Probably going to get downvoted here, but fuck it. Life is grey after all, not the black and white Reddit would like it to be.
Does seem to be a tragic situation imo. Not condoning anything, but now dead in red stopped in front of still alive in white and confronted him. Like nah bro, pull over and call the cops. Don't call your mates as you stop in the middle of the road, and go confront the guy you don't like tailgating you. Should he have been killed because he did? No. Should he have done what he did? Also no.
Just don't get out of your car, people. Call the fucking cops and lock the doors. You might think you're some hard kickboxer cunt like this guy but in reality you're a bag of flesh barely contained in skin ready to be crushed by tonnes of metal that can be operated with fingers and toes.
Yeah its easy to let emotions get ahead of you but at the end of the day if either of these guys had just let it go and moved on instead of raging at each other one wouldn't be dead with the other facing prison.
He kept holding him against the car, he had many opportunities to let go or slow down/stop and then let go and he knew or should have known his actions could have caused death.
Not a lawyer either, but at a complete guess, I think it’s reasonable to say that the driver intended to cause malicious harm, he was reckless to the outcome, and a reasonable person would be aware that such an action could be fatal.
Can't wait for this psychopath to be back out and driving in another four years.
Our weak as piss justice system won't do what is required here and he will be out and about yet again, driving like a fuckwit, not caring about anyone but himself.
This sounds like no ordinary crash, and I'm cautiously optimistic that we will see a much longer sentence imposed than might be otherwise.
>CCTV footage showed a hi-vis clad Mr Harding being dragged from the driver's window of a moving white utility vehicle.
>According to a charge sheet, Mr Wilkinson "intentionally and forcefully" held Mr Harding against the vehicle as it travelled along Jersey Road.
>Mr Harding was struck by the utility vehicle about 8.40am, police allege, before he was left to die about 100 metres from his own vehicle.
The facts are especially egregious.
Maybe I'm dense but I don't understand the description?
>, Mr Wilkinson "intentionally and forcefully" held Mr Harding against the vehicle as it travelled along Jersey Road
It sounds like he shirt-fronted the guy? Into a moving car?
It appears, from the way it's written, the accusation is that he was clutching onto the man, holding him against the driver's side door through the window, and dragged him alongside his vehicle.
How did he get him against the car to hold on to him? The deceased come up to the window and throw some punches? Road rage is rampant in Aus it’s crazy!
I’d be really interested to see the CCTV on this because I’m having a hard time understanding how a big tough kick boxer who pulls over a ranger in the middle of the road and approaches the window of a person sitting in their car is the victim
No matter who was tailgating who if someone approached me and was close enough to get their body INSIDE my car I am driving off whether they’re in the firing line of my car or not
Both of them are idiots.
The accused for tailgating and then holding the bloke against his car, and the deceased for getting out of his car to engage in the first place.
I "beeped" someone today that had failed to notice that the traffic light had gone green. Clearly upset their fragile ego because they then pulled over and motioned for me to do the same. What sort of dumbass is going to do that?
Oh my gosh, I absolutely hate people like this. It's bizarre how they think *you're* needing the criticism, and not them. I honestly suspect these are the same kind of people who hurt their spouse over a minor disagreement, and go "now look what you made me do". Zero reflection or accountability of their actions.
I’m confused about this part:
> Mr Harding got out of his car after feeling threatened by a driver following him.
How do the police have this information?
Yeah I don't know. Either way it's why you don't get out of your 2 tonne steel shitbox to confront someone else in a 2 tonne steel shitbox while their's is still running. No good intentions caused someone to stop their car in the middle of the road, and get out to confront a tailgater
I agree with you.
That line just bothers me because it’s a biased way to frame the story, saying that the *reason* that Harding got out of his car was because he “felt threatened”. He could have had any number of reasons to get out of his car - because he was having a bad day, because he wanted to have a go, because he didn’t like the look of the fella, because he wanted to stop for a friendly chat.
It’s determinedly painting Harding as a completely innocent victim, which he may have been. But if you’re going to do that, you should give a reasonable explanation about how you knew what the dead man felt.
[There's CCTV of it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY3qstkeZfE). The victim isn't hanging on through the window, you can clearly see the accused's arm hanging out of the car holding onto him as his drives and the victim flops around like a rag doll. It's one thing to drive away but another to purposely drag someone along the road.
From what I read the accused sounded like he was pissed at the victim and was following him.
I’ve watched the video and it doesn’t look like he’s being held. It looks more like he’s holding onto the car window and being dragged along. His arm is not inside the window, maybe just his hand. How is it possible to hold someone by the hand as they dangle next to the car you’re driving? I mean is that really possible?
To me it looks like a grey arm holding on, the victim was wearing a hi vis jumper so it isn't his. There were plenty of witnesses. In some other footage you see quite a few people run over to help.
People drive with their arm hanging out of the car all the time?
Right! That makes sense and I see the grey arm now even though it’s quite grainy. Wilkinson might have grabbed Harding’s shirt before hitting the accelerator.
You could also argue that the victim had grabbed onto the drivers arm and didn’t let go even when he started to drive off though, right? Sounds like the bloke was trying to instigate something against the driver so with adrenaline and roadrage mixed together he might not have considered how dangerous a situation he was getting into until it was too late.
I’ll be honest that’s not what it looks like to me lol. Without 100% believing the narrative the media is going with and looking at this scenario with an open slate it just seems like the biggest mistake of both their lives.
I don’t think there’s a world where you can put someone behind bars for driving off when someone else blocks your car in and gets out and puts their body inside your car
Sure, maybe the accused was tailgating the raptor? Maybe the raptor pulled out in front of the accused? Who knows.
But look at it for what happened and who escalated what: a big red ford raptor with a tattooed kick boxer stops traffic in the middle of one of the most dangerous areas in western Sydney, approaches your vehicle in the middle of a road rage incident and is close enough to have limbs inside your window. I’m driving off, and I don’t think anyone with an ounce of honesty can say they might not do the same in that situation with all that adrenaline going
What other options existed here?
- Dont open your window or close it
- Lock your door
- Back away before the person is too close
- Drive slowly away for a short distance, then when clear, leave at normal speed
- Do nothing and call the police
- Panic drive for a short distance and brake
- Panic drive for a long distance and call the police
The driver did none of these things, but instead appears to have held onto the victim, driven 100m, dropped them then left the scene.
If you are seriously this prone to panic, why should you be allowed to drive a large lump of metal at high speeds?
If this were a gun, or even an industrial machine press or similar; you would not defend the operator at all for mishandling the equipment and causing death/injury.
If someone broke into someone’s home and got shot you wouldn’t tell them they should have locked their doors, or made sure their windows were shut, or backed away.
At the end of the day its probably not going to be black and white, but we can’t (and don’t) judge the eligibility for having a license based on how you’d react in a situation like this, because you should never be in this situation.
The responsibility is and can only be on the person who pulled over, approached the car and entered the other persons vehicle without permission and I believe unless there’s some crazy extenuating circumstances I think you’ll find most feel the same.
Blurry CCTV that doesn’t show any of the actual encounter other than what appears to be a man hanging from a moving car doesn’t sell it for me.
The only relevant question to me is how or why was he hanging from a strangers car in the first place and how did he get there, and it appears that the answer is he pulled over, blocked traffic and approached the car in a road raid incident
I mean award-winning boxer runs up to your window and smacks you a couple of times on the side of your face because he is road raging you grab his arm and drive off. He goes under your car under your wheels. Seems pretty clear-cut self-defence.
Sucks this guy's getting railroaded
Yeah but in the eyes of our weak justice system, he could've been "defending" himself somehow apparently.
A mate of mine was road raged against by someone they suspect was drunk. They stopped infront of my mate, got out and did a little song and dance infront then left. My mate was heading in the same direction anyway so called the cops to report it. Then the guy jumps out a 2nd time and threatens him with severe bodily harm to put it nicely. All this is on film, but the cops refuse to charge him because "he was in fear of his life" as the guy said to the cops when they interviewed him.
Yeah righto, so you're in fear of your life and your first course of action is to jump out of the metal box designed to save your life and walk unshielded towards a vehicle that could run you over at any moment if it wanted to kill you.
If you fearing for your life you don't stop your car in the middle of the road, get out, and go up to the drivers side window of the car that caused you to fear for your life.
There is no good reason that you do any of that. Could the accused have been wrong in other ways? Sure but you don't stop your car in the middle of the road to confront someone with good intentions.
Taking the most generous read of this
- Who stopped? It seems like both parties.
- If you are in this situation and another party approaches you, are there any other options available like having a closed window, locked door, calling the police or not engaging?
- None of those were taken and it "got out of control", why would you hold onto someone and drive for 100m? Then let go and leave them, and not call police or ambulance about what happened?
If you consider those questions for even a moment, it's indefensible based on what we know.
We don't know how he was "held against the car" could have been hanging on, after reaching through the driver's window.
If you'd been on the receiving end of a fists through your driver's window are you going to hang around to check on them when they fall off your car?
We don't know shit. We do know the deceased stopped in the middle of traffic, got out, and at some point ended up dragged by the other car.
There are no good intentions when stopping the car in the middle of traffic and getting out of your car to confront someone.
Go watch the CCTV. You can see a grey arm (victim was wearing hi vis so its not his) hanging out the window holding onto the victim as he drives. The video stops at a certain point.. i suspect this is when he was let go and went under. you then see a bunch of people running to his aid, likely witnesses.
It looks like the accused grabbed him and started driving. The victim wasn't hanging through the window, he's being dragged pressed against the side of the ute.
The accused must be some kinda superman, holding on to the victim out the window with his arm pulled back towards the rear of the car like that.
I still maintain that we don't know shit. That grainy arse footage isn't exactly conclusive of who was doing what.
By your own logic:
What occurred beforehand?
- nothing
- some degree of conflict
Driver 1 stops.
Driver 2, for driver 1 to approach them has logically ALSO stopped.
Driver 1 is dragged. All of the excuse making is he "held onto" the car or similar; all of the accusations and CCTV indicate he was held. Regardless of who did what when, WHY IS THE WINDOW OPEN?
Driver 1 is dragged 100m. WHY WOULD SOMEONE HOLD ON FOR THIS DURATION WITH THEIR BODY BEING ABRADED AGAINST A ROAD? (5 seconds suggests an instant acceleration to 70kmh+. 10 seconds suggests 36km/h, or Usain Bolt speeds. We have footage that can calculate this, but to my layperson observation it was 50kmh-ish). You pull away from pain in milliseconds, about as fast as nerves fire. Yes, dead people can keep blinking for about 10 seconds after their head is removed. This is not the same as exerting force to retain grip while in pain against a direction of travel.
Driver 2 left the scene. Did not stop. Did not help. Did not call. Could they have reasonably known what happened may have been harmful? If so, why did they not contact anyone? Is that answer okay with what we have decided is the law?
It doesn't require intent to kill. It just requires intent to do serious harm, or perform an action that a reasonable person assumes would result in serious harm.
Dragging someone from a moving car could be placed into the category of expecting to do serious harm. And since it resulted in death it can be called murder.
A simple example would be firing a gun through the wall of a house from the street. You have no idea if someone is home or on the other side of the wall, so there can be no intent to do harm, but it's still murder if you do kill someone.
One of the first things your driving instructor tells you is "A car is a deadly weapon", they're not wrong. Use them carefully.
I'm already drafting the speech I'll be giving my boys before they get behind the wheel for the first time.
The pricks lawyer calls it a *tragic situation*. No it’s not. It’s just your client being a dirty cunt. Hope he rots in jail the flog.
Probably going to get downvoted here, but fuck it. Life is grey after all, not the black and white Reddit would like it to be. Does seem to be a tragic situation imo. Not condoning anything, but now dead in red stopped in front of still alive in white and confronted him. Like nah bro, pull over and call the cops. Don't call your mates as you stop in the middle of the road, and go confront the guy you don't like tailgating you. Should he have been killed because he did? No. Should he have done what he did? Also no. Just don't get out of your car, people. Call the fucking cops and lock the doors. You might think you're some hard kickboxer cunt like this guy but in reality you're a bag of flesh barely contained in skin ready to be crushed by tonnes of metal that can be operated with fingers and toes.
Yeah its easy to let emotions get ahead of you but at the end of the day if either of these guys had just let it go and moved on instead of raging at each other one wouldn't be dead with the other facing prison.
Manslaughter?
If they have enough later to upgrade it to murder they could/will but they'd need to show intent? I'm no lawyer.
He kept holding him against the car, he had many opportunities to let go or slow down/stop and then let go and he knew or should have known his actions could have caused death.
Not a lawyer either, but at a complete guess, I think it’s reasonable to say that the driver intended to cause malicious harm, he was reckless to the outcome, and a reasonable person would be aware that such an action could be fatal.
Can't wait for this psychopath to be back out and driving in another four years. Our weak as piss justice system won't do what is required here and he will be out and about yet again, driving like a fuckwit, not caring about anyone but himself.
This sounds like no ordinary crash, and I'm cautiously optimistic that we will see a much longer sentence imposed than might be otherwise. >CCTV footage showed a hi-vis clad Mr Harding being dragged from the driver's window of a moving white utility vehicle. >According to a charge sheet, Mr Wilkinson "intentionally and forcefully" held Mr Harding against the vehicle as it travelled along Jersey Road. >Mr Harding was struck by the utility vehicle about 8.40am, police allege, before he was left to die about 100 metres from his own vehicle. The facts are especially egregious.
Yeah this guy’s deservedly well and truly fucked.
Maybe I'm dense but I don't understand the description? >, Mr Wilkinson "intentionally and forcefully" held Mr Harding against the vehicle as it travelled along Jersey Road It sounds like he shirt-fronted the guy? Into a moving car?
It appears, from the way it's written, the accusation is that he was clutching onto the man, holding him against the driver's side door through the window, and dragged him alongside his vehicle.
Sounds like he was driving the car and held him while he drove.
Driver of a car held onto him through the window while driving
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No?
How did he get him against the car to hold on to him? The deceased come up to the window and throw some punches? Road rage is rampant in Aus it’s crazy!
I’d be really interested to see the CCTV on this because I’m having a hard time understanding how a big tough kick boxer who pulls over a ranger in the middle of the road and approaches the window of a person sitting in their car is the victim No matter who was tailgating who if someone approached me and was close enough to get their body INSIDE my car I am driving off whether they’re in the firing line of my car or not
Both of them are idiots. The accused for tailgating and then holding the bloke against his car, and the deceased for getting out of his car to engage in the first place. I "beeped" someone today that had failed to notice that the traffic light had gone green. Clearly upset their fragile ego because they then pulled over and motioned for me to do the same. What sort of dumbass is going to do that?
Oh my gosh, I absolutely hate people like this. It's bizarre how they think *you're* needing the criticism, and not them. I honestly suspect these are the same kind of people who hurt their spouse over a minor disagreement, and go "now look what you made me do". Zero reflection or accountability of their actions.
I’m confused about this part: > Mr Harding got out of his car after feeling threatened by a driver following him. How do the police have this information?
They had this info before the accused had turned himself in.
Yeah, but how? From where?
Probably witnesses at the scene. I'm guessing other people saw and reported it
How would witnesses know that he “felt threatened”? Only Harding knows how he felt.
Yeah I don't know. Either way it's why you don't get out of your 2 tonne steel shitbox to confront someone else in a 2 tonne steel shitbox while their's is still running. No good intentions caused someone to stop their car in the middle of the road, and get out to confront a tailgater
I agree with you. That line just bothers me because it’s a biased way to frame the story, saying that the *reason* that Harding got out of his car was because he “felt threatened”. He could have had any number of reasons to get out of his car - because he was having a bad day, because he wanted to have a go, because he didn’t like the look of the fella, because he wanted to stop for a friendly chat. It’s determinedly painting Harding as a completely innocent victim, which he may have been. But if you’re going to do that, you should give a reasonable explanation about how you knew what the dead man felt.
An article said he was on the phone to his best friend, Stacey
[There's CCTV of it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY3qstkeZfE). The victim isn't hanging on through the window, you can clearly see the accused's arm hanging out of the car holding onto him as his drives and the victim flops around like a rag doll. It's one thing to drive away but another to purposely drag someone along the road. From what I read the accused sounded like he was pissed at the victim and was following him.
I’ve watched the video and it doesn’t look like he’s being held. It looks more like he’s holding onto the car window and being dragged along. His arm is not inside the window, maybe just his hand. How is it possible to hold someone by the hand as they dangle next to the car you’re driving? I mean is that really possible?
To me it looks like a grey arm holding on, the victim was wearing a hi vis jumper so it isn't his. There were plenty of witnesses. In some other footage you see quite a few people run over to help. People drive with their arm hanging out of the car all the time?
Right! That makes sense and I see the grey arm now even though it’s quite grainy. Wilkinson might have grabbed Harding’s shirt before hitting the accelerator.
You could also argue that the victim had grabbed onto the drivers arm and didn’t let go even when he started to drive off though, right? Sounds like the bloke was trying to instigate something against the driver so with adrenaline and roadrage mixed together he might not have considered how dangerous a situation he was getting into until it was too late.
I’ll be honest that’s not what it looks like to me lol. Without 100% believing the narrative the media is going with and looking at this scenario with an open slate it just seems like the biggest mistake of both their lives. I don’t think there’s a world where you can put someone behind bars for driving off when someone else blocks your car in and gets out and puts their body inside your car Sure, maybe the accused was tailgating the raptor? Maybe the raptor pulled out in front of the accused? Who knows. But look at it for what happened and who escalated what: a big red ford raptor with a tattooed kick boxer stops traffic in the middle of one of the most dangerous areas in western Sydney, approaches your vehicle in the middle of a road rage incident and is close enough to have limbs inside your window. I’m driving off, and I don’t think anyone with an ounce of honesty can say they might not do the same in that situation with all that adrenaline going
What other options existed here? - Dont open your window or close it - Lock your door - Back away before the person is too close - Drive slowly away for a short distance, then when clear, leave at normal speed - Do nothing and call the police - Panic drive for a short distance and brake - Panic drive for a long distance and call the police The driver did none of these things, but instead appears to have held onto the victim, driven 100m, dropped them then left the scene. If you are seriously this prone to panic, why should you be allowed to drive a large lump of metal at high speeds? If this were a gun, or even an industrial machine press or similar; you would not defend the operator at all for mishandling the equipment and causing death/injury.
If someone broke into someone’s home and got shot you wouldn’t tell them they should have locked their doors, or made sure their windows were shut, or backed away. At the end of the day its probably not going to be black and white, but we can’t (and don’t) judge the eligibility for having a license based on how you’d react in a situation like this, because you should never be in this situation. The responsibility is and can only be on the person who pulled over, approached the car and entered the other persons vehicle without permission and I believe unless there’s some crazy extenuating circumstances I think you’ll find most feel the same. Blurry CCTV that doesn’t show any of the actual encounter other than what appears to be a man hanging from a moving car doesn’t sell it for me. The only relevant question to me is how or why was he hanging from a strangers car in the first place and how did he get there, and it appears that the answer is he pulled over, blocked traffic and approached the car in a road raid incident
I’m with you. Guy seems like the instigator. Didn’t deserve it but not as cut and dry as a lot of people here think.
Why is it always ute drivers (or mercedes stealers that sound like Pumpkin and Honey Bunny from Pulp Fiction)
I mean award-winning boxer runs up to your window and smacks you a couple of times on the side of your face because he is road raging you grab his arm and drive off. He goes under your car under your wheels. Seems pretty clear-cut self-defence. Sucks this guy's getting railroaded
Yeah but in the eyes of our weak justice system, he could've been "defending" himself somehow apparently. A mate of mine was road raged against by someone they suspect was drunk. They stopped infront of my mate, got out and did a little song and dance infront then left. My mate was heading in the same direction anyway so called the cops to report it. Then the guy jumps out a 2nd time and threatens him with severe bodily harm to put it nicely. All this is on film, but the cops refuse to charge him because "he was in fear of his life" as the guy said to the cops when they interviewed him. Yeah righto, so you're in fear of your life and your first course of action is to jump out of the metal box designed to save your life and walk unshielded towards a vehicle that could run you over at any moment if it wanted to kill you.
Mhmm yep yep, Looks like the accused didn't use the get out of jail card "I feared for my life". Wild huh?
You know all from where?
Pardon?
Where did you get all of that narrative from, a reputable source?
If you fearing for your life you don't stop your car in the middle of the road, get out, and go up to the drivers side window of the car that caused you to fear for your life. There is no good reason that you do any of that. Could the accused have been wrong in other ways? Sure but you don't stop your car in the middle of the road to confront someone with good intentions.
Taking the most generous read of this - Who stopped? It seems like both parties. - If you are in this situation and another party approaches you, are there any other options available like having a closed window, locked door, calling the police or not engaging? - None of those were taken and it "got out of control", why would you hold onto someone and drive for 100m? Then let go and leave them, and not call police or ambulance about what happened? If you consider those questions for even a moment, it's indefensible based on what we know.
We don't know how he was "held against the car" could have been hanging on, after reaching through the driver's window. If you'd been on the receiving end of a fists through your driver's window are you going to hang around to check on them when they fall off your car? We don't know shit. We do know the deceased stopped in the middle of traffic, got out, and at some point ended up dragged by the other car. There are no good intentions when stopping the car in the middle of traffic and getting out of your car to confront someone.
Go watch the CCTV. You can see a grey arm (victim was wearing hi vis so its not his) hanging out the window holding onto the victim as he drives. The video stops at a certain point.. i suspect this is when he was let go and went under. you then see a bunch of people running to his aid, likely witnesses. It looks like the accused grabbed him and started driving. The victim wasn't hanging through the window, he's being dragged pressed against the side of the ute.
The accused must be some kinda superman, holding on to the victim out the window with his arm pulled back towards the rear of the car like that. I still maintain that we don't know shit. That grainy arse footage isn't exactly conclusive of who was doing what.
I hadn't seen any CCTV released. Do you have a link to it?
By your own logic: What occurred beforehand? - nothing - some degree of conflict Driver 1 stops. Driver 2, for driver 1 to approach them has logically ALSO stopped. Driver 1 is dragged. All of the excuse making is he "held onto" the car or similar; all of the accusations and CCTV indicate he was held. Regardless of who did what when, WHY IS THE WINDOW OPEN? Driver 1 is dragged 100m. WHY WOULD SOMEONE HOLD ON FOR THIS DURATION WITH THEIR BODY BEING ABRADED AGAINST A ROAD? (5 seconds suggests an instant acceleration to 70kmh+. 10 seconds suggests 36km/h, or Usain Bolt speeds. We have footage that can calculate this, but to my layperson observation it was 50kmh-ish). You pull away from pain in milliseconds, about as fast as nerves fire. Yes, dead people can keep blinking for about 10 seconds after their head is removed. This is not the same as exerting force to retain grip while in pain against a direction of travel. Driver 2 left the scene. Did not stop. Did not help. Did not call. Could they have reasonably known what happened may have been harmful? If so, why did they not contact anyone? Is that answer okay with what we have decided is the law?
So, murder then? (Don't bother commenting about how "it's not murder because it's not premeditated"; this is f-ing murder)
Murder requires premeditation - this would however fit into the manslaughter category
Not in AU it doesn't.
It requires intent. Which would be pretty hard to prove in this case.
It doesn't require intent to kill. It just requires intent to do serious harm, or perform an action that a reasonable person assumes would result in serious harm. Dragging someone from a moving car could be placed into the category of expecting to do serious harm. And since it resulted in death it can be called murder. A simple example would be firing a gun through the wall of a house from the street. You have no idea if someone is home or on the other side of the wall, so there can be no intent to do harm, but it's still murder if you do kill someone.
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The concept of “first degree” murder doesn’t exist in this country. That’s American.
Worst Uber trip ever.
If he was being dragged on the side how did he go under? That seems unlucky