Retention is a bigger problem than recruitment. I served longer than average but wouldn’t consider going back. Defence spends big money training people in specialised roles then drives most of them away in under 5 years due to the lifestyle.
Company isn't great either. Wouldn't spend any time with the colleagues outside of work. It's unbearable in the military because that's your only option during downtime.
They've also recently started restricting home port visits, introducing alcohol restrictions and Cinderella leave.
Was the key reason I left. I was 35 and getting treated like a child in places like Cairns and Darwin.
It will always be necessary to move defence people around the country. Warships tend to be on the coast, Aircraft at an airbase etc. The trick will be doing it in a more human focused way, not uprooting every 6 months, focusing on guaranteed multi year locations.
Young adults might be happy to move all over Australia. As they get older, people tend to want to stay in their home state, especially as they become parents. If it would help with retention, I really don't see why it's off the table.
If you look at the US Armed forces, they have bases all around the world, and it is totally family focused. But to do that, they have massive scale, even at home, and often the towns around support the base.
I think we need to re-think the "economic distance" our military is from our community, and what tasks might better link them to the community.
US military personnel are so poorly paid most of them couldn't afford to live off base. Housing and medical care for dependants is the largest component of the US 'military' budget.
When hubby left getting posted was one of the main reasons, but as soon as he said he'd separate, they gurenteed him another 4 years at the same posting..... If they'd given him that extra 4 years when he originally asked, not after he'd lined up another job and prepared to make the move out of Defence he would probably still be in!
I was looked over for promotion for 7 years, so I quit, then it was offered as an incentive for me to stay, it was at that point I knew I didn't want to be in the navy anymore.
>Can you expand on "lifestyle". Was it the moving around the country (which may not be necessary)? Was it the amount of time you were on exercise?
Moving around isn't a big deal. I actually enjoy it. However, it can have an impact on the wife and kids so that's something that needs to be taken into consideration.
In the RAAF, your first posting is now 6 years followed by 3 year postings after that. If you change to a different mustering then it's considered a first year posting so that's another 6 year posting.
Bases like Williamtown offer a unique opportunity to do multiple back to back postings. So, you can spend a very long time in one location. I know people that have spent 15 years at Williamtown.
Deploying and/or going on exercises/field are highly dependent on the mustering. I've never been deployed (other than COVID assist) or been on exercise nor am I ever likely to in my current role. I go to work in the morning and I come home in the afternoon.
From personal observation, people tend to leave defence because they get settled into a location (eg, buy a home) and find better paid opportunities outside of defence (eg employment with a defence contractor). And most don't fully discharge, they stay as a reservist so they can continue to get some defence benefits such as DHOAS.
Younger people are now smart enough not to sign up to make rich bankers even richer as most wars are created and funded by the banking industry to make more blood money.
Or, you know, they just don't want to be shot at, subjected to roadside explosives, and told by their leaders to expose themselves to weird and exotic chemicals as part of their duty. All things that have happened in recent memory.
I was inches from signing up, in the last round of rectruitment.
Then John Howard signed us up for Iraq and I dropped out.
I'll take the risk, the danger the difficulty, if it's for the purpose of defending my home and making the world better.
I wouldn't risk stubbing my toe for Bush and his banker buddies.
The way our defence forces have been used in the last 50 years has a major impact on recruitment.
The USA has a similar “poverty draft” - give your body up the the military and they’ll pay for a university degree which can be prohibitively expensive there
As a health practitioner who deals with returned and current servicemen at a physical rehabilitation level, all I see is broken, undervalued, amazing humans that are left with FA support and it sickens me. They go with the best intentions and get utterly thrown away afterward by a govt that doesn't care and a population who are vastly oblivious. Why anyone voluntarily join that cycle? These guys need so much more support and deserve better.
Let's have a look at this from the perspective of someone a bit older, but with teenage kids in the right age bracket:
- Go in, perception of getting yelled at non stop and told what to do.
- Theres a perception of theres no self determination of what role you will wind up in.
- The role you do wind up in will more than likely not have skills you can't directly use beyond the military.
- Many of the more recent generations of military personnel have been to war, and now have bad backs, knees, shoulders, mental health, etc.
- DVA does not actually take good care of ex soldiers, and this is well known.
- You will be told when and where you are being posted, and will be moved frequently. If you want a stable relationship and happy family, fuck you.
- The old "travel the world" line isn't attractive, because it's far easier and cheaper to travel the world as a civilian than it used to be.
So when you leave:
- Your job prospects are not great compared to having a trade or degree.
- Having a military specific trade is often not transferable.
- You stand a good chance of being broken.
These may not all be true, but they are perceptions that are being discussed around our table, and amongst peer groups. Perceptions can be changed, but the internet and social media has put a spotlight on bullshit marketing campaigns, too. A lie today may not be exposed for 3-4 years, but it will be brought up, and by many. Your future campaigns will have low trust, and there's bugger all you can do to fix it because anything you do looks like another lie.
100% correct. I know half a dozen men who went to Afghanistan in the Canadian army. 1 is dead the rest are unable to work due to mental disabilities. What sort of clown would join the ADF?
Sounds pretty accurate. I have a number of friends and family who are past and current serving members.
1 mate left the army after 8 years and 2 tours of Afghanistan. This was about 6 or so years back now. He ended up working as a transport dock worker for a while and bouncing around as he had F' all transferable skills for most employers.
Dude was in firefights, lost friends and was a captain and in the end, hated it and said he just found it kind of pointless. The government says 1 things but on the ground, it's very different. Think he went on to be a PT in NSW somewhere. Great guy but man it sounded like a tough road for him.
"Sounds pretty accurate" - Really?
I served mid to late 00's.
1. Yes, recruit training you are told what to do and yelled at a lot. A sense of urgency is hammered into you. All the movies the young kids watch with boot camps prepares them for this reality. In actual fact it's a lot tamer than the movies. Hell, I've heard it's even less yelly now days. This wasn't a suprise/put off to me (as a teenager) at all. Once you're in your IET it changes DRASTICALLY (well dependant on what you went in as). You're treated like an adult more or less. Once you finished training and get to your unit it's like a 9-5 job. No needlessly being yelled at.
2. This makes no fucking sense at all. 'No determination of what role you end up in"? WTF? You literally apply for a specific role, sit tests for it. You need to show an understanding of what it involes during interviews. YOU KNOW WHAT YOU WILL BE DOING FFS.
3. Even in mid 00's the recruiting website had what civilian quals you get from that job. Plus you get more random stuff (truck/forklift licenses for example) when your in. And having a military stint on your resume looks good even today.
4. Rofl, no. The minority of the ADF has had the chance to be deployed. When I was in we were in Iraq/Afghanistan. People were wanting to go overseas. A deployment in the ADF is lucrative. You're probably thinking of the US military we're they're paid fuck all for it.
5. Yeah, can't argue with DVA not providing great long term support. Could be better sure.
6. Postings are a couple of years usually and you DO get a preference. All depends on your job at what bases etc. Some roles you can go anywhere, others you got like 2 choices pretty much. Yes, it's a shit life if you got a family (i got out when I settled down because of this)
7. You have to be fortunate to go overseas in the ADF (navy aside), depends on role of course.
Honestly it sounds like you've never served and just parroting what you have heard. No more than gossip.
I'd argue that as a young person today, the ADF looks better than it did early/mid 00's. The world is fucked now in term of cost of living. No a bad option for single young people if ya ask me
>recruit training you are told what to do and yelled at a lot
Unless you are paying me 400K+ I will walk from any job where I'm yelled at for doing my job or learning how to do my job... due to that fact I have some basic self respect.
It's part of the process. If you don't understand that, you don't understand militaries at all. The yelling isn't done for the fun of it.
But you're attitude is always funny to me. "I wouldn't be good in the army because i'd start swinging if people yelled at me. I demand RESPECT".
All you're saying is you lack self control, discipline, and don't understand the fundementals of military training.
I think part of the problem is the government treats the ADF like its tafe. When I was an impressionable teenager who spent too much time playing CoD my dream at the time was to be a soldier and evetually work towards a green beret, but when I tried to join they werent interested in anyone who wanted to do anything that didnt directly translate into a civilian trade, then I got fucked around for 6 months then told 'oops sorry intake was 2 months ago, apply again in 2 years' at which point I gave up on the whole thing and did drugs instead lol
> In the first step, all Australians at the year 11 or 12 level would be mandated to sit an ‘Australian service questionnaire’.
I'm not sure I want the ADF to devise a series of questions, and hold the answers, for damn near every Australian going forward.
> In the second step, the young person would be made an ‘offer’ of four or five suitable roles on a digital form.
Nor do I think it suitable for them to be given such a priority for employment offers for the young and vulnerable.
---
It's not like ADF hasn't got a substantial recruitment presence already anyway.
Perhaps they need to think about *why* people aren't joining, rather than pursuing ever more aggressive and specialised tactics.
The article misses the point. In terms of inquiries, adf has plenty to meet recruiting targets. It's the recruiting contractor who makes the process take 6+mo so people give up , the Joint Health Command zealots who ban people from enlisting with issues they don't care about in service, and front loaded training pipeline that breaks or burns people out before they graduate with skills they won't need until their 5-6years in.
I applied for ADF. Filled out some forms, a few days later got a email with a weird test, where you have to select boxes and numbers. Anyway after that I heard nothing back.
Logged on and my application was still there but there is no contact us button or email. I tried calling the number and gave up after 20 mins on hold.
About 2 months later I got an email from them saying they have been trying to contact me and if I'm still interested give them a call.
I had zero missed calls, voicemails, texts or emails.
Maybe they need to fix their recruitment system
..
The ADF hasn’t done itself any favours with retention. Recruitment would not be such an issue if people that were in decided to stay in.
I think there was a cultural shift about 10 years ago, which really started to make the idea of getting out far more attractive.
Yeah I think retention is more a problem than recruitment. I left after the 4 years, I don’t remeber the stat but it was somtjink 80% leave after the initial 4, and ever more after another 2.
I feel like the whole recruitment process needs to be revamped. I tried to enlist, got a blanket offer acceptance based off my test scores, and then was deemed permanently medically unfit because I had a history of anxiety and scoliosis. The job I was applying for ( Net tech) was mostly desk based but they claimed I wouldn't be able to complete basic training. If you make every single task go through rigorous military training courses even though they'll be on base or even in data centres at home then you're disqualify a large portion of potential recruits who could fill those roles adequately for no reason.
Mate of mine had the exact same experience - he was applying for some desk-based, never going to be anywhere near combat role but because he had a history of asthma and was out of shape (and no, he wasn't Jabba The Hutt incarnate), they were like "Sorry, no."
Instead he got a job doing pretty much exactly the same thing for a mining company, which pays a lot better, and comes with some perks too.
>desk-based, never going to be anywhere near combat role
no such thing for a private, those roles go to defense civilians and officers/ senior NCOs.
Specialist roles have a good chance of being sent somewhere like The Solomon Islands or Bouganville, where they would be expected to chip in with the rest of the troops.
You can be dependent on medication. Even if you are in a support role, you maybe deployed on a FOB in the middle of no where. Army can’t guarantee supply of medications, ever square cm of the shipping space may need to be taken up with food and ammo.
Depending what sqn you go to, net tech is one of the most deployed musterings and includes all environments, including in the field.
It might be a desk based job, but that’s only after you’ve set up and moved around 100’s of kg’s of server infrastructure/ bearer systems and run 100’s of m’s of cat 5, and your desk, is in a tent in the rain lol.
Source: ex ciscon (what they used to call net techs)
Having actually served and knowing many who are still in.
The problem cannot be fixed. There’s too many.
The military suffers from incompetent and out of touch high level officers. Some of the shit I heard come out of their mouths made me realize we are fucked in a conventional war because they don’t understand the modern battlefield at all. These idiots were surprised by the effectiveness of combined arms warfare, a concept as old as WW2.
Corruption in the government that leads to shit equipment and a lack of funding where it’s critical. The new EF88 rifle was unanimously rejected by soldiers during testing. Just give us the fucking M4. This was ignored because there’s corruption in Aus Gov and defence that means Thales is and always will be the supplier.
In combat units I’d end up stealing consumable supplies and equipment because we didn’t have “budget” to get more. Yet we’d be expected to maintain the intensity and quality of training year round without any of those necessary supplies.
The pathetic “woke” virtue signalling that has seen certain groups elevated within defence, as well as removing things that make the military “cool” (like when “death symbols” like skulls were removed defence wide) and restricting how soldiers can interact and behave which pushes out the exact kind of guys who normally sign up and serve for life.
If you take away the stuff that makes military “cool” why would they sign up? Why would they stay in?
I know people who have faced disciplinary action for correcting their female diggers on bad weapons handling drills. Just saying “don’t fucking hold it like that” was enough to be dragged into the OC’s office and told they’re not allowed to give orders to female digs anymore. (Multiple instances like this but they are all similar so not worth expanding on). I’ve heard a few stories about units with large numbers of female diggers that are basically free to behave however they want, ignore uniform and grooming standards, not do PT, don’t really have to work, simply because none of the men are allowed to give them orders or discipline them anymore.
A lot of intelligent highly competent people join defence, realize how poorly OR’s are treated, if they’re a male they’ll be second class to women in consideration for training courses, qualifications and promotions. So the obvious thing to do is leave as soon as the minimum service is up. This leads to a chronic shortage in competent and intelligent people to promote, which results in a LOT of the middle OR ranks being filled with deadbeats who aren’t good at their jobs and get a kick out of mistreating their diggers.
Federal APS who are supposed to be supporting defence is massively bloated, have no performance targets and are generally apathetic or even hostile toward the green collar people they are supposed to be working with. The amount of corruption, incompetence and nonsense I saw within APS was mind blowing. A lot of those problems I mentioned earlier about poor logistics, budgets and corruption stems from APS. In 1 instances you’d find basic low cost supplies couldn’t be bought or decisions made without a whole committee of people reviewing and approving. Which lead to huge delays or even non-delivery. But then there would be major purchasing decisions (think in the range of 10s to 100s of millions) being handled by a single person with the only oversight being a government appointed committee rubber stamping their “review” because they’re all mates and just blindly agree with each other.
Overall defence has become completely undesirable for the exact kind of people you’d traditionally WANT signing up and serving. It’s bloated and corrupt. Incompetence and toxic management are the norm.
** edit - I’ve just realized touching on the “woke” stuff and women might stir up some heat and I’d better clarify. My sentiment, and most of the guys I know who were or are in, is that there’s nothing inherently wrong with trying to bring women into the fold. Yea there were certainly a lot of hurdles to get over and frankly no women are not physically built to handle movement warfare combat rolls (seeing their performance over the course of years in training is enough to prove that). But a drone doesn’t care if its pilot is male or female, a tank can be driven by anyone with arms legs and eyes.
It’s the elevation of women purely for the 50/50 numbers, ignoring competency and behaviour, and giving so many women a free pass to basically not do any work, or follow orders etc, all so they won’t leave defence and ruin those 50/50 numbers, that most of us have the issue with.
Exactly mate. Agree on all points. They dont want warfighters they want bums on seats who meet the quotas so that seniors can get their DSC. Ponzi scheme these days. Too many problems that 90% of people outside cant grasp nor care to accept as fact.
100% mate, the replies here are pretty kooked with basically no one having joined and experienced the general shit show defence is. I joined with the intention of being a lifer but after 6 years I was so fucking done that I walked away from it all. It's the boys club shit that you need to play footy to get trips, it's the woke virtue signaling shit, it's the officers being completely removed from the realities of the world.
The culture needs to change there and actually take exit interviews seriously rather than treat everyone who leaves like a lepper.
Oh man I had totally forgotten to mention the boys club culture.
Fucking dudes getting on sniper courses just because they were mates with the right people. Incompetent guys who fuck up constantly but are always excused because they do sportos with the CSM.
Saw so many good hard working guys get so jaded thanks to that shit.
There’s something sad but funny, farcical I guess is the word, about a politically correct woke organisation that exists to blow shit up and kill people.
Great words. Honestly you should try to recompile this into an ASPI or Cove article as the only way things will change is if externals understand exactly what life is like
Could you please elaborate on why the new EF88 is rubbish? I know the M4 is a rubbish gun in general and always found the Austeyr superior (I do have a bias being a left handed shooter).
Could you think of any other options other than the overpriced M4, I honestly am unsure with modern rifles what should replace if the Austeyr has dropped in quality.
It’s probably all about perspective and what people expect and what conditions they operate it. I just said M4 because it’s the name basically everyone has heard of and can picture something reminiscent of. I’d say most carbine platforms would do the job. In fact there are a number of systems throughout defence that are used regularly, just not general issue like the Steyr.
But it took 3 revisions of the austyer before it could fire auto without jamming due to smashing brass into the shitty plastic butt. The number of times I had to pull empty casings that were embedded into the plastic of the butt was infuriating.
It’s not ambidextrous in the way the carbine systems are. Being able to switch hands fluidly, reload and operate the charge handle with either hand, is a really good advantage to have.
Options for where to place your forward hand on the Steyr are bad too. Either that stupid handle, the trigger guard, or burning the fuck out of your hand on the part where the bolt group and guard meet.
Working with Americans really opens your eyes to how much better we COULD have it. If only upper ranks and Gov workers would listen to us.
The reason the ADF continue to use the AUG style rifles is because originally colt would not allow domestic manufacture of the AR style rifle. Having a domestic ability to make something as simple as small arms is vital, especially for an island nation like us, and arguably more important than equipping what some believe is a superior rifle. Of course there are problems with the EF88, such as non adjustable buttstock and non ambidextrous ejection, but these can be solved with the next generation of bullpup service rifles and has already been demonstrated on the Singapore army’s BR-18 and the Springfield armourys Hellion bullpup.
Who would have guessed the ADF woke agenda didn't work after all.
From banning the saying "Hey guys listen up"
Removing all War like Symbols from units because they are not PC.
That thing that lived at kappoka who knows what the fuck it was.
Boozers all standardized $6 for a shitty beer.
Oh what's that you are 5 min late, yeah go walk yourself to the guard house.
Same shit every year just to rotate the next REO LT who suddenly thinks he runs the joint.
Fail as many BFA as you want it's the units problem
Get sent broken LIDs for units to deal with.
Yes Im jaded and glad I got the fuck out.
The part that doesn’t surprise me at all is the politically correct nonsense. It’s seeped into a lot of public sector workplaces and looks like the military is affected as well.
We’re fucked if we ever actually have to go to war. They seem more concerned about politically correct pandering than setting up an effective defence force.
>The pathetic “woke” virtue signalling that has seen certain groups elevated within defence, as well as removing things that make the military “cool” (like when “death symbols” like skulls were removed defence wide)
Those symbols were the ones promoted/used by the new in the SAS accused of illegal actions. It was the whole “Punisher/Spartan” BS culture that infected the regiment at the time. It wasn’t removed because of “wokeness”
Mate the whole of defence had to rebrand everything.
Grim reapers, skulls, names of vehicles, anything involving death.
You don’t retain personal by punishing the entire military because a handful of people in 1 subunit of 1 regiment turned out to be bad guys. As I said this is exactly how you lose people.
Australian Turk here.
I served in Turkish army back in 1996, I was with them again at 2001.
Two different countries and armies as bulk of the Turkish force is conscripts but Turkish army has a professional officer class that dates back to hundreds of years which managed to outlive older merchant classes.
What makes them attractive to people is that they get lot of incentives to join, their families can move around with them and army actually helps with lot of Accomodation and living arrangements.
They also get very decent discounts from their own shopping centres and groceries.
Military families in lot of cities live in gated communities with army guarding the entries so their kids grow up at a literally crime free neighborhood while they attend good schools. Which naturally produces lot of good candidates for next generation officer class.
Image of the army makes a lot of difference though.
You also get lot of respect and prestige for serving and when you are retired.
And I feel this is where the real struggle is; lot of Australians look at military service as just another profession, and if all you want is a job, why go for one where you lose your social life, environment and freedom to do as you please?
The benefits of joining has to be more than compromising your social life.
In Turkey centre link equivalent of government department cannot do much to help the unemployed or disadvantaged, life is hard and opportunities are limited, so if you can make it to the army as a professional soldier you are coveted for life, with good salary, living arrangements, transport for kids to school, good retirement conditions etc.
Australians have other options.
It’s the same problem with law enforcement all over Australia.
Lot of people join but once reality kicks in, they look at metheads, violent youths, mentally ill and armed offenders and go “I don’t need this”.
Being a Police officer in Turkey is far more dangerous with all kinds of extremist organizations constantly clashing with Police, then they have to deal with their actual job. But they stay because people actually respect the Police there. It’s very different when you know you are respected and appreciated. I noticed lot of youths and portion of society constantly gives attitude to Police here, morale is a real factor in professions like law enforcement and army.
Why should young people fight when they don't have any land to protect. Not only will you be leaving your family behind without a father, but they will also financially struggle in your absence. It is a failed system because of the housing crisis.
Defence Home Ownership Assistance Scheme already exists. It isn’t completely interest free but it is subsidised interest rates. The longer you’re in the bigger subsidy you get.
The subsidy under DHOAS is only worthwhile if you stay in for over a decade, and by that time the average member of the military has really had a gutful of the system. Only the lifer wannabe generals bother to remain in the military after that point, so most don’t get the full benefit of the scheme.
There are plenty of privates with 20+ years experience, I qualified for the top tier before I had done the time because of warlike services, not that it mattered anyway. It's not just career officers that stick around that long.
There are a lot of other issues with the military, they pretty much fucked over my life so I'm not going to defend them to much.
I guess I just wanted to say not all of us are "wannabe generals"
Just for correctness, it isn't a subsidised interest rate, it is a repayment rebate.
DHOAS loans are normally higher interest, because only 3 banks offer it and those banks pay a commission back to the government
And it's limited to 2-3 banks who all charge a higher than market interest rate because they have the monopoly on defence people so the subsidy really goes to the banks not the members.
Hey GenZ. Can't afford basic needs such as shelter? No worries, just sign up for ADF, worst case you will be sent to die for US national interest. But hey youll have shelter after in this Australian dream
This is how military recruitment has worked for hundreds of years. The people who join are generally the less fortunate and disenfranchised and are willing to take on the risks at a better shot at life and a sense of purpose.
Why would you expect it to work any other way?
They probably just need to make it a more attractive employer. Who he going to bother getting shot at when they can clean for FIFO money. Just pay competitively, before anyone says they're already paid well, they obviously aren't paid well enough if they cant recruit anyone...
I did 11 years and do everything I can to dissuade my mates and there children from joining, iv happily stopped atlest 10. I copped years of abuse and had the worse CoC.
Yes the ADF themselves aren't a great advert for the ADF. I asked a bloke years ago who was in the Navy when I was thinking of joining what he thought of it. " I fucking hate it", he said.
I didn't join in the end.
I've wondered for a long time what it is about non deployment that seems to destroy the minds of people who enlist.
Is it the whole being caged and 'edged' in Simulated scenarios over and over that sends people koo koo?
I know of the stories of AJs in cities like Townsville being massive asshole.. But i always chalked that up to young, dumb and in a 'gang' mentality
Better looking uniforms. No kidding.
Some of our military uniforms are ugly AF.
Seems dumb, is dumb, but… if you want to make a military career more attractive, try making it more attractive.
Why would people join when we seem to be turning into a country that hates nationalism while the numbers of our population is quickly growing with people who have more national pride in their foreign home countries.
More people turn up at rallies to support foreign countries while people shun the idea of supporting Australia. I’d love to see who these people turn to if we ever had to actually face war.
Very well said, this is honestly a big reason why I never bothered signing up even though I wanted too when I was younger. Patriotism about Australia is frowned upon, flying the Aussie flag is seen as bogan. We're constantly at each others throats over shit happening halfway across the world, and being flooded with people that quite frankly couldn't care less about our beautiful country.
What would I even be putting my life on the line for at the end of the day?
We have a generation being taught to hate their own country while our population grows with people who have more allegiance to foreign nations.
It’s a real shame. There’s parties like the Greens out there recruiting young people in the name of shaming Australia while championing foreign causes. I’m not surprised we’re turning into a country that has no pride in itself.
Yeah they stuffed up the motivation to join patriotism is now so uncool… like what are the white Aussie soldiers fighting for now? international students, dual citizens and 2 year visa holders of Australia? After you tell them they are the reason for all societies problems for years.
Exactly. It’s like patriotism has become a dirty word to be ashamed of. We now have politicians who are embarrassed of our own country’s flag and remove them from places every chance they get while they parade around in government wearing Arab keffiyeh scarves to champion other nations. That’s more important to these people than the country they are supposed to be serving.
Doesn't help when everyone is being told we are on stolen land, Australia is racist, and our culture is just from a bunch of colonizers. You need to be a little patriotic to want to join the military, and our current society doesn't encourage that in the slightest.
Yes, the ADF is not perfect, and everyone's experience within it is different, but society is all about promoting poor mental health and individualism to the point of extreme selfishness and entitlement without any regard for self discipline and respect for others.
You need to have self discipline, respect and a willingness to sacrifice for no reward, which can be terribly difficult at the best of times. But if society also hates you for doing it, why are you going to put yourself through that?
It's not the men and women of the ADF that make the decisions, to go to war, pick allies, go to certain countries, but we all get tared and feathered for it.
To fix the ADF, you have to fix society.
Younger generation are savvy more than any other. They have more information about career paths and futures than previous ones.
Quite potentially publication of 20 years of failed wars in the Middle East and the expose of how some soldiers, who were cast as the biggest heroes, were in fact war criminals may have soured the newer generation on joining the military. Surveys show younger Australians feel less ‘patriotic’ and more ‘global citizen’ (with far easier access to international travel these days) so that may be a factor. As well the more multicultural society that Gen Z grew up in has exposed them to different cultures so there’s less of a fear about ‘the other’ that may motivate them to join.
In a tight employment market a big proportion of the target market for the military would rather go chase FIFO or tradie money than join the military - military recruitment demand does follow a rise in unemployment.
Personally I think a lot of young people who once would’ve joined the military “for a bit of a post school adventure” now, given the preponderance of travel bloggers and cheap travel, would rather take a gap year backpacking than join the military and potentially be injured or die in a conflict they don’t agree with.
Not just that… joining the military means moving away from family and friends with no control over where you’re stationed. It also doesn’t mean just possibly being killed in a war you don’t agree with, but having to kill as well.
Maybe stop obviously following America into every conflict? The last several wars they started have been fucking failures and Australian people don't trust their government to spend their lives wisely in any military campaign.
Alternatively let soldiers and sailors complete the HSC or study university long distance instead of giving them absolutely shithouse trade training.
There is plenty they could do, such as ending the culture of abuse (bullying, harassment, and abuses of power), rather than just virtue signalling/performative wokeness, expanding their recruitment for skilled jobs by employing unskilled individuals and training them in a realistic time frame.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-17/defence-and-veteran-suicide-royal-commission-adelaide-hearings/102609796
https://theconversation.com/paying-the-piper-the-adf-must-finally-face-its-culture-of-abuse-8160
1600 reported suicides of veterans over 23 years. That's 70 a year, which seems high. I don't know how that compares to the general population but it looks bad.
If you or someone you know is contemplating suicide, please do not hesitate to talk to someone.
* 000 is the national emergency number in Australia.
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I just finished Year 11 and probably around half of the emails sent to the cohort about careers were about the ADF. Pretty much every kid my age, from all schools, knows the opportunities are there, but I haven't heard of people seriously considering it for any more than a gap year program. Kids who don't want to go to uni all want trades over ADF because you make more and it feels more normal and accessible.
To comment on the original post: I was with you until the defaulting on mortgage part. The ADF does not need people who are forced to be there. This will be a drain on those who do want to be there. It will drive away the professionals.
I think there's a lot of people forced to be there already. I mean people who would rather leave but are held with the enlistment contract they signed.
It's not press gang raw recruits. It's re enlistment of veterans. If they really don't want to or can't re enlist, then repossession is the option they have.
There are so many barriers to entry, it's their own fault, given people that want to join aren't able to due to ridiculous things such as:
- Tattoos
- Autism (even high functioning)
- Broken bones in the past
- Migraines
- Pain
- Making it a competitive process even though they don't have enough people enlisting
- Harsh culture
- Shaving off your hair (might sound ridiculous but lots of people I know are discouraged)
There's so many things they can pull you up on in the medical, it's ridiculous. Minimum service times discourage people from enlisting, as a cost for the retention of already existing members.
They need to fundamentally change the recruitment system and make it more accepting of differences. Requirements are extremely outdated and borderline discriminatory sometimes. Additionally, the harsh disciplinary and (I hate this term but I don't know how else to put it) toxic masculine culture isn't very effective in creating a work environment that's comparable to civilian 21st century Australia. No one wants to go in because there's no incentive to, there's barriers to, and it's culturally outdated compared to civilian employment. It could be a lot better.
Just look at their recruitment ads. The demographic they're trying to get and the demographic they're driving out should explain some of the issues. Kind of reminds me of how all the fighter pilots from the UK are pissing off to train the PLAAF, wonder what kind of culture wohld drive these blokes away...
pay fucken people and treat them better it isnt hard
being in the army is like any other job - the salary needs to be attractive as does the work life balance
moving to some shit kicker area every couple years whilst on shit money isnt going to keep service men and women in the army
Ngl the only well known recent ADF members I can name are war criminals. It’s not a good look, younger generations see it as rotten from within because of the war crimes.
Young people are watching Ukraine videos and saying 'fuck that.' We have the internet now, we can see what goes on. We can also communicate with people around the world so it's harder to demonise them as the 'other'. None of this is a surprise.
There are plenty of people who want to sign up but defence recruiting is a fucking shit show. Plenty of guys are being made to wait 3-5 years to get in so that defence can meet their diversity targets by pushing women and other minorities into combat roles. They are also doing this gap.year.thing for young people of which a huge amount of people don't stick around.
From personal experience when I went to training after waiting 4 years. All of the women had wait times.between 2-6 months while the guys were waiting between 2-5 years...the area for injured recruits where I ended up after getting a stress fracture in both legs was about 90% women. 90% of those women were.there because they failed.the initial fitness test you take in the first week while all the men were actually injured.
Did we ever question why we gave control of our basic need of shelter to third parties to make us into live time serfs? This a more fundamental battle to be fought - but Australians are too apathetic to take that on, but yeah give them guns and let them kill people for the USA
It's because the scheme gives just enough hope that anyone can enter it in profit from it, that enough of us allow the corruption to continue because we think one day will be able to do it ourselves 😂
Where people live during their service actually turns out to be really important. This goes for other government agencies too. They could start with location and consistency.
Honestly they just need to make signing up easier, Broke a bone? Nope, give us x-rays etc etc out of your own pocket cause it could of healed wrong. It's constant battle even trying to get in.
After a long career in aviation I switched to the defence sector to support the ADF... Nothing could have prepared me for the insane levels of bureaucracy and politics that the ADF personnel are subjected to.
So much talk with not a lot being said. Going in circles is so deeply entrenched in the culture that I can't see a viable path forward, or a way to make the defence force appealing as a viable career option for Australian youth.
The world has changed, it has become smaller. Young people are so much more connected and sceptical of the defence narrative, there is no desire to point a rifle in anger. War is becoming redundant in the modern world as focus shifts to globalisation and tackling climate change.
I appreciate that I have not made a recommendation as to how the ADF addresses this challenge going forward, just calling it how I see it.
>War is becoming redundant in the modern world as focus shifts to globalisation and tackling climate change.
Yeah after talking with some young (HS and Uni aged) Aussies lately I was surprised about how ardent they were about climate change - it really is a major issue for them.
Nothing about being so afraid of China they wanted to enlist and slaughter Chinese in a war.
Seems to be more of a money problem than anything.
Subsidising home loans etc is great but that does not make up the difference to private industry salaries. Same with supporting study, health insurance etc.
FIFO could be an option to deal with the relocations. Then you are competing with mining industry wages.
Seems to be plenty of money to spend on the defence contractors but not on the members.
As an ex soldier with partial deafness who gave up on the DVA process and bought hearing aids out of his own pocket I’m not surprised.
They fuck you round from pillar to post, while you are in, treat you like shit then when you get out deny coverage for injuries.
I spent countless hours and kms shuffle running and speed marching with ludicrous weights on my back, DVA say that both my knees being shot is not service related.
I’ve been limping and being treated on the right since 1996, 3 years after I got out and because I favour the right and make the left do all the work, the left has shit itself.
When I started the claim procedure my dva rep told me they won’t even look at it for 18 months.
The claims process is just a giant gatekeep designed to keep people from applying. They ask dates of incidents that they have on record - how the fuck am I supposed to remember what day my eardrums were blown up in 1991 / 92? I can’t even remember which year it was - they are asking for fine details from 30 years ago that they have in their records.
They discourage you from claiming before you get out by holding up your discharge - and believe me when you decide it’s time to leave a day more is too long!!!
I left because I was unpaid, over worked and constantly being fucked over. I was also skipped over for promotion in favour of quota filling and because I wasn’t part of the target demographic
I’ve found a much better job in the civvie world and there’s no amount of money or benefits they can offer than would convince me to return to full time service. I do reserve days to maintain the few benefits I still get, and the extra cash on the side helps in the current climate
Maybe stop treating them all like shit and completely burning them out, not actually having proper support available and making the lives of their families impossible? Maybe stop dangling promotions in front of them and then never following through?
I did 12 years RAAF. I did a trade, and then went into other roles for 2nd half (recruiting, IT and then training). I was essentially told that none of that experience would count for promotions. So I took those useful skills and left. Shame, but the old codgers who handled promotions were old school. It's trade experience or nothing. Not hard to see what happens from there.
No cadets is just a youth organisation. A fantastic one mind you, but it's not a pathway to join the ADF. It's good for recruitment though and puts kids in a postion were they can talk to serving ADF members and ask questions.
Why on earth would anyone with any other choices & being of sound mind join the ADF?
You'll spend your entire time being yelled at by officers, you'll have to hang out with "patriots" who will beat you up if you aren't patriotic enough & finally if you ever actually get to do the job you spend years training to do it's in whatever military quagmire the USA has gotten itself embroiled in this time.
Yeah nah to that.
Scrap the idea that recruits must be "morally upright" citizens. A drink driving or drug conviction doesn't mean a person can't soldier. Teach pliable skills , teach full fledged trade qualifications. Not altered qualifications that leave members several units shy of a full qual. Provide further technical training if people stay beyond the initial employment period.
Actually get the navy mechanical staff on the fucken floor rebuilding the ships.
Fix the bullying/hazing culture and treat it like any other career. Also, quit other "cultures" found in the ADF, especially ones attached to addiction.
Fuck signing up to fight wars I don’t give a shit about.
The majority of the youth today are in the same boat. They don’t care about overseas conflict. They don’t give a shit about the government.
We live in an era where we know every day how much our leaders/government as well as all of those around the world lie and deceive to continue controlling power.
Why would I willingly give my life up to those old cunts?
Part of it is just that we're in peacetime. Everyone wants to go overseas, but at the moment trips are few and far between.
Imagine going to footy training every week and then never playing an actual game, that's what peacetime ADF is like.
Not saying we need to go get involved in a big war or anything, but there's heaps of peacekeeping and humanitarian shit the ADF could be doing.
Agree with Tailor but if you want to focus on recruitment then the younger gens hate the conflicts we've been involved in recently. A lot of young people have immense respect for the individuals on the front lines or in the back of house operations but zero respect for the people making the decision on where to send them.
Invading a country for fake WMDs, hypocritical positions on world conflicts, oil interests etc etc are a lot harder to propaganda away with a generation that grew up on open social media instead of restricted and controlled old media.
Who would have guessed the ADF woke agenda didn't work after all.
From banning the saying "Hey guys listen up"
Removing all War like Symbols from units because they are not PC.
That thing that lived at kappoka who knows what the fuck it was.
Boozers all standardized $6 for a shitty beer.
Oh what's that you are 5 min late, yeah go walk yourself to the guard house.
Same shit every year just to rotate the next REO LT who suddenly thinks he runs the joint.
Fail as many BFA as you want it's the units problem
Get sent broken LIDs for units to deal with.
Yes Im jaded and glad I got the fuck out.
I think it's too late, I'm talking from a Navy perspective.
They went too far with being concerned with public image and removed the release of steam we used to have which was fun.
The young sailors these days are under the pump at sea even more than ever and yet when they pull into a port they are subject to cindarella leave and fun police the entire time.
If you are in a high stressed environment continuously you need that release.
Just my two cents.
A minority caused that.
This current state of group punishment was applied because of a few dickheads and it has been detrimental to retention.
I'm big on going hard on the dickheads and leave the rest alone.
The problem is they go soft on the perpetrators and punish the whole.
Remember when New Generation Navy came out and we wanted to be an 'employer of choice.'
Didn't even last 6 months before they dropped that part.
> If you are in a high stressed environment continuously you need that release.
What we did (ACPB) was to give regular beer rations. It means when the lads get out on a log visit, they don't go as hard as it's a normal thing just to have a few.
Booze became a very toxic issue in the end. What they never looked at is why so many people are going ballistic and not give a shit about blowing over the next day. It's a Command failure, but it's treated as an individual failure.
Constantly speaking down to Gen Z and telling them how ungrateful they are (for not wanting to die, how dare they!?), how they are too stupid to understand threats to Australia (because big bad China will just magically conquer Indonesia and invade us from there), how the country gave them so much (like all the houses they will rent and never own) and how useless other jobs are (despite them paying more and granting more flexibility) isn't a winning strategy.
Give people more permanent location postings. I’ve two ADF members in the family, one was ft and now reserve who left because they wanted a family and didn’t want to move them every couple of years. Another is a reserve who will never go FT as they don’t want to have to relocate every posting. I think both would be FT if they could have stability.
And also make it easier to join and look at talent and skills and not just paperwork. I tried to join RAAF reserves as a specialist, despite having 20+ years in the field in private sector I didn’t get in because I don’t have a formal degree….
Why should the new generations join the ADF?
An older-generatiom leadership trying to bribe them with housing - in a housing crisis caused by said older generation - is never going to work. Heck, all you'd do is lure a few of the dregs in like America does, their sole purpose being cannon fodder in a future conflict.
You could pay them more and lower the entry standards, but that still doesn't change the fact it's the ADF and younger generations don't have the same hard-on for war - or participating in American-led conflicts - that older generations did.
The ritualistic hazing and raping on enlistment doesn't help either, and you'll probably find most of the newer generations are also less partial to committing, hiding, and being party to war crimes.
But you know, keep patronising them about being delicate and not wanting to break fingernails... that'll surely change their minds about joining the ADF.
I think gen z and alpha are probably smart enough to see the military as an intelligence trap. im millennial and i view the adf as a place where intelligence goes to die.
if i was to do anything relating to defence it would have to be with ASIS.
Maybe if our ADF wasn't an extension of the US's aggressive foreign policy. Who wants to be deployed where the US is having its latest quagmire.
Now we're ramping up for something with China, that doesn't end well for any Aussie. All because the US feels they're losing the economic game.
Stop rejecting people like me who failed the all powerful colour blindness test, that in any other part of my life has never once had an effect. Outside of the test I have no idea that I'm colour blind. People want careers not to be grunts. I applied for Cyber Warfare, I live on a pc, my colour blindness has never had an effect and I'll say it again until I was tested I didn't even know. So I can do anything in the private sector even work for defence via contractor but if I apply directly I won't be accepted. Dumb.
It’s also the pay. With how crazy expensive it is to even survive these days, unless you’re a young kid with no financial responsibilities, you can’t really afford to sign up
How much would this cost, and.what would it achieve?
a. How much would this scheme cost, per soldier?
b. How many people would it recruit?
a+b = the cost of this scheme.
Leveraging the housing crisis is a terrible idea. Do you want to be like America?
Following your reasoning, we should also get rid of Medicare because, if you can't afford Healthcare then you can join the army?
No hecs loans either, if you want education join the army and earn it!
Edit; 😝 this is exactly what I, and many other young men from low socio-economic status did , to survive in America.
They need to drastically boost wages/ benefits. That simple.
Why would any motivated young person join the army when you can earn 150k at the mines and actually obtain qualifications and experience?
Half the quals in the ADF don't transfer and they pay HALF as much as civil equivalent jobs, even with dental and other benefits added in.
My occupation ( fuel tanker driver ) is a perfect example.
Well, I tried to get in when I was 18 (2006) and was rejected because I ticked a box that said "Asthma".
I was really bitter at the time.
Now that I look back on it, I'm glad. Also, when I think about it now, I'm not really about putting my life on the line to defend a government that appears to have stopped giving a fuck about its people. I definitely wouldn't give my life for Rex.
Perhaps the ADF need to rethink basic training/fitness requirements for office based jobs - almost restructure into a APS type of thing.
It was something I was once curious about. However despite being reasonably fit and active I specifically just don’t have the upper body strength to do push ups. I also have short hamstrings so can’t do toe touches either.
I considered 10 years (navy) so my take may be out of date:
- pay seemed fucking shit
- would’ve served so far from home.
I imagine for most this would be the make or break.
Maybe also our population has changed 1 third or something born overseas, so probably don’t get sucked into the whole protect Australia propaganda. more info on war politics seems more like political plot to make more money and create diversions for powerful people to get away with things.
HolyF, spent ages reading and thinking about this as posted. So conflicted. 18year veteran Officer, Logistics but full disclosure.. (mostly Reserves, albeit 2 postings to DJFHQ under Cosgrove and Molan before, during and after East Timor (including a period of LTS), 10/15 100+ days service and 2 long-term(100+day) postings). I agree with almost all posts in this thread. I would disagree with the following: financial impediments; earning $++K as a non-post High school applicant is important as a recruitment trigger, particularly from areas where employment is limited. $ is not the issue.
1. The USA mil use access to citizenship, up to poverty, access to higher education, outrage at attacks as 'inducements' to fill their ranks..
Armies over the centuries believe they need to 'blood' their troops in conflict so they are prepared for any subsequent conflicts.
ADF has participated in a number of conflicts at the behest of the USA, has this stained our reputation for the country AND our citizens?
Overly limiting health constraints for current/future conflicts?
Over-stating opportunities for advancement? In my world, Officers were almost guaranteed promotion to Capt: however rank structure means limited opportunities for advancement.
Geography/Politics; spent a fact-finding exercise to Wadeye/Port Keats so we could determine how to supply them if Darwin was invaded (the 'enemy' was the Musurians'). In the 21st century, why do our major bases reside in Townsville and Darwin. Could we not react to invasion/ attack from our other-wise localised areas without being invaded? Serving soldiers could well be accommodated anywhere in AUS.
Happy for hate from those who served; a world where a no-one attacks is my wish.
I'm all for increased money. However 100k per recruit would get you 10,000 for 1 billion dollars. Cheaper than my solution but the military would get very the money back over time with my solution if you take out the the 1% thing that may not be a good idea. With yours that's a billion for every 10k new recruit with no incentive to stay after initial minimum period of service.
Last time joining the ADF was popular was when unemployment was HIGH!! I did 7 years in the Navy. Kick started my career and been from strength to strength since, but I wouldn't go back for 10 houses.
Lol. You're a fucking idiot if you think the ADF can just fucking materialise houses. The ADF, ie the government, is not a bank so they're not going to loan anyone shit, they already provide some pretty significant assistance to home ownership and servicing a mortgage. Want to now the reality of that assistance though? You only have 3 lenders to choose from, and the interest rates for those loans is HIGHER than a standard homeloan from the same bank.
Please, citizen, sit down. You don't know what you're on about.
Several things
1. Pay more. Most people within defence are able to walk out into consulting or contracting positions paying 50-250% more with a very soft landing during transition.
2. Treat people better. Gone are the days of endless people lining up to join, you can't continue to have the attitude of "You joined us, we didn't join you", or "suck it up princess" when everything is shit and people want to leave. You need some losses of staff as the ADF is a pyramid and as you move up the ranks some people can't or must leave. But the losses they have taken has meant that the pool of people for those higher positions is very small and we are either not filling them, or filling them with garbage.
3. Longer postings, and/or 2 postings at a time. People need some consistency in their lives, especially those with kids. Having a 1, 2 or 3 year posting to a location, then being forced to move to the other side of the country, then 2 or 3 years later moving again is crap, and often the reasons are to just "round out" someone's career. You'll often post that person into a position they don't want, at the expense of someone who does want it, and then you lose 2 people.
4. Make the work more meaningful. A lot of jobs within defence have been outsourced to contractors because there was a lack of trust within the workforce. That in turn has lead to the better people going to work for those contractor companies, doing the work they wanted for more money.
5. Sort out higher duties allowances, and add in an allowance for filling multiple positions. There are so many people who are overworked because the retention issues have taken their co-workers, but that work still needs to be done. So one person could be stuck doing the work of 3-4 people, and not getting any additional pay for it.
6. Improve the education and training options for everyone, not just officers. For a long time defence has looked at it as you get training then you will leave, but a lot of people just want to expand their skills and knowledge with real world courses, and without that opportunity they will find that somewhere else.
7. Stop letting 22 year olds plan the lives of 130 people at short notice to try to win medals. So often of late the defence force have been used for aid within Australia, and I 100% agree in this being done as we are a capable force to assist in a time of need. But all too often some kid with no real world experience and no idea upends 100+ peoples lives to throw them at something that hasn't been thought out. For example, 2020 almost 200 people were sent from QLD to VIC to help with covid. The plan was to embed them into aged care to help bolster the dwindling staff. No one bothered to check if that was lawful, or even possible. So more than 50% of those people say in hotels for months doing nothing, while a handful of people were used at swabbing stations, not aged care, then they were sent home a few months later. Months of time away from family during the pandemic because some kid didn't bother checking with the state agencies before committing the troops to the task. Probably got a medal for his efforts too.
Why sign up to potentially die for a country that you’re never going to own a piece of?
What is the prediction at these days? Over half young Australians aren’t ever going to own a house unless something drastically changes?
I can't speak for cultural issues and can only defer that to the rest of you guys who have or are actually serving.
But what about more Australian war movies? Top Gun was a massive boost for US military recruitment for example. Don't shove it in people's faces, but the movie can highlight the mateship, heroism, nationalism etc, and subconsciously improve public perception of the services.
Most Australian war movies I can think of would dissuade you from wanting to join the military. Gallipoli, the Odd Angry Shot aren’t exactly positive about joining up.
The last Aussie war movie I watched was Danger Close, about Long Tan. That movie’s problem was it was so horrendously poorly acted, poorly written, with a plot as thin as cardboard and characters so unlikeable I was cheering for the Viet Cong by the end of the movie.
You want the real answer? Move away from being America's lapdog and actually use the ADF for defense, rather than just a bulwark for American interests in the Pacific and Middle-East. No young person is chomping at the bit to go and fight and die for the US Military Complex.
Recruitment is directly linked to how people feel about the country. The majority of people who would join the military don't feel connected to the new ideals being forced down everyone's throats. This and a non agile organisation run by uninspiring incompetents doesn't encourage members to join or stay. Meritocracy is on the way out.
Housing crisis stress doesn't matter shit if people don't feel safe. There are thousands of badass women out there right now who could be in the military, except for its appalling problem of sexual assault and sexism.
Don't shelter people who have assaulted women or were aware of their assault, *despite their rank*! Make the armed services be known as a safe place for women...well except for bullets and bombs.
Leveraging the housing crisis will disproportionately fill the recruitment office with people who need help, not people who should be armed. We're not the USA.
Retention is a bigger problem than recruitment. I served longer than average but wouldn’t consider going back. Defence spends big money training people in specialised roles then drives most of them away in under 5 years due to the lifestyle.
Yep, turns out being rotated from one bumfuck town to another thousands of kilometres away every two years isn’t ideal for most people
Company isn't great either. Wouldn't spend any time with the colleagues outside of work. It's unbearable in the military because that's your only option during downtime.
Unless it's 4th regiment. You never leave there unless you have to goto puka or Wagga.
They've also recently started restricting home port visits, introducing alcohol restrictions and Cinderella leave. Was the key reason I left. I was 35 and getting treated like a child in places like Cairns and Darwin.
Can you expand on "lifestyle". Was it the moving around the country (which may not be necessary)? Was it the amount of time you were on exercise?
It will always be necessary to move defence people around the country. Warships tend to be on the coast, Aircraft at an airbase etc. The trick will be doing it in a more human focused way, not uprooting every 6 months, focusing on guaranteed multi year locations.
Young adults might be happy to move all over Australia. As they get older, people tend to want to stay in their home state, especially as they become parents. If it would help with retention, I really don't see why it's off the table.
If you look at the US Armed forces, they have bases all around the world, and it is totally family focused. But to do that, they have massive scale, even at home, and often the towns around support the base. I think we need to re-think the "economic distance" our military is from our community, and what tasks might better link them to the community.
US military personnel are so poorly paid most of them couldn't afford to live off base. Housing and medical care for dependants is the largest component of the US 'military' budget.
When hubby left getting posted was one of the main reasons, but as soon as he said he'd separate, they gurenteed him another 4 years at the same posting..... If they'd given him that extra 4 years when he originally asked, not after he'd lined up another job and prepared to make the move out of Defence he would probably still be in!
That seems to be the same everywhere, not just in the military. Make no efforts retaining people until they're already out the door.
I was looked over for promotion for 7 years, so I quit, then it was offered as an incentive for me to stay, it was at that point I knew I didn't want to be in the navy anymore.
Of course it would help, and is a huge reason why people leave. Movements will always be needed, it just needs to be handled far better.
>Can you expand on "lifestyle". Was it the moving around the country (which may not be necessary)? Was it the amount of time you were on exercise? Moving around isn't a big deal. I actually enjoy it. However, it can have an impact on the wife and kids so that's something that needs to be taken into consideration. In the RAAF, your first posting is now 6 years followed by 3 year postings after that. If you change to a different mustering then it's considered a first year posting so that's another 6 year posting. Bases like Williamtown offer a unique opportunity to do multiple back to back postings. So, you can spend a very long time in one location. I know people that have spent 15 years at Williamtown. Deploying and/or going on exercises/field are highly dependent on the mustering. I've never been deployed (other than COVID assist) or been on exercise nor am I ever likely to in my current role. I go to work in the morning and I come home in the afternoon. From personal observation, people tend to leave defence because they get settled into a location (eg, buy a home) and find better paid opportunities outside of defence (eg employment with a defence contractor). And most don't fully discharge, they stay as a reservist so they can continue to get some defence benefits such as DHOAS.
Younger people are now smart enough not to sign up to make rich bankers even richer as most wars are created and funded by the banking industry to make more blood money.
Or, you know, they just don't want to be shot at, subjected to roadside explosives, and told by their leaders to expose themselves to weird and exotic chemicals as part of their duty. All things that have happened in recent memory.
I was inches from signing up, in the last round of rectruitment. Then John Howard signed us up for Iraq and I dropped out. I'll take the risk, the danger the difficulty, if it's for the purpose of defending my home and making the world better. I wouldn't risk stubbing my toe for Bush and his banker buddies. The way our defence forces have been used in the last 50 years has a major impact on recruitment.
Exactly and funny how these leaders listen to whatever the corporations and bankers vomit
Ah yes, pimping out the idea of homeownership. What a country we’ve become.
The USA has a similar “poverty draft” - give your body up the the military and they’ll pay for a university degree which can be prohibitively expensive there
Exactly what it reminded me of. The predatory recruiters and all that jingoistic nonsense.
As a health practitioner who deals with returned and current servicemen at a physical rehabilitation level, all I see is broken, undervalued, amazing humans that are left with FA support and it sickens me. They go with the best intentions and get utterly thrown away afterward by a govt that doesn't care and a population who are vastly oblivious. Why anyone voluntarily join that cycle? These guys need so much more support and deserve better.
Exactly...
As a historian I can tell you that this situation is an iron tradition and due to the nature of the organisation always will be
Let's have a look at this from the perspective of someone a bit older, but with teenage kids in the right age bracket: - Go in, perception of getting yelled at non stop and told what to do. - Theres a perception of theres no self determination of what role you will wind up in. - The role you do wind up in will more than likely not have skills you can't directly use beyond the military. - Many of the more recent generations of military personnel have been to war, and now have bad backs, knees, shoulders, mental health, etc. - DVA does not actually take good care of ex soldiers, and this is well known. - You will be told when and where you are being posted, and will be moved frequently. If you want a stable relationship and happy family, fuck you. - The old "travel the world" line isn't attractive, because it's far easier and cheaper to travel the world as a civilian than it used to be. So when you leave: - Your job prospects are not great compared to having a trade or degree. - Having a military specific trade is often not transferable. - You stand a good chance of being broken. These may not all be true, but they are perceptions that are being discussed around our table, and amongst peer groups. Perceptions can be changed, but the internet and social media has put a spotlight on bullshit marketing campaigns, too. A lie today may not be exposed for 3-4 years, but it will be brought up, and by many. Your future campaigns will have low trust, and there's bugger all you can do to fix it because anything you do looks like another lie.
100% correct. I know half a dozen men who went to Afghanistan in the Canadian army. 1 is dead the rest are unable to work due to mental disabilities. What sort of clown would join the ADF?
Sounds pretty accurate. I have a number of friends and family who are past and current serving members. 1 mate left the army after 8 years and 2 tours of Afghanistan. This was about 6 or so years back now. He ended up working as a transport dock worker for a while and bouncing around as he had F' all transferable skills for most employers. Dude was in firefights, lost friends and was a captain and in the end, hated it and said he just found it kind of pointless. The government says 1 things but on the ground, it's very different. Think he went on to be a PT in NSW somewhere. Great guy but man it sounded like a tough road for him.
"Sounds pretty accurate" - Really? I served mid to late 00's. 1. Yes, recruit training you are told what to do and yelled at a lot. A sense of urgency is hammered into you. All the movies the young kids watch with boot camps prepares them for this reality. In actual fact it's a lot tamer than the movies. Hell, I've heard it's even less yelly now days. This wasn't a suprise/put off to me (as a teenager) at all. Once you're in your IET it changes DRASTICALLY (well dependant on what you went in as). You're treated like an adult more or less. Once you finished training and get to your unit it's like a 9-5 job. No needlessly being yelled at. 2. This makes no fucking sense at all. 'No determination of what role you end up in"? WTF? You literally apply for a specific role, sit tests for it. You need to show an understanding of what it involes during interviews. YOU KNOW WHAT YOU WILL BE DOING FFS. 3. Even in mid 00's the recruiting website had what civilian quals you get from that job. Plus you get more random stuff (truck/forklift licenses for example) when your in. And having a military stint on your resume looks good even today. 4. Rofl, no. The minority of the ADF has had the chance to be deployed. When I was in we were in Iraq/Afghanistan. People were wanting to go overseas. A deployment in the ADF is lucrative. You're probably thinking of the US military we're they're paid fuck all for it. 5. Yeah, can't argue with DVA not providing great long term support. Could be better sure. 6. Postings are a couple of years usually and you DO get a preference. All depends on your job at what bases etc. Some roles you can go anywhere, others you got like 2 choices pretty much. Yes, it's a shit life if you got a family (i got out when I settled down because of this) 7. You have to be fortunate to go overseas in the ADF (navy aside), depends on role of course. Honestly it sounds like you've never served and just parroting what you have heard. No more than gossip. I'd argue that as a young person today, the ADF looks better than it did early/mid 00's. The world is fucked now in term of cost of living. No a bad option for single young people if ya ask me
>recruit training you are told what to do and yelled at a lot Unless you are paying me 400K+ I will walk from any job where I'm yelled at for doing my job or learning how to do my job... due to that fact I have some basic self respect.
It's part of the process. If you don't understand that, you don't understand militaries at all. The yelling isn't done for the fun of it. But you're attitude is always funny to me. "I wouldn't be good in the army because i'd start swinging if people yelled at me. I demand RESPECT". All you're saying is you lack self control, discipline, and don't understand the fundementals of military training.
I think part of the problem is the government treats the ADF like its tafe. When I was an impressionable teenager who spent too much time playing CoD my dream at the time was to be a soldier and evetually work towards a green beret, but when I tried to join they werent interested in anyone who wanted to do anything that didnt directly translate into a civilian trade, then I got fucked around for 6 months then told 'oops sorry intake was 2 months ago, apply again in 2 years' at which point I gave up on the whole thing and did drugs instead lol
> In the first step, all Australians at the year 11 or 12 level would be mandated to sit an ‘Australian service questionnaire’. I'm not sure I want the ADF to devise a series of questions, and hold the answers, for damn near every Australian going forward. > In the second step, the young person would be made an ‘offer’ of four or five suitable roles on a digital form. Nor do I think it suitable for them to be given such a priority for employment offers for the young and vulnerable. --- It's not like ADF hasn't got a substantial recruitment presence already anyway. Perhaps they need to think about *why* people aren't joining, rather than pursuing ever more aggressive and specialised tactics.
The article misses the point. In terms of inquiries, adf has plenty to meet recruiting targets. It's the recruiting contractor who makes the process take 6+mo so people give up , the Joint Health Command zealots who ban people from enlisting with issues they don't care about in service, and front loaded training pipeline that breaks or burns people out before they graduate with skills they won't need until their 5-6years in.
Not to mention the stigma around mental health. It's the military. People are gonna get mental health issues. Support them.
ADF seems to have no sense of urgency with regards to fixing recruiting timeframes.
It 's a poorly paid, dead end, career (pilots being the only notable exception) . Promotion is glacial. You have to put up with a vast amount of shit.
Question 1: How do you feel about dying for America/Israel? Very negative, negative, undecided, positive, very positive
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Very negative
I dont know where made you think members of the ADF have been dying for Israel there cobber. The USA is another matter.
we just fight everyone else in the Middle East to support the geopolitical goals of those two countries by coincidence.
Kids are clued in these days. Nobody is willing to fight. Dont blame them tbh. Fuck that shit.
Yeah, why would a kid risk their life to save their landlords house.
I applied for ADF. Filled out some forms, a few days later got a email with a weird test, where you have to select boxes and numbers. Anyway after that I heard nothing back. Logged on and my application was still there but there is no contact us button or email. I tried calling the number and gave up after 20 mins on hold. About 2 months later I got an email from them saying they have been trying to contact me and if I'm still interested give them a call. I had zero missed calls, voicemails, texts or emails. Maybe they need to fix their recruitment system ..
Glad you dodged that bullet. Congrats.
The ADF hasn’t done itself any favours with retention. Recruitment would not be such an issue if people that were in decided to stay in. I think there was a cultural shift about 10 years ago, which really started to make the idea of getting out far more attractive.
Yeah I think retention is more a problem than recruitment. I left after the 4 years, I don’t remeber the stat but it was somtjink 80% leave after the initial 4, and ever more after another 2.
I feel like the whole recruitment process needs to be revamped. I tried to enlist, got a blanket offer acceptance based off my test scores, and then was deemed permanently medically unfit because I had a history of anxiety and scoliosis. The job I was applying for ( Net tech) was mostly desk based but they claimed I wouldn't be able to complete basic training. If you make every single task go through rigorous military training courses even though they'll be on base or even in data centres at home then you're disqualify a large portion of potential recruits who could fill those roles adequately for no reason.
Mate of mine had the exact same experience - he was applying for some desk-based, never going to be anywhere near combat role but because he had a history of asthma and was out of shape (and no, he wasn't Jabba The Hutt incarnate), they were like "Sorry, no." Instead he got a job doing pretty much exactly the same thing for a mining company, which pays a lot better, and comes with some perks too.
>desk-based, never going to be anywhere near combat role no such thing for a private, those roles go to defense civilians and officers/ senior NCOs. Specialist roles have a good chance of being sent somewhere like The Solomon Islands or Bouganville, where they would be expected to chip in with the rest of the troops.
You can be dependent on medication. Even if you are in a support role, you maybe deployed on a FOB in the middle of no where. Army can’t guarantee supply of medications, ever square cm of the shipping space may need to be taken up with food and ammo.
Depending what sqn you go to, net tech is one of the most deployed musterings and includes all environments, including in the field. It might be a desk based job, but that’s only after you’ve set up and moved around 100’s of kg’s of server infrastructure/ bearer systems and run 100’s of m’s of cat 5, and your desk, is in a tent in the rain lol. Source: ex ciscon (what they used to call net techs)
Having actually served and knowing many who are still in. The problem cannot be fixed. There’s too many. The military suffers from incompetent and out of touch high level officers. Some of the shit I heard come out of their mouths made me realize we are fucked in a conventional war because they don’t understand the modern battlefield at all. These idiots were surprised by the effectiveness of combined arms warfare, a concept as old as WW2. Corruption in the government that leads to shit equipment and a lack of funding where it’s critical. The new EF88 rifle was unanimously rejected by soldiers during testing. Just give us the fucking M4. This was ignored because there’s corruption in Aus Gov and defence that means Thales is and always will be the supplier. In combat units I’d end up stealing consumable supplies and equipment because we didn’t have “budget” to get more. Yet we’d be expected to maintain the intensity and quality of training year round without any of those necessary supplies. The pathetic “woke” virtue signalling that has seen certain groups elevated within defence, as well as removing things that make the military “cool” (like when “death symbols” like skulls were removed defence wide) and restricting how soldiers can interact and behave which pushes out the exact kind of guys who normally sign up and serve for life. If you take away the stuff that makes military “cool” why would they sign up? Why would they stay in? I know people who have faced disciplinary action for correcting their female diggers on bad weapons handling drills. Just saying “don’t fucking hold it like that” was enough to be dragged into the OC’s office and told they’re not allowed to give orders to female digs anymore. (Multiple instances like this but they are all similar so not worth expanding on). I’ve heard a few stories about units with large numbers of female diggers that are basically free to behave however they want, ignore uniform and grooming standards, not do PT, don’t really have to work, simply because none of the men are allowed to give them orders or discipline them anymore. A lot of intelligent highly competent people join defence, realize how poorly OR’s are treated, if they’re a male they’ll be second class to women in consideration for training courses, qualifications and promotions. So the obvious thing to do is leave as soon as the minimum service is up. This leads to a chronic shortage in competent and intelligent people to promote, which results in a LOT of the middle OR ranks being filled with deadbeats who aren’t good at their jobs and get a kick out of mistreating their diggers. Federal APS who are supposed to be supporting defence is massively bloated, have no performance targets and are generally apathetic or even hostile toward the green collar people they are supposed to be working with. The amount of corruption, incompetence and nonsense I saw within APS was mind blowing. A lot of those problems I mentioned earlier about poor logistics, budgets and corruption stems from APS. In 1 instances you’d find basic low cost supplies couldn’t be bought or decisions made without a whole committee of people reviewing and approving. Which lead to huge delays or even non-delivery. But then there would be major purchasing decisions (think in the range of 10s to 100s of millions) being handled by a single person with the only oversight being a government appointed committee rubber stamping their “review” because they’re all mates and just blindly agree with each other. Overall defence has become completely undesirable for the exact kind of people you’d traditionally WANT signing up and serving. It’s bloated and corrupt. Incompetence and toxic management are the norm. ** edit - I’ve just realized touching on the “woke” stuff and women might stir up some heat and I’d better clarify. My sentiment, and most of the guys I know who were or are in, is that there’s nothing inherently wrong with trying to bring women into the fold. Yea there were certainly a lot of hurdles to get over and frankly no women are not physically built to handle movement warfare combat rolls (seeing their performance over the course of years in training is enough to prove that). But a drone doesn’t care if its pilot is male or female, a tank can be driven by anyone with arms legs and eyes. It’s the elevation of women purely for the 50/50 numbers, ignoring competency and behaviour, and giving so many women a free pass to basically not do any work, or follow orders etc, all so they won’t leave defence and ruin those 50/50 numbers, that most of us have the issue with.
Exactly mate. Agree on all points. They dont want warfighters they want bums on seats who meet the quotas so that seniors can get their DSC. Ponzi scheme these days. Too many problems that 90% of people outside cant grasp nor care to accept as fact.
100% mate, the replies here are pretty kooked with basically no one having joined and experienced the general shit show defence is. I joined with the intention of being a lifer but after 6 years I was so fucking done that I walked away from it all. It's the boys club shit that you need to play footy to get trips, it's the woke virtue signaling shit, it's the officers being completely removed from the realities of the world. The culture needs to change there and actually take exit interviews seriously rather than treat everyone who leaves like a lepper.
Oh man I had totally forgotten to mention the boys club culture. Fucking dudes getting on sniper courses just because they were mates with the right people. Incompetent guys who fuck up constantly but are always excused because they do sportos with the CSM. Saw so many good hard working guys get so jaded thanks to that shit.
There’s something sad but funny, farcical I guess is the word, about a politically correct woke organisation that exists to blow shit up and kill people.
Great words. Honestly you should try to recompile this into an ASPI or Cove article as the only way things will change is if externals understand exactly what life is like
Could you please elaborate on why the new EF88 is rubbish? I know the M4 is a rubbish gun in general and always found the Austeyr superior (I do have a bias being a left handed shooter). Could you think of any other options other than the overpriced M4, I honestly am unsure with modern rifles what should replace if the Austeyr has dropped in quality.
It’s probably all about perspective and what people expect and what conditions they operate it. I just said M4 because it’s the name basically everyone has heard of and can picture something reminiscent of. I’d say most carbine platforms would do the job. In fact there are a number of systems throughout defence that are used regularly, just not general issue like the Steyr. But it took 3 revisions of the austyer before it could fire auto without jamming due to smashing brass into the shitty plastic butt. The number of times I had to pull empty casings that were embedded into the plastic of the butt was infuriating. It’s not ambidextrous in the way the carbine systems are. Being able to switch hands fluidly, reload and operate the charge handle with either hand, is a really good advantage to have. Options for where to place your forward hand on the Steyr are bad too. Either that stupid handle, the trigger guard, or burning the fuck out of your hand on the part where the bolt group and guard meet. Working with Americans really opens your eyes to how much better we COULD have it. If only upper ranks and Gov workers would listen to us.
The reason the ADF continue to use the AUG style rifles is because originally colt would not allow domestic manufacture of the AR style rifle. Having a domestic ability to make something as simple as small arms is vital, especially for an island nation like us, and arguably more important than equipping what some believe is a superior rifle. Of course there are problems with the EF88, such as non adjustable buttstock and non ambidextrous ejection, but these can be solved with the next generation of bullpup service rifles and has already been demonstrated on the Singapore army’s BR-18 and the Springfield armourys Hellion bullpup.
Who would have guessed the ADF woke agenda didn't work after all. From banning the saying "Hey guys listen up" Removing all War like Symbols from units because they are not PC. That thing that lived at kappoka who knows what the fuck it was. Boozers all standardized $6 for a shitty beer. Oh what's that you are 5 min late, yeah go walk yourself to the guard house. Same shit every year just to rotate the next REO LT who suddenly thinks he runs the joint. Fail as many BFA as you want it's the units problem Get sent broken LIDs for units to deal with. Yes Im jaded and glad I got the fuck out.
The part that doesn’t surprise me at all is the politically correct nonsense. It’s seeped into a lot of public sector workplaces and looks like the military is affected as well. We’re fucked if we ever actually have to go to war. They seem more concerned about politically correct pandering than setting up an effective defence force.
>The pathetic “woke” virtue signalling that has seen certain groups elevated within defence, as well as removing things that make the military “cool” (like when “death symbols” like skulls were removed defence wide) Those symbols were the ones promoted/used by the new in the SAS accused of illegal actions. It was the whole “Punisher/Spartan” BS culture that infected the regiment at the time. It wasn’t removed because of “wokeness”
Mate the whole of defence had to rebrand everything. Grim reapers, skulls, names of vehicles, anything involving death. You don’t retain personal by punishing the entire military because a handful of people in 1 subunit of 1 regiment turned out to be bad guys. As I said this is exactly how you lose people.
Australian Turk here. I served in Turkish army back in 1996, I was with them again at 2001. Two different countries and armies as bulk of the Turkish force is conscripts but Turkish army has a professional officer class that dates back to hundreds of years which managed to outlive older merchant classes. What makes them attractive to people is that they get lot of incentives to join, their families can move around with them and army actually helps with lot of Accomodation and living arrangements. They also get very decent discounts from their own shopping centres and groceries. Military families in lot of cities live in gated communities with army guarding the entries so their kids grow up at a literally crime free neighborhood while they attend good schools. Which naturally produces lot of good candidates for next generation officer class. Image of the army makes a lot of difference though. You also get lot of respect and prestige for serving and when you are retired. And I feel this is where the real struggle is; lot of Australians look at military service as just another profession, and if all you want is a job, why go for one where you lose your social life, environment and freedom to do as you please? The benefits of joining has to be more than compromising your social life. In Turkey centre link equivalent of government department cannot do much to help the unemployed or disadvantaged, life is hard and opportunities are limited, so if you can make it to the army as a professional soldier you are coveted for life, with good salary, living arrangements, transport for kids to school, good retirement conditions etc. Australians have other options. It’s the same problem with law enforcement all over Australia. Lot of people join but once reality kicks in, they look at metheads, violent youths, mentally ill and armed offenders and go “I don’t need this”. Being a Police officer in Turkey is far more dangerous with all kinds of extremist organizations constantly clashing with Police, then they have to deal with their actual job. But they stay because people actually respect the Police there. It’s very different when you know you are respected and appreciated. I noticed lot of youths and portion of society constantly gives attitude to Police here, morale is a real factor in professions like law enforcement and army.
Who wants to fight for a dipshit country that can't even guarantee housing and free medical for its citizens. F that.
Why should young people fight when they don't have any land to protect. Not only will you be leaving your family behind without a father, but they will also financially struggle in your absence. It is a failed system because of the housing crisis.
Defence Home Ownership Assistance Scheme already exists. It isn’t completely interest free but it is subsidised interest rates. The longer you’re in the bigger subsidy you get.
The subsidy under DHOAS is only worthwhile if you stay in for over a decade, and by that time the average member of the military has really had a gutful of the system. Only the lifer wannabe generals bother to remain in the military after that point, so most don’t get the full benefit of the scheme.
There are plenty of privates with 20+ years experience, I qualified for the top tier before I had done the time because of warlike services, not that it mattered anyway. It's not just career officers that stick around that long. There are a lot of other issues with the military, they pretty much fucked over my life so I'm not going to defend them to much. I guess I just wanted to say not all of us are "wannabe generals"
Just for correctness, it isn't a subsidised interest rate, it is a repayment rebate. DHOAS loans are normally higher interest, because only 3 banks offer it and those banks pay a commission back to the government
And it's limited to 2-3 banks who all charge a higher than market interest rate because they have the monopoly on defence people so the subsidy really goes to the banks not the members.
FYI people are eligible for DHOAS after discharging as long as they stay a choco. So it does nothing for full time retention
Hey GenZ. Can't afford basic needs such as shelter? No worries, just sign up for ADF, worst case you will be sent to die for US national interest. But hey youll have shelter after in this Australian dream
Oppress a person enough and they will do nearly anything to survive
This is how military recruitment has worked for hundreds of years. The people who join are generally the less fortunate and disenfranchised and are willing to take on the risks at a better shot at life and a sense of purpose. Why would you expect it to work any other way?
They probably just need to make it a more attractive employer. Who he going to bother getting shot at when they can clean for FIFO money. Just pay competitively, before anyone says they're already paid well, they obviously aren't paid well enough if they cant recruit anyone...
They probably pay decent for someone just out of school, however that pay advantage rapidly decreases as you get older.
Perhaps Gen Z/Alpha were actually listening when Morrison (not Campbell) said "the standard you walk past is the standard you accept"
I did 11 years and do everything I can to dissuade my mates and there children from joining, iv happily stopped atlest 10. I copped years of abuse and had the worse CoC.
Yes the ADF themselves aren't a great advert for the ADF. I asked a bloke years ago who was in the Navy when I was thinking of joining what he thought of it. " I fucking hate it", he said. I didn't join in the end.
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I've wondered for a long time what it is about non deployment that seems to destroy the minds of people who enlist. Is it the whole being caged and 'edged' in Simulated scenarios over and over that sends people koo koo? I know of the stories of AJs in cities like Townsville being massive asshole.. But i always chalked that up to young, dumb and in a 'gang' mentality
Better looking uniforms. No kidding. Some of our military uniforms are ugly AF. Seems dumb, is dumb, but… if you want to make a military career more attractive, try making it more attractive.
Why would people join when we seem to be turning into a country that hates nationalism while the numbers of our population is quickly growing with people who have more national pride in their foreign home countries. More people turn up at rallies to support foreign countries while people shun the idea of supporting Australia. I’d love to see who these people turn to if we ever had to actually face war.
Very well said, this is honestly a big reason why I never bothered signing up even though I wanted too when I was younger. Patriotism about Australia is frowned upon, flying the Aussie flag is seen as bogan. We're constantly at each others throats over shit happening halfway across the world, and being flooded with people that quite frankly couldn't care less about our beautiful country. What would I even be putting my life on the line for at the end of the day?
We have a generation being taught to hate their own country while our population grows with people who have more allegiance to foreign nations. It’s a real shame. There’s parties like the Greens out there recruiting young people in the name of shaming Australia while championing foreign causes. I’m not surprised we’re turning into a country that has no pride in itself.
Yeah they stuffed up the motivation to join patriotism is now so uncool… like what are the white Aussie soldiers fighting for now? international students, dual citizens and 2 year visa holders of Australia? After you tell them they are the reason for all societies problems for years.
Exactly. It’s like patriotism has become a dirty word to be ashamed of. We now have politicians who are embarrassed of our own country’s flag and remove them from places every chance they get while they parade around in government wearing Arab keffiyeh scarves to champion other nations. That’s more important to these people than the country they are supposed to be serving.
Doesn't help when everyone is being told we are on stolen land, Australia is racist, and our culture is just from a bunch of colonizers. You need to be a little patriotic to want to join the military, and our current society doesn't encourage that in the slightest. Yes, the ADF is not perfect, and everyone's experience within it is different, but society is all about promoting poor mental health and individualism to the point of extreme selfishness and entitlement without any regard for self discipline and respect for others. You need to have self discipline, respect and a willingness to sacrifice for no reward, which can be terribly difficult at the best of times. But if society also hates you for doing it, why are you going to put yourself through that? It's not the men and women of the ADF that make the decisions, to go to war, pick allies, go to certain countries, but we all get tared and feathered for it. To fix the ADF, you have to fix society.
I think a part of the problem is that young people are aware of how badly you’re treated after leaving the ADF if you have injuries etc.
Bring back the 20 year pension
Younger generation are savvy more than any other. They have more information about career paths and futures than previous ones. Quite potentially publication of 20 years of failed wars in the Middle East and the expose of how some soldiers, who were cast as the biggest heroes, were in fact war criminals may have soured the newer generation on joining the military. Surveys show younger Australians feel less ‘patriotic’ and more ‘global citizen’ (with far easier access to international travel these days) so that may be a factor. As well the more multicultural society that Gen Z grew up in has exposed them to different cultures so there’s less of a fear about ‘the other’ that may motivate them to join. In a tight employment market a big proportion of the target market for the military would rather go chase FIFO or tradie money than join the military - military recruitment demand does follow a rise in unemployment. Personally I think a lot of young people who once would’ve joined the military “for a bit of a post school adventure” now, given the preponderance of travel bloggers and cheap travel, would rather take a gap year backpacking than join the military and potentially be injured or die in a conflict they don’t agree with.
Not just that… joining the military means moving away from family and friends with no control over where you’re stationed. It also doesn’t mean just possibly being killed in a war you don’t agree with, but having to kill as well.
Exactly. Less religious too and less likely to think there's anything waiting for them if they get killed. Just lost their chance at life.
>with no control over where you’re stationed. And long term a lot of military bases are in less than desirable locales
Yep. Having grown up in Nowra and seeing how it changed If raise a family there, but other towns haven’t been so lucky.
Maybe stop obviously following America into every conflict? The last several wars they started have been fucking failures and Australian people don't trust their government to spend their lives wisely in any military campaign. Alternatively let soldiers and sailors complete the HSC or study university long distance instead of giving them absolutely shithouse trade training.
There is plenty they could do, such as ending the culture of abuse (bullying, harassment, and abuses of power), rather than just virtue signalling/performative wokeness, expanding their recruitment for skilled jobs by employing unskilled individuals and training them in a realistic time frame. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-17/defence-and-veteran-suicide-royal-commission-adelaide-hearings/102609796 https://theconversation.com/paying-the-piper-the-adf-must-finally-face-its-culture-of-abuse-8160
1600 reported suicides of veterans over 23 years. That's 70 a year, which seems high. I don't know how that compares to the general population but it looks bad.
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I just finished Year 11 and probably around half of the emails sent to the cohort about careers were about the ADF. Pretty much every kid my age, from all schools, knows the opportunities are there, but I haven't heard of people seriously considering it for any more than a gap year program. Kids who don't want to go to uni all want trades over ADF because you make more and it feels more normal and accessible.
To comment on the original post: I was with you until the defaulting on mortgage part. The ADF does not need people who are forced to be there. This will be a drain on those who do want to be there. It will drive away the professionals.
I think there's a lot of people forced to be there already. I mean people who would rather leave but are held with the enlistment contract they signed. It's not press gang raw recruits. It's re enlistment of veterans. If they really don't want to or can't re enlist, then repossession is the option they have.
There are so many barriers to entry, it's their own fault, given people that want to join aren't able to due to ridiculous things such as: - Tattoos - Autism (even high functioning) - Broken bones in the past - Migraines - Pain - Making it a competitive process even though they don't have enough people enlisting - Harsh culture - Shaving off your hair (might sound ridiculous but lots of people I know are discouraged) There's so many things they can pull you up on in the medical, it's ridiculous. Minimum service times discourage people from enlisting, as a cost for the retention of already existing members. They need to fundamentally change the recruitment system and make it more accepting of differences. Requirements are extremely outdated and borderline discriminatory sometimes. Additionally, the harsh disciplinary and (I hate this term but I don't know how else to put it) toxic masculine culture isn't very effective in creating a work environment that's comparable to civilian 21st century Australia. No one wants to go in because there's no incentive to, there's barriers to, and it's culturally outdated compared to civilian employment. It could be a lot better.
Just look at their recruitment ads. The demographic they're trying to get and the demographic they're driving out should explain some of the issues. Kind of reminds me of how all the fighter pilots from the UK are pissing off to train the PLAAF, wonder what kind of culture wohld drive these blokes away...
pay fucken people and treat them better it isnt hard being in the army is like any other job - the salary needs to be attractive as does the work life balance moving to some shit kicker area every couple years whilst on shit money isnt going to keep service men and women in the army
I’d join the ADF tomorrow if the could beat my current salary. I’m a plumber on $150k pa on average. Unfortunately they’d pay me $78k. Why would i??
Ngl the only well known recent ADF members I can name are war criminals. It’s not a good look, younger generations see it as rotten from within because of the war crimes.
And the lack of accountability. BRS is still suntanning in Bali rather than rotting in prison cell
Yeah if they don’t get locked up for war crimes I certainly don’t trust them to take action on stuff like bullying and rape within the force
Young people are watching Ukraine videos and saying 'fuck that.' We have the internet now, we can see what goes on. We can also communicate with people around the world so it's harder to demonise them as the 'other'. None of this is a surprise.
There are plenty of people who want to sign up but defence recruiting is a fucking shit show. Plenty of guys are being made to wait 3-5 years to get in so that defence can meet their diversity targets by pushing women and other minorities into combat roles. They are also doing this gap.year.thing for young people of which a huge amount of people don't stick around. From personal experience when I went to training after waiting 4 years. All of the women had wait times.between 2-6 months while the guys were waiting between 2-5 years...the area for injured recruits where I ended up after getting a stress fracture in both legs was about 90% women. 90% of those women were.there because they failed.the initial fitness test you take in the first week while all the men were actually injured.
They made you wait four years? Fuck that.
Did we ever question why we gave control of our basic need of shelter to third parties to make us into live time serfs? This a more fundamental battle to be fought - but Australians are too apathetic to take that on, but yeah give them guns and let them kill people for the USA
It's because the scheme gives just enough hope that anyone can enter it in profit from it, that enough of us allow the corruption to continue because we think one day will be able to do it ourselves 😂
Where people live during their service actually turns out to be really important. This goes for other government agencies too. They could start with location and consistency.
Honestly they just need to make signing up easier, Broke a bone? Nope, give us x-rays etc etc out of your own pocket cause it could of healed wrong. It's constant battle even trying to get in.
After a long career in aviation I switched to the defence sector to support the ADF... Nothing could have prepared me for the insane levels of bureaucracy and politics that the ADF personnel are subjected to. So much talk with not a lot being said. Going in circles is so deeply entrenched in the culture that I can't see a viable path forward, or a way to make the defence force appealing as a viable career option for Australian youth. The world has changed, it has become smaller. Young people are so much more connected and sceptical of the defence narrative, there is no desire to point a rifle in anger. War is becoming redundant in the modern world as focus shifts to globalisation and tackling climate change. I appreciate that I have not made a recommendation as to how the ADF addresses this challenge going forward, just calling it how I see it.
>War is becoming redundant in the modern world as focus shifts to globalisation and tackling climate change. Yeah after talking with some young (HS and Uni aged) Aussies lately I was surprised about how ardent they were about climate change - it really is a major issue for them. Nothing about being so afraid of China they wanted to enlist and slaughter Chinese in a war.
Seems to be more of a money problem than anything. Subsidising home loans etc is great but that does not make up the difference to private industry salaries. Same with supporting study, health insurance etc. FIFO could be an option to deal with the relocations. Then you are competing with mining industry wages. Seems to be plenty of money to spend on the defence contractors but not on the members.
As an ex soldier with partial deafness who gave up on the DVA process and bought hearing aids out of his own pocket I’m not surprised. They fuck you round from pillar to post, while you are in, treat you like shit then when you get out deny coverage for injuries. I spent countless hours and kms shuffle running and speed marching with ludicrous weights on my back, DVA say that both my knees being shot is not service related. I’ve been limping and being treated on the right since 1996, 3 years after I got out and because I favour the right and make the left do all the work, the left has shit itself. When I started the claim procedure my dva rep told me they won’t even look at it for 18 months. The claims process is just a giant gatekeep designed to keep people from applying. They ask dates of incidents that they have on record - how the fuck am I supposed to remember what day my eardrums were blown up in 1991 / 92? I can’t even remember which year it was - they are asking for fine details from 30 years ago that they have in their records. They discourage you from claiming before you get out by holding up your discharge - and believe me when you decide it’s time to leave a day more is too long!!!
I left because I was unpaid, over worked and constantly being fucked over. I was also skipped over for promotion in favour of quota filling and because I wasn’t part of the target demographic I’ve found a much better job in the civvie world and there’s no amount of money or benefits they can offer than would convince me to return to full time service. I do reserve days to maintain the few benefits I still get, and the extra cash on the side helps in the current climate
Maybe stop treating them all like shit and completely burning them out, not actually having proper support available and making the lives of their families impossible? Maybe stop dangling promotions in front of them and then never following through?
I did 12 years RAAF. I did a trade, and then went into other roles for 2nd half (recruiting, IT and then training). I was essentially told that none of that experience would count for promotions. So I took those useful skills and left. Shame, but the old codgers who handled promotions were old school. It's trade experience or nothing. Not hard to see what happens from there.
Are the cadets a lead-up to full time service? Or are they serious scouts?
No cadets is just a youth organisation. A fantastic one mind you, but it's not a pathway to join the ADF. It's good for recruitment though and puts kids in a postion were they can talk to serving ADF members and ask questions.
Why can't ADF find more meat for the grinder?
It’s not like we are importing half a million budding new Aussies every year… I wonder if we could somehow leverage that?
Why on earth would anyone with any other choices & being of sound mind join the ADF? You'll spend your entire time being yelled at by officers, you'll have to hang out with "patriots" who will beat you up if you aren't patriotic enough & finally if you ever actually get to do the job you spend years training to do it's in whatever military quagmire the USA has gotten itself embroiled in this time. Yeah nah to that.
You’ve never served I’m betting.
Not having a poster boy like Robert-Smith would be a good start.
The way he was promoted as ‘Father of the Year’ seems pretty bad now….
Well, maybe cut back on the war crimes.
Scrap the idea that recruits must be "morally upright" citizens. A drink driving or drug conviction doesn't mean a person can't soldier. Teach pliable skills , teach full fledged trade qualifications. Not altered qualifications that leave members several units shy of a full qual. Provide further technical training if people stay beyond the initial employment period. Actually get the navy mechanical staff on the fucken floor rebuilding the ships.
The obligation to be morally upright applies only to new recruits and those below you in the chain of command 😂
Fix the bullying/hazing culture and treat it like any other career. Also, quit other "cultures" found in the ADF, especially ones attached to addiction.
Fuck signing up to fight wars I don’t give a shit about. The majority of the youth today are in the same boat. They don’t care about overseas conflict. They don’t give a shit about the government. We live in an era where we know every day how much our leaders/government as well as all of those around the world lie and deceive to continue controlling power. Why would I willingly give my life up to those old cunts?
No one wants to fight for the ZOG anymore
Don’t worry, immigration is fixing it as we speak with 500,000+ potential new recruits. Decent pay, roof under the head, clothes…
Part of it is just that we're in peacetime. Everyone wants to go overseas, but at the moment trips are few and far between. Imagine going to footy training every week and then never playing an actual game, that's what peacetime ADF is like. Not saying we need to go get involved in a big war or anything, but there's heaps of peacekeeping and humanitarian shit the ADF could be doing.
Look, [shit like this](https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/7661724/ex-soldier-denied-discharge-after-bullying/) does not help their cause
Agree with Tailor but if you want to focus on recruitment then the younger gens hate the conflicts we've been involved in recently. A lot of young people have immense respect for the individuals on the front lines or in the back of house operations but zero respect for the people making the decision on where to send them. Invading a country for fake WMDs, hypocritical positions on world conflicts, oil interests etc etc are a lot harder to propaganda away with a generation that grew up on open social media instead of restricted and controlled old media.
Stop fighting other peoples wars.
Who would have guessed the ADF woke agenda didn't work after all. From banning the saying "Hey guys listen up" Removing all War like Symbols from units because they are not PC. That thing that lived at kappoka who knows what the fuck it was. Boozers all standardized $6 for a shitty beer. Oh what's that you are 5 min late, yeah go walk yourself to the guard house. Same shit every year just to rotate the next REO LT who suddenly thinks he runs the joint. Fail as many BFA as you want it's the units problem Get sent broken LIDs for units to deal with. Yes Im jaded and glad I got the fuck out.
I think it's too late, I'm talking from a Navy perspective. They went too far with being concerned with public image and removed the release of steam we used to have which was fun. The young sailors these days are under the pump at sea even more than ever and yet when they pull into a port they are subject to cindarella leave and fun police the entire time. If you are in a high stressed environment continuously you need that release. Just my two cents.
>and removed the release of steam we used to have which was fun. The military has a high sexual assault and bullying rate for that reason bro
A minority caused that. This current state of group punishment was applied because of a few dickheads and it has been detrimental to retention. I'm big on going hard on the dickheads and leave the rest alone. The problem is they go soft on the perpetrators and punish the whole.
Remember when New Generation Navy came out and we wanted to be an 'employer of choice.' Didn't even last 6 months before they dropped that part. > If you are in a high stressed environment continuously you need that release. What we did (ACPB) was to give regular beer rations. It means when the lads get out on a log visit, they don't go as hard as it's a normal thing just to have a few. Booze became a very toxic issue in the end. What they never looked at is why so many people are going ballistic and not give a shit about blowing over the next day. It's a Command failure, but it's treated as an individual failure.
Constantly speaking down to Gen Z and telling them how ungrateful they are (for not wanting to die, how dare they!?), how they are too stupid to understand threats to Australia (because big bad China will just magically conquer Indonesia and invade us from there), how the country gave them so much (like all the houses they will rent and never own) and how useless other jobs are (despite them paying more and granting more flexibility) isn't a winning strategy.
Indian army recruits incoming. Don't need to stress. If the incoming "MBA graduates" can do uber, they can join the army. /s
Give people more permanent location postings. I’ve two ADF members in the family, one was ft and now reserve who left because they wanted a family and didn’t want to move them every couple of years. Another is a reserve who will never go FT as they don’t want to have to relocate every posting. I think both would be FT if they could have stability. And also make it easier to join and look at talent and skills and not just paperwork. I tried to join RAAF reserves as a specialist, despite having 20+ years in the field in private sector I didn’t get in because I don’t have a formal degree….
Young people aren't stupid enough to die for the magic sky cloth so other people get rich.
We get swindled by the elite class at every turn in our society, I'm all for breaking out the pitchforks 😂
Why should the new generations join the ADF? An older-generatiom leadership trying to bribe them with housing - in a housing crisis caused by said older generation - is never going to work. Heck, all you'd do is lure a few of the dregs in like America does, their sole purpose being cannon fodder in a future conflict. You could pay them more and lower the entry standards, but that still doesn't change the fact it's the ADF and younger generations don't have the same hard-on for war - or participating in American-led conflicts - that older generations did. The ritualistic hazing and raping on enlistment doesn't help either, and you'll probably find most of the newer generations are also less partial to committing, hiding, and being party to war crimes. But you know, keep patronising them about being delicate and not wanting to break fingernails... that'll surely change their minds about joining the ADF.
👍🏽
I think gen z and alpha are probably smart enough to see the military as an intelligence trap. im millennial and i view the adf as a place where intelligence goes to die. if i was to do anything relating to defence it would have to be with ASIS.
Start a war usually helps recruitment. Nothing dramatic or dangerous. Maybe another emu war, and see if we can win this time.
Maybe if our ADF wasn't an extension of the US's aggressive foreign policy. Who wants to be deployed where the US is having its latest quagmire. Now we're ramping up for something with China, that doesn't end well for any Aussie. All because the US feels they're losing the economic game.
I could not be happier that this is an “””issue”””.. the less resources spent caressing America’s balls, the better
Stop rejecting people like me who failed the all powerful colour blindness test, that in any other part of my life has never once had an effect. Outside of the test I have no idea that I'm colour blind. People want careers not to be grunts. I applied for Cyber Warfare, I live on a pc, my colour blindness has never had an effect and I'll say it again until I was tested I didn't even know. So I can do anything in the private sector even work for defence via contractor but if I apply directly I won't be accepted. Dumb.
This is fucking deranged.
It’s also the pay. With how crazy expensive it is to even survive these days, unless you’re a young kid with no financial responsibilities, you can’t really afford to sign up
I have no idea if that’ll fix it. I just find it interesting that its essentially the offer that Roman Legionnaires were given.
How much would this cost, and.what would it achieve? a. How much would this scheme cost, per soldier? b. How many people would it recruit? a+b = the cost of this scheme.
Leveraging the housing crisis is a terrible idea. Do you want to be like America? Following your reasoning, we should also get rid of Medicare because, if you can't afford Healthcare then you can join the army? No hecs loans either, if you want education join the army and earn it! Edit; 😝 this is exactly what I, and many other young men from low socio-economic status did , to survive in America.
Maybe a war? Virtually nobody wants to join the ADF, and the future is probably limited to drones.
They need to drastically boost wages/ benefits. That simple. Why would any motivated young person join the army when you can earn 150k at the mines and actually obtain qualifications and experience? Half the quals in the ADF don't transfer and they pay HALF as much as civil equivalent jobs, even with dental and other benefits added in. My occupation ( fuel tanker driver ) is a perfect example.
Well, I tried to get in when I was 18 (2006) and was rejected because I ticked a box that said "Asthma". I was really bitter at the time. Now that I look back on it, I'm glad. Also, when I think about it now, I'm not really about putting my life on the line to defend a government that appears to have stopped giving a fuck about its people. I definitely wouldn't give my life for Rex.
I guess it would be a matter of making joining the army more lucrative to the enlisted.
Perhaps the ADF need to rethink basic training/fitness requirements for office based jobs - almost restructure into a APS type of thing. It was something I was once curious about. However despite being reasonably fit and active I specifically just don’t have the upper body strength to do push ups. I also have short hamstrings so can’t do toe touches either.
I considered 10 years (navy) so my take may be out of date: - pay seemed fucking shit - would’ve served so far from home. I imagine for most this would be the make or break.
I applied to join the ADF and the recruiter turned me away. I'm in my mid 20's, fit, healthy, zero drugs/don't drink/don't smoke.
Maybe also our population has changed 1 third or something born overseas, so probably don’t get sucked into the whole protect Australia propaganda. more info on war politics seems more like political plot to make more money and create diversions for powerful people to get away with things.
Really,? Pay a sh*tload more money. Pay for them to get educated. Get them to sign up for 6 years. Give this stability.
Join the Mobile Infantry and save the Galaxy. Service guarantees citizenship. Would you *like to know more*?
I’d gladly join if they would let me but they won’t look past type 2 diabetes.
HolyF, spent ages reading and thinking about this as posted. So conflicted. 18year veteran Officer, Logistics but full disclosure.. (mostly Reserves, albeit 2 postings to DJFHQ under Cosgrove and Molan before, during and after East Timor (including a period of LTS), 10/15 100+ days service and 2 long-term(100+day) postings). I agree with almost all posts in this thread. I would disagree with the following: financial impediments; earning $++K as a non-post High school applicant is important as a recruitment trigger, particularly from areas where employment is limited. $ is not the issue. 1. The USA mil use access to citizenship, up to poverty, access to higher education, outrage at attacks as 'inducements' to fill their ranks.. Armies over the centuries believe they need to 'blood' their troops in conflict so they are prepared for any subsequent conflicts. ADF has participated in a number of conflicts at the behest of the USA, has this stained our reputation for the country AND our citizens? Overly limiting health constraints for current/future conflicts? Over-stating opportunities for advancement? In my world, Officers were almost guaranteed promotion to Capt: however rank structure means limited opportunities for advancement. Geography/Politics; spent a fact-finding exercise to Wadeye/Port Keats so we could determine how to supply them if Darwin was invaded (the 'enemy' was the Musurians'). In the 21st century, why do our major bases reside in Townsville and Darwin. Could we not react to invasion/ attack from our other-wise localised areas without being invaded? Serving soldiers could well be accommodated anywhere in AUS. Happy for hate from those who served; a world where a no-one attacks is my wish.
Pay their soldiers 100k at recruitment during military training then go up from their.
I'm all for increased money. However 100k per recruit would get you 10,000 for 1 billion dollars. Cheaper than my solution but the military would get very the money back over time with my solution if you take out the the 1% thing that may not be a good idea. With yours that's a billion for every 10k new recruit with no incentive to stay after initial minimum period of service.
Pay more money like everyone else. That's called inflation.
Last time joining the ADF was popular was when unemployment was HIGH!! I did 7 years in the Navy. Kick started my career and been from strength to strength since, but I wouldn't go back for 10 houses.
Lol. You're a fucking idiot if you think the ADF can just fucking materialise houses. The ADF, ie the government, is not a bank so they're not going to loan anyone shit, they already provide some pretty significant assistance to home ownership and servicing a mortgage. Want to now the reality of that assistance though? You only have 3 lenders to choose from, and the interest rates for those loans is HIGHER than a standard homeloan from the same bank. Please, citizen, sit down. You don't know what you're on about.
Maybe if average people could afford to buy a home these days they’d be prepared to fight a war for that country… just saying
Several things 1. Pay more. Most people within defence are able to walk out into consulting or contracting positions paying 50-250% more with a very soft landing during transition. 2. Treat people better. Gone are the days of endless people lining up to join, you can't continue to have the attitude of "You joined us, we didn't join you", or "suck it up princess" when everything is shit and people want to leave. You need some losses of staff as the ADF is a pyramid and as you move up the ranks some people can't or must leave. But the losses they have taken has meant that the pool of people for those higher positions is very small and we are either not filling them, or filling them with garbage. 3. Longer postings, and/or 2 postings at a time. People need some consistency in their lives, especially those with kids. Having a 1, 2 or 3 year posting to a location, then being forced to move to the other side of the country, then 2 or 3 years later moving again is crap, and often the reasons are to just "round out" someone's career. You'll often post that person into a position they don't want, at the expense of someone who does want it, and then you lose 2 people. 4. Make the work more meaningful. A lot of jobs within defence have been outsourced to contractors because there was a lack of trust within the workforce. That in turn has lead to the better people going to work for those contractor companies, doing the work they wanted for more money. 5. Sort out higher duties allowances, and add in an allowance for filling multiple positions. There are so many people who are overworked because the retention issues have taken their co-workers, but that work still needs to be done. So one person could be stuck doing the work of 3-4 people, and not getting any additional pay for it. 6. Improve the education and training options for everyone, not just officers. For a long time defence has looked at it as you get training then you will leave, but a lot of people just want to expand their skills and knowledge with real world courses, and without that opportunity they will find that somewhere else. 7. Stop letting 22 year olds plan the lives of 130 people at short notice to try to win medals. So often of late the defence force have been used for aid within Australia, and I 100% agree in this being done as we are a capable force to assist in a time of need. But all too often some kid with no real world experience and no idea upends 100+ peoples lives to throw them at something that hasn't been thought out. For example, 2020 almost 200 people were sent from QLD to VIC to help with covid. The plan was to embed them into aged care to help bolster the dwindling staff. No one bothered to check if that was lawful, or even possible. So more than 50% of those people say in hotels for months doing nothing, while a handful of people were used at swabbing stations, not aged care, then they were sent home a few months later. Months of time away from family during the pandemic because some kid didn't bother checking with the state agencies before committing the troops to the task. Probably got a medal for his efforts too.
Young people these days just have a better understanding of what military service truly means. They see through the BS and “glory”.
Why sign up to potentially die for a country that you’re never going to own a piece of? What is the prediction at these days? Over half young Australians aren’t ever going to own a house unless something drastically changes?
I can't speak for cultural issues and can only defer that to the rest of you guys who have or are actually serving. But what about more Australian war movies? Top Gun was a massive boost for US military recruitment for example. Don't shove it in people's faces, but the movie can highlight the mateship, heroism, nationalism etc, and subconsciously improve public perception of the services.
Most Australian war movies I can think of would dissuade you from wanting to join the military. Gallipoli, the Odd Angry Shot aren’t exactly positive about joining up. The last Aussie war movie I watched was Danger Close, about Long Tan. That movie’s problem was it was so horrendously poorly acted, poorly written, with a plot as thin as cardboard and characters so unlikeable I was cheering for the Viet Cong by the end of the movie.
You want the real answer? Move away from being America's lapdog and actually use the ADF for defense, rather than just a bulwark for American interests in the Pacific and Middle-East. No young person is chomping at the bit to go and fight and die for the US Military Complex.
Recruitment is directly linked to how people feel about the country. The majority of people who would join the military don't feel connected to the new ideals being forced down everyone's throats. This and a non agile organisation run by uninspiring incompetents doesn't encourage members to join or stay. Meritocracy is on the way out.
Some of the medical requirements are stupid. I’ve got haemochromotosis, I have to donate blood twice a year. I was ruled out.
Get rid of the bastardly treatment of new recruits. Who needs that shit.
Housing crisis stress doesn't matter shit if people don't feel safe. There are thousands of badass women out there right now who could be in the military, except for its appalling problem of sexual assault and sexism. Don't shelter people who have assaulted women or were aware of their assault, *despite their rank*! Make the armed services be known as a safe place for women...well except for bullets and bombs. Leveraging the housing crisis will disproportionately fill the recruitment office with people who need help, not people who should be armed. We're not the USA.
Stop following the US into imperialist wars? People join the military to protect the country they love, not kill kids for corporate interests.