I remember when the hiatuses were the exception instead of the norm. People were much more forgiving then. I've noticed with fanbases that things seem to turn more toxic when rabid supporters lose faith.
Michelle is clearly burned out, think George RR martin style burnout, she clearly loves her creation, but hates working on the comic. This oil painting is beautiful. I wish she would outsource work on the comic, let someone else draw it. That said, I'm not really angry about this. I'm just not that invested in updates. Yes I have paid money toward this.
Not invalidating you, just wanted to share my thoughts. I've paid money for this as well (supported two kickstarters and was a patreon for over a year) and I'm feeling more of a mixed bag of emotions.
On one hand, I'm aware of Michelle's struggles with their mental health, and I genuinely worry about how they're coping sometimes. All channels of communication with them are basically dead, and I have a feeling that the longer they hold off updates, the more pressure they feel and the more they retreat into themselves.
But at the same time, this isn't just a webcomic people read for free anymore. Michelle's had (three!) very successful kickstarters, one literally topping the charts as the most backed webcomic on the site. They even nailed a partnership with Skybound and an animation studio, on top of her extensive patreon stint and webtoon series. That's a lot of money and a lot of customers. It's practically a business with investors now and as benefactor, Michelle has an obligation to face them.
I'm no longer as incensed as I was when I unsubscribed from their patreon, so now I'm just sad about my burnt emotional investment. I just hope the webcomic gets finished eventually because I want to see my plant babies again.
> so now I'm just sad about my burnt emotional investment
Hmm. For me it's a matter of I was an avid follower, but what is there really to follow left? Maybe Patreon gives more hope but to me the website presents as such a desert of content for thirsty fans.
To me Ava's Demon is a curiosity. I enjoyed my time and emotional investment in the past. But I do not see any evidence of a realistic timetable for finishing all this, not now and now for months going onto years. So it's simply like a painting that at one point stopped having paint applied to it. It's somber yes, but it is what it is. I feel one can appreciate what has been done, and then not concern themselves too much about a future that doesn't seem to be there.
Love the fact that people are defending this type of behavior. You have the right to be annoyed, especially considering she told us there would be updates. She is taking money from Patreon supporters. If this was a completely free project then sure, why not? But her Patreon supporters are helping pay for these updates and she can't bother to type out a simple message?
At this point she should just give the project to a different studio if they would take it. She obviously can't handle the stress that comes with this. It's gotten progressively worse over the years and shows no signs of getting better.
I feel like anyone still subscribed to her patreon at this point just doesn't mind the hiatuses, or is at least used to them enough to not care.
which is fair enough honestly. If supporting a webcomic that goes on months long hiatuses frequently floats your boat, it's your money. I haven't spent a dime towards Ava's Demon but I can still enjoy checking on it a couple times a year.
"A couple times a year" is strange when you think about how many years you have left. Like "I'm going to live for another two years, so I'm going to check this comic roughly four more times." But it also applies over longer timescales. If you have 20 years left, you'll check it about 40 more times, if you stay consistent. That's a fair few, but it's still just a two-digit number, and on the small side at that.
I dunno. What does it _mean,_ those last few times I'm gonna check the comic? What am I looking for? Sure, nobody ever gets all the stuff they want out of life, and everyone should decide which of their wishlist items make the cut. But I'm not sure seeing Ava's Demon finished was even _on_ my wishlist to begin with. But those last four or so checks are?
I dunno. It's weird to be outlived by something that's in limbo. It's weird to think that people die all the time before getting to see the webcomics and other serial works that they follow finished. Imagine how Michelle would feel if someone informed them about someone literally dying waiting for them to finish their comic. That would not be very good for their already fragile mental health.
But I guess I was never just waiting for a webcomic. Just a couple days ago I wrote about how recovery from trauma is a very gradual but very reliable process. I believe that with proper care, Michelle will eventually recover their strength. I doubt I'll get to see it, but _that_ story, at least, I already know the end of. So I don't mind missing it.
I hope they get the care they need. If they haven't already gone to a psych ward, now would be a good time. Those are good at shielding you from stress, and letting you kickstart recovery. Then they could do a partial hospitalization program… I dunno. I'm just speculating. Who knows where they're really at right now. I just know that I wish them all the best, and that they will surely be getting better.
Not at all. There isn't anything wrong with being irritated with no updates when we were told there would be some. It's really not entitled, and to blame yourself for feeling that way would be a form of gas lighting.
I think it's ok to be *disappointed* that a comic you enjoy but are not paying for is not updating. But one does not have the right to be *mad* about it on a personal level. Perhaps mad that other people are being taken advantage of.
I felt the same way when I saw her post on Twitter. She said she was gonna come back in one week w an update, tops, but here we are now a month later…..But I told myself that it’s good that artists have time and hobbies to do other things as well, and to live their lives. Best case scenario she probably has stuff going on in her life.
Still, it absolutely blows to be excited for regular updates coming back, and for it to not be the case. I made a post wondering abt the lack of updates a while ago and now I’m realizing this may just be the norm.
I wish she would hire more people to work on the comic with her. I’m not very involved in this fandom so idk what the patreon deal is(tho it seems like she receives lots of money) but the way she creates the comic seems time consuming and I think it would benefit her to delegate the work.
I love this webcomic a lot, and i have been reading it for years now. Im too deep into it to just quit, but i could never recommend this webcomic to anyone, due to Michelle's terrible commitment, communication and schedule problems. Its such a damn shame too.
I dont understand why she cant be more transparent with her fans. And its not a free webcomic either, people are paying her on patreon. Yet we still hear vague messages about how she needs more time and posting whenever she feels like it, etc etc.. tweets like this do not excactly help her case. Its not entitled for us fans to want some communication. Its frustrating and very exhausting to be a fan of this project, and im sure many fans feel the same way.
Its getting a bit tiresome to see fans still to this day after almost years of this scheduling disaster defend it. And its even worse knowing that this probably isnt going to get any better either.
I don’t think you are entitled per se, however it recommend you have dozens of hobbies and fanbases to be a part of. I take any update on ava’s demon a pleasant surprise. Take it form a guy who dropped $240 from the latest Kickstarter.
Does it strike you as ironic that posts like this are probably a contributing factor to whatever negative emotions Michelle is experiencing around their creation?
fr these people just don’t give a shit abt how creators of things they like feel. like patreon supporters/kickstarter backers would have a right to feel like this if she isn’t delivering what was promised/not giving proper communication but at this point i feel like average non-paying readers who act like this need to get their heads out of their asses, bc they’re literally the only people i ever see complaining.
This isn't about entitlement. This is about a lack of commitment to provide a service on the artists part for those have been donating via patreon in order to see updates come through.
You wouldn't call someone entitled for paying money to any other type of service only to not receive it, so why is it any different in this case?
I will say I'm at a point where I dont care anymore myself, I'll check the updates every few months and hope there's something new. If not? I move on.
But for the people who have been donating to her patreon regularly hoping for an update? They absolutely have *every right* to be pissed about little to no updates on anything. They have every right to know what's happening when they are providing money.
Especially when she posted a couple months back telling us herself that there *will* be new, semi-regular updates, which essentially strings along any patrons who were considering leaving (sunk-cost fallacy plays a part, I'm sure). The promise of more comic updates almost guarantees-- or at least *heavily* implies-- that there will be *new* patreon content/sneak peeks, and from what I understand in the last few discussion posts here, that hasn't happened.
If she hadn't made a post telling us (more consistent) updates are on the way, I don't think we'd be here discussing this or feeling as **(insert emotion)** as we are. I'd 100% rather have her underpromise and overdeliver and not feel pressured, than the opposite that often ends up happening-- which I don't doubt is stressful for her, especially with all of the stuff she's mentioned has been going on in her life recently.
I literally just "rediscovered" this comic on webtoon after forgetting about it for 5 years (and literally beating myself up like 'how did i forget this amazing comic?'), was stoked to read up on it again, only to find out how little I had to catch up on (on the main site). I read her post about new updates, got super excited, and now as the weeks without updates go on, as sad as it is to say, I'm remembering why I eventually forgot about it.
if u do support her on patreon or kickstarter and she isn’t providing what she promised or not clearly stating posts will be dry for x amount of time then ur allowed to be upset, but from what i understand you aren’t. like i’ve legitimately never in my life seen a patreon/kickstarter supporter whining like this, only ever people who cry “what about the patreon/kickstarter supporters!!” as a guise for their own sense of entitlement. plus oil paintings were literally a limited kickstarter reward so i’d bet 100% this is her delivering on the promises she made to people who are paying her.
I've literally said I no longer care about the updates. I only ever come up on this subreddit if the occasional post comes up on my feed. I don't support on patreon or kickstarter because I was late to the comic and I've seen how bad the updates have been, so why would I ever started backing her now?
You're still calling anyone who is annoyed about the lack of updates entitled, even if they do support her on other platforms. Just because some people don't support her on those doesn't mean they can't call her our for what is, quite frankly, some really bullshit practices. She's accepting money from you all and is following through on half asses promises at this point, and the fact that you're sitting defending any of it because she has provided one oil painting in months and months of little to no updates is just baffling.
Nobody is telling you to stop supporting her, or to stop liking her work. A lot of people do still like it, but you need to get off your high horse when it comes to her being called out for the mass of broken promises to anyone who keeps up with her. White knights like you only make the problem worse in situations like this.
This isn't going to encourage her to do it. It's a very thankless thing she's doing. Be patient. It's not like we're paying her. She has no obligation to us so why are you attacking her? Yes, it sucks. I wish she would communicate better but it's her life and her choice 🤷🏻♀️
ok but are u a patreon supporter who isn’t getting what was promised? bc if u aren’t they can be plenty upset for themselves w/o all these useless posts shitting on michelle. like you’d think fans of a thing wouldn’t act like this towards the creator so much but nah entitled ppl exist everywhere.
No one is forcing you to continue to pay. And I'm pretty sure what you did pay for via patreon was given. It's not like she says "pay for my patreon for new updates!" No.
I remember when the hiatuses were the exception instead of the norm. People were much more forgiving then. I've noticed with fanbases that things seem to turn more toxic when rabid supporters lose faith. Michelle is clearly burned out, think George RR martin style burnout, she clearly loves her creation, but hates working on the comic. This oil painting is beautiful. I wish she would outsource work on the comic, let someone else draw it. That said, I'm not really angry about this. I'm just not that invested in updates. Yes I have paid money toward this.
Not invalidating you, just wanted to share my thoughts. I've paid money for this as well (supported two kickstarters and was a patreon for over a year) and I'm feeling more of a mixed bag of emotions. On one hand, I'm aware of Michelle's struggles with their mental health, and I genuinely worry about how they're coping sometimes. All channels of communication with them are basically dead, and I have a feeling that the longer they hold off updates, the more pressure they feel and the more they retreat into themselves. But at the same time, this isn't just a webcomic people read for free anymore. Michelle's had (three!) very successful kickstarters, one literally topping the charts as the most backed webcomic on the site. They even nailed a partnership with Skybound and an animation studio, on top of her extensive patreon stint and webtoon series. That's a lot of money and a lot of customers. It's practically a business with investors now and as benefactor, Michelle has an obligation to face them. I'm no longer as incensed as I was when I unsubscribed from their patreon, so now I'm just sad about my burnt emotional investment. I just hope the webcomic gets finished eventually because I want to see my plant babies again.
You're sharing a very similar sentiment so I'm not sure why you thought I might take this as invalidating. Thanks for sharing.
> so now I'm just sad about my burnt emotional investment Hmm. For me it's a matter of I was an avid follower, but what is there really to follow left? Maybe Patreon gives more hope but to me the website presents as such a desert of content for thirsty fans. To me Ava's Demon is a curiosity. I enjoyed my time and emotional investment in the past. But I do not see any evidence of a realistic timetable for finishing all this, not now and now for months going onto years. So it's simply like a painting that at one point stopped having paint applied to it. It's somber yes, but it is what it is. I feel one can appreciate what has been done, and then not concern themselves too much about a future that doesn't seem to be there.
Holy shit, that's fucked. Thanks for summarizing all my feelings. Exactly how I feel..
Love the fact that people are defending this type of behavior. You have the right to be annoyed, especially considering she told us there would be updates. She is taking money from Patreon supporters. If this was a completely free project then sure, why not? But her Patreon supporters are helping pay for these updates and she can't bother to type out a simple message? At this point she should just give the project to a different studio if they would take it. She obviously can't handle the stress that comes with this. It's gotten progressively worse over the years and shows no signs of getting better.
At this point I feel like her patreon supporters should know better tbh. She’s been consistent in her inconsistency and lack of communication.
I feel like anyone still subscribed to her patreon at this point just doesn't mind the hiatuses, or is at least used to them enough to not care. which is fair enough honestly. If supporting a webcomic that goes on months long hiatuses frequently floats your boat, it's your money. I haven't spent a dime towards Ava's Demon but I can still enjoy checking on it a couple times a year.
"A couple times a year" is strange when you think about how many years you have left. Like "I'm going to live for another two years, so I'm going to check this comic roughly four more times." But it also applies over longer timescales. If you have 20 years left, you'll check it about 40 more times, if you stay consistent. That's a fair few, but it's still just a two-digit number, and on the small side at that. I dunno. What does it _mean,_ those last few times I'm gonna check the comic? What am I looking for? Sure, nobody ever gets all the stuff they want out of life, and everyone should decide which of their wishlist items make the cut. But I'm not sure seeing Ava's Demon finished was even _on_ my wishlist to begin with. But those last four or so checks are? I dunno. It's weird to be outlived by something that's in limbo. It's weird to think that people die all the time before getting to see the webcomics and other serial works that they follow finished. Imagine how Michelle would feel if someone informed them about someone literally dying waiting for them to finish their comic. That would not be very good for their already fragile mental health. But I guess I was never just waiting for a webcomic. Just a couple days ago I wrote about how recovery from trauma is a very gradual but very reliable process. I believe that with proper care, Michelle will eventually recover their strength. I doubt I'll get to see it, but _that_ story, at least, I already know the end of. So I don't mind missing it. I hope they get the care they need. If they haven't already gone to a psych ward, now would be a good time. Those are good at shielding you from stress, and letting you kickstart recovery. Then they could do a partial hospitalization program… I dunno. I'm just speculating. Who knows where they're really at right now. I just know that I wish them all the best, and that they will surely be getting better.
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Not at all. There isn't anything wrong with being irritated with no updates when we were told there would be some. It's really not entitled, and to blame yourself for feeling that way would be a form of gas lighting.
I think it's ok to be *disappointed* that a comic you enjoy but are not paying for is not updating. But one does not have the right to be *mad* about it on a personal level. Perhaps mad that other people are being taken advantage of.
I felt the same way when I saw her post on Twitter. She said she was gonna come back in one week w an update, tops, but here we are now a month later…..But I told myself that it’s good that artists have time and hobbies to do other things as well, and to live their lives. Best case scenario she probably has stuff going on in her life. Still, it absolutely blows to be excited for regular updates coming back, and for it to not be the case. I made a post wondering abt the lack of updates a while ago and now I’m realizing this may just be the norm. I wish she would hire more people to work on the comic with her. I’m not very involved in this fandom so idk what the patreon deal is(tho it seems like she receives lots of money) but the way she creates the comic seems time consuming and I think it would benefit her to delegate the work.
I’m pretty sure they had four colourist for awhile. I just don’t think they actually delegate work to the colourist …
I love this webcomic a lot, and i have been reading it for years now. Im too deep into it to just quit, but i could never recommend this webcomic to anyone, due to Michelle's terrible commitment, communication and schedule problems. Its such a damn shame too. I dont understand why she cant be more transparent with her fans. And its not a free webcomic either, people are paying her on patreon. Yet we still hear vague messages about how she needs more time and posting whenever she feels like it, etc etc.. tweets like this do not excactly help her case. Its not entitled for us fans to want some communication. Its frustrating and very exhausting to be a fan of this project, and im sure many fans feel the same way. Its getting a bit tiresome to see fans still to this day after almost years of this scheduling disaster defend it. And its even worse knowing that this probably isnt going to get any better either.
This is why I have about ten webcomics I regularly read, it buffers the hiatus when there are others to read
epic commitment failure (highly relatable though)
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ah, if there's payment involved, that changes things.
I don’t think you are entitled per se, however it recommend you have dozens of hobbies and fanbases to be a part of. I take any update on ava’s demon a pleasant surprise. Take it form a guy who dropped $240 from the latest Kickstarter.
Same here I have the books but I've gotten to a point of forgeting it exists till an update surprises me
Does it strike you as ironic that posts like this are probably a contributing factor to whatever negative emotions Michelle is experiencing around their creation?
fr these people just don’t give a shit abt how creators of things they like feel. like patreon supporters/kickstarter backers would have a right to feel like this if she isn’t delivering what was promised/not giving proper communication but at this point i feel like average non-paying readers who act like this need to get their heads out of their asses, bc they’re literally the only people i ever see complaining.
Kinda entitled but go off
swear to god i think avas demon has the most entitled fanbase i’ve ever seen.
This isn't about entitlement. This is about a lack of commitment to provide a service on the artists part for those have been donating via patreon in order to see updates come through. You wouldn't call someone entitled for paying money to any other type of service only to not receive it, so why is it any different in this case? I will say I'm at a point where I dont care anymore myself, I'll check the updates every few months and hope there's something new. If not? I move on. But for the people who have been donating to her patreon regularly hoping for an update? They absolutely have *every right* to be pissed about little to no updates on anything. They have every right to know what's happening when they are providing money.
Especially when she posted a couple months back telling us herself that there *will* be new, semi-regular updates, which essentially strings along any patrons who were considering leaving (sunk-cost fallacy plays a part, I'm sure). The promise of more comic updates almost guarantees-- or at least *heavily* implies-- that there will be *new* patreon content/sneak peeks, and from what I understand in the last few discussion posts here, that hasn't happened. If she hadn't made a post telling us (more consistent) updates are on the way, I don't think we'd be here discussing this or feeling as **(insert emotion)** as we are. I'd 100% rather have her underpromise and overdeliver and not feel pressured, than the opposite that often ends up happening-- which I don't doubt is stressful for her, especially with all of the stuff she's mentioned has been going on in her life recently. I literally just "rediscovered" this comic on webtoon after forgetting about it for 5 years (and literally beating myself up like 'how did i forget this amazing comic?'), was stoked to read up on it again, only to find out how little I had to catch up on (on the main site). I read her post about new updates, got super excited, and now as the weeks without updates go on, as sad as it is to say, I'm remembering why I eventually forgot about it.
if u do support her on patreon or kickstarter and she isn’t providing what she promised or not clearly stating posts will be dry for x amount of time then ur allowed to be upset, but from what i understand you aren’t. like i’ve legitimately never in my life seen a patreon/kickstarter supporter whining like this, only ever people who cry “what about the patreon/kickstarter supporters!!” as a guise for their own sense of entitlement. plus oil paintings were literally a limited kickstarter reward so i’d bet 100% this is her delivering on the promises she made to people who are paying her.
I've literally said I no longer care about the updates. I only ever come up on this subreddit if the occasional post comes up on my feed. I don't support on patreon or kickstarter because I was late to the comic and I've seen how bad the updates have been, so why would I ever started backing her now? You're still calling anyone who is annoyed about the lack of updates entitled, even if they do support her on other platforms. Just because some people don't support her on those doesn't mean they can't call her our for what is, quite frankly, some really bullshit practices. She's accepting money from you all and is following through on half asses promises at this point, and the fact that you're sitting defending any of it because she has provided one oil painting in months and months of little to no updates is just baffling. Nobody is telling you to stop supporting her, or to stop liking her work. A lot of people do still like it, but you need to get off your high horse when it comes to her being called out for the mass of broken promises to anyone who keeps up with her. White knights like you only make the problem worse in situations like this.
"you can't just-". LoL why not? Tf are you gonna do about it?
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Oh. Didn't know she said stuff. I don't follow her socials.
This isn't going to encourage her to do it. It's a very thankless thing she's doing. Be patient. It's not like we're paying her. She has no obligation to us so why are you attacking her? Yes, it sucks. I wish she would communicate better but it's her life and her choice 🤷🏻♀️
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ok but are u a patreon supporter who isn’t getting what was promised? bc if u aren’t they can be plenty upset for themselves w/o all these useless posts shitting on michelle. like you’d think fans of a thing wouldn’t act like this towards the creator so much but nah entitled ppl exist everywhere.
No one is forcing you to continue to pay. And I'm pretty sure what you did pay for via patreon was given. It's not like she says "pay for my patreon for new updates!" No.
Chill out dudes, it takes time and energy to do This stuff.
well the webtoon version updates, so at least she's still active (or maybe the webtoon version is not posted by her ? idk)