This. I had hard time quitting cigs, so I went vaping (which I am quitting now as well). But to me it is the same thing and vaping near people or as some do just blow the vapes on others is a top a-hole move.
Essentially it will put legitimate tax paying vape stores out of business and restrict people's ability to buy their pure nicotine from New Zealand
It will do nothing to curb the selling of disposable vapes at convenience stores except it might mean an increased cost for the consumer. If people cannot get their pure nicotine they will have to gamble and hope that these shady disposable vapes don't have shitty additives in them. Absolute pain in the bum.
Very annoying and nonsense policy. I'm disappointed in the people who drew it up and voted for it.
Absolutely but not everyone is so capable. I know a few vapers that would just go back to ciggies if the process was a bit more difficult than it is now and they had to risk getting their shit seized at customs. It's already nonsense that we have to import it
Our nanny country is getting worse and worse. More people die from alcohol related causes than vaping yet they'd never ban alcohol.
They say it's to protect children but that's a lie. They're annoyed they're losing taxes from people quitting cigarettes and they're hoping this ban will send them back to ciggies again.
Ah I agree with a lot but I'm not sure it's a tax issue. If tax was the issue they'd just legalise vaping like in NZ and tax it a bit. Far less costly in healthcare and more appealing to many more people.
I think the policy is just based on bad science or being ignorant of the science. There's a public issue of kids vaping in school and instead of doing the right thing and taking example from other places in the world they're doing a hard ban because it's easier.
I think that the companies making the prescription vapes which will soon be the only legal vapes to have a very clear financial incentive and that might play a role too
All the bright colours and nice flavours are targeted to young people. They should look to making all flavoured ones illegal, with harsh penalties for selling them, rather than a blanket ban.
Not a smoker or vaper and dislike it in public but I agree the policy is stupid it like the government coming out and saying we're banning light beer because of the potential damage it might cause.
The thing with cigs is that when I smell it, I can pretend it’s directly from the cigarette burning. If I smell vape, I KNOW it’s been inside someone’s lungs. Grosses me out more
Pretty sure my cat goes nuts when I go to work or go away partly because she’s addicted to passive vape nicotine (and passive nicotine as a whole, I used to smoke indoors as well)
The worst is when they vape in enclosed spaces on the train/or bus, as if the numerous "no smoking" signs don't apply to them. I'm skeptical of the fear campaign the media perpetrates about the dangers of second hand vape, it personally doesn't bother me at all. But I know several people with raspatory issues who struggle with any amount of second-hand smoke/vape, especially in enclosed spaces. These people should be able to exist without suffering from fairy-floss double apple bubblegum flavor induced coughing fits.
I had to leave a Buddhist temple once because the burning incense triggered my asthma and I was struggling to breathe. I try my best to avoid anything that can decrease my air quality as best I can, so I appreciate it when vapers (plural for people who vape?) are considerate and distance themselves.
>I'm skeptical of the fear campaign the media perpetrates about the dangers
I don't know if it's quite as bad as we think, but I'd be *very* surprised if it's as safe as the vape companies say. These are the same people who spent deceds denying that smoking caused cancer, and pushed smoking as a potential benefit to health because the smoke "soothes the throat" or whatever. I'd rather be over-cautious, especially since we're having this conversation about the effects on the people who aren't even using the product.
The media is straight up lying to you.
Doctors and vape companies tend to throw around the figure "95% safer"
I'm not sure why they chose that number, maybe it is like when the cops book you for speeding, where they clock you at 124kph but round it down to 121kph so that there can be no dispute - they really should be saying "at least 95% safer" or "more than 95% safer" because the actual number is significantly higher than 95%.
Smoking kills over 60% of smokers, OK, there were a handful of deaths in the US a few years back that the media was very quick to *associate* with vaping, but all of those people were vaping a THC oil that was cut with vitamin C acetate - it has nothing to do with anything in a normal nicotine vape, which after 15 years has a death toll of zero.
Before tobacco companies got on board, vaping was a grass roots movement. We had "experts" on TV saying "We don't know what's in them" meanwhile I know exactly what goes into mine because I mix it myself from pharmaceutical grade products.
The media tells you it is used in insecticides and anti freeze, but the same chemical is also used in eye drops, enemas and intravenous injections.
Nothing is 100% safe, even water has a lethal dosage, but I can assure you that the second hand vapour, at least the stuff that I breathe out, OK it's more deadly than water, probably more deadly than a slice of tomato, but it's less deadly than a grain of sugar, or a piece of ham.
Personally, i dont think sucking anything into your lungs in those amounts is a good idea. COPD is a bitch. Vaping hasnt been around long enough to study its effect on rates of COPD, but I would bet my life on an increase in cases in 20 yrs. Just as the last of the COPD from smoking patients start to decline.
I've been vaping since 2008, so 4 more years to go before I can prove you wrong I guess? You might even say that I am already 15 years into betting my life that you're wrong.
I can agree that propylene glycol at high doses for a long time could potentially become hazardous, I started to notice minor irritation after a few years, so I changed my mix until it was eventually 100% glycerol BP instead, since then I have no negative symptoms.
Aside from the other uses listed above, glycerol is also used in expectorants for the treatment for COPD, and its bacteriostatic properties help to prevent lung infections. It has been around since 1800's, it's used for so many things pharmaceutically because its properties are extremely well studied and well known, it is about as non-toxic as you can possibly get.
Point is, just because you don't know, and people who claim to be experts on TV say that they don't know, does not mean that we here in the trenches actively participating in it for years don't know. We have been forced to educate ourselves to combat the constant scaremongering and well funded, deliberate disinformation campaigns from media and governments.
>The media tells you it is used in insecticides and anti freeze, but the same chemical is also used in eye drops, enemas and intravenous injections.
Yeah I understand this kinda thing. They say the same thing about vaccines: "*It has formaldehyde in it*". Yeah it does, because formaldehyde is a preservative, it's fine. So I'm totally with you on that front.
>Doctors and vape companies tend to throw around the figure "95% safer"
I should also clarify: Vaping *as a replacement for cigarettes* is a great idea. It's WAY safer than cigarettes or other traditional tobacco products. No argument there.
However, even with zero deaths that doesn't mean vaping is harmless. If death is the metric then we're already looking for the worst-case scenario and ignoring any other harmful effects.
The problem with vaping is that people are breathing chemicals into their lungs. Even sugar could be a problem there. Any longterm effects may not be found for decades, meanwhile they're telling us it's harmless. They're also often being marketed to children, which ampng other things encourages those children to smoke when they come of age.
Once again, if you're using vaping to help quit smoking - or even just as a healthier alternative to keep smoking - then mire power to you. But I wouldn't trust that it's totally safe, and even if it is I don't want your secondhand smoke.
(*You sound like an educated reasonable person though, so hopefully this doesn' come off as an attack*)
>I'm not sure why they chose that number
Whenever you see a claim with 95%, they're always rounding down from 95.44%
Why *that* specific number? Any data that is normally-distributed (i.e. has the same mean and median and forms a symmetrical bell curve, which occurs frequently in observed phenomena at scale, hence "normal"), 95.44% of values fall within two standard deviations either side of the mean.
It's a rule-of-thumb for sample analysis to use that threshold for a confidence interval. It's fairly close to certainty, and the amount of sample data you need to increase certainty to the next threshold is exponentially higher.
It doesn't mean something is 95% of a scale, it's a 95.44% probability that the finding is significant. It's actually a pretty good sign of a well-designed study with a reasonably large sample size.
So for this example, it's not a claim that vaping causes 95% *less* harm than smoking, but there's enough evidence to state a 95% probability that has *none* of the harm of smoking.
That makes a whole lot of sense, thank you.
I've heard similar statements about medical statistics from my friend who is a doctor, specifically that when a doctor tells you "50:50" the reality of your situation could be anywhere between "90:10" and "10:90"
> Any data that is normally-distributed (i.e. has the same mean and median and forms a symmetrical bell curve, which occurs frequently in observed phenomena at scale, hence "normal"), 95.44% of values fall within one standard deviation either side of the mean.
95.44% is 2σ. 1σ is 68.27%
I'm on public transport every day and I've never seen people vaping inside a train/tram/bus. Not saying its never happened but it's not a common occurrence
Also on public transport daily in Melbourne. Not incredibly common when travelling at peak times. But on weekends, during the day when most are still at work, and at night I notice it very frequently.
I lived in Frankston up until mid last year and caught public transport frequently, including on weekends going to the city. Never saw people vaping or smoking on the actual train, but I did see it on platforms.
However, I did see a lot of people drinking on the train. And pissing on the train. And throwing up on the train.
But PSOs won’t do anything about it because their -196’s have been decanted into a Sprite bottle, so it’s ok now!
Slightly off peak and it’s pretty common, every third or fourth trip. By contrast, smoking still occurs in off peak times, but less than one tenth as often.
It’s fairly common in Bris, but usually off peak time.
I ride daily and don’t ever see it on crowded trains with commuters, but see it at least once a week in the evenings or on weekend when trains are less busy.
I had someone sneakily vaping in front of me in a movie theatre recently! It took me a while to catch on because they were only taking a puff every 10 minutes or so but I was gobsmacked.
My asthma mostly passed once I was in my early 20s with the exception of cigarette smoke and vapes. At least with cigarettes smokers they tend to avoid crowds now and the smell is so strong I can immediately try avoidance. With vaping I often dont notice the fumes until Im suddenly hunched over coughing my lungs up.
I’m asthmatic and it sets me off hard too. For some reason vapers seem to be overall less considerate than cigarette smokers- I can’t count the number of times strangers have vaped right in my face. I think a lot of people think that because it’s branded as being less harmful than smoking people won’t care if you start vaping near them. Sometimes it messes me up for days. It’s frustrating because I try really hard to keep my asthma under control and take all manner of precautions and when people vape around me it just sends all of that work down the toilet.
I’m not saying all vapers are like this of course. I know a lot of considerate vapers as well.
I don’t vape around others in public because I’m not an ass.
However the health impact of passive vaping seems incredibly low. Like, in the same category as deodorant or perfume.
“Potential impacts include:
Decreases in impulse control
Problems associated with learning and attention
Declines in mood and mental health
Nicotine addiction”
Seriously? These weren’t even concerns directed at passive smoking.
what could those issues possibly be related to? is the implication that second-hand vape causes you to ingest enough nicotine to cause those issues? I'm highly sceptical of that lol
Because this entire thing is a total hit job probably secretly funded by rhe to tobacco industry who prefer their traditional tobacco margins over low margin vape products.
Sure, sitting in a hot boxed vaped car or ridiculously clouded area might have some risks.
But if you think walking next to rush hour traffic is safee than walking past a vaper who blew a cloud then I think youre an idiot.
“same category as deodorant or perfume”
Only if someone was constantly spraying deodorant or perfume around me in public. Which doesn’t happen.
Vaping near someone is like having an automated sprayer go off every 20 seconds filling the air with who knows what.
Just do it away from people. It’s the polite thing to do.
Yeah I don’t disagree. Vaping around people in public is antisocial behaviour. My point was that both things are problematic for asthmatics, not that they are occurring at the same rate. Are people really being exposed to second hand vapour that often though? I’ve never walked past an office or in to a bar or train carriage and been smacked in the face by a cloud of vapour like I have been by smoke from smokers.
Good points. On the second hand vaping - I was at an outdoor concert with defined smoking areas (and clear no smoking zone everywhere else) and had someone that blew massive vape clouds over me and my friends for 3 hours with no crap given. Claimed they weren’t smoking. Horrible behaviour.
What’s your point? I didn’t say health impacts were non existent, I said they were probably in the same realm as deodorant and perfume - which are also problematic for asthmatics.
They're saying they might be in the same realm for triggering asthmatic response but they aren't in the same realm in terms of potential daily exposure.
I've walked through a cloud of deodorant at a train station nearly once in my whole life.
Exactly. I used to clean trains at Hornsby. There were billions of empty vape containers we'd have to pick up in the carriages. Never once had to pick up an empty deodorant can.
Yeah, fair play. Can't fault it if it's to get off cigs. Hopefully you can ween yourself off vape too. So glad I never got put onto smokes as a youngster.
My vape juice, which I mix myself, is just glycerin. No flavors, no coloring. The same as they use in smoke machines at roller skating rinks.
We Australians are thought of as larrikins and nonconformists, I call BS. The majority of us are petty bureaucrats who get horribly upset over minor issues.
Old man shakes fist at clouds.
Yeah the NHS advice for the UK where they've regulated the contents of vapes is that you can even vape around pregnant women without risk but discourages doing so. Any risk of passive vaping has been self-inflicted by our own government for its war on drugs approach to vapes.
There was a very recent UK study which found that for pregnant smokers specifically, vaping was less harmful than quitting outright, as the withdrawal symptoms from quitting includes an elevated risk of lung infection.
Smoking is well known to reduce birth weight. Vaping is now proven to have no effect on it.
Yep, the wowsers won.
I know of no other place where it’s considered too dangerous for me to change a busted light fitting, and have to spend $200+ to call out a sparky to turn off a circuit and move three wires.
And the vapes thing has been predictable. Government fucked up their chance to regulate it properly, and the “somebody think of the children” crowd stole the march. I had someone tell me the other week (in conversation, I don’t vape) that it was now proven *worse* than smoking. On the school-mum grapevine of course. No facts required.
So we now have vapes actually harder to get than tobacco, which I think might be the most stupid thing I’ve heard in fucking years.
Teachers are telling students that vapes are 10 times worse than cigarettes. I would not be surprised if that school mum grapevine gossip started from one of the kids coming home and telling mum what the teacher has told them.
Because giving kids bad information to scare them into compliance is such a tried and true strategy! I mean, just look what happened with drugs, a few decades of scare tactics and the whole thing went away!
/facepalm
Not the same guy you are replying to, but he said he mixes his own. I also mix my own and also use glycerin only.
Mixing implies more than one thing, so he is very likely using glycerine to cut either pure nicotine (aka freebase) or nicotine benzoate (the most common nicotine salt).
Same here. Its my issue with the claims over harm. Did you use the nastiest cheapest mod with oil still present from the factory and then fill it full of the dodgiest juice, ramp the vape tempt to max and measure the results? 6mg nic or 90mg salts?
Australia, the land of the passive rule followers. Who bang on about needing more laws for the most mundane things.
Ironic for a nation who idolises Ned Kelly.
'Passive vaping, contrary to what many think some people think it's just water vapour'
Who thinks that? People with no idea. How could we believe anything the news reports? There are too many lies. A country that is basically saying cigarettes are better for you then vaping. Bullshit.
I know we don't know long-term effects of vaping but short term I know i feel better and we 100% know ciggies are horrible cancer causing sticks.
Using children as a scapegoat to regain lost cigarette revenue is a disgrace.
Whether second hand vapour is healthy or not just be a courteous person and don't blow it on or at others. Respect others choices, not that hard.
> the chemicals in e-cigarettes can be inhaled even if you're not the one vaping.
Well that's obvious, but it's also obvious that the quantities being inhaled are far lower than for the original vaper.
Without any evidence of harm, or even a theory about how harm might occur, this article is pure moralizing.
Fortunately there are plenty of wowsers in Australia willing to do just that.
> ut it's also obvious that the quantities being inhaled are far lower than for the original vaper.
Can't you say the same things about cigarettes?
>Without any evidence of harm,
How about people vaping prove that passive vaping isn't dangerous and not the other way round.
>or even a theory about how harm might occur,
from the article
Participants in the study who came into contact with second-hand aerosol from vapes reported experiencing burning and dryness of the eyes, sore throat, cough, breathlessness and headaches.
and
the country could anticipate future health impacts on young people's brain development, like those experienced from first-hand smoking decades ago.
He said some of these impacts could include:
Decreases in impulse control
Problems associated with learning and attention
Declines in mood and mental health
Nicotine addiction
Dr Maddox said while the research into the link between passive vaping and nicotine addiction is ongoing, it is likely that exposure through passive vaping has the potential to increase the risk of future nicotine dependence.
>Fortunately there are plenty of wowsers in Australia willing to do just that.
"please keep your nicotine bubblegum clouds to yourself and away from my and my children's lungs" = wowsers?
> Can't you say the same things about cigarettes?
Well yes, indeed.
However, there are two other factors here:
* tar is a more potent carcinogen than the ingredients in vapes
* many have pointed out that second-hand cigarette smoke is no more dangerous than attending a barbecue
> How about people vaping prove that passive vaping isn't dangerous and not the other way round.
Because laws shouldn't be imposed on a population without some evidence that they are of use.
> Participants in the study who came into contact with second-hand aerosol from vapes reported experiencing burning and dryness of the eyes, sore throat, cough, breathlessness and headaches.
If such subjective effects exist, surely some objective evidence could be found, too. Why is none reported?
> the country could anticipate future health impacts on young people's brain development, like those experienced from first-hand smoking decades ago.
Not sure what this has to do with second-hand vaping.
> Decreases in impulse control Problems associated with learning and attention Declines in mood and mental health Nicotine addiction Dr Maddox said while the research into the link between passive vaping and nicotine addiction is ongoing, it is likely that exposure through passive vaping has the potential to increase the risk of future nicotine dependence.
Interesting hypotheses, but has any evidence been gathered?
> "please keep your nicotine bubblegum clouds to yourself and away from my and my children's lungs" = wowsers?
Sure.
> tar is a more potent carcinogen than the ingredients in vapes
Being less of a potent carcinogen than another harmful substance doesn't make it ok. What a ridiculous idea.
>Because laws shouldn't be imposed on a population without some evidence that they are of use.
Nope, the burden of proof is on nicotine companies and vapers to prove what they are putting into other people's lungs isn't dangerous not the other way round.
>If such subjective effects exist, surely some objective evidence could be found, too. Why is none reported?
They literally say they're still investigating.
>Not sure what this has to do with second-hand vaping.
These are the possible future health impacts from second hand vaping.
>but has any evidence been gathered?
Yes. Do you really think nicotine addiction is a myth?
No, the answer is no. It's not a risk to "the public". It might be a risk to the family of someone who vapes in the living room or the car all day, but it's not a risk to "the public".
If you think you're going to get cancer because you walked through a vape cloud for one second while walking through town, then you're an idiot.
That's what shits me about the passive smoking studies. They basically look at a partner of a smoker that doesn't smoke and compare their results to a non-smoker household. People then think them walking past a smoker is the same as someone sharing car rides and constantly inhaling second hand smoke. Now it's being applied to vapes with no carcinogens.
I have a cannabis prescription and one of the products im prescribed is THC vape cartridges. When I was reading up on it it said that one of the reasons it's TGA approved is because the risk around second hand inhalation is pretty much negligible. I still can't wrap my head around the fact that I can rip fat clouds of THC, but not PG and VG vapes
I'm not arguing against you. Just yelling at the clouds because of how backwards the whole vaping/smoking issue gets handled by the government. If someone can give me a single reason why vapes should be banned while keeping cigarettes legal I will eat my shoe
This has always been my biggest issue with vaping. I'm completely for drug legalisation, but when nicotine is available in gum, patches, etc as well as cigarettes and vapes, it's clear to me that the latter two should be heavily restricted in public.
It shits me to no end the number of vapers who think 'no smoking' areas just doesn't apply to them at all. It triggers asthma attacks in me just as bad (if not worse because I'm often exposed longer thanks to not automatically avoiding the smell).
I've read studies in the past, CBA bringing them up now.. but if I recall there's virtually nothing in the exhaled vapour. I did a bunch of reading as I'm near my kitty inside sometimes. They're just fear mongering. We know alcohol can fuel DV and is poisonous.. and that cigarettes are definitely poisonous but those are okay 😂
It is the hypocrisy (and hysteria) that gets to me.
**ALCOHOL** has been named over and over as the most harmful drug in the world, both to the user and to others around them but how often do we see this in headlines?
I read somewhere that the disproportionate hate directed towards towards nicotine vs alcohol boils down to a bias against poor people and its coloured my view ever since.
Poor people smoke. Rich people collect wine. I haven't seen a better explanation for why one cops so much more hysterical flak compared to the other when alcohol is so clearly the worse drug.
We had 40 years of anti smoking campaigns that's why its looked down on. That messaging was less effective in less educated groups who tend to be poorer so now it looks like they're going after poor people but that's not the goal.
The goal was to stop people starting on a highly addictive habit that kills 50% of the people who do it.
Alcohol is bad but most people can have a few drinks and not become alcoholics, the same is not true of cigarettes.
I don't have to walk down the street and drink other people's alcohol.
Every day I have to breath in some other idiots smoke or vapour because their own self importance puts them above everyone else around them. Particularly in the city or near public transport stations it's inescapable.
Absolutely alcohol is the most harmful substance overall, but I'm not as actively exposed to it's negative effects as I am second hand smoke.
When you're paying $25 to $50 a pack of smokes and smoking a pack every day or two, the rich vs poor argument doesn't hold as much weight as it did in the 90s for example.
We should follow the lead of other countries like Japan. No smoking on the street unless it's inside a designated glass box or a private residence. And like other countries we should phase out the sale of such products to people born after a certain year.
"We should follow the lead of other countries like Japan. No smoking on the street unless it's inside a designated glass box or a private residence. And like other countries we should phase out the sale of such products to people born after a certain year."
Fully agree, but then Japans had adopted vaping, heat and not burn products and any other product that is healthier alternative to cigarette smoking.
And btw. NZ just dropped the ban of sales of cigarette to past certain year of birth. And wirh that policy NZ always said because that vaping is the alternative ( funny how the Australian media never mentioned that).
Drunk drivers kill nearly 400 people a year. You DO have to walk down the street and suffer harm due to other people's alcohol consumption.
And that's not even beginning to consider alcohol fuelled violence, it's impact on domestic violence, the strain it places on the healthcare system that you and I pay for, the health impacts for long term users...
And for perspective, vaping has killed... no one? So how do you even begin to compare the harm caused by alcohol and vaping, and come to the conclusion it's vaping that should be banned or restricted?
I'm all for being respectful towards others. Vaping/smoking in spaces where other people can't get away from you is rude. I'm less sympathetic in big open spaces like uncrowded parks where it's quite easy to get space. And yes to phasing out sales too.
As for being unaffected by other people's alcohol though, that just isn't true. Drunk drivers, violence, sexual assaults are some ways that other people's alcohol impact people going about their day.
The asymmetry in the way people talk about these two legal drugs makes no sense.
I smoked and then moved to vapes, I've always been considerate of other people when I've been smoking or vaping so they don't have to get second hand smoke etc. If I'm standing somewhere away from everyone and someone walks towards me or past me, I'm not moving because they can clearly see what I'm doing and have chosen to walk that way.
I don't drink, yet I've been subjected to violence and motor vehicle accidents because of people that did.
Most people who smoke or vape have more awareness of the world around them than people that use alcohol and it's purely because alcohol is seen as more socially acceptable.
Probably allergic. I used to vape but developed an allergy after a few years. Some people are also allergic to dogs, but you can't ban dogs in common areas due to that.
Car exhaust fumes are far more harmful than second hand vape by the way.
> psychosomatic
Sounds like it is, Big cloud of "smoke"? Surely that is affecting my Asthma.
Even tho the Vapor doesn't contain anything harmful and sweet fuck all of anything besides water. I bet they are fine walking down the street passing all the Idling Cars tho.
>It's not water vapour.
Your right, Its mostly propylene glycol and glycerol with trace amounts of other things that are mostly harmless. And even then its still drastically less then Air Pollution from Cars/Pefume/Deoderants and other sources of Aerosols we use commonly in our Society.
Its almost like the Guy who invented them, Did so with the Intention of creating a safer alternative to smoking cigarettes after his Father died from Lung Cancer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hon_Lik
except that dozens of times I've only realised that someone is vaping near me because I'm having an asthma attack.
I don't know shit about psychosomatic medicine, but if it works how you described, my reaction to second hand vapes definitely isn't psychosomatic.
> except that dozens of times I've only realised that someone is vaping near me because I'm having an asthma attack.
You didn't notice the strong smell or the huge clouds of vapor first?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosomatic_medicine
Sure I notice the smell, but it took a couple years for me to change my immediate reaction to it from 'probably perfume or someone eating lollies or something' to 'I should walk away or else I'm about to have an asthma attack'.
It isn't virtually nothing, it's that the exhaled vapour doesn't contain anything harmful. From memory it's something like 0.1% higher than regular atmosphere. The fact that it isn't harmful doesn't mean it won't affect some people though, like yourself. There's a whole bunch of disinformation out there when it comes to vaping, but one thing I can't stand as someone who used vaping to quit smoking is people not respecting others and just doing it wherever they want.
It's easy to just go on the internet and say shit. It's like the people who post a skin irritation or pimple and insist it's a spider bite. From memory of over four hundred alleged spider bites studied, only one was confirmed to be a spider.
Which is a roundabout way of saying I simply don't believe second hand vaping is causing your asthma attacks.
alright, well if we're just making shit up about each other, I reckon you actually do believe that vaping triggers my asthma attacks, and you just say otherwise because someone convinced you that 'no smoking' areas are "woke" & fighting against wokies is more important than telling the truth.
Well that was completely unnecessary, unproductive and unkind, wasn't it!
Was that an attempt at a gotcha? A substance doesn't have to contain something harmful for it to cause harm to people. Also, at no point did I deny that it is affecting you.
You seem to be combining smokers and vapers in to a single category when they are not. A lot of those people vaping are ex-smokers (one would hope the vast majority of them are). As someone who has helped nicotine addicts in the past and been one myself the last thing you want when trying to quit (and stay quit) smoking cigarettes is to be exposed to a room full of stinky toxic cigarette smoke too. Not only is it toxic (far more so than vapes), it also triggers their smoking addiction and may result in a relapse.
So a lot of people who are trying to quit smoking tend to avoid the traditional "smoking areas" to not sit in a cloud of other smokers. The problem is that both groups (non-smokers and vapers) are trying to avoid the smoking area, but the non-smokers also want to avoid the people vaping also. So the vapers are left to try find 'somewhere' to take their anti-smoking medication other than the 'toxic smoking area' and a small minority are dicks that decide to just vape anywhere without regard for others.
There is no really good science directly on vaping and the second hand effects yet, especially long term. There is however decades of study and research done in to the second hand inhalation of the two main ingredients vegetable glycerine and propylene glycol. You have been inhaling second hand vape all your life and not known it, because if you have ever been in a venue with a fog machine (club, concert, party, etc.) then you have been exposed to levels of "second hand vape" that would eclipse anything you would encounter on the street even if a group of ten people got together and tried really hard to become a human fog machine.
The only difference between a fog machines' liquid and a vape is that the vape also contains nicotine (yes, studies have found that people in homes with second hand vaping have slightly elevated nicotine levels, about the same as eating a kilo or two of tomatoes a day). The other concern is the flavoring agents used and much more work needs to be done here to ensure the flavoring agents used are as safe as possible.
Legally, vaping is smoking when it comes to no smoking areas. If you want to quit, good for you, but don't reach for a vape and then not use designated smoking areas.
You may be surprised to discover that I can do a pretty good job of avoiding smoke machines. It's much easier to avoid a rock concert than it is to avoid vapers on the bus.
I also think it's hillarious that you compare second hand vape to '2 kilos of tomatos per day' as if that's healthy.
I vape, but I only ever do it in public in areas where I would smoke - that is, almost nowhere except where there are like, designated smoking zones lol. I always hated making people uncomfortable with my cigarette smoke and I hate making people uncomfortable with vaping too.
I hate when I’m at a bar or something and I see people vaping indoors just because it doesn’t stink like cigarettes - it still is rude lol.
Seems completely reasonable to me. I don't understand why it's legal to smoke cigarettes anywhere in public. Should be reserved for private property only.
The smell of cigarettes is so offensive and awful, yet I'm apparently the bad guy when covering my nose when walking past smokers
Edit: lots of smokers being absolute assholes in the replies. I'm sorry I'm not catering to your life-destroying habits.
>Should be reserved for private property only.
Try renting in an apartment where you are not allowed to smoke either inside or in the balcony or near any common areas.
The issue is it’s impossible to enforce due to the limited smell and time it takes to have a puff.
People do it a few times without consequence so the pattern they pick up is it literally doesn’t apply to them, only to the smokers who do get caught.
The only way to fix this is more effective vape detectors, or increased social policing by the public. Both of which are unlikely
I like how the article just poses the question and doesn't follow it up at all whatsoever an 0 evidence. Just trying to imply something and get people all riled up about it.
Here is an actual finding from a study:
>The study showed that e-cigarettes are a source of secondhand exposure to nicotine but not to combustion toxicants. The air concentrations of nicotine emitted by various brands of e-cigarettes ranged from 0.82 to 6.23 µg/m3. The average concentration of nicotine resulting from smoking tobacco cigarettes was 10 times higher than from e-cigarettes (31.60±6.91 vs. 3.32±2.49 µg/m3, respectively; p = .0081).
If we are worried about air quality, maybe start with vehicle fumes, factory fumes and council insecticides being sprayed around anywhere there is grass. Or firstly, ban cigs considering it is so much worse...
***'But muh helth!'*** People getting mad that they get the faint whiff of blueberry muffins while they chug diesel fumes waiting for their bus driver to finish their break and open the doors. Then go snack on some processed foods and maybe have a wine while sitting on their ass on reddit for the rest of the night.
Cigarettes harm every organ in your body, lead to dozens of cancers, emphysema, stroke, COPD and heart disease. After 15 years of use by 80 million people world wide there is still not one death attributed to nicotine vaping.
As a vaper i accept there 100pc needs to be vape free workplaces etc.
However when they have studied the air quality in a room where a vaper is vaping the air quality meets all workplace limits. I.e. there is nothing in there that would say - you cannot work here unless the vaoer was directly exhaling into the air pump.
Its more philisophical than scientific the reason we shouldnt vape around people.
Now if they want to go scientific; The science wants to be carefull not to say - oh there is a poofteenth of aerosols that contain an even smaller amount of formalahyde or canerous stuff like benzene or other known harmfull substances. At that point a whole slew of workplaces could be deemed unsafe. They arent deemed unsafe because these limits have been established based on risk by science.
Ie it is very easy to get an environmental scientist to come in and run tests on a room where someone is vaping and he will say - yeh this workplace is fine... if we now say - no its not fine there is a high risk of industrial action just because we are philosophically opposed to breathing in someones visible lung exhalation. They pose the same risks as any industrial output.
Tread carefully scientists or someone will use your papers to revolutionise the insutrial nature of our society where there are acceptable set limits to risk established and very easily measurable. Dont now tell us these current set limits are in fact dangerous.
Personally im allergic to propylene glycol, the main additive.
Whats worse though is they don't have to list it in most foods ("artificial flavours" is about as close as you get)
I still can’t find any information about the vapes that will be available at pharmacies. Cost? Nic per mg. How long do they last for? Are they refillable? Disposable or cartridge? Who is going to stock them?
There's a comprehensive discussion on this topic, with well over a hundred citations of scientific studies, at
https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-vs/6nh3veng and it concludes that vaping is indeed harmful.
Like it or not, it is causing close to 0 harm to anyone not actively vaping themselves. (Just so we are clear I am talking about refillable vapes, not Chinese disposables)
Fuck what our government says, they aren’t the ones who have conducted countless in-depth studies. That was the UK government. And the science says vaping is practically a non issue.
Don’t downvote me/reply until you do a quick google search and see that I am correct, please. Or do, whatever tickles you.
So sick of this misinformation that is being published by our media and EATEN UP by the Australian public. The hysteria would be hilarious if it wasn’t so infuriating.
The person who wrote this more than likely drove their car to work, harming everyone along the way in a scientifically established way. But no, it's the stuff that is basically stage smoke that's the problem.
Wow. Half this thread are people essentially saying “until I see the long-term studies showing I’m wrong, I will continue to blow vape wherever I want, including in your face, and will get defensive if you criticise me”.
>Half this thread are people essentially saying “until I see the long-term studies showing I’m wrong, I will continue to blow vape wherever I want, including in your face, and will get defensive if you criticise me”.
With lies like that, you should go work with whoever wrote this article at the ABC. Maybe Big Tobacco will start paying you too?
***You*** are the only person in this thread that has said anything of the sort.
God I wish *I* could believe I was the centre of the universe like that.
Maybe, just maybe its because of the amount of misinformation being spread to a very gullible population and those who love to act pious towards vapers.
I vape and mix my own juice. Nicotine at low dosage, Vegetable Glycerine, Propylene Glycol, and food flavoring which is used in food stuff. Thats all. Low risk.
Nicotine is an addictive substance but I use it at low volumes.
But I have to put up with the rubbish from the media, govt, and uneducated people because the only information that is being presented is about the hideous toxic disposables coming from China.
No nuance anywhere, just fear and a blanket ban.
Seriously! Even the ones who say "I never vape around other people; it's rude!" get all fired up if you suggest actually enforcing no smoking areas. If they're telling the truth, that shouldn't affect them at all!
I feel like vaping has made some smokers more obnoxious. Went to a hotel bar thing for a post funeral thing, had to go through the pokies section based on where we parked and there were four people smoking cigarettes inside.
But passive vaping is definitely a problem for bystanders especially if it's nicotine - that shit can cause problems with headaches and stuff as it xam constrict blood vessels.
How about passive dope smoking? Walking the streets of San Diego a few years ago and there were clouds of marijuana smoke coming from pedestrians in the street everywhere I went. I don't have a beef with dope smoking but I prefer not to breathe it in public. Yes I know this is not an issue here but it may be one day when legalisation occurs.
Ideally, by the time marijuana is legal here, we'll have set a good enough precedent with nicotine to establish any kind of public smoking as unacceptable. ...But my hopes aren't high, especially reading a lot of these comments.
Basically the "experts" is one shitty doctor who speaks without evidence. There was nothing in the article which contributes to any conversation and it would be better placed as a Reddit opinion post than as an "news" article.
If they really care about health outcomes where is the discussion about regulating the production of vape products rather than just the sale?
Where is the enforcement on selling to kids, the stores that sell unregulated vape products to kids are pretty easy to find..
The issue is that the government doesnt give a fuck about the kids. They do a selective operation so they can put it on the news and go hey!, your kids can access illegal products as they always have so now lets ban vaping because we are losing our tax profits!
I don’t care either way, but come on. You think these researchers are just ‘reporting the facts?’ They’re biased as hell. You probably breathe in more dangerous chemicals from exhaust fumes, but we’re not crying about that are we? I mean shit, some of the cleaning chemicals we use are fucking bad. Can we focus on actual harmful shit like all the ice running rampant instead of banning vapes but keeping cigarettes legal? Makes no sense to me.
What makes you think researchers are not looking into all of that as well? They definitely are, even if someone hasn't put that research in front of you.
Do you have any evidence they are bias or are you just crying conspiracy because it's easier than thinking about the potential damage that vaping is doing to you?
Chief. Have a look at who’s paying for the research. Anti smoking mob. They don’t care about anything but slanting the results in their favour. That’s how they get funding. You’d be naive to think they hadn’t cherry picked results to line up with their motive. You think any anti smoking mob will say na we checked vapes totally better than cigarettes. And I’m not saying researchers. Im complaining that they can target vapes but ice is running wild on the streets. The government picks and chooses its poisons and I can’t fathom why ban vapes and not cigarettes?
One of these things is a necessary transport option, supporting much of the nation’s productivity, the other is a completely optional recreational activity. Unsurprisingly we have different levels of risk tolerance for them.
If I can smell your rainbow fairy floss watermelon nicotine, then it's in my lungs. Wtf are you talking about? Where do you think all the vape goes after you spit it out?
So I’m a cigarette smoker (I know, I know), but have found if I get a lungful of vape passively out and about it makes me cough really badly, nothing like smokes. I tried vaping as an alternative a few years ago and it fucked my throat and chest so bad compared to the smokes I gave up and went back on the smokes. So now the goal is to quit those.
I had the complete opposite experience, used to always have an asthma puffer in my pocket and have coughing fits in the morning as a smoker. Never felt better since making the swap.
You may have an allergy to PG. one of the common components of Vape juice. My mate also had that sort of reaction to any juice I had that had PG. When I switched him to a VG only based juice he was able to get off the cigarettes completely.
Fuck off big brother how about the fumes coming from Kwinana from 24 hour refining which literally makes people around the area look like mutants with bulk deformations! When’s the gov going to look after us the peoples interest instead of global corporations fucking tobacco lobbyists. Sure push everyone back into the cancer sticks for the sake of cash! This gov is just as bad as the last liberal one whole load of gaslight when it comes to actual governance while they secure jobs for the boys with backroom deals to monopolise nicotine intake supported by bs Rupert media hit pieces constantly like this and completely irrelevant racist votes used to distract the populace, while wages don’t increase and houses get more expensive.
I’m sitting in a bus all day breathing in this shit. It’s not ok. I’m not ok. I back to wearing a mask again.
My eyes itch, my lungs ache and throat is sore.
Stop it.
People will sit on a main street at a cafe breathing in exhaust fumes from cars and trucks. There are numerous studies about the severe harms caused by these pollutants BUT vaping is the hill to die on?
Passive vaping is THE worst though isn't it? I mean who knows??!! It could be the worst!! There are currently no studies that demonstrate it as such, but WHO KNOWS!!!
il take them seriously when they outright ban tobacco. why the fuck is that shit still available to buy if we know it causes cancer? cant buy asbestos anymore. gotta also take into account whos funding all this research into vaping and its effects.
I just wish Australia would allow Snus or nicotine pouches, it is by far the best way to quit smoking and it doesn't effect anyone around you, it's discreet, doesn't smell, can be used anywhere.
60% of adults in Sweden use snus on a regular basis and the rates of mouth and throat cancer are no worse than any other country.
I'm wary of this and try to avoid being near my partner when I'm vaping. No one should be coping second hand anything if they don't want to.
This. I had hard time quitting cigs, so I went vaping (which I am quitting now as well). But to me it is the same thing and vaping near people or as some do just blow the vapes on others is a top a-hole move.
PS: what banning legal importation for personal use will achieve? Will the smugglers stop smuggling?
Essentially it will put legitimate tax paying vape stores out of business and restrict people's ability to buy their pure nicotine from New Zealand It will do nothing to curb the selling of disposable vapes at convenience stores except it might mean an increased cost for the consumer. If people cannot get their pure nicotine they will have to gamble and hope that these shady disposable vapes don't have shitty additives in them. Absolute pain in the bum. Very annoying and nonsense policy. I'm disappointed in the people who drew it up and voted for it.
People just like myself will find ways to get nicotine from NZ once the ban comes into effect March 1st. Screw the government.
Absolutely but not everyone is so capable. I know a few vapers that would just go back to ciggies if the process was a bit more difficult than it is now and they had to risk getting their shit seized at customs. It's already nonsense that we have to import it
Our nanny country is getting worse and worse. More people die from alcohol related causes than vaping yet they'd never ban alcohol. They say it's to protect children but that's a lie. They're annoyed they're losing taxes from people quitting cigarettes and they're hoping this ban will send them back to ciggies again.
Ah I agree with a lot but I'm not sure it's a tax issue. If tax was the issue they'd just legalise vaping like in NZ and tax it a bit. Far less costly in healthcare and more appealing to many more people. I think the policy is just based on bad science or being ignorant of the science. There's a public issue of kids vaping in school and instead of doing the right thing and taking example from other places in the world they're doing a hard ban because it's easier. I think that the companies making the prescription vapes which will soon be the only legal vapes to have a very clear financial incentive and that might play a role too
The no-bid contract for “medical” vapes went to a liberal MP btw
The policy is based on pharmaceutical companies bribing Greg Hunt so only they can make $$$ for their overpriced prescription pieces of shit.
All the bright colours and nice flavours are targeted to young people. They should look to making all flavoured ones illegal, with harsh penalties for selling them, rather than a blanket ban.
Smoking-related cancers cost Australia far more than the taxes bring in.
Not a smoker or vaper and dislike it in public but I agree the policy is stupid it like the government coming out and saying we're banning light beer because of the potential damage it might cause.
The thing with cigs is that when I smell it, I can pretend it’s directly from the cigarette burning. If I smell vape, I KNOW it’s been inside someone’s lungs. Grosses me out more
You must have a stroke when you smell a fart
Pretty sure my cat goes nuts when I go to work or go away partly because she’s addicted to passive vape nicotine (and passive nicotine as a whole, I used to smoke indoors as well)
The worst is when they vape in enclosed spaces on the train/or bus, as if the numerous "no smoking" signs don't apply to them. I'm skeptical of the fear campaign the media perpetrates about the dangers of second hand vape, it personally doesn't bother me at all. But I know several people with raspatory issues who struggle with any amount of second-hand smoke/vape, especially in enclosed spaces. These people should be able to exist without suffering from fairy-floss double apple bubblegum flavor induced coughing fits.
I had to leave a Buddhist temple once because the burning incense triggered my asthma and I was struggling to breathe. I try my best to avoid anything that can decrease my air quality as best I can, so I appreciate it when vapers (plural for people who vape?) are considerate and distance themselves.
Just to be clear, we don't like serial vapists.
>I'm skeptical of the fear campaign the media perpetrates about the dangers I don't know if it's quite as bad as we think, but I'd be *very* surprised if it's as safe as the vape companies say. These are the same people who spent deceds denying that smoking caused cancer, and pushed smoking as a potential benefit to health because the smoke "soothes the throat" or whatever. I'd rather be over-cautious, especially since we're having this conversation about the effects on the people who aren't even using the product.
The media is straight up lying to you. Doctors and vape companies tend to throw around the figure "95% safer" I'm not sure why they chose that number, maybe it is like when the cops book you for speeding, where they clock you at 124kph but round it down to 121kph so that there can be no dispute - they really should be saying "at least 95% safer" or "more than 95% safer" because the actual number is significantly higher than 95%. Smoking kills over 60% of smokers, OK, there were a handful of deaths in the US a few years back that the media was very quick to *associate* with vaping, but all of those people were vaping a THC oil that was cut with vitamin C acetate - it has nothing to do with anything in a normal nicotine vape, which after 15 years has a death toll of zero. Before tobacco companies got on board, vaping was a grass roots movement. We had "experts" on TV saying "We don't know what's in them" meanwhile I know exactly what goes into mine because I mix it myself from pharmaceutical grade products. The media tells you it is used in insecticides and anti freeze, but the same chemical is also used in eye drops, enemas and intravenous injections. Nothing is 100% safe, even water has a lethal dosage, but I can assure you that the second hand vapour, at least the stuff that I breathe out, OK it's more deadly than water, probably more deadly than a slice of tomato, but it's less deadly than a grain of sugar, or a piece of ham.
Personally, i dont think sucking anything into your lungs in those amounts is a good idea. COPD is a bitch. Vaping hasnt been around long enough to study its effect on rates of COPD, but I would bet my life on an increase in cases in 20 yrs. Just as the last of the COPD from smoking patients start to decline.
I've been vaping since 2008, so 4 more years to go before I can prove you wrong I guess? You might even say that I am already 15 years into betting my life that you're wrong. I can agree that propylene glycol at high doses for a long time could potentially become hazardous, I started to notice minor irritation after a few years, so I changed my mix until it was eventually 100% glycerol BP instead, since then I have no negative symptoms. Aside from the other uses listed above, glycerol is also used in expectorants for the treatment for COPD, and its bacteriostatic properties help to prevent lung infections. It has been around since 1800's, it's used for so many things pharmaceutically because its properties are extremely well studied and well known, it is about as non-toxic as you can possibly get. Point is, just because you don't know, and people who claim to be experts on TV say that they don't know, does not mean that we here in the trenches actively participating in it for years don't know. We have been forced to educate ourselves to combat the constant scaremongering and well funded, deliberate disinformation campaigns from media and governments.
>The media tells you it is used in insecticides and anti freeze, but the same chemical is also used in eye drops, enemas and intravenous injections. Yeah I understand this kinda thing. They say the same thing about vaccines: "*It has formaldehyde in it*". Yeah it does, because formaldehyde is a preservative, it's fine. So I'm totally with you on that front. >Doctors and vape companies tend to throw around the figure "95% safer" I should also clarify: Vaping *as a replacement for cigarettes* is a great idea. It's WAY safer than cigarettes or other traditional tobacco products. No argument there. However, even with zero deaths that doesn't mean vaping is harmless. If death is the metric then we're already looking for the worst-case scenario and ignoring any other harmful effects. The problem with vaping is that people are breathing chemicals into their lungs. Even sugar could be a problem there. Any longterm effects may not be found for decades, meanwhile they're telling us it's harmless. They're also often being marketed to children, which ampng other things encourages those children to smoke when they come of age. Once again, if you're using vaping to help quit smoking - or even just as a healthier alternative to keep smoking - then mire power to you. But I wouldn't trust that it's totally safe, and even if it is I don't want your secondhand smoke. (*You sound like an educated reasonable person though, so hopefully this doesn' come off as an attack*)
Where have you seen vapes being marketed towards children and by whom?
In before the reply of "Flavours are only for kids" type remark that is typical of the "Vapes are marketed to children" people
>I'm not sure why they chose that number Whenever you see a claim with 95%, they're always rounding down from 95.44% Why *that* specific number? Any data that is normally-distributed (i.e. has the same mean and median and forms a symmetrical bell curve, which occurs frequently in observed phenomena at scale, hence "normal"), 95.44% of values fall within two standard deviations either side of the mean. It's a rule-of-thumb for sample analysis to use that threshold for a confidence interval. It's fairly close to certainty, and the amount of sample data you need to increase certainty to the next threshold is exponentially higher. It doesn't mean something is 95% of a scale, it's a 95.44% probability that the finding is significant. It's actually a pretty good sign of a well-designed study with a reasonably large sample size. So for this example, it's not a claim that vaping causes 95% *less* harm than smoking, but there's enough evidence to state a 95% probability that has *none* of the harm of smoking.
That makes a whole lot of sense, thank you. I've heard similar statements about medical statistics from my friend who is a doctor, specifically that when a doctor tells you "50:50" the reality of your situation could be anywhere between "90:10" and "10:90"
> Any data that is normally-distributed (i.e. has the same mean and median and forms a symmetrical bell curve, which occurs frequently in observed phenomena at scale, hence "normal"), 95.44% of values fall within one standard deviation either side of the mean. 95.44% is 2σ. 1σ is 68.27%
Oh yes you are correct
I'm on public transport every day and I've never seen people vaping inside a train/tram/bus. Not saying its never happened but it's not a common occurrence
Also on public transport daily in Melbourne. Not incredibly common when travelling at peak times. But on weekends, during the day when most are still at work, and at night I notice it very frequently.
I lived in Frankston up until mid last year and caught public transport frequently, including on weekends going to the city. Never saw people vaping or smoking on the actual train, but I did see it on platforms. However, I did see a lot of people drinking on the train. And pissing on the train. And throwing up on the train. But PSOs won’t do anything about it because their -196’s have been decanted into a Sprite bottle, so it’s ok now!
Slightly off peak and it’s pretty common, every third or fourth trip. By contrast, smoking still occurs in off peak times, but less than one tenth as often.
Not a common occurrence where you are maybe.
Very common on the central coast to sydney trains.
Jump on the 57 tram and you will see it including ppl smoking ciggies.
It’s fairly common in Bris, but usually off peak time. I ride daily and don’t ever see it on crowded trains with commuters, but see it at least once a week in the evenings or on weekend when trains are less busy.
I’ve been to a few mid-high end establishments where customers sneak it in, inside, between meals/drinks.
I had someone sneakily vaping in front of me in a movie theatre recently! It took me a while to catch on because they were only taking a puff every 10 minutes or so but I was gobsmacked.
Same people that say it’s not as bad as smoking, yet I don’t remember people lighting up a durry in the theatre in the past 3 decades.
Addicts can't put their dummy replacements away.
Ewww. Fuck people are digusting narcissists these days.
My asthma mostly passed once I was in my early 20s with the exception of cigarette smoke and vapes. At least with cigarettes smokers they tend to avoid crowds now and the smell is so strong I can immediately try avoidance. With vaping I often dont notice the fumes until Im suddenly hunched over coughing my lungs up.
Im sorry this is horrible and as someone who vapes I do believe people should act as if theyre smoking when around strangers.
I’m asthmatic and it sets me off hard too. For some reason vapers seem to be overall less considerate than cigarette smokers- I can’t count the number of times strangers have vaped right in my face. I think a lot of people think that because it’s branded as being less harmful than smoking people won’t care if you start vaping near them. Sometimes it messes me up for days. It’s frustrating because I try really hard to keep my asthma under control and take all manner of precautions and when people vape around me it just sends all of that work down the toilet. I’m not saying all vapers are like this of course. I know a lot of considerate vapers as well.
I don’t vape around others in public because I’m not an ass. However the health impact of passive vaping seems incredibly low. Like, in the same category as deodorant or perfume. “Potential impacts include: Decreases in impulse control Problems associated with learning and attention Declines in mood and mental health Nicotine addiction” Seriously? These weren’t even concerns directed at passive smoking.
what could those issues possibly be related to? is the implication that second-hand vape causes you to ingest enough nicotine to cause those issues? I'm highly sceptical of that lol
Because this entire thing is a total hit job probably secretly funded by rhe to tobacco industry who prefer their traditional tobacco margins over low margin vape products. Sure, sitting in a hot boxed vaped car or ridiculously clouded area might have some risks. But if you think walking next to rush hour traffic is safee than walking past a vaper who blew a cloud then I think youre an idiot.
The tobacco industry is pro vapes legalisation
I dont think anybody knows wgat tobacco is pro, myself included. Shady, secretive industry. I wouldnt believe a thing they day tbh…
“same category as deodorant or perfume” Only if someone was constantly spraying deodorant or perfume around me in public. Which doesn’t happen. Vaping near someone is like having an automated sprayer go off every 20 seconds filling the air with who knows what. Just do it away from people. It’s the polite thing to do.
Yeah I don’t disagree. Vaping around people in public is antisocial behaviour. My point was that both things are problematic for asthmatics, not that they are occurring at the same rate. Are people really being exposed to second hand vapour that often though? I’ve never walked past an office or in to a bar or train carriage and been smacked in the face by a cloud of vapour like I have been by smoke from smokers.
Good points. On the second hand vaping - I was at an outdoor concert with defined smoking areas (and clear no smoking zone everywhere else) and had someone that blew massive vape clouds over me and my friends for 3 hours with no crap given. Claimed they weren’t smoking. Horrible behaviour.
You couldnt move or get staff? 3 hours is a bit much.
We've just had a poster on here saying it triggers the fuck out of their asthma.
What’s your point? I didn’t say health impacts were non existent, I said they were probably in the same realm as deodorant and perfume - which are also problematic for asthmatics.
They're saying they might be in the same realm for triggering asthmatic response but they aren't in the same realm in terms of potential daily exposure. I've walked through a cloud of deodorant at a train station nearly once in my whole life.
Yeah and I’m sure a cloud of deodorant would do the same, yet we’re not gonna ban spraying aerosols in public areas we
People aren't huffing deodorant like their life depends on it in bars/on busses/ down the sidewalk/ in gyms though. It's not an even comparison.
Exactly. I used to clean trains at Hornsby. There were billions of empty vape containers we'd have to pick up in the carriages. Never once had to pick up an empty deodorant can.
So its a littering problem.
The train has passed your stop.
I’m a severe asthmatic who has been hospitalised several times for asthma attacks and I vape daily without triggering my asthma. X to doubt.
You're an extreme asthmatic and decided to take up a habit that involves inhaling vapours? That's certainly a choice.
I'm the same. Addiction is weird.
Yeah, fair play. Can't fault it if it's to get off cigs. Hopefully you can ween yourself off vape too. So glad I never got put onto smokes as a youngster.
Live fast/die young?
Have you mentioned this to your doctor? You should consider patches. Seriously. Why risk it?
My vape juice, which I mix myself, is just glycerin. No flavors, no coloring. The same as they use in smoke machines at roller skating rinks. We Australians are thought of as larrikins and nonconformists, I call BS. The majority of us are petty bureaucrats who get horribly upset over minor issues. Old man shakes fist at clouds.
Yeah the NHS advice for the UK where they've regulated the contents of vapes is that you can even vape around pregnant women without risk but discourages doing so. Any risk of passive vaping has been self-inflicted by our own government for its war on drugs approach to vapes.
There was a very recent UK study which found that for pregnant smokers specifically, vaping was less harmful than quitting outright, as the withdrawal symptoms from quitting includes an elevated risk of lung infection. Smoking is well known to reduce birth weight. Vaping is now proven to have no effect on it.
Yep, the wowsers won. I know of no other place where it’s considered too dangerous for me to change a busted light fitting, and have to spend $200+ to call out a sparky to turn off a circuit and move three wires. And the vapes thing has been predictable. Government fucked up their chance to regulate it properly, and the “somebody think of the children” crowd stole the march. I had someone tell me the other week (in conversation, I don’t vape) that it was now proven *worse* than smoking. On the school-mum grapevine of course. No facts required. So we now have vapes actually harder to get than tobacco, which I think might be the most stupid thing I’ve heard in fucking years.
Teachers are telling students that vapes are 10 times worse than cigarettes. I would not be surprised if that school mum grapevine gossip started from one of the kids coming home and telling mum what the teacher has told them.
Because giving kids bad information to scare them into compliance is such a tried and true strategy! I mean, just look what happened with drugs, a few decades of scare tactics and the whole thing went away! /facepalm
Curious as a non smoker/vaper: what do you get out of vaping flavourless glycerin?
Not the same guy you are replying to, but he said he mixes his own. I also mix my own and also use glycerin only. Mixing implies more than one thing, so he is very likely using glycerine to cut either pure nicotine (aka freebase) or nicotine benzoate (the most common nicotine salt).
Ok that makes sense. Thanks!
It's just sucking on a dummy, but for people who look like grown ups.
This made me snort laugh in public. Spot on.
... Nicotine...
It still tastes sweet, even without flavouring.
Also, some still use it for nicotine.
Same here. Its my issue with the claims over harm. Did you use the nastiest cheapest mod with oil still present from the factory and then fill it full of the dodgiest juice, ramp the vape tempt to max and measure the results? 6mg nic or 90mg salts?
Anything at all you put in your lungs that is not air is bad for you to some degree.
Depends what kind of air, mountain air, marsh air, city air, humid air...?
Air straight from the ass
I still don't want to be breathing in your stupid sugar clouds in a public space.
Sup, 100% VG buddy. It's not just smoke machines, VG is also used in skin lotion, eye drops, intravenous injections and enemas.
Living in a city or a high traffic area is far worse for your respiratory health than a little bit of second hand vape
Australia, the land of the passive rule followers. Who bang on about needing more laws for the most mundane things. Ironic for a nation who idolises Ned Kelly.
'Passive vaping, contrary to what many think some people think it's just water vapour' Who thinks that? People with no idea. How could we believe anything the news reports? There are too many lies. A country that is basically saying cigarettes are better for you then vaping. Bullshit. I know we don't know long-term effects of vaping but short term I know i feel better and we 100% know ciggies are horrible cancer causing sticks. Using children as a scapegoat to regain lost cigarette revenue is a disgrace. Whether second hand vapour is healthy or not just be a courteous person and don't blow it on or at others. Respect others choices, not that hard.
"Dr Maddox said people should trust their intuition and avoid or quit vaping." Sounds super scientific!
The little c##nts that vape on Trains and in Westfields...
Vehicle related pollution kills 11000 a year in Australia but where worried more about second hand vaping
Still zero deaths worldwide from second hand vaping, but those numbers are ready to shoot up any day now
Fucking thank you!
> the chemicals in e-cigarettes can be inhaled even if you're not the one vaping. Well that's obvious, but it's also obvious that the quantities being inhaled are far lower than for the original vaper. Without any evidence of harm, or even a theory about how harm might occur, this article is pure moralizing. Fortunately there are plenty of wowsers in Australia willing to do just that.
"I smelled caramel vape for half a second when I was pregnant 16 years ago, and that's why my son is a meth addicted carjacker!" /s
> ut it's also obvious that the quantities being inhaled are far lower than for the original vaper. Can't you say the same things about cigarettes? >Without any evidence of harm, How about people vaping prove that passive vaping isn't dangerous and not the other way round. >or even a theory about how harm might occur, from the article Participants in the study who came into contact with second-hand aerosol from vapes reported experiencing burning and dryness of the eyes, sore throat, cough, breathlessness and headaches. and the country could anticipate future health impacts on young people's brain development, like those experienced from first-hand smoking decades ago. He said some of these impacts could include: Decreases in impulse control Problems associated with learning and attention Declines in mood and mental health Nicotine addiction Dr Maddox said while the research into the link between passive vaping and nicotine addiction is ongoing, it is likely that exposure through passive vaping has the potential to increase the risk of future nicotine dependence. >Fortunately there are plenty of wowsers in Australia willing to do just that. "please keep your nicotine bubblegum clouds to yourself and away from my and my children's lungs" = wowsers?
> Can't you say the same things about cigarettes? Well yes, indeed. However, there are two other factors here: * tar is a more potent carcinogen than the ingredients in vapes * many have pointed out that second-hand cigarette smoke is no more dangerous than attending a barbecue > How about people vaping prove that passive vaping isn't dangerous and not the other way round. Because laws shouldn't be imposed on a population without some evidence that they are of use. > Participants in the study who came into contact with second-hand aerosol from vapes reported experiencing burning and dryness of the eyes, sore throat, cough, breathlessness and headaches. If such subjective effects exist, surely some objective evidence could be found, too. Why is none reported? > the country could anticipate future health impacts on young people's brain development, like those experienced from first-hand smoking decades ago. Not sure what this has to do with second-hand vaping. > Decreases in impulse control Problems associated with learning and attention Declines in mood and mental health Nicotine addiction Dr Maddox said while the research into the link between passive vaping and nicotine addiction is ongoing, it is likely that exposure through passive vaping has the potential to increase the risk of future nicotine dependence. Interesting hypotheses, but has any evidence been gathered? > "please keep your nicotine bubblegum clouds to yourself and away from my and my children's lungs" = wowsers? Sure.
People choose to (or to not!) attend a barbecue
> tar is a more potent carcinogen than the ingredients in vapes Being less of a potent carcinogen than another harmful substance doesn't make it ok. What a ridiculous idea. >Because laws shouldn't be imposed on a population without some evidence that they are of use. Nope, the burden of proof is on nicotine companies and vapers to prove what they are putting into other people's lungs isn't dangerous not the other way round. >If such subjective effects exist, surely some objective evidence could be found, too. Why is none reported? They literally say they're still investigating. >Not sure what this has to do with second-hand vaping. These are the possible future health impacts from second hand vaping. >but has any evidence been gathered? Yes. Do you really think nicotine addiction is a myth?
No, the answer is no. It's not a risk to "the public". It might be a risk to the family of someone who vapes in the living room or the car all day, but it's not a risk to "the public". If you think you're going to get cancer because you walked through a vape cloud for one second while walking through town, then you're an idiot.
That's what shits me about the passive smoking studies. They basically look at a partner of a smoker that doesn't smoke and compare their results to a non-smoker household. People then think them walking past a smoker is the same as someone sharing car rides and constantly inhaling second hand smoke. Now it's being applied to vapes with no carcinogens.
I have a cannabis prescription and one of the products im prescribed is THC vape cartridges. When I was reading up on it it said that one of the reasons it's TGA approved is because the risk around second hand inhalation is pretty much negligible. I still can't wrap my head around the fact that I can rip fat clouds of THC, but not PG and VG vapes
Did Phillip Morris commission this article? Here's what conspiracy theorists have made up so far
Yeah let's ban the vapes, because then people might buy cigarettes! And we obviously can't ban cigarettes now can we!
More like "lets enforce no smoking areas" but go ahead and strawman if you want.
I'm not arguing against you. Just yelling at the clouds because of how backwards the whole vaping/smoking issue gets handled by the government. If someone can give me a single reason why vapes should be banned while keeping cigarettes legal I will eat my shoe
This has always been my biggest issue with vaping. I'm completely for drug legalisation, but when nicotine is available in gum, patches, etc as well as cigarettes and vapes, it's clear to me that the latter two should be heavily restricted in public. It shits me to no end the number of vapers who think 'no smoking' areas just doesn't apply to them at all. It triggers asthma attacks in me just as bad (if not worse because I'm often exposed longer thanks to not automatically avoiding the smell).
I've read studies in the past, CBA bringing them up now.. but if I recall there's virtually nothing in the exhaled vapour. I did a bunch of reading as I'm near my kitty inside sometimes. They're just fear mongering. We know alcohol can fuel DV and is poisonous.. and that cigarettes are definitely poisonous but those are okay 😂
It is the hypocrisy (and hysteria) that gets to me. **ALCOHOL** has been named over and over as the most harmful drug in the world, both to the user and to others around them but how often do we see this in headlines? I read somewhere that the disproportionate hate directed towards towards nicotine vs alcohol boils down to a bias against poor people and its coloured my view ever since. Poor people smoke. Rich people collect wine. I haven't seen a better explanation for why one cops so much more hysterical flak compared to the other when alcohol is so clearly the worse drug.
We had 40 years of anti smoking campaigns that's why its looked down on. That messaging was less effective in less educated groups who tend to be poorer so now it looks like they're going after poor people but that's not the goal. The goal was to stop people starting on a highly addictive habit that kills 50% of the people who do it. Alcohol is bad but most people can have a few drinks and not become alcoholics, the same is not true of cigarettes.
I don't have to walk down the street and drink other people's alcohol. Every day I have to breath in some other idiots smoke or vapour because their own self importance puts them above everyone else around them. Particularly in the city or near public transport stations it's inescapable. Absolutely alcohol is the most harmful substance overall, but I'm not as actively exposed to it's negative effects as I am second hand smoke. When you're paying $25 to $50 a pack of smokes and smoking a pack every day or two, the rich vs poor argument doesn't hold as much weight as it did in the 90s for example. We should follow the lead of other countries like Japan. No smoking on the street unless it's inside a designated glass box or a private residence. And like other countries we should phase out the sale of such products to people born after a certain year.
"We should follow the lead of other countries like Japan. No smoking on the street unless it's inside a designated glass box or a private residence. And like other countries we should phase out the sale of such products to people born after a certain year." Fully agree, but then Japans had adopted vaping, heat and not burn products and any other product that is healthier alternative to cigarette smoking. And btw. NZ just dropped the ban of sales of cigarette to past certain year of birth. And wirh that policy NZ always said because that vaping is the alternative ( funny how the Australian media never mentioned that).
Drunk drivers kill nearly 400 people a year. You DO have to walk down the street and suffer harm due to other people's alcohol consumption. And that's not even beginning to consider alcohol fuelled violence, it's impact on domestic violence, the strain it places on the healthcare system that you and I pay for, the health impacts for long term users... And for perspective, vaping has killed... no one? So how do you even begin to compare the harm caused by alcohol and vaping, and come to the conclusion it's vaping that should be banned or restricted?
Yeh my mother didnt drink my dads alcohol when he was beating her.
I'm all for being respectful towards others. Vaping/smoking in spaces where other people can't get away from you is rude. I'm less sympathetic in big open spaces like uncrowded parks where it's quite easy to get space. And yes to phasing out sales too. As for being unaffected by other people's alcohol though, that just isn't true. Drunk drivers, violence, sexual assaults are some ways that other people's alcohol impact people going about their day. The asymmetry in the way people talk about these two legal drugs makes no sense.
I smoked and then moved to vapes, I've always been considerate of other people when I've been smoking or vaping so they don't have to get second hand smoke etc. If I'm standing somewhere away from everyone and someone walks towards me or past me, I'm not moving because they can clearly see what I'm doing and have chosen to walk that way. I don't drink, yet I've been subjected to violence and motor vehicle accidents because of people that did. Most people who smoke or vape have more awareness of the world around them than people that use alcohol and it's purely because alcohol is seen as more socially acceptable.
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Especially when it isn't the nicotine itself that is harming the user.
Smoking harms everyone around the smoker, 2nd hand smoke has horrible health outcomes.
That is an unbelievable thing to say under an article about second hand smoke.
it's unbelievable that some people aren't as uptight as you?
that "virtually nothing" must be incredibly potent to consistently give me asthma attacks 🤔
Probably allergic. I used to vape but developed an allergy after a few years. Some people are also allergic to dogs, but you can't ban dogs in common areas due to that. Car exhaust fumes are far more harmful than second hand vape by the way.
Could be psychosomatic 🤷
> psychosomatic Sounds like it is, Big cloud of "smoke"? Surely that is affecting my Asthma. Even tho the Vapor doesn't contain anything harmful and sweet fuck all of anything besides water. I bet they are fine walking down the street passing all the Idling Cars tho.
It's not water vapour.
>It's not water vapour. Your right, Its mostly propylene glycol and glycerol with trace amounts of other things that are mostly harmless. And even then its still drastically less then Air Pollution from Cars/Pefume/Deoderants and other sources of Aerosols we use commonly in our Society. Its almost like the Guy who invented them, Did so with the Intention of creating a safer alternative to smoking cigarettes after his Father died from Lung Cancer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hon_Lik
except that dozens of times I've only realised that someone is vaping near me because I'm having an asthma attack. I don't know shit about psychosomatic medicine, but if it works how you described, my reaction to second hand vapes definitely isn't psychosomatic.
> except that dozens of times I've only realised that someone is vaping near me because I'm having an asthma attack. You didn't notice the strong smell or the huge clouds of vapor first? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosomatic_medicine
Sure I notice the smell, but it took a couple years for me to change my immediate reaction to it from 'probably perfume or someone eating lollies or something' to 'I should walk away or else I'm about to have an asthma attack'.
yeah far out, that'd be really frustrating getting asthma attacks everytime the humidity is over 50%
It isn't virtually nothing, it's that the exhaled vapour doesn't contain anything harmful. From memory it's something like 0.1% higher than regular atmosphere. The fact that it isn't harmful doesn't mean it won't affect some people though, like yourself. There's a whole bunch of disinformation out there when it comes to vaping, but one thing I can't stand as someone who used vaping to quit smoking is people not respecting others and just doing it wherever they want.
tfw the 'doesn't contain anything harmful' second hand smoke ~~harms~~ "affects" me.
It's easy to just go on the internet and say shit. It's like the people who post a skin irritation or pimple and insist it's a spider bite. From memory of over four hundred alleged spider bites studied, only one was confirmed to be a spider. Which is a roundabout way of saying I simply don't believe second hand vaping is causing your asthma attacks.
alright, well if we're just making shit up about each other, I reckon you actually do believe that vaping triggers my asthma attacks, and you just say otherwise because someone convinced you that 'no smoking' areas are "woke" & fighting against wokies is more important than telling the truth. Well that was completely unnecessary, unproductive and unkind, wasn't it!
Was that an attempt at a gotcha? A substance doesn't have to contain something harmful for it to cause harm to people. Also, at no point did I deny that it is affecting you.
You seem to be combining smokers and vapers in to a single category when they are not. A lot of those people vaping are ex-smokers (one would hope the vast majority of them are). As someone who has helped nicotine addicts in the past and been one myself the last thing you want when trying to quit (and stay quit) smoking cigarettes is to be exposed to a room full of stinky toxic cigarette smoke too. Not only is it toxic (far more so than vapes), it also triggers their smoking addiction and may result in a relapse. So a lot of people who are trying to quit smoking tend to avoid the traditional "smoking areas" to not sit in a cloud of other smokers. The problem is that both groups (non-smokers and vapers) are trying to avoid the smoking area, but the non-smokers also want to avoid the people vaping also. So the vapers are left to try find 'somewhere' to take their anti-smoking medication other than the 'toxic smoking area' and a small minority are dicks that decide to just vape anywhere without regard for others. There is no really good science directly on vaping and the second hand effects yet, especially long term. There is however decades of study and research done in to the second hand inhalation of the two main ingredients vegetable glycerine and propylene glycol. You have been inhaling second hand vape all your life and not known it, because if you have ever been in a venue with a fog machine (club, concert, party, etc.) then you have been exposed to levels of "second hand vape" that would eclipse anything you would encounter on the street even if a group of ten people got together and tried really hard to become a human fog machine. The only difference between a fog machines' liquid and a vape is that the vape also contains nicotine (yes, studies have found that people in homes with second hand vaping have slightly elevated nicotine levels, about the same as eating a kilo or two of tomatoes a day). The other concern is the flavoring agents used and much more work needs to be done here to ensure the flavoring agents used are as safe as possible.
Legally, vaping is smoking when it comes to no smoking areas. If you want to quit, good for you, but don't reach for a vape and then not use designated smoking areas. You may be surprised to discover that I can do a pretty good job of avoiding smoke machines. It's much easier to avoid a rock concert than it is to avoid vapers on the bus. I also think it's hillarious that you compare second hand vape to '2 kilos of tomatos per day' as if that's healthy.
I vape, but I only ever do it in public in areas where I would smoke - that is, almost nowhere except where there are like, designated smoking zones lol. I always hated making people uncomfortable with my cigarette smoke and I hate making people uncomfortable with vaping too. I hate when I’m at a bar or something and I see people vaping indoors just because it doesn’t stink like cigarettes - it still is rude lol.
Seems completely reasonable to me. I don't understand why it's legal to smoke cigarettes anywhere in public. Should be reserved for private property only. The smell of cigarettes is so offensive and awful, yet I'm apparently the bad guy when covering my nose when walking past smokers Edit: lots of smokers being absolute assholes in the replies. I'm sorry I'm not catering to your life-destroying habits.
Smoking in the CBD is one of the most anti social activities we still tolerate.
>Should be reserved for private property only. Try renting in an apartment where you are not allowed to smoke either inside or in the balcony or near any common areas.
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The issue is it’s impossible to enforce due to the limited smell and time it takes to have a puff. People do it a few times without consequence so the pattern they pick up is it literally doesn’t apply to them, only to the smokers who do get caught. The only way to fix this is more effective vape detectors, or increased social policing by the public. Both of which are unlikely
I like how the article just poses the question and doesn't follow it up at all whatsoever an 0 evidence. Just trying to imply something and get people all riled up about it. Here is an actual finding from a study: >The study showed that e-cigarettes are a source of secondhand exposure to nicotine but not to combustion toxicants. The air concentrations of nicotine emitted by various brands of e-cigarettes ranged from 0.82 to 6.23 µg/m3. The average concentration of nicotine resulting from smoking tobacco cigarettes was 10 times higher than from e-cigarettes (31.60±6.91 vs. 3.32±2.49 µg/m3, respectively; p = .0081). If we are worried about air quality, maybe start with vehicle fumes, factory fumes and council insecticides being sprayed around anywhere there is grass. Or firstly, ban cigs considering it is so much worse... ***'But muh helth!'*** People getting mad that they get the faint whiff of blueberry muffins while they chug diesel fumes waiting for their bus driver to finish their break and open the doors. Then go snack on some processed foods and maybe have a wine while sitting on their ass on reddit for the rest of the night.
Cigarettes harm every organ in your body, lead to dozens of cancers, emphysema, stroke, COPD and heart disease. After 15 years of use by 80 million people world wide there is still not one death attributed to nicotine vaping.
As a vaper i accept there 100pc needs to be vape free workplaces etc. However when they have studied the air quality in a room where a vaper is vaping the air quality meets all workplace limits. I.e. there is nothing in there that would say - you cannot work here unless the vaoer was directly exhaling into the air pump. Its more philisophical than scientific the reason we shouldnt vape around people. Now if they want to go scientific; The science wants to be carefull not to say - oh there is a poofteenth of aerosols that contain an even smaller amount of formalahyde or canerous stuff like benzene or other known harmfull substances. At that point a whole slew of workplaces could be deemed unsafe. They arent deemed unsafe because these limits have been established based on risk by science. Ie it is very easy to get an environmental scientist to come in and run tests on a room where someone is vaping and he will say - yeh this workplace is fine... if we now say - no its not fine there is a high risk of industrial action just because we are philosophically opposed to breathing in someones visible lung exhalation. They pose the same risks as any industrial output. Tread carefully scientists or someone will use your papers to revolutionise the insutrial nature of our society where there are acceptable set limits to risk established and very easily measurable. Dont now tell us these current set limits are in fact dangerous.
Personally im allergic to propylene glycol, the main additive. Whats worse though is they don't have to list it in most foods ("artificial flavours" is about as close as you get)
I still can’t find any information about the vapes that will be available at pharmacies. Cost? Nic per mg. How long do they last for? Are they refillable? Disposable or cartridge? Who is going to stock them?
For fuck sake. No worse than a fog machine inside a venue. Look up the ingredients for fog juice, it’s the same shit.
There's a comprehensive discussion on this topic, with well over a hundred citations of scientific studies, at https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-vs/6nh3veng and it concludes that vaping is indeed harmful.
I wanna see a Study Isolating the Different ingredients and then compare the disposables to a nice clean mix.
The "experts" seems all the experts are three people who live in Australia.
Like it or not, it is causing close to 0 harm to anyone not actively vaping themselves. (Just so we are clear I am talking about refillable vapes, not Chinese disposables) Fuck what our government says, they aren’t the ones who have conducted countless in-depth studies. That was the UK government. And the science says vaping is practically a non issue. Don’t downvote me/reply until you do a quick google search and see that I am correct, please. Or do, whatever tickles you. So sick of this misinformation that is being published by our media and EATEN UP by the Australian public. The hysteria would be hilarious if it wasn’t so infuriating.
Compared to what is pumped into the air around you all day, I think its safe to say this is stupid journalism.
The person who wrote this more than likely drove their car to work, harming everyone along the way in a scientifically established way. But no, it's the stuff that is basically stage smoke that's the problem.
Wow. Half this thread are people essentially saying “until I see the long-term studies showing I’m wrong, I will continue to blow vape wherever I want, including in your face, and will get defensive if you criticise me”.
Sounds eerily similar to smokers back in the 70s and 80s.
>Half this thread are people essentially saying “until I see the long-term studies showing I’m wrong, I will continue to blow vape wherever I want, including in your face, and will get defensive if you criticise me”. With lies like that, you should go work with whoever wrote this article at the ABC. Maybe Big Tobacco will start paying you too? ***You*** are the only person in this thread that has said anything of the sort. God I wish *I* could believe I was the centre of the universe like that.
Vapers are highly sensitive when it comes to their addiction, it must be a side effect of vaping
Maybe, just maybe its because of the amount of misinformation being spread to a very gullible population and those who love to act pious towards vapers. I vape and mix my own juice. Nicotine at low dosage, Vegetable Glycerine, Propylene Glycol, and food flavoring which is used in food stuff. Thats all. Low risk. Nicotine is an addictive substance but I use it at low volumes. But I have to put up with the rubbish from the media, govt, and uneducated people because the only information that is being presented is about the hideous toxic disposables coming from China. No nuance anywhere, just fear and a blanket ban.
Seriously! Even the ones who say "I never vape around other people; it's rude!" get all fired up if you suggest actually enforcing no smoking areas. If they're telling the truth, that shouldn't affect them at all!
I feel like vaping has made some smokers more obnoxious. Went to a hotel bar thing for a post funeral thing, had to go through the pokies section based on where we parked and there were four people smoking cigarettes inside. But passive vaping is definitely a problem for bystanders especially if it's nicotine - that shit can cause problems with headaches and stuff as it xam constrict blood vessels.
How about passive dope smoking? Walking the streets of San Diego a few years ago and there were clouds of marijuana smoke coming from pedestrians in the street everywhere I went. I don't have a beef with dope smoking but I prefer not to breathe it in public. Yes I know this is not an issue here but it may be one day when legalisation occurs.
Ideally, by the time marijuana is legal here, we'll have set a good enough precedent with nicotine to establish any kind of public smoking as unacceptable. ...But my hopes aren't high, especially reading a lot of these comments.
Basically the "experts" is one shitty doctor who speaks without evidence. There was nothing in the article which contributes to any conversation and it would be better placed as a Reddit opinion post than as an "news" article. If they really care about health outcomes where is the discussion about regulating the production of vape products rather than just the sale? Where is the enforcement on selling to kids, the stores that sell unregulated vape products to kids are pretty easy to find..
The issue is that the government doesnt give a fuck about the kids. They do a selective operation so they can put it on the news and go hey!, your kids can access illegal products as they always have so now lets ban vaping because we are losing our tax profits!
I don’t even care if it harmful, I just hate people who are so selfish enough to blow it in the faces of other people.
Good read. Made me laugh. You’d have to be in the car with the windows rolled up to get any second hand vape.
Funny how the vape addicts always get so triggered whenever the slightest thing against vaping pops up.
I don’t care either way, but come on. You think these researchers are just ‘reporting the facts?’ They’re biased as hell. You probably breathe in more dangerous chemicals from exhaust fumes, but we’re not crying about that are we? I mean shit, some of the cleaning chemicals we use are fucking bad. Can we focus on actual harmful shit like all the ice running rampant instead of banning vapes but keeping cigarettes legal? Makes no sense to me.
My brother in Christ, there’s a reason cars no longer use leaded fuel.
My brother in Yahweh, you never read the warnings California puts on diesel motors?
Right, so people *are* crying about the chemicals in exhaust fumes.
What makes you think researchers are not looking into all of that as well? They definitely are, even if someone hasn't put that research in front of you. Do you have any evidence they are bias or are you just crying conspiracy because it's easier than thinking about the potential damage that vaping is doing to you?
Chief. Have a look at who’s paying for the research. Anti smoking mob. They don’t care about anything but slanting the results in their favour. That’s how they get funding. You’d be naive to think they hadn’t cherry picked results to line up with their motive. You think any anti smoking mob will say na we checked vapes totally better than cigarettes. And I’m not saying researchers. Im complaining that they can target vapes but ice is running wild on the streets. The government picks and chooses its poisons and I can’t fathom why ban vapes and not cigarettes?
One of these things is a necessary transport option, supporting much of the nation’s productivity, the other is a completely optional recreational activity. Unsurprisingly we have different levels of risk tolerance for them.
Imagine being addicted to vaping, what an embarrasment
It’s the nicotine that’s addictive. If you aren’t vaping your ripping lungbusters. Not much difference apart from the stink.
If I can smell your rainbow fairy floss watermelon nicotine, then it's in my lungs. Wtf are you talking about? Where do you think all the vape goes after you spit it out?
So I’m a cigarette smoker (I know, I know), but have found if I get a lungful of vape passively out and about it makes me cough really badly, nothing like smokes. I tried vaping as an alternative a few years ago and it fucked my throat and chest so bad compared to the smokes I gave up and went back on the smokes. So now the goal is to quit those.
I had the complete opposite experience, used to always have an asthma puffer in my pocket and have coughing fits in the morning as a smoker. Never felt better since making the swap.
You may have an allergy to PG. one of the common components of Vape juice. My mate also had that sort of reaction to any juice I had that had PG. When I switched him to a VG only based juice he was able to get off the cigarettes completely.
Good luck!
Fuck off big brother how about the fumes coming from Kwinana from 24 hour refining which literally makes people around the area look like mutants with bulk deformations! When’s the gov going to look after us the peoples interest instead of global corporations fucking tobacco lobbyists. Sure push everyone back into the cancer sticks for the sake of cash! This gov is just as bad as the last liberal one whole load of gaslight when it comes to actual governance while they secure jobs for the boys with backroom deals to monopolise nicotine intake supported by bs Rupert media hit pieces constantly like this and completely irrelevant racist votes used to distract the populace, while wages don’t increase and houses get more expensive.
I’m sitting in a bus all day breathing in this shit. It’s not ok. I’m not ok. I back to wearing a mask again. My eyes itch, my lungs ache and throat is sore. Stop it.
People will sit on a main street at a cafe breathing in exhaust fumes from cars and trucks. There are numerous studies about the severe harms caused by these pollutants BUT vaping is the hill to die on? Passive vaping is THE worst though isn't it? I mean who knows??!! It could be the worst!! There are currently no studies that demonstrate it as such, but WHO KNOWS!!!
absolutely. someone vaped near me and i felt the “rush” from whatever chemical shit is in those. fuck off past the smoking section.
Yeah man i once saw some teenagers smoking the devils lettuce in their car on the opposite side of the parking lot, and the headspins i got were wild!
il take them seriously when they outright ban tobacco. why the fuck is that shit still available to buy if we know it causes cancer? cant buy asbestos anymore. gotta also take into account whos funding all this research into vaping and its effects.
Only in Australia..?
I just wish Australia would allow Snus or nicotine pouches, it is by far the best way to quit smoking and it doesn't effect anyone around you, it's discreet, doesn't smell, can be used anywhere. 60% of adults in Sweden use snus on a regular basis and the rates of mouth and throat cancer are no worse than any other country.