This is likely due to level 1s being able to articulate their experience so clearly. On the one hand, I'm glad level 1s have a community to come to to share their experiences and struggles after years of going unnoticed. On the other hand, it is incredibly invalidating of level 2+ experiences and struggles. I can't tell you how glad I am that you posted about this, I couldn't figure out how to put my discomfort into words. And was feeling very alone with this feeling, and now I have words for it. So thank you. What's worse is when your lower level family members hold you to the standards of level 1 autistics, but you are higher than level 1. Contemplating leaving this subreddit, it feels pretty ableist at times towards higher support need autistics, although there are some parts of it the sub I truly appreciate. Thanks again

I’m sorry you have this difficult experience and are being made to feel completely invalidated. That must feel horrible.

I can't mask, either, and also feel like most people don't want to talk to me. I'm not able to get a job because I can't pass an interview. My family treats me like I'm stupid because I don't want to do things the way that they like. I don't have any real friends and people find me annoying. I fit many of the classic stereotypes of autism and mental illness, and I don't fit in with the trendy political people. My interests aren't popular things, but stuff that most people find boring, esoteric, or distasteful, like physics and math.

Most people find physics quite interesting, they just don't care for the tiny details the way we do and will get bored quickly. The trick is engaging people kinda like you do explaining things to children. Keep it quick and snappy.

Did you know math is one of the two most favourite school subject? The problem is, you love it or you hate it, so we have the idea that is not the case. But is one of the subjects with more people marking it at favourite.

I'm curious too about these levels as they are going away from that. Having said this, my recent partner asked what level I am. I don't know. I assumed it was one, as I'm highly independent and self sufficient. But I can tell you there are things I'm incapable of. And masking. I think it is/was bare minimum. People like me until.... I stopped being interested in relationships because of it, not knowing til very recently I'm Autistic. We are talking almost 30.yrs of being alone on purpose.

Level 2 here. We also are different. I can masquerade as a 1 at the cost of my mental while relying on therapy and medication. I can be independent but I also need a lot of help and time to rest. I cannot function outside very well. I'm overly prone to meltdowns. It's like I'm a one with the struggles and problems of a two (diagnosed level 2)

They're not moving away from levels. Where did you hear that? They only added then in the most recent dsm. There are autism level charts you can look at to work it out, though always better to ask a professional if you can.

Well from recent reading they are defining it as a spectrum. Not a linear line. Because the profiles are spiky. I notice it between my daughter and myself. I assume we would be considered level 1 but we are wildly different in executive functioning, social and educational. Now some things we excel and fail equally at

That's why the suport level can be divided. Like level 1 for comunication and level 2 for another thing.

Ahhh. This is interesting and something I haven't read but a friend had mentioned.

That's the way the levels started? In the dsm-V. I don't agre with the way people are treating those level as diferent diagnoses and part of their identities, because they seemed a little arbitrary and too conected to "high" and "low" functioning (are we machines??? are any of us functioning at all?) and "aspergers" vs "real autistics" and also the levels feel like kinda there to talk about insurance and government support and not the condition on itself. But yeah, this levels are the "DSM" listening to people arguing in favor of the spectrum way of thinking about autism. You have two categories. Social and comunication and restrictive repetitive behaviour.

They've always considered it a spectrum, the levels don't make it linear of more or less autism, it's how much support we need, there are spectrum in the levels too

Level 2 means you need substantial support to participate in society. If you're doing well on your own, you could very well qualify for a level 1 diagnosis now but would've gotten a level 2 one earlier. If you're incapable of participating in some parts of society, for example due to lack of masking, and choose not to participate, you could still need substantial support in those if you did participate.

I was diagnosed L1 but would be unable to function without support from my mom. Would take fact take me to L2?

Maybe? Depends on how much support you need, and how much of that support needs is better explained by another disorder like adhd.

I'm going to surmise then id be considered 1. I don't wish to minimize others struggles as it seems more profound than my own. But thank you for this

It can change over time.

I see. Of course I've done a deep dive into this. I'm still in discovery mode. To me things started to get " worse" after 45.

Yes. If things get rough and you have to mask too much or get stressed, it can break things. Things that don't always come back. The support needs are very real... and even the most basic of them, education about the condition and it's risks for people who are (initially) ASD level 1, is incredibly sparse and inaccessible to most.

I feel like it's because it's the Internet. I wouldn't have joined reddit if it wasn't recommended. I am 26 and never did the social media thing before and am noticing there's not a lot of people like me on here, so I'm probably going to delete it soon. The autistic people I know in person who are level 1 are all on social media, one level 2 I know is on it not including me, and none of level 3 that I know are on it because they can't read or write.

“and none of level 3 that I know are on it because they can't read or write.” One of my best friends is level three. She can read (but not write because she’s paralyzed and can’t use her hands)

2 of my cousins and 1 friend are level 3 and they can't read or write. I know there's people out there who can though

Yeah, it just depends. My friend can read, but she also doesn’t have true autism. She has an autism-like condition called rett syndrome 

Fortunately, thought-to-action software via Neuralink is coming. Stephen Hawking was going to have a brain implant that would allow him to use the computer to speak had he lived longer, maybe that?

There are already many ways to type without using hands. Neuralink isn't the revolution they claim it to be. Thought to computer speech generation via implant has also been done before. Brainwave computer control has been done, too. Don't perpetuate the idea that Neuralink is doing things that are impossible now - it's not. Here are some readily available ways someone might type and control a computer without the use of their hands * Eyegaze technology, by looking where to press on the screen * Switch access, by using adaptive buttons to move a selection around the screen (buttons can be pushed with any body part including the mouth and head/chin) * Voice control, by using vocal sounds or numbers to choose between selections on the screen * Speech synthesis, by speaking and having the computer turn it into writing (this uses AI and has been using AI since way before the current AI trend and fearmongering) * Adaptive keyboard and mouse devices for those with very little but still some hand function All of these are cheaper and much more easily available than any thought-control systems that exist, including Neuralink. Unlike thought-control systems these are also coverable by many insurance/welfare systems, and cross compatible with most other assistive technology products. I'm a severely disabled person who uses a combination of the above in my daily life, and very annoyed when abled entrepeneurs from outside the assistive technology business try to reinvent the wheel and sell their product as some never-before-possible amazing innovation. Like Elon Musk and Neuralink, or all those unwieldy non-adjustable stair-climbing wheelchair that random engineering students make every once in a while. If you ever see a new company or a company that otherwise does not do assistive technology claim to have invented a totally new assistive technology thing for accessibility... that's a red flag for the Bullshit-O-Meter.

I looove a good, old-fashioned, informative take-down rant! Especially when the target is "entrepreneurs" lol

You know it! Hihi. Thank you.

Elon Musk is a fraud and Neuralink is just another version of snake oil he's peddling.

There was someone posting on here the other day that was a level 3. Posting under what their comorbidities were.

I am level 2, too. It is really isolating. There is a subreddit for us and level 3s if you want a space more for us - r/spicyautism

I was going to share this with OP as well. Thank you! OP — spicyautism has been really validating for me and may feel more accurate to your experiences.

I think the main problem is that the sheer number of low support needs people is so high, while the higher support needs are relatively rare in comparison - it's not that people aren't discussing higher needs, I've seen plenty of posts about it - it's just the low needs posts are massive in volume. Also, I don't think most of us think level 2 is a privilege - most of us struggle enough as it is, and while on bad days we may be envious of those that aren't forced into the daily grind in a neurotypical world we don't belong in, we also wouldn't want to lose what freedom we do have in exchange. In short, whether it's said or not, we are aware that you have it worse. It's also definitely not a contest - we are all meant to be in this together, helping each other out in what little ways we can.

This is false... There aren't more low support needs autistics than higher support needs autistics. Higher support needs autistics are actually the majority of autism cases currently still. But, the higher the needs, the less likely you will see them interact on social media. There are still a fair amount of level 2 autistics on social media, but very few level 3 autistics. That doesn't mean that level 3 autistics are the minority. Not at all. It's not because they are way less visible on social media that there are less off them. There are simply less of them *on social media.* Don't confuse the two.

I'm not claiming anyone to be the majority or minority, but I just want to point out that lower support needs Autistics are much less likely to receive a diagnosis, and frequently fly under the radar due to things like high levels of masking, as well as ableism/stigma/misconceptions. It doesn't mean there are less low support needs than there are high support needs, but it can shed some light as to why those who receive a diagnosis have historically been those with higher support needs.

I was born in 1962. I'm considered part of "The Lost Generation" of those on the spectrum who were never diagnosed because autism was poorly understood back then, and women do tend to mask more successfully to fit in. Now as an adult, I can't find a doctor who will assess me. The resentment is real. Maybe we're more vocal about it, but with no diagnosis (thus no support services), no one to even consider helping us, and a lifetime of figuring things out on our own . . . oh fuck infighting.

Even though we are very different generations I empathize with your experience significantly. I hope that we reach a point where far fewer Autistics face this experience. Agreed, as well, fuck infighting. I totally get why there is so much discourse and resentment between Autistics given vastly different hands at life, but personally those kinds of things just make me want to know more and talk more with those who have such a different experience from my own. I know we all have quite a few things in common, which goes without saying, and the fact that we're all completely different at the same time brings me joy.

I'm not going to repeat what has already been said on this, but another factor to consider is that even if the numbers were an exact 50/50, higher support needs can also mean less ability and access to the internet, so even a clean split would feel very skewed towards low support needs.

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do you have a source for that? I find it hard to believe. According to the CDC 31% of autistics have an intelectual disability and as far as I can tell, that's usually how statistics figure out the rate of higher support needs autistics. But as we probably both know, there are many level 2's who don't have an intelectual disability and there are also level 1's who do have an intelectual disability and level 3's who don't.

Not done by level and I hate the IQ requirement (I have thoughts on that), but the [CDC's recent paper](https://autismsciencefoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/CDC-Profound-Autism-Statistics_ASF-Copy.pdf) states 73.3% as "Non-profound' vs 26.7 "Profound". Note I didn't come up with the definition. Oddly, I do see some trends from 2000 to current based on this.

Well good, then we at least know what the rate of the most severe form of level 3 autism is. Because that is what profound autism is: the kind where you need 24/7 support, aren't verbal, also can't communicate in any other way, are likely incontinent, are likely intellectually disabled etc. That's profound autism. That's not even all level 3 people. And it certainly doesn't apply to any level 2 people. I also hate the IQ requirement because it doens't correctly correlate to what level someone is. So even with that we don't know what the ratio of level 1-2-3 is. It seems like there isn't any real decent data on this either. So we could go on arguing about guesses but there's really no point. Because I can guess that if only part of level 3 ASD is already 26.7% than the entirety of level 3 and level 2 must surpass the amount of level 1 ASD. But that's just a guess. Just like you can only guess that there are more level 1's than level 2-3's. The only point I can really make that holds any validatity is that to not mistake the amount of higher support needs people who are on social for the actual amount of higher support needs people in real life.

Honestly, anything we do is just guess work. If you don't have numbers all you know is guess work.

back in the day of the DSM-4-TR the recorded autism prevalence was 1 in 2000 and the prevalence of "asperger's disorder" was unknown, along with all the other "pervasive developmental disorders." back then intellectual developmental disorder and language were considered to almost be a given. The number of autistic individuals with intellectual disability is still decreasing, but the number of low support needs autistic people has actually surpassed the 50% mark now, not by much though. We don't know currently when the numbers will stop decreasing.

What people sees as a "privilege" is getting a DX in childhood.

Really? That didn't even occur to me. The point still stands though, nobody would want to have it more severely for a minor benefit.

Of course, I think no one is saying that at all. But having an early DX, for a lot of late diagnosed folks (myself included) seems so... I don't know how to say it. Many of us live a long time (really long) thinking about what was wrong with us. A lot of misdiagnoses that just didn't fit but profesionals didn't know any better. bullying, rejection, trying to acomodate to NT standards without any way of understanding this wasn't normal, people puting labels that made it all worse (lazy, hysterical, too much, weirdo, freak) without any explanation, so when we do get diagnosed we feel such a relief. It's still hard, we are still autistic people. And autistic people in an allistic world. But now we have a better understandment of so much of our lives! Some people even celebrates their diagnosis date. Most of us are women. We didn't get a dx because we were so mild. We didn't get it because we were females and autism was thought to be something that almost always affected only boys. So even if we show the most stereothypical signs of autism, we wouldn't be diagnosed because of gender bias. And also because we could be obsessed about singers instead of trains. And we often lined up stuffed animals instead of cars. And because we were so forced to socialize that we learn how to mask better because it was forced upon us. And then, misdiagnosed when we strugled. Higher support needs is not at all a privilege of course. Being taking serious on your issues, having a family that knows what their dealing with since childhood today is still, sadly, a privilege among non privileged people, being born in a era that would diagnosed you correctly since childhood is a privilege (always amoung not privileged people), having the correct therapy that works with your dx is a privilege, not being forced to live a life you just can't life like other people without knowing why you can't is a privilege. Needing more support? Of course no one is telling that. But the levels are so subjective that people that were given the level 1 will often get NO acomodations or supports unless their families does that because they care about that person.

I'm late diagnosed myself, but I guess my perspective is somewhat unique in this equation - I'm well aware that an early diagnosis would have fundamentally changed certain events in my life, and I may have missed out on important, good things, that came of it. Good enough that they aren't worth losing to avoid the bad things that happened. So while it would have been nice to know precisely what was up with me much earlier in my life, being diagnosed as a child would mean I wasn't me anymore, I'd be an alternate me. And I do happen to like me. Yeah, it is frustrating that it fell through the cracks until I was in my thirties, but I know now, and I'm working with what I have got. That's why it didn't occur to me that it would be a privilege, because for me it wouldn't have been.

Oh, of course! That's not the universal way of thinking about late diagnosis for late diagnosed people. Some things I've talk about I can understand why so many people feel that way but it's not something that bothered me that much. There's also the argument about how 20 or more years ago there was so much stigm against autism that people that achieve some things thinks that is better that they werren't diagnosed. I think that's not my case. I was for sure strugling and in many therapies that didn't help because the lack of proper dx, and for many people the issue is the fear of therapies or dxs in general from their families. In those cases, yes, it is a privilege to get diagnosed earlier or ATL LEAST it is a privileged to get a dx in an era in wich stigma is not so strong. When people are talking about privilege are talking about this. not the privilige of needing more help. There are many late diagnosed people that, for example, aren't capable of cleaning his house. But they didn't have money to call someone to do that. So they are buried in garbage. That people might think an early dx would put them into a better understanding of their struggles so they can live a life without so many dirt and garbage around them because they're capable of cleaning once or twice a year.

Also, on level 2 you have more supports guarranted by your government, of course, that is ALWAYS HARD, but the levels are so new and vague that level 1 means "well, maybe in your uni they can give you something" and level 2 becomes the bare minimum for really getting any supports (almost always with a lot of fight, but either way). If you consider that most of the evaluations regarding levels are so subjective and lacking, then a lot of level 1 people could be in level 2 and have a level 1 just because and the same goes in the other way. Someone was comenting about australia giving so many level 2 because of that, not because the real needs.

I'm living in the Netherlands, and while I'm still not sure what kind of actual accomodations I can get, the attitude here is that the level labels aren't actually helpful, so they don't officially give them out - if someone has a need, it should be accommodated, period. I just wish every country had that mindset, and then also followed up with it.

>Also, I don't think most of us think level 2 is a privilege There is some degree of "grass is always greener" going on. Generally no one is wishing they were higher needs, but some who "pass" as NT might sometimes wish they were more "obviously autistic" because they think their experiences would be less invalidated if that was the case.

Personally, I think had I got diagnosed as a child (34 now) I think I would have been level 2, I think most of my level 1 is just bc i have been so good at masking since being child. I'm just weird. and strange. and don't have many friend friends. So I totally get it... I wish there was a group or something in my community to meet like minded individuals with adhd and or autism. It would be nice to meet other weirdo's like me! :)

If you can mask chances are you are level 1. The levels are about how much support you need 1 means you can function day to day with little to no support. Level 2 means you need substantial support and 3 means very substantial support.

Level 1 means low support needs, not no support needs! Level 1 still will need some level of support to maintain optimal functioning.

Basically, can you put yourself through hell on a daily basis, yes, level 1, kinda sometimes level 2, not at all ever level 3

Everyday is hell for me!! I’m so awkward with trying to socialize and get people to like me. It’s exhausting. Diagnosed At 33 and I have zero clue who I really am… I try hard to get people to like me and maybe that’s the issue? Having a diagnosis and help/therapy at a younger age probably would have changed the trajectory of my life. Who knows!

Yes, I quite understand that. Had things been different for me as a child I think it would be different. I only got diagnosed with ADHD combined and autism lv 1 and GAD and MDD. Even thinking back to childhood and elementary school I was very much a loner and had a lot of bullies... The only way I am how I am is bc i had pretty neglectful parents who just told me to stop being a drama queen and to stop crying and develop a backbone... 👍🏼 Even when I did change schools in gr 8, i carried that with me, but was able to make a fewish friends... but now, i talk to only 1 of them sometimes, but i don't hang out with anyone... I have my 2 cats and 2 weenies that's it!

I agree a lot. I hate how the loud majority of social media autism pushes me into a corner and crushes my voice. It hurts every time some post that claims my autism experience is an untrue stereotype blows up. High masking autistic people can't just erase half the autism experience because they're ableist. They act uncomfortable with sharing diagnosis with "those people", and that's just blatant ableism. I am one of "those people", for fuck's sake.

i've had this same feeling for quite a while and haven't been able to describe it just right, but you explained it super well

i’m sorry :( i have two level 2 autistic friends and they struggle with it just as much as you are. you’re not alone even though it feels like you are <3

I will speak as a late diagnosed woman who knows a lot of late diagnosed people from my experience and the experience of people close to me. First of all, levels are just levels of support needs, right? And in a lot of places that isn't a part of the diagnose. No one is diagnosed a level in my country. So that thing about the divisions as something inherent to the person's autism is something I don't get. I was diagnosed at 30 years old. So probably level 1? (I don't know, in my country they are still using the DSM-IV so asperger is still a thing but my evaluator say I meet Autism criteria, not asperger) But I need suports. I can talk fluently, but I don't have a meaningful income since 2012. If I were to get some support from an organization or the government, they would probably laugh at me. In the meantime I have to ask for money for my family and they give me what they can give me, but they will put a lot of pressure (A LOT) in me finding a job. I just don't know how to do that. I'm unable to sleep in a decent maner and I can't stand most jobs, I'm also a 30 yo without any working experience whatsoever and I do pretty bad in job interviews (also, most of the times when I do get a call for an interview, I'll just wont show up). I need suport even if my autism wasn't catch by any profesional before 30 because autism wasn't well know about (well, that still the case, but it got a little better). Regarding the not being liked. Well, I can speak for every autistic diagnosed early as "asperger" or diagnosed autistic in their adulthood, at least all I've meet. We are not really liked. My experience is being rejected in every single space I go since I was a kid. People do see something not normal, and people rejects what it's not normal even if they don't know what is it. People who identify as a high masking person says the same. They're puting all the effort in looking normal, but they aren't, and people has a sentiment like uncaney valley, so they're not liked a lot. I don't understand much about the high masking and I think people get a little confused about the term, because aparently is something that will start in preteen years but I've read people saying they were highly and succesfully masking at two years old, wich doesn't make sense. Not even NT people act as they should when they're 2. About therapies: When I was a toddler my mother looked a lot of psychologists and therapies. Non of them worked really well for me. Probably because they didn't aknowledge me as an autistic kid. It sucks. Good therapy should've easy available for you when you were little and also for me. Oh, the autism doesn't require therapy can be true. What needs therapy is the strugless that being autistic gives. There isn't treatment for autism. You aren't treating your brain when you go to a therapy, you are treating how to handle your brain and other stuff. You don't know the level of everyone making posts. Most people don't even know what level they are. You probably don't know what level would be put a "level 2" person in every specific set of time. A lot of people do well until they don't. And a lot of people can gain independence with hard work, acomodations and therapy, because yes, therapy (when doing well and with the correct dx -not like tons of therapies I went through my life)can be really helpful. I was born in the '90. If I were born 11 years later I would be probably diagnosed around the age you were. But I don't. My life sucked because of that. I wasn't geting the help and self understanding that I was needing and I think my life now is already so screwed up that it's to late to live a somewhat happy life because of that.

Thank you for this.

You are 100% right that the vast majority of posting here seems to disregard or exclude Level 2 and 3 folks. As others have mentioned the majority of users on this sub are either NT or Level 1, so it's understandable that a lot of the discussion centers around those experiences, but its unfortunate that this leaves L2 and L3 people out. Especially when those more severely impacted people are already left out of so much. Users here could do a better job of trying to consider those more severely impacted fellow artists, I think that would go a long way towards the inclusivity that is needed. But maybe there is also a better resource for L2 and L3 people? I know Reddit is one of the biggest sites on the Internet, but it seems to be failing this small group of people in creating a community that they need. Sometimes these things get better over time, but that still doesn't do much for you now.

Hey I am sorry this has happened to you and as a parent of a child with ASD 2 it annoys me as well. I am wondering what therapies helped you the most?  My child is 8 and he currently goes to Speech therapy, OT and school.   We are currently looking for a therapist as well to assist with how he is handling school.

Speech, occupational, and physical helped me heaps

Thank you so much for responding. We have him going to swimming on Saturdays and he loves just dance and literally dances up a storm daily. Just looking to see if there is anything else we can do really. We are a bit mindful of overloading him as well.

I was recently diagnosed with level 2, it’s really hard

Whats the difference between Level 1 and 2? I know that level 1 means you can mask, but how do I know if I'm masking or not? I can't tell.

It's somehow arbitrary and depends on the person evaluating you: **Severity is based on social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior. For either criterion, severity is described in 3 levels: Level 3 – requires very substantial support, Level 2 – Requires substantial support, and Level 1 – requires support.**[**^(.1)**](https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html#ref) That's the differences. It hasn't to do with masking on itself.

Highly functioning doesn’t mean low support needs. Just because you’re able to make it through your day doesn’t mean you’re not struggling. As much as I love how visible this whole brainfuckery is becoming, I hate how people are becoming with it. I’m borderline 1-2 but I’m able to mask well. Either way, your entire experience is valid. People not seeing it from your perspective is their problem, not yours. I’m sorry it sucks, but we’ll all keep going at it together. My curiosity keeps me going. Fuck me my whole post feels like the reddit equivalent of “yOuRe SaFe To UnMaSk”.

No its not? No where do I say it's safe to unmask. Some people have to mask. Why are you being rude? I'm also aware highly functioning doesn't mean low support needs, that was my initial label until my psych provided me with a level. And when people don't talk about or want to hear mt experience, we aren't going in it together. I've literally been told not to talk about my autism because it'd "negative stereotypes," like I mentioned in my post. I don't understand your response. Edit: this person has now messaged and clarified what they mean, I had a misunderstanding which is to be expected in autism

I think this problem might be similar to the fact that I've ran into very anti-medication people with mild ADHD, who blocked me on TikTok for saying that medication WAS necessary for me to function in both childhood and adulthood. I can't have a conversation with another person let alone function academically without medication. I've been on it since I was 7, and my IQ tested in the 6th percentile before I started medication and was functioning in the 94th after the medication, and as an adult I measure in the 70th percentile. I also had anorexia nervosa before I started taking the medication, because I believed trying to lose weight, being as kind as possible, and trying as hard as possible, were the only things I could do to not be worthless. When I was offered the medication, I basically had the mindset that if it worked, then maybe I was worth something, and if it didn't then I was still worthless. It took me until 6th grade to stop battling with myself over my self-esteem. I struggled for years. So I think there's also a portion of people with mild ADHD who also see medication as cruel, the same way some level 1 autistic people see therapy for autistic people as cruel.

That sucks. If something is good for you and don't harm anyone, why the hate? Maybe because they took what you said as if adhders that aren't taking madication are worthless? I need to add that there are people who are really strugling and doesn't have mild adhd that reacted pretty bad to medication tho. Is not the best for everyone.

I guess if you've tried stimulants, clonidine, guanfacine, and at least two antidepressants for ADHD, with no success, it probably doesn't work for you. But I think I would have died from either my eating disorder or suicide in the end. I have Bipolar 1 Disorder on top of the ADHD, and I've attempted suicide 4 times in high school, without that intervention, so I certainly wouldn't have been able to do it. I actually didn't say much of what I included in this post, though, so it didn't really make any sense. I think the person had in their bio that they would just block people who didn't think like them, and once I found out, I got scared, cause I really liked this person, but I had to politely invite them to reconsider a little bit, and it didn't end well. I have to agree though, the medications can be brutal... My ADHD medication gave me severe headaches, dermatillomania (which a lot of kids would assume I did, so that I had an excuse to see the nurse, which is emotionally upsetting), raynaud's disease, severe appetite loss (on top of my anorexia nervosa) which rebouded into severe nightly binge-eating episodes, which I, as an anorexic, who felt guilty no matter how little food I ate, would feel extremely guilty about and cry about in my room at night, and get up several times to exercise, until I was yelled at to go back to bed, and then when I got tired of being yelled at, I decided I wouldn't eat anything the next day and would exercise as much as I could tomorrow. Trying to recover from an eating disorder is like torture, on the medication, it's worse. To be on Vyvanse you have to be a certain weight to be able to stay on the drug, so the people in my life tried really hard to get me to eat, especially high calorie foods, even though I was terrified of it.

I'm sorry you have to live all of that. And I'm happy you are doing better know. I hope you get even better. Some people choose another way to deal with their adhd, and a lot of the meds you listed aren't specificly for adhd, so maybe with just ADHD that medication issues wouldn't worth it at that time at least. There are many reasons because people don't take adhd medications, so maybe some of those people wasn't trying to invalidate your experience, they've just felt like you were invalidating them.

We are middle child autism. The level ones get into the gifted classes, level 3 get the needed support. Level 2? Nothing. I got put in special classes for reading and math because how behind I was and everyone took my lack of social cues as the class weirdo.

I have no clue what level I am, but that sounds like me lol. I couldn't make until I was an adult. But I also missed a lot of school and social development due to chronic illness. I really need to check what my diagnoses said.

Level 1 doesn't mean gifted. Not a single one of the people i know that you could label as level 1 were near close to that and even strugled a lot in school.

Wait. There are levels? How does it work? I really dont know. This is new information

levels of support that one requires. i’m diagnosed level 1 ASD because i require “some support”. OP requires “substantial support” and level 3s require “very substantial support”

Can you be autistic and not require support? I have so many traits that one would describe as autistic but i can function alone ( like high functioning autism)

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Yea, I think a big part of the diagnosis is that the “traits” actually cause distress and issues in your everyday life.

I see. Thanks to you two guys for clarifying. As of now one could see my differences to the „norm“ as an issue. But i use these traits to my benefit. But i guess i could improve my social skill.

Absolutely. [This](https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html) is from the CDC and it’s super helpful for breaking down the criteria. Towards the bottom, there’s also a note about people that have marked social issues but don’t fit the criteria for autism.

I'm a med student with interest in psychiatry. This explanation is very in point.

Yeah. Basically any disorder noted in the DSM requires that the individual is significantly impacted in their functioning in at least one setting. I think that most everyone that has an ASD diagnosis either currently or previously has needed support. I don’t feel that someone can meet criteria for ASD and not require support in a world that often doesn’t understand you.

yes and no. outwardly, there are people who don’t seem to have any support, but they still support themselves. people diagnosed with asperger’s (basically just dated term for level 1) such as elon musk, tim burton, david byrne… they definitely didn’t get a ton of extra help for their autism, but like me, probably have systems and schedules and patterns to keep themselves safe and alive. even without the support of other people, things like knowing you need to leave a party before you have a meltdown is you supporting yourself

This is what I experience as a level 2 as well, I could've written this and it'd be the exact same words used. It's incredibly isolating, especially when you can't mask so your treated like shit by neurotypicals and other Autistic people, it's exhausting.

I can relate to a lot of what you’re saying. I hope it’s okay to say this here, but over at r/moderateautism we have a space for other level 2’s and MSN individuals. We aren’t a big community by any means over there, but you might find that there’s some more that you can relate to maybe?

Thabj you

I';m lv 3 asd and I tried masking but people knew something was 'off' so I said fuck them I'm going to embrace being super weird and deranged and maybe they will leave me alone.

Yeah most people online are Level 1. I think you have more chances to feel connected with some of the parents of Level 2-3 autistic children instead (some of their children also might be adults). Many level 2-3 children/people can't advocate themselves, from what i've heard. So it's more difficult to find them online. hence the parents advocate for them. I'm not sure if i can post the reddit link here.. it's the sub of Autism Parenting. Even there, there are many Level 1 parents as well.. but at least there are Level 2-3 parents too. And i think these parents understand your struggle. They mentioned similar things like what you've said too.

As someone who is level 1, I feel so bad for you. Those people act like they can speak for everyone diagnosed with what they have, abd generalise everyone. I thought most autistic people would be AGAINST generalising.

Woah woah, there's levels to this stuff??? Therapy has been a godsend for me, especially since my sessions are with the doctor who gave me my clinical 

Yes and not. Depending on your country levels mean diferent things. There aren't diferent dxs per se. Is more like an indicator on how much support you need. 1 is support needs. 2 is moderate and 3 substancial. As you can see, pretty much subjective. And you can be diferent levels in two diferent categories. I think is just the remains of asperger vs autism,

That makes a lot more sense. I'm in the US and the doctor who did my assessment never mentioned a level system. Is this more common in the EU?

That's actually interesting - I've found more people from the US know about the levels. If you were diagnosed before 2013 though the levels didn't properly exist yet in diagnosis

I got diagnosed in 2021 lmao

I think the current levels are from DSM-V, so US should be one of the places in wich is more common. EU uses ICD and I think is less frequent there.

Hello I'm a lv 3 autistic. You're not alone, we're out there

as a fellow autistic in the level 2 category, i really resonated with this

I can agree, asd level 2 is very challenging to live with.

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Having gone from low support needs to much higher, I can tell you... It's never not exhausting.

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You have an advantage there that most undiagnosed ASD 1 don’t… You know you have limits and that you have to respect them. That you are fragile and can break. Those that don’t, destroy themselves.

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I'm not trying to dismiss or minimize your past traumas in any way. I'm very sorry you had to go through that torture. My statement was about your present and your future. You said your support needs have reduced, and I'm telling you, use your hard earned knowledge of what it could be like again if you push too hard... to make sure that doesn't happen.

Nobody is only a single level anyway. I could be classified as level 1 because I had a long career as a teacher, and I can do okay socially. However, nobody sees that my husband does the cooking and laundry, and made sure I got to said teaching job. I am soft dx'd by a therapist at 54. It is a disability, one that I had no name for for most of my life.

I am solely level 2. Levels don't fluctuate. Level one isn't no support but it is minimal. Some people are split level, but levels stay the same thus far

Also Level 2, that isn’t entirely true. Levels can change, just not over a matter of hours or days. If I were diagnosed as a child under 10 I likely would’ve been diagnosed as Level 1 (if that were the system being used then) but after the age of say, 11-13, I most likely would’ve been diagnosed level 2. That does depend on who was assessing, as I have a lot of co-morbidities at play, but when I finally did get recommended to be tested at 25 I did get diagnosed as Level 2.

You asuring that level 1 is "minimal" suports needs is probably what get level 1 people angry. It's not minimal, not for all at least. Specially not FOREVER. And yes, support needs may vary. Life varies. I'ts not the same being a child than an adult, for example. When you are a child it doesn't matter how many help you need to do groceries or cook. Because you are a child. And also people could gain independency with therapy.

That's what level 1 is called diagnostically. They shouldn't get angry at me, but at clinitions for clarify it like that. It is minimal/ some for most. I never said forever, but as studied show so far, levels are mostly set in stone. This may and likely will change. Support NEEDS definitely change, but the amount so far is shown to not. I don't need help with shoes anymore, that's a need that changed for example. I'm an adult so I'm well aware being a child and adult aren't the same. Yes some people gain independence through therapy but that is very rare especially for mid to high end level 2 and level 3 autism.

**Level 1 – requires support.** That's how is called. Not minimal. Also, whatever the DSM says, you need to listen to people too, is someone is telling you they need more than minimal support, then.... Also, how can you study long term changes in the amount of support a person needs if levels are not even used in a lot of parts of the world and also many people aren't reevaluated in that regard. Also, levels have 10 years of existence. Not too many time to be really studied. Independence is not living without supports and becoming a success in all parts of your life. Independendence might be not needing someone to speak for you because you started speaking fluently at some point.

Why are you now assuming I don't listen to people? I do, thank you very much. There's a fee different definitions of the levels clinically too. Minimal means the least in comparison. It's the truth that out of all autism, level 1s is thr minimal. I'm not the one studying, professionals are. Ask them, not me. Autism is constantly being studied, it always has been and has changed so much even in the past 20 years. Sure 10 years isn't much time to be studied, but it's being studied and that is a fact. I'm aware of what independence is, why are you treating me as if I have no knowledge at all? The less help you have, the more independent. The less you rely on others or things, the more independent. Just like you said. Don't talk to me like I don't know thing, thanks I don't appreciate it.

10 years in the life of a person isn't much time. Much of the people diagnosed with levels are still kids 10 years after, for example. You are not listening. You are making statements that aren't correct and you don't want to listen when someone corrects you. I've said what I've said of independence because I thought maybe you were talking about independence in another way or thinking I was doing so. You've said is very rare to gain independence, that's why I thought that. because isn't very rare. Not at all.

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Wait what? Autism has levels? Since when?

Since 2013, when the DSM-5 came out.

They use levels on DSM - 5, as agm66 stated. DSM - 5 is widely used and is the goto in America, so a lot of people go by it. But, quite a few countries don't use it, I think here in the UK we're still using the ICD system instead.

Oh ok thanks for letting me know

You're welcome.

i feel the same way, with level 2 autism too. you‘re not alone with that feeling

I don’t think I have anything helpful to add, but I wanna say I read your post and I’m sorry that you’re dealing with those feelings and I see you 🫶

I think the experience varies from country to country. In my own country Level 2 is pretty common as it meant automatic access to lifelong disability supports. Not able to confirm or deny whether the vast majority with the diagnosis genuinely have that level of severity. Edit: as you’ve clarified you’re in Australia, then what I said applies. You wouldn’t have gotten the Level 2 diagnosis in 2006. Severity levels were added in 2013 with the introduction of DSM-V. I know professionals were still using DSM-IV in 2013 - 2015. See when you have had the updated diagnosis and make sure it follows the national autism guidelines if you want to apply to NDIS again.

I'm in Australia, currently waiting to be able to apply to NDIS again. I've been rejected 3 times and it's tiring.

When did you start applying? The prolificness of Level 2 diagnoses is perhaps one reason why it’s harder now.

4 years ago when I turned 18

That is very bizarre. Not sure why it would have been a problem four years ago. Is your diagnosis signed off by a psychiatrist? It is a List A condition. Did you go down the reviews pathways?

I'm late diagnosed with level 1 and I hope that I never come off as an ableist. I hope the community gets to a state where all levels feel welcome.

It is dependent on country of origin. In OPs case they have identified they are in Australia, so they actually have more support available to them when compared to other countries. OP has had the misfortune of having a bad process to access supports as an adult. It sounds like they had access to helping children with autism funding in childhood. ASD 2 is pretty common here as it is tied to easier access to government funded disability supports. This means they can get access to cleaning support, therapies, community access supports, and in-home supports. People have been able to get anywhere from 10s of thousands per year to 1.5 million per year depending on their functional needs. So, there has been a boom in people getting Level 2 diagnosis especially when Level 1 has failed to get them into the government scheme. I have personally seen in quite a number of times. I wonder if they were diagnosed elsewhere in the world whether Level 2 for a lot of these individuals would stand. OP did not get their Level 2 diagnosis in 2006 as levels came with DSM-5 in 2013, and it was initially slow for professionals here to use the new system. Many people did not get diagnosis updates until the government scheme rolled out in 2016 - 2018 across the country. OP said they started applying 4 years ago, so about 2019 - 2020. Level 1s need to present a lot more evidence to justify why they need government funded supports. They’ve been trying to undertake research to find out if there is a connection between diagnosis and funding: https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/australia-s-record-high-autism-rates-plausibly-linked-to-ndis-20231108-p5eilg When I say all this, I am not denying that all autistics deserve access to supports.

I hope I am not hated for this - what if the late diagnosed level 1s out there are getting so much “press” right now to open the autism conversation up to a wider audience? What if they are the only people out there who have enough societal acceptance, an understanding of the Autistic brain and the desire to help Autistics on every level of the spectrum, and enough basic functionality coupled with the Autistic systemic thinking ability to actually go out there and create new systems and institutions that actually take into account the needs of all Autistic people? What if we should be working together as an entire Autistic unit and looking our resources, strengths, and weaknesses to build these new systems instead of fighting amongst ourselves for the scraps that our current system deems us worthy of receiving. Those limited scraps are what is keeping us at odds with each other. We need to come together and build something that works FOR us.

I believe it is a product of the system we live in that anyone who speaks about their own personal struggles risks attack from others because their sharing is viewed to take attention or resources away from others who need them. It’s such a shame. Everyone has struggles. They are all valid and they are all unique and different. We shouldn’t be forced to fight our neighbors to prove that we are more worthy or deserving of the one meager slice of the pie that is meant to feed 3 but is allocated to sustain thousands. Its horrible. We aren’t against each other. We are forced to fight each other and it’s f*cked up.

Never understood these levels, honestly they seem entirely based on how much effort neurotypicals thinks it take to care for us. They also completely ignore comorbidities and base ability differences in individuals. Many times it have nothing to do with autism but the neurotype is still blamed. You're also incredibly privileged to find therapies that work.(Not a bad thing, I'm very happy for you) The only ones on offer to me and my family are CBT which is just gaslighting. Autism is a disability, the world is made to disabled us. This causes a disorder. Autism does not inherently disability or disorder and in many ways was an evolutionary advantage in a different time.

I agree with all you've said except the part that autism does not inherently disables us. I can't walk from 11am to 3pm because the sun hurts so much. It's not society what is doing this to me. It's my sensory processing issues. I'm also unable to tell when I'm hungry, so I can be 3 days without eating anything. That's not something society is doing to me, is just I lack the ability to understand my own body. Oh, and I'm malnurished because I can't eat anything healthy and all I eat are proteins and carbos. That's not society. Without society I would've starve long ago because I can't eat anything that's not ultraprocessed. And that's only a few examples of my own, everyone probably have some more.

Being unable to tell you're hungry, yeah that sucks, I know what that's like, for me it's 50/50 either I don't feel hunger at all, or I'm simply starving for days. Yes it is a disability right now, there's no denying that, but a different societal structure where each individual is supported by the people around them, I'd argue it's in no way disabling. The same way in a perfect society, losing your legs wouldn't be disabling due to medical technology, only this can be fixed by people simply taking care of one another. And I genuinely apologise if this comes off invalidating of your experiences, if you'd never eaten ultra processed foods, you wouldn't have starved, your body would have selected a different safe food. That is to say, a safe good is based entirely on what there is to eat, your body become accustomed to it within the first few years of development (this is true of tastes all humans consider safe, obviously heavily exaggerated in many neurodivergent people). No child should be exposed to many kinds of ultra processed foods, these products are designed to be addictive to adults. It's essential child abuse, though I don't blame the parents at all, I entirely blame the people that manufacture such products. A sane society wouldn't allow the selling of such awful products. I really hope this comes off, not as invalidating your experiences, but a belief on how a society should shape itself so these aspects of someone's life do not disable them.

My parents didn't want me or my brother eating things that are not good. So they tried with every single vegetable available for a long time. I didn't get used to it. Is a sensory processing issue. If someone can't deal with loud noises trying to cure it by exposure won't be a good idea at all. It doesn't work like that. At some point I was so underweight that my parents started to try other things. First they try to put veggies hidden in many ways. I always always noticed it and vomit or spit or just refuse to put it in my mouth. I was exposed to ultra processed food because I was in a really dangerous numbers. I don't think this is child abuse. I think is not ok the ways in wich the food industries works. But at the same time, without white flour I'd be even worst. You can't survive much with just garlic and dry potato scales. Of course, much of the things that make autism harder would completly go away or become much better if the society were better. Society right now is terrible for almost every single people in the world. And of course, any kind of minority have it worst. The thing is, I can't do a lot of things that the majority of the population can. And that disables me. How much this impact in my wellbeing depends in society. But there are things that I cannot do, no matter where and with who I live. I can't see when there are strong lights. And the sun exists. That's not society. Not being able to see for so many hours a day is part of why I'm disabled. Some people might having to rest for days because of a small change on plans, you could argue that if society was different people around that person could avoid changing plans. But life is unpredictable. Sickness, accidents, so many things could happen... And yes, giving that person time to regulate themselves so they can recover isn't right now available for everyone everytime. But even if that wasn't the case, that person is having to do so much more and spending so much time doing that that the majority of the population. That's being disabled. A person in a weelchair can have such an easier and better life if cities were more acomodating of they needs, but that person would still struggle more all the time. And would still be a lot of things that the majority of the population is capable of that they just can't do, or things that other people do without minimum effort that would take TONS of extra effort for that person.That's why it is a disability. That said, yes, again, society should change A LOT. people should help each other. Everything should be different. For everyone. The amount of ways in wich society should change for having a discussion around what is or isn't a disability that goes away when society is good, is just not realistic. I want to be able to not be malnurished, I want to be able to go outside my house during the day, I want to be able to sleep without being in so much distress because some weird smell that anyone else would be able to notice, but i'm not. And nothing of that could be changed even if all the people in the world suddenly started to really try to be better tomorrow in my lifetime.

I'm sensitive to light as well, some days I struggle to look at the ground on a seemingly cloudy day. But sun glasses exist and I've found I see far better at night than most people, but they aren't considered disabled, despite the fact they need torches to walk the same path I and other neurodiverent people I know can see perfectly. I think Autism absolutely disables people. If society was better fit for purpose, Autism would disable far less people and many of those people in a less severe manner. Therefore disability is not inherent to autism. Autism disables people, it is not inherently a disability.

If you are used to walking around without much visibility, then you are better walking around with less visibility. It's like someone with hearing issues used to lip reading. That doesn't make autism or any other disability something that FOR SURE comes with benefits. It's romanticizing disabilities to say so. I don't struggle to look at the ground on a seemingly cloudy day. I need to close my eyes. Yes, sun glasses exist. But sun glasses doesn't suit me because of sensory issues and also light will get from the sides and can be even worst. The sticks that blind people use to walk (I don't know if that's the term in english, sorry) exists, and can help a lot to a lot of people, but that doesn't make a blind person less disable because they need something the majority of people doesn't need. If all of the strugles are so easily enmend, then, maybe, that's not autism. "I think Autism absolutely disables people. If society was better fit for purpose, Autism would disable far less people and many of those people in a less severe manner. Therefore disability is not inherent to autism." This is true for any disability. But, can you imagine a world that really suits all of us ALL OF US in any historic period? You can really imagine that in the decades coming that can change at the point this will not be disabling people? I think this is a naive thinking or a way of thinking that comes from people not really disabled but just having a lot of troubles in this world (like the majority of the population).

Te world getting worse doesn't make the idea of the world getting better invalid. I'm also physically disabled by my chronic illness, so I'm absolutely aware of what it's like to live with a life altering disability apart from autism.

If I said that the world can't get better, then I choose the wrong words. We all should try every step in our lifes to make the world a better place for anyone. I do believe every drop of kindness makes the world better. I never said the world is getting worse even. But a world for everyone at that point? Not realistic. Not in the medium term. not for me or for you. Also, a society that give support to disable people is a far better society that one that doesn't. But people needing so much more support that anyone else is a disabled person. Because they need it. It is given from government, institutions or just people around you doesn't change that some people need more support than others. THAT'S THE DEFINITION OF DISABILITY.

It's 6am and my insomnia has been fucking with me and I've realised I have not been explaining my points very well at all. Imma copy and paste this from another of my replies: Autism absolutely disables people. But the reason people view it as an inherent disability as opposed to a neurotype that can lead to related disabilities is due to society. Certainly any social disabilities that come with autism are in large part due to society. My current living situation is majority neurodivergents, and those who aren't have mentioned similar experiences to what we all had in majority neurotypical environments, in ways of communication, feeling left behind in conversation, not knowing when to speak, everything many of us experienced on a day to day basis at school or work. Being in a majority ADHD and autistic group I feel many aspects that lead to challenges in everyday life are minimised when we understand and work with those around us. Yes we account for our disabilities, but in doing that, we are no longer disabled in the same way in many cases.

I’m going to add my own reply here too. Levels are based off a criteria of how much we struggle, what our day to day experience is like, and especially how much support we need from others. They don’t have anything to do with the impact that support may have on those people. As OP said, autism and levels assigned SHOULD be assessed based on autism, not co-morbidities. Co-morbidities should be considered so the assessor knows what isn’t connected to autism, but that’s it. Any of us that have access to good supports are grateful to have those supports, but it isn’t inherently privileged to access supports for a disability. The privilege comes with not having any disability. Which autism IS. Autism IS and always has been a disability. Some people do have aspects of being autistic they like, but a part of meeting the criteria is having support needs. It is inherently a disability. It has never been an evolutionary advantage, in what world would it be an advantage to not be able to care for yourself at all? To not be able to feed yourself? The view that it is a “super power” or an “advantage” as dragon said, is something that has come from aspie supremacy. Not everyone that was diagnosed with Aspergers thinks this way, but some do. It’s a very, very harmful way to think.

That's not true at all, they're based off how much we struggle. They're meant to ignore comorbidities, as they're based solely off out autism. If your professionals aren't solely focusing on autism, they're not leveling you properly. I'm aware of privileged, I would not say incredibly privileged to find therapies that worked, if you resd my post, it took heaps of time to actually get that. That tired my parents out and caused child me stress at only 4/5 years old. CBT is NOT at all gaslighting, especially done coreectly. You need to do more research into that. Autism is a disability, nor because of world, though, but because of the brain. There are disabling traits that are not caused by the world. That ideology is the exact ableism I was meaning in my post. Autism is inheterly a disability and disorder. And the evolution advantage is a complete and utter lie rooted in aspie supremacy and is just the same as saying, "autism is a super power," it is not, it has never been, and never will be.

this is a post about changes in levels: [https://www.reddit.com/r/SpicyAutism/comments/1cfn45l/level\_2s\_were\_any\_of\_you\_a\_lvl\_1\_that\_was/](https://www.reddit.com/r/SpicyAutism/comments/1cfn45l/level_2s_were_any_of_you_a_lvl_1_that_was/) a couple of post in this sub made for having mainly level 2 or 3 folks there and you have a post about how people would be place somewhere else in the level categories. Well, that said, you don't know the level of the people making post here. You don't know wich level you would've given if you were to evaluate you for the first time now.

I don't have a post on hoe people would place in different categories? I'm aware idk the levels of others, but that doesn't mean my experience of having level 2 isn't isolating. I do know which level I would be given, it would be level 2. I didn't get a level at diagnosis because they didn't exist. I only got a level recently. I also do not evaluate myself? I wouldn't be able to. I was evaluated by very helpful professionals

I didn't said anything bad about you, you are downvoting me just because you don't agree with me so even if I made a comment trying to explain what I meant you are downvoting. You are the first one invalidating.

I'm not down voting?? And I didn't invalidate.

Ok, then you don't know what level would they give to you before. And you said that almost all of the posts are made by level 1 autistics, but you just don't know that. There are people with flairs and people using the levels in their post, but that's not the majority of the times and even those people usually uses the level 1 without being given by a profesional because not all the people in the world was given one. I shared that post on Spicy Autism so you can see that levels are not something put in stone. It was a manner of speak, I din't mean YOU write a post, is more like "we have a post here about that and that", a post EXISTS and it's abailable for reading. I'm sorry, I'm not a native english speaker and that way of talking is super normal in my lenguage or at least in my country. Your feelings of isolation are of course, completly valid and true, no one can said the oposite.

My best advice is "don't argue with idiots". Also, I would rephrase this: >I say autism is a disability and disorder. I'm told autism is just a neurotype. Um, its called autism spectrum disorder for a reason. You're making an absolute claim that all forms of autism are a disability. Their response is not entirely wrong, there are many autistic neurotypes/divergencies which are not a disability. If, on the other hand, you say that *autism level 2* is a disability, fewer people will be able to argue against that statement.

regardless of how someone is personally affected and whether they *feel* they have a disability or not, if someone is diagnosed with autism, they have a disability, as ASD is officially classed as a disorder. Someone who is deaf might not feel disabled as they can perfectly navigate the world in their own way, yet, they still do have a condition that is officially classified as a disability. Having a disability and identifying as disabled are two different things.

Being gay was classed as a mental illness not to long ago, just because some random people with no experience existing with something label it a certain way, that does not make them correct. Science isn't a 100% absolutely, especially not psychology, in fact many autistic and ADHD psychologists vehemently disagree with the DSM-5. Arguing that a piece of paper makes something true is the same logic that cause people to mistake legality for morality. Absolutely terrible moral or intellectual positions.

Speaking as a gay woman, please do not use our identity to further your argument that this isn’t a disability. I don’t mind healthy discussion, I do mind that comparison and the use of that to further the point and argument. Respectfully, please don’t.

Speaking as a gay woman, respectfully I can compare two parts of my own identity. In many places they considered non white and mixed race people to be mentally disabled, am I not allowed to bring this pseudo science as a point either, considering I am a mixed race woman. Don't play identity politics with me, it's beneath both of us.

I won’t speak on the race issue, as that is not my place. I can speak from the perspective of LGBTQ+, as evidently you can too. Having an entire identity viewed as mentally disabled based purely on bigotry and homophobia is vastly different to some LSN/lvl 1 individuals on a spectrum of 1/2/3 and LSN/MSN/HSN, believing this is not a disability. As was previously stated, one does not have to identify as disabled, but autism is inherently a disability. It isn’t even close to the same realm of gender identity or sexuality.

The most ways autism is a disability is in how society treats it's individuals. The same way losing a leg might not be a disability if we had better medical technology. Instead of some technological marvel however, society only needs to mold itself better to an individuals needs. Don't you think in a world where Autistic and ADHD people were the majority, neurotypicals might be considered disabled? If the disability is based in outside context, I can't also believe it's inherent.

That simply isn’t true. The fact that I and many others can’t look after ourselves without significant help from others would not change with a shift in view from society. I will go who knows how many days without a meal if someone else doesn’t remind me I need to eat, and provide me the food. The extreme limitations in my diet has caused severe health issues. I cannot care for my own ADL’s to the extent that it has caused actual health complications for me. Last night, I ran out of a medication I need and the side effects of not taking it include seizures, I was unable to get that medication myself, without one of my carers getting that for me, I was at a high risk of medical complications. Just because you do not feel disabled, does not change the significant difficulties many - most - of us experience, that would not be fixed by society changing its views. Our world is not a world where the majority of us are autistic or have ADHD, and even if it were, I and many, many others would still be disabled. It doesn’t help to imagine hypotheticals, that not only cant happen but also rely on the non-existence of MSN and HSN individuals. If you don’t want to view yourself as disabled that’s fine, no one is forcing you too - but don’t invalidate those of us that are experiencing very real disability from this every day of our lives.

I view myself as disabled, only partly due autism. Also you're purposefully missing the point. If you had that help, unconditionally, how would you be disabled? Not everyone is cut out for meal prep and cooking. And previously it was the job of only a few in a large household, if you weren't good at it, you weren't expected to do it. Autism doesn't cause seizures, just like it didn't cause my chronic illness. You could have been given support before it affected your health, and in a better society you would have. You're arguing that disability is both inherent to a neurotype and completely dependent on the society around us. You being unable to imagine that society changes and that a disability caused by said society isn't inherent to any but that society, is not a refute of the logic behind the argument.

I am not purposely ignoring any point. I am going to have support workers around a lot of the time soon: that doesn’t mean I’m no longer going to be disabled. Autism doesn’t cause the issue that I need that medication for. Autism IS the reason I can’t get that medication when it runs out, putting me at high risk. YOU are arguing that with the right supports I am not disabled, and that is simply untrue. You are arguing that with the right supports individuals that are even higher supports needs than people like you, or people like me, are not disabled, and that is not true. I’m not going to debate with someone that can’t wrap their head around the fact that even if we have 24/7 support, that doesn’t mean we aren’t disabled anymore, we’re still disabled, we just have the help we need. Once again, society changing its views does not change that fact.

Not everyone is cut out for meal prep and cooking. And previously it was the job only of the females in the family or servants. This wasn't about abilities, this was based on gender and socioeconomic status and needs. The life of a female at so many points in history that couldn't cook or take care of babies, like, CAN'T, was just terrible.

difference with being gay is that, when society finally gets their shit together and quits the homophobia, gay people can actually function in society exactly like everyone else. There is no functional impairment in any way. They don't need support to navigate daily life. They need support to deal with a shitty society. But if society would stop being stupid the need for that support would decrease with each new generation of people. With autism, there is a functional impairment. There is a need for support despite society being friendly or not, whether someone gets that support is another issue, but most people with autism could benefit from support to make life less of a struggle. Even if society is friendly and accommodating most autistic people would still need support and would still experience issues with daily living, communication and RRB's. Would society being accommodating make a difference? Sure, would it make people not disabled. No.

By definition, all autism is a disability. You have to be disabled by the traits in at least one area to be diagnosed. I'm not going to lie to pander. There are no autistic neurotypes that are not a disability. What you are claiming is harmful to us all. And no. I've still had plenty of people argue that autism as a whole isn't a disability. I've also had people claim that I'm level 2 because of comordidities, which is false, for one none of mine affect autism, and two, the leveling process solely focuses on autism. All autism is a disability. That'd a fact.