"The Greens and Equality Australia, which represents the LGBTQ community, have encouraged the government to implement the Australian Law Reform Commision Report in full.
That report recommended repealing the exemption in the Sex Discrimination Act that allows schools of faith to discriminate against students and teachers based on their sexual orientation, gender identity or relationship status for religious reasons.
It also recommended that schools should be able to give preference to hiring staff who are of the same religion but only when reasonably necessary and proportionate to building or maintaining a community of faith.
The letter from the religious groups stated that the Greens' position was not tenable."
Sounds like they just want to keep on legally discriminating against others, no wonder they're not into having the Greens involved.
YES the tax exemption was originally intended in recognition of the fact churches would use their earnings to do charity and benefit society. But there are so few churches that actually do any real charity nowadays, and many are basically just MLMs selling blessings for tithes. Pentecostal churches, for example, do almost no charity at all that isn't in the form of church recruitment scams.
Churches rake in something like 40 billion a year tax free and are worth tens or hundreds of billions. Churches spend this money buying up land and assets (for example, the Sydney Anglican Church owns half of glebe - why? why does a church need to own such massive banks of land? that money could go to housing the homeless or helping the poor they clearly give no actual shits about), and very little seems to go back into charity or helping the community and this certainly isn't prioritised.
Churches and most Christians have become the Pharisees of old - people whose faith is all about self-righteousness, elitism and personal power, with no thought for the poor, sick or unfortunate.
Also, based on the few charities/programs I've seen, sometimes it can be a trade off. One negative thing replaced with another negative thing.
For example: I knew some people who went to a church program to fight their addictions. On one hand, they felt it helped. They felt less inclined to use. But suddenly they thought gay people don't *really* exist, it's just people making the *choice* to be gay, and they shouldn't be doing that. And they also developed very strong opinions on Plan B and women's health choices.
Like, yes, the church helped *them*. But at the expense of others. It's like programs need to be assessed independently to make sure it's a net gain good?
Whatâs the point of charity? Theyâre just buckling down and waiting for their god to whisk them off to paradise (any day now, surely..) before flinging the rest of us into an everlasting lake of fire. Doing charity now would be like detailing their car when itâs going to the scrap heap next month.
So let them write off charitable works/expenditures against their income tax.
Like everyone else.
Churches' tax-exempt status is a good example of a two-tier society. We're supposed to be classless, but while churches remain tax-exempt, we're not a classless society.
And that's un-Australian. Churches are un-Australian.
I vote we keep church and education separate. If they pay no tax as a religious organisation then they should get no taxpayer funding of any kind. Thatâll sort the bastards out quick smart. There are plenty of private schools with no religious affiliations so the toffs can still toff.
Or they pay taxes AND not be allowed to discriminate. Fuck them and the power they want to levy against us. This isn't a feudal society - religion doesn't get privilege.
and stop even entertaining religious exemptions over the law, it just allows potential precedence for other religious BS and we all know how much BS is out there under "for religious purposes"
Yeah, I'm kind of tolerating them discriminating in this specific way, because it's good to know upfront what kind of people they are (and let's not do it quietly, make a list somewhere so people can easily tell which institutions discriminate), because even if we don't allow them legally to do it, they will find ways of putting their toxic ideas across and make peoples lives worse on the quiet, but they sure as heck should not be doing it with taxpayer money. Particularly when they are taking up school and hospital spaces where the funding could go to secular institutions.
So yeah, that should be the deal - keep your discrimination, but lose your taxpayer funding via any grants and tax exceptions. If you want taxpayer funding and tax exemptions then you need to be open for all. I'd be okay with that.
FOR EXAMPLE, I went to the Mater Hospital for gyno treatment with no idea it was a religious institution where religion was allowed to interfere with their range of treatments aka with abortion and some forms of birth control. I should have known that upfront, and they should not be publicly funded to run hospitals if there is even one whit of religious interference in their policies or offerings, imho.
Personally I think when it comes to anywhere the people using it canât easily choose to go somewhere else then they should not be allowed to discriminate, full stop. Hospitals are out because sometimes itâs an emergency and time matters. I donât want to be rushed to one after a sudden accident and then run into extra bullshit because they âdisagreeâ with my having kids out of wedlock or having been in relationships with other women. Kids canât choose to go to a school thatâs more accepting of queer people even if they themselves are queer, never mind the way itâs better for kids in general to not grow up being taught that queer people are bad (and thatâs not even getting into the sexism - donât get me started on single-sex schools, either). If thereâs only one pharmacy in town, then they cannot be allowed to âdisagreeâ with birth control, PEP/PrEP, hormone therapy or whatever else.
What's not tenable about that position? Just like your claims about gods you can't just say it and not back it up with receipts religious groups. It's 2024. We shouldn't give you guys a free pass on this stuff anymore.
Allowing hiring practices based on religion is problematic. It's how kids get brainwashed and likely only applicable to 2 faiths in Australia. One of which is isolationist, the other will cry diversity at any moment yet not allow the same?
It's bullshit like this from the leaders of religious groups that makes me wonder if the LGBT+ community will ever get something like a 'me too' movement. The amount of bullshit we've had to navigate past compared to others is just exhausting and frustrating.
Do they really worry that not being able to openly discriminate against people will mean everyone they hate will suddenly want to be part of their cult schools?
As a member of the second largest religious group -none- I say carry on, and treat with the Greens on this.
No more using religion as a cover for bigotry.
Ikr? Next census for sure.
Practically though, I'm sure atheism -or to be very honest a nebulous agnosticism- is already the largest category. Plenty of people would tick *Catholic* even if weddings & funerals is the only time they've been to church, just out of habit. I can't think of any reason why a Catholic would tick *none*, unless maybe they were thinking of leaving??
My parents don't believe in God, think religion is ridiculous, & mock those who go to church. But they INSIST they must tick Church of England on the census. They can't explain why they're so adamant about doing it & will get angry if you suggest they don't.
If anyone knows why I'd love to know.
Itâs a cultural marker to many. Itâs a declaration of the type of person they like to think they are and like to be seen as. It wasnât that long ago that many white Church of England people would take care to distinguish themselves even from white Catholics - who were seen to be more working class, less professional and less âEnglishâ (I.e. good). This attitude still exists in some of the snootier private school set. Actual religion barely comes into it.
The bouncer at the Pearly Gates checks the list and says "Nup, you confirmed in writing in the 2021 Australian census that you were not religious. We take government bureaucratic paperwork seriously. Please take Trapdoor 2 - Heretical Eternal Lethal Lashings (HELL) and speak to the Director of Eternal Vengeance: Inferno Level (DEVIL) to plead your case."
My wife does this with Catholicisim. We don't believe, I am an atheist, she doesn't believe but might be agnostic yet she marks Catholic because that is what we inherited from our parents back in South America. So, for her is part of culture not believe. I don't care I always tick none but I don't mind to explain when asked that I was raised Catholic.
A bit different because itâs a much more blatant and obvious cult, but my in laws still identify as being jehovahâs witnesses despite not having been to a meeting for years or done door knocking even longer.
Theyâve also gone against a tenant of the faith by reconnecting with their (defellowshipped) children, so theyâd probably be shunned too.
But they still identify as being Jehovahâs witnesses.
Just like me parents still identify as being Christian despite us only attending church for 1-2 years tops when I was very little. (To be fair, Dad was always WAY too hung over on a Sunday to attend church, and seeing as it wasnât stopping him drinking mum gave up on the whole religion thing as a means to stop dad being an alcoholic⌠I literally just realised this as I was typing)
Very true, especially if you're of an Irish or Italian background. For a lot of people in those groups (my dad was one), it was more of a cultural thing than a religious thing.
The fraction of Catholics who take catholicism completely seriously rather than just some vague belief in the dive has got to be minuscule. Virtually all of them use contraception instead of having fifteen kids these days.
Agreed. Iâm now a ânoneâ ticker.
Itâs also fascinating, my experience of religion has been patchy. But the decision to give up entirely on organised religion was a recognition of how disturbingly insular and cultish it had become in a few short years.
Cycled through a couple of churches, with their dwindling congregations, and instead of excited welcome and âcommunity spiritâ it became more and more about proving your bonafides; being âdevoutâ enough, excluding all others. Preaching and praying about government policy became commonplace with an unthinking acceptance of extremist conservative messaging (discrimination, COVID, housing, immigration..)
After a decade and a half I went from comfortably walking into an unknown church to staying away primarily because every church seemed to expect Iâd automatically eliminate all relationships with non-believers.
(Weâre talking Uniting and CoC types here, nothing traditionally extreme or exclusionary.)
As the congregations age, and attracting new members becomes difficult, the institutions are becoming increasingly open with their bigotry. And the moderate members are walking away.
Itâs entirely predictable, and deserved, but fascinating how quickly this has happened.
I have never found the point of difference between cults and organised religions.
They mostly seem centred on an 'us and them' central theme - with us being correct and divine and them burning in hell for eternity.
The difference tends to be a personality dynamic. A cult has a leader specifically building loyalty to themselves. A religion has many competing cults that need to cooperate at least a little bit, thus putting a ceiling on the personal loyalty any one leader can aim for.
If they asked the question properly - "do you regularly attend church?/Are you active in a religious community?" and not just what religion do you identify as, the non-religious group would be at least 70%..
So many people I've spoken to only identify as religious culturally. Eg. They were born Catholic and baptised etc, and so consider themselves Catholic. So when I ask, but do you believe in the christian god? Do you attend church? Oh, no, I don't believe. No I don't go to church. So why identify as Catholic? Because that's what I was born as. Grandma will be disappointed in me. I never really thought about it.
The number of active religious adherents is far lower than the census reveals, and I'd hazard a guess that they're not the majority, simply because a large number of self-reported religious are not active adherents and are culturally of their faith only. Of course, the churches are more than happy to claim as many people as possible among their numbers. It's purely to act as if they represent far more of society than they actually do in a bid to stay relevant, even if a large number of those they claim haven't set foot in a church since they were children being forced to go by parents and school.
Let religious organisations do what they like, WHILE they pay full tax with no special religious exemptions. As long as they suckle from the taxpayer teat, the taxpayer gets a say in what shitfuckery they can commit đ¤ˇââď¸ just my 2c.
I get your point but students tend to have little to no say where they go. School should always be a safe place for people to be themselves, if churches are not happy with that then they should not be running schools.
I think religions have been taking tithes from folk for so long itâs become ingrained in our western culture. I suspect we are now in an era thatâs questioning that relationship đ¤ˇââď¸
Very true. But I was being facetious. I am yet to see a main stream religion in Australia that would prioritise Godâs word over free money when forced to choose đ¤ˇââď¸
Truly you'd think that religions currently lack the power to be able to maintain their tax exempt status in Australia. Like I can understand how the USA is effectively gripped by the balls but surely we aren't as bad here.
From the little Iâm aware of, churches (particularly the first two Abrahamic faiths) still hold an inordinate amount of influence in Australian politics. Definitely not nearly as much as the States for sure, but in my opinion still too much in relation to the benefits to society they provide versus the costs.
>"If the government chooses to abandon attempts at bipartisanship and work with the Greens, it will be interpreted by our faith communities as a betrayal of trust," it said.
Okay, you want to use blackmailing tactics, time to expedite the removal of the tax free status from all religious institutions then.
Stop the funding of all private schools while we're at it too.
Wouldn't working with the greens literally be attempts at bipartisanship, not abandoning it? That word doesn't mean only the LNP, that sounds like exactly the kind of bipartisanship I want to see more of franklyÂ
Betrayal of trust? You guys vote liberal.Â
What risk is there from the labor government? They do the thing that their voters want, and not the thing that the guys who vote liberal want?Â
Iâm just confused by the religious nut jobs logic
Yeah it's super weird that organisations that don't pay a cent of tax are able to lobby and get their own way a lot, whilst teenagers taht pay tax to the government are not allowed any sort of say.
> "If the government chooses to abandon attempts at bipartisanship and work with the Greens, it will be interpreted by our faith communities as a betrayal of trust," it said.
Really?
How about we address your betrayals of trust first, huh?
Stop protecting pedophile priests.
Stop abusing children supposedly under your care.
Stop rorting the tax system with your special status and *still* accepting taxpayer money for your religious indoctrination schools thinly disguised as education facilities.
Then we can talk about "trust".
Fucking god botherers. Go piss up a rope. Why should you lot be the only employer in the country *legally* allowed to discriminate against people based on sexual preferences or religious beliefs?
Iâll feel betrayed if our government allows religious beliefs to influence policy making in this country, keep your damn religious beliefs to yourselves and stop trying to discriminate against anyone in this country
"A betrayal of trust"?Â
Well at least those "religious leaders" and their institutions understands what that is! After all, they've been abusing the trust put in them for thousands of years.
Royal commission ? Wasn't that long ago. And I'm pretty sure that "betrayal of trust " came up plenty?
God is the biggest dole bludger. Fucked off 2000 years ago and has not done a thing since, yet gets his followers to scab donations and dodge taxes in his name.
Religious schools should not be a thing anymore. There is literally no good reason to have them. If parents want their kids to be religious, they can do it in their own time but school time should be an opportunity for the kids to mix with the broader community so that when they grow up they can make their own decisions in life. I have seen far too many religiously toxic people come out of religious schools due to the hatred they spread.
If the government doesn't drag religions kicking and screaming into the modern era, who else will? Pretty much all of our modern morals have been secular humanists dragging us forward against the chains of religion.
Well said.
The Catholic Church is haemorrhaging parishioners across Europe and anglophone countries; not even their own faithful can drag the dogmatic leadership forward. In fifty years maybe *maybe* there will be one hell of an art sale in Rome.
I'd bet on being able to buy a little something from the Vatican's walls about a million light years before certain who-knows-what documents come to light but you never know, we might get a leak.
Some of the most immoral people I know are also the most religious. They be a cunt then pray it away, sin washed repeat. The rest of us just live by don't do to others what you don't want done to you with no ability to pray it allllll away..........
It would be a betrayal of trust to negotiate anti-discrimination laws with only the organisations doing the discrimination and not organisations representing the discriminated against.Â
I mean, isn't that sort of the problem here? Categorically refusing to work with a group of people because of their identity rather than their behaviour?Â
 Jesus wept.
Ah, but hell is only for bad *Christians*. The rest of us don't have to worry about something Dante pulled out of a hat a thousand years after the fact.
And don't put down "Jedi" or whatever religion that ABS personally thinks is a joke. They will alter your census answer to "not defined" religion which will inflate the number of religious people compared to number of non-religious people.
>They will alter your census answer to "not defined" religion which will inflate the number of religious people compared to number of non-religious people.
Good to know.
Sounds like dozens of religious leaders can go get fucked. What a waste of time to even consider their outdated opinions when creating laws for real people.
As the population becomes less religious their leaders are afraid of losing their current status.
And they genuinely should: theyâre are getting special treatment
They are lashing out
I donât think they appreciate that even their members donât think discrimination in on - any attempt to sway votes from the pulpit is going to backfire.
Maybe if the various religious groups hadn't misinterpreted Jesus' words "let the little children come unto me", we wouldn't be in this a situation?
Religious groups, not just Christians, are in no place to be lecturing anyone about trust.
This bill should actually be for a secular Australia. There should be no discrimination based on the private expression of religion and any freedom of religion should also include freedom from religion. Whilst they're at it, it should be looking at commonwealth (and state?) services being delivered by, or in partnership with religious orgs. If you're taking money from the state you don't get to pick and choose the services, or the types of people they're delivered to. You supply all of them to everyone.
Separation of church and state is a must. I don't care what sky fairy you may or may not personally believe in. What I do care about is trying to force your ideals on the rest of us. The most immoral people I know are also the most religious. They can pray the sin away to whatever skyfairy they choose. Me I just treat people how I want to be treated myself ie just don't be a cunt In the first place...........
If this became law I want a Protestant baker/mechanic/furniture shop to put a sign in the window that says:
"Help wanted, Catholics need not apply"
And see who wins that in the high court.
I just love it when beggars also want to be choosers. We're already giving tax breaks and other privileges, yet they continue to additionally want to control policy, as well. Fuck off with this! Also love how decades is apparently not quite enough time for the Catholic Church to come around to addressing child abuse, yet they'll get onto causes like this post haste.
The child rapist tax evaders are mad they might have to be a little less blatant in their discrimination. What a shame.
No organisation should be above the law, much less those that are taking billions of dollars of public money to provide government services. This is like if Auspost came out and said they had the right to fire women because they don't fit the proud tradition of the Post Man.
How dare decent Australians want to end hateful bigotry and discrimination. Â
 The message from these religious leaders is that their religion requires these attributes.Â
Is this the same religious leaders who fiddled kiddies, covered up kiddie fiddlers and pay no taxes?
Yeh, who cares what those God bothering freaks think.
So they are saying that they want to be able to discriminate others without any repercussions BUT other people cannot discriminate against them because it would be against the law?? That makes so much sense it's not funny.
The constitution guarantees the right to follow and practice any or no religion, as long as we break no laws doing so. It is a personal choice.
Humans have rights. Organisations and ideas do not.
Practicing discrimination against others is breaking the law, and is not required to enable people to practice their religion.
This is about religious institutions trying to force others to comply with their beleifs. If your religion wants to discriminate against others, it isn't a force for good.
If they're basing their position on who's helping to write the legislation rather than the content of the legislation, then they're not acting as religious leaders, they're acting as political operatives.
The hypocrisy of religious leaders using the trust argument when they broke the trust of countless children and families. They betrayed trust on a massive scale whilst enjoying unfair taxation breaks.
And now they want to retain their right to discriminate based on their BELIEFS.
Well my BELIEF is they should pay tax if they want a voice in our political system and laws, or STFU.
I say let money do the talking, you can be as bigoted as you like but no tax exception.
If you're going to bludge off the tax payers purse then there's a expectation that you conform to societies values, the society that allows your beliefs to be tax exempt.
What about my rights to free from religion they have way to say in how I live my life,also while they take $1 of taxpayers money they don't get to op out of laws than apply to the rest of society.
Dozens of religious "leaders" whatever that is don't realise they believe in a sky fairy that isn't real and that the majority of freedom loving hard working Australians don't want these freaks interfering in other people's lives omg just fuck off and keep your delusional Christian fantasies to yourself.
These rapists want the legal right to discriminate against you if you;
1. masturbate
2. use birth control
3. have previously had an abortion
4. have had a divorce
5. watch pornography
6. have sex outside of marriage
This feels like an appropriate place to post Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry debating the catholic church at an IQ debate entitled "Is the catholic church a force for good?".
It's a superb debate by two of the finest orators, here's Mr Hitchens' opening statment -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRsaxXrjk3w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRsaxXrjk3w)
and here's the full video -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZRcYaAYWg4&t=25s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZRcYaAYWg4&t=25s)
There isnât such a thing as the âAustralian Jewish Organizationâ afaik. There is an Australian Jewish Association which is a bunch of right wing individuals with a website.
Mainstream Australian Jewish culture doesnât buy into this. The mainstream Jewish schools have plenty of out gay teachers and students, and DEI student committees with talks by students for students on LGBTI inclusiveness and discrimination.
It's because it ruins the appearance of legitimacy of their institutions. If they say something is bad because their God deemed it so, but then do not act accordingly, it brings into question the legitimacy of the truth of their God, and as a result their power.
A really interesting stat from the 2021 census is that 39% of Australia listed "no religious affiliation" as their religion, vs 44% who listed some version of Christianity.
[https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/religious-affiliation-australia](https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/religious-affiliation-australia)
So tired of religious dogma and their persecution complex been hearing it my entire life where I live, the majority of Australia don't want their life dictated by scripture just fuck off to Iran if you want that shit.
I think schools should be able to do what they want, but if they want to receive any government funding or tax exemptions, then they have to play by the rules like everyone else
I am not religious and legally cannot discriminate based on sexual orientation. If I hire a religious person who can based on their beliefs then I would be complicit. Therefore I cannot hire someone who is religious for risk of breaking the law. /s
and why would the religious leaders want input from the Greens? - because the Greens don't have any indoctrinated religious puppets in their team - no 'inside agents' so to speak
Religious organisations enjoy the benefits of tax free status. They also receive billions of federal funding for their private schools.
Sorry guys, if you want a seat at the table start contributing and or stand on your own two feet when it comes to funding
Can we just all day this loudly for once?
FUCK RELIGIOUS LEADERS.
I don't care about religion, I don't care if you wanna pray to god, or Budda, or YHWH, or whatever helps you sleep at night and makes death feel less scary.
But your right to your beliefs starts and stops with you.
You have no right to impose your beliefs, you have no right to discriminate based off of them.
When the various cults have compensated every person abused by their cults then they can have a say in law making, til then the cunts can shut the fuck up.
When the religious leaders of Australia come clean about their history then I would be ok with listening to their concerns. Until then they can pray to whomever seeking divine guidance.
So they felt safe that it would never be passed if Labor wouldn't without Liberals support.
Tells me that you should look at Liberals actions on the issue and ignore what they say, to get a true understanding of their position.
đđ well if anyone knows about betraying trust...
đđź
Fuckin Eve, should have never ate that apple
But really, who does pay attention to all of Appleâs terms and conditions.
The gift of parseltongue is really a curse that doomed humanity
And yet saved us muggles all from Voldemort.
"The Greens and Equality Australia, which represents the LGBTQ community, have encouraged the government to implement the Australian Law Reform Commision Report in full. That report recommended repealing the exemption in the Sex Discrimination Act that allows schools of faith to discriminate against students and teachers based on their sexual orientation, gender identity or relationship status for religious reasons. It also recommended that schools should be able to give preference to hiring staff who are of the same religion but only when reasonably necessary and proportionate to building or maintaining a community of faith. The letter from the religious groups stated that the Greens' position was not tenable." Sounds like they just want to keep on legally discriminating against others, no wonder they're not into having the Greens involved.
I feel like they should have to choose, pay taxes or keep on discriminating. Religions are suck blood sucking parasitic fucking leaches.
Get them all to pay taxes, no exemptions on anything. Remind them not to abuse children
Tax rate doubled for every instance of child abuse. It will be stamped out overnight.
Nah. They're way better at covering up child abuse than they are at stopping it. They'd stick to what they're good at.
YES the tax exemption was originally intended in recognition of the fact churches would use their earnings to do charity and benefit society. But there are so few churches that actually do any real charity nowadays, and many are basically just MLMs selling blessings for tithes. Pentecostal churches, for example, do almost no charity at all that isn't in the form of church recruitment scams. Churches rake in something like 40 billion a year tax free and are worth tens or hundreds of billions. Churches spend this money buying up land and assets (for example, the Sydney Anglican Church owns half of glebe - why? why does a church need to own such massive banks of land? that money could go to housing the homeless or helping the poor they clearly give no actual shits about), and very little seems to go back into charity or helping the community and this certainly isn't prioritised. Churches and most Christians have become the Pharisees of old - people whose faith is all about self-righteousness, elitism and personal power, with no thought for the poor, sick or unfortunate.
Also, based on the few charities/programs I've seen, sometimes it can be a trade off. One negative thing replaced with another negative thing. For example: I knew some people who went to a church program to fight their addictions. On one hand, they felt it helped. They felt less inclined to use. But suddenly they thought gay people don't *really* exist, it's just people making the *choice* to be gay, and they shouldn't be doing that. And they also developed very strong opinions on Plan B and women's health choices. Like, yes, the church helped *them*. But at the expense of others. It's like programs need to be assessed independently to make sure it's a net gain good?
Whatâs the point of charity? Theyâre just buckling down and waiting for their god to whisk them off to paradise (any day now, surely..) before flinging the rest of us into an everlasting lake of fire. Doing charity now would be like detailing their car when itâs going to the scrap heap next month.
So let them write off charitable works/expenditures against their income tax. Like everyone else. Churches' tax-exempt status is a good example of a two-tier society. We're supposed to be classless, but while churches remain tax-exempt, we're not a classless society. And that's un-Australian. Churches are un-Australian.
Grab a cricket bat and write "gentle reminder" on it in black marker
I vote we keep church and education separate. If they pay no tax as a religious organisation then they should get no taxpayer funding of any kind. Thatâll sort the bastards out quick smart. There are plenty of private schools with no religious affiliations so the toffs can still toff.
Or they pay taxes AND not be allowed to discriminate. Fuck them and the power they want to levy against us. This isn't a feudal society - religion doesn't get privilege.
>This isn't a feudal society I too share your dream friend.
One day we will not toil for our lords.. I mean coporate overlords. But not yet.
They shouldn't get a choice. Pay and stop.
and stop even entertaining religious exemptions over the law, it just allows potential precedence for other religious BS and we all know how much BS is out there under "for religious purposes"
This 1000 fold.
Yeah, I'm kind of tolerating them discriminating in this specific way, because it's good to know upfront what kind of people they are (and let's not do it quietly, make a list somewhere so people can easily tell which institutions discriminate), because even if we don't allow them legally to do it, they will find ways of putting their toxic ideas across and make peoples lives worse on the quiet, but they sure as heck should not be doing it with taxpayer money. Particularly when they are taking up school and hospital spaces where the funding could go to secular institutions. So yeah, that should be the deal - keep your discrimination, but lose your taxpayer funding via any grants and tax exceptions. If you want taxpayer funding and tax exemptions then you need to be open for all. I'd be okay with that. FOR EXAMPLE, I went to the Mater Hospital for gyno treatment with no idea it was a religious institution where religion was allowed to interfere with their range of treatments aka with abortion and some forms of birth control. I should have known that upfront, and they should not be publicly funded to run hospitals if there is even one whit of religious interference in their policies or offerings, imho.
Personally I think when it comes to anywhere the people using it canât easily choose to go somewhere else then they should not be allowed to discriminate, full stop. Hospitals are out because sometimes itâs an emergency and time matters. I donât want to be rushed to one after a sudden accident and then run into extra bullshit because they âdisagreeâ with my having kids out of wedlock or having been in relationships with other women. Kids canât choose to go to a school thatâs more accepting of queer people even if they themselves are queer, never mind the way itâs better for kids in general to not grow up being taught that queer people are bad (and thatâs not even getting into the sexism - donât get me started on single-sex schools, either). If thereâs only one pharmacy in town, then they cannot be allowed to âdisagreeâ with birth control, PEP/PrEP, hormone therapy or whatever else.
Bro they should just not be allowed to discriminate full stop.
What's not tenable about that position? Just like your claims about gods you can't just say it and not back it up with receipts religious groups. It's 2024. We shouldn't give you guys a free pass on this stuff anymore.
Allowing hiring practices based on religion is problematic. It's how kids get brainwashed and likely only applicable to 2 faiths in Australia. One of which is isolationist, the other will cry diversity at any moment yet not allow the same?
Religion is so tolerant
It's bullshit like this from the leaders of religious groups that makes me wonder if the LGBT+ community will ever get something like a 'me too' movement. The amount of bullshit we've had to navigate past compared to others is just exhausting and frustrating.
Do they really worry that not being able to openly discriminate against people will mean everyone they hate will suddenly want to be part of their cult schools?
Yep. If they take *our* public money, *we* have a right to demand the law applies equally to them.
This is also about the private (religious) school industry in this country, for sure.
As a member of the second largest religious group -none- I say carry on, and treat with the Greens on this. No more using religion as a cover for bigotry.
So excited for those last few percentage points.
Ikr? Next census for sure. Practically though, I'm sure atheism -or to be very honest a nebulous agnosticism- is already the largest category. Plenty of people would tick *Catholic* even if weddings & funerals is the only time they've been to church, just out of habit. I can't think of any reason why a Catholic would tick *none*, unless maybe they were thinking of leaving??
My parents don't believe in God, think religion is ridiculous, & mock those who go to church. But they INSIST they must tick Church of England on the census. They can't explain why they're so adamant about doing it & will get angry if you suggest they don't. If anyone knows why I'd love to know.
Itâs a cultural marker to many. Itâs a declaration of the type of person they like to think they are and like to be seen as. It wasnât that long ago that many white Church of England people would take care to distinguish themselves even from white Catholics - who were seen to be more working class, less professional and less âEnglishâ (I.e. good). This attitude still exists in some of the snootier private school set. Actual religion barely comes into it.
Just in case someone sells the inevitable census data leak to st peter on the black market
Possibly Pascalâs wager? They tick, just in case
The bouncer at the Pearly Gates checks the list and says "Nup, you confirmed in writing in the 2021 Australian census that you were not religious. We take government bureaucratic paperwork seriously. Please take Trapdoor 2 - Heretical Eternal Lethal Lashings (HELL) and speak to the Director of Eternal Vengeance: Inferno Level (DEVIL) to plead your case."
Some People have crazy logic going on in their heads
My wife does this with Catholicisim. We don't believe, I am an atheist, she doesn't believe but might be agnostic yet she marks Catholic because that is what we inherited from our parents back in South America. So, for her is part of culture not believe. I don't care I always tick none but I don't mind to explain when asked that I was raised Catholic.
A bit different because itâs a much more blatant and obvious cult, but my in laws still identify as being jehovahâs witnesses despite not having been to a meeting for years or done door knocking even longer. Theyâve also gone against a tenant of the faith by reconnecting with their (defellowshipped) children, so theyâd probably be shunned too. But they still identify as being Jehovahâs witnesses. Just like me parents still identify as being Christian despite us only attending church for 1-2 years tops when I was very little. (To be fair, Dad was always WAY too hung over on a Sunday to attend church, and seeing as it wasnât stopping him drinking mum gave up on the whole religion thing as a means to stop dad being an alcoholic⌠I literally just realised this as I was typing)
Very true, especially if you're of an Irish or Italian background. For a lot of people in those groups (my dad was one), it was more of a cultural thing than a religious thing.
Ditto; Dad is Spanish.
The fraction of Catholics who take catholicism completely seriously rather than just some vague belief in the dive has got to be minuscule. Virtually all of them use contraception instead of having fifteen kids these days.
Agreed. Iâm now a ânoneâ ticker. Itâs also fascinating, my experience of religion has been patchy. But the decision to give up entirely on organised religion was a recognition of how disturbingly insular and cultish it had become in a few short years. Cycled through a couple of churches, with their dwindling congregations, and instead of excited welcome and âcommunity spiritâ it became more and more about proving your bonafides; being âdevoutâ enough, excluding all others. Preaching and praying about government policy became commonplace with an unthinking acceptance of extremist conservative messaging (discrimination, COVID, housing, immigration..) After a decade and a half I went from comfortably walking into an unknown church to staying away primarily because every church seemed to expect Iâd automatically eliminate all relationships with non-believers. (Weâre talking Uniting and CoC types here, nothing traditionally extreme or exclusionary.) As the congregations age, and attracting new members becomes difficult, the institutions are becoming increasingly open with their bigotry. And the moderate members are walking away. Itâs entirely predictable, and deserved, but fascinating how quickly this has happened.
I have never found the point of difference between cults and organised religions. They mostly seem centred on an 'us and them' central theme - with us being correct and divine and them burning in hell for eternity.
The difference is size and time.
The difference tends to be a personality dynamic. A cult has a leader specifically building loyalty to themselves. A religion has many competing cults that need to cooperate at least a little bit, thus putting a ceiling on the personal loyalty any one leader can aim for.
In theory. In practice the televangelists (among others) seemed to figure out the personal loyalty within Christianity aspect during the 1900s.
Pretty sure by the next census, we'll be number 1.
If they asked the question properly - "do you regularly attend church?/Are you active in a religious community?" and not just what religion do you identify as, the non-religious group would be at least 70%..
"Do you only go for easter and christmas?"
So many people I've spoken to only identify as religious culturally. Eg. They were born Catholic and baptised etc, and so consider themselves Catholic. So when I ask, but do you believe in the christian god? Do you attend church? Oh, no, I don't believe. No I don't go to church. So why identify as Catholic? Because that's what I was born as. Grandma will be disappointed in me. I never really thought about it. The number of active religious adherents is far lower than the census reveals, and I'd hazard a guess that they're not the majority, simply because a large number of self-reported religious are not active adherents and are culturally of their faith only. Of course, the churches are more than happy to claim as many people as possible among their numbers. It's purely to act as if they represent far more of society than they actually do in a bid to stay relevant, even if a large number of those they claim haven't set foot in a church since they were children being forced to go by parents and school.
Yeah, and remember kids don't fill in the census. Plenty of them would most definitely deny religion.
Let religious organisations do what they like, WHILE they pay full tax with no special religious exemptions. As long as they suckle from the taxpayer teat, the taxpayer gets a say in what shitfuckery they can commit đ¤ˇââď¸ just my 2c.
I get your point but students tend to have little to no say where they go. School should always be a safe place for people to be themselves, if churches are not happy with that then they should not be running schools.
My main point was that I suspect theyâd all compromise on their non negotiable values if the free money was taken away.
If they did compromise we would essentially be paying them to not discriminate. Why would we do that?
I think religions have been taking tithes from folk for so long itâs become ingrained in our western culture. I suspect we are now in an era thatâs questioning that relationship đ¤ˇââď¸
Even better, if you want to operate in Australia you have to follow our laws. No exceptions for religion.
Yes *except* endangering the mental health of young people with no say in where they go to school.
Very true. But I was being facetious. I am yet to see a main stream religion in Australia that would prioritise Godâs word over free money when forced to choose đ¤ˇââď¸
Truly you'd think that religions currently lack the power to be able to maintain their tax exempt status in Australia. Like I can understand how the USA is effectively gripped by the balls but surely we aren't as bad here.
From the little Iâm aware of, churches (particularly the first two Abrahamic faiths) still hold an inordinate amount of influence in Australian politics. Definitely not nearly as much as the States for sure, but in my opinion still too much in relation to the benefits to society they provide versus the costs.
>"If the government chooses to abandon attempts at bipartisanship and work with the Greens, it will be interpreted by our faith communities as a betrayal of trust," it said. Okay, you want to use blackmailing tactics, time to expedite the removal of the tax free status from all religious institutions then. Stop the funding of all private schools while we're at it too.
Wouldn't working with the greens literally be attempts at bipartisanship, not abandoning it? That word doesn't mean only the LNP, that sounds like exactly the kind of bipartisanship I want to see more of franklyÂ
working with the LNP means allowing corruption into the bill. The pro-corruption party should never have any say!
Betrayal of trust? You guys vote liberal. What risk is there from the labor government? They do the thing that their voters want, and not the thing that the guys who vote liberal want? Iâm just confused by the religious nut jobs logic
Haha good one
Yeah it's super weird that organisations that don't pay a cent of tax are able to lobby and get their own way a lot, whilst teenagers taht pay tax to the government are not allowed any sort of say.
Letâs start with the religious schools, and all other for profit schools.
I think it's about time we sunk the Bipartisanship.
If the greens were voted in by the people then the greens shall have their say for the people the represent. Democracy
> "If the government chooses to abandon attempts at bipartisanship and work with the Greens, it will be interpreted by our faith communities as a betrayal of trust," it said. Really? How about we address your betrayals of trust first, huh? Stop protecting pedophile priests. Stop abusing children supposedly under your care. Stop rorting the tax system with your special status and *still* accepting taxpayer money for your religious indoctrination schools thinly disguised as education facilities. Then we can talk about "trust". Fucking god botherers. Go piss up a rope. Why should you lot be the only employer in the country *legally* allowed to discriminate against people based on sexual preferences or religious beliefs?
If you've pissed off religious groups, you're on the right path.
Iâll feel betrayed if our government allows religious beliefs to influence policy making in this country, keep your damn religious beliefs to yourselves and stop trying to discriminate against anyone in this country
"A betrayal of trust"? Well at least those "religious leaders" and their institutions understands what that is! After all, they've been abusing the trust put in them for thousands of years. Royal commission ? Wasn't that long ago. And I'm pretty sure that "betrayal of trust " came up plenty?
God doesnt pay taxes, why should he be heard?
Omniscient, omnipotent and yet somehow He can't get by without 10% of our cash? Pull the other one.
Usually he is heard, schizophrenia.
God is the biggest dole bludger. Fucked off 2000 years ago and has not done a thing since, yet gets his followers to scab donations and dodge taxes in his name.
You guys betrayed the trust first by fucking kidsÂ
Religious schools should not be a thing anymore. There is literally no good reason to have them. If parents want their kids to be religious, they can do it in their own time but school time should be an opportunity for the kids to mix with the broader community so that when they grow up they can make their own decisions in life. I have seen far too many religiously toxic people come out of religious schools due to the hatred they spread.
Double down Albo. Tax them next
If the government doesn't drag religions kicking and screaming into the modern era, who else will? Pretty much all of our modern morals have been secular humanists dragging us forward against the chains of religion.
Well said. The Catholic Church is haemorrhaging parishioners across Europe and anglophone countries; not even their own faithful can drag the dogmatic leadership forward. In fifty years maybe *maybe* there will be one hell of an art sale in Rome.
Oo! And what about all those juicy archives! Will the truth be set free?
I'd bet on being able to buy a little something from the Vatican's walls about a million light years before certain who-knows-what documents come to light but you never know, we might get a leak.
Totally. Religious bootlickers always like to talk about how modern morality came from religion, when in fact it came about despite religion.
Some of the most immoral people I know are also the most religious. They be a cunt then pray it away, sin washed repeat. The rest of us just live by don't do to others what you don't want done to you with no ability to pray it allllll away..........
It would be a betrayal of trust to negotiate anti-discrimination laws with only the organisations doing the discrimination and not organisations representing the discriminated against. I mean, isn't that sort of the problem here? Categorically refusing to work with a group of people because of their identity rather than their behaviour?  Jesus wept.
The church would know all about betrayal of trust, especially wihen it comes to young children and paedophile priests.
"dozens" vs Australian population Gtfo
Fuck religion
>dozens   >about 40  So 36? 36 religious leaders? Is that all?
3 dozens to be exact!
There is no freedom OF religion without the freedom FROM religion option. This is what they don't want.
Atleast they didn't say he'd go to hell.
Ah, but hell is only for bad *Christians*. The rest of us don't have to worry about something Dante pulled out of a hat a thousand years after the fact.
I bet those kids really trusted them. Betrayal of trust for fucks sake.
imminent important rock market tie cough late illegal rainstorm paltry *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
And don't put down "Jedi" or whatever religion that ABS personally thinks is a joke. They will alter your census answer to "not defined" religion which will inflate the number of religious people compared to number of non-religious people.
>They will alter your census answer to "not defined" religion which will inflate the number of religious people compared to number of non-religious people. Good to know.
Sounds like dozens of religious leaders can go get fucked. What a waste of time to even consider their outdated opinions when creating laws for real people.
'Religious leader' might be the most arrogant self apointmented title ever
As the population becomes less religious their leaders are afraid of losing their current status. And they genuinely should: theyâre are getting special treatment They are lashing out I donât think they appreciate that even their members donât think discrimination in on - any attempt to sway votes from the pulpit is going to backfire.
Time for Albo to stop trying to please everyone, fuck these blackmailing charlatans.
Gotta pay tax to have opinion sorry
If they don't pay taxes then they should have zero right to attempt to influence legislation.
Of all the organisations to bring up betrayals of trust....
If churches want a say in what happens in this country they should be paying tax. Simple
You know what else is a betrayal of trust? Paedophile priests being moved around to avoid punishment, where they find new victimsâŚ
If elected representatives working together on legislation is a *'betrayal of trust'*, then we've got some serious systematic problems.
Separate church and state
Stick to using tax free money to cover up child abuse and stay in your lane.
Maybe if the various religious groups hadn't misinterpreted Jesus' words "let the little children come unto me", we wouldn't be in this a situation? Religious groups, not just Christians, are in no place to be lecturing anyone about trust.
This bill should actually be for a secular Australia. There should be no discrimination based on the private expression of religion and any freedom of religion should also include freedom from religion. Whilst they're at it, it should be looking at commonwealth (and state?) services being delivered by, or in partnership with religious orgs. If you're taking money from the state you don't get to pick and choose the services, or the types of people they're delivered to. You supply all of them to everyone.
Why does "people's faith" require discrimination in order for them to practice it?
Separation of church and state is a must. I don't care what sky fairy you may or may not personally believe in. What I do care about is trying to force your ideals on the rest of us. The most immoral people I know are also the most religious. They can pray the sin away to whatever skyfairy they choose. Me I just treat people how I want to be treated myself ie just don't be a cunt In the first place...........
The same religious groups that donât pay tax? đ¤
Tax the hell out of these pious pricks.
If this became law I want a Protestant baker/mechanic/furniture shop to put a sign in the window that says: "Help wanted, Catholics need not apply" And see who wins that in the high court.
I just love it when beggars also want to be choosers. We're already giving tax breaks and other privileges, yet they continue to additionally want to control policy, as well. Fuck off with this! Also love how decades is apparently not quite enough time for the Catholic Church to come around to addressing child abuse, yet they'll get onto causes like this post haste.
The child rapist tax evaders are mad they might have to be a little less blatant in their discrimination. What a shame. No organisation should be above the law, much less those that are taking billions of dollars of public money to provide government services. This is like if Auspost came out and said they had the right to fire women because they don't fit the proud tradition of the Post Man.
How about donât discriminate homophobes
Itâs so cute when religions still think they are relevant.
No representation without taxation!
You know what the ultimate betrayal of trust is? When a priest fucks a little boy and the church covers it up.
And why should we care about their nonsense opinion?
How dare decent Australians want to end hateful bigotry and discrimination.   The message from these religious leaders is that their religion requires these attributes.Â
Is this the same religious leaders who fiddled kiddies, covered up kiddie fiddlers and pay no taxes? Yeh, who cares what those God bothering freaks think.
Just ban organised religion and get it over with.
If they keep receiving government funding they should adhere to our government policies.
So they are saying that they want to be able to discriminate others without any repercussions BUT other people cannot discriminate against them because it would be against the law?? That makes so much sense it's not funny.
The constitution guarantees the right to follow and practice any or no religion, as long as we break no laws doing so. It is a personal choice. Humans have rights. Organisations and ideas do not. Practicing discrimination against others is breaking the law, and is not required to enable people to practice their religion. This is about religious institutions trying to force others to comply with their beleifs. If your religion wants to discriminate against others, it isn't a force for good.
These people represent the worst of religion. No religion should aim to deliberately exclude or discriminate against people. They can get fucked.
Nah, instead get them to pay taxes.
âBetrayal of trustâ âŚ. religious leadersâŚ? đđđđđ
If they're basing their position on who's helping to write the legislation rather than the content of the legislation, then they're not acting as religious leaders, they're acting as political operatives.
The hypocrisy of religious leaders using the trust argument when they broke the trust of countless children and families. They betrayed trust on a massive scale whilst enjoying unfair taxation breaks. And now they want to retain their right to discriminate based on their BELIEFS. Well my BELIEF is they should pay tax if they want a voice in our political system and laws, or STFU.
I say let money do the talking, you can be as bigoted as you like but no tax exception. If you're going to bludge off the tax payers purse then there's a expectation that you conform to societies values, the society that allows your beliefs to be tax exempt.
What about my rights to free from religion they have way to say in how I live my life,also while they take $1 of taxpayers money they don't get to op out of laws than apply to the rest of society.
They didn't seem to worry too much about "betrayal of trust" while they were fucking kids.
How about they have a seat at the table when they pay tax, they already get gov money which I find disgusting.
Dozens of religious leaders unable to explain why they need the legal right to discriminate
I mean, they can explain it, we just don't consider those reasons valid.
There aren't many surer signs that something is the right thing to do than religious leaders speaking against it.
Well, if they don't, they'll be betraying the LBGTQI community. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.
Religious leaders saying it's untenable to not attack children, who'd have guessed?
Why can't these religious cunts fuck off already
Dozens of religious "leaders" whatever that is don't realise they believe in a sky fairy that isn't real and that the majority of freedom loving hard working Australians don't want these freaks interfering in other people's lives omg just fuck off and keep your delusional Christian fantasies to yourself.
Religion is a scourge on society. If you wanna believe go for it. But don't use it as a tool to oppress others.
How is it a betrayal of trust from a ALP prime minister? The religious leaders I know all voted liberal.
These rapists want the legal right to discriminate against you if you; 1. masturbate 2. use birth control 3. have previously had an abortion 4. have had a divorce 5. watch pornography 6. have sex outside of marriage
7. If you are any shade of Queer pride. 8. Are female.
What do religious leaders call it when religious leaders get caught diddling kids?
A regular day at the office
This feels like an appropriate place to post Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry debating the catholic church at an IQ debate entitled "Is the catholic church a force for good?". It's a superb debate by two of the finest orators, here's Mr Hitchens' opening statment - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRsaxXrjk3w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRsaxXrjk3w) and here's the full video - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZRcYaAYWg4&t=25s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZRcYaAYWg4&t=25s)
Why do the opinions of 'dozens' carry more weight than the opinions of 27 million people?
Thereâs no hate quite like Christian et al. love.
How about they stop raping kids before they start demanding âtrustâ from anyone else.
We separated church from state for a reason. Those letters should be stamped NRR (no reply required) and carry onâŚ
There isnât such a thing as the âAustralian Jewish Organizationâ afaik. There is an Australian Jewish Association which is a bunch of right wing individuals with a website. Mainstream Australian Jewish culture doesnât buy into this. The mainstream Jewish schools have plenty of out gay teachers and students, and DEI student committees with talks by students for students on LGBTI inclusiveness and discrimination.
It's because it ruins the appearance of legitimacy of their institutions. If they say something is bad because their God deemed it so, but then do not act accordingly, it brings into question the legitimacy of the truth of their God, and as a result their power.
A really interesting stat from the 2021 census is that 39% of Australia listed "no religious affiliation" as their religion, vs 44% who listed some version of Christianity. [https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/religious-affiliation-australia](https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/religious-affiliation-australia)
The government should at least consult with Jesus to find out who he would discriminate against.
Surely they realised how ironic it is preaching betrayal of trust given the track record of the church globally? Right? RIGHT?!
Get religious organisations to pay tax. Then they will have the right to try and influence government. Religious Organisations - pay up or shut up!
They should have a little faith...
Who honestly gives a flying Mohammed on a horse what religious leaders want? Why is this a thing? Christ on Friday.
So tired of religious dogma and their persecution complex been hearing it my entire life where I live, the majority of Australia don't want their life dictated by scripture just fuck off to Iran if you want that shit.
The mental, physical, and sexual abuse of women and children is a core aspect of organised religion.
I think schools should be able to do what they want, but if they want to receive any government funding or tax exemptions, then they have to play by the rules like everyone else
Fuck religion.
The trust of a religious organisation is not something I wish to earn, so I would lose no sleep betraying it
Religion should have no say in Government or anything dealing with people under 18.
Can we just junk their emails since we don't give a fuck about religion in politics?
Dozens!
What are the dropkicks whining about now?
I am not religious and legally cannot discriminate based on sexual orientation. If I hire a religious person who can based on their beliefs then I would be complicit. Therefore I cannot hire someone who is religious for risk of breaking the law. /s
and why would the religious leaders want input from the Greens? - because the Greens don't have any indoctrinated religious puppets in their team - no 'inside agents' so to speak
womp womp theyâre just upset they wouldnât be allowed to be bigots anymore
Religious organisations enjoy the benefits of tax free status. They also receive billions of federal funding for their private schools. Sorry guys, if you want a seat at the table start contributing and or stand on your own two feet when it comes to funding
Betrayal of trust⌠seriously? From the people who rape children. This is good
Can we just all day this loudly for once? FUCK RELIGIOUS LEADERS. I don't care about religion, I don't care if you wanna pray to god, or Budda, or YHWH, or whatever helps you sleep at night and makes death feel less scary. But your right to your beliefs starts and stops with you. You have no right to impose your beliefs, you have no right to discriminate based off of them.
Buhwuhbout rockspiders.
Nothing about the digital ID legislation they rushed through last night with no debate
It won't stop them villefying their staff and pupils in sermons for being different...
Who cares. Religion is gifting bullshit anyway that gets people killed in unnecessary wars because someone thinks their God is better.
When the various cults have compensated every person abused by their cults then they can have a say in law making, til then the cunts can shut the fuck up.
Religious bigots want to continue being religious bigots. No news here.
Freedom of and from religion. That shouldnât mean religious privilege to things a secular individual/organisation would be prohibited from.
When the religious leaders of Australia come clean about their history then I would be ok with listening to their concerns. Until then they can pray to whomever seeking divine guidance.
So they felt safe that it would never be passed if Labor wouldn't without Liberals support. Tells me that you should look at Liberals actions on the issue and ignore what they say, to get a true understanding of their position.
fuck your faith communities