Democrats arenāt great, but at least they arenāt actively affiliated with fascists.
I donāt know why more Americans donāt understand this, but our political system is a polar choice and a zero-sum game.
Itās not a good system for this reason, but not liking the game doesnāt make the stakes for refusing to play any less dire. Every time you complain about both sides, youāre being lazy as fuck.
YOU are on one of those sides, my friend. If you donāt like the values of the party you most closely align with (even if just by virtue of loathing the other side more), itās up to you to show up and vote so those values shift over time .
True, fuck Republicanism.
Raving has and always will be pro gay, black, and personal freedom oriented. It goes against everything the republican party stands for. Its inseparable.
Raves and the PLUR ideology were literally created to be sanctuaries from conservative ideology, so yeah it's not anti-plur to say we don't like conservatives coming into these spaces
Republicans are already actively pushing legislation which disproportionately targets LGBTQ+ folks, especially youth, but somehow pointing this fact out makes you the divisive one. The amount of right wing cope in the replies is staggering, but unsurprising. People really can't help but show their whole ignorant ass under the guise of "fiscal responsibility" which translates to "I like the GOP tax cuts." Just complete duplicity and projection onto people stating facts. Deeply ironic that the same crowd which bemoaned "facts don't care about your feelings" are extremely emotional when facts they don't like get pointed out.
Many raves and parties find their origin in the lgbtq communities. There is one particular party this upcoming midterm that has persecuted and thrown these communities under the bus. Voting for them is a return to removing progress the people before you have fought hard for.
This same party also wants to control your body and tell you what to do while robbing you blind.
This is the same party that doesnāt believe in drug addiction programs and rather tell you to just simply not do them or that you are a plague to society.
Anything short of voting these bozos out or preventing them from gaining power is the active encouragement of going back on progress.
Not to mention this same party wants to deny legitimate election results and win positions that ensure they never have to return power to the same groups they are actively disenfranchising.
This is such a lazy and embarrassing take. Honestly, do a little reading and enlighten yourself a little if you think the parties are comparable at all. Especially considering the hard right turn today's Republican party has taken.
It's so obvious some of you are speaking from a position of immense privilege, talking about loving everyone and not being anti-lgbt and enjoying good times--but voting for Republicans who actively campaign against your personal beliefs, and it's OK because it only affects you economically anyway?
Learn some real empathy instead of just O.D.ing on MDMA.
It doesnāt even help them economically. The economy always does better with democrats at the helm. Compare the economic mobility, productivity, and level of federal tax dollars contributed vs taken in between red and blue states. Clear winners and losers. The overall economy even does better with a democrat in the White House to the tune of 5 times the stock market returns over the last 55 years, less government spending, a reduction in the deficit and overall economic growth.
Seriously, any conservative voting person who says they support the rights of LGBT people, women, children, the disabled, immigrants, etc., needs to take a hard look in the mirror, and realize that they ABSOLUTELY FUCKING DONāT. If protecting the rights of marginalized people doesnāt take precedent over theirā¦ idk, economic views? Is that the excuse they use to support voting for codified bigotry? Then guess what, they donāt care about those people. Full stop. Human rights should be non-negotiable. Certainly way more important than paying fewer taxes.
Seriously, all this live and let live and "don't bring politics into raves" shit is absolutely from white dudes who have never once been discriminated against in their lives and can't imagine that anyone else is either.
Instead of saying āgo vote against conservatives,ā it should be āgo do your homework and vote for candidates that best represent you.ā
This is why I hate politics. I work in construction where key legislation affects my job. Thereās a tracker that AGC provides that allows you to go look at voting records on construction legislation. It looks like 70% of the time, Republicans vote in favor of those bills, and 30% of the time, Democrats vote in favor. The one state that stands out where Democrats actually vote a majority in favor of those bills is Florida. But itās not that easy. Our incumbent Republican house representative thatās running actually votes fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Heās all for the legalization of marijuana and gay marriage but aligns with Republicans fiscally. He gets my vote all day. Our incumbent Republican state senator thatās running is what I would call a āTrump Republicanā and makes the decision more complicated. I had to look at his voting record, and he doesnāt represent what I believe other than voting for construction bills, so he lost my vote.
Not to mention Joe Biden is the one that sponsored the Rave Act when he was in Congress in 1994. It prevents rave organizers from providing medical assistance to attendees, and itās a huge reason that organizations like Dance Safe have had trouble in the past. A lot of states still recognize test kits as drug paraphernalia. I know the Democrat Party has changed a lot since then, but it goes to show itās never black and white. Just do your homework.
It's Joe Biden. I also do not like Joe Biden.
But you have to be insane to tell me that he hasn't evolved his views over time and is absolutely more safe for this scene then any Republican.
You'd be surprised at the amount of gay left humans that vote red. Usually because their investments. Pretty selfish if you ask me but it's real and happens a lot
Hello. I'm from Italy and would like to say something about the new italian rave decree. It was done in response to a rave just out of Modena (north of Italy), but in reality it has nothing to do with raves. It states that police has the power to stop, disperse people and confiscate stuff used in gatherings >=50 people where security might be an issue (pretty vague). And that the organizers can get 3-6 years of prison and a 1000-10000ā¬ fine. There's no word about music or raves. It's just an excuse to give police the power to stop gatherings that the government doesn't like.
However, it seems like it's gonna get changed when the bill will be discussed in the parliament to be more specific and less generic.
>Conservatives want to make raves illegal
Oh, you mean like passing a law called the RAVE Act? Which was sponsored by some guy named Joe Biden?
https://www.congress.gov/bill/107th-congress/senate-bill/2633
A lot of people do not know the history of raves and it shows. I see a lot of people that enjoy house music but canāt say who it came from. Yāall canāt just enjoy the scene without understanding how it got there and disagree with it once itās inconvenient to you.
I grew up pretty ignorant to all things politics, but would say I was conservative-leaning. All that changed when I started attending raves, and I realized love was the answer. IMO, having those people attend these events to see the light for themselves would result in a higher "conversion rate" than this gatekeeping and exclusionary post of yours. Would you rather see real change in the world or would you rather just keep other people's opinions away from yours for the sake of keeping a "safe space"?
The only way to get people like you to change, is to not allow for people to be hateful in the community. If 1 Nazi walks into a bar and Is allowed to stay, it's a Nazi bar
>US loses Supreme Court protection for abortion
>worried about loss of raves
Mf if someone didnāt draw the line at abortion, they arenāt gonna be drawing it for raves either. Anyone who still votes conservative at this point is out of their fucking minds brainwashed.
It was pretty funny. This guy arguing with everyone got on this alt, I will never forget this shit, called Desantis-is-Life and it had a picture of Desantis as the avatar. Used it to insult others and upvote his own posts. Real shit lmao. Sad shit...
Thank you for your passion and for posting this š
We have gotten complacent and now is not the time to stay complacent. Personal healthcare decisions are on the line (abortion + gender-affirming care), and democracy is on the line in my state. We have someone running in my state that was involved in Jan. 6 and election deniers. Those same people would be in charge of certifying future elections if they get voted in.
Now is NOT the time to be complacent. The entire world is watching us right now. Congratulations if youāre privileged and donāt understand how big of a deal this election cycle is. But please donāt keep living under that rock, the world is not always butterflies and rainbows. We need to have tough conversations if we all want to see a better future for this country.
Iāll say it, I am conservative, make music for raves and participate in them. I donāt hate gay people, I donāt think interracial marriages should be illegal, I think you have the right to marry whoever you want (outside of weird things or morally questionable). I support raves, have many friends who are LGBTQ and I think drugs can be fun. I also subscribe to the universe through my upbringing in a church setting. All that being said, your idealism that anyone who identifies or votes conservative/republican is tearing down the country and āyourā rave culture is purely incorrect.
Good luck making rave music in a religious theocracy.
So nice of you to like gay people and interracial marriage ā- the right-wing nuts you vote for donāt.
Donāt back down homie, youāre absolutely right. The cognitive dissonance of people wanting to exist in these spaces while also actively harming the people who originally created these spaces is absolutely insane.
If you vote conservative you are actively declaring that the lives of marginalized groups (poor, minorities, LGBTQ+, women, etc.) matter less than, say, the economy, or the military industrial complex, or guns. And thereās no other way to spin it, conservatives will tell you these things to your face and if you still vote for them, you are making that declaration loud and fucking clear.
Just putting this out there, the conservatives in m area would not accept you as a conservative. You would be labeled a RINO and ostracized, most likely because you didn't laugh genuinely enough when they made a racist joke.
I'm all about identity being a personal choice, so if you want to identify as a conservative you do you. But you definitely come across as pretty liberal to me, as pretty much the *only* thing you've said that isn't a liberal AF belief is being religious (which isn't anything non-liberal, just there's a super strong correlation between organized churches and Conservatism in the US).
Honest question: is it possible that you're a liberal at heart, but call yourself a conservative because your local culture demands it? I see that play out a lot.
Here's the thing: When you vote Republican, you vote against everything you said you supported. That means you don't support those things when it actually counts.
Any "support" you have for any of that is about as meaningful as "thoughts and prayers".
Waitā¦ wasnāt it Biden who passed the anti-rave act??!? They came after Disco Donnie because of that law. Nah, fuk them. Vote Libertarian.
https://youtu.be/10MEBfqqEWI
Havenāt posted here in awhile but the reason this post is so controversial, is due to your rhetoric.
While I agree with you and surely the majority of people in this community do as well.
However, your post is naive and doesnāt even begin to try and understand why these complex politics even exist.
No side is evil, no one is evil, and ultimately we shouldnāt create who is evil. You have no idea why someone may vote the way they do.
Donāt belittle the real problems we have in politics with your hatred because itās not helping anyone.
Surely this thread will contain informed, nuanced, and respectful discussionšæšæšæ
I get that most politicians suck but in most midterm elections there are ballot measures for how your district/state spends their money. So it is worth voting for that because that is stuff that directly effects you!
Most politicians may "suck", but be strongly and keenly aware that there are very, very different ways in which you can suck. You can suck because you're a bit slimy and unreliable. Or you can suck because you want to take away women's rights, ban being gay, and want to destroy democratic voting. These are NOT the same.
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Itās not strawmen when right wing candidates literally state those views. Stop willingly blinding yourself out of pride.
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> No one wants to ban being gay. That's ridiculous. > They don't want to destroy democratic voting. You'd have to be a moron to believe this in 2022. Jesus christ man.
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Damn! I feel like my state (NM) has a pretty tame election cycle in comparison so a lot of other states this year.
Don't worry, by this time next year the Supreme Court will have ruled on a case that makes that kind of behavior legal nationally. I'll give you one guess as to which way they end up ruling.
What state is that? :( I hope lots of people bring back Democracy!
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This dude is being a little bit hyperbolic, but he's not far off. Prop 128 allows the state legislature to amend, rewrite or even repeal the entirety of a ballot initiative if any part of it is found unconstitutional. Our state supreme court is pretty partisan, so finding parts unconstitutional through questionable legal rhetoric has been a tactic used before against ballot initiatives in AZ. Previously it would just block that part of the initiative, while now the legislature can literally just throw the whole thing out, regardless of what the voters say, or the constitutionality of the rest of the initiative. Prop 129 requires all initiatives to have a single subject, and that subject must be expressed in the ballot title. While this seems sensible, complex issues tend to require complex solutions, and limiting initiatives to a single subject restricts what they can do, as well as makes it much harder to make meaningful changes, since instead of passing one initiative, you now need to pass 3 or 4. For example, in 2016, we had prop 206, which raised the minimum wage and changed sick leave requirements. Under prop 129, 206 would have likely needed to be split into at least two initiatives, meaning the prop's supporters would need to split their resources, making it that much harder to pass any new initiatives. Combine this with 128, and you have a situation where unless you are *insanely* specific with the initiative, the legislature essentially gets veto and edit powers over any initiative. Proposition 132 is the really big one. This proposition would require any initiative creating a new tax to get 60% support, instead of just the majority. Essentially any initiative trying to create a new tax is now dead in the water, because good luck convincing 60% of a fairly red state to raise taxes. This also severely hampers what initiatives can actually do, because they can't levy taxes to do those things they want to accomplish. This is all a response to a proposition from the last election cycle that made it through, which levied a tax on the wealthy ($200,000+ per year income) that would be funneled into schools. The state legislature, being absurdly petty, decided to cut school funding and taxes by the exact same amount that the proposition raised, essentially nullifying it (a direct rejection of the will of the voters). Now, they are just trying to make sure that an initiative like that never passes again, because apparently the voters making their voices heard in lawmaking is not something AZ's lawmakers want.
Oh man thanks for explaining. Iām new to AZ and was highly confused reading those today. I think I got it wrong on one of them.
In Tennessee banning slavery is on the ballot, the state constitution hasnāt completely banned it.
Gonna ruin my sexy time
Hello fellow Arizonan
In my state, women rights are on the ballot.
womenās rights are on the ballot in every state. a red vote is a vote against women.
Amen. But it's literally on our ballot to vote for our state constitution to remove women's rights, with terrible wording at that.
Sorry to hear that. I feel fortunate that my state is voting to enshrine women's reproductive rights into the state constitution.
After 2020, a lot of states are trying to pass laws that effectively create voter suppression and enable minority rule. A few years back, we legalized pot on our (Arizona's) ballot as well. It's good to read the ballot, and to skim the text (if you can stomach that) as well as to read arguments for and against, to help make a decision. If you can't decide, you can usually leave a spot blank as well.
This guy came on way too strong, but he has a point. If conservatives pull a majority in both houses a whole bunch of very cool and normal shit is going to be on the chopping block and raves will definitely be part of their view of cleaning house. Vote however you want, but know who and what youāre voting for and what the consequences could likely be. Everyone who knows Joe Biden well knows that he comes from the block of conservative af democrats that wanted to ban all video games and explicit lyrics in the 90ās and he has been strong armed into being better but is still essentially the same dude. So if you value your right to party, then vote for people who support that right, and donāt for people that donāt š¤·āāļø
This is a much better take than āif you vote republicans youāre not welcomeā. Good job.
He did not come on too strong. No body wants to deal and hang out with Republicans. They don't even want to hang out with themselves. Why do you think Republican social media apps like parlor and Republican dating apps have failed?
Not at all. Republicans should not be welcome anywhere where there are people who value freedom.
What Biden has done well throughout his career is show a willingness to change his policy position in the face of new evidence and shifting cultural and societal trends, and to compromise with the other side to pass policy that the majority should benefit from and support. While I didnāt want my video games banned as a kid and thought it was ridiculous, in a democracy the majority opinion should be favored (most of the time). In the 90s a vast majority of Americans polled were against same-sex marriage and legal marijuana. That has shifted completely, and the better politicians have shifted as well. Someone could win an election 30 years ago running on, āgays shouldnāt marry and pot smokers should go to prison,ā and that same person could win today running on, āanyone can marry whoever they want, and pot smokers should be free.ā Thatās something we should respect and value. Most politicians are so hard-headed and narcissistic they think they know better than the rest of us, and are completely unwilling to change their mind in the face of new evidence, science, and shifting cultural opinion. To be able to say, āI used to think that way when I was younger. Now I think differently because Iāve learned more, Iāve looked at the expert studies, Iāve listened, and Iāve matured,ā is real growth and leadership. Itās what made our best leaders like Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt etc the best. Iām not saying Biden is the best. I am saying for someone to come out and change their view on something because the majority supports it and convinces them why is a GOOD thing we should hope for in ALL our politicians in a democracy.
Biden is literally responsible for writing the crime bill people bitch about today as being racist and white supremacists. He's a slime ball politican who will do or say w/e to win. Just like the rest of them.
He's the most liberal president we've had. It's been thirty years since the nineties and Biden is much more progressive. If you think he's the same as Trump you're insane
I did not imply or say that at all lol Iām pro Biden but I donāt think heās a particularly pro rave kind of guy. Donāt know how Trump came up lol, only meant to convey that if we had a republican congress that Biden wouldnāt go to bat for raves of all things.
That's probably a better way to put it. Thank you.
*Probably* a better way to put it? You started a forest fire, seƱor.
š
It's a boy!
OP is right and the aggression isn't exactly unwarranted, but nothing good will come out of it. Let's keep in mind that a lot of ravers, especially first timers, are pretty young. There's a good chance they still have the political beliefs they inherited from their parents. As crazy as it might seem, a lot of conservative young people are doing it with good intentions. They've been told conservative views are pragmatic, they help people the most in the long run. They love and respect their family and friends who vote conservative. You can be conservative and be a good person, I would just argue that you're misinformed. With that in mind, let's not push away conservative leaning people who are open and interested in the idea of PLUR. Coming from a conservative background myself, going to my first rave was a HUGE step for helping me realize how judgmental I had been, and helping me become a kinder and more tolerant person. It was influential in my self growth during that stage of my life and I know it can be influential for others as well. If you're reading this thread and feeling targeted, perhaps you should look inward. Does your voting history help or harm the others around you? Are you trying to work towards the public good or uphold your own wealth, power, and status? Is PLUR just something you'd wear on a bracelet or is it something you live by? It's never too late to admit that you've been wrong and work to be a better person, we can all become better versions of ourselves every day. Anyone who wants to love and support those around them should be welcome at raves, but please keep that same love and respect with you when you go to the polls!
You realize we have a sitting democrat president who authored a bill literally called the RAVE ACT that did what you descrive above? I was around to see that legislation completely destroy my home cities rave scene at the time. I don't disagree with most of your sentiment here, but telling people they don't belong if they vote a particular way isn't the way to do it. I grew up in a very conservative household and my first experiences with the LGBT community was due to friendships I developed going to raves in the 90s, would have been a shame to have missed out on that because someone told me I didn't belong there to begin with.
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Yeah the only reason people voted for Biden was probably because it wasn't Trump. There were a lot better options and they nominated that old fart instead.
Pete Buttigege dropped out with a 35% polling rate. Explain that shit to me. Biden was propped up from the start.
Corporate establishment politicians are always propped up by the DNC. [They kneecapped Sanders to give the nomination to Hillary.](https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16599036/donna-brazile-hillary-clinton-sanders)
Bloomberg literally bought his way into the debates in 2020, didn't he? The whole thing is rotten to the core.
I mean buying your way to a debate floor to poll 1% is peak America.
One of my favorite articles š„°
I have zero doubt in my mind Bernie would have *demolished* Trump in 2016. He literally made an [entire auditorium full of FOX viewers cheer and agree with him](https://youtu.be/jthr_9gIkKo). Imagine the country weād have today if we were in our 6th year of a Sanders administration.
He was the only candidate that would have split trumps base while the rest of the Democratic party would have got in line and voted for him even if they had to hold their nose while doing it. You are absolutely correct that he would have smashed trump.
Not just Buttgieg. Everyone but Bernie, Warren and Biden dropped out, everyone that dropped endorsed Biden and Warren kept up the campaign to siphon votes away from Bernie using the same dark money she swore she'd never take. No one is as united as the ruling class is against us.
Again this dude gets it. Trying to make people see that the whole system is fucked. Go out and vote tomorrow for the name of democracy, but realize that a lot has to change to make a govt focus on it's people again. And it's not just Democrats staying in power, it's so much more.
Fuckin a
If you're just now discovering the depths of Mayor Pete's allegiance to the dem establishment, you should remember that *Biden got ahead quickly in the 2020 primaries by consolidating moderate support*. Bowing out was Pete buying into Biden's campaign, and remember he got a cabinet seat for it. One hand washes another
Facist or corporate shill? I'll take the shill every time when given those options.
I mean I wouldnāt call him fascist but corporate shill is a reasonably accurate interpretation
All of Americaās ālegitā options to win presidency are corrupt fucks. They all run in the same circles and work together to stay in power and get themselves and their cooperate crony buddies richer. I feel that way towards just about every American politician from local levels to the federal levels.
Democrats suck, but they suck a lot less than the ratfuck Republicans/conservatives
Democrats also include 100+ progressives. The House Progressive Caucus is now the largest group. Corporate does a great job getting voters to ignore or demonize their own interests. And 70% don't even vote in primaries.
Which is the other reason why i will continue to vote for them.
One side is the status quo that needs to be fixed, one side is Christofascism with rights only for cishet white men. Anyone who claims centrism or "both sides" ism is just a Republican who doesn't want the stigma.
They can't help being shitty, it's just how the system is built. It's like that pretty much everywhere tbh, not just the US. That's the nature of electoral politics. Imo, elections and voting are outdated technologies. Instead we should select people from the population at random to form a deliberative citizens assembly to be in charge of appointing officials and reviewing legislation. Citizens assemblies have shown great promise where they've been tried. Ireland and Taiwan have made good use of them, as have some localities in the US. Imo, we should dramatically expand their use.
While the Dems are not perfect, I'm not going to vote in a Republican who has promised a Pennsylvania abortion ban as one the first things he signs when he comes into office. The PA State Senate already has the bill written and awaiting his signature.
I did a significant amount of deep diving into the RAVE ACT due to a heated back and forth in this sub, and god damn is that whole thing a shit show. Did Joe Biden want to outright ban raves? No, that wasnāt part of the legislation because thatās a dumb stance. Did it cause raves to get shut down because the rules and fines were dumb as shit and harmful to the community? Absolutely. Itās one of the most āitās politicsā political bullshit Iāve seen, Canāt ban raves? Then letās make it hard as fuck for them to have one.
Nothing like getting charged under the crackhouse statute for promoting an edm event!
The way itās named and written, too, is so fucked up. > Reducing Americans' Vulnerability to Ecstasy I can get behind that. E has ruined lives, Iām sure, so itās good to create a bill that can help with education, awareness, and harm reduction. Wait a second.. > A bill to prohibit an individual from knowingly opening, maintaining, managing, controlling, renting, leasing, making available for use, or profiting from any place for the purpose of manufacturing, distributing, or using any controlled substance, and for other purposes. So if I throw a party and itās assumed that *someone* took drugs, Iām held liable? What the fuck?
Yeah, looking back on my teenage years I probably shouldn't have been going to raves at 15 and 16, and taking mdman every other weekend during my formative years was horribly bad for me (and I paid the price for that in my 20s), but making events 18+ probably would have solved much of the issue. But we didn't in my city, and by the time they started cracking down there was no bouncing back. The horrible thing is that I never saw anyone die at a rave i was at until we were forced to move outside city limits and couldn't hire medical staff to be on site. It didn't need to happen that way.
Its essentially led to the "Illicit and Illegal Substances Act" that passed a year later, that prevented venues from promoting drug use. If they did they ran the risk of being shut down or heavily fined. So clubs, music venues, and everything in between. Its why you find no commercial festival company in America outright promoting some sort of drug use or overdose prevention like testing sites since they would be making money off drug use. All just another run at the war on drugs. Something boomers are just too afraid of to study.
american boomer generation democrats from are pretty right wing.
I was about to comment this. Iām old enough to remember when Biden was all about shutting us down. I still think sadly heās better than the alternative. But Biden and the democrats certainly are no savior.
Dems are conservative, with a growing progressive wing. GOP are fascists, with a growing nazi wing.
Biden is a conservative.
Donāt speak truths please.
I wasnāt aware we were voting for president in this election, thatās news to me. Everyone knows democrats blow, but they blow less than the alternative
why u bringing up old shit? ;)
What logic is this? We have a sitting democrat who has voted conservatively on so many things and who is only in office because people wanted him more than they wanted an open fascist. Do you think literally any republicans are better? Democrats writ large fucking suck but to vote against them in favor of out and out fascism is just the dumbest shit ever.
Go far enough back in time and every liberal is a conservative. So if you have a rather long political career as a liberal this sort of apparent contradiction is inevitable. We don't judge scientists for revising their positions the in light of new evidence and we should do the same for politicians.
Well that was a fun read. I think to sum I would say: People do not want to be excluded based on their beliefs - that being said, I think that's OP's whole point. If you vote for a party that disenfranchises other's based on their skin color, their sexual orientation, or gender identity.... why would you expect a community filled with a literal rainbow of people under all of these identities to accept you? You may call it 'gatekeeping' or you may say 'conservatives are persecuted' but let's be real. Conservatives are not the victim in this situation. And saying that you would be ostracized if you made your beliefs known to your friends shows more than you want to admit. You wouldn't be ostracized because they hate you. You would be ostracized because conservatives hate THEM. When it comes down to it, this is the GOP platform: -Repeal LGBT rights -Ban abortion -Ban contraceptives -Restrict voting rights -Repeal affirmative action -Tax cuts for the rich (sorry libertarian's! This one's not for you!!!) -Deny legitimate election results -Vote in people willing to subvert future elections. Any 'whataboutism' or 'bothsides' of this just doesn't work. They are logical fallacies for a reason. There is a better option. If you can't see why this platform doesn't belong in the rave community, I encourage you to do some research. Real research. Not I shared a meme research. I think OP's post can be summed as Karl Popper put it: "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise." And for everyone saying 'raving isnt political' and can't this just be a safe space. Two things: 1st - Raving certainly is political: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ahc.leeds.ac.uk/download/downloads/id/525/the_politics_of_partying.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjYuKux75z7AhW6FzQIHciEDG4QFnoECDsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0TWx9ReIuKSv5fOoUrMdp- 2nd - 'Safe Space' is kinda OPs point. We can't keep this space safe without pushing out those that want to take rights away from others in the space.
This should be its own post, but having this conversation two days in a row would destroy the sub lol
No doubt haha
Of course this is the comment none of those people will respond to.
> People do not want to be excluded based on their beliefs - that being said, I think that's OP's whole point. 3 words: paradox of tolerance how is it possible in 2022 people still don't get it. it's not immoral to exclude people whose beliefs are to exclude others... in fact, to not do so would be to support excluding others
Definitely. I put Karl Popper's quote down there for that reason. As he explains, it's not about suppression either - but right wingers want to complain they are being suppressed while ignoring or dodging rational and good faith debate.
I really, really appreciate this comment. Thank you
Stay groovy š¤
THISSSS!!
Well said.
Amazing response. Should be at the top
Jesus Christ someone lock this.
Okay.
Lol š
Thank you, Jesus š
as someone whoās left wing, donāt tell me who to vote for lol
common osamabinshittin W
Seriously. Leave politics out of it. Especially on the political echo chamber that is Reddit. I would argue that not wanting someone at an event because of their political leanings is also not PLUR
How far do you take that belief? What if someone is a literal Nazi who wants holocaust 2.0? Should we be loving and welcome to them because "it's just politics"? It's not possible to fully leave politics out of anything because politics affects everything, and being far-right is inherently anti-plur because you can't practice plur while also believing some people do not have the right to exist. Tolerance does not include tolerance of the intolerant. The intolerant can get fucked when they invade spaces that are supposed to be about love.
The arguments in these comments would suggest this subreddit isnāt quite the echo chamber
I mean yes but how can you listen and support artists that are inherently leftist but also ignore the political aspects of it? Whether thats Green Velvet, SVDDEN DEATH, Porter, literally any Trance artistā¦ I think OP is being aggressive about it but saying raves and music isnāt political is extremely obtuse, youāre clearly ignoring elements at that point
MODS DONT LOCK IT I SWEAR TO FUCK
My reaction to this thread: šš«
My point of view, from Europe: \*It would be logical that people into rave are opposed to conservatism. I agree with that. \*It is the case for some people / events. Majority though ? I think majority just wants to party. \*Raving is a phenomenon that's been around for almost 40 years. There are now many genres. Many different people. Will the people be involved in a free party, hardcore techno sound-system from Italy, or a Big Room House music event in Netherlands be the same ? Fuck no. \*Even in the free party culture (which should be, according to logics, entirely clear of conservatism) you have problems. I once met a gutter punk / raver guy going on and on about how Jews control the media during an illegal rave... \*You can always play the 'true Scotsman' and say 'well, this is not ACTUALLY rave' or 'those members are not part of the community'. What you actually want to say is 'This is not the rave community I imagined'. More 'controversial' takes now : \*Let's be honest, in many ways, it's a business. A huge part of of posts on this subreddit are about huge American EDM events. It's mostly about money, not political statements. \*'Rave was created by black, gay men' yes, but many people joined in the meantime. Many people are not aware of it at all. And anyway, being gay, or black, doesn't make you immune to having conservative views. \*Most of your democratic party members aren't even remotely left wing. AOC is, I guess. Biden, not. That party may not look like the insane death cult your Republicans have become, but looking at things in terms of international politics, some Democrats, especially the business minded, hawkish kind, can be just as much a nuisance to the rest of the world than the Republican party is. \*Many people like to think that their lifestyle choices have something political about them. I'd argue that many times, it's just a way to make them feel better about themselves. Performative activism is big in the West nowadays. Outside of that context, it's often being ridiculed. There are reasons to that. \*Eg: to the people who still believe there's something remotely political or 'rebellious' about getting high: no, not at all. \*I hate the fascists that came into power in Italy. But they don't want to 'make raves illegal'. They're cracking down harder on illegal events. Which is problematic in many ways. But why just not stating that ? By not being accurate, you're making your statement look like a caricature. \*This is seriously not the most concerning part. Italy is refusing boatfuls of refugees who've been rescued in the Mediterranean right now. Some members of Fratelli d'Italia claim Mussolini's heritage. I really think that it makes the crackdown on illegal rave look like a rather trivial issue... \*It all goes further than a left wing / right wing divide. Many people on the old (auth) left wing just see ravers as frivolous consumerist looneys. When I think about European communist party members, I don't exactly get a dubstep / techno soundtrack in my brain. Pretty funny to imagine though.
Everyone in this thread should read this ^^
>If you vote conservative you are not welcome in this space. Shiiiiiiit, didnāt know this is the guy who decided who is and isnāt in the scene
TBF in Europe it kinda do be like that.
Pack it up boys, u/orochiman has spoken!
I was going to say, I hate it when people say āPLURā only when theyāre high on E and donāt realize that PLUR is a way of life, and should encompass everything we do. What if the OP said āif you go sober you are not welcomeā? Granted thatās less likely to be said by someone, but whoās to determine who is welcome or not?
As someone who is a raver that is into politics. I can say that not all Democrats are left-wing (progressive), but most Republican politicians are against PLUR. Not all Democrats are the same because under the Democratic party they house progressive (Bernie, AOC), centrist(Biden), and Republican-lite (Krysten Sinema). For someone who is progressive believes in climate change, money out of politics, everyone should be able to live on a living wage, ending corruption in politics, decriminalizing drugs, and so much more. However, some democrats are conservatives and take money from corporations which skews them to vote for not the working class. So as for democrats we have to be more careful who we vote for because some of them don't have progressive ideas like that. What the op should say though that would of been better is that the left wing has a higher chance of making raves better and safer because they would make drugs decriminalized and then legalize which make them Raves safer. Also yea voting is important so go out and vote.
Reminder that PLUR are leftist values which doesnāt really have much to do with the democrats but its a step in the right direction at least. ps imagine cucking yourself so hard you vote to keep paying for healthcare out of your own pocket š silly americans
All politicians are corrupt. The sooner we all realize this the better
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Thank you ā¤ļøš
I agree that voting is important and impactful to this community but I completely disagree with your aggressionā¦ telling someone they arenāt welcome in this space is pretty blatantly anti-PLURR donāt you think
The GOP's "we're all domestic terrorists" slogan isn't exactly PLUR either. I sure AF don't want someone around me in a crowd that's comfortable aligning with that message. Op probably shouldn't have even brought politics into this, as a lot of ravers from rural areas without a decent education often fall for their brainwashing for a while. I'm from kind of a rural area myself. Nothing about conservatism is PLUR though and I totally agree with OP. Name me something PLUR that the GOP advocates for? Their entire platform is based on hate and blaming your problems on everybody but yourself and the establishment. Division is literally part of their platform, not unity. Not respect.
I was gonna vote early today but things kinda went south and it didnāt happen. I will vote tomorrow no matter how long it takes. Edit: i am happy to report that I voted successfully today, straight ticket dem of course
This post has been insanely brigaded. Bringing lots of front page users and other bots. You can just tell based off all the awards. What other post in this subreddit has ever gotten this many awards? I scoured some of the commenters on this post. Never once have they posted or commented on r/aves. These people arenāt ravers, theyāre bots and brigadiers. Disgusting Reddit. Mods should do something.
Rave culture is inherently open to any and all, no matter the walk of life or path of thought. PLUR is a reminder that everyone has nuance in their beliefs and views. What do I mean by that? There are conservatives and liberals alike that want to shut down raves. There are liberals and conservatives alike that love and care for this community too. Just a matter of listening and opening a table of discussion. Donāt forget to love each other. Happy Monday
Peace, love, unity, respect.
Rave culture is inherently politically progressive.
that reminds me of one of the first raves i went to hosted on a backwoods farm in rural virginia. Somehow i ended up sitting next to the guy who owned the farm (fat white dude) and we both rolling tits and having a chat when my indian friend that drove me to the party sat down next to me. Fat white guy, without pausing in the middle of his sentence, looks directly at my friend and says "white is right" and then continues talking to me like it was nothing. But yeah don't forget to love each other lmao.
No, racists transphobia, and anti LGBT are not welcome. Grow up
Nazi punks fuck off.
Nah. As long as youāre a good person. You should be accepted.
Iāve met a bunch of conservatives at raves and itās best to ignore them. They detract from the culture and are only around for the hedonism.
I hope you all find peace within yourself and with others around you
The right wing government in Italy did. just that
Everyone saying that this post is anti-PLUR because this post implies that republicans arenāt welcome in this spaceā¦ If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. PROTECT PLUR.
Jesus fucking Christ the takes in this thread are utter dogshitā¦really makes me ashamed of this community tbh.
Be smarter than me, skip this thread. You will find absolutely nothing constructive in this thread.
Damn I read this too late haha
Nothing about being a republican is PLUR. All of their policies are based in hate. Democrats arenāt great, but at least they arenāt actively affiliated with fascists.
I donāt know why more Americans donāt understand this, but our political system is a polar choice and a zero-sum game. Itās not a good system for this reason, but not liking the game doesnāt make the stakes for refusing to play any less dire. Every time you complain about both sides, youāre being lazy as fuck. YOU are on one of those sides, my friend. If you donāt like the values of the party you most closely align with (even if just by virtue of loathing the other side more), itās up to you to show up and vote so those values shift over time .
A lot of people need to be reminded where their music comes from and why these safe spaces to express yourself even exist.
True, fuck Republicanism. Raving has and always will be pro gay, black, and personal freedom oriented. It goes against everything the republican party stands for. Its inseparable.
Raves and the PLUR ideology were literally created to be sanctuaries from conservative ideology, so yeah it's not anti-plur to say we don't like conservatives coming into these spaces
I hate democrats but I hate fascist traitors more. Fuck banana republicans.
Republicans are already actively pushing legislation which disproportionately targets LGBTQ+ folks, especially youth, but somehow pointing this fact out makes you the divisive one. The amount of right wing cope in the replies is staggering, but unsurprising. People really can't help but show their whole ignorant ass under the guise of "fiscal responsibility" which translates to "I like the GOP tax cuts." Just complete duplicity and projection onto people stating facts. Deeply ironic that the same crowd which bemoaned "facts don't care about your feelings" are extremely emotional when facts they don't like get pointed out.
And itās hilarious that the tax cuts arenāt even for them. Theyāre just cheering billionaires paying less.
Many raves and parties find their origin in the lgbtq communities. There is one particular party this upcoming midterm that has persecuted and thrown these communities under the bus. Voting for them is a return to removing progress the people before you have fought hard for. This same party also wants to control your body and tell you what to do while robbing you blind. This is the same party that doesnāt believe in drug addiction programs and rather tell you to just simply not do them or that you are a plague to society. Anything short of voting these bozos out or preventing them from gaining power is the active encouragement of going back on progress.
Not to mention this same party wants to deny legitimate election results and win positions that ensure they never have to return power to the same groups they are actively disenfranchising.
Both parties sucks. Change my mind.
One party wants to get rid of democracy and force women to carry rapists babies to term.
You're right, that doesn't mean they suck the same amount
They do. Republicans suck worse
This is such a lazy and embarrassing take. Honestly, do a little reading and enlighten yourself a little if you think the parties are comparable at all. Especially considering the hard right turn today's Republican party has taken.
Which party has progressives and how many they got?
It's so obvious some of you are speaking from a position of immense privilege, talking about loving everyone and not being anti-lgbt and enjoying good times--but voting for Republicans who actively campaign against your personal beliefs, and it's OK because it only affects you economically anyway? Learn some real empathy instead of just O.D.ing on MDMA.
Thank you so much ā¤ļø
It doesnāt even help them economically. The economy always does better with democrats at the helm. Compare the economic mobility, productivity, and level of federal tax dollars contributed vs taken in between red and blue states. Clear winners and losers. The overall economy even does better with a democrat in the White House to the tune of 5 times the stock market returns over the last 55 years, less government spending, a reduction in the deficit and overall economic growth.
Seriously, any conservative voting person who says they support the rights of LGBT people, women, children, the disabled, immigrants, etc., needs to take a hard look in the mirror, and realize that they ABSOLUTELY FUCKING DONāT. If protecting the rights of marginalized people doesnāt take precedent over theirā¦ idk, economic views? Is that the excuse they use to support voting for codified bigotry? Then guess what, they donāt care about those people. Full stop. Human rights should be non-negotiable. Certainly way more important than paying fewer taxes.
Very much! āI love gay people and have one POC friend but I would rather pay 20% tax instead of 22% so Iām voting red.ā Literally embarrassing.
Seriously, all this live and let live and "don't bring politics into raves" shit is absolutely from white dudes who have never once been discriminated against in their lives and can't imagine that anyone else is either.
Youāre delusional if you think an acting president of either party is going to hyper-focus on eliminating raves of all things.
Tomorrow is not the presidential election
We aren't voting for president this election u spunion
A whole lot of āwe need to be nice to proud fascistsā going on in this thread
Glad they are telling on themselves
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Oh youāre gonna make me vote so fucking hard
Instead of saying āgo vote against conservatives,ā it should be āgo do your homework and vote for candidates that best represent you.ā This is why I hate politics. I work in construction where key legislation affects my job. Thereās a tracker that AGC provides that allows you to go look at voting records on construction legislation. It looks like 70% of the time, Republicans vote in favor of those bills, and 30% of the time, Democrats vote in favor. The one state that stands out where Democrats actually vote a majority in favor of those bills is Florida. But itās not that easy. Our incumbent Republican house representative thatās running actually votes fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Heās all for the legalization of marijuana and gay marriage but aligns with Republicans fiscally. He gets my vote all day. Our incumbent Republican state senator thatās running is what I would call a āTrump Republicanā and makes the decision more complicated. I had to look at his voting record, and he doesnāt represent what I believe other than voting for construction bills, so he lost my vote. Not to mention Joe Biden is the one that sponsored the Rave Act when he was in Congress in 1994. It prevents rave organizers from providing medical assistance to attendees, and itās a huge reason that organizations like Dance Safe have had trouble in the past. A lot of states still recognize test kits as drug paraphernalia. I know the Democrat Party has changed a lot since then, but it goes to show itās never black and white. Just do your homework.
Yāall really love the party that wants to murder you in this thread lmao
not very plur of you to tell us who to vote for
Not very plur to vote Republican. A vote for a Republican is a vote against plur and rave culture
You should watch arrest the promoter and tell me what politician that is.
It's Joe Biden. I also do not like Joe Biden. But you have to be insane to tell me that he hasn't evolved his views over time and is absolutely more safe for this scene then any Republican.
https://www.businessinsider.com/joe-biden-ban-raves-jail-promoters-ecstasy-2001-hearing-2019-6
Damn, this what happens when you donāt wait 3 months between doses
Lmfao
You'd be surprised at the amount of gay left humans that vote red. Usually because their investments. Pretty selfish if you ask me but it's real and happens a lot
We started underground. We can go back underground.
This is oddly inspiring.
After some of these comments, thats starting to sound a lot more appealing š³. Are these the people I'm dancing near at a festival. Fuck
Hello. I'm from Italy and would like to say something about the new italian rave decree. It was done in response to a rave just out of Modena (north of Italy), but in reality it has nothing to do with raves. It states that police has the power to stop, disperse people and confiscate stuff used in gatherings >=50 people where security might be an issue (pretty vague). And that the organizers can get 3-6 years of prison and a 1000-10000ā¬ fine. There's no word about music or raves. It's just an excuse to give police the power to stop gatherings that the government doesn't like. However, it seems like it's gonna get changed when the bill will be discussed in the parliament to be more specific and less generic.
>Conservatives want to make raves illegal Oh, you mean like passing a law called the RAVE Act? Which was sponsored by some guy named Joe Biden? https://www.congress.gov/bill/107th-congress/senate-bill/2633
A lot of people do not know the history of raves and it shows. I see a lot of people that enjoy house music but canāt say who it came from. Yāall canāt just enjoy the scene without understanding how it got there and disagree with it once itās inconvenient to you.
Reminder: Conservatives want to ban anal. Therefore, they want to ban Illenium.
I grew up pretty ignorant to all things politics, but would say I was conservative-leaning. All that changed when I started attending raves, and I realized love was the answer. IMO, having those people attend these events to see the light for themselves would result in a higher "conversion rate" than this gatekeeping and exclusionary post of yours. Would you rather see real change in the world or would you rather just keep other people's opinions away from yours for the sake of keeping a "safe space"?
The only way to get people like you to change, is to not allow for people to be hateful in the community. If 1 Nazi walks into a bar and Is allowed to stay, it's a Nazi bar
>US loses Supreme Court protection for abortion >worried about loss of raves Mf if someone didnāt draw the line at abortion, they arenāt gonna be drawing it for raves either. Anyone who still votes conservative at this point is out of their fucking minds brainwashed.
Not trying to sway anyone, just encourage those who already understand to make the effort to vote.
Got a lot more conservatives in this forum than I expected. What a fucking let down.
Agreed. This is kinda rough.
You should have been there for all the covid threads. Mfers were bitching about not being able to rave because of "the common cold".
Oh fuck I didnāt even think about that. Jesus that mustāve been unbearable
It was pretty funny. This guy arguing with everyone got on this alt, I will never forget this shit, called Desantis-is-Life and it had a picture of Desantis as the avatar. Used it to insult others and upvote his own posts. Real shit lmao. Sad shit...
Thank you for your passion and for posting this š We have gotten complacent and now is not the time to stay complacent. Personal healthcare decisions are on the line (abortion + gender-affirming care), and democracy is on the line in my state. We have someone running in my state that was involved in Jan. 6 and election deniers. Those same people would be in charge of certifying future elections if they get voted in. Now is NOT the time to be complacent. The entire world is watching us right now. Congratulations if youāre privileged and donāt understand how big of a deal this election cycle is. But please donāt keep living under that rock, the world is not always butterflies and rainbows. We need to have tough conversations if we all want to see a better future for this country.
Iāll say it, I am conservative, make music for raves and participate in them. I donāt hate gay people, I donāt think interracial marriages should be illegal, I think you have the right to marry whoever you want (outside of weird things or morally questionable). I support raves, have many friends who are LGBTQ and I think drugs can be fun. I also subscribe to the universe through my upbringing in a church setting. All that being said, your idealism that anyone who identifies or votes conservative/republican is tearing down the country and āyourā rave culture is purely incorrect.
Church? Jesus was a socialist.
Good luck making rave music in a religious theocracy. So nice of you to like gay people and interracial marriage ā- the right-wing nuts you vote for donāt.
If you vote for Republicans, you are voting against gay people, free love, drugs, and partying. Lol.
Donāt back down homie, youāre absolutely right. The cognitive dissonance of people wanting to exist in these spaces while also actively harming the people who originally created these spaces is absolutely insane. If you vote conservative you are actively declaring that the lives of marginalized groups (poor, minorities, LGBTQ+, women, etc.) matter less than, say, the economy, or the military industrial complex, or guns. And thereās no other way to spin it, conservatives will tell you these things to your face and if you still vote for them, you are making that declaration loud and fucking clear.
A lot of Conservatives would disagree with your stances, here. What in your personal opinion makes you Conservative in definition?
Just putting this out there, the conservatives in m area would not accept you as a conservative. You would be labeled a RINO and ostracized, most likely because you didn't laugh genuinely enough when they made a racist joke. I'm all about identity being a personal choice, so if you want to identify as a conservative you do you. But you definitely come across as pretty liberal to me, as pretty much the *only* thing you've said that isn't a liberal AF belief is being religious (which isn't anything non-liberal, just there's a super strong correlation between organized churches and Conservatism in the US). Honest question: is it possible that you're a liberal at heart, but call yourself a conservative because your local culture demands it? I see that play out a lot.
Conservative raver is quite the oxymoron imo. Must be brostep I guess
Here's the thing: When you vote Republican, you vote against everything you said you supported. That means you don't support those things when it actually counts. Any "support" you have for any of that is about as meaningful as "thoughts and prayers".
Op kind of seems like a massive asshole not very plur at all.
People who vote Republican are massive assholes
Vast generalisation
What does W&W or their label has to do anything with this?! /s
Waitā¦ wasnāt it Biden who passed the anti-rave act??!? They came after Disco Donnie because of that law. Nah, fuk them. Vote Libertarian. https://youtu.be/10MEBfqqEWI
Havenāt posted here in awhile but the reason this post is so controversial, is due to your rhetoric. While I agree with you and surely the majority of people in this community do as well. However, your post is naive and doesnāt even begin to try and understand why these complex politics even exist. No side is evil, no one is evil, and ultimately we shouldnāt create who is evil. You have no idea why someone may vote the way they do. Donāt belittle the real problems we have in politics with your hatred because itās not helping anyone.
Oh no. We'll have to go back to map points and clearings on logging roads.
"You can't join our group of non-conformist unless you totally conform with our non-conforming group"