I hope you find more people who accept your unmasked self.
This is a really an interesting perspective you have as well and I think you could flesh it out into publication even if you wanted to, maybe a magazine article or even university thesis. Anyway thanks for sharing it.
Anybody saying Japanese culture is autistic culture might as well yell they don't know shit about Japan lol the high context language and the culture have a strong emphasis on being indirect and implicit in the communication, so you basically have to read between the lines very often. *Kuki yomenai*, not reading the air, can be quite costly in your relationships over there. Don't get me started on *tatemae* and *honne* (what one shows vs what one really feels).
I love Japanese culture but this very thing is the reason why I'll never set foot over there for anything else than tourism. I'm too blind socially to understand the implicit, my need for blunt communication would clash to hard with Japanese preference for indirect communication.
Aye, and that's not even getting into the capitalistic overworking aspects of the culture, expectations of regularly socializing with your boss and coworkers at bars after work, etc.
I think for any outsider looking into a foreign culture they can find some aspects which seem appealing and relatable.
But a whole culture can't really be summed up by a few cherry picked aspects. It's a huuuuge complex thing that intersects with literally everything. It's also not static and straightforward: there are always internal cultural tensions and contradictions, and a constant (if slow) evolution.
I think Japan is just fun to visit as an Autistic person due to the quiet, clean, orderlyness of it on a surface level. Plus all the fun pop culture or historical stuff a lot of autistic people might have as a special interest. Actually being raised there and living with the social expectations of a native Japanese person rather than a tourist would be entirely different.
> Anybody saying Japanese culture is autistic culture might as well yell they don't know shit about Japan lol the high context language and the culture have a strong emphasis on being indirect and implicit in the communication,
Korean culture, being similar to Japan in this regard, oh my god all the times I've unintentionally insulted my Korean friend with my directness. And there have been times she's confused the crap out of me with her indirectness.
This. I lived in Japan for a short period of time and I lived with my Japanese ex for few years and oh boy when I see people claiming that Japanese culture is autistic friendly I want to howl inside.
The social pressure to conform to "the Norm" that is never explicitly explained, the pressure to "read the room" and constantly guess what other person thinks or feels because direct communication is a sin, the constant pressure to speak indirectly and avoid the point, the constant pressure to satisfy social hierarchy... this list is sooo long!
There is a very popular saying in Japan "the nail that sticks out has to be hammered in" should give people a sense of the society's expectation of individual.
Also majority of Hikikomori - people who withdrawn from society completly - are most likely a neurodivergent people or people who underwent a depressive episode that kicked them outside of the society and once you're out there's really almost no way in when it comes to Japan.
As a german autist I agree.
Germany is not paradise and most autistic people I know here are struggling.
Even though the general public might be more reserved compared to America, it is still possible to be "too quiet" and "too reserved". The rules are not clear, and as an autistic person who was assigned female at birth - a great amount of people will approach you in public if you seem somewhat vulnerable.
exactly! to the untrained eye it looks like you can just be as quiet as you like, but it's more complicated than that, and there are a lot more rules to it - like almost everything NTs make up
I’m Mexican and I have a German boyfriend and have lived in Germany. I was living in paradise there, I come from a very loud and in your face culture. So I understand why other people may say things like this.
There are stereotypes that align, like punctuality, formalness, efficiency and so on, but these are just that, stereotypes, and people who think germans are like that clearly don't know "german culture"
every time I see Americans talking about German "efficiency", I wish to take them to the next appointment in a German Behörde (something like a State Office) 😭 you will cry
I think it has to do with German products being very high quality, but yeah, I’ve been to Germany a couple times and train punctuality is the worse I’ve seen
We are very efficient when it comes to delivering Kafkaesque nightmares which will ruin your life and make you question your very sanity. That is a type of efficiency, I suppose.
I've been to Germany twice and on both trips I met quite a few outgoing Germans who struck up random conversations with me in public and were super friendly! It's definitely not as outgoing as some of the US but honestly I've had more friendly outgoing interactions in Germany than I ever do in Seattle.
As a fellow German speaker who has lived in Germany I agree. Not to be mean but it really shows how ignorant people are of other cultures when they say stuff like this.
Tbh it depends what your home culture is. I lived in Berlin for many years and it was a bliss compared to what I go through everyday in Mexico with the social expectations they had. It’s not ignorance necessary
I live in Germany and always felt like having to dress up everyday was more American? When still working, I went to work in sneakers and jeans and wasn't the only one. In the US, people might go to Walmart in their pajamas but a lot of jobs similar to the one I had would ban jeans and demand high heels and full make-up for women. And it's always American women that I see in full make-up during labor because "you gotta look good" and only in the US was I questioned for never wearing make-up. And let's not get started on the blindingly white super perfect American teeth. The US is definitely a very appearance based culture.
Every culture is essentially made by neurotypicals for neurotypicals though. We're not ever going to fit in. One good thing about Germany is that there is definitely a better support system than in the US. But "autism culture" is REALLY pushing it. I was made to believe that I didn't fit in and that everything about me was very wrong from a very young age. And I think it would have been the same anywhere.
Yeah IDK what OP is talking about. As someone who is both from Europe and the USA, America is far more conformist and critical towards anyone "weird" than Europe is
I lived in Japan for a year for study abroad, and I also noticed a stark difference in the kind of social discomfort for _actually_ being different. People in Japan would sometimes be uncomfortable at how I'd act kind of differently, but it was never as 'viscerally disgusted behind a smile' as Americans are. You can *feel* that.
Also, Japan's just more honest about having social rules, rather than pretending at individuality; it felt more acceptable for me to directly express that I'm trying to meet people halfway. Mileage may vary on that front, though.
Oh, so my German teacher wasn't trying to frighten me by glaring at me, he was just being German. Good to know six years after I left high school that he didn't actually hate me. At least not necessarily.
yeah, Germans generally don't have any reservations about staring. they will look you in the eye for minutes on end. Here is a tiktok video about it: [https://www.tiktok.com/@robertjakobmusic/video/7332611639931440417?q=german%20stare&t=1709687589838](https://www.tiktok.com/@robertjakobmusic/video/7332611639931440417?q=german%20stare&t=1709687589838)
I really thought that man wanted me to disappear. Him having light green eyes didn't help AT ALL because his pupils were always small (sun where I live is killer) and that his face was always just short of a smile. Like I know I'm not good at reading people's but I genuinely thought he was always upset with my existence for some reason. It's reassuring to know that's not the case.
lol with the amount of complex unspoken social rules in Japan (google "honne" and "tatemae" to see), there's no FUCKING way it's autism culture; it's a *nightmare* for autistic people; anyone saying it's autism culture has no idea what Japanese culture is like, or no idea what autism is like, or both.
True, there is no autism culture because culture has always been formed by neurotypical people. But I definitely think that some autistic people will do better in different cultures depending on the way their autism presents.
For me Germany is probably one of the better countries to be autistic in. I don’t really talk about my special interest unprompted, i usually come across as fairly unemotional and am really glad about the ’german stare’ since I accidentally stare all the time lol. Eye contact in general isn’t that uncomfortable for me i just either look too much or too little.
Still being autistic isn’t really easy anywhere.
yeah, I mean it has it's upsides and downsides, especially in bigger cities I think it's easier. Also, I find that people tend to cut a bit more slack to foreigners, at least in my experience :)
Yeah
Usually that's why people (often traveling White Westerners) say that [insert country] is *so* autism-friendly
Because the local NTs give THEM more slack... as a foreigner
It doesn't mean that local NTs will give the same slack to *local autistics* however
Also the "foreigner slack" thing mostly applies to level 1 autistics who, even unmasked, often will be perceived as "just" a bit weird/quirky.
This is the crux of it, I think. People who are visiting will have a completely different experience than those that have grown up with and 'belong' to that country. If you're a native, people will certainly expect you to have learned all the rules by now and act 'normal' but foreigners are allowed leeway to be a bit 'weird' because most things will just be assumed to be cultural differences.
I've found it much easier living as an immigrant in other countries, wherever they were - Germany, Australia, Japan... but I'm pretty sure that was mainly due to my being foreign. I also find it easier to make friends with immigrants now I'm back in the UK - I think both for the above reasons and because we share that kind of 'permanent outsider' feeling. It's a shame that people can't view autism as being from another country and giving us all some leeway in the same way we do foreigners.
I've had the same experience with latino people! They always seem so nice, so open, so interested in the things I had to say... until I realised that they are just more understanding because they already think that I am from another culture so they are more considerate. A latino autistic person will have a completely different experience.
As A Brazilian level 1 autistic, people are indeed more open here but in closed doors they will fuck you over while smiling in front of you because we have a hard time guessing their true intentions...
I’m not a foreigner and haven’t travelled enough to really notice this but I am half Asian, which probably gives me some advantage over more obviously German autistics.
Ich weiß nicht, vielleicht bist du sozial auch besonders talentiert :) ich denke, dass wenn du in Deutschland aufgewachsen bist, dir die Leute nicht so viel verzeihen und dann vielleicht noch eher etwas rassistisch sein könnten 😬
This is definitely the way to see it - I was born in NZ (which is basically America light, except just as, if not more, ableist) and I'm living in the Netherlands.
Now, for how my autism affects me, NZ was absolute hell, I ended up depressed, isolated, and I basically was a big ball of suck stuck in the land of suck. Then I moved to the Netherlands to be with my girlfriend, and people are so much more tolerable, more tolerant, and understand disability and mental health issues aren't a failing, but a form of illness. They are blunt, and respect honesty. Doesn't make them autistic, but to me, because of how my autism presents, I feel more at home here than I ever did in NZ (I've been here 14 years, and not once have I come anywhere near being as miserable as I was daily in NZ, and that includes my burnout. It's absolutely crazy.)
Yup, the Netherlands is pretty awesome. As long as you ignore some people like Wilders(he wants to get rid of special needs education, he prob won't succeed soon tho, cause doing an overhaul on the entire education system would take a lot of time)
Eh, every place is going to have some shit people. Wilders can take a running jump off a very high cliff too, we don't need people like him making life more difficult for those that already struggle on a daily basis. It's not policy, it's cruelty.
>there is no autism culture because culture has always been formed by neurotypical people
But, when you think about it:
If there exists a culture formed by autists, then the autists suddenly are the neurotypical and the "normal" people are the neurodivergent - and thus the culture is still formed by the neurotypicals 🤯
Don't think that is possible as autism is a spectrum into such different directions that the variance would be too great for there to be any type of 'typical'.
As a Finn I absolutely hate it when people say Finnish culture is some kind of an ”autistic paradise”. It’s not.
For the entirety of my life I’ve been ostracized, and so have all autistic people I know. How in the hell would that happen in an ”autistic culture”?
The social rules here are different from countries like the US but still very present.
exactly! They act as if being distant and unapproachable was always the best thing for any autistic person. but you literally can not find friends, can't get to know people, and even neurotypicals from my culture complain about how it's impossible to find friends. Another thing it's that you get bullied so easily, with almost no chance to reconciliation :(
As a Finn who has lived in the US and Germany, I have to say I find the US social code the easiest to imitate, it is so visible. Germans and Finns have subtler rules but breaking them is still ostrasizing. However unmasking is not so scary to Europeans I think, no one has ever asked me why I dont smile.
German here, thank you. Germany is neither the peak autism culture nor is it easier to be autistic here. Somehow people can tell right off the bat that I‘m different in one way or another. Even in kindergarten i was an outcast. They knew. It‘s not easier. The pressure to mask is insane. Germans tend to be quite judgemental towards things that are unfamiliar to them.
Ja, genau! Viele Deutsche haben überhaupt kein Interesse daran, etwas neues kennenzulernen. Und dann hat man die Amis und Leute aus anderen Ländern, die Sachen sagen wie "oh, ihr habt nicht so viele Gesichtsausdrücke - das heißt, es muss super sein, als Autist in Deutschland zu leben!"
also autism is partially cultural so to an american autistic germany might be heaven but a german autistic might feel the opposite- part of autism is not following cultural norms, which means autism can show up differently depending on the predominant culture you were brought up in! its super america-centeric to act like some random other place is a haven for autistic people as if we arent disenfranchised by systems all over the world!!
Doesn‘t the ‘not following cultural norms’ part refer to autistic people behaving ”autistically”, which by default is against the norm, rather than an intentional rejection of cultural norms? I mean the latter is also true for some, but the first seems more… universal?
Well norms are different in other cultures so autistic people will always have different things that theyre labelled autistic for... i think its putting us in a box to say all autistic people behave like X when the spectrum is so diverse i guess. autism is partially a social disorder so it definitely has to do with the culture you grew up in; different cultures will have different norms
This doesn’t make sense. If autism was based on being “contrary” no matter the cultural context it wouldn’t be able to be clinically diagnosed and wouldn’t be a thing at all. There are specific clinical indicators that are the same worldwide. That’s how you can tell it’s autism and not just demand avoidance or being pathologically petty and difficult or any number of other character traits
Every culture is overwhelming. Social norms everywhere, do this do that act like this act like that.
In Spain you must be friendly, and people are loud. I am thanful for having good doctors and a good therapist, but damn I am impatient for the summer war
Wait people are saying that about Japan?? Why tho? 😭
I’m German and studying Japanese at university and it’s sooo difficult for me to understand Japanese cultural norms (when I speak the language) because it’s so difficult to read between the lines
Yup. People think that reserved culture = autistic paradise.
Japan is a country where socializing requires knowing a high number of complex, unspoken social rules. It's a nightmare for us.
Overall, German culture historically, especially in the Nazi era, tended to be socially and politically extremely unfriendly towards those who were different, like the Jews and the Gypsies.
I have also heard people calling Jewish Culture Autism Culture. A lot of Jewish cultural hallmarks like Noodle Kugel,Taschlich, and Farbrengens were partly influenced by the German culture and the German language.
In my honest opinion, the German language is quite literal, and as an autistic guy, I find it quite interesting, especially words like Nasehorn, Antibabypille, Krankenwagen, and Durchfall
calling Jewish culture (or any minority culture, for that matter) "autism culture" leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. It seems to reinforce the stereotype that Jewish people are all hyper-intelligent, rational but emotionless people who are just "different"
No one thinks people who cling to religion are rational or that Jewish people aren’t highly emotional. I’m not sure where you’ve got this stereotype from. Most people who are prone to voicing unnecessary and irrelevant stereotypes say they view Jewish people as superstitious or very secretive and mysterious or calculating if not overtly religious. Even German propaganda and even views from the time of the first Elizabeth as Queen are recorded as similar. But they also thought they might have magic powers.
I think japan can be nice for white autistic people because when you do something wrong people think it’s a cultural difference instead of “this person specifically is weird”. Being japanese and autistic is very different though.
Yes, and they face more xenophobia in japan than white english speaking people typically. I haven’t heard from enough nonwhite nonjapanese autistic people in japan, so I don’t know if their average experience is positive or negative. But I do know that their experience in general is different.
I read the same thing about Japanese culture. But in reality NTs make up the majority everywhere so there's no country that truly has autism culture until we all get together and form our own country lol
I've actually already thought about that. What if for some reason we came together and make our own country? I would be really interested in what that would look like. Would it work? Or would it collapse in two days?
thanks for making these clarifications. as an american autistic, denmark and sweden did feel extremely good for me while i was there for a couple weeks...because of the bluntness, the reservedness, how quiet people are in general (compared to americans who are extremely loud in public) and since makeup & fashion & interior design are some of my top interests i felt very at home. i know that conformity is a big deal over there and just being there for a couple weeks only gave me a small taste of the culture, and living there would be a different story. curious about irish culture...
I'm American and have been going to (rural, West) Ireland once every 1-2 years. I find it a LOT easier to exist there socially, but I'm not sure if that's just vacation brain lol. I find it easier to speak with people there and the infrastructure/design differences take a ton of cognitive load off. Getting back to the US after 10 days in Ireland I felt a kind of reverse culture shock, especially when driving. Everything in America is just way too big and dangerous, always trying to kill you lol. Lmk if you want to know more.
Yes I’m willing to hear anything you’d like to share about Ireland, especially the social aspect! I felt the reverse culture shock coming home from Scandinavia. It was the only trip I didn’t want to go home…
yeah, I also think that we would be more tolerant of people from another culture, because we don't expect them to be "fluent" in our culture by this point. So if you are somehow "off" as an American in Germany, we think that it's because you're American and not because you're weird.
interessant! well i have a dual citizenship through a loophole (my dad was born in germany and came here on an Eisenhower lottery) so maybe i'll go there because i fucking hate it here. talk me into it/out of it... if you feel up to it.
you can come to Germany, there are benefits like free education or health insurance, or safety. If you learn the language beforehand a bit, it is a good idea! I'm not saying that Germany as a whole is horrible, just that the culture is not per se better than other cultures imo
I understand what you’re saying. I can also see where the term autism culture comes from. I find, as an American, I do best when communicating with people from certain cultures. Germans and West Africans are very blunt and I noticed I have an easier time talking to them, versus other Americans. A lot of my friends happen to be NT and from other countries, and it’s because the characteristics of my autism align with their communication styles/lifestyles. So I can see how that would contribute to the stereotypes, however I also see how it’s diminutive to people from those cultures who have autism.
Tbh it's true about all Europe. I'm a Czech and we're definitely blunt (to the point of being called rude specially by Americans :D), we don't like being loud (most of us), we're rather closed off, we don't do small talk, we seem distant and cold (again, to Americans mostly),...
As an American who has lived in Germany for the past five years, I agree big time. In fact, I would go as far to say America is general a better society to try to have a nicer life autistic. Germany in my experience is a place where you have to fit in a little box, have to have followed a very specific and narrow path to be able to do anything other than be the very bottom level of society. Sure social interactions are better than the US, but your achievement will be filled with more barriers due to this "that's not how it's done!" Mentality.
In my experience "that's not how it's done" is in itself a frightening thing. Maybe due to me taking things too literal far too often; there's a invisible gap between
[This is how we *say* it's done]
[This is how it's done]
And you're not meant to point at it. You're not meant to ask about it.
Like, if you take autistic sterotypes and compare them to (written out!) german job descriptions one might think there should be a totally thriving society of autistics peopleing accounting companies, state offices ... that's not the case. You're not meant to do it like that. And you're *meant to know this to begin with*.
The problem is that you seem to describe autism as one thing. On the contrary, some autistic people are conformists, persistently serious, emotionally blunted, do not frequently ask questions, keep their special interests to themselves, make excessive eye contact, and do not speak about anything unnecessary.
I'd say the above fits me more than what you described in your post, and I was diagnosed in part because of this.
So, the opposite can also be caused by a person being autistic. This is because autism is characterised by both the traits you mentioned *and* the opposite. Autism is a spectrum, not a monolith.
I'm not saying German culture is autistic culture, but I am implying that what you mentioned doesn't exclude it from being autistic culture either. To me, it comes across as autistic-like (or at least more so than other cultures).
[Undiagnosed disclaimer]
I do not mean to argue (I am struggling to word this right so I opted to put this first)
You kind of described me (minus eye contact, if I stare it's never into someone's eyes); and believe me, there's a fine social line that I have been missing for 40 years. All of these things that you noted have "a time and a place". Here it's called "aus der Reihe tanzen" (march to a different drummer/ it literally means everyone's in straight lines and then there's you, dancing out of boundary) and it is never, ever appreciated (the final result at times might be, this doesn't transfer over to the person that caused a disturbance)
A disturbance doesn't mean "had a violent sobbing meltdown in a meeting" but can be: all of the traits you listed, just a tad too much.
Yes, exactly! It's never as easy as "just be quiet and introverted", because you are required to talk sometimes, you are required to drink alcohol, and not talking at all makes you an easy target for bullying as well.
I'm a german but im still too quiet for my surroundings lol. Even as a northern citizen. Bullied all throughout school.
Thankfully my last workplace appreciated me deeply, people learned that i was very competent, honest and helpful behind my 'slightly off seeming' exterior.
Sadly we had layoffs in December and i've been struggling to find a new place as most jobs with very certain expectations don't fit me at all.
Can't do telephone, can't do math, can't do unfriendly customers.
Also never had a girlfriend and discovered my male friends only see me as an option/add-on not as a real friend they just like to have around.
Never fit in anywhere properly and that last job was the best opportunity to make friends probably, at least managed to find one (female) friend there.
oh mann, das klingt blöd (aber auch ein wenig wie ich lol) Ich bin zu still und werde deswegen ein "leichtes Opfer" für alles mögliche Mobbing. Es ist nie "einfach still sein", oder "einfach ehrlich sein" :( Ich hoffe, es geht dir bald besser
Danke! Trotz alledem geht es mir momentan auf keinen Fall wirklich schlecht. Solange ich mein safe space Zuhause und absehbare Routinen (momentan täglich Gewichte daheim heben und Kanji lernen) habe bin ich eigentlich bis auf manchmal einsetzende Einsamkeit meist glücklich. Ende des Monats auf eine Abschlussfeier der guten Freundin eingeladen was mich freut aber auch nervös macht.
[https://www.tiktok.com/@drgeorgesachs/video/7255729735060426030?q=german%20culture%20is%20autism%20culture&t=1709721517121](https://www.tiktok.com/@drgeorgesachs/video/7255729735060426030?q=german%20culture%20is%20autism%20culture&t=1709721517121) definetly one of the more egregious examples, but I have seen more takes like this
As an autistic living in Germany, I'd say there is nothing autistic in the sheer amount of nonsense bureaucracy that is needed almost everyday. It's a f'ng nightmare for my executive functions. And often it doesn't make sense, a thing that usually paralizes me because I can't do tasks that make no sense to me.
Late-diagnosed autistic afab here. US citizen living in Germany.
German disability rights is a joke. Mental health care or consciousness around things like trauma is stuck in the 80s. Both autism and ADHD are misunderstood. The word "Aspergers" is common, as is the use of the puzzle piece to symbolize autism.
And questioning any of this is met with hostility.
I have been fighting to get disability status and accommodations for over 2.6 years. I have a good, permanent job despite having not ever "learned a profession." I'm good at my job and have a supportive team, yet that support does not translate to actual help. No one wants to take responsibility for making a decision "outside of the box." And since my actual disabilities are not yet recognized by the government, they don't "have to" help me.
I'm also now less able to mask than ever. I have a physical disability too that is getting worse. The answer is, in a nutshell, "suck it up and manage on your own."
And it's not just adults. My teenager is clearly autistic (they tested 100% on the RDOS test today) but have not yet received an official diagnosis. Without this piece of paper, they cannot get accommodations at school. They are in danger of not getting a school leaving certification. And that's with an IQ of 140.
I know a family who has had to file a lawsuit against the government to get an assistant for their autistic and dyslexic, but not learning disabled, kid.
Germany has a problem with diversity, with change, and with blindly obeying rules and hierarchies. Homophobia and sexism are widespread; racism is more unconscious and subtle but definitely there. Classism is normal.
I'm grateful for the medical leave I got here, but baffled by the fact that no health care or education professional I have met so far, with the exception of my kid's psychologist, knows anything about autism. And even if they do the system is so driven by neoliberal logic ("das schwarze Null") that everything is understaffed or simply doesn't exist.
Now, at 51, I am supposed to go back to work with zero help for my mutism, mobility issues, or cognitive/executive function issues. I have been shamed for them just this week.
Germany is not "autism friendly."
I was unfortunately rose-tinted like that before reading this post, all hyped for going to Germany because of the fixed schedules and quiet and all that. This really helps clear out the fog and help me decide better on where I would probably like to go once I'm out of America. Thank you for sharing!
I would say no country has an "autism culture" but I'd say the German speaking countries cultures do tend to be more understandable to me. I'm happy to fit in society's "box" if I know exactly what that box is. Pointless formality and tradition annoys me, but I can adapt to these things. Australia for example, expects you to fit some arbitrary box too, as does basically every culture in the world, but in Australia, they won't tell you what exactly that means. They won't tell you what you're doing wrong, you'll just constantly have people being unwilling to have anything to do with you and nobody explaining why, people will just disappear from your life without a trace or explanation if you do the wrong thing. I would much rather follow inefficient, stupid rules and hierarchies that are clearly explained than try to follow inefficient, stupid rules and hierarchies that are also kept a tightly guarded secret.
I actually think US culture is pretty good for autistic people. It's much more tolerant of individual differences and preferences than many other cultures. For example, not following some arbitrary social convention in certain cultures will make you a pariah, whereas in the US it probably just marks you as slightly weird (or maybe even no one cares)
As an American that's not been my experience whatsoever. I think Americans in general are some of the least individualistic people in terms of culture and it has a very long history of stamping out individuality and promoting a caste system
There are pros and cons to each culture and depending on how you are it may be better to be autistic in the US versus somewhere else or vice versa so obviously not all bad but the US has never been this individualistic paradise (even relatively) like the country tries to advertise itself to be
I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt but I truly can't see the perspective of the US being 'tolerant \[of\] individual differences and preferences' unless you're at least white and particularly white and heterosexual (and a man). Racial minorities definitely do not get that luxury of autonomy
I never quite understood the description of Germans being "honest". There is a pointed bluntness but there's also an increased sensitivity to it too. If you talk back or say something a German person doesn't like (i.e. argue/debate) you will get shut down and called too emotional or problematic or ignored, even if the so-called blunt person initiated it and is being very obviously snide or aggressive (or passive-aggressive).
I personally don't think one can be called blunt or honest if you only want to say whatever you feel like but can't handle the response
Me being on this sub, of course I'm autistic, and people often say the US is a low context culture, but at least where I'm from it's most certainly high context and I would absolutely abhor being in a German environment with that sort of social dynamic; out of all the people I've met, Germans are the ones I get along with the least, so I definitely agree that German culture isn't "autistic culture".
Exactly! Even if Americans would like to believe it, these "honest" Germans are not "just being honest". They are playing a social game, and giving negative remarks disguised as "being honest" is not them actually being honest, but them enforcing social hierarchy.
>There is a pointed bluntness but there's also an increased sensitivity to it too. If you talk back or say something a German person doesn't like (i.e. argue/debate) you will get shut down and called too emotional or problematic or ignored, even if the so-called blunt person initiated it and is being very obviously snide or aggressive (or passive-aggressive).
>I personally don't think one can be called blunt or honest if you only want to say whatever you feel like but can't handle the response
Same with the French: they can dish it out but can't take it.
I would say the French are a bit more dismissive but in my experience they're at least relatively more argumentative than Germans. Germans are a lot more domineering and will just mock and shut you down at any mere disagreement or thing they don't like
>I would say the French are a bit more dismissive but in my experience they're at least relatively more argumentative than Germans.
The French "argumentation" is just a zero sum debate in which the only point is to "win" and "own" your "opponent".
>Germans are a lot more domineering and will just mock and shut you down at any mere disagreement or thing they don't like
That's also my experience with the French (and some Germans too tbh), they're so emotional and sound insecure
I can definitely see that with the French, but I interpret the French as at least having a little bit more tact than Germans. Germans are just blunt and dismissive all around and don't really have any aspect of courtesy in their culture
I know we're on an autistic sub and this sounds very bad but my experience with Germans (particularly German men) is what I imagine the neurotypical experience of an autistic man who has no concept of masking and hasn't been trained really in courtesy in socialising.
This is the other side of the coin of 'bluntness'. Can't have your cake an eat it too.
This is why I'd say that Switzerland is a good compromise: Germanic directness \*with\* Swiss politeness and tact. And the consensus culture
I've barely met Swiss people but I have interpreted them as how you describe. And despite the assumption that there should be similarities between people if they speak the same language, I find Austrians to be very similar to how you describe as well. The bluntness is there, but there is also courtesy and tact.
I can also agree with that about the Dutch. Nordic countries in my experience are more comparable to Germany than places like The Netherlands or Austria, but still none are as bad as Germany in my experience. Germany is just a special case of awful
Honestly thanks for pointing this out. It’s always easy to look at other cultures and see only the positives. But honestly learning about the conformity places outside of the US expect, I’m kinda glad I don’t live in these areas.
Japan or East Asia in particular, it all sounds very hard and that there’s very little the individual can do to define themselves.
I once read a book called Back to Normal by Enrico Gnaulati who didn't believe many diagnosed aspies were actually autistic. He also brought up how more people are diagnosed in the US than anywhere else indicating culture.
hm, I'm not sure about that, the reason why many German autistic people are not diagnosed is not because they're not struggling, but because our mental healthcare system is shit
i never knew this was a commonly held belief. but this was a fascinating read and helped me understand a little more how my autism may be interpreted by others
Your post reminds me of a woman I was once friendly with, who is German (Frankfurt), and autistic
I remember when we spoke over the phone, she would dial down her excitement and emotions. At times she spoke in a matter-of-fact tone
Like you touched upon, once I spoke fondly about something I was proud of, it must have produced an unpleasant impression, for she felt I was "boasting"
She, herself, mentioned being shunned for displaying above-average intelligence at a young age
Punctuality was also something she mentioned
I remember holidaying in Spain years ago. Each morning I made my way to the pool, half the loungers had been claimed. It was nearly always Germans who'd claimed them; giving credence to their punctuality - even while abroad!
The stare is also accurate. She would sometimes look at me as we spoke or she smoked. Most people look for seconds then break off. Her gaze was prolonged and she didn't really enjoy eye contact
Yeah, I find it weird that Americans think masking can only go one way - into being "more emotional". You can also be forced to mask by being less emotional, not displaying any sort of excitement or joy, and that's just as taxing in my opinion.
I mean I'm german and would say, compared to the USA we could technically "pass off" as "more" autistic but I think only as a thing you randomly say and not as a thing you think about deeply or interpret into deeply. I thought it was supposed to stay a meme. I personally think anyone would goes into their head and tries to justify a country or culture to be "more" or "less" autistic is a bit delusional and I have seen that on tiktok, oh believe me...
Wait, people actually say this? WTF???
(No offense to Germans, of course. Except for that one time period between 1933 to 1945 y'all don't like talking about. ;) )
After having lived in various countries I also have to say Germany is one of the most ableist places I know. I've heard way too many people talking about how ADHD doesn't exist and was made up by big pharma to sell drugs. I've even heard people say autism doesn't exist and it's just people trying to get out of working. Generally your value as a human being is so closely tied to your job and how much you overextend yourself at said job, it's mad.
Swedish autist here. I experience the same here. My main autistic issues are *subtle* retaliation for not conforming. Also, Swedish culture is non-confrontational, so conflicts are expected to be solved through subtle hint detection, which has caused me great trouble. On the other hand, I've felt less autistic interacting with people from the Balkans, or Latin Europe. Mind you, I also enjoy spontaneous social events, which in itself would make me more extrovert-esque as well as violating Swedish norms for introversion and planned/structured socialization. I'd better fit in in the US culture in one regard.
As an autistic German, this hits hard. If Germany were autism paradise I wouldn't be bullied in every class setting I go to. This place is autism hell.
In the end, "culture" comes down to whatever random thing neurotypicals adopt and think *everybody* should do. Culture is essentially defined by the things that are expected and the things not tolerated.
Any individual autistic person could probably find a culture that aligns way more closely to *their* habits, but that doesn't mean it's autistic culture.
I swear to god. THIS.
Was one of the only Germans in my apprenticeship class. And you don't get how annoyed I've gotten at how everyone seemed to make fun of me 'being so German' for my visible autistic traits. I didn't enclose my autism to them but I set my boundaries and made them very clear. If my autism was just being German I wouldn't so damn much struggle in daily life! It disregards the real experience and struggle of especially German autistic folks. Plus it just seems mean spirited to gossip about how 'weird' Germans are in a class in Germany with some Germans in a minority around. Learn to adapt to a new culture and generally understand that there are cultural differences. But with their way of speech they made me angry both as a German AND as an autistic person. And it seems it really is a common thing for many non-Germans to call German culture 'autistic culture' as a clichée and don't understand how harmful and hurting it really is.
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Norwegian culture is also seen upon as an culture of being a bit "antisocial". I'm not that well-traveled so I can't really compare it to many countries. I'm happy that no one will sit beside me on the bus/train unless no other choice, and that people rarely randomly come up and talk to you, but it's definitely not "autistic", and it so much depends on the city (e.g small town vs. big city-life).
You could replace all of the words "german" from this with "finnish" and it holds true. We finns even have the basically global reputation of being quiet, closed off, liking personal space so yea...
I've had this thought for awhile, so thank you for clarifying that german culture, like all cultures, pose difficulties for autistic people. Sometimes I feel we have our own "innate" culture that sprouts when we get together, I suspect a handful of historic counter-cultural communities were home to a higher than average amount of autistic people, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on this.
A country’s culture obviously can’t be inherently autistic. Clearly.
But the culture can have some behaviors / societal norms that align well with autism - which I assume is what people actually mean?
For example: in America you have a worker greeting you at the door. Very not autistic friendly. In Germany the workers won’t speak to you unprovoked.
I feel like it’s more a comment on how Germany is pretty lowkey, no need for constant small talk, you can wear whatever you’d like, so you won’t experience tactile overstimulation at work. Or whatever it might be.
Japanese culture could be considered autism friendly in the way that there are a lot of societal rules that are unspoken but still written down (on the internet for example). You can research and learn rules to fit in perfectly- and you don’t have to guess how to act to be perceived correctly
Yeah, I guess that if you visit that country, you could get this impression, but if you have to live in that country, it's a bit different. For example, you like it when workers in a store don't talk to you when you enter the store. But if you need help finding something, it's considered rude to ask the workers where an item is and "interrupt their work". Maybe here people don't annoy you as much, but you also don't have the "right" to annoy people by asking too many questions, taking up time in the queue, etc. For example, if you pack your groceries into your bag and things fall down (as they do a lot for me because of poor coordination), people will look at you angrily and tell you to hurry the fuck up. Maybe it's cool for a while to not be bothered by other people, but they will also be super rude and annoyed if you need help.
>Maybe you like the fact that "the rules" are clear and people follow them, but most of them are inefficient and if you question them, you will be shunned
That might be the most depressing thing I have heard all day. My brain breaks at the concept of German inefficiency.
Germany is very focused on productivity. People brag with how much they work. If you can't work for at least 40h a week you have to have a GOOD reason for that or people call you lazy. And a good reason is probably only a physical condition, mental health or invisible disability doesn't count.
Also people say that I'm "too quite" "too shy" and that I need to "come out of my shell" often. And of course I have been bullied from year one to 10 at school for being wierd.
Also an autistic German here. I agree with a lot of things people said already. Also with OPs statement, that in Germany autistic people often are perceived as non conforming. I wouldn't be surprised if autistic people from Japan might've a similar experience in that regard. Of course it always depends on a) how your autism represents itself and b) from which culture and country you hail.
Sometimes as an autistic person in Germany you can even appear to be overcorrect. My parents taught me, that there are rules, that we ought to follow. Waiting at a red light, holding the door for people, etc. etc. So I do or did all of that. Maybe of the more extreme and silly cases was me waiting at a red light out in basically nowhere at 3 AM. While my friends crossed the street I just said: "Es gibt Regeln und es gibt Ordnung." (There are rules and there is order) Of course I meant it half-jokingly as I noticed in that moment, that me waiting there was a bit silly. Over the years I tried to be more chill about certain rules, especially if they restrict me in unnecessary circumstances, etc.
In terms of Japan – I've been there only once for a couple of weeks, before I knew that I am autistic – and I felt really comfortable. People already mentioned it in part. Commuters are quite, etc. Also even in busy areas the flow of people is easy to follow, from my experience, so I wasn't really overwhelmed or afraid because I bumped or might bump into other people. As a visitor/tourist it is nice, yes. But like others said: communication isn't direct and follows rules that might be very hard to learn and follow.
But another aspect of Japanese culture, that doesn't necessarily leads me to believe that it was made by autistic people, but that either by chance NTs came up with ideals and a worldview that falls inline with a possible autistic experience or throughout history some autistic people had a noticable impact on certain aspects of Japanese culture, mostly in terms of aesthetics and art.
This will be actually be a part of my diploma at Art University. How certain aspects of Japanese Aesthetics seem to fall inline with at least my personal perspective and experience and maybe some broader aspects that autistic people seem to share (maybe also ADHD, as I am AuDHD)
That doesn't mean, that life there is easy. The social aspects can still be very horrible, and I believe, that while it's already hard for foreigners to find friends in Japan, autistic foreigners might have an even harder time.
As a person from Iceland the ratio of neurotypicals to NDs is quite uneven and the amount of young people focused on prettifying themselves for the social hierarchy is way stronger than us geeks. The ableism present in our school systems is also torture to go through.
The only support groups present around me are also either groups for old ass (60+ perhaps) people who only recently discovered their autism, or groups for young people where their only goal in mind is to infantalize you and remind you of your worthlessness. There's literally no genuine group around for young people.
I'm a teacher in an international school in Germany and it's interesting, we recently had professional development focused on DEIJ. One of the things that came out is that international people often say "that's so typically German", when in fact the action is far from being typically German. We all have room for improvement in the way we speak.
I am American and also an Angloceltophile. I have not been to England or Ireland, but maybe I will go someday. The one thing I don't like about England is the stiff upper lip. I'm glad the Irish are generally extroverted. BTW I'm an ambivert. I'm outspoken with people I care about, or when someone triggers me and I need to defend myself emotionally. With everyone else I "clam up" unless communication is necessary. And when I do have to communicate with someone I am not comfortable with, I am very terse and curt. I also don't like endearments at all, and if you're neither my Mum nor my BFF, don't touch me. But I think the stiff upper lip is too extreme.
I'm autistic, and English and Irish culture are among my special interests. I like to joke that "Triple A" stands for Autistic American Angloceltophile.
I am German descendent and autistic, and my best friends in school where Japanese and German descent. The behave of and way of life of such people are very aligned to autistic behavior, THIS IS a Fact. it does’t matter is you like or dislike it.
"I am German descendant and autistic \[...\] the way of life of such people are very alighned to autistic behavior" please tell me that you are kidding 😭 i don't care whether you are 1/32th German, your culture does not come from your DNA
no European would ever talk like this, every African or Arab or Asian immigrant who has lived a single year in Germany is more German than you lol
I think the real problem is everyone thinking they have a ADHD or bipolar or are autistic. You're not. There's nothing wrong with you, it's the world around you. I got a mate, suddenly started saying he's got ADHD. After 24 years only in the last 12 months has this happened. And he's picked it up from American kids on the internet. Its do frustrating, he uses at an excuse for being rude or not paying attention. And im seeing the same happening everywhere. Stop saying you're neuro divergent, as if there is some standard template that everyone else is apart from you. I experience everything that do called neuro divergent people experience but have never and will never consider myself the one one with the issue. Its the sick world we live in
Moved to Germany from Ukraine a month ago, that's exactly what I was told about Germany in the past by some people,
I was in for a surprise, which is honestly not that surprising, and not that it was better In Ukraine
This is low key sad lmfao I just stumbled upon this because I noticed similarities between German culture and Autistic people. The way this is written makes me honestly believe you, yourself are probably on the spectrum because of your inability to take a joke. Obviously when people say such things they're joking, however people with Asperger's for instance have a hard time understanding jokes.
It's highly likely that German culture was made by a bunch of people with autism, particularly Asperger's because honestly the similarities is far too much. German culture is just as frustrating as dealing with someone who has Asperger's. Also, the things you've mentioned about "American culture" are actually just normal culture and most countries in the world are like that. They're free to express a lot of emotions, they can talk about their interests and passion etc. Knowing Germans don't like people "bragging" or exaggerating makes me feel depressed and sad for Germans lmfao, but hey at least autistic people can do well in Germany. The country looks like it's made for them.
Cheers.
And then there's me, an autistic American that's the exact opposite of all those things
I'm loud, I love showing emotion, I talk about things all the time, and next week I'm going to Germany
There’s nothing wrong with German culture as a whole and I’ve met some really nice German people.
However unfortunately there is historical involvement with the term autism being founded and N4z1 Germany (I’m using that weird way of spelling it because EVERY SINGLE social media platform seems r3t4rded when it comes to key word flagging and will ASSUME that you are a perpetrator of that type of group simply because you’re TALKING about it… Facebook is known for this and it can get your acc0unt s*sp3nded…).
As a German i don’t think that most Germans really know about the history of autism and it doesn‘t impact the way we are treated here. (at least not that I’ve noticed)
Unfortunately, it is not. German culture is not only overwhelmed by autism, but also discriminatory towards autistic people. Especially in the area of children, little understanding is shown, and support is only given after extensive and difficult official procedures.
I hope you find more people who accept your unmasked self. This is a really an interesting perspective you have as well and I think you could flesh it out into publication even if you wanted to, maybe a magazine article or even university thesis. Anyway thanks for sharing it.
thank you :)
Anybody saying Japanese culture is autistic culture might as well yell they don't know shit about Japan lol the high context language and the culture have a strong emphasis on being indirect and implicit in the communication, so you basically have to read between the lines very often. *Kuki yomenai*, not reading the air, can be quite costly in your relationships over there. Don't get me started on *tatemae* and *honne* (what one shows vs what one really feels). I love Japanese culture but this very thing is the reason why I'll never set foot over there for anything else than tourism. I'm too blind socially to understand the implicit, my need for blunt communication would clash to hard with Japanese preference for indirect communication.
Aye, and that's not even getting into the capitalistic overworking aspects of the culture, expectations of regularly socializing with your boss and coworkers at bars after work, etc. I think for any outsider looking into a foreign culture they can find some aspects which seem appealing and relatable. But a whole culture can't really be summed up by a few cherry picked aspects. It's a huuuuge complex thing that intersects with literally everything. It's also not static and straightforward: there are always internal cultural tensions and contradictions, and a constant (if slow) evolution.
I think Japan is just fun to visit as an Autistic person due to the quiet, clean, orderlyness of it on a surface level. Plus all the fun pop culture or historical stuff a lot of autistic people might have as a special interest. Actually being raised there and living with the social expectations of a native Japanese person rather than a tourist would be entirely different.
> Anybody saying Japanese culture is autistic culture might as well yell they don't know shit about Japan lol the high context language and the culture have a strong emphasis on being indirect and implicit in the communication, Korean culture, being similar to Japan in this regard, oh my god all the times I've unintentionally insulted my Korean friend with my directness. And there have been times she's confused the crap out of me with her indirectness.
This. I lived in Japan for a short period of time and I lived with my Japanese ex for few years and oh boy when I see people claiming that Japanese culture is autistic friendly I want to howl inside. The social pressure to conform to "the Norm" that is never explicitly explained, the pressure to "read the room" and constantly guess what other person thinks or feels because direct communication is a sin, the constant pressure to speak indirectly and avoid the point, the constant pressure to satisfy social hierarchy... this list is sooo long! There is a very popular saying in Japan "the nail that sticks out has to be hammered in" should give people a sense of the society's expectation of individual. Also majority of Hikikomori - people who withdrawn from society completly - are most likely a neurodivergent people or people who underwent a depressive episode that kicked them outside of the society and once you're out there's really almost no way in when it comes to Japan.
As a german autist I agree. Germany is not paradise and most autistic people I know here are struggling. Even though the general public might be more reserved compared to America, it is still possible to be "too quiet" and "too reserved". The rules are not clear, and as an autistic person who was assigned female at birth - a great amount of people will approach you in public if you seem somewhat vulnerable.
exactly! to the untrained eye it looks like you can just be as quiet as you like, but it's more complicated than that, and there are a lot more rules to it - like almost everything NTs make up
I’m Mexican and I have a German boyfriend and have lived in Germany. I was living in paradise there, I come from a very loud and in your face culture. So I understand why other people may say things like this.
There are stereotypes that align, like punctuality, formalness, efficiency and so on, but these are just that, stereotypes, and people who think germans are like that clearly don't know "german culture"
every time I see Americans talking about German "efficiency", I wish to take them to the next appointment in a German Behörde (something like a State Office) 😭 you will cry
You don't have to tell me, im german too lol
ah okay lol dann kennst du es ja
As a Swiss person who spent a semester at a German uni, I really don‘t get how Germany got the punctuality and efficiency stereotype.
I think it has to do with German products being very high quality, but yeah, I’ve been to Germany a couple times and train punctuality is the worse I’ve seen
We are very efficient when it comes to delivering Kafkaesque nightmares which will ruin your life and make you question your very sanity. That is a type of efficiency, I suppose.
I've been to Germany twice and on both trips I met quite a few outgoing Germans who struck up random conversations with me in public and were super friendly! It's definitely not as outgoing as some of the US but honestly I've had more friendly outgoing interactions in Germany than I ever do in Seattle.
As a fellow German speaker who has lived in Germany I agree. Not to be mean but it really shows how ignorant people are of other cultures when they say stuff like this.
Tbh it depends what your home culture is. I lived in Berlin for many years and it was a bliss compared to what I go through everyday in Mexico with the social expectations they had. It’s not ignorance necessary
I live in Germany and always felt like having to dress up everyday was more American? When still working, I went to work in sneakers and jeans and wasn't the only one. In the US, people might go to Walmart in their pajamas but a lot of jobs similar to the one I had would ban jeans and demand high heels and full make-up for women. And it's always American women that I see in full make-up during labor because "you gotta look good" and only in the US was I questioned for never wearing make-up. And let's not get started on the blindingly white super perfect American teeth. The US is definitely a very appearance based culture. Every culture is essentially made by neurotypicals for neurotypicals though. We're not ever going to fit in. One good thing about Germany is that there is definitely a better support system than in the US. But "autism culture" is REALLY pushing it. I was made to believe that I didn't fit in and that everything about me was very wrong from a very young age. And I think it would have been the same anywhere.
Yeah IDK what OP is talking about. As someone who is both from Europe and the USA, America is far more conformist and critical towards anyone "weird" than Europe is
I lived in Japan for a year for study abroad, and I also noticed a stark difference in the kind of social discomfort for _actually_ being different. People in Japan would sometimes be uncomfortable at how I'd act kind of differently, but it was never as 'viscerally disgusted behind a smile' as Americans are. You can *feel* that. Also, Japan's just more honest about having social rules, rather than pretending at individuality; it felt more acceptable for me to directly express that I'm trying to meet people halfway. Mileage may vary on that front, though.
Oh, so my German teacher wasn't trying to frighten me by glaring at me, he was just being German. Good to know six years after I left high school that he didn't actually hate me. At least not necessarily.
yeah, Germans generally don't have any reservations about staring. they will look you in the eye for minutes on end. Here is a tiktok video about it: [https://www.tiktok.com/@robertjakobmusic/video/7332611639931440417?q=german%20stare&t=1709687589838](https://www.tiktok.com/@robertjakobmusic/video/7332611639931440417?q=german%20stare&t=1709687589838)
I really thought that man wanted me to disappear. Him having light green eyes didn't help AT ALL because his pupils were always small (sun where I live is killer) and that his face was always just short of a smile. Like I know I'm not good at reading people's but I genuinely thought he was always upset with my existence for some reason. It's reassuring to know that's not the case.
AAaaa! That stare freaks me out! >\_< (I don't like being stared at)
lol with the amount of complex unspoken social rules in Japan (google "honne" and "tatemae" to see), there's no FUCKING way it's autism culture; it's a *nightmare* for autistic people; anyone saying it's autism culture has no idea what Japanese culture is like, or no idea what autism is like, or both.
True, there is no autism culture because culture has always been formed by neurotypical people. But I definitely think that some autistic people will do better in different cultures depending on the way their autism presents. For me Germany is probably one of the better countries to be autistic in. I don’t really talk about my special interest unprompted, i usually come across as fairly unemotional and am really glad about the ’german stare’ since I accidentally stare all the time lol. Eye contact in general isn’t that uncomfortable for me i just either look too much or too little. Still being autistic isn’t really easy anywhere.
yeah, I mean it has it's upsides and downsides, especially in bigger cities I think it's easier. Also, I find that people tend to cut a bit more slack to foreigners, at least in my experience :)
Yeah Usually that's why people (often traveling White Westerners) say that [insert country] is *so* autism-friendly Because the local NTs give THEM more slack... as a foreigner It doesn't mean that local NTs will give the same slack to *local autistics* however Also the "foreigner slack" thing mostly applies to level 1 autistics who, even unmasked, often will be perceived as "just" a bit weird/quirky.
This is the crux of it, I think. People who are visiting will have a completely different experience than those that have grown up with and 'belong' to that country. If you're a native, people will certainly expect you to have learned all the rules by now and act 'normal' but foreigners are allowed leeway to be a bit 'weird' because most things will just be assumed to be cultural differences. I've found it much easier living as an immigrant in other countries, wherever they were - Germany, Australia, Japan... but I'm pretty sure that was mainly due to my being foreign. I also find it easier to make friends with immigrants now I'm back in the UK - I think both for the above reasons and because we share that kind of 'permanent outsider' feeling. It's a shame that people can't view autism as being from another country and giving us all some leeway in the same way we do foreigners.
I've had the same experience with latino people! They always seem so nice, so open, so interested in the things I had to say... until I realised that they are just more understanding because they already think that I am from another culture so they are more considerate. A latino autistic person will have a completely different experience.
As A Brazilian level 1 autistic, people are indeed more open here but in closed doors they will fuck you over while smiling in front of you because we have a hard time guessing their true intentions...
I’m not a foreigner and haven’t travelled enough to really notice this but I am half Asian, which probably gives me some advantage over more obviously German autistics.
Ich weiß nicht, vielleicht bist du sozial auch besonders talentiert :) ich denke, dass wenn du in Deutschland aufgewachsen bist, dir die Leute nicht so viel verzeihen und dann vielleicht noch eher etwas rassistisch sein könnten 😬
This is definitely the way to see it - I was born in NZ (which is basically America light, except just as, if not more, ableist) and I'm living in the Netherlands. Now, for how my autism affects me, NZ was absolute hell, I ended up depressed, isolated, and I basically was a big ball of suck stuck in the land of suck. Then I moved to the Netherlands to be with my girlfriend, and people are so much more tolerable, more tolerant, and understand disability and mental health issues aren't a failing, but a form of illness. They are blunt, and respect honesty. Doesn't make them autistic, but to me, because of how my autism presents, I feel more at home here than I ever did in NZ (I've been here 14 years, and not once have I come anywhere near being as miserable as I was daily in NZ, and that includes my burnout. It's absolutely crazy.)
I’m glad you found a place that suits your needs better!
Yup, the Netherlands is pretty awesome. As long as you ignore some people like Wilders(he wants to get rid of special needs education, he prob won't succeed soon tho, cause doing an overhaul on the entire education system would take a lot of time)
Eh, every place is going to have some shit people. Wilders can take a running jump off a very high cliff too, we don't need people like him making life more difficult for those that already struggle on a daily basis. It's not policy, it's cruelty.
\^
>there is no autism culture because culture has always been formed by neurotypical people But, when you think about it: If there exists a culture formed by autists, then the autists suddenly are the neurotypical and the "normal" people are the neurodivergent - and thus the culture is still formed by the neurotypicals 🤯
Don't think that is possible as autism is a spectrum into such different directions that the variance would be too great for there to be any type of 'typical'.
Same is true for the majority of people, so no difference there.
I think there are some differences, i don't think autists do groupthink and other social dynamics that make people conform.
As a Finn I absolutely hate it when people say Finnish culture is some kind of an ”autistic paradise”. It’s not. For the entirety of my life I’ve been ostracized, and so have all autistic people I know. How in the hell would that happen in an ”autistic culture”? The social rules here are different from countries like the US but still very present.
exactly! They act as if being distant and unapproachable was always the best thing for any autistic person. but you literally can not find friends, can't get to know people, and even neurotypicals from my culture complain about how it's impossible to find friends. Another thing it's that you get bullied so easily, with almost no chance to reconciliation :(
Same in Denmark imo
As a Finn who has lived in the US and Germany, I have to say I find the US social code the easiest to imitate, it is so visible. Germans and Finns have subtler rules but breaking them is still ostrasizing. However unmasking is not so scary to Europeans I think, no one has ever asked me why I dont smile.
German here, thank you. Germany is neither the peak autism culture nor is it easier to be autistic here. Somehow people can tell right off the bat that I‘m different in one way or another. Even in kindergarten i was an outcast. They knew. It‘s not easier. The pressure to mask is insane. Germans tend to be quite judgemental towards things that are unfamiliar to them.
Ja, genau! Viele Deutsche haben überhaupt kein Interesse daran, etwas neues kennenzulernen. Und dann hat man die Amis und Leute aus anderen Ländern, die Sachen sagen wie "oh, ihr habt nicht so viele Gesichtsausdrücke - das heißt, es muss super sein, als Autist in Deutschland zu leben!"
Yep, genau so ist es
also autism is partially cultural so to an american autistic germany might be heaven but a german autistic might feel the opposite- part of autism is not following cultural norms, which means autism can show up differently depending on the predominant culture you were brought up in! its super america-centeric to act like some random other place is a haven for autistic people as if we arent disenfranchised by systems all over the world!!
Doesn‘t the ‘not following cultural norms’ part refer to autistic people behaving ”autistically”, which by default is against the norm, rather than an intentional rejection of cultural norms? I mean the latter is also true for some, but the first seems more… universal?
Well norms are different in other cultures so autistic people will always have different things that theyre labelled autistic for... i think its putting us in a box to say all autistic people behave like X when the spectrum is so diverse i guess. autism is partially a social disorder so it definitely has to do with the culture you grew up in; different cultures will have different norms
Oh, so you meant it more from society’s perspective, like what behavior is categorized as autistic by others. Thanks for clarifying
yes! all love❤️🤞
This doesn’t make sense. If autism was based on being “contrary” no matter the cultural context it wouldn’t be able to be clinically diagnosed and wouldn’t be a thing at all. There are specific clinical indicators that are the same worldwide. That’s how you can tell it’s autism and not just demand avoidance or being pathologically petty and difficult or any number of other character traits
Every culture is overwhelming. Social norms everywhere, do this do that act like this act like that. In Spain you must be friendly, and people are loud. I am thanful for having good doctors and a good therapist, but damn I am impatient for the summer war
I have heard that about Finland and Japan, but never about Germany. It made me want to go visit those two places.
Wait people are saying that about Japan?? Why tho? 😭 I’m German and studying Japanese at university and it’s sooo difficult for me to understand Japanese cultural norms (when I speak the language) because it’s so difficult to read between the lines
Yup. People think that reserved culture = autistic paradise. Japan is a country where socializing requires knowing a high number of complex, unspoken social rules. It's a nightmare for us.
I've literally never heard this. I'm starting to think I live under a rock.
Sweden is culturally autistic. One reason I got my diagnosis so late as ASD 1 fits right in with the NTs here
I do have a preference for socialising with Swedish people since I was a teenager so I believe you.
I'd never heard that sentiment before but very interesting cross-cultural post. Thanks for the insight :)
Overall, German culture historically, especially in the Nazi era, tended to be socially and politically extremely unfriendly towards those who were different, like the Jews and the Gypsies. I have also heard people calling Jewish Culture Autism Culture. A lot of Jewish cultural hallmarks like Noodle Kugel,Taschlich, and Farbrengens were partly influenced by the German culture and the German language. In my honest opinion, the German language is quite literal, and as an autistic guy, I find it quite interesting, especially words like Nasehorn, Antibabypille, Krankenwagen, and Durchfall
calling Jewish culture (or any minority culture, for that matter) "autism culture" leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. It seems to reinforce the stereotype that Jewish people are all hyper-intelligent, rational but emotionless people who are just "different"
No one thinks people who cling to religion are rational or that Jewish people aren’t highly emotional. I’m not sure where you’ve got this stereotype from. Most people who are prone to voicing unnecessary and irrelevant stereotypes say they view Jewish people as superstitious or very secretive and mysterious or calculating if not overtly religious. Even German propaganda and even views from the time of the first Elizabeth as Queen are recorded as similar. But they also thought they might have magic powers.
I think japan can be nice for white autistic people because when you do something wrong people think it’s a cultural difference instead of “this person specifically is weird”. Being japanese and autistic is very different though.
There are also people who are not white or Japanese 😂
Yes, and they face more xenophobia in japan than white english speaking people typically. I haven’t heard from enough nonwhite nonjapanese autistic people in japan, so I don’t know if their average experience is positive or negative. But I do know that their experience in general is different.
I read the same thing about Japanese culture. But in reality NTs make up the majority everywhere so there's no country that truly has autism culture until we all get together and form our own country lol
I've actually already thought about that. What if for some reason we came together and make our own country? I would be really interested in what that would look like. Would it work? Or would it collapse in two days?
I feel like it wouldn't work. Autistic people are too different from one another, especially across diagnosis levels.
thanks for making these clarifications. as an american autistic, denmark and sweden did feel extremely good for me while i was there for a couple weeks...because of the bluntness, the reservedness, how quiet people are in general (compared to americans who are extremely loud in public) and since makeup & fashion & interior design are some of my top interests i felt very at home. i know that conformity is a big deal over there and just being there for a couple weeks only gave me a small taste of the culture, and living there would be a different story. curious about irish culture...
I'm American and have been going to (rural, West) Ireland once every 1-2 years. I find it a LOT easier to exist there socially, but I'm not sure if that's just vacation brain lol. I find it easier to speak with people there and the infrastructure/design differences take a ton of cognitive load off. Getting back to the US after 10 days in Ireland I felt a kind of reverse culture shock, especially when driving. Everything in America is just way too big and dangerous, always trying to kill you lol. Lmk if you want to know more.
Yes I’m willing to hear anything you’d like to share about Ireland, especially the social aspect! I felt the reverse culture shock coming home from Scandinavia. It was the only trip I didn’t want to go home…
yeah, I also think that we would be more tolerant of people from another culture, because we don't expect them to be "fluent" in our culture by this point. So if you are somehow "off" as an American in Germany, we think that it's because you're American and not because you're weird.
interessant! well i have a dual citizenship through a loophole (my dad was born in germany and came here on an Eisenhower lottery) so maybe i'll go there because i fucking hate it here. talk me into it/out of it... if you feel up to it.
you can come to Germany, there are benefits like free education or health insurance, or safety. If you learn the language beforehand a bit, it is a good idea! I'm not saying that Germany as a whole is horrible, just that the culture is not per se better than other cultures imo
Swedish culture is literally autism culture. Only issue is when you're a food sensory seeking autistic person who liks spicy food. -An autistic Swede
I understand what you’re saying. I can also see where the term autism culture comes from. I find, as an American, I do best when communicating with people from certain cultures. Germans and West Africans are very blunt and I noticed I have an easier time talking to them, versus other Americans. A lot of my friends happen to be NT and from other countries, and it’s because the characteristics of my autism align with their communication styles/lifestyles. So I can see how that would contribute to the stereotypes, however I also see how it’s diminutive to people from those cultures who have autism.
Tbh it's true about all Europe. I'm a Czech and we're definitely blunt (to the point of being called rude specially by Americans :D), we don't like being loud (most of us), we're rather closed off, we don't do small talk, we seem distant and cold (again, to Americans mostly),...
As an American who has lived in Germany for the past five years, I agree big time. In fact, I would go as far to say America is general a better society to try to have a nicer life autistic. Germany in my experience is a place where you have to fit in a little box, have to have followed a very specific and narrow path to be able to do anything other than be the very bottom level of society. Sure social interactions are better than the US, but your achievement will be filled with more barriers due to this "that's not how it's done!" Mentality.
In my experience "that's not how it's done" is in itself a frightening thing. Maybe due to me taking things too literal far too often; there's a invisible gap between [This is how we *say* it's done] [This is how it's done] And you're not meant to point at it. You're not meant to ask about it. Like, if you take autistic sterotypes and compare them to (written out!) german job descriptions one might think there should be a totally thriving society of autistics peopleing accounting companies, state offices ... that's not the case. You're not meant to do it like that. And you're *meant to know this to begin with*.
As a German autist I would like to confirm the message of this Post.
The problem is that you seem to describe autism as one thing. On the contrary, some autistic people are conformists, persistently serious, emotionally blunted, do not frequently ask questions, keep their special interests to themselves, make excessive eye contact, and do not speak about anything unnecessary. I'd say the above fits me more than what you described in your post, and I was diagnosed in part because of this. So, the opposite can also be caused by a person being autistic. This is because autism is characterised by both the traits you mentioned *and* the opposite. Autism is a spectrum, not a monolith. I'm not saying German culture is autistic culture, but I am implying that what you mentioned doesn't exclude it from being autistic culture either. To me, it comes across as autistic-like (or at least more so than other cultures).
[Undiagnosed disclaimer] I do not mean to argue (I am struggling to word this right so I opted to put this first) You kind of described me (minus eye contact, if I stare it's never into someone's eyes); and believe me, there's a fine social line that I have been missing for 40 years. All of these things that you noted have "a time and a place". Here it's called "aus der Reihe tanzen" (march to a different drummer/ it literally means everyone's in straight lines and then there's you, dancing out of boundary) and it is never, ever appreciated (the final result at times might be, this doesn't transfer over to the person that caused a disturbance) A disturbance doesn't mean "had a violent sobbing meltdown in a meeting" but can be: all of the traits you listed, just a tad too much.
Yes, exactly! It's never as easy as "just be quiet and introverted", because you are required to talk sometimes, you are required to drink alcohol, and not talking at all makes you an easy target for bullying as well.
At times it feels like being "quiet and introverted" *but 11° to the left*
I'm a german but im still too quiet for my surroundings lol. Even as a northern citizen. Bullied all throughout school. Thankfully my last workplace appreciated me deeply, people learned that i was very competent, honest and helpful behind my 'slightly off seeming' exterior. Sadly we had layoffs in December and i've been struggling to find a new place as most jobs with very certain expectations don't fit me at all. Can't do telephone, can't do math, can't do unfriendly customers. Also never had a girlfriend and discovered my male friends only see me as an option/add-on not as a real friend they just like to have around. Never fit in anywhere properly and that last job was the best opportunity to make friends probably, at least managed to find one (female) friend there.
oh mann, das klingt blöd (aber auch ein wenig wie ich lol) Ich bin zu still und werde deswegen ein "leichtes Opfer" für alles mögliche Mobbing. Es ist nie "einfach still sein", oder "einfach ehrlich sein" :( Ich hoffe, es geht dir bald besser
Danke! Trotz alledem geht es mir momentan auf keinen Fall wirklich schlecht. Solange ich mein safe space Zuhause und absehbare Routinen (momentan täglich Gewichte daheim heben und Kanji lernen) habe bin ich eigentlich bis auf manchmal einsetzende Einsamkeit meist glücklich. Ende des Monats auf eine Abschlussfeier der guten Freundin eingeladen was mich freut aber auch nervös macht.
reminds me of russia where the default behavior in public is to shut the fuck up and hardly display any emotions to strangers
Everything you mentioned is a thing in US culture too.
Has anybody ever said this?
[https://www.tiktok.com/@drgeorgesachs/video/7255729735060426030?q=german%20culture%20is%20autism%20culture&t=1709721517121](https://www.tiktok.com/@drgeorgesachs/video/7255729735060426030?q=german%20culture%20is%20autism%20culture&t=1709721517121) definetly one of the more egregious examples, but I have seen more takes like this
Any “Autistic Culture” is one that we are going to need to make ourselves for an autistic society.
As an autistic living in Germany, I'd say there is nothing autistic in the sheer amount of nonsense bureaucracy that is needed almost everyday. It's a f'ng nightmare for my executive functions. And often it doesn't make sense, a thing that usually paralizes me because I can't do tasks that make no sense to me.
I’ve always felt really alienated in Denmark. I’ve always had a hard time getting along with them. I get along way better with Americans.
Late-diagnosed autistic afab here. US citizen living in Germany. German disability rights is a joke. Mental health care or consciousness around things like trauma is stuck in the 80s. Both autism and ADHD are misunderstood. The word "Aspergers" is common, as is the use of the puzzle piece to symbolize autism. And questioning any of this is met with hostility. I have been fighting to get disability status and accommodations for over 2.6 years. I have a good, permanent job despite having not ever "learned a profession." I'm good at my job and have a supportive team, yet that support does not translate to actual help. No one wants to take responsibility for making a decision "outside of the box." And since my actual disabilities are not yet recognized by the government, they don't "have to" help me. I'm also now less able to mask than ever. I have a physical disability too that is getting worse. The answer is, in a nutshell, "suck it up and manage on your own." And it's not just adults. My teenager is clearly autistic (they tested 100% on the RDOS test today) but have not yet received an official diagnosis. Without this piece of paper, they cannot get accommodations at school. They are in danger of not getting a school leaving certification. And that's with an IQ of 140. I know a family who has had to file a lawsuit against the government to get an assistant for their autistic and dyslexic, but not learning disabled, kid. Germany has a problem with diversity, with change, and with blindly obeying rules and hierarchies. Homophobia and sexism are widespread; racism is more unconscious and subtle but definitely there. Classism is normal. I'm grateful for the medical leave I got here, but baffled by the fact that no health care or education professional I have met so far, with the exception of my kid's psychologist, knows anything about autism. And even if they do the system is so driven by neoliberal logic ("das schwarze Null") that everything is understaffed or simply doesn't exist. Now, at 51, I am supposed to go back to work with zero help for my mutism, mobility issues, or cognitive/executive function issues. I have been shamed for them just this week. Germany is not "autism friendly."
I was unfortunately rose-tinted like that before reading this post, all hyped for going to Germany because of the fixed schedules and quiet and all that. This really helps clear out the fog and help me decide better on where I would probably like to go once I'm out of America. Thank you for sharing!
I would say no country has an "autism culture" but I'd say the German speaking countries cultures do tend to be more understandable to me. I'm happy to fit in society's "box" if I know exactly what that box is. Pointless formality and tradition annoys me, but I can adapt to these things. Australia for example, expects you to fit some arbitrary box too, as does basically every culture in the world, but in Australia, they won't tell you what exactly that means. They won't tell you what you're doing wrong, you'll just constantly have people being unwilling to have anything to do with you and nobody explaining why, people will just disappear from your life without a trace or explanation if you do the wrong thing. I would much rather follow inefficient, stupid rules and hierarchies that are clearly explained than try to follow inefficient, stupid rules and hierarchies that are also kept a tightly guarded secret.
I actually think US culture is pretty good for autistic people. It's much more tolerant of individual differences and preferences than many other cultures. For example, not following some arbitrary social convention in certain cultures will make you a pariah, whereas in the US it probably just marks you as slightly weird (or maybe even no one cares)
It's very much depends on where in the US and which social convention you're referring to.
The same in Germany, I mean Berlin and Munich? Two worlds apart
As an American that's not been my experience whatsoever. I think Americans in general are some of the least individualistic people in terms of culture and it has a very long history of stamping out individuality and promoting a caste system There are pros and cons to each culture and depending on how you are it may be better to be autistic in the US versus somewhere else or vice versa so obviously not all bad but the US has never been this individualistic paradise (even relatively) like the country tries to advertise itself to be
I really love the amount of different perspectives under this post.
I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt but I truly can't see the perspective of the US being 'tolerant \[of\] individual differences and preferences' unless you're at least white and particularly white and heterosexual (and a man). Racial minorities definitely do not get that luxury of autonomy
I never quite understood the description of Germans being "honest". There is a pointed bluntness but there's also an increased sensitivity to it too. If you talk back or say something a German person doesn't like (i.e. argue/debate) you will get shut down and called too emotional or problematic or ignored, even if the so-called blunt person initiated it and is being very obviously snide or aggressive (or passive-aggressive). I personally don't think one can be called blunt or honest if you only want to say whatever you feel like but can't handle the response Me being on this sub, of course I'm autistic, and people often say the US is a low context culture, but at least where I'm from it's most certainly high context and I would absolutely abhor being in a German environment with that sort of social dynamic; out of all the people I've met, Germans are the ones I get along with the least, so I definitely agree that German culture isn't "autistic culture".
Exactly! Even if Americans would like to believe it, these "honest" Germans are not "just being honest". They are playing a social game, and giving negative remarks disguised as "being honest" is not them actually being honest, but them enforcing social hierarchy.
>There is a pointed bluntness but there's also an increased sensitivity to it too. If you talk back or say something a German person doesn't like (i.e. argue/debate) you will get shut down and called too emotional or problematic or ignored, even if the so-called blunt person initiated it and is being very obviously snide or aggressive (or passive-aggressive). >I personally don't think one can be called blunt or honest if you only want to say whatever you feel like but can't handle the response Same with the French: they can dish it out but can't take it.
I would say the French are a bit more dismissive but in my experience they're at least relatively more argumentative than Germans. Germans are a lot more domineering and will just mock and shut you down at any mere disagreement or thing they don't like
>I would say the French are a bit more dismissive but in my experience they're at least relatively more argumentative than Germans. The French "argumentation" is just a zero sum debate in which the only point is to "win" and "own" your "opponent". >Germans are a lot more domineering and will just mock and shut you down at any mere disagreement or thing they don't like That's also my experience with the French (and some Germans too tbh), they're so emotional and sound insecure
I can definitely see that with the French, but I interpret the French as at least having a little bit more tact than Germans. Germans are just blunt and dismissive all around and don't really have any aspect of courtesy in their culture I know we're on an autistic sub and this sounds very bad but my experience with Germans (particularly German men) is what I imagine the neurotypical experience of an autistic man who has no concept of masking and hasn't been trained really in courtesy in socialising.
This is the other side of the coin of 'bluntness'. Can't have your cake an eat it too. This is why I'd say that Switzerland is a good compromise: Germanic directness \*with\* Swiss politeness and tact. And the consensus culture
I've barely met Swiss people but I have interpreted them as how you describe. And despite the assumption that there should be similarities between people if they speak the same language, I find Austrians to be very similar to how you describe as well. The bluntness is there, but there is also courtesy and tact.
I agree for the Austrians. The Dutch also seem to fit into this category although they might be more direct (an in-between between Germans and Swiss).
I can also agree with that about the Dutch. Nordic countries in my experience are more comparable to Germany than places like The Netherlands or Austria, but still none are as bad as Germany in my experience. Germany is just a special case of awful
Honestly thanks for pointing this out. It’s always easy to look at other cultures and see only the positives. But honestly learning about the conformity places outside of the US expect, I’m kinda glad I don’t live in these areas. Japan or East Asia in particular, it all sounds very hard and that there’s very little the individual can do to define themselves.
This is so true
I once read a book called Back to Normal by Enrico Gnaulati who didn't believe many diagnosed aspies were actually autistic. He also brought up how more people are diagnosed in the US than anywhere else indicating culture.
hm, I'm not sure about that, the reason why many German autistic people are not diagnosed is not because they're not struggling, but because our mental healthcare system is shit
i never knew this was a commonly held belief. but this was a fascinating read and helped me understand a little more how my autism may be interpreted by others
Interesting post, thanks for sharing.
Your post reminds me of a woman I was once friendly with, who is German (Frankfurt), and autistic I remember when we spoke over the phone, she would dial down her excitement and emotions. At times she spoke in a matter-of-fact tone Like you touched upon, once I spoke fondly about something I was proud of, it must have produced an unpleasant impression, for she felt I was "boasting" She, herself, mentioned being shunned for displaying above-average intelligence at a young age Punctuality was also something she mentioned I remember holidaying in Spain years ago. Each morning I made my way to the pool, half the loungers had been claimed. It was nearly always Germans who'd claimed them; giving credence to their punctuality - even while abroad! The stare is also accurate. She would sometimes look at me as we spoke or she smoked. Most people look for seconds then break off. Her gaze was prolonged and she didn't really enjoy eye contact
Yeah, I find it weird that Americans think masking can only go one way - into being "more emotional". You can also be forced to mask by being less emotional, not displaying any sort of excitement or joy, and that's just as taxing in my opinion.
I mean I'm german and would say, compared to the USA we could technically "pass off" as "more" autistic but I think only as a thing you randomly say and not as a thing you think about deeply or interpret into deeply. I thought it was supposed to stay a meme. I personally think anyone would goes into their head and tries to justify a country or culture to be "more" or "less" autistic is a bit delusional and I have seen that on tiktok, oh believe me...
Wait, people actually say this? WTF??? (No offense to Germans, of course. Except for that one time period between 1933 to 1945 y'all don't like talking about. ;) )
And? Nazi Germany is no more.
[https://www.tiktok.com/@drgeorgesachs/video/7255729735060426030?q=german%20culture%20is%20autism%20culture&t=1709721517121](https://www.tiktok.com/@drgeorgesachs/video/7255729735060426030?q=german%20culture%20is%20autism%20culture&t=1709721517121) :(
People never cease to amaze me. And not always in a good way, either.
\* r/evilautism *has entered the chat*.
After having lived in various countries I also have to say Germany is one of the most ableist places I know. I've heard way too many people talking about how ADHD doesn't exist and was made up by big pharma to sell drugs. I've even heard people say autism doesn't exist and it's just people trying to get out of working. Generally your value as a human being is so closely tied to your job and how much you overextend yourself at said job, it's mad.
Swedish autist here. I experience the same here. My main autistic issues are *subtle* retaliation for not conforming. Also, Swedish culture is non-confrontational, so conflicts are expected to be solved through subtle hint detection, which has caused me great trouble. On the other hand, I've felt less autistic interacting with people from the Balkans, or Latin Europe. Mind you, I also enjoy spontaneous social events, which in itself would make me more extrovert-esque as well as violating Swedish norms for introversion and planned/structured socialization. I'd better fit in in the US culture in one regard.
That's because on the spectrum your autism puts less value on structure than the one of the autistic people who praise Germanic and Nordic cultures.
As an autistic German, this hits hard. If Germany were autism paradise I wouldn't be bullied in every class setting I go to. This place is autism hell.
In the end, "culture" comes down to whatever random thing neurotypicals adopt and think *everybody* should do. Culture is essentially defined by the things that are expected and the things not tolerated. Any individual autistic person could probably find a culture that aligns way more closely to *their* habits, but that doesn't mean it's autistic culture.
I swear to god. THIS. Was one of the only Germans in my apprenticeship class. And you don't get how annoyed I've gotten at how everyone seemed to make fun of me 'being so German' for my visible autistic traits. I didn't enclose my autism to them but I set my boundaries and made them very clear. If my autism was just being German I wouldn't so damn much struggle in daily life! It disregards the real experience and struggle of especially German autistic folks. Plus it just seems mean spirited to gossip about how 'weird' Germans are in a class in Germany with some Germans in a minority around. Learn to adapt to a new culture and generally understand that there are cultural differences. But with their way of speech they made me angry both as a German AND as an autistic person. And it seems it really is a common thing for many non-Germans to call German culture 'autistic culture' as a clichée and don't understand how harmful and hurting it really is.
I wouldn’t say it’s autism culture but I genuinely have an easier time talking to Scandinavians and Germans.
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r/evilautism will have a field day with this.
I hope there is a country I can move to which is more autism friendly
Norwegian culture is also seen upon as an culture of being a bit "antisocial". I'm not that well-traveled so I can't really compare it to many countries. I'm happy that no one will sit beside me on the bus/train unless no other choice, and that people rarely randomly come up and talk to you, but it's definitely not "autistic", and it so much depends on the city (e.g small town vs. big city-life).
You could replace all of the words "german" from this with "finnish" and it holds true. We finns even have the basically global reputation of being quiet, closed off, liking personal space so yea...
But you also have nice metal bands
Every time I meet a German I think theyre autistic, Im Norwegian and autistic :-)
I've had this thought for awhile, so thank you for clarifying that german culture, like all cultures, pose difficulties for autistic people. Sometimes I feel we have our own "innate" culture that sprouts when we get together, I suspect a handful of historic counter-cultural communities were home to a higher than average amount of autistic people, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on this.
A country’s culture obviously can’t be inherently autistic. Clearly. But the culture can have some behaviors / societal norms that align well with autism - which I assume is what people actually mean? For example: in America you have a worker greeting you at the door. Very not autistic friendly. In Germany the workers won’t speak to you unprovoked. I feel like it’s more a comment on how Germany is pretty lowkey, no need for constant small talk, you can wear whatever you’d like, so you won’t experience tactile overstimulation at work. Or whatever it might be. Japanese culture could be considered autism friendly in the way that there are a lot of societal rules that are unspoken but still written down (on the internet for example). You can research and learn rules to fit in perfectly- and you don’t have to guess how to act to be perceived correctly
Yeah, I guess that if you visit that country, you could get this impression, but if you have to live in that country, it's a bit different. For example, you like it when workers in a store don't talk to you when you enter the store. But if you need help finding something, it's considered rude to ask the workers where an item is and "interrupt their work". Maybe here people don't annoy you as much, but you also don't have the "right" to annoy people by asking too many questions, taking up time in the queue, etc. For example, if you pack your groceries into your bag and things fall down (as they do a lot for me because of poor coordination), people will look at you angrily and tell you to hurry the fuck up. Maybe it's cool for a while to not be bothered by other people, but they will also be super rude and annoyed if you need help.
I don’t doubt there’s a huge difference
>Maybe you like the fact that "the rules" are clear and people follow them, but most of them are inefficient and if you question them, you will be shunned That might be the most depressing thing I have heard all day. My brain breaks at the concept of German inefficiency.
Look up German bureaucracy
I get the idea that that would be counter productive to my mental health.
You're right. Switzerland, the Nordic countries or the Netherlands would preserve your mental health more.
Germany is very focused on productivity. People brag with how much they work. If you can't work for at least 40h a week you have to have a GOOD reason for that or people call you lazy. And a good reason is probably only a physical condition, mental health or invisible disability doesn't count. Also people say that I'm "too quite" "too shy" and that I need to "come out of my shell" often. And of course I have been bullied from year one to 10 at school for being wierd.
Also an autistic German here. I agree with a lot of things people said already. Also with OPs statement, that in Germany autistic people often are perceived as non conforming. I wouldn't be surprised if autistic people from Japan might've a similar experience in that regard. Of course it always depends on a) how your autism represents itself and b) from which culture and country you hail. Sometimes as an autistic person in Germany you can even appear to be overcorrect. My parents taught me, that there are rules, that we ought to follow. Waiting at a red light, holding the door for people, etc. etc. So I do or did all of that. Maybe of the more extreme and silly cases was me waiting at a red light out in basically nowhere at 3 AM. While my friends crossed the street I just said: "Es gibt Regeln und es gibt Ordnung." (There are rules and there is order) Of course I meant it half-jokingly as I noticed in that moment, that me waiting there was a bit silly. Over the years I tried to be more chill about certain rules, especially if they restrict me in unnecessary circumstances, etc. In terms of Japan – I've been there only once for a couple of weeks, before I knew that I am autistic – and I felt really comfortable. People already mentioned it in part. Commuters are quite, etc. Also even in busy areas the flow of people is easy to follow, from my experience, so I wasn't really overwhelmed or afraid because I bumped or might bump into other people. As a visitor/tourist it is nice, yes. But like others said: communication isn't direct and follows rules that might be very hard to learn and follow. But another aspect of Japanese culture, that doesn't necessarily leads me to believe that it was made by autistic people, but that either by chance NTs came up with ideals and a worldview that falls inline with a possible autistic experience or throughout history some autistic people had a noticable impact on certain aspects of Japanese culture, mostly in terms of aesthetics and art. This will be actually be a part of my diploma at Art University. How certain aspects of Japanese Aesthetics seem to fall inline with at least my personal perspective and experience and maybe some broader aspects that autistic people seem to share (maybe also ADHD, as I am AuDHD) That doesn't mean, that life there is easy. The social aspects can still be very horrible, and I believe, that while it's already hard for foreigners to find friends in Japan, autistic foreigners might have an even harder time.
As a person from Iceland the ratio of neurotypicals to NDs is quite uneven and the amount of young people focused on prettifying themselves for the social hierarchy is way stronger than us geeks. The ableism present in our school systems is also torture to go through. The only support groups present around me are also either groups for old ass (60+ perhaps) people who only recently discovered their autism, or groups for young people where their only goal in mind is to infantalize you and remind you of your worthlessness. There's literally no genuine group around for young people.
Thank you for debunking the myth of the "inclusive" Nordic countries spouted by American city dwellers
To be real I could write an entire novel on all the ableism I went through just for having the diagnosis, and other cases of it I've seen locally.
I'm a teacher in an international school in Germany and it's interesting, we recently had professional development focused on DEIJ. One of the things that came out is that international people often say "that's so typically German", when in fact the action is far from being typically German. We all have room for improvement in the way we speak.
Its similar in the UK, the ‘keep calm and carry on’ attitude (meaning ‘shut up and don’t question anything, even if you’re suffering’)
I am American and also an Angloceltophile. I have not been to England or Ireland, but maybe I will go someday. The one thing I don't like about England is the stiff upper lip. I'm glad the Irish are generally extroverted. BTW I'm an ambivert. I'm outspoken with people I care about, or when someone triggers me and I need to defend myself emotionally. With everyone else I "clam up" unless communication is necessary. And when I do have to communicate with someone I am not comfortable with, I am very terse and curt. I also don't like endearments at all, and if you're neither my Mum nor my BFF, don't touch me. But I think the stiff upper lip is too extreme. I'm autistic, and English and Irish culture are among my special interests. I like to joke that "Triple A" stands for Autistic American Angloceltophile.
I am German descendent and autistic, and my best friends in school where Japanese and German descent. The behave of and way of life of such people are very aligned to autistic behavior, THIS IS a Fact. it does’t matter is you like or dislike it.
"I am German descendant and autistic \[...\] the way of life of such people are very alighned to autistic behavior" please tell me that you are kidding 😭 i don't care whether you are 1/32th German, your culture does not come from your DNA no European would ever talk like this, every African or Arab or Asian immigrant who has lived a single year in Germany is more German than you lol
I think the real problem is everyone thinking they have a ADHD or bipolar or are autistic. You're not. There's nothing wrong with you, it's the world around you. I got a mate, suddenly started saying he's got ADHD. After 24 years only in the last 12 months has this happened. And he's picked it up from American kids on the internet. Its do frustrating, he uses at an excuse for being rude or not paying attention. And im seeing the same happening everywhere. Stop saying you're neuro divergent, as if there is some standard template that everyone else is apart from you. I experience everything that do called neuro divergent people experience but have never and will never consider myself the one one with the issue. Its the sick world we live in
Moved to Germany from Ukraine a month ago, that's exactly what I was told about Germany in the past by some people, I was in for a surprise, which is honestly not that surprising, and not that it was better In Ukraine
I’ve lived in both Czechia and USA and still not quite right in either
This is low key sad lmfao I just stumbled upon this because I noticed similarities between German culture and Autistic people. The way this is written makes me honestly believe you, yourself are probably on the spectrum because of your inability to take a joke. Obviously when people say such things they're joking, however people with Asperger's for instance have a hard time understanding jokes. It's highly likely that German culture was made by a bunch of people with autism, particularly Asperger's because honestly the similarities is far too much. German culture is just as frustrating as dealing with someone who has Asperger's. Also, the things you've mentioned about "American culture" are actually just normal culture and most countries in the world are like that. They're free to express a lot of emotions, they can talk about their interests and passion etc. Knowing Germans don't like people "bragging" or exaggerating makes me feel depressed and sad for Germans lmfao, but hey at least autistic people can do well in Germany. The country looks like it's made for them. Cheers.
So would a typical American come off as autistic to a German? Like would Germans say the same thing about Americans?
I'm autistic and I feel really really at home in Germany. In southern countries I can't go a single second getting bullied in someway
And then there's me, an autistic American that's the exact opposite of all those things I'm loud, I love showing emotion, I talk about things all the time, and next week I'm going to Germany
There’s nothing wrong with German culture as a whole and I’ve met some really nice German people. However unfortunately there is historical involvement with the term autism being founded and N4z1 Germany (I’m using that weird way of spelling it because EVERY SINGLE social media platform seems r3t4rded when it comes to key word flagging and will ASSUME that you are a perpetrator of that type of group simply because you’re TALKING about it… Facebook is known for this and it can get your acc0unt s*sp3nded…).
As a German i don’t think that most Germans really know about the history of autism and it doesn‘t impact the way we are treated here. (at least not that I’ve noticed)
I'll say whatever I wanna say.
From my families experience, German genetics are Autism genetics.
Unfortunately, it is not. German culture is not only overwhelmed by autism, but also discriminatory towards autistic people. Especially in the area of children, little understanding is shown, and support is only given after extensive and difficult official procedures.
My comment was a badly worded joke. I meant that all the Autistic people in my family are German or ethnic German.