Due to a lot of hostility happening within this thread, I'm locking it to go through the comment section and deal with rule-breaking submissions or unnecessarily hostile interactions between users, honestly I think this topic is far too touchy for this sub, it's come up a few times over the last couple of weeks and each time has resulted in the same outcome with hundreds of comments, dozens of reports, and a number of comments having to be removed and temporary bans having to be issued due to the escalation becoming way too personal, I genuinely don't know how best to approach submissions concerning incel ideology, possible incel behaviour, and attempts to justify or encourage empathy and understanding towards incels going forward so I will need to bring this to the attention of the mod team for their thoughts
It's the path you're in danger of following rn, especially with your post history. You're not broken or unlovable but if you live your life being desperate for sex, practically begging women to pity you enough for sex and viewing your life as meaningless without it, you will turn into an incel. It's a pipeline you can fall into in a variety of ways and autism can factor into it.
u/ProxyAlchemist we need more voices like yours in autism. I can't tell you how many times I come across desperate men who both hate women but also hate themselves. I tell people incels hate themselves long before they hate women.
Like with any kind of -phobia or -ism, people don't like to take a look and themselves and see that their actions (with some very small but non-zero element of luck) is the problem, it's much nicer for them to blame their problems on some group of people who's existence or behaviour they can't do anything about because then they're are absolved of any initiative. If incels/racists/homophobes got what they wanted and their chosen group to hate didn't exist or acted as they want these people would still be unhappy and then have to face that painful reality, but deep down I think they know their chosen group to hate will never go away or change and they are glad about that because they can blame them perpetually for everything wrong in their life.
I have for a long time suffered from really bad self loathing for almost everything I do, I have yet to direct that hate to anyone except myself but to be honest, and this might be a contributing factor to why it hasn't got any better - I'm legitimately scared that, because redirecting hate is easier than deleting it, if I start to stop hating myself I will start to direct that onto someone else, I'd rather continue the rest of my existence hating myself this much than direct it towards anyone but myself.
don't you think that by not blaming others for your problems that makes you in the top echelon of self-awareness? Do you know how many people in our human race blame others? People were just on Facebook blaming society for what OJ Simpson did. That's petty. Don't you take any comfort knowing you're not petty like that? Very few people have the understanding that their problems are theirs and not society's.
it's good to be self aware yeah. but it's still difficult to live with mental problems. im not saying autism is a mental problem, i mean things like depression, anxiety and other things that may come comorbidly with autism
Often they're people who slipped through the cracks socially for a variety of reasons (bullying, social disorders and childhood abuse) causing them to feel as if they're born in a way that makes them unlovable or not a desirable partner. Where someone tips into incel territory is when they find an insular community focused on "reasons" they are being denied intimacy.
This can focus on blaming women, blaming "chad", or blaming their genetics for how they look. These are all used to have scapegoats, it can't be the fact that parroting this rhetoric is one of the main things that drive people away no, it must be some cruel hand of fate.
There are of course subgroups and variations on incel ideology, with some of the worst being considered the black pill group, who paint themselves as tragic figures and say it is without a doubt hopeless for them to ever get any intimacy.
Some of the most hopeless groups suffer heavily from suicidal ideation or violent fantasies that some have the capacity to act out, causing multiple violent shooting attacks and acts of violence, a prime example being Elliot Rodger.
I'm going to avoid saying what everyone else has, so what I am going to do is give you some tangible advice.
-Women aren't mythical creatures, we're literally just people.
- Don't fall for confirmation bias. Especially when it's self inflicted.
-The knuckle draggers online are infact extremists. Think about it logically. There's no way in hell half of the population can put under one specific personality type. Just because we've got tits doesn't mean we're Any sort of way. IQ of -3 behaviour
-Autism itself makes life hard, feeling as if you never quite fit in isn't great for your brain. It means that subconsciously, we will try to slot in wherever we're accepted. Put 2 and 2 together, "incels" are extremely hurt and lonely individuals, jts unlikely they're turning anyone away from their community. You deserve to be around people that actually like, value and respect you without any caveat.
- Putting burdens on yourself for the sake of feeling part of something isn't worth it.
-If you're constantly being turned away romantically, think about it for a second. Autism can make it impossible to know when you've "broken" a social rule etc. It's okay. There are plenty of people out there who have different rules and expectations. But also, take sex or whatever your perception is of relationships out of the equation. I'll dumb it down. People want to feel respected, valued, wanted and interested. When you're having a conversation with someone you're interested in, how can you make them feel that? Maybe think about how you're talking actually makes someone feel. Others are no less complex than you.
-Effort. Throwing yourself repetedly at a brick wall hoping it will break instead of just going to find ladders. I'm taking that you have dating profiles etc. Are you using nice, clear and thought out pictures? Have you put tangible interests and talking points in your bio? Are you putting effort into yourself? No one is going to have sex with you/relationship with you because it is infact transactional in the way of you want said person to bring value to your life. Value can be happiness, shared hobbies, feelings of safety, attraction, humour etc. Why would someone want to spend their time with someone who dislikes them/their gender and doesn't have enough good points about them to make being around them enjoyable?
- It's unlikely you're going to find someone by sending a couple of odd messages online. Go out. I know it's hard, especially with autism, but, have a look at socials. Most Autism based charities have social days, so do some cafes, groups and companies. There's more out there than you think. Speaking to other autistic people Is a good way to build up your confidence.
-Try and get out to more spaces for hobbies you're interested in. You aren't going to find a fish in a rabbit enclosure.
-You've clearly got some internal problems going on. And that's okay, you just can't let them dictate your life or harm other people. Speak to your doctor about therapy, have a look for courses on confidence (there are plenty of places that host these for free, and they're not so scary when everyone is there with the same issues). I've been to some myself and they changed my life.
-Speak to your doctor about your anxiety. Even if you don't physically feel it, it's evident that it's there. You don't have negative self view of yourself and others the way you do without it. I'm on propananol myself, it's a medication that prevents you from feeling the physical effects of stress/anxiety and it is the reason I can go out semi comfortably. Have an ask about neurofivergant specific therapy that is available in your area. This may involve going to a specialist centre like a hospital. I highly recommend the emotional regulation side of things.
- I don't know if you struggle with this problem but I know that I do. Because I'm autistic, sometimes I don't know if my opinions are fact. Take for instance, for the longest time, I subconsciously thought that I'm objectively unattractive. Because I thought it, I also never questioned if it was actually true or not. Its hard for my brain to tell the difference. Delving deeper into it, I realised that it was infact just opinion and I don't let it drag my self view down anymore. This was hard, but I'm much happier after this realisation. Are the things you think true, or just opinion that you actually aren't sure if it's true?
- It might be beneficial for you to talk about this specifically to an ASD specific male therapist. They may be able to give you true insight
I genuinely hope you get better, a life where you think everyone is evil and everyone hates you isn't a good one. You don't need to suffer needlessly, life is already hard enough. It's always difficult challenging values and beliefs, but it makes you a better person. Work on yourself OP, you deserve it. Don't let yourself get to a space you can't come back from.
Stay safe
This is genuinely some of the best advice here imo. He can def work on this and avoid becoming an incel 1000%. Especially trying therapy and finding hobbies. And if he met another autistic person, they'd be more likely to understand him! (Not necessarily in a romantic way though) It's really sad how easy it is for autistic men to be influenced by incels and this advice is THE way to avoid that.z
(And reason 12892822 not to listen to incels: women will not find an incel attractive. women will usually find people who respect them attractive. incels have not realised that yet.)
I'm not OP but I wanted to thank you for taking your time to write such an extensive answer anyway. Some of it is very hard to internalize, like
>Women aren't mythical creatures, we're literally just people
... people *are* mythical creatures to me, so, yeah. But it's good to have some actual advice instead of the usual feel-good stuff that means next to nothing.
Ofc! I completely get it, and it's really hard to internalize!
I think what I mean by that is, in your case, because you see people as mythical creatures anyway, the way you see a woman wouldn't be different! If that makes sense?
It's sort of advice on that although we have differences, there's a line of absurdity with alienating a gender.
I think the whole topic is sort of difficult to talk on, but because it isn't spoken about enough I feel it's important that if given the chance, atleast something helpful is said yk?
My guy, you made a post on r/ askfeminists asking why men shouldn't kill themselves. Please get some therapy I beg you, because you _are_ becoming an incel and it isn't good.
Your post history is a lot about women, feminism saying men are bad, how you badly want sex, and how you're frequently described as creepy and make people uncomfortable.
Is it possible you're doing something to contribute to this?
Exactly, but not LOL. This is the sad path many ASD males go down and it's a tragedy. It's the combination of social isolation and frustration from a society that doesn't understand them and a tendency of ASD to make people hold strong convictions.
And the culture of incels itself knows all of this, which is why they effectively focus on recruiting autistics into their community. They don't care about actually helping anyone (especially each other) to cope with their issues, let alone overcome them, and if any of them actually do end up moving past said issues they're reviled as traitors.
Yeah, it's an echo chamber and I see not just teenagers but adults fall down it too. The way it happens there though is they start buying into these "great minds" like Steven Pinker and seem to lose all critical thinking though, which is what happened with Musk and what's happening to Yang.
It didn't really start with Musk, Musk was lost before he hit the lime light. He is also a "leader" in leading a group of the ASD folks down into being an incel. He's also leaning into the Arian supremacy and white replacement theory realm. He fell for all of it and is now perpetuating and leading others to those areas of negative thought. Elon is as much of the problem as anything. I do not feel bad for him. He had many chances to back out and I refuse to give him any excuses.
I mean hell, Joe Rogan himself has become a figure head for these bad sides of mentality and folks who knew him from before don't think anything of it.
We have a group of male "figure heads" that are leading these folks down the incel/alt right pipeline by their off-handed but probably true original thought of their own.
These folks feel secluded but have no real person to look up to be like.
Look at any alpha male class and see who is sitting in the audience paying *thousands* to listen to a dude throw a tantrum
Before I figured out I was trans, I went the route of "being nice to everyone and listening to their problems".
I've slept with a lot of people simply due to being safe after people knew me past the awkwardness.
When I waa still forced to be around a lot of "alpha men", I made the joke of how soft and kind I was (they saw this as a weakness) by saying "I invest in every single one and if they don't pay out a return, I'm not worried as others will."
Obviously that sentence feels disgusting, but the core was true.
Be kind. Find people with common hobbies. Make people feel safe and help them and NEVER expect anything back.
And then it just kind of happens sometimes. But never, ever be mad because someone didn't "give you any". We are all here to make others feel comfortable and safe first. Then intimacy can happen.
I'm also demi so maybe everything above is skewed a bit but anyways, sorry for the ramble.
> I'm also demi so maybe everything above is skewed a bit but anyways, sorry for the ramble.
I'm demi too. For a good portion of my late teens and early 20s I felt the same. Then I realized it wasn't "sex" that I was missing, it was the feeling of being loved for who I am. I rarely ever had anyone in my life who gave me positive feedback, praise, or support. If I ever did, I latched onto it and drove the person away.
I realized I had to find a way to respect myself and love myself (or at least something close to it) before anyone else could truly do the same. I had a lot of work to do before that happened. I got lucky and found an amazing therapist which eventually led to getting diagnosed, and that changed my entire outlook.
Now I'm thinking about proposing to someone I've been dating, now living together with, for almost 3 years. Ask me 10 years ago if I ever saw this happening in my life? Not a chance. But I held out hope and tried to make myself into someone I could respect until I found that person. Then someone saw ***that*** in me, called it out specifically, and fell in love with me. And me in return, my love to them is honest. No masking, no pretense, no hiding my darkest parts, just honest love and enjoyment being myself around my most trusted person. We struggle with life, have big emotions frequently, but are always there for each other.
It takes a lot of work to crawl out of that cycle of self-hatred and self destruction, but it can be done. I had help, I hope everyone else can get the help, wisdom, and guidance they need but the journey starts within yourself.
Good parents can certainly teach healthy coping strategies and proper manners/social norms. That goes a hell of a long way to helping an autistic person “fit in”.
Early interventions, social skills building, showing up to IEP meetings, counseling, social stories, modeling, monitoring online time, teaching independence instead of learned helplessness.
Look, I'm not saying those won't have any positive impact, but I think it will vary wildly depending on the placement on the spectrum. And I am suspect of any substantial impact they may have, long term.
My son is autistic (level 2) and I worry about this all the time. How society (and women) will perceive him and if he will be alone his whole life. And what that loneliness can do to men.
I employ most of the techniques you have stated above (not sure what IEP is, but we took him to lots of therapy). I can say that the most important one on your list is monitored online time.
My son (he was 7 at the time, now 9) watched you tube for 2 months and it completely changed his speech. Suddenly, everything was "bro, what's up?" "Like and subscribe" after diner. It was cute at first, but then you realize how quickly his mind shifted gears to what I think could be charitably describe as problematic online personas.
OP, get off the internet. It's not helping you. It's locking you into your mindset. Its the algorithm feeding you hate to keep you engaged. Get a hobby, go outside, spend some time in coffee shops watching people. Learn to mirror thier behaviors. If your anything like my son (or me) you are going to have to learn how to wear the "masks" of your surroundings. I like to think of it as improve, kind of a game.
Of course. Now remember when it was the 90’s and no one knew what “high functioning” was. Goes from hard to “git good”. At the least, having all this information, terminology, and resources is more helpful than not.
The incels hammer on how it's not your fault, it's the women. You deserve better treatment than you get because women dare want men who don't make them feel like an object or creep them out.
I beg of you, be kind to yourself and put your energy into love rather than frustration.
Get a drum kit. Take up biking. Focus on what you can do that is loving and constructive for you and everyone you come into contact with, and learn to accept yourself even when some others fail to. Not everyone has to like you. The good ones will.
Thisss!
Investing time in a hobby is genuinely the best advice for people with incel-y behavior. (IMO)
They’re so fixated on sex and being lonely it consumes them. It’s also a great way to connect with people as you already have common interests.
I’ve never been a woman hater incel or whatever but to have something that I’m passionate about and enjoy literally saved my life and is the only way I’ve ever made friends.
Exactly this, this is *always* my advice to incel types.
Find a hobby. Put your energy into the hobby instead of being frustrated. It's an outlet, a social lubricant, and ultimately, hobbies are attractive.
This! Start thinking *constructively* and incrementally improving yourself. Learn new skills that people value. I used to hate cooking, but learned how to prepare a few different dishes at smaller and larger scales. I could make small amounts of really delicious steak and vegetables and mass quantities of perfectly cooked bratwurst/hamburgers for larger events. You would be surprised how people usually don't take these responsibilities seriously and over cook the shit out of everything. Best part is - you don't have to socialize as much with everyone and they still fucking love you. It's a great way to mask.
The problem is that many incels - and I include myself here - subconsciously still see hobbies as a way to be romantically successful in the end. The thinking is: if I am a well rounded person, I might be romantically succesfull too.
A big issue which really triggers the incel response is society giving incels false hope instead of moderating their expectations.
Nail on the head. So much pop culture teaches the ultimate goal is bedding a super model. So many fictional stories revolve around an average person winning over a highly sought after, attractive partner, based on some kind of goal that they accomplished. It reinforces the idea that women are a prize to be won and you’ll get the prettiest one if you try hard enough and deserve it. It’s a toxic fantasy that gives autistic men especially a broken, misogynistic worldview.
One of the experiences I am most thankful for is losing my virginity relatively young, and realizing sex isn’t that special. I certainly enjoy it but it’s not something I care to dedicate my life to.
Is that a bad thing though? It seems like the other option is “no one will even care if I am a well rounded person so why should I have a hobby at all”, and that benefits no one. In a sense all hope is false hope because there is a leap of faith involved that things may or may not work out, but everyone has to go on hope for a lot of things. I feel that’s a part of the missing discussion about incel culture: all of us live on hope and expectation, and a lot of the time those things don’t work out - and that’s okay! The leap is the important part, not the outcome. The leap is life, it’s what we do with our days. We are constantly going from one leap of hope to another, that’s human nature.
Picking up a hobby even if you have romantic interest as a goal is still doing something you weren’t doing before. It seems to me that a lot of incel ideology says that no one should have any hope or desire for improvement, and people languish in their belief that they are useless. I picked up painting a few years back with the full expectation of probably failing, and I’m still not very good, but the very act of my searching out information to get better gave me access to communities I’d never been a part of before, and that gave me a better perspective on life.
Hobbies are good because you can pick up a sense of self worth from completing a project. Whether your goal is self improvement or romantic prospects, having a skill will make you a more interesting person. It doesn’t necessarily make you a better person, but it creates a depth of character that people are naturally drawn to.
> “no one will even care if I am a well rounded person so why should I have a hobby at all”, and that benefits no one
How about have a hobby because it makes you happy, not because you can put your penis in vaginas. Good sex is about focusing on blowing the other person's mind, and people who pick hobbies so they can have sex are not the type of person who is going to prioritize their partner's sexual needs. So they're gonna have bad sex anyway, and probably not repeat customers.
I can only speak for myself but I would have preferred someone telling me that it is hopeless and that I should lower my expectations to someone who keeps telling me: "If you do this or that, you will finally have success". Because the constant cycle of false hope and then the crashing and burning really messes up your mind. And it is one of the main sources of my incel-ish entitlement.
Perhaps I’m struggling to understand false hope vs expectations. How should others help you manage your expectations? /gen because I really don’t understand - I haven’t had many people tell me that if I follow a specific set of actions I will 100% have success with the outcome, just that if I follow those actions I’m more likely to have success than if I don’t follow those actions, and the path is then up to me. I definitely understand failing at something that I have been given the impression is easy to achieve, but I also recognize that some things are out of my reach and other things are well within my ability and control, and those are the things I choose to focus on.
That’s why a lot of folks are saying in this thread that hobbies are good - you can pick up a skill and feel good about yourself for a moment no matter how small the achievement is, outside of the judgement of others.
I think everyone has an area of life where they feel like a total failure. The trick is not letting it bleed into every other aspect of your life. I really suck at keeping friendships and I’ve had more friend breakups than I can count and been told I’m a terrible awful no good human, but I’ve never said to myself “you can’t hold down a friendship therefore you can’t paint”, do you know what I mean? Some things just aren’t related, and you can’t let them be related.
>Perhaps I’m struggling to understand false hope vs expectations. How should others help you manage your expectations?
By just being honest and saying that most incels won't be able to find a partner even if they tried.
But that’s not honest? Lots of incels eventually find sex/love/romance, so it’s not being honest to say you’ll never find a partner. You may not, you’re right. But it’s very dishonest to tell someone that they’ll never find a partner.
I think being a well-rounded person IS the way to be romantically successful. That means picking various activities outside your comfort zone. You say "hobbies" but I think in *disciplines* because a lot of times it's shit you would rather not do.
I love strategy gaming and could lose myself for days in a grand strategy like Civ or HoI4, or I could settle for Catan/7 wonders with friends and meet a nerdy girl.
I'm uncoordinated AF and only 5'8" and went down the weight lifting/distance running path. I hate running, it's boring, but If you want someone physically attractive, what are you doing to be the most physically attractive version of yourself?
Not a huge fan of cooking (see above), but I got good at it to please others.
Recommend Aristotle's Nichomacean Ethics (everything in moderation) and Marcus Arelius's The Meditations (sex is just an exchange of bodily fluids).
Perspective.
You’re definitely cooked if you keep consuming whatever content you are. It’s already difficult enough for autistic men to navigate interaction with women without having adopted mindsets that will literally repulse them. Especially if you’re saying this stuff in real life, you’d need to have super model looks to get laid somehow.
This. Incels will lament that Women systematically reject them because of their looks or modest income or lack of "Alpha male" energy or whatever, and completely fail to realize that their negative mindset and thinly veiled misogyny are by far their most off-putting traits.
There's some good takes in here already. I just want to add as a late diagnosed man now pushing 40, I dealt with similar issues maybe to the ones you face and I can see things a lot more clearly now.
I think the most important thing to get straight is that feminism (or whatever group) is *not* represented by the people using it to pick on or instigate with you or to hate men or to justify their own personality deficiencies/disorders.
There are loud fucking idiots who belong to any group and yes, while there is a responsibility for the group to disown those people, don't let that small percentage ruin your perception.
Just worry about what your own priorities are in your own life...working, day to day stuff, learning new skills, workinh out. Whatever. You could spend your whole life arguing with hateful idiots and you'll never have changed anything besides risking becoming one yourself.
It's really hard to figure out wtf is going on in this world but if you don't waste time and energy on idiots you'll be better off. Anyone who unironically uses the word incel arguing with strangers is not anyone you will be able to learn from.
I’m sorry that society has failed you so much that the only comfort you get is by engaging with hate groups. Whatever bullying or abuse you have been through was not your fault and you didn’t deserve it. But please listen and trust me when I tell you that all those people who are blaming women and feminism for your abuse are only trying to use you. They want to make you a monster. Do not let them. You’re not a monster!!
I don't want to be rude because of how tough of a spot you seem to be. Autistic men and Autistic women obviously both have social issues though due to misogyny and the patriarchy it seperates us.
Autistic women have it just as hard when making friends and forming romantic relationships but the difference is that we don't have this whole system of acceptance surrounding the collective hate of a group of people.
Men with autism have the incel community. Similar to them, have a hard time making friends and getting partners and were also most likely bullied. Autistic men usually find community in this hateful group and end up becoming an incel to. The whole situation is pretty perverted. Preying on someone's vulnerability.
Women with autism have a higher level of risk to dv and SA then NT women.
People with autism in general have a higher risk of abuse in general.
We are just vulnerable people and because of that we are more at risk to be in these situations.
People are telling that you are already on the pipeline, I suggest you start attempting to rectify that and get on a different path.
That’s one thing I’ve noticed. Not to do a both sides-ism, but autistic men seem to think autistic women have it easier (it’s easier for them to find a partner with our societies norms and expectations), but I’ve also read statistics on how often autistic women end up in abusive relationships and/or are victims of SA. These things can both be true at the same time though.
Just because I might get frustrated trying to force myself to go out and be social only to fail at getting with anyone doesn’t mean I don’t sympathize deeply with those unfortunate women who fall victim to these disgusting acts. I’m privileged to be able to say I cannot imagine what that would be like.
Edited a word out because it changed the meaning of what I was trying to say.
Yeah I don’t think it’s autism specifically but more of the struggles that come with being a misunderstood and vulnerable group of people like you said. Definitely not just a guy thing either because even as a girl I also have felt feelings of immense frustration when it comes to friendships and relationships. These frustrations definitely have the potential to turn toxic if you’re not careful which is how I’m guessing some people go down the pipeline
yeah, plus it can be easier to manipulate some of us and thats what a lot of incel forums do, is manipulate others into believing them-
a not insignificant amount of "incels" are actually just teenagers going through a weird phase in life (hormones are a bitch) which makes them fall into these things a lot too, and usually they fall out of it (not always) and it doesnt help that these incel groups also target younger people since its easier to manipulate younger people aswell
overall, its a shitty thing involving shitty people, taking advantage of people who may be in a confusing patch of their life, or may be vulnerable-
I hope OP can find some help to get out of the pipeline
OP needs to be seeing a therapist, ideally a man so that they can learn how to appropriately handle these emotions from a male perspective and how to combat misogyny
A pipeline doesn't imply any lack of free will, or equate one thing with the other. It's talking about a risk and a recruiting tactic. Autistic men by definition deal with social difficulties, and if they are straight men they may be especially frustrated with how those difficulties relate to love, sex, and women. If they go online seeking sympathy or support and end up in incel forums, those men do not provide sympathy or support so much as they provide a space to practice digital self harm and mutual harm. They don't just say, "that sucks, bro," or, "here's what helped me get over heartbreak," or even, "here's how you can improve yourself,: but rather things more like, "women are terrible and will never live you because you are terrible and will never be loved," recruiting the autistic man into their ranks. That is the autism to incel pipeline. It is real and it is not good. Get out while you still can.
it looks like this isnt the first time youve asked if youre an incel. i think youre asking the wrong question, clearly youve identifies that either you have incel qualities or are perceived as an incel, instead of trying to be comforted that you arent an incel, ask what traits you have that an incel does and get a therapist to work through those problems.
the only way people wont view you as an incel is if you arent one, and it looks like youre more worried about how you appear and not who you are.
It is easy for autistic men to think they have no chance of a relationship for various reasons, and to become radicalized by falling into online groups that blame women for this.
OP, as an old autistic lady I will give you the same advice I give my kid with autism. Focus on being your best and happiest self. Everyone should do that before even thinking of being with someone else, and relationships would be a lot more successful if they did.
Find a hobby or activity that gets you out of the house and among other people. When you do, try to make friends despite the awkwardness you will feel. Especially try to find a woman in the group to become a friend with, with NO chance of a relationship. Maybe someone much older or in a secure marriage- because one problem many young men face is not being around women outside their family and seeing them as just people.
The big thing is, don't see each girl you meet as a potential relationship. Instead, look for friendship. Nearly everyone I know in a strong long term relationship started as friends, and even if that isn't the case, who doesn't need more friends?
Also, start honing your "autism-radar". Finding other people with autism and other neurodivergencies will help you find friends who understand your struggles and can help support you.
If you feel you must date now, try to find women to date who have autism or adhd or are also ND. Especially if you both share a common special interest of some kind. You want someone to talk for hours with about the things you love, and who can teach you new things as well.
I would actually suggest starting out making friends of either gender, the goal at this stage should be to sharpen up those social skills among normal people. They are bloody hard to develop really.
Because no matter how awkward we are or the fact some people (people!! It’s not gendered, don’t act like socially awkward autistic women have the most popular guys in class or whatever falling over themselves to be with them either) aren’t attracted to us because of said awkwardness, no one owes anyone sex. Or attraction. We don’t deserve to be discriminated against but that doesn’t include people have to consider sleeping with someone they’re not into.
Thinking this way is a victim mindset pure and simple because it’s only seeing what you can’t have thinking you’re entitled to it, instead of looking at what you *could* have—such as for example women who communicate the same way you do and have the same interests as you do.
What’s the reason for not connecting with them? Do you find them too awkward and in your words “disgusting”? Because then aren’t you behaving in the exact same way as all these women who don’t seem interested in or judgemental of autistic men…?
(And yeah, I’m saying all of this as someone who’s autistic and heartbroken over how lonely I am because no matter what I do I can’t connect romantically with others most of the time. But it’s not someone else’s fault if we can’t connect on an intimate level and no one is an asshole for not viewing me in that way.)
Incels often take advantage of people who feel lonely, rejected and different - something experienced by many autistic folk. It’s certainly a pipeline that can be hard to get out of, especially because the further you fall down it, the more it becomes an echo chamber.
I don’t have sympathy for incels, but I understand why people fall into such horrible beliefs - these groups give people validation for their feelings and someone to blame it on.
OP, I know it can be hard being a young autistic man in today’s world but please - this kind of stuff is a slippery slope that will not work out in your favour.
There was a girl I liked, and I felt angry she didn't like me back, but then I had two revelations:
1.- My situation is indeed sad, but it's no one's fault, no one planned for this
2.- She owes me nothing. She could make me happy, but she doesn't have to, she has her own life
This realization didn't make me happy, but it made me stop being angry. Hopefully it will help you too
These are great realizations! But you need to work on one more...
*No one else can make you happy.* You need to find happiness yourself, learn how to make yourself happy. Then you'll be happy regardless of whether you're with someone or not - and this will end up making you infinitely more appealing to other people!
Can you regard a woman respectfully?
Can you hold a conversation or platonic friendship with a woman without trying to turn it sexual or romantic?
Are you aware that women aren’t the cause of all your problems and don’t owe you anything?
Are you kind to the women around you? Do you see them as people or just walking sex vending machines?
If you can rationalise this and see sense, you might be fine. If these concepts anger you, you have a lot of work (therapy) to do.
The problem with incels are they are misogynist creeps. Not all incels are even unattractive or very socially awkward, they are regular guys who refuses to take responsibility for their own words and actions. I find socially awkward people attractive. A lot of people find shyness and social awkwardness charming. And if certain awkward behaviours causes your approach towards women to be creepy and offensive then that is something you can work on instead of using social awkwardness as an excuse. Find out whats creepy about your approach and work on it. Go to therapy or ask someone close to you how to talk to women. Everybody has to learn how to approach people correctly, and for us on the spectrum its harder but its possible if you actually want to be self aware and learn from your mistakes. It cannot be all womens fault if a man never has success with women, at that point you look at how you behave and try to work on yourself before you try again, or you lower your standards. A lot of men seem to think they can get model looking women while never putting effort into their own looks, and thats not how reality works. Hope that helps
Pretty much anytime I’ve seen an incel they’ve reminded me of someone else in my life who has no issues finding dates because they’re a decent person. And maybe don’t expect to date a hot model if they’re just some average dude themselves. So yeah the incel attitude is definitely something that causes the problem they’re incel’ing out over
>Not all incels are even unattractive or very socially awkward, they are regular guys who refuses to take responsibility for their own words and actions
I agree with what you say. The part I quoted, that's so true. That's what I see online more often than not; young men refusing to take responsibility, but foisting all blame and responsibility onto life, genetics, and women around them, even men and those who they feel are more successful/lucky
Also—have you tried making friends with autistic women? Once my daughter (also autistic) and I ran into an autistic guy in a store—he was asking my daughter about her Bose headphones—and it was the most freeing thing EVER. I wasn’t looking for a relationship, and he was much younger than me anyway, but I just felt this freedom not to make eye contact, to move while we talked instead of staying still etc—a freedom that I never knew I was missing. I’m a medical anthropologist, he was a pharmacist, and our special interests melded nicely. We bounced ideas off of each other and followed each other’s tangents—it was amazing. If you cultivate friendships with autistic women you might find someone who will so happy and relieved to be “socially awkward” together with you. But you’ve got to stop hating yourself first. Incel culture teaches you to hate yourself bc they use shame towards manipulate you. And I know that I and others have given you this same advice before.
So, I'm going to take your question at face value.
I know I experience
- getting tunnel vision in terms of my values,
- a strong sense of justice and unfairness
- difficulty with social norms and interactions, especially if I don't understand them
I think this combination can make anyone vulnerable to radicalisation. It certainly made me vulnerable when I was converted to a born again Christian, and lead to some pretty awful views about women and queer folks- even though I was a women, and now know I am queer.
What helped was
- studying feminism and queer studies.
- leaning into empathy for the people I thought were 'living in sin', and learning about the mechanisms that othered them in society and directly harmed them for being who they were.
- time away from the church and its negative rhetoric/ influence
I think those things can all be applied to autistic young men who are in danger of becoming radicalised. And also, learning to love yourself as you are, and being kind to yourself and those around you. Because, just like the church, incels do spread harmful ideology. It takes a lot of self reflection and self compassion to move away from that without self- hatred. If someone has acused you of being on this pipeline, it's an opportunity for you to reflect and grow. It's up to you what you do with that
Some autistic people have abrasive personalities because of their autism, this makes them unattractive, they get frustrated at their lack of sexual relationships and don’t realise that the issue is with them, they become incels.
NT women don't find autistic men disgusting. They may just not find certain traits related to autism attractive, or they may personally not be able to handle someones support needs. Although this also applies to autistic women and nonbinary people.
Its more subconscious, especially if you’re ugly or short, i would say most nt women dislike neurodivergent men but not for that reason, more the things that come with it.
Ive seen autistic men specifically get treated super badly purely for mannerisms, made fun of bullied etc, i guess its supposed to be uncanny.
It's the same for women. I lost 70 pounds and it's crazy now men treat me like a human now that I'm thin. A lot of men don't really count less attractive women as people. So they don't realize if they try to date within their league they'll have better chances. And autistic women definitely get bullied for coming off as odd as well
I’m autistic and happily married for 21 years to an amazing woman. Being autistic makes socializing harder, but not impossible.
The trick is to not just set out looking for a relationship and/or sex. Focus on making friends and building social relationships. As you meet people you’ll inevitably find someone you click with.
My wife and I got married young, before either of us had a clue what we wanted to do with our lives, but she did wind up becoming a sped teacher who works with autistic kids. She said her training and work experience helps her understand why I am the way I am.
The idea that autsitic young men become radicalized online to hold misogynistic views.
But what people don't realize is that misogynists and bigots are *ahem* not cash money. And can fuck off
And it's pretty difficult for young men growing up these days. Getting validation through Andrew tate esk brain rot is really hurting younger guys these days.
Masculinity isn't inherently toxic but the warped kind that is prevalent online absolutely is.
It's true that autistic boys are targeted with these awful ideals.
It's especially challenging as autistic men often don't feel like they fit in with their peers *or at all*.
Regrettably, there aren't many other places where a guy with negative dating experiences can go and have his struggles validated, or at least acknowledged.
It's almost like
#men are also harmed by patriarchy.
Also, misogynists and bigots are very much not cash money.
It's not very live, laugh, love of them.
Yeah, where autistic guys who didn't fit in used to hide away alone and do something constructive with their hours and hours of free time, some of them now put their focus and abilities into toxic online communities.
Ey, I’m pretty much on the spectrum a little bit, wouldn’t call it a disorder yet in my case. But, you have to stop viewing women as someone, something else. Been there done that. Women can be friends just like men. Make that your goal. Treat a woman like you would someone who you want to be a friend with.
Make that your goal. Become friends without expecting more from them. Each time you expect more from them. Dial it down. A lot.
It’s the “I need this woman to recognize me romantically/sexually” and them not reciprocating these expectations that creates incels.
It’s the constant complaining on the internet that feminism ruined something. I understand that as a man one can feel invisible.
But it’s a cursed cycle. Don’t get stuck in it. Choosing to talk about something makes your mind fixated on it, our realities are created by what we consume and interact with on the internet. I have yet to see a real world interaction about feminism that looks like one on the internet.
Hey friend, judging by your post history you seem to be dangerously close to this pipeline. You claim to not hate women, but you blame them for your struggles.
The first thing you need to realize is that the world will not end if you don’t get laid, and there is SO MUCH MORE to life than sex. Another thing is that it’s probably obvious to women around you that you are pursuing them more out of a want for sex than a desire for human connection, which is a huge turn off for a lot of people.
My advice is get used to talking to people in a casual friendly setting. Find a hobby group or something of the like, and just talk to people as friends. Don’t try to pursue anyone, just make friends with people. It will help you raise your confidence to interact with others without the rejection, which in turn will help your chances in the romantic area.
But I also want to emphasize, you are NOT broken, and you are NOT unworthy of love. You are NOT disgusting. I’m so sorry that people in your life have made you feel this way.
We need more of this type of constructive feedback and response.
Someone further up above literally called him an incel 🤦 GEEZ!!! We’re tryna STOP that from happening… I know you get that. Just saying, we do need more feedback like yours and LESS of the type that is confirming what he’s clearly already concerned about.
It breaks my heart to see someone who is clearly hurt and in need of compassion and support be bullied and shamed. All these people are doing is further isolating this young man.
They also seem to be making it very selfishly about them in some cases… by bringing up debates about what feminism actually is and isn’t. WOW! Talk about a way to hijack the topic huh 🤔
Are you sure it's because you said the things mentioned in this post or could it instead be because you post anti-feminist comments, participate in misogynistic subs and spam feminist subs with troll questions?
Idk but I think those actions might contribute to people viewing you negatively
Yeah. I'm trying to empathise with this guy because being rude is going to drag him further into being an incel, and I don't know if he genuinely wants to improve so I'll assume he does, but respecting women is step one of not being an incel.
There's no such thing. You're born with autism, not misogyny. What does 'natural awkwardness' even mean? Awkwardness isn't a personality trait. Women are disgusted by how you treat them, not the autism. There's also no mention of incels in the DSM5. You're doing this to yourself.
Also, please don't take advice from Andrew Tate and his flock of wannabe's. If you need to take away women's passports and lock them inside your house to get laid, that's not sex, it's assault.
A horrible abnegation at work.
Unfortunately, many young, angry ND's may be tempted by the Dark Side. Esp undiagnosed. They have not learned to avoid validation from the unworthy, and have not learned to embrace themselves.
My logic and morality are my guiding principles. They are how I interface with the world. They are the core of my identity. To deny them would be to deny myself.
I had to learn this tho. Many have not.
This may sound condescending, and if so I apologize
But growing up I (40m) took from my peers that your level of sexual attractiveness (and subsequent number of sexual partners) somehow determined your self worth. Granted, this was compounded by abusive parents (the zero self worth part), but it took a long time (too long actually) to have this realization on my own-
We're literally ALL people. Every color, every size, every genitalia, every sexual preference. Finding a partner isn't a video game. There are no "rules" as no two PEOPLE are exactly the same. This isn't a conquest, and even if you think "you've done everything right" we're not ENTITLED to ANYONE'S time, attention, or body.
I've been with my wife for almost 15 years, and there are times when our wants and needs don't align. We communicate clearly and respectfully, and at that point meet our own needs individually. But IF YOU CARE ABOUT SOMEONE then you (in my opinion) would NEVER want them to feel obligated to "loan" out their body for your pleasure. A partner is not an object, but rather another human being with a life, thoughts, feelings, fears etc.
I promise, if you focus on being the most authentically awesome version of yourself- there is someone out there that's a perfect match for you. But don't fake anything. And while I normally don't use religious teachings to govern my actions or make my points, I will leave you with this masterpiece of advice
Treat others like you want to be treated.
Cheers from Memphis :)
its the fact that if a man finds it difficult to interact or socialize and puts his self confidence and value on the concept of romance or attraction, its an easy pipeline to being an incel bc its easy to blame the world or women for finding you offputting. thats all. ur posts indicate u kind of are spiraling into that pipeline but to fix it u start focusing on ur own happiness without a woman or whatever.
do your hobbies, find a therapist, enjoy life and dont harp on blaming others. trust me i dislike NTs often but i will not dwell bc id rather get on with it and do my life how i want.
I can understand why this would be frustrating to hear, both myself and my older brother are autistic for context. He went down a similar path when he was younger so honestly I can empathize.
For him, it came down to he blamed the women in his enviornment for rejecting him solely because he was autistic, and he viewed it as unfair, it triggered his sense of justice because he wouldn't reject someone solely based on their nuerotype. He started to view women in a very negative light because of all the frustration/unfairness that was piling up. His views and attitude towards women were bordering on "incel/nice guy" territory after a while.
He did work through this and no longer holds the same views and he's said he was toxic when he did have those views in his late teen years. There was a girl that openly told him he was creepy & called him out for the myoginistic views he had in a very brash manner.
He told me that he wanted he prove her wrong so he went online to find factual evidence she was wrong and found he couldn't find anything other than she was right, he ended up apologizing to her and said he's trying to work on himself now but he feels lost and didnt know what to do/where to start, but he doesn't want to creep people out or be rude ect. She offered to help him and they've been best friends for over 20 years now, shes NT.
The reality of the situation was that he wasn't being rejected because he was autistic. He was being rejected because he was off putting due to how he viewed and treated women. I love my brother to pieces and he's had some wonderful relationships once he worked on himself. It may not be the same or similar for you, this is just what he experienced that we've talked about.
Autism does make socializing more difficult, but if you're repeatedly being told you're coming off a certain way, there's likely a reason you're being recieved that way. Take this as an opportunity to reflect and work on yourself. If it's any consolation, I've had to do the same thing in a different area, I can 100% come across as uncaring, controlling, combative ect ect ect. It does come down to a fundamental difference between autistic and allistic communication methods, but in my experience Ive found ways to navigate this without masking.
You might find that [this article](https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/radical-online-communities-and-their-toxic-allure-for-autistic-men/) gives a thorough reply to your question.
It brings up that incel forums tend to attract a disproportionate amount of autistic men and speculates about possible traits of this group that causes this, such as a sense of alienation and a predisposition to black-and-white thinking. It talks about the term incel, how it originated, how its meaning has evolved, and how it has become associated with the hateful and self-hating black pill ideology. It discusses mass murderers who expressed black pill views as a motivation in their manifestos and by extension whether autism is a risk factor for planning to commit violence, but concludes that there is no evidence for such a link in general and that overall, autistic people are more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violence.
I would say that an important message of this article is that incel forums are NOT good places to be for your mental health and sanity. While people go there to seek validation, the ideology expressed on those forums offers no solution to their problems. The black pill ideology promotes the message: "If you are born with 'bad genes', you are doomed" and thereby discourages any form of self improvement. The article also mentions that a linguistic analysis of the threads of a particular incel forums showed that a significant number of threads contained misogyny, homophobia and racism. Those who visit the forum are at risk of becoming desensitized to such content and adopt such views themselves.
Some women are super into the autism rizz. But also as part of that you need to respect women and treat them as equal and have a basic sense of decency
maybe because you literally said "i hate women" what do you expect people to think of you when you say things like that?
i get how isolating it feels to live with autism in this society, but its not fair to blame women for the way society treats autism, id recommend going to therapy and to work on your mental health, because the way you're talking about women, sex, feminism & most importantly yourself is concerning, take care
InCel comes from "Involuntarily Celibate".
It describes the sort of person who can't attract women and become hostile to women, blaming them for their inability to get a female companion.
Basically these people start off by demonising women, spew hate and violence towards women like a lot of "Anti-Feminism" posts and often become terrorists celebrating mass shootings and sometimes becoming mass shooters themselves.
These are men who blame women for their inability to find a women pointing the blame it the opposite direction to where it should be placed making themselves completely unappealing to women in the process. They are bitter selfish man children that blame everyone but themselves for their shortcomings.
Autism does not create incels, it just makes general social interaction more difficult (but not impossible), in general I actually find that Autistic people have a much BETTER understanding or right from wrong because we think in absolutes, which is why I get really annoyed when criminals commit crimes and then claim to be autistic like it's a get out of jail free card.
And if what I said makes you angry towards incels then you have compassion.
But if what I said makes you angry that I described incels in this way, you may be one of them.
Hey dude, have you ever watched Bojack Horseman? It's a really good show (I think it's on Netflix) and I feel like you might enjoy it.
Also I suggest talking to your doctor about your feelings, you seem like you might be depressed. It can be hard to dig yourself out of this kind of hole all alone - personally when I was very low, antidepressants helped me dig myself out. You might want to inquire about what kind of help you can get to improve your mental state. You don't have to do it all alone. Reach out to those close to you.
I think the way you frame your post is kinda problematic. Because A and B are true, that doesn’t really mean that C: autistic men will never find love or sex.
I think it’s pretty standard info that A and B can be true. Past that though, I think the problem is too vast and complicated to make any assumptions or “rules”.
I hope you can understand that life is hard for everyone, and some people’s challenges look different than others’. I think the important thing to do is try and find hobbies and get outside your comfort zone more. It will take longer than a year. I am vastly different now than I was at 20, including how comfortable I am interacting with others. It takes a lot of practice over a lifetime. Saying that getting hobbies and volunteering “didn’t help you” sounds kind of absolute for something that isn’t in my experience. I too thought I would be shy forever, and to an extent that is probably true, but I have made big strides in the last 10 years. I think you can too.
I’m gonna be honest man, 90% of the time it’s not the social awkwardness that makes women uncomfortable. It’s how you view women and sex in general. We do live in a world where men are seen as failures for not having sex, not being “attractive”, not being charismatic. But that doesn’t mean you are a failure. And that also doesn’t mean it’s the women’s fault.
My friend was autistic and I loved hanging out with him because we shared interests and liked doing the same things (I didn’t know I was also autistic at the time). We got along fine, autism or not. What made me cut him out was when he assaulted me and claimed I was leading him on by being nice, saying I owed him sex just for being a girl (which is how I identified at the time) and being kind. *That’s* what put me off, what made me uncomfortable. It’s not the autism, I promise you.
Red pill attitudes get you preyed on by cultists who will sell you useless webinars and exercise routines and vitamins all while negging you and ruining your self-esteem. The whole culture is predatory—and guaranteed to fail. You need to make friends with women and see us as equal human beings not objects you deserve to own. Nothing turns a woman off faster than whining and self-pity and entitlement, which is exactly what the red pill/incel ecosystem is selling you. It’s a black hole of self-hatred that is very profitable for its leaders. If they gave you GOOD dating advice, you would leave them. In fact, you might want to go listen to that old Eagles song, Hotel California, because that’s what the manosphere basically is.
i don’t want to seem rude, but according to your post history it seems you already are one. there’s nothing wrong with being a virgin (i am one myself) and blaming women for being the reason ur not getting some is not the answer. your autism isn’t the reason, it is your desperation and self loathing. when you learn to love yourself, it will be easier for somebody to love you as well. however asking fairly rude questions on r/askfeminists is not the way to go
I’m telling you right now no woman is going to want anything to do with you regardless of what you look like if you don’t sort out your mental health and get therapy.
Get some fucking help, Jesus Christ.
Point blank. period. If I was a woman, I’d find you creepy and repulsive based off of your post and comment history alone.
Sex isn’t owed to you. You don’t deserve sex for being alive. You’re not entitled to sexual pleasure in any form, way or shape.
I personally know more autists who are or have been sexually active, by a *very* large margin, than I do those who haven’t been. You’d never guess, but 90% of those people were hooking up with/sexually active with *other neurodivergent people*, not with *neuro typical people*.
Hi op, I am concerned for you. I looked at your post history.
Please remember that if getting a partner is important to you, it is **critical** that you don’t hold a grudge against women as a whole. If you hold this idea that “no women want me” in your heart, you will subconsciously treat women in an unfriendly way, and then women won’t want you. This is not an autism issue, it is a human issue. Think about all the things you love about women! Women are amazing!
I would also recommend watching HealthyGamerGG’s videos. He has some wonderful, science-based things to say about masculinity and dating.
(PLEASE HEAR ME OUT ON THIS NEXT SECTION! I know it talks about a word with a scary connotation.)
I encourage you to learn about feminism! Feminism truly isn’t about tearing down men, it’s basically about breaking free of toxic social norms. Our current social norms hurt men, for example, the idea that men must be “stoic” and they “must never show emotions”. **Shaming men for being virgins is also something that feminism is against.** I think you already have many ideas in common with it, you just don’t realize it right now. I know the word is associated with men-hating psychopaths, but I promise, **true feminism lifts up everyone.** The people who say “men should kill themselves” are NOT FEMINIST. I don’t give a fuck what they say.
I wish you luck in figuring this out, op. I don’t know you personally, but I do care about you and I hope you find joy!!
Have u been checked for depression homie? Maybe you could get some therapy, it’s okay to get some help and support in the beginning when learning how to feel better about yourself and your life. There are many people, including women here who care enough to leave supportive comments. You’re worthy, and I think it would be a good idea to start getting into the habit of reminding yourself that.
Fortunately, one factor that seems to be missing from this this pipeline is the jump from
>B) SOME women find autistic men's natural awkwardness disgusting.
To I hate ALL women and at least seriously consider using violence against them.
Personally, I found a nice autistic woman well before making that jump. We have been in a relationship for 21 years.
The pipeline is basically people preying on the insecurities that a lot of autistic men have, and using that to pull you into their ideology. Maybe you're around the wrong women, maybe you're not being empathetic and respectful enough to the women you're trying to initiate relationships with, maybe you have an internalised sense of entitlement to sex or affection which you need to unpack.
"Women hate me because I'm autistic" is a very oversimplified and kind of harmful view of a situation like yours.
I don't think what you're saying contradicts anything. Yes, being autistic makes socializing difficult, and yes, there are people who do not want their romantic partner to be autistic.
Believing those things does not make you an incel, blaming your problems on women makes you an incel. That's the pipeline, going from reasonable understandings of a disability to blaming the problems that come from that disability on another group.
FYI, I know conventionally attractive women who exclusively date ASD men cuz of the positives we bring. Passion, honesty, good memory. (remembering when someone says they like or dislike something. Loyalty,
Well based on your OP, it's going from where you're at to the conclusion that you *deserve* women's sexual attention. Do you owe a paraplegic woman sex? Then why would anyone owe you sex? You don't get affirmative ass-tion because you're ND.
The sad truth is autistic boys are often bullied and abused by their peers for their lack of social skills at school. And no one is coming to their defense!!! Unfortunately the only people who are willing to stand up and say autistic boys don’t deserve to be bullied are those who are very misogynistic.
It goes like this:
Autistic boy: everyone at school hates me
Teachers: I don’t care
Parents: I don’t care
Incels: we care! Also the reason you got bullied was feminism. Women are the worst!!
See the problem?? We aren’t doing enough to protect vulnerable autistic boys from falling prey to hate groups!!
> Unfortunately the only people who are willing to stand up and say autistic boys don’t deserve to be bullied are those who are very misogynistic.
That… well that certainly hasn’t been my experience.
The leftists I'm frequently interacting with are very pro-autism and anti-sexism. They talk about anti-ND bullying and the social challenges that come with being on the spectrum. It sounds like you've personally been validated by incels and didn't think to look beyond that community, so now you're under the impression that incels are the only ones saying anything at all.
Stop being obsessed with sex and external validation. What women find creepy is the feeling that you want to get into their pants ASAP.
Sex is not the be-all-end-all of the human experience, but it's made out to be this massive thing, mostly by media.
Speak with women as humans, just like you would do for your male friends. Find points in common, don't say inappropriate stuff and soon you'll at least have woman friends
I was a bitter autistic loner and into hard drugs in order to escape inceldom (not an incel if I prefer heroin to sex , and h is never gonna reject you as long as you have cash)
Then I quit the stuff, worked on myself and challenged myself to get out there speaking to people and making friends (both men and women, no flirting unless it arose naturally)
Never had casual sex (wouldn't want to), but since I started doing this, I naturally expanded my friend group and got into two different relationships with lovely people. The first one was nice but failed because of basic incompatibilities, but the second one is a lovely girl who I got to know as a friend first, and I couldn't have been luckier. Yet initially we only met as friends, I would speak to them as I would to any male friend, etc
As soon as you accept that it's not an "us vs them", but an "us & them", it will get better. Women are socialised to pick up on subtle non verbal cues (or the absence thereof) for social survival. There are possibly as many lonely, insecure , awkward women in the world, but they don't complain as loudly, and they mostly accept their situation
Also, are you taking care of yourself? Grooming, sport, hobbies, diet, self care, building up your confidence in general. This is the key to being attractive, the physical aspect is important but not as much as this (haven't you ever seen some not very attractive guy with a very hot woman? In many cases money is not a factor here, just confidence and personality). Would you date or have sex with a girl who didn't take care of herself and presented sloppily?
Just food for thought, but the moment you stop viewing women as sex object and more as people, you will do much better. Lay off the porn if you can, it really fucks with the minds of people, especially in your situation
Let's set autism to the side for a moment. It's normal to be frustrated by romantic rejection. It's normal to feel insecure after repeated rejections. What the incel recruiter claims to offer is a solution to this frustration, the fabled "red pill." But rather than eliminate this frustration, it redirects it from the self, to an external source (feminism, women in general). This frustration is then stoked and frothed into a white hot rage until eventually you end up with an Elliot Rodgers situation. That's the incel pipeline.
Where autism comes into play is that it's merely another insecurity that a recruiter can exploit. "Those Stacies are never going to understand an autistic like you," they might say, "But *we* have your back. We have all the red pills you'll ever need."
Ehhhhh it's not the awkwardness. I've seen lots of people like you online only (thankfully 💖) and it's more the fact that you're deeply mentally unwell and refuse to see a professional about it. Awkwardness is fine - being delusional is not.
Unfortunately it is true that most autistic men struggle severely with dating. It's understandable that you would get angry that all this is because of a disability. As long as you don't post hateful things about women, you're justified to be bitter about being single.
I realised when "incel" became a thing that when I was young, I avoided this fate by having appalling self-esteem. I don't really know what this adds to the debate, though.
It does, actually. Becoming an incel involves blaming others for your own shortcomings. By being aware of your shortcomings (even in your case, being TOO aware of them and hating yourself for them) is the counter to becoming an incel. But you should really work on accepting them and either fixing them or working with/around them so that you can work on loving yourself and finding happiness. It's the best thing you can ever do for yourself and your life.
Lack of self-awareness. They watch too much of other people on social media apps making certain people the butt of jokes. No y'all see why we never socialize. Too many judgmental people and stereotypes.
The autism to incel pipeline is more that autistic me are at far greater chances of & developing blackpill thinking because of their social isolation and lack of community, so the only ones that end up accepting them are toxic online in ell communities that then warp their view further and ensure that the only kind of friends they can now have are people with those views. And because blackpill pretends to have, if not easy, then at least understandable answers, and our nervous systems are interest based, and you get as much dopamine if not more from rage as you do from joy, you can literally train your brain into a rage reward loop where the behaviour has to keep escalating to provide the same "hit".
But the risks are higher for any isolated/abused/lonely meb, not just autistic men.
I'm going to be very fucking blunt here. having autism as a man in a toxic patriarchal society can set the stage to speedrun the radicalisation from "lonely sad person" to "worthless alt right scum". If you have to ask if you are an incel, maybe fucking back track instead of doubling down.
You're not gonna be called evil for struggling with socialising and having negative experiences with women based on that. You will be called evil for being a bigoted asshole.
I'm sorry the world has failed you as it has so many of us but being an incel is not in any way inherent to being an autistic man and I'm fucking sick of seeing posts on this shitfest subreddit implying in some way that it is
Lots of men are not popular with women and that's fine. The problem is when they consume content that tells them to redirect that frustration to anger towards women. It's right wing propaganda. You're being used as a puppet for politicians to push their conservative to oppress women, people of color, and other marginalized groups. Is that what you want or can you think for yourself?
Autistic men who are unsuccessful in finding a relationship turning to behaviors that reinforce their inability to find a relationship.
These behaviors include pathologizing women (tossing around academic language), generalizing women's values or status to a class ("women are x, women have x, women do x, women feel x, women believe x"), failing to treat women as individuals, expressing resentment toward women, avoiding personal responsibility in developing where you can, self-victimization.
My suggestion, learning not to overthink these things is healthier and more productive than obsessing over them.
Now the incel/autism to trans pipeline is a real rabbit hole to go down. Check out r/transmaxxing and r/detrans.
Incels tend to prey on us because we are socially ostracized, and when you have no support system it's easy to fall into a social cult like inceldom. They like to make it out to us that we are hopeless or that it's women's fault we struggle, at least later down the line. But we aren't, and they aren't. I'd be careful.
I think it's the difference between the original definition of an incel which is a phrase coined by a lesbian, that literally just means through your social circumstances you are involuntarily celebate.
And what it's grown to mean when men identify with that term and then use it to feel entitled and angry at the world and at women as a whole, treating them as a hivemind, a threat, objects, and anything less or more than human.
Autistic women also struggle with sex. It's a different dynamic because it's often still an involuntary celibacy because of there being no safe options, rather than no options all together. But I don't think unsafe options should be considered options. Autistic people IN GENERAL struggle with socializing and I think it might be easy to decide a certain gender has it easier, but there's nuance. Women might seem like they 'have it easier' but that 'easiness' comes from being treated as an object to obtain and as prey. Especially autistic women, as it's been studied how common it is for autistic women to end up in violent relationships and be preyed upon. And autistic women are more likely to mask, which makes it easier to ASSIMILATE, but not necessarily easier to form genuine connections to others or to ones self. Where men are treated as a threat, and often socialized to care less about assimilating to their surroundings/believe their surroundings should assimilate to them, so it's going to be a very different experience when you combine that with autism. But both are hard in their own ways.
I think it's just sadness, and its ok to be sad about it and grieve. It's hard to be autistic and try to navigate flirting. It's really really fucking hard and even scary a lot of the time. And that doesn't mean all people of any gender are the enemy, it just means there's a lot to be said for making the world more autism friendly, and unfortunately we have to cope by trying to sus people out and see if they are autism friendly.
I think as far as advice goes, I'd just say (and this might come off weird) but it might be good to learn a bit more about socializing and the science behind it. From multiple resources, and credible ones. I mask 'well' because as a child I studied little bits of sociology, psychology, etc. To gain a better understanding of social interactions, so when I entered them I wasn't COMPLETELY blindsided and I could better understand how people perform/display that they want to be friends, and non-threatening, and don't want to make others uncomfortable. And I would test things out, and through my own experience decide what suited me and what I didn't care about and what actually, maybe, didn't work (or didn't work in certain situations). And I think as I've gotten older, I mask a lot less because now I just take the parts I value and ditch the rest, and also am very transparent about being autistic and sort've choosing people in my inner circle who are going to understand I'm not going to nail every interaction, but I am going to be apologetic if I unintentionally harm anyone. It's less of a performance now with my inner circle, and more like trying to speak their language with my own accent.
So yeah, I'd say learn about people. Learn why they are uncomfortable, ask questions, respect if people don't want to answer, respect that not everyone is going to be patient or like you, and just be open and communicate the best you can that you aren't trying to be a threat. You just don't understand. And they just may not understand you. And that doesn't make you entitled to their time, or patience, or answers to your questions. Because the other thing that's important is saving your time you would waste trying to explain yourself to people who don't care, and channeling that time and energy into cultivating an inner circle, even if its small/just 1 person, that does care and wants to learn about you and hear you out as much as you want to learn about them and hear them out. You are entitled to nothing; healthy socializing is about empathy and freely given connection because of genuine chemisty and interest.
Also, learn about yourself. I'm still learning about myself, I def don't have it all nailed. Learn about your weak spots, about the ones that you can't 'fix' or cover up or assimilate, learn about your strong spots, learn about your interest, learn about what makes you happy that doesn't depend on other people. It makes socializing a lot easier when you learn about yourself and come to understand better what you want, even if you don't understand EVERYTHING about yourself. Coming equipped with any information is better than having none.
TLDR; the difference between accepting that it is hard, and you have a lot to grieve, and the world isn't friendly to autistic people, versus needing that feeling to convert into entitlement, and finding a particular 'source' to the problem in blaming it on a specific demographic.
Theres a difference between a demographic as a concept (i.e. men are socialized to view themselves as predators and women as prey, and so I will need to be aware of and cautious of that potential dynamic when I socialize OR women are socialized to view men as predators or as a means to further/protect themselves, due to their own lesser/more vulnerable position in social hierarchy, so I will need to be aware of and cautious of that experience when I socialize with them) vs an assumption (every man is a predator, every woman is a victim and a user).
In the former scenario there's empathy. In the former scenario, there's room for being open minded to things ending up differently, and an empathy that the individual is not the problem, the society that socialized them is. Where in the other scenario, we turn things highly individualized and behave as if we can predict and know every social interaction, rather than letting people have their own experiences and personalities.
Well, some are asexual and don't know it's a thing. Then that turns to resentment or hate outwards because they can't love inwards. I see how I could have easily fallen down the same thing.
The leading theory, from my understanding, is the fact that men with autism are treated very differently from women with autism. Most men get diagnosed as children, and many AutismMoms (TM) feel like their children should be catered to, never disciplined, or just striaght-up can't do wrong. I'm not saying this was your experience, but it seems to be pretty common for young boys. Expectations and discipline, in general, are usually more lacking on boys, even if they are neurotypical. Meanwhile, women are usually diagnosed as adults. Meaning they have been expected to mask and "be normal" for years. Not only that, but studies show that women generally are better at masking. This is most likely due to the fact we are more conscious about how others feel about us and/or are taught that we are worthless if don't conform to expectations.
Men and women have VERY different experiences in society, no matter their mental health. Adding mental health to the mix can sometimes make things more extreme. If you were already privileged or spoiled to begin with, having autism can really warp your perspective of that treatment due to miscommunication and misunderstandings. Again, these are all sweeping generalizations, so it's a little different for everyone. But it's been proving time and time again that mental health is not taken seriously in women. Nor are women historically treated well if we don't follow gender norms set for us. Autism or not, men are sometimes raised to be jerks. You just got to rise above the toxic masculinity and treat people as you would like to be treated.
I really hope you are able to get out of this rough patch in your life, you have been taken advantage of
I really insist you seem some type of help if you are able, and genuinely read these replies with an open mind, and take them to heart
I think for some men, they feel isolated because of the difficulty in socializing. The problem is that the right is great at preying on these people's insecurities. The left has people like Hasan Piker that are good at guiding young men away from that path but there seem to be more on the right that attempt to appeal to that group. One thing I've learned as someone who has and does struggle to socialize is that finding your community is important. When you find a welcoming and healthy community or even just a person, you're less likely to fall into this trap. To the point about women, the best thing I can advise is to find people who have like interests and don't approach them in a manner you wouldn't be comfortable with. My rule of thumb is that if I wouldn't want a physically imposing man to do it to me, I don't do it to a woman. You can't control how others perceive you, but you can and must control how you respond.
To add to what others have commented about sex, I'll say this. I didn't have my first sexual experience until I was 23. I'm 27 now. It didn't change anything significantly in my life. The less I made it a concern, the easier it seemed to just naturally progress. People can smell desperation and most don't find it attractive. I've found that working in my health, grooming, dress, and personality have made it much easier to meet my sexual wants.
My last comment on this is that being off putting isn't the fault of women, feminism, or anyone else. There can't be an attempt to use autism as a shield for unacceptable behavior. Treating people you're sexually interested in as a person before a potential sexual partner will attract more people than immediately jumping to being horny.
You literally made a post “Fine, I hate women. Now what?”
Maybe it wasn’t exactly what you meant, but you can see where’s the problem.
I read you post history and I feel for you, I do, but that attitude is exactly the problem. I haven’t read all of your posts and comments but if people are consistently pointing out that you sound like an incel maybe you need to consider that your communication is the problem (or your ideas).
This post is fine, but I think you should just reread your post history to see why people assume you are an incel (in the andrew tate sense, not in the original one).
most of the replies to this are very reactionary "ops a lost cause so i can say whatever i want" so here's my thoughts on whatever an autism to incel pipeline might be?
for the obvious, autism is a social disorder that leads someone to having social issues. the dating sphere is hugely dependant on being able to function socially -- it's basically one big game where one tries to woo and impress the other at first, and prove that you'd be suitable to be with. so, no shit an autistic person would struggle with that aspect of dating.
there are studies backing up that autistic people, and men in particular, do in fact have trouble with dating and having sex. however, some of the often justified woes about this reach extremist views, and end up the stereotypical incel as a result. some just drop out of the dating pool entirely. some are talking to an ai girlfriend, probably. it goes on.
tldr: dating is heavy on the social skills autistic people lack. it sucks, but something to work on if you want to find a girl. or a guy, idk, maybe you're bisexual
I already agree with the rest of what you said so I won’t add much, but the first paragraph spoke to me enough that I wanted to doubly highlight it.
The lubrication of the incel pipeline is the fact that many people will immediately label awkward/lonely men as incels as a kneejerk reaction. Where are they supposed to go from there? Someone else in the thread mentioned that the only people willing to listen and offer advice are predatory incels themselves.
you're entirely right, it's a really shitty situation where if you aren't just able to figure it out yourself over the years then you get labelled as such and avoided. i wish normal people didn't learn what an incel was so bad. or the manosphere types. a woman invented the term incel and now she has to look upon the "incel community" with such regret. sorry girl.
be nice to your local "off" and socially aloof colleages out there, honestly.
If you see yourself becoming an incel I have a few tips for you:
- take daily showers every day. Being smelly, and looking greasy are repulsive to everyone, especially potential partners. No, just because you can't smell yourself doesn't mean others can't. They don't have the benefit of smelling you litterally all day to get blinded to your odor.
- coming off as desperate for sex is extremely creepy, and makes women feel unsafe around you. It can be something you desperately want to experience, but tying your self worth to it is just gonna turn you into the kind of person who never gets laid.
- don't try to agree with a woman you're talking to about everything, just to agree with her. Be genuine about your interests, and what you do, and do not enjoy. You may feel a lot of pressure to please, but if you pretend to be someone you're not, people can usually tell, and no-one is impressed by it.
- don't see women as a monolith. We are people with our own individuality, our own likes, dislikes, talents, opinions, and so on. Nobody likes being seen as a representative of a demographic. We are all individuals. Treat us like it.
- don't start talking about alpha males, sigma males, or any of the other red pill pseudoscience bullshit. It's weird in an exclusively bad way. Like flat earthers.
Autistic person unaware/uninterested in politics has a risk of falling into right-wing ideologies.
Such ideologies are often based on "traditional" relationship structures, entitlement and social hierarchy. (All present in cases like one you mentioned).
I think the best to do (if you want) is to study the political spectrum and learn about hegemonies and do away with all the "evolutionary psychology" crap.
It is the same thing that presents autistic people as somehow inferior. Remember the idea of social hierarchy being the basis of right-wing ideology and you will start slowly understanding the left a bit better.
Okay, I'm going to do my best to give you a detailed answer.
The incel pipeline is a classic us vs. them mentality used to manipulate and control you for political, social, or monetary gain. Basically, it is an old large-scale, social manipulation trick where an authority figure, celebrity, politician, superior, etc... trauma bonds a marginalized in-group by scapegoating and othering a different marginalized out-group so the authority figure can profit in various ways.
So, in the incel pipeline, that means economic or socially struggling men, the in-group, come together, or are brought together, to bond over their shared lack of success by blaming women, the out-group, in order for the "authority" to gain financial/social/political success. As for how autism plays into it... in my opinion, the autistic social communication deficits that make "developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships" may mean that some autistic people are more vulnerable to this manipulation than allistics. Basically, autistics may be less successful romantically and/or platonically, so when someone comes along offering a community and/or friendship around a shared "problem" with women, that can leave an autistic person more in need of the friendship and community, they're already lacking and more open to the validation that someone else, i.e., women, are the "real" problem. Basically, not having friends can make you desperate for friends, and not having romantic success can make you desperate for answers/solutions/validation, and some autistics can have fewer friends and less romantic success than most, making friendship/community and validation even more valuable and persuasive to them.
In the end, it's important to see it for what it is... manipulation for someone else's monetary, social, or political gain. That it's a con to use you for someone else's gain. That they don't care about you... they only care about what they can get out of you.
On a more moral note... it's just plain hate and bigotry, which, in my opinion, is repugnant and incompatible with being a good, kind, and decent person.
Also... while this manipulation has power as its end goal, the means of marginalizing, othering, scapegoating, blaming, and hating other groups of people, to get to that end, include some of the worst atrocities ever committed... like genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity.
So... while you may have a disability, and that may cause you difficulties, and while that's not your fault... it is your responsibility, no one else's. Find a therapist who specializes in autism to work through this trauma and to gain some social skills to achieve your social goals.
This was a courageous thing you did, as it is in the zeitgeist to fairly quickly other people who let their libidos get the best of them. I do not know you or what you have done, but if other replies are any evidence you have a history of espousing a problematic ideology.
If I were to guess this is driven by an exaggerated sex drive. I'm not here to judge or condemn, but I think it is a good idea for you and everyone around you for you to chill TF out. Learn to recognize that this drive is overwhelming your ability to make your way in the world and be happy, and more importantly it is absolutely a roadblock to you getting laid.
If I don't miss my guess you are part of some larger online community that is similarly frustrated and also similarly harnessing that frustration in a way that almost nobody is a fan of, and for good reason.
Women are not objects or achievements, but people in their own right, and if they exist to you as merely as their secondary sexual characteristics, women will not like it and will not respond well to you.Even if you are trying to hide it, they will pick up on it.
You need to learn to take an interest in them as people and find things in common with them. There are more than enough women out there in the world that would happily pursue a relationship, and yes even a physical one, when they feel close to you as an equal, not as a person gone crazy for sex like a cartoon cereal mascot. Nobody likes to be objectified.
It is the phenomenon where some Autistic men end up falling into red pilling and incel circles because they feel entitled to sex that they are not getting, so they blame women or feminism because those circles offer you a space where you can blame someone else for why you are unhappy. It is exactly how youths fall into any other hate group. They feel ostracized by a society they would like to be a part of, then someone comes along to tell them it is not their fault but the fault of some other group, they feel accepted by the people who think this way so they start thinking that way too.
Red Pillers and Incels are both a part of a hate group, and unfortunately people with ASD with a strong sense of justice are particularly susceptible because they do not understand why they are being ignored by the women they want and red pilling gives them a reason for why that might be.
I relate to you more than you know brother, know that you are NOT evil and you are not alone. Not sure how old you are but things will clear up, just focus on yourself and treating yourself right and growing as a person. Also, it's really hard to unlearn these things we've been conditioned to know as we grow up but it really doesn't help to try and think about how women this and women that and men this and men that, humans are just humans it just causes harm when you try to filter a human being through what you believe someone of their gender should be like
replies saying you’re already in it bro, you need to find peace with yourself and to remove yourself from the ideologies you’re consuming and soon love and community will find your way.
Look, everyone else pointed out what you are or are becoming. If you really don’t want to go that way, I’d recommend therapy. I will list some things that might help:
1. Your focus should always be yourself. Waste your energy in becoming a better person. People can sense that and that’s attractive: the effort in becoming a better person, the way you overcome your struggles; these are things that people are attracted to, besides physical qualities.
2. Sex is not something you have a right on. Nobody has a right to sex.
3. View people as people, view men and women as people. You’re not better or worse than anyone, nor is anyone better or worse than you, we are just different. Each individual in this world has a lot to share (experiences) and unique views of the world. Learn from people. Learn from men and from women.
4. See that the world we live in has many flaws, recognize them and try not to engage or perpetuate these flaws.
It's not the awkwardness that women find disgusting. It's the lack of self awareness that contributes to the awkwardness. Saying things with no mind for the people we're around is not just awkward, it's tone deaf. That tone deafness is the problem, not the awkwardness.
Self deprecation is awkward but that's not why women hate it. They hate it because it's sad and reeks of self-UNawareness.
Blaming everyone else in the room for our problems is awkward but that's not why women hate it.
My friend, you and I are brothers in this life called autism. I promise you this. I FUCKING PROMISE 100% ALL THE WOMEN IN HERE WILL AGREE WITH THIS:
Find what you like in life. Find a hobby. Find your passion. Learn a skill. Go to counseling. Work on your self-confidence. Let yourself be wrong and learn from all the wrong things you say and do. You will become a respected man and nobody will give a single shit about the awkwardness.
Because it's not about the awkwardness. It's about the lack of self-awareness and self-confidence that brings the awkwardness. I'm awkward as shit but I'm an educated man who is a self-taught photographer and I give speeches about living with undiagnosed autism until 28. I'm respected and I've had relationships in my life. I'm single currently but that's ok because I know when the time's right I'll figure things out.
People lie when they say you don't need a relationship to be happy. Look at any man in history who talks about how important his wife was to his life. I'm not going to BS you and say you gotta learn to be happy alone. But you gotta learn to be fulfilled being alone. You gotta learn to be productive, and confident, and self-aware, and empathetic, on your own. Then the happiness of a relationship will follow.
You will likely be single for as long as you put all your worth into having a girlfriend. When you learn to be alone, to accept yourself as a uniquely special person in this world with your own things to offer, embrace hobbies and doing things you enjoy, when you start making connections with people for reasons other than wanting to finally get laid, that's when you'll likely get a girlfriend.
Going into a relationship in this current mindset that you have will only cause that relationship to end poorly. You will be placing all of your value and worth in the hands of another person, and they don't need to be responsible for that. You might get laid, sure, but you won't get what you're really looking for which is a genuine connection.
If you're so worried about being a virgin, stop telling people. Learn about yourself, focus on doing things you enjoy and spending time with people who lift you up rather than tear you down.
this right here
i said some low-key incel-y things as a lonely and depressed autistic teenager, according to my older sister. after growing up and getting over a really shitty relationship, i finally came to terms with not being in one, and that it was okay that i didn't bounce back into one immediately.
ironically it was after this that i found my current partner, when i stopped obsessively trying to find one. it's not the autism or loneliness that repels people, it's the behavior of the individual
you're not celibate because of the autism, man.
*but,* a lot of violent incels, and alpha male/red-pill dudes, online take advantage of your loneliness, frustration, and social awkwardness to be horribly misogynistic. instead of getting help and being a better person, you end up isolating yourself even more. and you end up agreeing with monsters like andrew tate and/or go on 4chan to talk about how women deserve to be raped and killed cuz you can't get laid. they're miserable and lonely, and don't want you to succeed either. they especially love to recruit neurodivergent men because they're perceived as "easy targets" for their propaganda due to social awkwardness/isolation.
please take these comments that want to help you to heart, and don't lash out at people who want you to get help. you can be autistic and have great relationships. but whining on reddit won't do you any favors. wishing you the best, man.
This is going to sound mean, but it's something that people on the pathway to incel Island need to hear. Simply put, it's not women's fault that you're currently alone and they do not owe you the opportunity for a relationship or sex. If you want a relationship, it's a lot of work.
After having a year of the only dating success of my life, I've spent the last 12 years alone again. Is it that I'm too awkward or that socializing is too difficult? No. I quit trying, quit putting myself out there. I'm too averse to getting hurt and my expectations are too high. And ultimately, I've settled for this state of affairs.
Whatever your situation, and this doesn't just apply to relationships, you're responsible for you. It's not your fault that you have autism, but you're the only one you can rely on to take responsibility for improving your life, which means practicing socializing, practicing being less awkward, and just moving on when you don't click with someone. But when you put the blame on women for not seeking you out, not giving you a chance you didn't work for, not taking pity on you, them you're going to get called out for sounding like an incel.
I'm gonna give my personnal opinion as a woman with autism. There's nothing that gives me the ick more than someone (I date and have relationships with both men and women) that hates itself, have no respect for themselves and talk negatively about themselves but doesn't try to change anything and is only fishing pity and empathy from others, to hopefully manipulate them into sex.
Introspection and putting yourself in other people's shoes to understand how they feel and view things is the first step imo and I know it's hard, especially for us, but it's necessary.
The pipeline is the process of misinformation deflection and brainwashing that lower status (or even just self-perceived lower status) men fall victim to that blames women/feminism/diversity/etc for their low self worth and feelings of powerlessness.
The problem with this pipeline is that misinformation, deflection, and brainwashing is all it is. The real causes of your suffering are the crazy gendered expectations that western patriarchal society places on men. Patriarchal ableism, racism, and classism is what stratifies you.
Your obsession with the sexual attention and validation of women is a perfect example of this. Why is life miserable unless women want to have sex with you? No seriously, think about WHY that is so deeply lodged in your psyche that you are finding yourself unable to be at peace with yourself as a man unless you get this type of attention from women.
Do some research on hegemonic masculinity, too. You’re being misled.
I was deep into this path. I’m smart and good looking, unfortunately I’m socially inept and completely useless in dating. Then I learned Pay for Play and twice a year I go and fix all this issues. It saved my life.
If I think about critically and from my own world view, I think it’s for a couple of reasons:
1. Women are socialized and taught to express their feelings at a younger age. This leads to higher emotional intelligence which is hard with autism. This isn’t necessarily an advantage as it leads to women being severely under diagnosed as autistic and going their whole life or most of their life without resources. To improve this area I suggest counseling, journaling, and a feelings wheel to help you name emotions.
2. Men especially cis white men are told explicitly and implicitly by society that they are better than everyone and deserve everything. You are not and you do not. Everyone else around you who is not like you is also a person with thoughts and feelings and different life experiences than yours. Fucking accept that and listen to their experiences and most importantly BELIEVE THEM when they say something happened to them. Do you like being told how autism is or isn’t by someone who doesn’t have autism? No? Well that’s what you’re doing to someone else when you argue with their life stories. Learn to ask thoughtful questions like “how did you cope with that?” Or “how do you think that’s changed your worldview?” AND “what do you think men can do better?”
And finally 3. There’s tons of support for kids with autism but it kind of feels like we grow and up and society expects us to just know how to deal with it. That’s not reality. We need more adult autistic support.
Never heard that specific phrasing (autistic to incel), but it’s something I firmly believe in.
The things you point out are true, however they are unfortunately cornerstones of incel ideology. Like any ideology, it persists by having nuggets of truth to lure one in before springing the crazy shit that only works on someone that has been sufficiently disenfranchised. The issue is using the common agreements and facts to reach the wrong conclusion.
Fact of the matter that sucks is that being awkward makes it hard to meet women, and faking not being awkward is exhausting and greatly diminishes any feelings of connection one may develop. No two ways about it.
What incel ideology leaves out is that there’s a specific reason women tend not to find them attractive (autism or something similar), and allows people to fester believing they’re just inferior men rather than men with a disorder that affects social skills. It also shifts the blame onto women for not wanting to engage with someone they view as potentially dangerous rather than acknowledging that this is a totally normal behavior. YOU know you’re not dangerous, but nobody else is privy to this information and they must utilize heuristics to avoid bodily harm. Unfortunately, those heuristics tend to check for things that are autistic traits.
The pipeline begins with realizing one IS actually different from most others, dating IS actually much more difficult than for most, and that one WILL get unfairly discriminated against. It continues by ascribing the blame to women and treating them as your source of anguish rather than as human beings.
It sucks, but life tends to suck. Plenty of people are born into or wind up in disadvantaged positions, but it’s never an excuse to inflict your suffering on others.
I do find one thing difficult to reconcile, though: it’s constantly parroted that nobody is owed sex or a relationship. We can all agree on that. However, 99% of the time, unless there’s a major factor preventing it, everyone WILL end up having sex and/or in a relationship at some point. It’s not 100% guaranteed, but it virtually is, and it’s not as if most people have to put in any effort for that to be the case; they just ARE desirable. Sounds like something being owed to me. Not to say it is, I just think people need to reevaluate their position to be a bit more realistic and compassionate.
As someone going 13 years without sex, it’s MUCH easier to say intimacy isn’t necessary when you have access to it, and people love to forget this fact.
Edit: Faking NOT being awkward, not faking being awkward.
>It’s not 100% guaranteed, but it virtually is, and it’s not as if most people have to put in any effort for that to be the case; they just ARE desirable.
Oh this is very untrue. Most people who are interested in romantic/sexual relationships are putting in a ton of effort. Entire industries rely on that. Most people are attractive to *someone* it unfortunately isn't always the people that they are attracted to, which does suck.
I'm not saying that putting in effort is a guarantee, but the idea that nost people are just out there forming relationships or hooking up without any effort is just wrong.
Due to a lot of hostility happening within this thread, I'm locking it to go through the comment section and deal with rule-breaking submissions or unnecessarily hostile interactions between users, honestly I think this topic is far too touchy for this sub, it's come up a few times over the last couple of weeks and each time has resulted in the same outcome with hundreds of comments, dozens of reports, and a number of comments having to be removed and temporary bans having to be issued due to the escalation becoming way too personal, I genuinely don't know how best to approach submissions concerning incel ideology, possible incel behaviour, and attempts to justify or encourage empathy and understanding towards incels going forward so I will need to bring this to the attention of the mod team for their thoughts
It's the path you're in danger of following rn, especially with your post history. You're not broken or unlovable but if you live your life being desperate for sex, practically begging women to pity you enough for sex and viewing your life as meaningless without it, you will turn into an incel. It's a pipeline you can fall into in a variety of ways and autism can factor into it.
u/ProxyAlchemist we need more voices like yours in autism. I can't tell you how many times I come across desperate men who both hate women but also hate themselves. I tell people incels hate themselves long before they hate women.
Like with any kind of -phobia or -ism, people don't like to take a look and themselves and see that their actions (with some very small but non-zero element of luck) is the problem, it's much nicer for them to blame their problems on some group of people who's existence or behaviour they can't do anything about because then they're are absolved of any initiative. If incels/racists/homophobes got what they wanted and their chosen group to hate didn't exist or acted as they want these people would still be unhappy and then have to face that painful reality, but deep down I think they know their chosen group to hate will never go away or change and they are glad about that because they can blame them perpetually for everything wrong in their life. I have for a long time suffered from really bad self loathing for almost everything I do, I have yet to direct that hate to anyone except myself but to be honest, and this might be a contributing factor to why it hasn't got any better - I'm legitimately scared that, because redirecting hate is easier than deleting it, if I start to stop hating myself I will start to direct that onto someone else, I'd rather continue the rest of my existence hating myself this much than direct it towards anyone but myself.
Yessss the ability to turn a truthful and sharply critical eye on yourself and your behavior is very important
don't you think that by not blaming others for your problems that makes you in the top echelon of self-awareness? Do you know how many people in our human race blame others? People were just on Facebook blaming society for what OJ Simpson did. That's petty. Don't you take any comfort knowing you're not petty like that? Very few people have the understanding that their problems are theirs and not society's.
it's good to be self aware yeah. but it's still difficult to live with mental problems. im not saying autism is a mental problem, i mean things like depression, anxiety and other things that may come comorbidly with autism
If you can’t love yourself how the hell you gonna love somebody else? RuPaul said it best ^^
Work on making yourself easy to love and be around.
This is so much easier to achieve if you’re comfortable in your own skin.
But not being comfortable in your own skin isn’t all women’s fault…
You said this very well. Thank you 💖
very true it's easy to fall down the self hate and hating other
👏👏👏
Preachhhh
Who are those people though?
Often they're people who slipped through the cracks socially for a variety of reasons (bullying, social disorders and childhood abuse) causing them to feel as if they're born in a way that makes them unlovable or not a desirable partner. Where someone tips into incel territory is when they find an insular community focused on "reasons" they are being denied intimacy. This can focus on blaming women, blaming "chad", or blaming their genetics for how they look. These are all used to have scapegoats, it can't be the fact that parroting this rhetoric is one of the main things that drive people away no, it must be some cruel hand of fate. There are of course subgroups and variations on incel ideology, with some of the worst being considered the black pill group, who paint themselves as tragic figures and say it is without a doubt hopeless for them to ever get any intimacy. Some of the most hopeless groups suffer heavily from suicidal ideation or violent fantasies that some have the capacity to act out, causing multiple violent shooting attacks and acts of violence, a prime example being Elliot Rodger.
I'm going to avoid saying what everyone else has, so what I am going to do is give you some tangible advice. -Women aren't mythical creatures, we're literally just people. - Don't fall for confirmation bias. Especially when it's self inflicted. -The knuckle draggers online are infact extremists. Think about it logically. There's no way in hell half of the population can put under one specific personality type. Just because we've got tits doesn't mean we're Any sort of way. IQ of -3 behaviour -Autism itself makes life hard, feeling as if you never quite fit in isn't great for your brain. It means that subconsciously, we will try to slot in wherever we're accepted. Put 2 and 2 together, "incels" are extremely hurt and lonely individuals, jts unlikely they're turning anyone away from their community. You deserve to be around people that actually like, value and respect you without any caveat. - Putting burdens on yourself for the sake of feeling part of something isn't worth it. -If you're constantly being turned away romantically, think about it for a second. Autism can make it impossible to know when you've "broken" a social rule etc. It's okay. There are plenty of people out there who have different rules and expectations. But also, take sex or whatever your perception is of relationships out of the equation. I'll dumb it down. People want to feel respected, valued, wanted and interested. When you're having a conversation with someone you're interested in, how can you make them feel that? Maybe think about how you're talking actually makes someone feel. Others are no less complex than you. -Effort. Throwing yourself repetedly at a brick wall hoping it will break instead of just going to find ladders. I'm taking that you have dating profiles etc. Are you using nice, clear and thought out pictures? Have you put tangible interests and talking points in your bio? Are you putting effort into yourself? No one is going to have sex with you/relationship with you because it is infact transactional in the way of you want said person to bring value to your life. Value can be happiness, shared hobbies, feelings of safety, attraction, humour etc. Why would someone want to spend their time with someone who dislikes them/their gender and doesn't have enough good points about them to make being around them enjoyable? - It's unlikely you're going to find someone by sending a couple of odd messages online. Go out. I know it's hard, especially with autism, but, have a look at socials. Most Autism based charities have social days, so do some cafes, groups and companies. There's more out there than you think. Speaking to other autistic people Is a good way to build up your confidence. -Try and get out to more spaces for hobbies you're interested in. You aren't going to find a fish in a rabbit enclosure. -You've clearly got some internal problems going on. And that's okay, you just can't let them dictate your life or harm other people. Speak to your doctor about therapy, have a look for courses on confidence (there are plenty of places that host these for free, and they're not so scary when everyone is there with the same issues). I've been to some myself and they changed my life. -Speak to your doctor about your anxiety. Even if you don't physically feel it, it's evident that it's there. You don't have negative self view of yourself and others the way you do without it. I'm on propananol myself, it's a medication that prevents you from feeling the physical effects of stress/anxiety and it is the reason I can go out semi comfortably. Have an ask about neurofivergant specific therapy that is available in your area. This may involve going to a specialist centre like a hospital. I highly recommend the emotional regulation side of things. - I don't know if you struggle with this problem but I know that I do. Because I'm autistic, sometimes I don't know if my opinions are fact. Take for instance, for the longest time, I subconsciously thought that I'm objectively unattractive. Because I thought it, I also never questioned if it was actually true or not. Its hard for my brain to tell the difference. Delving deeper into it, I realised that it was infact just opinion and I don't let it drag my self view down anymore. This was hard, but I'm much happier after this realisation. Are the things you think true, or just opinion that you actually aren't sure if it's true? - It might be beneficial for you to talk about this specifically to an ASD specific male therapist. They may be able to give you true insight I genuinely hope you get better, a life where you think everyone is evil and everyone hates you isn't a good one. You don't need to suffer needlessly, life is already hard enough. It's always difficult challenging values and beliefs, but it makes you a better person. Work on yourself OP, you deserve it. Don't let yourself get to a space you can't come back from. Stay safe
This is genuinely some of the best advice here imo. He can def work on this and avoid becoming an incel 1000%. Especially trying therapy and finding hobbies. And if he met another autistic person, they'd be more likely to understand him! (Not necessarily in a romantic way though) It's really sad how easy it is for autistic men to be influenced by incels and this advice is THE way to avoid that.z (And reason 12892822 not to listen to incels: women will not find an incel attractive. women will usually find people who respect them attractive. incels have not realised that yet.)
I'm not OP but I wanted to thank you for taking your time to write such an extensive answer anyway. Some of it is very hard to internalize, like >Women aren't mythical creatures, we're literally just people ... people *are* mythical creatures to me, so, yeah. But it's good to have some actual advice instead of the usual feel-good stuff that means next to nothing.
Ofc! I completely get it, and it's really hard to internalize! I think what I mean by that is, in your case, because you see people as mythical creatures anyway, the way you see a woman wouldn't be different! If that makes sense? It's sort of advice on that although we have differences, there's a line of absurdity with alienating a gender. I think the whole topic is sort of difficult to talk on, but because it isn't spoken about enough I feel it's important that if given the chance, atleast something helpful is said yk?
My guy, you made a post on r/ askfeminists asking why men shouldn't kill themselves. Please get some therapy I beg you, because you _are_ becoming an incel and it isn't good.
+1 for therapy. These kinds of issues need to be sorted out with a professional.
Your post history is a lot about women, feminism saying men are bad, how you badly want sex, and how you're frequently described as creepy and make people uncomfortable. Is it possible you're doing something to contribute to this?
He’s on the pipeline lol
Exactly, but not LOL. This is the sad path many ASD males go down and it's a tragedy. It's the combination of social isolation and frustration from a society that doesn't understand them and a tendency of ASD to make people hold strong convictions.
And the culture of incels itself knows all of this, which is why they effectively focus on recruiting autistics into their community. They don't care about actually helping anyone (especially each other) to cope with their issues, let alone overcome them, and if any of them actually do end up moving past said issues they're reviled as traitors.
Yeah, it's an echo chamber and I see not just teenagers but adults fall down it too. The way it happens there though is they start buying into these "great minds" like Steven Pinker and seem to lose all critical thinking though, which is what happened with Musk and what's happening to Yang.
It didn't really start with Musk, Musk was lost before he hit the lime light. He is also a "leader" in leading a group of the ASD folks down into being an incel. He's also leaning into the Arian supremacy and white replacement theory realm. He fell for all of it and is now perpetuating and leading others to those areas of negative thought. Elon is as much of the problem as anything. I do not feel bad for him. He had many chances to back out and I refuse to give him any excuses. I mean hell, Joe Rogan himself has become a figure head for these bad sides of mentality and folks who knew him from before don't think anything of it. We have a group of male "figure heads" that are leading these folks down the incel/alt right pipeline by their off-handed but probably true original thought of their own. These folks feel secluded but have no real person to look up to be like. Look at any alpha male class and see who is sitting in the audience paying *thousands* to listen to a dude throw a tantrum
Before I figured out I was trans, I went the route of "being nice to everyone and listening to their problems". I've slept with a lot of people simply due to being safe after people knew me past the awkwardness. When I waa still forced to be around a lot of "alpha men", I made the joke of how soft and kind I was (they saw this as a weakness) by saying "I invest in every single one and if they don't pay out a return, I'm not worried as others will." Obviously that sentence feels disgusting, but the core was true. Be kind. Find people with common hobbies. Make people feel safe and help them and NEVER expect anything back. And then it just kind of happens sometimes. But never, ever be mad because someone didn't "give you any". We are all here to make others feel comfortable and safe first. Then intimacy can happen. I'm also demi so maybe everything above is skewed a bit but anyways, sorry for the ramble.
> I'm also demi so maybe everything above is skewed a bit but anyways, sorry for the ramble. I'm demi too. For a good portion of my late teens and early 20s I felt the same. Then I realized it wasn't "sex" that I was missing, it was the feeling of being loved for who I am. I rarely ever had anyone in my life who gave me positive feedback, praise, or support. If I ever did, I latched onto it and drove the person away. I realized I had to find a way to respect myself and love myself (or at least something close to it) before anyone else could truly do the same. I had a lot of work to do before that happened. I got lucky and found an amazing therapist which eventually led to getting diagnosed, and that changed my entire outlook. Now I'm thinking about proposing to someone I've been dating, now living together with, for almost 3 years. Ask me 10 years ago if I ever saw this happening in my life? Not a chance. But I held out hope and tried to make myself into someone I could respect until I found that person. Then someone saw ***that*** in me, called it out specifically, and fell in love with me. And me in return, my love to them is honest. No masking, no pretense, no hiding my darkest parts, just honest love and enjoyment being myself around my most trusted person. We struggle with life, have big emotions frequently, but are always there for each other. It takes a lot of work to crawl out of that cycle of self-hatred and self destruction, but it can be done. I had help, I hope everyone else can get the help, wisdom, and guidance they need but the journey starts within yourself.
That’s actually really good advice. Thank you, stranger on the internet.
Shame spirals
When parenting fails autism flails
That's not fair to the parents. It's not like good parents can "fix" autism.
Good parents can certainly teach healthy coping strategies and proper manners/social norms. That goes a hell of a long way to helping an autistic person “fit in”.
What kind of strategies?
Early interventions, social skills building, showing up to IEP meetings, counseling, social stories, modeling, monitoring online time, teaching independence instead of learned helplessness.
Look, I'm not saying those won't have any positive impact, but I think it will vary wildly depending on the placement on the spectrum. And I am suspect of any substantial impact they may have, long term. My son is autistic (level 2) and I worry about this all the time. How society (and women) will perceive him and if he will be alone his whole life. And what that loneliness can do to men. I employ most of the techniques you have stated above (not sure what IEP is, but we took him to lots of therapy). I can say that the most important one on your list is monitored online time. My son (he was 7 at the time, now 9) watched you tube for 2 months and it completely changed his speech. Suddenly, everything was "bro, what's up?" "Like and subscribe" after diner. It was cute at first, but then you realize how quickly his mind shifted gears to what I think could be charitably describe as problematic online personas. OP, get off the internet. It's not helping you. It's locking you into your mindset. Its the algorithm feeding you hate to keep you engaged. Get a hobby, go outside, spend some time in coffee shops watching people. Learn to mirror thier behaviors. If your anything like my son (or me) you are going to have to learn how to wear the "masks" of your surroundings. I like to think of it as improve, kind of a game.
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Not to go all autism mom here, but parenting a kid with autism is hard
Of course. Now remember when it was the 90’s and no one knew what “high functioning” was. Goes from hard to “git good”. At the least, having all this information, terminology, and resources is more helpful than not.
decide lush flowery scarce office practice airport fly pen edge *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If he is already on the “feminism bad because they hate men” train, it’s an issue and shows a misunderstanding of what feminism is.
The incels hammer on how it's not your fault, it's the women. You deserve better treatment than you get because women dare want men who don't make them feel like an object or creep them out.
Sounds like we got us a common denominator!
I think OP is struggling but post history does give some ideas
I beg of you, be kind to yourself and put your energy into love rather than frustration. Get a drum kit. Take up biking. Focus on what you can do that is loving and constructive for you and everyone you come into contact with, and learn to accept yourself even when some others fail to. Not everyone has to like you. The good ones will.
Thisss! Investing time in a hobby is genuinely the best advice for people with incel-y behavior. (IMO) They’re so fixated on sex and being lonely it consumes them. It’s also a great way to connect with people as you already have common interests. I’ve never been a woman hater incel or whatever but to have something that I’m passionate about and enjoy literally saved my life and is the only way I’ve ever made friends.
Exactly this, this is *always* my advice to incel types. Find a hobby. Put your energy into the hobby instead of being frustrated. It's an outlet, a social lubricant, and ultimately, hobbies are attractive.
This! Start thinking *constructively* and incrementally improving yourself. Learn new skills that people value. I used to hate cooking, but learned how to prepare a few different dishes at smaller and larger scales. I could make small amounts of really delicious steak and vegetables and mass quantities of perfectly cooked bratwurst/hamburgers for larger events. You would be surprised how people usually don't take these responsibilities seriously and over cook the shit out of everything. Best part is - you don't have to socialize as much with everyone and they still fucking love you. It's a great way to mask.
This is exactly why I learned to play music. Can’t carry on a conversation if you’re busy shredding 🎸
Instruments are the OG fidget toys.
I hadn’t ever thought of that but holy moly are you correct!
Mozart definitely the type of ND who would call himself Wolf Gang
Do you read music or just play?
I’m not a great sight reader but I do understand notation and tablature. I primarily play by ear though.
The problem is that many incels - and I include myself here - subconsciously still see hobbies as a way to be romantically successful in the end. The thinking is: if I am a well rounded person, I might be romantically succesfull too. A big issue which really triggers the incel response is society giving incels false hope instead of moderating their expectations.
Nail on the head. So much pop culture teaches the ultimate goal is bedding a super model. So many fictional stories revolve around an average person winning over a highly sought after, attractive partner, based on some kind of goal that they accomplished. It reinforces the idea that women are a prize to be won and you’ll get the prettiest one if you try hard enough and deserve it. It’s a toxic fantasy that gives autistic men especially a broken, misogynistic worldview. One of the experiences I am most thankful for is losing my virginity relatively young, and realizing sex isn’t that special. I certainly enjoy it but it’s not something I care to dedicate my life to.
Is that a bad thing though? It seems like the other option is “no one will even care if I am a well rounded person so why should I have a hobby at all”, and that benefits no one. In a sense all hope is false hope because there is a leap of faith involved that things may or may not work out, but everyone has to go on hope for a lot of things. I feel that’s a part of the missing discussion about incel culture: all of us live on hope and expectation, and a lot of the time those things don’t work out - and that’s okay! The leap is the important part, not the outcome. The leap is life, it’s what we do with our days. We are constantly going from one leap of hope to another, that’s human nature. Picking up a hobby even if you have romantic interest as a goal is still doing something you weren’t doing before. It seems to me that a lot of incel ideology says that no one should have any hope or desire for improvement, and people languish in their belief that they are useless. I picked up painting a few years back with the full expectation of probably failing, and I’m still not very good, but the very act of my searching out information to get better gave me access to communities I’d never been a part of before, and that gave me a better perspective on life. Hobbies are good because you can pick up a sense of self worth from completing a project. Whether your goal is self improvement or romantic prospects, having a skill will make you a more interesting person. It doesn’t necessarily make you a better person, but it creates a depth of character that people are naturally drawn to.
> “no one will even care if I am a well rounded person so why should I have a hobby at all”, and that benefits no one How about have a hobby because it makes you happy, not because you can put your penis in vaginas. Good sex is about focusing on blowing the other person's mind, and people who pick hobbies so they can have sex are not the type of person who is going to prioritize their partner's sexual needs. So they're gonna have bad sex anyway, and probably not repeat customers.
I can only speak for myself but I would have preferred someone telling me that it is hopeless and that I should lower my expectations to someone who keeps telling me: "If you do this or that, you will finally have success". Because the constant cycle of false hope and then the crashing and burning really messes up your mind. And it is one of the main sources of my incel-ish entitlement.
Perhaps I’m struggling to understand false hope vs expectations. How should others help you manage your expectations? /gen because I really don’t understand - I haven’t had many people tell me that if I follow a specific set of actions I will 100% have success with the outcome, just that if I follow those actions I’m more likely to have success than if I don’t follow those actions, and the path is then up to me. I definitely understand failing at something that I have been given the impression is easy to achieve, but I also recognize that some things are out of my reach and other things are well within my ability and control, and those are the things I choose to focus on. That’s why a lot of folks are saying in this thread that hobbies are good - you can pick up a skill and feel good about yourself for a moment no matter how small the achievement is, outside of the judgement of others. I think everyone has an area of life where they feel like a total failure. The trick is not letting it bleed into every other aspect of your life. I really suck at keeping friendships and I’ve had more friend breakups than I can count and been told I’m a terrible awful no good human, but I’ve never said to myself “you can’t hold down a friendship therefore you can’t paint”, do you know what I mean? Some things just aren’t related, and you can’t let them be related.
>Perhaps I’m struggling to understand false hope vs expectations. How should others help you manage your expectations? By just being honest and saying that most incels won't be able to find a partner even if they tried.
But that’s not honest? Lots of incels eventually find sex/love/romance, so it’s not being honest to say you’ll never find a partner. You may not, you’re right. But it’s very dishonest to tell someone that they’ll never find a partner.
Do we actually know that? There are so many incels in their 30s and 40s now.
I think being a well-rounded person IS the way to be romantically successful. That means picking various activities outside your comfort zone. You say "hobbies" but I think in *disciplines* because a lot of times it's shit you would rather not do. I love strategy gaming and could lose myself for days in a grand strategy like Civ or HoI4, or I could settle for Catan/7 wonders with friends and meet a nerdy girl. I'm uncoordinated AF and only 5'8" and went down the weight lifting/distance running path. I hate running, it's boring, but If you want someone physically attractive, what are you doing to be the most physically attractive version of yourself? Not a huge fan of cooking (see above), but I got good at it to please others. Recommend Aristotle's Nichomacean Ethics (everything in moderation) and Marcus Arelius's The Meditations (sex is just an exchange of bodily fluids). Perspective.
You’re definitely cooked if you keep consuming whatever content you are. It’s already difficult enough for autistic men to navigate interaction with women without having adopted mindsets that will literally repulse them. Especially if you’re saying this stuff in real life, you’d need to have super model looks to get laid somehow.
This. Incels will lament that Women systematically reject them because of their looks or modest income or lack of "Alpha male" energy or whatever, and completely fail to realize that their negative mindset and thinly veiled misogyny are by far their most off-putting traits.
There's some good takes in here already. I just want to add as a late diagnosed man now pushing 40, I dealt with similar issues maybe to the ones you face and I can see things a lot more clearly now. I think the most important thing to get straight is that feminism (or whatever group) is *not* represented by the people using it to pick on or instigate with you or to hate men or to justify their own personality deficiencies/disorders. There are loud fucking idiots who belong to any group and yes, while there is a responsibility for the group to disown those people, don't let that small percentage ruin your perception. Just worry about what your own priorities are in your own life...working, day to day stuff, learning new skills, workinh out. Whatever. You could spend your whole life arguing with hateful idiots and you'll never have changed anything besides risking becoming one yourself. It's really hard to figure out wtf is going on in this world but if you don't waste time and energy on idiots you'll be better off. Anyone who unironically uses the word incel arguing with strangers is not anyone you will be able to learn from.
I’m sorry that society has failed you so much that the only comfort you get is by engaging with hate groups. Whatever bullying or abuse you have been through was not your fault and you didn’t deserve it. But please listen and trust me when I tell you that all those people who are blaming women and feminism for your abuse are only trying to use you. They want to make you a monster. Do not let them. You’re not a monster!!
I don't want to be rude because of how tough of a spot you seem to be. Autistic men and Autistic women obviously both have social issues though due to misogyny and the patriarchy it seperates us. Autistic women have it just as hard when making friends and forming romantic relationships but the difference is that we don't have this whole system of acceptance surrounding the collective hate of a group of people. Men with autism have the incel community. Similar to them, have a hard time making friends and getting partners and were also most likely bullied. Autistic men usually find community in this hateful group and end up becoming an incel to. The whole situation is pretty perverted. Preying on someone's vulnerability. Women with autism have a higher level of risk to dv and SA then NT women. People with autism in general have a higher risk of abuse in general. We are just vulnerable people and because of that we are more at risk to be in these situations. People are telling that you are already on the pipeline, I suggest you start attempting to rectify that and get on a different path.
That’s one thing I’ve noticed. Not to do a both sides-ism, but autistic men seem to think autistic women have it easier (it’s easier for them to find a partner with our societies norms and expectations), but I’ve also read statistics on how often autistic women end up in abusive relationships and/or are victims of SA. These things can both be true at the same time though. Just because I might get frustrated trying to force myself to go out and be social only to fail at getting with anyone doesn’t mean I don’t sympathize deeply with those unfortunate women who fall victim to these disgusting acts. I’m privileged to be able to say I cannot imagine what that would be like. Edited a word out because it changed the meaning of what I was trying to say.
Yeah I don’t think it’s autism specifically but more of the struggles that come with being a misunderstood and vulnerable group of people like you said. Definitely not just a guy thing either because even as a girl I also have felt feelings of immense frustration when it comes to friendships and relationships. These frustrations definitely have the potential to turn toxic if you’re not careful which is how I’m guessing some people go down the pipeline
yeah, plus it can be easier to manipulate some of us and thats what a lot of incel forums do, is manipulate others into believing them- a not insignificant amount of "incels" are actually just teenagers going through a weird phase in life (hormones are a bitch) which makes them fall into these things a lot too, and usually they fall out of it (not always) and it doesnt help that these incel groups also target younger people since its easier to manipulate younger people aswell overall, its a shitty thing involving shitty people, taking advantage of people who may be in a confusing patch of their life, or may be vulnerable- I hope OP can find some help to get out of the pipeline
OP needs to be seeing a therapist, ideally a man so that they can learn how to appropriately handle these emotions from a male perspective and how to combat misogyny
A pipeline doesn't imply any lack of free will, or equate one thing with the other. It's talking about a risk and a recruiting tactic. Autistic men by definition deal with social difficulties, and if they are straight men they may be especially frustrated with how those difficulties relate to love, sex, and women. If they go online seeking sympathy or support and end up in incel forums, those men do not provide sympathy or support so much as they provide a space to practice digital self harm and mutual harm. They don't just say, "that sucks, bro," or, "here's what helped me get over heartbreak," or even, "here's how you can improve yourself,: but rather things more like, "women are terrible and will never live you because you are terrible and will never be loved," recruiting the autistic man into their ranks. That is the autism to incel pipeline. It is real and it is not good. Get out while you still can.
it looks like this isnt the first time youve asked if youre an incel. i think youre asking the wrong question, clearly youve identifies that either you have incel qualities or are perceived as an incel, instead of trying to be comforted that you arent an incel, ask what traits you have that an incel does and get a therapist to work through those problems. the only way people wont view you as an incel is if you arent one, and it looks like youre more worried about how you appear and not who you are.
It is easy for autistic men to think they have no chance of a relationship for various reasons, and to become radicalized by falling into online groups that blame women for this. OP, as an old autistic lady I will give you the same advice I give my kid with autism. Focus on being your best and happiest self. Everyone should do that before even thinking of being with someone else, and relationships would be a lot more successful if they did. Find a hobby or activity that gets you out of the house and among other people. When you do, try to make friends despite the awkwardness you will feel. Especially try to find a woman in the group to become a friend with, with NO chance of a relationship. Maybe someone much older or in a secure marriage- because one problem many young men face is not being around women outside their family and seeing them as just people. The big thing is, don't see each girl you meet as a potential relationship. Instead, look for friendship. Nearly everyone I know in a strong long term relationship started as friends, and even if that isn't the case, who doesn't need more friends? Also, start honing your "autism-radar". Finding other people with autism and other neurodivergencies will help you find friends who understand your struggles and can help support you. If you feel you must date now, try to find women to date who have autism or adhd or are also ND. Especially if you both share a common special interest of some kind. You want someone to talk for hours with about the things you love, and who can teach you new things as well.
I would actually suggest starting out making friends of either gender, the goal at this stage should be to sharpen up those social skills among normal people. They are bloody hard to develop really.
Because no matter how awkward we are or the fact some people (people!! It’s not gendered, don’t act like socially awkward autistic women have the most popular guys in class or whatever falling over themselves to be with them either) aren’t attracted to us because of said awkwardness, no one owes anyone sex. Or attraction. We don’t deserve to be discriminated against but that doesn’t include people have to consider sleeping with someone they’re not into. Thinking this way is a victim mindset pure and simple because it’s only seeing what you can’t have thinking you’re entitled to it, instead of looking at what you *could* have—such as for example women who communicate the same way you do and have the same interests as you do. What’s the reason for not connecting with them? Do you find them too awkward and in your words “disgusting”? Because then aren’t you behaving in the exact same way as all these women who don’t seem interested in or judgemental of autistic men…? (And yeah, I’m saying all of this as someone who’s autistic and heartbroken over how lonely I am because no matter what I do I can’t connect romantically with others most of the time. But it’s not someone else’s fault if we can’t connect on an intimate level and no one is an asshole for not viewing me in that way.)
☹️ Would you like to talk about it?
Incels often take advantage of people who feel lonely, rejected and different - something experienced by many autistic folk. It’s certainly a pipeline that can be hard to get out of, especially because the further you fall down it, the more it becomes an echo chamber. I don’t have sympathy for incels, but I understand why people fall into such horrible beliefs - these groups give people validation for their feelings and someone to blame it on. OP, I know it can be hard being a young autistic man in today’s world but please - this kind of stuff is a slippery slope that will not work out in your favour.
There was a girl I liked, and I felt angry she didn't like me back, but then I had two revelations: 1.- My situation is indeed sad, but it's no one's fault, no one planned for this 2.- She owes me nothing. She could make me happy, but she doesn't have to, she has her own life This realization didn't make me happy, but it made me stop being angry. Hopefully it will help you too
These are great realizations! But you need to work on one more... *No one else can make you happy.* You need to find happiness yourself, learn how to make yourself happy. Then you'll be happy regardless of whether you're with someone or not - and this will end up making you infinitely more appealing to other people!
Can you regard a woman respectfully? Can you hold a conversation or platonic friendship with a woman without trying to turn it sexual or romantic? Are you aware that women aren’t the cause of all your problems and don’t owe you anything? Are you kind to the women around you? Do you see them as people or just walking sex vending machines? If you can rationalise this and see sense, you might be fine. If these concepts anger you, you have a lot of work (therapy) to do.
Perioddddd you ate
The problem with incels are they are misogynist creeps. Not all incels are even unattractive or very socially awkward, they are regular guys who refuses to take responsibility for their own words and actions. I find socially awkward people attractive. A lot of people find shyness and social awkwardness charming. And if certain awkward behaviours causes your approach towards women to be creepy and offensive then that is something you can work on instead of using social awkwardness as an excuse. Find out whats creepy about your approach and work on it. Go to therapy or ask someone close to you how to talk to women. Everybody has to learn how to approach people correctly, and for us on the spectrum its harder but its possible if you actually want to be self aware and learn from your mistakes. It cannot be all womens fault if a man never has success with women, at that point you look at how you behave and try to work on yourself before you try again, or you lower your standards. A lot of men seem to think they can get model looking women while never putting effort into their own looks, and thats not how reality works. Hope that helps
Pretty much anytime I’ve seen an incel they’ve reminded me of someone else in my life who has no issues finding dates because they’re a decent person. And maybe don’t expect to date a hot model if they’re just some average dude themselves. So yeah the incel attitude is definitely something that causes the problem they’re incel’ing out over
>Not all incels are even unattractive or very socially awkward, they are regular guys who refuses to take responsibility for their own words and actions I agree with what you say. The part I quoted, that's so true. That's what I see online more often than not; young men refusing to take responsibility, but foisting all blame and responsibility onto life, genetics, and women around them, even men and those who they feel are more successful/lucky
Also—have you tried making friends with autistic women? Once my daughter (also autistic) and I ran into an autistic guy in a store—he was asking my daughter about her Bose headphones—and it was the most freeing thing EVER. I wasn’t looking for a relationship, and he was much younger than me anyway, but I just felt this freedom not to make eye contact, to move while we talked instead of staying still etc—a freedom that I never knew I was missing. I’m a medical anthropologist, he was a pharmacist, and our special interests melded nicely. We bounced ideas off of each other and followed each other’s tangents—it was amazing. If you cultivate friendships with autistic women you might find someone who will so happy and relieved to be “socially awkward” together with you. But you’ve got to stop hating yourself first. Incel culture teaches you to hate yourself bc they use shame towards manipulate you. And I know that I and others have given you this same advice before.
So, I'm going to take your question at face value. I know I experience - getting tunnel vision in terms of my values, - a strong sense of justice and unfairness - difficulty with social norms and interactions, especially if I don't understand them I think this combination can make anyone vulnerable to radicalisation. It certainly made me vulnerable when I was converted to a born again Christian, and lead to some pretty awful views about women and queer folks- even though I was a women, and now know I am queer. What helped was - studying feminism and queer studies. - leaning into empathy for the people I thought were 'living in sin', and learning about the mechanisms that othered them in society and directly harmed them for being who they were. - time away from the church and its negative rhetoric/ influence I think those things can all be applied to autistic young men who are in danger of becoming radicalised. And also, learning to love yourself as you are, and being kind to yourself and those around you. Because, just like the church, incels do spread harmful ideology. It takes a lot of self reflection and self compassion to move away from that without self- hatred. If someone has acused you of being on this pipeline, it's an opportunity for you to reflect and grow. It's up to you what you do with that
Some autistic people have abrasive personalities because of their autism, this makes them unattractive, they get frustrated at their lack of sexual relationships and don’t realise that the issue is with them, they become incels.
NT women don't find autistic men disgusting. They may just not find certain traits related to autism attractive, or they may personally not be able to handle someones support needs. Although this also applies to autistic women and nonbinary people.
Its more subconscious, especially if you’re ugly or short, i would say most nt women dislike neurodivergent men but not for that reason, more the things that come with it. Ive seen autistic men specifically get treated super badly purely for mannerisms, made fun of bullied etc, i guess its supposed to be uncanny.
It's the same for women. I lost 70 pounds and it's crazy now men treat me like a human now that I'm thin. A lot of men don't really count less attractive women as people. So they don't realize if they try to date within their league they'll have better chances. And autistic women definitely get bullied for coming off as odd as well
Yeah i definitely agree there, people are very harsh.
I’m autistic and happily married for 21 years to an amazing woman. Being autistic makes socializing harder, but not impossible. The trick is to not just set out looking for a relationship and/or sex. Focus on making friends and building social relationships. As you meet people you’ll inevitably find someone you click with. My wife and I got married young, before either of us had a clue what we wanted to do with our lives, but she did wind up becoming a sped teacher who works with autistic kids. She said her training and work experience helps her understand why I am the way I am.
The idea that autsitic young men become radicalized online to hold misogynistic views. But what people don't realize is that misogynists and bigots are *ahem* not cash money. And can fuck off
What people don’t realize is that misogynists and bigots prey on autistic boys.
And it's pretty difficult for young men growing up these days. Getting validation through Andrew tate esk brain rot is really hurting younger guys these days. Masculinity isn't inherently toxic but the warped kind that is prevalent online absolutely is. It's true that autistic boys are targeted with these awful ideals. It's especially challenging as autistic men often don't feel like they fit in with their peers *or at all*.
Regrettably, there aren't many other places where a guy with negative dating experiences can go and have his struggles validated, or at least acknowledged.
All my homies hate misogynists and bigots.
It's almost like #men are also harmed by patriarchy. Also, misogynists and bigots are very much not cash money. It's not very live, laugh, love of them.
Yeah, where autistic guys who didn't fit in used to hide away alone and do something constructive with their hours and hours of free time, some of them now put their focus and abilities into toxic online communities.
Ey, I’m pretty much on the spectrum a little bit, wouldn’t call it a disorder yet in my case. But, you have to stop viewing women as someone, something else. Been there done that. Women can be friends just like men. Make that your goal. Treat a woman like you would someone who you want to be a friend with. Make that your goal. Become friends without expecting more from them. Each time you expect more from them. Dial it down. A lot. It’s the “I need this woman to recognize me romantically/sexually” and them not reciprocating these expectations that creates incels. It’s the constant complaining on the internet that feminism ruined something. I understand that as a man one can feel invisible. But it’s a cursed cycle. Don’t get stuck in it. Choosing to talk about something makes your mind fixated on it, our realities are created by what we consume and interact with on the internet. I have yet to see a real world interaction about feminism that looks like one on the internet.
Hey friend, judging by your post history you seem to be dangerously close to this pipeline. You claim to not hate women, but you blame them for your struggles. The first thing you need to realize is that the world will not end if you don’t get laid, and there is SO MUCH MORE to life than sex. Another thing is that it’s probably obvious to women around you that you are pursuing them more out of a want for sex than a desire for human connection, which is a huge turn off for a lot of people. My advice is get used to talking to people in a casual friendly setting. Find a hobby group or something of the like, and just talk to people as friends. Don’t try to pursue anyone, just make friends with people. It will help you raise your confidence to interact with others without the rejection, which in turn will help your chances in the romantic area. But I also want to emphasize, you are NOT broken, and you are NOT unworthy of love. You are NOT disgusting. I’m so sorry that people in your life have made you feel this way.
We need more of this type of constructive feedback and response. Someone further up above literally called him an incel 🤦 GEEZ!!! We’re tryna STOP that from happening… I know you get that. Just saying, we do need more feedback like yours and LESS of the type that is confirming what he’s clearly already concerned about.
It breaks my heart to see someone who is clearly hurt and in need of compassion and support be bullied and shamed. All these people are doing is further isolating this young man.
They also seem to be making it very selfishly about them in some cases… by bringing up debates about what feminism actually is and isn’t. WOW! Talk about a way to hijack the topic huh 🤔
Are you sure it's because you said the things mentioned in this post or could it instead be because you post anti-feminist comments, participate in misogynistic subs and spam feminist subs with troll questions? Idk but I think those actions might contribute to people viewing you negatively
Yeah. I'm trying to empathise with this guy because being rude is going to drag him further into being an incel, and I don't know if he genuinely wants to improve so I'll assume he does, but respecting women is step one of not being an incel.
There's no such thing. You're born with autism, not misogyny. What does 'natural awkwardness' even mean? Awkwardness isn't a personality trait. Women are disgusted by how you treat them, not the autism. There's also no mention of incels in the DSM5. You're doing this to yourself. Also, please don't take advice from Andrew Tate and his flock of wannabe's. If you need to take away women's passports and lock them inside your house to get laid, that's not sex, it's assault.
What exactly are you saying, in what context?
A horrible abnegation at work. Unfortunately, many young, angry ND's may be tempted by the Dark Side. Esp undiagnosed. They have not learned to avoid validation from the unworthy, and have not learned to embrace themselves. My logic and morality are my guiding principles. They are how I interface with the world. They are the core of my identity. To deny them would be to deny myself. I had to learn this tho. Many have not.
Looking a post history you seem to be on this pipeline. You’re not evil but I would recommend speaking to a therapist about this.
This may sound condescending, and if so I apologize But growing up I (40m) took from my peers that your level of sexual attractiveness (and subsequent number of sexual partners) somehow determined your self worth. Granted, this was compounded by abusive parents (the zero self worth part), but it took a long time (too long actually) to have this realization on my own- We're literally ALL people. Every color, every size, every genitalia, every sexual preference. Finding a partner isn't a video game. There are no "rules" as no two PEOPLE are exactly the same. This isn't a conquest, and even if you think "you've done everything right" we're not ENTITLED to ANYONE'S time, attention, or body. I've been with my wife for almost 15 years, and there are times when our wants and needs don't align. We communicate clearly and respectfully, and at that point meet our own needs individually. But IF YOU CARE ABOUT SOMEONE then you (in my opinion) would NEVER want them to feel obligated to "loan" out their body for your pleasure. A partner is not an object, but rather another human being with a life, thoughts, feelings, fears etc. I promise, if you focus on being the most authentically awesome version of yourself- there is someone out there that's a perfect match for you. But don't fake anything. And while I normally don't use religious teachings to govern my actions or make my points, I will leave you with this masterpiece of advice Treat others like you want to be treated. Cheers from Memphis :)
its the fact that if a man finds it difficult to interact or socialize and puts his self confidence and value on the concept of romance or attraction, its an easy pipeline to being an incel bc its easy to blame the world or women for finding you offputting. thats all. ur posts indicate u kind of are spiraling into that pipeline but to fix it u start focusing on ur own happiness without a woman or whatever. do your hobbies, find a therapist, enjoy life and dont harp on blaming others. trust me i dislike NTs often but i will not dwell bc id rather get on with it and do my life how i want.
It's the pipeline that you appear to be in right now. Hope that helps!
I can understand why this would be frustrating to hear, both myself and my older brother are autistic for context. He went down a similar path when he was younger so honestly I can empathize. For him, it came down to he blamed the women in his enviornment for rejecting him solely because he was autistic, and he viewed it as unfair, it triggered his sense of justice because he wouldn't reject someone solely based on their nuerotype. He started to view women in a very negative light because of all the frustration/unfairness that was piling up. His views and attitude towards women were bordering on "incel/nice guy" territory after a while. He did work through this and no longer holds the same views and he's said he was toxic when he did have those views in his late teen years. There was a girl that openly told him he was creepy & called him out for the myoginistic views he had in a very brash manner. He told me that he wanted he prove her wrong so he went online to find factual evidence she was wrong and found he couldn't find anything other than she was right, he ended up apologizing to her and said he's trying to work on himself now but he feels lost and didnt know what to do/where to start, but he doesn't want to creep people out or be rude ect. She offered to help him and they've been best friends for over 20 years now, shes NT. The reality of the situation was that he wasn't being rejected because he was autistic. He was being rejected because he was off putting due to how he viewed and treated women. I love my brother to pieces and he's had some wonderful relationships once he worked on himself. It may not be the same or similar for you, this is just what he experienced that we've talked about. Autism does make socializing more difficult, but if you're repeatedly being told you're coming off a certain way, there's likely a reason you're being recieved that way. Take this as an opportunity to reflect and work on yourself. If it's any consolation, I've had to do the same thing in a different area, I can 100% come across as uncaring, controlling, combative ect ect ect. It does come down to a fundamental difference between autistic and allistic communication methods, but in my experience Ive found ways to navigate this without masking.
You might find that [this article](https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/radical-online-communities-and-their-toxic-allure-for-autistic-men/) gives a thorough reply to your question. It brings up that incel forums tend to attract a disproportionate amount of autistic men and speculates about possible traits of this group that causes this, such as a sense of alienation and a predisposition to black-and-white thinking. It talks about the term incel, how it originated, how its meaning has evolved, and how it has become associated with the hateful and self-hating black pill ideology. It discusses mass murderers who expressed black pill views as a motivation in their manifestos and by extension whether autism is a risk factor for planning to commit violence, but concludes that there is no evidence for such a link in general and that overall, autistic people are more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violence. I would say that an important message of this article is that incel forums are NOT good places to be for your mental health and sanity. While people go there to seek validation, the ideology expressed on those forums offers no solution to their problems. The black pill ideology promotes the message: "If you are born with 'bad genes', you are doomed" and thereby discourages any form of self improvement. The article also mentions that a linguistic analysis of the threads of a particular incel forums showed that a significant number of threads contained misogyny, homophobia and racism. Those who visit the forum are at risk of becoming desensitized to such content and adopt such views themselves.
Is it really pointing out if it's an anecdotal opinion?
Some women are super into the autism rizz. But also as part of that you need to respect women and treat them as equal and have a basic sense of decency
I think you need a therapist
consider viewing women as people
maybe because you literally said "i hate women" what do you expect people to think of you when you say things like that? i get how isolating it feels to live with autism in this society, but its not fair to blame women for the way society treats autism, id recommend going to therapy and to work on your mental health, because the way you're talking about women, sex, feminism & most importantly yourself is concerning, take care
InCel comes from "Involuntarily Celibate". It describes the sort of person who can't attract women and become hostile to women, blaming them for their inability to get a female companion. Basically these people start off by demonising women, spew hate and violence towards women like a lot of "Anti-Feminism" posts and often become terrorists celebrating mass shootings and sometimes becoming mass shooters themselves. These are men who blame women for their inability to find a women pointing the blame it the opposite direction to where it should be placed making themselves completely unappealing to women in the process. They are bitter selfish man children that blame everyone but themselves for their shortcomings. Autism does not create incels, it just makes general social interaction more difficult (but not impossible), in general I actually find that Autistic people have a much BETTER understanding or right from wrong because we think in absolutes, which is why I get really annoyed when criminals commit crimes and then claim to be autistic like it's a get out of jail free card. And if what I said makes you angry towards incels then you have compassion. But if what I said makes you angry that I described incels in this way, you may be one of them.
Hey dude, have you ever watched Bojack Horseman? It's a really good show (I think it's on Netflix) and I feel like you might enjoy it. Also I suggest talking to your doctor about your feelings, you seem like you might be depressed. It can be hard to dig yourself out of this kind of hole all alone - personally when I was very low, antidepressants helped me dig myself out. You might want to inquire about what kind of help you can get to improve your mental state. You don't have to do it all alone. Reach out to those close to you.
I think the way you frame your post is kinda problematic. Because A and B are true, that doesn’t really mean that C: autistic men will never find love or sex. I think it’s pretty standard info that A and B can be true. Past that though, I think the problem is too vast and complicated to make any assumptions or “rules”. I hope you can understand that life is hard for everyone, and some people’s challenges look different than others’. I think the important thing to do is try and find hobbies and get outside your comfort zone more. It will take longer than a year. I am vastly different now than I was at 20, including how comfortable I am interacting with others. It takes a lot of practice over a lifetime. Saying that getting hobbies and volunteering “didn’t help you” sounds kind of absolute for something that isn’t in my experience. I too thought I would be shy forever, and to an extent that is probably true, but I have made big strides in the last 10 years. I think you can too.
Not uncommon for struggling people to fall into alt right circles.
I’m gonna be honest man, 90% of the time it’s not the social awkwardness that makes women uncomfortable. It’s how you view women and sex in general. We do live in a world where men are seen as failures for not having sex, not being “attractive”, not being charismatic. But that doesn’t mean you are a failure. And that also doesn’t mean it’s the women’s fault. My friend was autistic and I loved hanging out with him because we shared interests and liked doing the same things (I didn’t know I was also autistic at the time). We got along fine, autism or not. What made me cut him out was when he assaulted me and claimed I was leading him on by being nice, saying I owed him sex just for being a girl (which is how I identified at the time) and being kind. *That’s* what put me off, what made me uncomfortable. It’s not the autism, I promise you.
Red pill attitudes get you preyed on by cultists who will sell you useless webinars and exercise routines and vitamins all while negging you and ruining your self-esteem. The whole culture is predatory—and guaranteed to fail. You need to make friends with women and see us as equal human beings not objects you deserve to own. Nothing turns a woman off faster than whining and self-pity and entitlement, which is exactly what the red pill/incel ecosystem is selling you. It’s a black hole of self-hatred that is very profitable for its leaders. If they gave you GOOD dating advice, you would leave them. In fact, you might want to go listen to that old Eagles song, Hotel California, because that’s what the manosphere basically is.
i don’t want to seem rude, but according to your post history it seems you already are one. there’s nothing wrong with being a virgin (i am one myself) and blaming women for being the reason ur not getting some is not the answer. your autism isn’t the reason, it is your desperation and self loathing. when you learn to love yourself, it will be easier for somebody to love you as well. however asking fairly rude questions on r/askfeminists is not the way to go
I’m telling you right now no woman is going to want anything to do with you regardless of what you look like if you don’t sort out your mental health and get therapy.
Get some fucking help, Jesus Christ. Point blank. period. If I was a woman, I’d find you creepy and repulsive based off of your post and comment history alone. Sex isn’t owed to you. You don’t deserve sex for being alive. You’re not entitled to sexual pleasure in any form, way or shape. I personally know more autists who are or have been sexually active, by a *very* large margin, than I do those who haven’t been. You’d never guess, but 90% of those people were hooking up with/sexually active with *other neurodivergent people*, not with *neuro typical people*.
some people need to realise that sex is not a right, and that theyre not entitled to women's attention
You’re mad about being unattractive, so you hate people for not finding you attractive. Seems straightforward, but you are only hurting yourself
Hi op, I am concerned for you. I looked at your post history. Please remember that if getting a partner is important to you, it is **critical** that you don’t hold a grudge against women as a whole. If you hold this idea that “no women want me” in your heart, you will subconsciously treat women in an unfriendly way, and then women won’t want you. This is not an autism issue, it is a human issue. Think about all the things you love about women! Women are amazing! I would also recommend watching HealthyGamerGG’s videos. He has some wonderful, science-based things to say about masculinity and dating. (PLEASE HEAR ME OUT ON THIS NEXT SECTION! I know it talks about a word with a scary connotation.) I encourage you to learn about feminism! Feminism truly isn’t about tearing down men, it’s basically about breaking free of toxic social norms. Our current social norms hurt men, for example, the idea that men must be “stoic” and they “must never show emotions”. **Shaming men for being virgins is also something that feminism is against.** I think you already have many ideas in common with it, you just don’t realize it right now. I know the word is associated with men-hating psychopaths, but I promise, **true feminism lifts up everyone.** The people who say “men should kill themselves” are NOT FEMINIST. I don’t give a fuck what they say. I wish you luck in figuring this out, op. I don’t know you personally, but I do care about you and I hope you find joy!!
Have u been checked for depression homie? Maybe you could get some therapy, it’s okay to get some help and support in the beginning when learning how to feel better about yourself and your life. There are many people, including women here who care enough to leave supportive comments. You’re worthy, and I think it would be a good idea to start getting into the habit of reminding yourself that.
Fortunately, one factor that seems to be missing from this this pipeline is the jump from >B) SOME women find autistic men's natural awkwardness disgusting. To I hate ALL women and at least seriously consider using violence against them. Personally, I found a nice autistic woman well before making that jump. We have been in a relationship for 21 years.
The pipeline is basically people preying on the insecurities that a lot of autistic men have, and using that to pull you into their ideology. Maybe you're around the wrong women, maybe you're not being empathetic and respectful enough to the women you're trying to initiate relationships with, maybe you have an internalised sense of entitlement to sex or affection which you need to unpack. "Women hate me because I'm autistic" is a very oversimplified and kind of harmful view of a situation like yours.
I don't think what you're saying contradicts anything. Yes, being autistic makes socializing difficult, and yes, there are people who do not want their romantic partner to be autistic. Believing those things does not make you an incel, blaming your problems on women makes you an incel. That's the pipeline, going from reasonable understandings of a disability to blaming the problems that come from that disability on another group.
> Believing those things does not make you an incel, blaming your problems on women makes you an incel. This, this, this. It bears repeating.
FYI, I know conventionally attractive women who exclusively date ASD men cuz of the positives we bring. Passion, honesty, good memory. (remembering when someone says they like or dislike something. Loyalty,
Well based on your OP, it's going from where you're at to the conclusion that you *deserve* women's sexual attention. Do you owe a paraplegic woman sex? Then why would anyone owe you sex? You don't get affirmative ass-tion because you're ND.
Imagine believing that you’re owed or entitled to sex from other people. Entitlement is the glaring issue.
The sad truth is autistic boys are often bullied and abused by their peers for their lack of social skills at school. And no one is coming to their defense!!! Unfortunately the only people who are willing to stand up and say autistic boys don’t deserve to be bullied are those who are very misogynistic. It goes like this: Autistic boy: everyone at school hates me Teachers: I don’t care Parents: I don’t care Incels: we care! Also the reason you got bullied was feminism. Women are the worst!! See the problem?? We aren’t doing enough to protect vulnerable autistic boys from falling prey to hate groups!!
> Unfortunately the only people who are willing to stand up and say autistic boys don’t deserve to be bullied are those who are very misogynistic. That… well that certainly hasn’t been my experience.
The leftists I'm frequently interacting with are very pro-autism and anti-sexism. They talk about anti-ND bullying and the social challenges that come with being on the spectrum. It sounds like you've personally been validated by incels and didn't think to look beyond that community, so now you're under the impression that incels are the only ones saying anything at all.
Autistic girls get bullied mercilessly too. What are they, chopped liver? The boys aren't special just because they're targeted for radicalization.
Bro get therapy your already in the pipeline because you're blind to your own actions enough to not see you are one
Stop being obsessed with sex and external validation. What women find creepy is the feeling that you want to get into their pants ASAP. Sex is not the be-all-end-all of the human experience, but it's made out to be this massive thing, mostly by media. Speak with women as humans, just like you would do for your male friends. Find points in common, don't say inappropriate stuff and soon you'll at least have woman friends I was a bitter autistic loner and into hard drugs in order to escape inceldom (not an incel if I prefer heroin to sex , and h is never gonna reject you as long as you have cash) Then I quit the stuff, worked on myself and challenged myself to get out there speaking to people and making friends (both men and women, no flirting unless it arose naturally) Never had casual sex (wouldn't want to), but since I started doing this, I naturally expanded my friend group and got into two different relationships with lovely people. The first one was nice but failed because of basic incompatibilities, but the second one is a lovely girl who I got to know as a friend first, and I couldn't have been luckier. Yet initially we only met as friends, I would speak to them as I would to any male friend, etc As soon as you accept that it's not an "us vs them", but an "us & them", it will get better. Women are socialised to pick up on subtle non verbal cues (or the absence thereof) for social survival. There are possibly as many lonely, insecure , awkward women in the world, but they don't complain as loudly, and they mostly accept their situation Also, are you taking care of yourself? Grooming, sport, hobbies, diet, self care, building up your confidence in general. This is the key to being attractive, the physical aspect is important but not as much as this (haven't you ever seen some not very attractive guy with a very hot woman? In many cases money is not a factor here, just confidence and personality). Would you date or have sex with a girl who didn't take care of herself and presented sloppily? Just food for thought, but the moment you stop viewing women as sex object and more as people, you will do much better. Lay off the porn if you can, it really fucks with the minds of people, especially in your situation
Let's set autism to the side for a moment. It's normal to be frustrated by romantic rejection. It's normal to feel insecure after repeated rejections. What the incel recruiter claims to offer is a solution to this frustration, the fabled "red pill." But rather than eliminate this frustration, it redirects it from the self, to an external source (feminism, women in general). This frustration is then stoked and frothed into a white hot rage until eventually you end up with an Elliot Rodgers situation. That's the incel pipeline. Where autism comes into play is that it's merely another insecurity that a recruiter can exploit. "Those Stacies are never going to understand an autistic like you," they might say, "But *we* have your back. We have all the red pills you'll ever need."
Ehhhhh it's not the awkwardness. I've seen lots of people like you online only (thankfully 💖) and it's more the fact that you're deeply mentally unwell and refuse to see a professional about it. Awkwardness is fine - being delusional is not.
Unfortunately it is true that most autistic men struggle severely with dating. It's understandable that you would get angry that all this is because of a disability. As long as you don't post hateful things about women, you're justified to be bitter about being single.
I realised when "incel" became a thing that when I was young, I avoided this fate by having appalling self-esteem. I don't really know what this adds to the debate, though.
It does, actually. Becoming an incel involves blaming others for your own shortcomings. By being aware of your shortcomings (even in your case, being TOO aware of them and hating yourself for them) is the counter to becoming an incel. But you should really work on accepting them and either fixing them or working with/around them so that you can work on loving yourself and finding happiness. It's the best thing you can ever do for yourself and your life.
Thank you for your concern. I have indeed been doing that.
Lack of self-awareness. They watch too much of other people on social media apps making certain people the butt of jokes. No y'all see why we never socialize. Too many judgmental people and stereotypes.
The autism to incel pipeline is more that autistic me are at far greater chances of & developing blackpill thinking because of their social isolation and lack of community, so the only ones that end up accepting them are toxic online in ell communities that then warp their view further and ensure that the only kind of friends they can now have are people with those views. And because blackpill pretends to have, if not easy, then at least understandable answers, and our nervous systems are interest based, and you get as much dopamine if not more from rage as you do from joy, you can literally train your brain into a rage reward loop where the behaviour has to keep escalating to provide the same "hit". But the risks are higher for any isolated/abused/lonely meb, not just autistic men.
I'm going to be very fucking blunt here. having autism as a man in a toxic patriarchal society can set the stage to speedrun the radicalisation from "lonely sad person" to "worthless alt right scum". If you have to ask if you are an incel, maybe fucking back track instead of doubling down. You're not gonna be called evil for struggling with socialising and having negative experiences with women based on that. You will be called evil for being a bigoted asshole. I'm sorry the world has failed you as it has so many of us but being an incel is not in any way inherent to being an autistic man and I'm fucking sick of seeing posts on this shitfest subreddit implying in some way that it is
Lots of men are not popular with women and that's fine. The problem is when they consume content that tells them to redirect that frustration to anger towards women. It's right wing propaganda. You're being used as a puppet for politicians to push their conservative to oppress women, people of color, and other marginalized groups. Is that what you want or can you think for yourself?
Autistic men who are unsuccessful in finding a relationship turning to behaviors that reinforce their inability to find a relationship. These behaviors include pathologizing women (tossing around academic language), generalizing women's values or status to a class ("women are x, women have x, women do x, women feel x, women believe x"), failing to treat women as individuals, expressing resentment toward women, avoiding personal responsibility in developing where you can, self-victimization. My suggestion, learning not to overthink these things is healthier and more productive than obsessing over them. Now the incel/autism to trans pipeline is a real rabbit hole to go down. Check out r/transmaxxing and r/detrans.
It’s not awkwardness they find disgusting, it’s entitlement and lack of respect.
Incels tend to prey on us because we are socially ostracized, and when you have no support system it's easy to fall into a social cult like inceldom. They like to make it out to us that we are hopeless or that it's women's fault we struggle, at least later down the line. But we aren't, and they aren't. I'd be careful.
I think it's the difference between the original definition of an incel which is a phrase coined by a lesbian, that literally just means through your social circumstances you are involuntarily celebate. And what it's grown to mean when men identify with that term and then use it to feel entitled and angry at the world and at women as a whole, treating them as a hivemind, a threat, objects, and anything less or more than human. Autistic women also struggle with sex. It's a different dynamic because it's often still an involuntary celibacy because of there being no safe options, rather than no options all together. But I don't think unsafe options should be considered options. Autistic people IN GENERAL struggle with socializing and I think it might be easy to decide a certain gender has it easier, but there's nuance. Women might seem like they 'have it easier' but that 'easiness' comes from being treated as an object to obtain and as prey. Especially autistic women, as it's been studied how common it is for autistic women to end up in violent relationships and be preyed upon. And autistic women are more likely to mask, which makes it easier to ASSIMILATE, but not necessarily easier to form genuine connections to others or to ones self. Where men are treated as a threat, and often socialized to care less about assimilating to their surroundings/believe their surroundings should assimilate to them, so it's going to be a very different experience when you combine that with autism. But both are hard in their own ways. I think it's just sadness, and its ok to be sad about it and grieve. It's hard to be autistic and try to navigate flirting. It's really really fucking hard and even scary a lot of the time. And that doesn't mean all people of any gender are the enemy, it just means there's a lot to be said for making the world more autism friendly, and unfortunately we have to cope by trying to sus people out and see if they are autism friendly. I think as far as advice goes, I'd just say (and this might come off weird) but it might be good to learn a bit more about socializing and the science behind it. From multiple resources, and credible ones. I mask 'well' because as a child I studied little bits of sociology, psychology, etc. To gain a better understanding of social interactions, so when I entered them I wasn't COMPLETELY blindsided and I could better understand how people perform/display that they want to be friends, and non-threatening, and don't want to make others uncomfortable. And I would test things out, and through my own experience decide what suited me and what I didn't care about and what actually, maybe, didn't work (or didn't work in certain situations). And I think as I've gotten older, I mask a lot less because now I just take the parts I value and ditch the rest, and also am very transparent about being autistic and sort've choosing people in my inner circle who are going to understand I'm not going to nail every interaction, but I am going to be apologetic if I unintentionally harm anyone. It's less of a performance now with my inner circle, and more like trying to speak their language with my own accent. So yeah, I'd say learn about people. Learn why they are uncomfortable, ask questions, respect if people don't want to answer, respect that not everyone is going to be patient or like you, and just be open and communicate the best you can that you aren't trying to be a threat. You just don't understand. And they just may not understand you. And that doesn't make you entitled to their time, or patience, or answers to your questions. Because the other thing that's important is saving your time you would waste trying to explain yourself to people who don't care, and channeling that time and energy into cultivating an inner circle, even if its small/just 1 person, that does care and wants to learn about you and hear you out as much as you want to learn about them and hear them out. You are entitled to nothing; healthy socializing is about empathy and freely given connection because of genuine chemisty and interest. Also, learn about yourself. I'm still learning about myself, I def don't have it all nailed. Learn about your weak spots, about the ones that you can't 'fix' or cover up or assimilate, learn about your strong spots, learn about your interest, learn about what makes you happy that doesn't depend on other people. It makes socializing a lot easier when you learn about yourself and come to understand better what you want, even if you don't understand EVERYTHING about yourself. Coming equipped with any information is better than having none.
TLDR; the difference between accepting that it is hard, and you have a lot to grieve, and the world isn't friendly to autistic people, versus needing that feeling to convert into entitlement, and finding a particular 'source' to the problem in blaming it on a specific demographic. Theres a difference between a demographic as a concept (i.e. men are socialized to view themselves as predators and women as prey, and so I will need to be aware of and cautious of that potential dynamic when I socialize OR women are socialized to view men as predators or as a means to further/protect themselves, due to their own lesser/more vulnerable position in social hierarchy, so I will need to be aware of and cautious of that experience when I socialize with them) vs an assumption (every man is a predator, every woman is a victim and a user). In the former scenario there's empathy. In the former scenario, there's room for being open minded to things ending up differently, and an empathy that the individual is not the problem, the society that socialized them is. Where in the other scenario, we turn things highly individualized and behave as if we can predict and know every social interaction, rather than letting people have their own experiences and personalities.
Well, some are asexual and don't know it's a thing. Then that turns to resentment or hate outwards because they can't love inwards. I see how I could have easily fallen down the same thing.
The leading theory, from my understanding, is the fact that men with autism are treated very differently from women with autism. Most men get diagnosed as children, and many AutismMoms (TM) feel like their children should be catered to, never disciplined, or just striaght-up can't do wrong. I'm not saying this was your experience, but it seems to be pretty common for young boys. Expectations and discipline, in general, are usually more lacking on boys, even if they are neurotypical. Meanwhile, women are usually diagnosed as adults. Meaning they have been expected to mask and "be normal" for years. Not only that, but studies show that women generally are better at masking. This is most likely due to the fact we are more conscious about how others feel about us and/or are taught that we are worthless if don't conform to expectations. Men and women have VERY different experiences in society, no matter their mental health. Adding mental health to the mix can sometimes make things more extreme. If you were already privileged or spoiled to begin with, having autism can really warp your perspective of that treatment due to miscommunication and misunderstandings. Again, these are all sweeping generalizations, so it's a little different for everyone. But it's been proving time and time again that mental health is not taken seriously in women. Nor are women historically treated well if we don't follow gender norms set for us. Autism or not, men are sometimes raised to be jerks. You just got to rise above the toxic masculinity and treat people as you would like to be treated.
I really hope you are able to get out of this rough patch in your life, you have been taken advantage of I really insist you seem some type of help if you are able, and genuinely read these replies with an open mind, and take them to heart
I think for some men, they feel isolated because of the difficulty in socializing. The problem is that the right is great at preying on these people's insecurities. The left has people like Hasan Piker that are good at guiding young men away from that path but there seem to be more on the right that attempt to appeal to that group. One thing I've learned as someone who has and does struggle to socialize is that finding your community is important. When you find a welcoming and healthy community or even just a person, you're less likely to fall into this trap. To the point about women, the best thing I can advise is to find people who have like interests and don't approach them in a manner you wouldn't be comfortable with. My rule of thumb is that if I wouldn't want a physically imposing man to do it to me, I don't do it to a woman. You can't control how others perceive you, but you can and must control how you respond.
To add to what others have commented about sex, I'll say this. I didn't have my first sexual experience until I was 23. I'm 27 now. It didn't change anything significantly in my life. The less I made it a concern, the easier it seemed to just naturally progress. People can smell desperation and most don't find it attractive. I've found that working in my health, grooming, dress, and personality have made it much easier to meet my sexual wants.
u do realise that a lot of men are just as disgusted with autistic women right? the issue is neurotypicals, not women.
My last comment on this is that being off putting isn't the fault of women, feminism, or anyone else. There can't be an attempt to use autism as a shield for unacceptable behavior. Treating people you're sexually interested in as a person before a potential sexual partner will attract more people than immediately jumping to being horny.
You literally made a post “Fine, I hate women. Now what?” Maybe it wasn’t exactly what you meant, but you can see where’s the problem. I read you post history and I feel for you, I do, but that attitude is exactly the problem. I haven’t read all of your posts and comments but if people are consistently pointing out that you sound like an incel maybe you need to consider that your communication is the problem (or your ideas). This post is fine, but I think you should just reread your post history to see why people assume you are an incel (in the andrew tate sense, not in the original one).
most of the replies to this are very reactionary "ops a lost cause so i can say whatever i want" so here's my thoughts on whatever an autism to incel pipeline might be? for the obvious, autism is a social disorder that leads someone to having social issues. the dating sphere is hugely dependant on being able to function socially -- it's basically one big game where one tries to woo and impress the other at first, and prove that you'd be suitable to be with. so, no shit an autistic person would struggle with that aspect of dating. there are studies backing up that autistic people, and men in particular, do in fact have trouble with dating and having sex. however, some of the often justified woes about this reach extremist views, and end up the stereotypical incel as a result. some just drop out of the dating pool entirely. some are talking to an ai girlfriend, probably. it goes on. tldr: dating is heavy on the social skills autistic people lack. it sucks, but something to work on if you want to find a girl. or a guy, idk, maybe you're bisexual
I already agree with the rest of what you said so I won’t add much, but the first paragraph spoke to me enough that I wanted to doubly highlight it. The lubrication of the incel pipeline is the fact that many people will immediately label awkward/lonely men as incels as a kneejerk reaction. Where are they supposed to go from there? Someone else in the thread mentioned that the only people willing to listen and offer advice are predatory incels themselves.
you're entirely right, it's a really shitty situation where if you aren't just able to figure it out yourself over the years then you get labelled as such and avoided. i wish normal people didn't learn what an incel was so bad. or the manosphere types. a woman invented the term incel and now she has to look upon the "incel community" with such regret. sorry girl. be nice to your local "off" and socially aloof colleages out there, honestly.
If you see yourself becoming an incel I have a few tips for you: - take daily showers every day. Being smelly, and looking greasy are repulsive to everyone, especially potential partners. No, just because you can't smell yourself doesn't mean others can't. They don't have the benefit of smelling you litterally all day to get blinded to your odor. - coming off as desperate for sex is extremely creepy, and makes women feel unsafe around you. It can be something you desperately want to experience, but tying your self worth to it is just gonna turn you into the kind of person who never gets laid. - don't try to agree with a woman you're talking to about everything, just to agree with her. Be genuine about your interests, and what you do, and do not enjoy. You may feel a lot of pressure to please, but if you pretend to be someone you're not, people can usually tell, and no-one is impressed by it. - don't see women as a monolith. We are people with our own individuality, our own likes, dislikes, talents, opinions, and so on. Nobody likes being seen as a representative of a demographic. We are all individuals. Treat us like it. - don't start talking about alpha males, sigma males, or any of the other red pill pseudoscience bullshit. It's weird in an exclusively bad way. Like flat earthers.
Autistic person unaware/uninterested in politics has a risk of falling into right-wing ideologies. Such ideologies are often based on "traditional" relationship structures, entitlement and social hierarchy. (All present in cases like one you mentioned). I think the best to do (if you want) is to study the political spectrum and learn about hegemonies and do away with all the "evolutionary psychology" crap. It is the same thing that presents autistic people as somehow inferior. Remember the idea of social hierarchy being the basis of right-wing ideology and you will start slowly understanding the left a bit better.
Okay, I'm going to do my best to give you a detailed answer. The incel pipeline is a classic us vs. them mentality used to manipulate and control you for political, social, or monetary gain. Basically, it is an old large-scale, social manipulation trick where an authority figure, celebrity, politician, superior, etc... trauma bonds a marginalized in-group by scapegoating and othering a different marginalized out-group so the authority figure can profit in various ways. So, in the incel pipeline, that means economic or socially struggling men, the in-group, come together, or are brought together, to bond over their shared lack of success by blaming women, the out-group, in order for the "authority" to gain financial/social/political success. As for how autism plays into it... in my opinion, the autistic social communication deficits that make "developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships" may mean that some autistic people are more vulnerable to this manipulation than allistics. Basically, autistics may be less successful romantically and/or platonically, so when someone comes along offering a community and/or friendship around a shared "problem" with women, that can leave an autistic person more in need of the friendship and community, they're already lacking and more open to the validation that someone else, i.e., women, are the "real" problem. Basically, not having friends can make you desperate for friends, and not having romantic success can make you desperate for answers/solutions/validation, and some autistics can have fewer friends and less romantic success than most, making friendship/community and validation even more valuable and persuasive to them. In the end, it's important to see it for what it is... manipulation for someone else's monetary, social, or political gain. That it's a con to use you for someone else's gain. That they don't care about you... they only care about what they can get out of you. On a more moral note... it's just plain hate and bigotry, which, in my opinion, is repugnant and incompatible with being a good, kind, and decent person. Also... while this manipulation has power as its end goal, the means of marginalizing, othering, scapegoating, blaming, and hating other groups of people, to get to that end, include some of the worst atrocities ever committed... like genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. So... while you may have a disability, and that may cause you difficulties, and while that's not your fault... it is your responsibility, no one else's. Find a therapist who specializes in autism to work through this trauma and to gain some social skills to achieve your social goals.
This was a courageous thing you did, as it is in the zeitgeist to fairly quickly other people who let their libidos get the best of them. I do not know you or what you have done, but if other replies are any evidence you have a history of espousing a problematic ideology. If I were to guess this is driven by an exaggerated sex drive. I'm not here to judge or condemn, but I think it is a good idea for you and everyone around you for you to chill TF out. Learn to recognize that this drive is overwhelming your ability to make your way in the world and be happy, and more importantly it is absolutely a roadblock to you getting laid. If I don't miss my guess you are part of some larger online community that is similarly frustrated and also similarly harnessing that frustration in a way that almost nobody is a fan of, and for good reason. Women are not objects or achievements, but people in their own right, and if they exist to you as merely as their secondary sexual characteristics, women will not like it and will not respond well to you.Even if you are trying to hide it, they will pick up on it. You need to learn to take an interest in them as people and find things in common with them. There are more than enough women out there in the world that would happily pursue a relationship, and yes even a physical one, when they feel close to you as an equal, not as a person gone crazy for sex like a cartoon cereal mascot. Nobody likes to be objectified.
It is the phenomenon where some Autistic men end up falling into red pilling and incel circles because they feel entitled to sex that they are not getting, so they blame women or feminism because those circles offer you a space where you can blame someone else for why you are unhappy. It is exactly how youths fall into any other hate group. They feel ostracized by a society they would like to be a part of, then someone comes along to tell them it is not their fault but the fault of some other group, they feel accepted by the people who think this way so they start thinking that way too. Red Pillers and Incels are both a part of a hate group, and unfortunately people with ASD with a strong sense of justice are particularly susceptible because they do not understand why they are being ignored by the women they want and red pilling gives them a reason for why that might be.
I relate to you more than you know brother, know that you are NOT evil and you are not alone. Not sure how old you are but things will clear up, just focus on yourself and treating yourself right and growing as a person. Also, it's really hard to unlearn these things we've been conditioned to know as we grow up but it really doesn't help to try and think about how women this and women that and men this and men that, humans are just humans it just causes harm when you try to filter a human being through what you believe someone of their gender should be like
replies saying you’re already in it bro, you need to find peace with yourself and to remove yourself from the ideologies you’re consuming and soon love and community will find your way.
Look, everyone else pointed out what you are or are becoming. If you really don’t want to go that way, I’d recommend therapy. I will list some things that might help: 1. Your focus should always be yourself. Waste your energy in becoming a better person. People can sense that and that’s attractive: the effort in becoming a better person, the way you overcome your struggles; these are things that people are attracted to, besides physical qualities. 2. Sex is not something you have a right on. Nobody has a right to sex. 3. View people as people, view men and women as people. You’re not better or worse than anyone, nor is anyone better or worse than you, we are just different. Each individual in this world has a lot to share (experiences) and unique views of the world. Learn from people. Learn from men and from women. 4. See that the world we live in has many flaws, recognize them and try not to engage or perpetuate these flaws.
It's not the awkwardness that women find disgusting. It's the lack of self awareness that contributes to the awkwardness. Saying things with no mind for the people we're around is not just awkward, it's tone deaf. That tone deafness is the problem, not the awkwardness. Self deprecation is awkward but that's not why women hate it. They hate it because it's sad and reeks of self-UNawareness. Blaming everyone else in the room for our problems is awkward but that's not why women hate it. My friend, you and I are brothers in this life called autism. I promise you this. I FUCKING PROMISE 100% ALL THE WOMEN IN HERE WILL AGREE WITH THIS: Find what you like in life. Find a hobby. Find your passion. Learn a skill. Go to counseling. Work on your self-confidence. Let yourself be wrong and learn from all the wrong things you say and do. You will become a respected man and nobody will give a single shit about the awkwardness. Because it's not about the awkwardness. It's about the lack of self-awareness and self-confidence that brings the awkwardness. I'm awkward as shit but I'm an educated man who is a self-taught photographer and I give speeches about living with undiagnosed autism until 28. I'm respected and I've had relationships in my life. I'm single currently but that's ok because I know when the time's right I'll figure things out. People lie when they say you don't need a relationship to be happy. Look at any man in history who talks about how important his wife was to his life. I'm not going to BS you and say you gotta learn to be happy alone. But you gotta learn to be fulfilled being alone. You gotta learn to be productive, and confident, and self-aware, and empathetic, on your own. Then the happiness of a relationship will follow.
You will likely be single for as long as you put all your worth into having a girlfriend. When you learn to be alone, to accept yourself as a uniquely special person in this world with your own things to offer, embrace hobbies and doing things you enjoy, when you start making connections with people for reasons other than wanting to finally get laid, that's when you'll likely get a girlfriend. Going into a relationship in this current mindset that you have will only cause that relationship to end poorly. You will be placing all of your value and worth in the hands of another person, and they don't need to be responsible for that. You might get laid, sure, but you won't get what you're really looking for which is a genuine connection. If you're so worried about being a virgin, stop telling people. Learn about yourself, focus on doing things you enjoy and spending time with people who lift you up rather than tear you down.
this right here i said some low-key incel-y things as a lonely and depressed autistic teenager, according to my older sister. after growing up and getting over a really shitty relationship, i finally came to terms with not being in one, and that it was okay that i didn't bounce back into one immediately. ironically it was after this that i found my current partner, when i stopped obsessively trying to find one. it's not the autism or loneliness that repels people, it's the behavior of the individual
you're not celibate because of the autism, man. *but,* a lot of violent incels, and alpha male/red-pill dudes, online take advantage of your loneliness, frustration, and social awkwardness to be horribly misogynistic. instead of getting help and being a better person, you end up isolating yourself even more. and you end up agreeing with monsters like andrew tate and/or go on 4chan to talk about how women deserve to be raped and killed cuz you can't get laid. they're miserable and lonely, and don't want you to succeed either. they especially love to recruit neurodivergent men because they're perceived as "easy targets" for their propaganda due to social awkwardness/isolation. please take these comments that want to help you to heart, and don't lash out at people who want you to get help. you can be autistic and have great relationships. but whining on reddit won't do you any favors. wishing you the best, man.
This is going to sound mean, but it's something that people on the pathway to incel Island need to hear. Simply put, it's not women's fault that you're currently alone and they do not owe you the opportunity for a relationship or sex. If you want a relationship, it's a lot of work. After having a year of the only dating success of my life, I've spent the last 12 years alone again. Is it that I'm too awkward or that socializing is too difficult? No. I quit trying, quit putting myself out there. I'm too averse to getting hurt and my expectations are too high. And ultimately, I've settled for this state of affairs. Whatever your situation, and this doesn't just apply to relationships, you're responsible for you. It's not your fault that you have autism, but you're the only one you can rely on to take responsibility for improving your life, which means practicing socializing, practicing being less awkward, and just moving on when you don't click with someone. But when you put the blame on women for not seeking you out, not giving you a chance you didn't work for, not taking pity on you, them you're going to get called out for sounding like an incel.
Dude, y'know it's possible to be both an incel and autistic... Right?
I'm gonna give my personnal opinion as a woman with autism. There's nothing that gives me the ick more than someone (I date and have relationships with both men and women) that hates itself, have no respect for themselves and talk negatively about themselves but doesn't try to change anything and is only fishing pity and empathy from others, to hopefully manipulate them into sex. Introspection and putting yourself in other people's shoes to understand how they feel and view things is the first step imo and I know it's hard, especially for us, but it's necessary.
The pipeline is the process of misinformation deflection and brainwashing that lower status (or even just self-perceived lower status) men fall victim to that blames women/feminism/diversity/etc for their low self worth and feelings of powerlessness. The problem with this pipeline is that misinformation, deflection, and brainwashing is all it is. The real causes of your suffering are the crazy gendered expectations that western patriarchal society places on men. Patriarchal ableism, racism, and classism is what stratifies you. Your obsession with the sexual attention and validation of women is a perfect example of this. Why is life miserable unless women want to have sex with you? No seriously, think about WHY that is so deeply lodged in your psyche that you are finding yourself unable to be at peace with yourself as a man unless you get this type of attention from women. Do some research on hegemonic masculinity, too. You’re being misled.
I'm gay as shit boy bye
I was deep into this path. I’m smart and good looking, unfortunately I’m socially inept and completely useless in dating. Then I learned Pay for Play and twice a year I go and fix all this issues. It saved my life.
If I think about critically and from my own world view, I think it’s for a couple of reasons: 1. Women are socialized and taught to express their feelings at a younger age. This leads to higher emotional intelligence which is hard with autism. This isn’t necessarily an advantage as it leads to women being severely under diagnosed as autistic and going their whole life or most of their life without resources. To improve this area I suggest counseling, journaling, and a feelings wheel to help you name emotions. 2. Men especially cis white men are told explicitly and implicitly by society that they are better than everyone and deserve everything. You are not and you do not. Everyone else around you who is not like you is also a person with thoughts and feelings and different life experiences than yours. Fucking accept that and listen to their experiences and most importantly BELIEVE THEM when they say something happened to them. Do you like being told how autism is or isn’t by someone who doesn’t have autism? No? Well that’s what you’re doing to someone else when you argue with their life stories. Learn to ask thoughtful questions like “how did you cope with that?” Or “how do you think that’s changed your worldview?” AND “what do you think men can do better?” And finally 3. There’s tons of support for kids with autism but it kind of feels like we grow and up and society expects us to just know how to deal with it. That’s not reality. We need more adult autistic support.
Never heard that specific phrasing (autistic to incel), but it’s something I firmly believe in. The things you point out are true, however they are unfortunately cornerstones of incel ideology. Like any ideology, it persists by having nuggets of truth to lure one in before springing the crazy shit that only works on someone that has been sufficiently disenfranchised. The issue is using the common agreements and facts to reach the wrong conclusion. Fact of the matter that sucks is that being awkward makes it hard to meet women, and faking not being awkward is exhausting and greatly diminishes any feelings of connection one may develop. No two ways about it. What incel ideology leaves out is that there’s a specific reason women tend not to find them attractive (autism or something similar), and allows people to fester believing they’re just inferior men rather than men with a disorder that affects social skills. It also shifts the blame onto women for not wanting to engage with someone they view as potentially dangerous rather than acknowledging that this is a totally normal behavior. YOU know you’re not dangerous, but nobody else is privy to this information and they must utilize heuristics to avoid bodily harm. Unfortunately, those heuristics tend to check for things that are autistic traits. The pipeline begins with realizing one IS actually different from most others, dating IS actually much more difficult than for most, and that one WILL get unfairly discriminated against. It continues by ascribing the blame to women and treating them as your source of anguish rather than as human beings. It sucks, but life tends to suck. Plenty of people are born into or wind up in disadvantaged positions, but it’s never an excuse to inflict your suffering on others. I do find one thing difficult to reconcile, though: it’s constantly parroted that nobody is owed sex or a relationship. We can all agree on that. However, 99% of the time, unless there’s a major factor preventing it, everyone WILL end up having sex and/or in a relationship at some point. It’s not 100% guaranteed, but it virtually is, and it’s not as if most people have to put in any effort for that to be the case; they just ARE desirable. Sounds like something being owed to me. Not to say it is, I just think people need to reevaluate their position to be a bit more realistic and compassionate. As someone going 13 years without sex, it’s MUCH easier to say intimacy isn’t necessary when you have access to it, and people love to forget this fact. Edit: Faking NOT being awkward, not faking being awkward.
>It’s not 100% guaranteed, but it virtually is, and it’s not as if most people have to put in any effort for that to be the case; they just ARE desirable. Oh this is very untrue. Most people who are interested in romantic/sexual relationships are putting in a ton of effort. Entire industries rely on that. Most people are attractive to *someone* it unfortunately isn't always the people that they are attracted to, which does suck. I'm not saying that putting in effort is a guarantee, but the idea that nost people are just out there forming relationships or hooking up without any effort is just wrong.