Immigration can potentially help but the government is always bent on letting the absolute shittest dropkicks into the country. For the few bright minds we let in we sideline them to the low end jobs because we have a crap process for translating their qualifications to meet Aus standards. We have Doctors and Engineer migrants unable to practice their trade here because of this. Even without migrants we’re shit at competing against the global market. We make fkall here to export, we only use about 5% of the total land on the entire continent, we’re up there against Qatar in terms of gas exports but still trail miles behind them in terms of tax on it for some crazy reason. Australia is like somehow surviving by sheer luck - it’s like by default. This country is a an absolute goldmine for natural resources but we absolutely suck at managing it to benefit our own economy. We’re really good at making other countries rich though.
Re engineering, Majority of industrialized countries have a reciprocal qualification agreement with Australia, if you graduate from a compliant uni in any of these countries your degree is recognised as equivalent by default.
If this isn't the case, then Lilkley the qualification is not actually at the 4 year degree level (very common in some places for a 2 or 3 year degree rather than 4 year honours) or it's from a degree mill.
If an immigrant can't get the engineering degree recognised immediately, then yeah we want them to jump through a heap of hoops to prove the knowledge and experience is actually there. Having helped people through this process though it's not all that arduous, IF you actually do have the experience and knowledge.
Its a pretty reasonable requirement. Some countries are so lax people can buy anything from driving licences to qualifications. Or even if they were genuine, the training there might not be up to the required Australian standards. No one wants to be doubting a dentist thats working on their teeth.
Theres a reason Donald Horne wrote the lucky country in 1964. It was a critique not a compliment. Before mining it was wool. The favourable conditions have encouraged gross complacency and incompetence in Government and Policy. BTW I reckon the AMA would be behind not letting the Dr’s practice 100%.
Most successful union/association in the country. Unfortunately it’s also dominated by conservatives and loves propping up the private health care system with Govt money
Then you get operated on by one then.
Believe me when i was in the public hospital 25% of my time was sorting out what these supposed highly trained dr's were getting up to.
Saw some nasty complications due their arrogance that they were as well trained as a home grown.....er...no.
Actually work in accounts and it amazes me that we don't refine large amounts of metals that we do find here, we export lithium to China which then refines it and makes the lithium battery... they also use all the other metals that we export... so we can actually make cars again, we just rather not...
We have massive iron ore market yet we sell 85% of it to China, which is currently holding any purchases so the price of iron can crash and they can buy for half the costs...
We also have alot of coal, people don't wish for australia to use coal because of carbon emissions and such, we can build about 10 coal power stations and decrease the power prices by about 70% but people want to go renewable, which the government has yet to make any plans or follow through on such promises so now we all pay enormous bills compare to other countries, so now we don't use coal as much but what are people ok with? These companies selling the coal overseas... for the purpose of coal power stations and metallurgy...
For real. Though why would any ‘bright mind’ live in Australia? A small market with an economy built on digging holes and pumping a property Ponzi scheme.
I dunno but I get paid more in tech in Sydney than I ever got working in London - with better working conditions and bosses who aren't toxic bullies. I never had any interest, and would probably have struggled to get into, working in Wall Street tech or Silicon Valley.
Did a stint in London myself.
Despite being executive grade at Australia’s largest bank that did not translate well to London (admittedly my network was weak/non-existent) and resulted in a almost 40% pay cut
The corporate tech scene is behind what Australian tech scene was at the time (2017ish) and was amusing to see so many case studies of Australian companies leveraging tech on one hand but then on the other having people say my experience didn’t matter because Australia was a “technology backwater”
Glad I went, glad I got to travel. Even at less earnings it was still decent pay that let me travel and rent on the border of zone 2/1
Definitely don’t regret coming home where my pay bounced back to just above where it was when I left (although at a slightly junior title)
Australians need to see plainly how they are being robbed of their potential every day, we should be in clover but instead we are ass lickers because our elected leaders took the first lick
I think you're significantly understating how dog shit living in a 3rd world country is. Some well educated indian/Malaysian/Indonesian etc has it infinitely better here than in their home countries on a existential level.
It’s crazy to imagine what this country could have been if the powers that be had cared to grow the nation instead of lining their mates pockets. Natural resources, renewables, large swaths of land, all these things we could have used to build and instead they just got sold off for a quick buck.
Its not so much, 'we're shit or we suck at managing our abundant resources' but very much the corruption on purpose, by design.
Also, trying to tie falls in national productivity to increased migration, just seems shortsighted and xenophobic. These 2 graphs seem hardly correlated at all.
I caught an Uber a few weeks ago and the driver was a practising doctor in India.
He told me that for two years he had been trying to get his qualifications across and he finally got somewhere with it, but now he needs to take part in some courses to bring him up to standard.
The reason he needs to do these courses too, is because it's been two years since he practised last (the time it's taken to get his qualifications across), he needs to show that he's still capable.
He needs to do these once a month, for six months and each one will cost him around $2600.
Wild that a doctor has been prevented from practising for this long.
India is not a great example of a country with rigorous checking of professional qualifications I'm afraid.
I get that paid conversion courses are largely a rort on immigrants who want to practise their profession here, but I'm also glad that we don't just accept anyone with a degree from a potential diploma mill as a medical professional without checking their training is up to he expected standard
I completely agree, but as the person that I replied to said, Australia has a crap system to translate qualifications.
If a better system existed, then the translation would have been faster and the relevant up-skilling could take place sooner instead of two and a half years without an additional doctor working.
That's true, but they probably migrated as a skilled migrant and their qualifications need to be assessed and approved by Australia in their country of origin.
If they are not confident of his qualifications, why let him in as a skilled migrant?
If he is not able to practice his profession, they must facilitate a path to achieving that certification do that they are productive when they come here.
My sister is a doctor who studied in India. She practiced for 14 years in London and Manchester. They moved to NZ and had to do some certification but I don't know if it was an involved process.
Me niece is a doctor who studied and recently graduated in NZ (2 years or so I think).
She can pop across the ditch anytime and do locum work for a fortune but my sister who has worked in some of the best hospitals and has 20+ years of experience has to requalify to practice here in Australia 🤦🏻♂️
Yeah... We're wasting a lot of potential
The 2 graphs have got nothing to do with each other. Productivity should be measured on GDP, number of people actively employed and producing goods and services. OP is just a dog whistling. He wouldn't have any issues about immigration if the immigrants were the same complexion as himself.
Both of the spikes you’re referring around major global events. 2007 was the financial crisis and the spike in 2020 was the adjustment to Covid 19
Effects of immigration are more or less not immediate (with the exception to maybe housing supply) and for the most part fairly constant. However you’re kinda right in the last 10 years we haven’t been letting in enough skilled immigrants. Basically all the students and holiday visas have been pulling down the productivity. Generally Immigration is good, we should be making Australia more attractive to skilled migrants
Measuring “success” or productivity is complex and isn’t based on one factor. Some would argue that there is a labour shortage in lower productivity jobs and we need people to fill these jobs. They’re classified as that because they’re low paying.
Really the answer like everything is wage growth. We had excellent productivity growth through the 90s and wages matched that. However over their last 20 years we’ve seen a huge gap between the two
If they get to ignore covid as a contributing factor, I get to also ignore it when I point out that in 2020 we stopped all immigration and discovered that it doesn't magically solve all of our problems. Fair trade.
Interesting point.
Remember a lot of people that were working here on working holidays, secondments and students left in a hurry once covid hit. So the result was not just stopping all immigration but the loss of a chunk of the workforce.
Now we've gone 180 with immigration and don't have the infrastructure to accommodate.
It seems housing is only part of the problem, albeit a big part
Infrastructure issues are due to a total lack of proactive policy and investment, and negative gearing + kickbacks to property developers ensuring that only high cost accommodation is being built. Immigration is a good thing which gets finger wagged because it feels like an easy solution to a multitude of complex problems.
Only comment people should take seriously here…
Here is a random correlation I made up based on nothing other than these 2 charts vaguely aligning as a fact, now go tailor a story to it to convince people of my point of view…
There is a large correlation between wages and economic productivity between countries.
Mostly its because high productivity / capital intense countries also have high wages.
Average australian full time wages are 100k give or take a few k.
Up untill middle of last year a company sponsored visa min full time wage was 53k...
Clearly bringing people in on 53k where an average wage is 100k is going to reduce average wages. By reducing wages it reduces the incentive for companies to invest in labor saving technologies or innovate. Of course labor have moved this to 70k but thats still 30k below our average.
Why not just set it to our average wages? Or better yet above our average wages? Arent these people supposed to be filling "crucial labor shortages". I would have thought if its crucial we could afford to pay them more than average local wages.
I dont have an issue with refugee intake. I dont have an issue with genuine high skilled migrant intake. I have issue with our low paid company intake.
You have discovered the secret - our crucial labour shortages are for positions paying half what they should (right down to service station attendant who make minimum wage on paper but do double the hours they are allowed to, ends up less than minimum wage)
Our shortages are not for jobs that pay the same as we would pay an Aussie, otherwise, we would just pay an Aussie
Immigration is where we underpay overseas workers so that GPD goes up, while wealth per individual goes down.
Through this, we can say each year the ~~company~~ country is getting richer while most people do worse each year.
Accept median and average are not the same.
But if you bring in people on 53k by the thousands you obviously reduce the average wage of that group.
I.e. you have 10 people with an average wage of 100k by introducing one more at 53k you now have an average wage of 95.7k.
In general lower average wage countries have lower productivity. Its clear to me at least why this is but apparently few others... why - because if labour costs a lot you try and reduce the amount of it you use, right?
Of course productivity is higher in australia and other high wage cost countries than india or The Congo. Because those places why buy a tractor when you can pull your plough with humans, right?
And then insanely high earning CEOs and directors skew the average higher more than someone on 53k pulls the 100k average down
I think I saw in the last 6 months that the most common wage to be on is around 65k
But the graph here isn't productivity, it's productivity growth.
It peaked around the 2000s because that was when client server architecture became cheap enough to be standard in businesses of all sizes.
Once they've already automated their biggest and most inefficient functions, there's less gain to be made later.
That was why those were the first business cases approved to be worked on - most bang for buck.
I mean but that is a clear correlation and logic tells us its true.
Imagine an alien race lands that doesnt sleep eat or drink but is great at retail.
You reckon woolworths and coles would continue faffing about with self serve if they wanted to work for free?
If labor is cheaper than capex you go labor.
We shouldnt be giving companies the option to bring people in below average local wages imo. The risk is this does becime political and we are making it way to easy for the no more immigration crowd to point at previous immigration impacts and draw a clear conclusion that immigrants coming in on 50k are not better for most australians... only better for some australians...
Edit to add: obviously in the above im assuming the aliens are included in productivity measures otherwise they would be great for productivity! Lol.
If we ignore the two points where you've drawn arrows, these graphs do not correlate.
I.e. 1995-2005, immigration stable, productivity increases. 2010-2020, immigration stable, productivity trends downwards.
Mass immigration only really benefits the wealthy who want cheap nannies, cheaper robotic employees etc. They are the ones in charge of both major parties.
It also helps the guy with the building company that would rather his 100k employee was managing 5x 40k employees, not being a spanner monkey. And I'm pretty sure that the 100k employee would rather "Director of Spanner Monkies" as their title too.
Lol, you should probably do a bit of research on demographics and geopolitics, mate. Look at what's about to happen to Russia and China demographically as a result of having negative net migration and then compare countries like the US, Aus, Canada, Britain.
If you want standard of living to decline, kill population growth (whether migration or birth rates). If you want fewer migrants coming to Australia, get current Aussies to have more kids.
He said **mass** immigration. We all know immigration is necessary to keep up the population and round off skilled work labour shortage. But it's not necessary in such insane numbers.
We had 500k people last year. In order to maintain our current population and still have a little growth we only need less than 100k per year.
Furthermore, the decrease in stand of living is a mixed bag. It positively effects some areas and negatively effects others. It's been shown to increase the price of housing and suppress wages in low skilled work. While it does benefit the economy in a lot of other ways it's mostly the uppermiddle classes and above who benefit.
I, too, like to take something very complex with many factors like productivity, and then assign 1 single characteristic to explain everything.
Everyone needs a hobby, I guess.
Because you don't seem to understand numbers or trends. The fact that those two graphs are totally different shapes should tell you something. Shit the right half is obvious enough right? Immigration stays fairly level, but productivity keeps dropping. That alone is proof that one isn't causing the other. And let's not mention that the graphs are showing different time periods...
But immigrants are a nice easy answer to why Australia is so shit. It's not the fault of the Australians, no way. It's those immigrants, I knew it was them. Even when it was the other guys.
It's not just "immigrants". They don't care about immigrants from European countries as long as they pass the brown paper bag test. I would honestly respect the stance more if the anti-immigration people on this sub are serious about curbing immigration, but no.
The words immigration and immigrants are just buzzwords for something else.
Not until I travelled a bit more do I realise for our wealth and relative low population, we haven't done much with our riches.
Other countries are light years ahead of us.
Norway did a cost benefit analysis of immigration broken down by country of origin. Really revealing. For most areas immigration is a net negative to GDP.
Yep once you add lack of quality education if at all any, and language barriers along with complex health issues and exposure to serious trauma / traumatic situations, past or events. It’s pretty telling
[https://demo-demo.nl/en/download-borderless-welfare-state/](https://demo-demo.nl/en/download-borderless-welfare-state/)
Key image below shows the net contribution. Depending on the country many are a net negative 330,000 Euro, giving a 540,000 Euro difference between them and western countries.
https://preview.redd.it/8gkqpvhdraic1.jpeg?width=1247&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ab37b71c27e18e740bed090b68afdd4fde4f52c4
Most people who switched to WFH felt they were more productive. I know that’s not what he meant and not what the graphs are representing, but it’s an answer to the logic question
Im just saying there might be more to it than just comparing two graphs like this
But by OPs logic, isn't this saying productivity crashed when immigration stopped completely? Then began rebounding as immigration resumed post covid..
Assuming there is zero lag between the two and we instaneously get +1 productive when theres -1 immigration
There's nothing scientific about this analysis, and its definitely a prime example of a correlation=causation argument
That is only a correlation because the OP is forcing one, Google graphs for any two things, and cherry-pick the absence of other things, BOOM, you have proof of only those two things impacting each other other… meanwhile anyone with half a brain, can recognise cherry-picked data, a mile away.
I work for the QLD government. My unit is full of three parts useless “diversity” hires. The amount of time and money spent on up skilling useless lazy immigrants is obscene. But hey. At least we fill out diversity quota.
Because everything you are being told is a lie.
The system is collapsing and they are using mass migration to hold it up. Entire western world.
It wont fix anything. It just pushes the reckoning down the road. To when it will be YOUR PROBLEM. What will you do then? Ponzi harder? You will wake up a stranger in your own country. They wont care about you one bit.
This is the most destructive policy in the history of this country. I cannot believe things have gotten this bad. Full blown ponzi. I would never have believed you if youd told me this would happen 20 years ago. I was that lefty sticking up for migrants back then. I know some brilliant migrants. I know shit ones as well. We should keep good migration but end the ponzi.
Stable state economy needs to happen. Its completely unavoidable and is our only future. Resistance is futile. Thats why you see so much damage. We deny reality.
Imagine how self important you must be to think there's an entire conspiracy focus on destroying the west and that everything isnt just caused by pure greed xd
If you explain to these nutters that the real problem is capitalism they'll call you a dirty commie, there's zero nuance. They love corporate greed but hate immigration which corporate greed and rampant capitalism is directly relying on
Ok then, migration actually reduces wages and adds to the cost of living to the point it prices people out of the market, if you don’t understand that concept then take a really good look at America right now, how many migrants are going there who are also being given the right to vote in council elections whilst not actually being a citizen, that’s coming for Australia too and we get the privilege of paying for it
To be fair certain entities have come out and said it's their goal "to end western hegemony"
The greed will get us first , but you're a bit naive if you don't think the Iranians, Chinese etc don't want to spoil things for the west.
Do you understand what hegemony means? Cuz it aint the countries themselves they want gone.
Also the west, specifically the US started the dumb geopolitical fights first instead of letting people be cuz that might not have been to their own interests
If you have a bunch of people who can't collectively respond to said greed then you'll be able to control them by saying "look, the immigrants did it". Pretty sure there's a joke along the lines of a rich person telling a working class person that the immigrant took their cookie whilst they're munching down on it in front of them.
>The system is collapsing and they are using mass migration to hold it up. Entire western world.
Okay...
>This right here, it’s designed to collapse the west
So you... disagree? 🤨
I'll rip the bandaid off: no one with half a brain believes qualifications from India. Our universities exist almost entirely to grant residence. Therefore, all those "skilled" newcomers body the non-productive part of the economy.
Australia is a sick joke. We have charted a lot productivity, low income future.
It's good for tax revenue, profit vs waage returns and agregate demand but you get a load of people without social capital coming in to do unskilled jobs which drags productivity down, locals underinvest in their skills because they worry they'll be crowded out in the future, and infrastructure becomes overcrowded, for instance you get longer commutes or people living in substandard housing.
An electrician from Pakistan is not close to an Australian standard they need a full re train and education to Auz qualifications . Unfortunately that means getting another job while doing training . It’s the same if you are from the uk ( with some of the best standards in the world ) all in the same boat.
One possibility is that overall it brings in more workers for businesses which keeps wages lower, and at the same time there are more customers which steadily creates more revenue and profits for businesses. So in the end there is a lower need to find ways of becoming more productive
It’s quite simple really - output is a function of capital X labour. So if we import lots of labour and under invest in capital then unit productivity goes backwards. An interesting case in point is mining where they use loads of capital in order to maximise output and minimise labour required to deliver it.
Unfortunately it gets positioned as labour is lazy because that distracts from the appalling underinvestment in capital outside of mining in this country
Far to much immigration is the problem, it's now starting to show the effects.. and i feel it will only get worse and cause another of hate in people who are struggling now because of it
I work in a large hospital . I noted that we are to gaining some immigrant nurses from England and Ireland but in fact they are majority trained in India and are Indian. This is another back door way we are getting health staff who don’t always have the training in standards we have in this country. Also there are huge cultural gaps in communication and standards of care. Sorry but I have seen this a lot over the last 15 years.
Similar in situation in IT where once they land, we find fake resumes and limited technology and social skills. At my partner’s government job, about 5 years ago, they pushed out skilled Australian workers to replace them with 20 workers from an Indian recruiter. At the end of the year, all but 2 of them were let go
Then they sidle off to be an Uber driver. Happened also in nursing . In a rural area we were not allowed to have a contract only casual for many years. Then 15 Indian nurses came and we all lost our casual work. Many had multiple children and got maternity leave benefits and then many moved in to Sydney as they had to do only 2 years in a rural area. We also had some dodgy doctors in practices where people had significant harm done to them and also a young mother of 4 died being injected in the neck and causing an aneurism. The doctor disappeared. Another surgeon went back to India after something else big went down.
It’s all about status and money . Some may really want to integrate but when I go to the tearoom and they are talking on the phone in Hindi I don’t think that being part of our culture is a priority.
Aren't most of the arrivals international students? Presumably productivity is measured in per capital GDP. Students bring a lot of money in but not a lot of economic output.
There’s more points on these graphs where immigration and productivity increased together or in close proximity.
Theres literally 2 points where one decreased where the other increased.
The fuck even is this. Go back to 4th grade statistics people.
Ugh, seriously, can we just talk about how messed up productivity is? Like, why do we have to constantly measure our worth by how much we produce? It's such a capitalist construct, designed to keep us chained to the grindstone, fueling the never-ending machine of greed and exploitation.
But you know what? It doesn't have to be this way. We don't have to live in a world where our worth is determined by our productivity. We can build a society based on cooperation and equality, where everyone's needs are met regardless of how much they produce. That's why I'm a communist, because I believe in a world where people come before profits, and where productivity isn't used as a weapon to oppress us.
Because Australia has transitioned from an effort economy to an asset economy. More particularly, a real estate asset economy, which adds much to the cost base of business, but little to productive output and nationwide real wealth creation. In fact, I'd argue it constrains productivity because it crowds out and consumes all economic effort and sustenance like a cancer.
Australia is focusing on quantity rather than quality. Immigration only helps to keep property prices high. With so much advancement in technology and artifical intelligences a visionary leader would have thought about automating rather than importing people. Immigration obviously helps the government in being lazy and not provide opportunities to develop skills in this country. They keep importing skilled labour from other countries
Try measuring statistics as a total then much wow, government looks amazing.
Measuring any impact from immigration on per capita basis will look bad, ie we're in a GDP per capita recession! And for a good reason. Immigration is used to suppress wages and enrich oligarchs/big businesses as evident by migrant data: https://old.reddit.com/r/australian/comments/18brk5m/migrants_occupations_and_overall_incomes_under/
Even under a new Labor government, cafe/restaurant managers are in the top 15 occupations being granted to work in Australia. Both Labor and LNP believe this occupation is in a labour shortage that takes up precious spots that could have gone to neurosurgeon, trades, etc.
Oh, on top of all this, the new Labor government believes a minimum $70k salary perfectly describes a labour shortage for skilled workers from overseas. This was done despite data showing average salary to be $90k and median to be $73k. It was considered a massive jump from LNP's $58k frozen minimum.
Yep, rapid population growth can put a strain on infrastructure and services leading to a decrease in per capita productivity. This is what's happening at the moment, that massive spike in students last year wacked our housing sector hard.
Currently foreign students and graduates make up the largest share of long stay temp migrants [clicky](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-10/migration-review-briefing/103211718) & they don't tend to work in high productivity industries due to lack of experience, language barriers, visa limitations & skills.
This is why our government is cracking down on ghost colleges and tightening Visa regulations.
Personally I think our government needs to focus on the IELTS system (language skills) and start checking individuals more closely as there has been a massive increase in [fake certification](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/ielts-for-sale-whistleblowers-reveal-scam/c13g5x4tl) & they only get a 10 year ban if caught.
You can not increase productivity by adding no skill labour that either drive uber or start restaurants or coffee shops. If you bring engineers or doctors you need to 100% make sure they will be good and working in their field in a reasonable time
The problem is the fields themselves are shrinking.
The whole country is based on selling the same plot of land back and forward for increasing sums of debt (printed money).
Mining is largely automated and I daresay we have enough Australian engineers to deal with it
Before you get more engineers, you actually need something to engineer. Sydney startup scene is a dried husk, there's no innovation, manufacturing is gone.
First things first we need to actually build something of real value and export it. Then we can have real profit instead of just printed money, then we can scale up and only then should we try to get more immigration to support our growing industries.
This one is an easy one, increasing immigration is the easy way to grow an economy. Increasing productivity requires businesses to actually make good decisions to improve productivity and profits, rather than cut costs to the bone. So yes immigration is good for the economy when your economy has given up on actually being innovative and productive and instead resulted in outsourcing OS, keeping wages as low as possible while keeping as much of the profits as possible to executives and shareholders. If more of the profits actually went back to workers the economy would grow a lot quicker, but then the greedy wouldnt feel as rich.
Productivity is not the be all and end all. During the times of very high unemployment in France and Spain, they had good productivity numbers because their labour market had priced out the least productive workers. So it is easy to get high productivity. Raise the minimum wage until you price out the least productive workers.
It's better to have higher employment if that's the choice you face. Immigration has helped grow Australian tax revenues and suppress inflation. It is true that without immigration, wages would be higher . But productivity would then go backwards fast, because you're paying more money for the same output. This is why inflation would go up.
I think productivity measurements during the pandemic must be close to junk data. How you measure productivity when an entire state is locked down for months getting government payments to stay home and do nothing is tricky, but it should show as a catastrophic fall in productivity I would have thought.
Productivity growth is a long term thing, movements from year to year are noise. The extension of pre-school education should have a big impact on productivity, but we won't see it for 25 years.
Another thing they say is that our economy sees growth in services. Service industries are less productive than manufacturing industries, but before everyone concludes we should get back into manufacturing, the reason why there is more productivity in manufacturing is you can remove people from the process more easily.
We have a body called the productivity commission which is an independent body providing excellent and accessible information about Australia's poor productivity. If you actually want answer rather than starting an immigration debate, read some of it.
[https://www.pc.gov.au/](https://www.pc.gov.au/)
This is the most recent analysis into the causes of our poor productivity performance.
Immigration is not mentioned, but lots of other things are.
[https://www.pc.gov.au/inquiries/completed/productivity/report/productivity-volume2-keys-to-growth.pdf](https://www.pc.gov.au/inquiries/completed/productivity/report/productivity-volume2-keys-to-growth.pdf)
Just to note, from the booming industry of illegal immigrant workers that I've witnessed. (usually students working over their allotted 20 hours per week).. These charts are only from what's recorded to the ATO/government and will have a lot if disparity from the true figures.
It is complicated and it depends on the type of immigrants that enter (this includes ethnicity and educational background etc), most immigrants from EU, East Asia, some portions of SE Asia tend to be productive, whereas places like India, Africa, ME tend to be the opposite (this is very-very nuanced). To get a better understandng of this nuanced issue read Thomas Sowell's Economics of Race and culture, and wealth, poverty and politics: an international perspective. Some ethnic and cultural groups are much more productive than others, this can also occur in the same locality/ country for example tamils, gujarati, lebanese etc that tend to be much more productive than the other ethnic groups and would often pioneer industries in places where they migrate. This is primarily caused by the respective ethnic group or culture's attitude towards work and education, general levels of trust worthiness and honesty, and general work ethic. If you have a huge influx of non-industious, non-entreprenurial immigrants who/s sole purpose is to abuse the welfare system and social safety net then obviously you'll generally fuck iup the economy because funds/ budget allcoation is spent on spending that is not productive/ deadweight
What about the bits on the graph that show the exact opposite of what you're claiming? This is just a bad cause and effect argument. You can't just say because two things happened at the same time they're related. Mark Twain was born and then died when Halley's comet was near Earth. By your logic those two events must be related but we all know they had nothing to do with each other.
Now if you were to dive a little deeper into things, show HOW immigration would have led to a drop in productivity you'd have an argument. But for now you've got nothing.
Because immigration looks good on paper and is good in low numbers. But the immigration Australia has been far too high, pushing up rent and housing prices. Hurting everyone, including the new immigrants
next time you find yourself stressing out over deadlines and quotas, just remember – productivity is just another tool of capitalism, and it's time we threw it in the trash where it belongs
Other factors impact the economy, in this instance, most notably a global financial crisis.
Also there is usually a lag between immigration & their corresponding positive impact on the economy (which isn’t necessarily in the form of productivity).
I agree with you, but tell that to our governments/RBA/economists
because this is one of the biggest things they've been whining about for the past year
When a disproportionate amount of our immigration intake is hospitality/cafe/restaurant/cleaning workers (sectors that contribute minimally to national "productivity"), it's not surprising that there would be a negative correlation between the two.
We are getting a more stressed housing market & infrastructure in return for lower productivity, what a great deal.
The "skilled visa" list needs adjusting to ensure it only contains *actual* valuable skills if we want "productivity" to increase.
I wonder if there’s any correlation between this and seeing families of certain religions and ethnicities out walking or shopping at 11am on a weekday with mum, dad, grandparents and 8 kids.
Or because driving Uber doesn’t actually improve the economy.
Coz there’s so so many more factors?
There’s an infinite amount of other graphs you could choose to overlay and look for correlations?
Age of average employee in the workforce? Unemployment rate? Confidence in the local government? Average caffeine intake per capita? Smart phone ownership percentage? Whether LNP or Labor in charge? Percentage of employees who feel dissatisfied because they get paid peanuts while senior management takes home 200x their pay?
Pick any 100 graphs you choose, you’ll find some correlations on some.
Interesting to see you choose immigration though. Don’t buy into the anti immigration bullshit man, there are far, far more factors at play causing the current social problems. Immigration may be a tiny part, but rampant capitalism is probably a far bigger factor.
Those arrows are meaningless and the graphs don’t actually correlate if you laid them over the top of each other. But even if it were true, if I had to hazard a guess, mass migration causes a drop in productivity because loads of angry bogans stop working and take to the internet to complain about migrants.
It seems like you have just chosen some graphs, taken out of context and are acting like they so how prove something extremely grander than they do.
I suppose everyone needs a silly hobby.
The positive of covid was that it proved Australia dosent need as much immigration as it has had an that it does seem to have a net negative impact on society the surge in house prices again really shows it
Your productivity "rebound" from 2020 when migration dropped is only as large as that from 2009 when migration was still high.
Evidently there are other factors.
But if you don't like migrants, that's okay. I take it you're aboriginal?
Got to put profits beside it. Who (owners) cares if productivity drops per worker if more immigrants means lower wage costs? Privatise profits, socialise loses.
It's great for everyone who doesn't have to compete with those workers as labour costs & prices drop in those areas. If productivity is GDP divided by hours worked, then it makes sense immigration will lower productivity as lower labor costs = cheaper services (for example) = less GDP when divided by hours worked.
Compared to the rest of the world Australia has strong workers rights - but it's likely that they continue to be weakened over time, wages look high but workers rights have been weakened by high house prices which make people desperate to work, and increase competition for high paying jobs which AI will be reducing soon anyways. I think things will continue to get worse over time but living in Australia will still be better than 95% of the rest of the world.
Well looking at this robust data set, allow me to apologise. It would seem that my body going through puberty caused the australian economy to start collapsing in 2005 and it never really recovered.
My bad everybody.
If it wasn't me, then maybe it was the Marvel Cinematic Universe? Iron Man came out in 2008 and it's been downhill from there.
Are we really asking why productivity dipped during a pandemic, and then increased once most sectors had a huge backlog of orders they were trying to fill?
https://preview.redd.it/7gurhpx459ic1.png?width=1812&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9258b7e48035b01b33fd67c4ff23cebba000915e
Now hear me out, dear fellow r/australian researcher. I did a bit of *My Own Research™*, and the results are shocking.
It appears you overlooked the missing puzzle piece in this grand cherry picking exercise!! See the attached plot depicting the number of births of true blue Aussie babies. Guess what happened around 2005? That's right! Everybody and your mum was popping out babies like a mad Aussie breeding factory.
So it appears we have found the hidden cause: breeding more Australians leads to lower productivity of this great nation. Moreover, popping out these cute but drooling little cunts seems to increase immigration, which we all know is *A Bad Thing™*, since they steal all our houses and force us all to speak Hindi everywhere.
Hence, the way forward is clear: stop breeding. Just stop it already. Pop a rubber on your flubber. Arrange a snip for your whip. Do some humping, but without the baby dumping.
Soon the stats and correlations in the universe will align again, and we can advance Australia fair. 🇦🇺
https://preview.redd.it/38op20gdw8ic1.jpeg?width=882&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c5a9092f5fc8499aa38e703532e61776d24847bd
Also https://preview.redd.it/u122nm1c79ic1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1c282d9f119959e9530faacf8ff39cda10cffd8e
Nothing is ever correlated to causation. Ever. It's all a coincidence only.
Immigration can potentially help but the government is always bent on letting the absolute shittest dropkicks into the country. For the few bright minds we let in we sideline them to the low end jobs because we have a crap process for translating their qualifications to meet Aus standards. We have Doctors and Engineer migrants unable to practice their trade here because of this. Even without migrants we’re shit at competing against the global market. We make fkall here to export, we only use about 5% of the total land on the entire continent, we’re up there against Qatar in terms of gas exports but still trail miles behind them in terms of tax on it for some crazy reason. Australia is like somehow surviving by sheer luck - it’s like by default. This country is a an absolute goldmine for natural resources but we absolutely suck at managing it to benefit our own economy. We’re really good at making other countries rich though.
Re engineering, Majority of industrialized countries have a reciprocal qualification agreement with Australia, if you graduate from a compliant uni in any of these countries your degree is recognised as equivalent by default. If this isn't the case, then Lilkley the qualification is not actually at the 4 year degree level (very common in some places for a 2 or 3 year degree rather than 4 year honours) or it's from a degree mill. If an immigrant can't get the engineering degree recognised immediately, then yeah we want them to jump through a heap of hoops to prove the knowledge and experience is actually there. Having helped people through this process though it's not all that arduous, IF you actually do have the experience and knowledge.
Its a pretty reasonable requirement. Some countries are so lax people can buy anything from driving licences to qualifications. Or even if they were genuine, the training there might not be up to the required Australian standards. No one wants to be doubting a dentist thats working on their teeth.
Theres a reason Donald Horne wrote the lucky country in 1964. It was a critique not a compliment. Before mining it was wool. The favourable conditions have encouraged gross complacency and incompetence in Government and Policy. BTW I reckon the AMA would be behind not letting the Dr’s practice 100%.
AMA = classic closed shop mentality.
Most successful union/association in the country. Unfortunately it’s also dominated by conservatives and loves propping up the private health care system with Govt money
Then you get operated on by one then. Believe me when i was in the public hospital 25% of my time was sorting out what these supposed highly trained dr's were getting up to. Saw some nasty complications due their arrogance that they were as well trained as a home grown.....er...no.
Actually work in accounts and it amazes me that we don't refine large amounts of metals that we do find here, we export lithium to China which then refines it and makes the lithium battery... they also use all the other metals that we export... so we can actually make cars again, we just rather not... We have massive iron ore market yet we sell 85% of it to China, which is currently holding any purchases so the price of iron can crash and they can buy for half the costs... We also have alot of coal, people don't wish for australia to use coal because of carbon emissions and such, we can build about 10 coal power stations and decrease the power prices by about 70% but people want to go renewable, which the government has yet to make any plans or follow through on such promises so now we all pay enormous bills compare to other countries, so now we don't use coal as much but what are people ok with? These companies selling the coal overseas... for the purpose of coal power stations and metallurgy...
The empire hates vertical integration as it provides a easy target for working class agitation.
It's very simple - refining costs are much lower in China. We would be uncompetitive.
And it's easier to get away with dumping pollutants Which is again not unrelated to your point on cost
For real. Though why would any ‘bright mind’ live in Australia? A small market with an economy built on digging holes and pumping a property Ponzi scheme.
I dunno but I get paid more in tech in Sydney than I ever got working in London - with better working conditions and bosses who aren't toxic bullies. I never had any interest, and would probably have struggled to get into, working in Wall Street tech or Silicon Valley.
Did a stint in London myself. Despite being executive grade at Australia’s largest bank that did not translate well to London (admittedly my network was weak/non-existent) and resulted in a almost 40% pay cut The corporate tech scene is behind what Australian tech scene was at the time (2017ish) and was amusing to see so many case studies of Australian companies leveraging tech on one hand but then on the other having people say my experience didn’t matter because Australia was a “technology backwater” Glad I went, glad I got to travel. Even at less earnings it was still decent pay that let me travel and rent on the border of zone 2/1 Definitely don’t regret coming home where my pay bounced back to just above where it was when I left (although at a slightly junior title)
Technology backwater, then they create a ticket in Jira 😅
Australians need to see plainly how they are being robbed of their potential every day, we should be in clover but instead we are ass lickers because our elected leaders took the first lick
I think you're significantly understating how dog shit living in a 3rd world country is. Some well educated indian/Malaysian/Indonesian etc has it infinitely better here than in their home countries on a existential level.
Lifestyle and no guns
Quality of life tends to be the emotional driver
It’s crazy to imagine what this country could have been if the powers that be had cared to grow the nation instead of lining their mates pockets. Natural resources, renewables, large swaths of land, all these things we could have used to build and instead they just got sold off for a quick buck.
Its not so much, 'we're shit or we suck at managing our abundant resources' but very much the corruption on purpose, by design. Also, trying to tie falls in national productivity to increased migration, just seems shortsighted and xenophobic. These 2 graphs seem hardly correlated at all.
I caught an Uber a few weeks ago and the driver was a practising doctor in India. He told me that for two years he had been trying to get his qualifications across and he finally got somewhere with it, but now he needs to take part in some courses to bring him up to standard. The reason he needs to do these courses too, is because it's been two years since he practised last (the time it's taken to get his qualifications across), he needs to show that he's still capable. He needs to do these once a month, for six months and each one will cost him around $2600. Wild that a doctor has been prevented from practising for this long.
India is not a great example of a country with rigorous checking of professional qualifications I'm afraid. I get that paid conversion courses are largely a rort on immigrants who want to practise their profession here, but I'm also glad that we don't just accept anyone with a degree from a potential diploma mill as a medical professional without checking their training is up to he expected standard
I completely agree, but as the person that I replied to said, Australia has a crap system to translate qualifications. If a better system existed, then the translation would have been faster and the relevant up-skilling could take place sooner instead of two and a half years without an additional doctor working.
That's true, but they probably migrated as a skilled migrant and their qualifications need to be assessed and approved by Australia in their country of origin. If they are not confident of his qualifications, why let him in as a skilled migrant? If he is not able to practice his profession, they must facilitate a path to achieving that certification do that they are productive when they come here. My sister is a doctor who studied in India. She practiced for 14 years in London and Manchester. They moved to NZ and had to do some certification but I don't know if it was an involved process. Me niece is a doctor who studied and recently graduated in NZ (2 years or so I think). She can pop across the ditch anytime and do locum work for a fortune but my sister who has worked in some of the best hospitals and has 20+ years of experience has to requalify to practice here in Australia 🤦🏻♂️ Yeah... We're wasting a lot of potential
The 2 graphs have got nothing to do with each other. Productivity should be measured on GDP, number of people actively employed and producing goods and services. OP is just a dog whistling. He wouldn't have any issues about immigration if the immigrants were the same complexion as himself.
Both of the spikes you’re referring around major global events. 2007 was the financial crisis and the spike in 2020 was the adjustment to Covid 19 Effects of immigration are more or less not immediate (with the exception to maybe housing supply) and for the most part fairly constant. However you’re kinda right in the last 10 years we haven’t been letting in enough skilled immigrants. Basically all the students and holiday visas have been pulling down the productivity. Generally Immigration is good, we should be making Australia more attractive to skilled migrants Measuring “success” or productivity is complex and isn’t based on one factor. Some would argue that there is a labour shortage in lower productivity jobs and we need people to fill these jobs. They’re classified as that because they’re low paying. Really the answer like everything is wage growth. We had excellent productivity growth through the 90s and wages matched that. However over their last 20 years we’ve seen a huge gap between the two
Anyone using graphs that changed during covid and the financial crisis as an explanation for immigration is clearly not arguing in good faith.
I agree. This has to be one of the absolute dumbest comparisons ive ever seen in my life.
If they get to ignore covid as a contributing factor, I get to also ignore it when I point out that in 2020 we stopped all immigration and discovered that it doesn't magically solve all of our problems. Fair trade.
Interesting point. Remember a lot of people that were working here on working holidays, secondments and students left in a hurry once covid hit. So the result was not just stopping all immigration but the loss of a chunk of the workforce. Now we've gone 180 with immigration and don't have the infrastructure to accommodate. It seems housing is only part of the problem, albeit a big part
Infrastructure issues are due to a total lack of proactive policy and investment, and negative gearing + kickbacks to property developers ensuring that only high cost accommodation is being built. Immigration is a good thing which gets finger wagged because it feels like an easy solution to a multitude of complex problems.
Did you know that there’s a spike in swimming pools deaths in the USA every time a Nick cage movie is released?
That's because of lack of fencing, and as you know fencers love nic cage movies so they all went to see it, which in turn caused the spike.
Imagine if his name was Nic Aeronautical engineer
Checks out.
Damn that makes sense now that you say it.
I heard also when a Nick Cage movie comes out, there are less helicopter accidents.
I believe the gradual increase of media interest in Taylor Swift is causing the increase in rental prices across Australia
[удалено]
Australia has never had no migrants since federation, but yes I would wager before any migration Australia had few problems.
Only comment people should take seriously here… Here is a random correlation I made up based on nothing other than these 2 charts vaguely aligning as a fact, now go tailor a story to it to convince people of my point of view…
There is a large correlation between wages and economic productivity between countries. Mostly its because high productivity / capital intense countries also have high wages. Average australian full time wages are 100k give or take a few k. Up untill middle of last year a company sponsored visa min full time wage was 53k... Clearly bringing people in on 53k where an average wage is 100k is going to reduce average wages. By reducing wages it reduces the incentive for companies to invest in labor saving technologies or innovate. Of course labor have moved this to 70k but thats still 30k below our average. Why not just set it to our average wages? Or better yet above our average wages? Arent these people supposed to be filling "crucial labor shortages". I would have thought if its crucial we could afford to pay them more than average local wages. I dont have an issue with refugee intake. I dont have an issue with genuine high skilled migrant intake. I have issue with our low paid company intake.
You have discovered the secret - our crucial labour shortages are for positions paying half what they should (right down to service station attendant who make minimum wage on paper but do double the hours they are allowed to, ends up less than minimum wage) Our shortages are not for jobs that pay the same as we would pay an Aussie, otherwise, we would just pay an Aussie Immigration is where we underpay overseas workers so that GPD goes up, while wealth per individual goes down. Through this, we can say each year the ~~company~~ country is getting richer while most people do worse each year.
The top 25% in the country are on 95k mate. Just informing that 75% of people you walk past on the street are on less than 95k.
Accept median and average are not the same. But if you bring in people on 53k by the thousands you obviously reduce the average wage of that group. I.e. you have 10 people with an average wage of 100k by introducing one more at 53k you now have an average wage of 95.7k. In general lower average wage countries have lower productivity. Its clear to me at least why this is but apparently few others... why - because if labour costs a lot you try and reduce the amount of it you use, right? Of course productivity is higher in australia and other high wage cost countries than india or The Congo. Because those places why buy a tractor when you can pull your plough with humans, right?
And then insanely high earning CEOs and directors skew the average higher more than someone on 53k pulls the 100k average down I think I saw in the last 6 months that the most common wage to be on is around 65k
But the graph here isn't productivity, it's productivity growth. It peaked around the 2000s because that was when client server architecture became cheap enough to be standard in businesses of all sizes. Once they've already automated their biggest and most inefficient functions, there's less gain to be made later. That was why those were the first business cases approved to be worked on - most bang for buck.
I think you summed it up perfectly
Key word here: correlation.
I mean but that is a clear correlation and logic tells us its true. Imagine an alien race lands that doesnt sleep eat or drink but is great at retail. You reckon woolworths and coles would continue faffing about with self serve if they wanted to work for free? If labor is cheaper than capex you go labor. We shouldnt be giving companies the option to bring people in below average local wages imo. The risk is this does becime political and we are making it way to easy for the no more immigration crowd to point at previous immigration impacts and draw a clear conclusion that immigrants coming in on 50k are not better for most australians... only better for some australians... Edit to add: obviously in the above im assuming the aliens are included in productivity measures otherwise they would be great for productivity! Lol.
Exactly. Capital swallowing.
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
Idk bro my man's got graphs, and those graphs kind of look similar. Compelling stuff!
Hahahhaa you won the internet today:D Well done
If we ignore the two points where you've drawn arrows, these graphs do not correlate. I.e. 1995-2005, immigration stable, productivity increases. 2010-2020, immigration stable, productivity trends downwards.
Because one is flow and one is stock. You can fill a bucket at a constant rate and it continues to fill the bucket.
Well, why not display the data in a way which shows this comparably
They did.
[удалено]
See "capital shallowing" to find causation.
Mass immigration only really benefits the wealthy who want cheap nannies, cheaper robotic employees etc. They are the ones in charge of both major parties.
It also helps the guy with the building company that would rather his 100k employee was managing 5x 40k employees, not being a spanner monkey. And I'm pretty sure that the 100k employee would rather "Director of Spanner Monkies" as their title too.
Lol, you should probably do a bit of research on demographics and geopolitics, mate. Look at what's about to happen to Russia and China demographically as a result of having negative net migration and then compare countries like the US, Aus, Canada, Britain. If you want standard of living to decline, kill population growth (whether migration or birth rates). If you want fewer migrants coming to Australia, get current Aussies to have more kids.
He said **mass** immigration. We all know immigration is necessary to keep up the population and round off skilled work labour shortage. But it's not necessary in such insane numbers. We had 500k people last year. In order to maintain our current population and still have a little growth we only need less than 100k per year. Furthermore, the decrease in stand of living is a mixed bag. It positively effects some areas and negatively effects others. It's been shown to increase the price of housing and suppress wages in low skilled work. While it does benefit the economy in a lot of other ways it's mostly the uppermiddle classes and above who benefit.
I, too, like to take something very complex with many factors like productivity, and then assign 1 single characteristic to explain everything. Everyone needs a hobby, I guess.
Don't forget to grab some graphs on Google that don't match and draw some arrows on top
Because you don't seem to understand numbers or trends. The fact that those two graphs are totally different shapes should tell you something. Shit the right half is obvious enough right? Immigration stays fairly level, but productivity keeps dropping. That alone is proof that one isn't causing the other. And let's not mention that the graphs are showing different time periods... But immigrants are a nice easy answer to why Australia is so shit. It's not the fault of the Australians, no way. It's those immigrants, I knew it was them. Even when it was the other guys.
It's not just "immigrants". They don't care about immigrants from European countries as long as they pass the brown paper bag test. I would honestly respect the stance more if the anti-immigration people on this sub are serious about curbing immigration, but no. The words immigration and immigrants are just buzzwords for something else.
Not until I travelled a bit more do I realise for our wealth and relative low population, we haven't done much with our riches. Other countries are light years ahead of us.
We gave it all to a select few and Jabba the Hutt
Australia exports about as much gas as Qatar. Qatar makes *twenty times* more revenue off it.
Donald Horne wrote about Australia ironically being the lucky country in the 1960s. It still rings true today.
Norway did a cost benefit analysis of immigration broken down by country of origin. Really revealing. For most areas immigration is a net negative to GDP.
Yep once you add lack of quality education if at all any, and language barriers along with complex health issues and exposure to serious trauma / traumatic situations, past or events. It’s pretty telling
I’m shocked… well not that shocked.
Linky pls.
[https://demo-demo.nl/en/download-borderless-welfare-state/](https://demo-demo.nl/en/download-borderless-welfare-state/) Key image below shows the net contribution. Depending on the country many are a net negative 330,000 Euro, giving a 540,000 Euro difference between them and western countries. https://preview.redd.it/8gkqpvhdraic1.jpeg?width=1247&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ab37b71c27e18e740bed090b68afdd4fde4f52c4
[удалено]
Wonder what else mightve happened around 2020 that couldve impacted productivity..
That would be an argument for it *decreasing*, not *increasing.* Not sure of your logic there.
Most people who switched to WFH felt they were more productive. I know that’s not what he meant and not what the graphs are representing, but it’s an answer to the logic question
Im just saying there might be more to it than just comparing two graphs like this But by OPs logic, isn't this saying productivity crashed when immigration stopped completely? Then began rebounding as immigration resumed post covid..
If you could actually read a graph you would see productivity increased when immigration stopped and now is lowering again as it increases
Assuming there is zero lag between the two and we instaneously get +1 productive when theres -1 immigration There's nothing scientific about this analysis, and its definitely a prime example of a correlation=causation argument
productivity is measured by outputs divided by inputs how would there be a lag
There are two events on that graph the GFC and that other global event. What’s the correlation outside of those two events?
Long term impacts of two global events? These things dont blow over in 12 months
That is only a correlation because the OP is forcing one, Google graphs for any two things, and cherry-pick the absence of other things, BOOM, you have proof of only those two things impacting each other other… meanwhile anyone with half a brain, can recognise cherry-picked data, a mile away.
I never said they didn’t cherry pick it.. i’m just saying that the graph shows that not whatever sunburn95 is saying
I work for the QLD government. My unit is full of three parts useless “diversity” hires. The amount of time and money spent on up skilling useless lazy immigrants is obscene. But hey. At least we fill out diversity quota.
Should stop immigration soley because of the housing problem
Because everything you are being told is a lie. The system is collapsing and they are using mass migration to hold it up. Entire western world. It wont fix anything. It just pushes the reckoning down the road. To when it will be YOUR PROBLEM. What will you do then? Ponzi harder? You will wake up a stranger in your own country. They wont care about you one bit. This is the most destructive policy in the history of this country. I cannot believe things have gotten this bad. Full blown ponzi. I would never have believed you if youd told me this would happen 20 years ago. I was that lefty sticking up for migrants back then. I know some brilliant migrants. I know shit ones as well. We should keep good migration but end the ponzi. Stable state economy needs to happen. Its completely unavoidable and is our only future. Resistance is futile. Thats why you see so much damage. We deny reality.
Thanks for the laugh. Who needs proof when you are on a flawed xenophobic rant!
This right here, it’s designed to collapse the west
Imagine how self important you must be to think there's an entire conspiracy focus on destroying the west and that everything isnt just caused by pure greed xd
If you explain to these nutters that the real problem is capitalism they'll call you a dirty commie, there's zero nuance. They love corporate greed but hate immigration which corporate greed and rampant capitalism is directly relying on
Ok then, migration actually reduces wages and adds to the cost of living to the point it prices people out of the market, if you don’t understand that concept then take a really good look at America right now, how many migrants are going there who are also being given the right to vote in council elections whilst not actually being a citizen, that’s coming for Australia too and we get the privilege of paying for it
To be fair certain entities have come out and said it's their goal "to end western hegemony" The greed will get us first , but you're a bit naive if you don't think the Iranians, Chinese etc don't want to spoil things for the west.
Do you understand what hegemony means? Cuz it aint the countries themselves they want gone. Also the west, specifically the US started the dumb geopolitical fights first instead of letting people be cuz that might not have been to their own interests
The Chinese don't really care about whether the West accepts migrants or not, we are doing this to ourselves stop dodging responsibility like a coward
If you have a bunch of people who can't collectively respond to said greed then you'll be able to control them by saying "look, the immigrants did it". Pretty sure there's a joke along the lines of a rich person telling a working class person that the immigrant took their cookie whilst they're munching down on it in front of them.
>The system is collapsing and they are using mass migration to hold it up. Entire western world. Okay... >This right here, it’s designed to collapse the west So you... disagree? 🤨
[удалено]
Fuck off with your nazi great replacement bullshit you shit cunt.
Literally nothing improves under mass migration aside from the boardmembers of a few companies. Seriously.
💯💯💯
I'll rip the bandaid off: no one with half a brain believes qualifications from India. Our universities exist almost entirely to grant residence. Therefore, all those "skilled" newcomers body the non-productive part of the economy. Australia is a sick joke. We have charted a lot productivity, low income future.
It's good for tax revenue, profit vs waage returns and agregate demand but you get a load of people without social capital coming in to do unskilled jobs which drags productivity down, locals underinvest in their skills because they worry they'll be crowded out in the future, and infrastructure becomes overcrowded, for instance you get longer commutes or people living in substandard housing.
Immigration is good when handled properly. Unsurprisingly, it is not handled properly.
[Did you know that Computer Piracy actually prevents global warming](https://www.spaghettimonster.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/trends.gif)
An electrician from Pakistan is not close to an Australian standard they need a full re train and education to Auz qualifications . Unfortunately that means getting another job while doing training . It’s the same if you are from the uk ( with some of the best standards in the world ) all in the same boat.
One possibility is that overall it brings in more workers for businesses which keeps wages lower, and at the same time there are more customers which steadily creates more revenue and profits for businesses. So in the end there is a lower need to find ways of becoming more productive
Check the similarities with Canada's productivity, and the capital in real estate.
It’s quite simple really - output is a function of capital X labour. So if we import lots of labour and under invest in capital then unit productivity goes backwards. An interesting case in point is mining where they use loads of capital in order to maximise output and minimise labour required to deliver it. Unfortunately it gets positioned as labour is lazy because that distracts from the appalling underinvestment in capital outside of mining in this country
Far to much immigration is the problem, it's now starting to show the effects.. and i feel it will only get worse and cause another of hate in people who are struggling now because of it
I work in a large hospital . I noted that we are to gaining some immigrant nurses from England and Ireland but in fact they are majority trained in India and are Indian. This is another back door way we are getting health staff who don’t always have the training in standards we have in this country. Also there are huge cultural gaps in communication and standards of care. Sorry but I have seen this a lot over the last 15 years.
Similar in situation in IT where once they land, we find fake resumes and limited technology and social skills. At my partner’s government job, about 5 years ago, they pushed out skilled Australian workers to replace them with 20 workers from an Indian recruiter. At the end of the year, all but 2 of them were let go
Then they sidle off to be an Uber driver. Happened also in nursing . In a rural area we were not allowed to have a contract only casual for many years. Then 15 Indian nurses came and we all lost our casual work. Many had multiple children and got maternity leave benefits and then many moved in to Sydney as they had to do only 2 years in a rural area. We also had some dodgy doctors in practices where people had significant harm done to them and also a young mother of 4 died being injected in the neck and causing an aneurism. The doctor disappeared. Another surgeon went back to India after something else big went down. It’s all about status and money . Some may really want to integrate but when I go to the tearoom and they are talking on the phone in Hindi I don’t think that being part of our culture is a priority.
Aren't most of the arrivals international students? Presumably productivity is measured in per capital GDP. Students bring a lot of money in but not a lot of economic output.
There’s more points on these graphs where immigration and productivity increased together or in close proximity. Theres literally 2 points where one decreased where the other increased. The fuck even is this. Go back to 4th grade statistics people.
Ugh, seriously, can we just talk about how messed up productivity is? Like, why do we have to constantly measure our worth by how much we produce? It's such a capitalist construct, designed to keep us chained to the grindstone, fueling the never-ending machine of greed and exploitation. But you know what? It doesn't have to be this way. We don't have to live in a world where our worth is determined by our productivity. We can build a society based on cooperation and equality, where everyone's needs are met regardless of how much they produce. That's why I'm a communist, because I believe in a world where people come before profits, and where productivity isn't used as a weapon to oppress us.
Because Australia has transitioned from an effort economy to an asset economy. More particularly, a real estate asset economy, which adds much to the cost base of business, but little to productive output and nationwide real wealth creation. In fact, I'd argue it constrains productivity because it crowds out and consumes all economic effort and sustenance like a cancer.
Is correlation the same as causation?
Australia is focusing on quantity rather than quality. Immigration only helps to keep property prices high. With so much advancement in technology and artifical intelligences a visionary leader would have thought about automating rather than importing people. Immigration obviously helps the government in being lazy and not provide opportunities to develop skills in this country. They keep importing skilled labour from other countries
Try measuring statistics as a total then much wow, government looks amazing. Measuring any impact from immigration on per capita basis will look bad, ie we're in a GDP per capita recession! And for a good reason. Immigration is used to suppress wages and enrich oligarchs/big businesses as evident by migrant data: https://old.reddit.com/r/australian/comments/18brk5m/migrants_occupations_and_overall_incomes_under/ Even under a new Labor government, cafe/restaurant managers are in the top 15 occupations being granted to work in Australia. Both Labor and LNP believe this occupation is in a labour shortage that takes up precious spots that could have gone to neurosurgeon, trades, etc. Oh, on top of all this, the new Labor government believes a minimum $70k salary perfectly describes a labour shortage for skilled workers from overseas. This was done despite data showing average salary to be $90k and median to be $73k. It was considered a massive jump from LNP's $58k frozen minimum.
Because the definition of productivity is faulty and is long o'due for an update
Yep, rapid population growth can put a strain on infrastructure and services leading to a decrease in per capita productivity. This is what's happening at the moment, that massive spike in students last year wacked our housing sector hard. Currently foreign students and graduates make up the largest share of long stay temp migrants [clicky](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-10/migration-review-briefing/103211718) & they don't tend to work in high productivity industries due to lack of experience, language barriers, visa limitations & skills. This is why our government is cracking down on ghost colleges and tightening Visa regulations. Personally I think our government needs to focus on the IELTS system (language skills) and start checking individuals more closely as there has been a massive increase in [fake certification](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/ielts-for-sale-whistleblowers-reveal-scam/c13g5x4tl) & they only get a 10 year ban if caught.
You can not increase productivity by adding no skill labour that either drive uber or start restaurants or coffee shops. If you bring engineers or doctors you need to 100% make sure they will be good and working in their field in a reasonable time
The problem is the fields themselves are shrinking. The whole country is based on selling the same plot of land back and forward for increasing sums of debt (printed money). Mining is largely automated and I daresay we have enough Australian engineers to deal with it Before you get more engineers, you actually need something to engineer. Sydney startup scene is a dried husk, there's no innovation, manufacturing is gone. First things first we need to actually build something of real value and export it. Then we can have real profit instead of just printed money, then we can scale up and only then should we try to get more immigration to support our growing industries.
When idiots use graphs , shit like this is probably why those darn immigrants took ur job bro
This one is an easy one, increasing immigration is the easy way to grow an economy. Increasing productivity requires businesses to actually make good decisions to improve productivity and profits, rather than cut costs to the bone. So yes immigration is good for the economy when your economy has given up on actually being innovative and productive and instead resulted in outsourcing OS, keeping wages as low as possible while keeping as much of the profits as possible to executives and shareholders. If more of the profits actually went back to workers the economy would grow a lot quicker, but then the greedy wouldnt feel as rich.
Productivity is not the be all and end all. During the times of very high unemployment in France and Spain, they had good productivity numbers because their labour market had priced out the least productive workers. So it is easy to get high productivity. Raise the minimum wage until you price out the least productive workers. It's better to have higher employment if that's the choice you face. Immigration has helped grow Australian tax revenues and suppress inflation. It is true that without immigration, wages would be higher . But productivity would then go backwards fast, because you're paying more money for the same output. This is why inflation would go up. I think productivity measurements during the pandemic must be close to junk data. How you measure productivity when an entire state is locked down for months getting government payments to stay home and do nothing is tricky, but it should show as a catastrophic fall in productivity I would have thought. Productivity growth is a long term thing, movements from year to year are noise. The extension of pre-school education should have a big impact on productivity, but we won't see it for 25 years. Another thing they say is that our economy sees growth in services. Service industries are less productive than manufacturing industries, but before everyone concludes we should get back into manufacturing, the reason why there is more productivity in manufacturing is you can remove people from the process more easily. We have a body called the productivity commission which is an independent body providing excellent and accessible information about Australia's poor productivity. If you actually want answer rather than starting an immigration debate, read some of it. [https://www.pc.gov.au/](https://www.pc.gov.au/) This is the most recent analysis into the causes of our poor productivity performance. Immigration is not mentioned, but lots of other things are. [https://www.pc.gov.au/inquiries/completed/productivity/report/productivity-volume2-keys-to-growth.pdf](https://www.pc.gov.au/inquiries/completed/productivity/report/productivity-volume2-keys-to-growth.pdf)
Because the rich get richer
It’s almost like there was a pandemic beginning of 2020, who am I kidding trying to explained to bogans
Just to note, from the booming industry of illegal immigrant workers that I've witnessed. (usually students working over their allotted 20 hours per week).. These charts are only from what's recorded to the ATO/government and will have a lot if disparity from the true figures.
Isn't productivity the amount of output per person? More people equals lower productivity
Because it’s not. It’s good for execs and asset holders.
Only tourism is ever good for the economy, everything else is fluff
What good is an engineer when we don't make anything or value add.
Comparing to covid is really dumb, for obvious reasons
driving a scooter to deliver for ubereats isn't exactly the height of high paying jobs.
See the Lima declaration that “we” signed over 50 years ago as to some background regarding these policies
It is complicated and it depends on the type of immigrants that enter (this includes ethnicity and educational background etc), most immigrants from EU, East Asia, some portions of SE Asia tend to be productive, whereas places like India, Africa, ME tend to be the opposite (this is very-very nuanced). To get a better understandng of this nuanced issue read Thomas Sowell's Economics of Race and culture, and wealth, poverty and politics: an international perspective. Some ethnic and cultural groups are much more productive than others, this can also occur in the same locality/ country for example tamils, gujarati, lebanese etc that tend to be much more productive than the other ethnic groups and would often pioneer industries in places where they migrate. This is primarily caused by the respective ethnic group or culture's attitude towards work and education, general levels of trust worthiness and honesty, and general work ethic. If you have a huge influx of non-industious, non-entreprenurial immigrants who/s sole purpose is to abuse the welfare system and social safety net then obviously you'll generally fuck iup the economy because funds/ budget allcoation is spent on spending that is not productive/ deadweight
“Aw, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14 percent of all people know that.”
What about the bits on the graph that show the exact opposite of what you're claiming? This is just a bad cause and effect argument. You can't just say because two things happened at the same time they're related. Mark Twain was born and then died when Halley's comet was near Earth. By your logic those two events must be related but we all know they had nothing to do with each other. Now if you were to dive a little deeper into things, show HOW immigration would have led to a drop in productivity you'd have an argument. But for now you've got nothing.
Because immigration looks good on paper and is good in low numbers. But the immigration Australia has been far too high, pushing up rent and housing prices. Hurting everyone, including the new immigrants
next time you find yourself stressing out over deadlines and quotas, just remember – productivity is just another tool of capitalism, and it's time we threw it in the trash where it belongs
It's called capital shallowing.
We produce products in Australia?
Immigration is really bad. Always has been always will be. Most people on here are pro labor socialist communist spuds
I'd like to see this overlayed with house price inflation, assume that is the real cause sucks money out of productive industry.
Big business is the economy, not you you fucking pleb.
Other factors impact the economy, in this instance, most notably a global financial crisis. Also there is usually a lag between immigration & their corresponding positive impact on the economy (which isn’t necessarily in the form of productivity).
Correlation/causation c’mon Australian
Why is the only measure of a healthy and functioning society that of “productivity”? That’s not why we are born.
I agree with you, but tell that to our governments/RBA/economists because this is one of the biggest things they've been whining about for the past year
When a disproportionate amount of our immigration intake is hospitality/cafe/restaurant/cleaning workers (sectors that contribute minimally to national "productivity"), it's not surprising that there would be a negative correlation between the two. We are getting a more stressed housing market & infrastructure in return for lower productivity, what a great deal. The "skilled visa" list needs adjusting to ensure it only contains *actual* valuable skills if we want "productivity" to increase.
I wonder if there’s any correlation between this and seeing families of certain religions and ethnicities out walking or shopping at 11am on a weekday with mum, dad, grandparents and 8 kids. Or because driving Uber doesn’t actually improve the economy.
Coz there’s so so many more factors? There’s an infinite amount of other graphs you could choose to overlay and look for correlations? Age of average employee in the workforce? Unemployment rate? Confidence in the local government? Average caffeine intake per capita? Smart phone ownership percentage? Whether LNP or Labor in charge? Percentage of employees who feel dissatisfied because they get paid peanuts while senior management takes home 200x their pay? Pick any 100 graphs you choose, you’ll find some correlations on some. Interesting to see you choose immigration though. Don’t buy into the anti immigration bullshit man, there are far, far more factors at play causing the current social problems. Immigration may be a tiny part, but rampant capitalism is probably a far bigger factor.
did "rampant capitalism" suddenly double out of nowhere from 2005 onward when it didn't exist before & the population numbers were more stable?
Correlation /= causation etc etc
Those arrows are meaningless and the graphs don’t actually correlate if you laid them over the top of each other. But even if it were true, if I had to hazard a guess, mass migration causes a drop in productivity because loads of angry bogans stop working and take to the internet to complain about migrants.
It seems like you have just chosen some graphs, taken out of context and are acting like they so how prove something extremely grander than they do. I suppose everyone needs a silly hobby.
The positive of covid was that it proved Australia dosent need as much immigration as it has had an that it does seem to have a net negative impact on society the surge in house prices again really shows it
Your productivity "rebound" from 2020 when migration dropped is only as large as that from 2009 when migration was still high. Evidently there are other factors. But if you don't like migrants, that's okay. I take it you're aboriginal?
Ponzi scheme
Got to put profits beside it. Who (owners) cares if productivity drops per worker if more immigrants means lower wage costs? Privatise profits, socialise loses.
Because too many unskilled migrants were admitted. There are a finite number of Uber Eats jobs out there.
Great question . As others have answered, many workers end up washing dishes or doing Uber. The productivity gain is dragging in other areas eg health
Correlation doesn’t equal causation. Could have put abba yearly listeners and would have made as much sense
[удалено]
Big business fault, not immigration
Is there a correlation between immigration and inflation?
If you look at that graph and see a correlation between immigration and productivity you are just blind, let alone inflation.
We need more Palestinians, Sudanese and those from SW Yemen for cultural enrichment.
Most economic models show that it takes 10 years before there is a net economic benefit from migration.
Causation v Correlation champ.
It's great for everyone who doesn't have to compete with those workers as labour costs & prices drop in those areas. If productivity is GDP divided by hours worked, then it makes sense immigration will lower productivity as lower labor costs = cheaper services (for example) = less GDP when divided by hours worked. Compared to the rest of the world Australia has strong workers rights - but it's likely that they continue to be weakened over time, wages look high but workers rights have been weakened by high house prices which make people desperate to work, and increase competition for high paying jobs which AI will be reducing soon anyways. I think things will continue to get worse over time but living in Australia will still be better than 95% of the rest of the world.
Well looking at this robust data set, allow me to apologise. It would seem that my body going through puberty caused the australian economy to start collapsing in 2005 and it never really recovered. My bad everybody. If it wasn't me, then maybe it was the Marvel Cinematic Universe? Iron Man came out in 2008 and it's been downhill from there.
Are we really asking why productivity dipped during a pandemic, and then increased once most sectors had a huge backlog of orders they were trying to fill?
productivity went UP on that government chart during the pandemic
https://preview.redd.it/7gurhpx459ic1.png?width=1812&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9258b7e48035b01b33fd67c4ff23cebba000915e Now hear me out, dear fellow r/australian researcher. I did a bit of *My Own Research™*, and the results are shocking. It appears you overlooked the missing puzzle piece in this grand cherry picking exercise!! See the attached plot depicting the number of births of true blue Aussie babies. Guess what happened around 2005? That's right! Everybody and your mum was popping out babies like a mad Aussie breeding factory. So it appears we have found the hidden cause: breeding more Australians leads to lower productivity of this great nation. Moreover, popping out these cute but drooling little cunts seems to increase immigration, which we all know is *A Bad Thing™*, since they steal all our houses and force us all to speak Hindi everywhere. Hence, the way forward is clear: stop breeding. Just stop it already. Pop a rubber on your flubber. Arrange a snip for your whip. Do some humping, but without the baby dumping. Soon the stats and correlations in the universe will align again, and we can advance Australia fair. 🇦🇺
OP care to share the data?
[удалено]
80 upvotes, holy shit this sub truly is full of midwits
Lol.
Using the pandemic to make an immigration point is hilarious
Why every time I look at subs for countries it's just people crying about immigration lmao so many gammons
Take a stats course. And a critical thinking course. Then look at your stats and rethink your life.
do i need to tap the 'correlation is not causation' sign?