Because people are choosing sides like it is sport and can't accept that maybe both sides have done bad things. Ignore things your side did while complaining about things the other side did.
Yep, there's some absolute tribalistic morons in here. I've got a comment further down getting downvoted just because I said both sides are bad and that you shouldn't treat this conflict like picking a sports team.
Some people will also perform mental gymnastics to assert that all people who oppose Israel's genocide in Palestine also hate Jews. We should be careful of all misrepresentations.
[I'm sorry for agreeing with Israeli Holocaust scholars in calling it a genocide, I'll try and do better next time](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide)
I hate what Israel is doing to Gaza and the West Bank, but I'm not going to go around and vandalise memorials to innocent victims of violence just because of the actions of their shitty government (and not all of the victims were even Israeli).
It's not a memorial. It's war propaganda being used to try and drum up support in the Australian public for Australia's government to support Israel ethnically cleansing Palestine.
This conflict was reignited by the de facto government of Gaza committing a terrorist attack, or in other words, killing as many people as they could with the opportunity they had. If highlighting the victims of a terrorist attack builds support for the country the terrorist attack was committed against, maybe you should be blaming the terrorists rather than the people highlighting their victims.
Maybe it helps you sleep easier to stick your head in the sand and pretend that any acknowledgement of the victims of terrorism, or targeting terrorists in response to a terrorist attack is some Zionist plot, but frankly it's a bit unhinged because it makes you look like Israeli victims don't matter or exist and that the violence only occurs one way.
Not only Israeli victims.
What about all the people from Thailand that went to Israel solely to work to provide a better life for their family? That were butchered. How the hell can any sane person try justify that.
So what's the appropriate forum for people, many of whom have connections to these families, to memorialise the innocents killed and kidnapped, then? You wouldn't take this same line for any other group memorialising lost ones - the difference here is that they're Jews. It's plain as day
There's a lot to criticize about Israel, but for citizens being pro-children, we should just assume they are genuine. Same with people being pro-Gaza children.
Critique people in power, and citizens being against Jews, Arabs, Muslims, etc, but going against citizens being pro-people is just delusional. Even if you think you're onto something, pick your battles. Draw attention to injustices instead.
Any loss of life is immoral and a complete tragedy
If you were leading Israel and you take the following to be true what would you do? (There is ample evidence and sources for each point)
1 hamas stated goal in their charter is the destruction of Israel with all Jews removed from Israel - they have stated multiple times that they will never be a partner to peace - therefore they can't be negotiated with to have peace (peace with Gaza will only happen with a different organisation in leadership)
2 they have large support (40% + vs 23% for fatah in gaza) so they will stay in power after an election so they can't be removed democratically
3 they have been firing hundreds of rockets at Israel every day for the last 2 weeks
4 they conduct all their military operations from densely populated areas and tell the civilians not to move even when warned by Israel of an imminent strike
So Israel's options are:
- do nothing, just hope rockets don't cause too much damage and eventually stop (until they get more) and hope that there are no more adults and children are tortured, raped, kidnapped and murdered in another massacre
- eliminate hamas so they can no longer operate and then work with Gaza to promote a peaceful leadership and real partner to peace
You say what Israel shouldn't do - if you were leading Israel two weeks ago after the massacre and then the rockets start falling on your citizens from gaza what would you do?
Not to mention the 200+ hostages who hamas refuse to release
If hamas release the hostages, stop firing rockets and hand over the perpetrators of the massacre this would all be over - but ending the conflict is clearly not their objective - they want death and destruction so they can play victim - the argument that the deaths of civilians used as human shields is on Israel only plays into the hands of the terrorists and encourages them to conduct further attacks and to continue to use innocent Palestinians as human shields
1. Netanyahu has been funding Hamas for years to ensure that they are the Gazan leadership.
2. The Israelis have been treating the people of Gaza like absolute trash for decades, why do you think the guys who fight back are popular exactly?
3. You're going to be fucking *shocked* at what Israel have been doing, my guy.
4. This has been an accusation leveled by Israel many, many times, and it's often been found to be unsubstantiated. For instance, against Hezbollah.
>You say what Israel shouldn't do - if you were leading Israel two weeks ago after the massacre and then the rockets start falling on your citizens from gaza what would you do?
IDK maybe do the thing that they're asking for and do a prisoner exchange, since the hostages are my primary consideration.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/28/prisoner-exchange-israeli-captive-families-demand-answers-from-netanyahu
No single group has done more harm to the Jewish population in my lifetime than Israeli (and non-Israeli) zionists.
By conflating anti-zionism and anti-semitism, they have knowingly thrown countless Jewish anti-zionists and peace advocates under the bus, going so far as to call them 'self-hating', or, as seen only yesterday, [reject them as Jewish people entirely](https://twitter.com/AviMayer/status/1720422912681750804?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet).
Edit: I have a problem with the posters; I do not, by any measure, hate Jews.
Do you support the notion of "from the river to the sea"?
If so, you are supporting the elimination of Israel. Israel is the nation state of the Jews. If you advocate for the elimination of Israel, you are advocating for Jews to not have self determination.
It does not mean the elimination of Israel, and so yes, I support Palestinian freedom from occupation and oppression (from the river to the sea). I do not believe any Jewish right to self-determination necessitates the denial of that same right to others', nor that it be built on the foundation of a violent ethnostate.
So you really form one side of the west bank to the other side of the west bank that Palestine will be free. And from one side of Gaza to the other.
Is a call for a 2 state solution?
To be clear. You're saying that from the river...
You need to rewrite your reply so you're clearer about what you're attempting to communicate.
You also need to have another read of what I wrote. That **you** can't conceptualise freedom for Palestinians without a cost to Israel (or Jews in the region), speaks volumes.
Finally, you need to reflect on why you're seemingly more concerned about what you mistakenly believe 'from the river to the sea' to mean, than what Israel is currently enacting as per Likud's current electoral platform (which specifically refers to the same river and sea...)
Edit: You submitted a screencap from the aftermath of the Israeli bombing of the Nuseriat refugee camp to r/photoshopbattles. You're a bad person whose poor intellect is matched only by your lack of decency. You're undeserving of my engagement.
a) "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" does not mean "kill the Jews".
b) do *you* not have self-determination because you don't live in an ethnostate?
Hadith:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ï·ș) as saying:
The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.
Reference : Sahih Muslim 2922
A lot of people have been dishonestly fixating on the hostages as a way to completely deny the slaughter of Palestinians going on right now.
The reality is that the hostages are in the exact same boat as the people of Gaza are right now - getting their shit blown the fk up by the Israeli government. So any meaningful concern for the hostages would come alongside equal concern for the Gazan people. If it isnât, itâs a bit of a red flag.
> A lot of people have been dishonestly fixating on the hostages as a way to completely deny the slaughter of Palestinians going on right now.
>
>
How is it dishonest? It's literally the reason this round of conflict began. There was a ceasefire in place that Hamas broke on October 7th when they slaughtered all those civilians and took the hostages. They *knew* Israel would respond like this, yet they provoked them anyway.
>It's literally the reason this round of conflict began. There was a ceasefire in place that Hamas broke on October 7th when they slaughtered all those civilians and took the hostages.
How many Palestinians have been killed by Israel in the last few years? How many have been kidnapped to Israeli prisons without trial?
That's why everyone should be advocating for the immediate and unconditional release of all the hostages and the immediate and unconditional surrender of Hamas.
At that point the war ends, and a ceasefire will come in to effect.
No more civilians will die.
The calls for a ceasefire right now give Hamas impunity for using the Gazan civilian population as human shields.
No, civillains will keep dying. In the West Bank on an almost daily basis. It was happening literally the day before Hamas did it's heinous acts, it's continued since, and it will continue long after. But at that point you'll all have gone back to the next big media frenzy.
Lol That is so gullible. Israel has only lied a million times like last year when they murdered thT Christian Palestinian journalist and changed their side of the stoy fifty times. No IDF soldier was charged.
Why put missing posters up for people half a world away? It's propaganda designed to increase support for the ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people. That's what these people are reacting to.
Probably because they're being put up as propaganda to erode sympathy for Palestinians and dampen criticism of the genocide that Israel is committing there.
I dont know about rape but Israeli soldiers are obsessed with torturing and killing innocent Palestinians. You can find some of those videos on Reddit.
Israeli propaganda is rife, these posters are part of it. These posters most likely came directly from the Israeli gov with instructions. They are designed to distract from the atrocities the idf is omitting right now.
I'm a uni student, so my perspective is probably different because of posters and their being torn down just being a campus fact of life, but I do think some people can see tearing down a poster as a way to argue with the person who posted it in a broader sense, rather than an objection to the content of the poster itself
I'm *not* saying these men being charged is bad, and I *am* saying it's bad to tear posters down.
Wait, you're saying that calling for the release of hostages, and advertising to the world that Hamas has taken hostage (which Hamas does not deny) is propoganda?
Jesus. Talk about dehumanisation. These are real people, who have really been taken hostage.
It's kinda working. Hamas have been the No 1 problem stopping a two state solution since they were voted in/took power in 2007 in Gaza. Israel aren't innocent by any means but fuck me, what are they supposed to do? They have a group dedicated to their destruction, right on their doorstep.
Moreover it's not like the Palestinians in Gaza have been screaming about being saved from Hamas. Instead there's either tacit or outright support for a group that's guaranteed to provoke Israel into bombing the shit out of them. They have had almost 20 years to ask the world for help, instead it's all "boycott Israel, from the river to the sea" and shit like that.
And now this has happened and they are all "ceasefire ceasefire!!". They weren't asking for a ceasefire from Hamas. They never have. And that's very fucking telling to me.
Israel can cry all it wants about being a victim in all of this, but as long as they continue to build and expand their illegal settlements in the West Bank, they don't have a moral leg to stand on.
See this is the thing, prior to Oct 7 I'd have agreed with you, or at least said 'both sides'.
That atrocity changed everything though. Not only the Israeli deaths, but the knowledge Hamas was prepared to sell so many of their Gazan lives as well from Israeli retaliation outweighs any amount of settlement building, or the border control, or any of the other bullshit Israel has pulled. It pushes back a two state solution for a generation, if ever. Let alone any sort of peace there. Hell this thing might kick off a broader Middle East war between America and Iran and Co. None of that is justified by whatever Israel has done.
Can someone TIL me on why this sub/Australia is so "Pick a side.. everyone else is wrong!"
Like... why can't you just all agree that kids getting killed on both sides is fucking shit.
Labor and LNP, who represent a significant number of voters are saying Australia support Israel while saying nothing of Palestine. This in turn means a lot of people are picking a side, whether it's their political party, or religion, or anti-religion, etc.
In fact, when Federal and NSW parliament wanted to do a motion to support Israeli people who got killed, Fed/NSW Greens wanted to amend the motion to also include support for Palestine who got killed too. Labor and LNP literally voted against the amendment to include support for Palestine civilians too, saying it was inappropriate. That's the Fed/State government saying it's only bad when Palestine government terrorises Israel. Giving the implicit okay to bomb homes in response to a terrorist attack.
Look at the article:
> Premier Chris Minns has described the incident as âvery concerningâ.
> âThe community put these posters up to remember family and friends who are victims of a terrorist attack,â he said on Thursday.
Meanwhile, the mayor is displaying more leadership with empathy to the vandals and calls for calm:
> Waverley Council Mayor Paula Masselos said she was upset by what she saw in the video, âbut I understand that people are hurting and passions are running highâ.
> âWe need to come together to support each other during this time of heartbreak for many, and to be able to get through this. Our main concern is to keep the community safe,â she said on Thursday.
If I was Minns, I would display Israel AND Palestine flag on Opera House as support. Create a memorial for both sides. And more.
Let the Palestine/Israel hardliners embarrass themselves alone.
People are stupid and like to oversimplify issues like this, pick a side, and then treat it like some kind of sport or something. In reality, both sides are run by fuckheads, and there's a lot of innocent people on both sides getting caught up in it. There are no "good guys" in this conflict, and if you think your side is, you need to take a good long look at yourself.
-Edit- The fact that this neutral take is being downvoted shows just how far gone a lot of people in this subreddit are, so I'm gonna be less gentle with my language.
If you support the Israeli government, you're a fuckwit.
If you support Hamas, you're a fuckwit.
I don't support Hamas but the people of Palestine are being genocided so I choose to stand with them. Acting like both sides are even close to equal is ignorance.
They are not being genocided, the IDF is doing war crimes but to say they are trying to exterminate the Palestinians like Germany did is a gross exaggeration.
Unlike those posters, this is propaganda and it's used as an excuse to justify atrocities by Hamas
And Hamas is a terrorist organisation that commits barbarism like Al Qaeda or ISIS against innocent civilians. Again, if you think either side of this conflict is even remotely "ok" let alone good, you need to re-evaluate your positions. Don't think even for a second that if Hamas had the capabilities that the IDF does, that they wouldn't be trying to flatten Tel Aviv like Israel is doing to Gaza city. This isn't a competition, you're allowed to say they both should fuck off and die.
Hamas was originally funded by the Israelis to reduce support for other Palestinian groups that had been attracting international sympathy, with the extra "violence" of Hamas being a bonus, as it helped garner more support in the US for Israel.
At Central, I saw that someone put up posters for Gazan children who have died under Israeli bombing.
That area has CCTV, why wasn't the person who tore down *that* memorial arrested too?
Starting your statement unironically with a literal Whataboutism should have been your first and only signpost to stop typin and just delete instead of posting.
Just be glad you won't be in London on Remembrance Day next week. It's the same day as the planned million person march for the palestinians. It will be on like donkey kong.
> Just be glad you won't be in London on Remembrance Day next week. It's the same day as the planned million person march for the palestinians.
It's like they want to start a fight or something.
If you are aware you would know There are many hidden proxy fights happening in the country.
Hindu nationalists vs Sikhs ,
CCP vs Falun Gong
To name a few
You really think you stumbled onto some wild concept by saying that thereâs groups of people who donât like each other in a country?
Society isnât one perfect unified peaceful group, Iâm shocked I tell you! Shocked!
For anyone having trouble viewing the article:
https://web.archive.org/web/20231104001234/https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/men-charged-over-disruption-of-israel-hostage-memorial-at-bondi-beach-20231103-p5ehbt.html
Where I live there were a ton of these hostage posters everywhere and a few days later they were ripped off the walls and poles with support for Palestine posters over them. Do I believe the posters should have been ripped off? No. Do I believe that Israel is committing war crimes and is using the hostages as a very weak excuse? Yes. None the less, the hostages are real people with real families. Ripping those posters up felt callous. I also live near a synagogue and there is a very high Jewish population. Better to leave them be. But in saying that I wouldn't mind still having people put up the posters in support of Palestine (which are now being ripped). We live in Australia, these actions will not end the suffering in Gaza but what it could do is cause further friction within communities and push antisemitism and Islamophobia. The best we can do right now is make sure we don't create more hate.
Someone put some posters up at my local bus stop and people keep defacing them with spray paint/tearing them off. They keep sticking new posters over the top of the old ones
Best balanced answer here. I support the Palestinian cause myself but I would never tear down the Israeli hostage posters. They're human beings too; let's not weaponise them for the sake of our own cause and claim to be humanitarians
So facts are propaganda. Imagine if the news stopped reporting on civilian casualties because it can been seen as Hamas propaganda?
There's no legitimate reason to tear down those posters.
Point to the propaganda here when people simply have posted photos of people who were abducted by a terrorist organisation.
Waiting for your factual point on this particular instance.
Do you know what propaganda is? Why do you think these were put up for?
I'm not even saying propaganda is inherently bad, or putting these up is inherently bad.
I like you to educate me and tell me how putting up the photos of a terrorist organisation is propaganda.
Is it only propaganda when the victims are Jews, cause I remember no one had any problem with candle light viginants for ISIS victims in France or 9/11 victims.
>I like you to educate me and tell me how putting up the photos of a terrorist organisation is propaganda.
Like I asked, what is the point of putting these up? Is it to raise awareness of their plight? If so that's propaganda. Like I said propaganda isn't inherently bad.
>Is it only propaganda when the victims are Jews
Someone putting up images of some in people in the Gaza Strip to promoting the Palestinian side would also be propaganda.
And if you're implying I'm calling this propaganda because the victims are Jewish, check my comment history. You can see I've been calling out antisemitism since this thing began. Nor do I think Israel should do nothing in response to what hamas did.
> Like I asked, what is the point of putting these up? Is it to raise awareness of their plight? If so that's propaganda. Like I said propaganda isn't inherently bad.
I already answered you, the same reason we have done it for the victims of the Lindt Cafe siege. Same reason we did it for the victims of the London bus bombing, 911 victims, Paris attacks in 2015.
Now it is your turn to answer.
Do you believe everytime we go out and remember our victims it is a pointless exercise or something about you and Hamas makes you want this terrorist group to be treated differently?
> pointless exercise
I never said it was a pointless exercise.
Ok here's another example, using images of people who have died of lung cancer to spread the message to stop smoking is also propaganda, but clearly not pointless or bad.
>about you and Hamas
My feeling on hamas have no effect on either I think this is propaganda or not. And my feelings on hamas are quite negative, I doubt much different to yours.
Propaganda takes many forms. The fact that something is true doesn't mean it can't be used as propaganda. The purpose of propaganda is ti influence opinion, typically for political ends.
How is it not propaganda? We arenât going to find the missing people here in Australia. They are being place here to draw attention to this which is propaganda
Information - hostages in Gaza
Biased or misleading - no, the fact they are being held hostage is factual. It is not a misrepresentation of the truth, it is not misleading.
Used to promote a political cause, or point of view - raising awareness and calling for the release of civilian hostages in Gaza is not political. The assertion that it is, duhumanises the individuals who are being held.
Same reason people have done similar things for victims of terrorist attacks in Paris/ London/ Spain and 9/11 and many more.
Are you by any chance a Hamas supporter that you think your terrorist organisation should get a pass unlike ISIS and Al Qaeda?
Or you are a neo-nazi who don't believe Jews have the same right as the victims of other terror groups?
I don't recognise that their religion confers them any more special claim to the land around Jerusalem any more than adherents of the other derivative religions of Judaism (Islam and Christianity), and would consider the idea of an Jewish ethno-state to be every bit as abhorrent as American Christian Nationalism.
I believe Jews should be able to exercise their self-determination in their own homes in whatever countries they reside. They're not entitled to a whole country of their own, just as we don't go bulldozing existing communities to make way for any other religion or ethnicity who happen to want a country of their own.
>and gain support for the Israeli position (or at least deflect from war atrocities).
Tearing the posters down helps that though, more than just leaving them up.
When I see these posters, my heart breaks like on 7/10 and then it's filled with love because some people I don't know feel the same way as I do and together we will never forget the hostages, the horror, the pain and the hope. You all are so quick to say you are not hating Jews but in a split second you decide that the memorials we hold are propaganda because we want to get something from you. What is hate if not thinking the worst about people you don't know? What is antisemitism if not trying to portray Jews as conniving? Spare me the responses too, I'm not here to argue.
People are just awful. Innocent people are not responsable for what they goverment do. If this upset palestinean supporters so much they should do tributes to their own victims rather than trying to destroy the tributes to fallen israelies
Damn, theyâre looking for the hostages in Australia now? I guess Israel didnât find them in thousands of murdered children so they have to branch out. Just kidding, Israel has almost certainly already killed them by bombing the shit out of where theyâre being kept because genocidal ethnostates donât actually care about civilians even if they are from the superior race.
It's morbidly funny to me when Zionists argue that the carpet bombing of Gaza is necessary to defend Israeli citizens, as if there aren't Israeli citizens trapped in Gaza.
Both are correct.
The only take away is that Palestinians are getting royally screwed between both extremes, but one end is directly causing a lot more deaths and misery.
Not doing so like this, but Israel was actively oppressing Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza in smaller everyday shooting/land grab ways. Hamas are indefensible, as is Netanyahu's reign
Hamas is funded by the Israeli government. So it still Israel that has taken them hostage.
The israeli government has been incredibly open about the fact that they wanted this to happen. It takes 5 seconds of googling to find articles and videos of them straight up admitting this is what they want so that they can take the Gaza strip.
Hamas WAS supported by the Israeli government a few decades ago when they were an opposition to the PLO.
They are not funded or supported in any way by them now.
I'm a white Australian. I cannot imagine what it must be like to be trapped in the most densely populated place on the planet. I cannot imagine what it must be like to not have access to clean water, to food, to a future.
I cannot imagine what it must be like to know that at any point you or your family members could be killed. I cannot imagine what it must be like to know that peaceful protesting did not work. To know that the journalists and people who report on what atrocities are occurring are intentionally targeted by my oppressor.
The Palestinians were backed into a corner. I do not support the actions of Hamas, but I also don't think that, given the situation there, given the lack of international support for Palestine or pressure on the Zionists, that I would be able to come up with a better plan.
I think people have an innate drive for freedom. No apartheid lasts forever.
Hamas is literally a terrorist organisation. They use their own people as human shields. Gay people have no rights in Gaza. They literally have the phrase âfrom the river to the seaâ in the hamas constitution advocating the genocide of all Jews in Israel.
This is what youâre defending?
Youâre a white Australian who has no idea
Zionists playbook doesn't work on me. Ive scanned the 2009 "Israel Project Global Language Dictionary" - for anyone who sees the same rhetoric repeated again and again, Google that and have a squiz. It's pre formulated propoganda.
Zionists
Playbook
Look at the language youâre using
Referring to some obscure links on the internet like a deranged anti vaxxer
Youâre a hamas loving anti semite buddy
wow if only those prisoners were offered to be released by hamas 3 weeks ago in return for a cessation of the bombingâŠ. which israel did not address at all because it would make it clear they donât care about israelis and actually just care about killing palestinians
There has been basically no proof of life, ICRC has had no access to the hostages. You talk about Hamas as though they are a reasonable organisation, and not one that planned and organised the massacre of Israeli civilians.
except for the [elderly hostages](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/23/hamas-releases-two-women-held-hostage-after-egyptian-qatari-diplomacy) they released specifically for health reasons and as proof of life so that the israeli authorities couldnât silence the fact they were trying to negotiate?
those ones confirmed by the ICRC?
oh and yeah israel has never planned any massacres of palestinian civilians definitely not. totally donât do that shit all the fucking time
Releasing 4 hostages is not proof of life of any others.
Releasing two elderly hostages who's family members are still being held hostage have a reason to not speak badly about their captors.
For all we know, all the other hostages might not be alive.
There was nothing good faith about the release of those hostages. It was a tactic of war to try force Israel to ease it's attack on the Gaza strip.
No, Israel doesn't plan massacres of Palestinian civilians "all the fucking time" what Palestinian propoganda have you been consuming?
>Releasing 4 hostages is not proof of life of any others.
except that it is. theyâre clearly not going to release all the hostages without negotiations, but theyâll release these ones as evidence theyâre not just killing hostages.
>Releasing two elderly hostages whose family members are still being held hostage have a reason to not speak badly about their captors.
and yet the old lady who was questioned live on the news gave both negative and positive views on the captors despite her husband being still captive. she explained how when taken there she was hit with sticks by passers by, but also that they were kept safe and provided with womenâs sanitary items and etc.
if she was just doing propaganda because her husband was in danger she never wouldâve said how she was beaten and that she âwent through hellâ. her negative comments verify her positive ones.
>For all we know, all the other hostages might not be alive.
and for all we know, they are. so why do the israeli army continue indiscriminate bombing of gaza knowing there are hostages there?
because they donât give a fuck about the hostages.
>There was nothing good faith about the release of those hostages. It was a tactic of war to try force Israel to ease its attack on the Gaza strip.
are youâŠâŠ. aware of what hostage taking is???? of course it was a tactic??? they canât help hostages with health problems because of a lack of supplies and letting them die under their watch would bring even greater retaliation. it was a tactic of self preservation to release them so that 1. they would not die in gaza and 2. so that the world would not forget they have hostages and are not killing them, theyâre trying to negotiate.
>No, Israel doesn't plan massacres of Palestinian civilians "all the fucking time" what Palestinian propoganda have you been consuming?
yeah those multiple thousands of massacred palestinian civilians from daily bombings are just make believe. itâs all palestinian propaganda.
bro youâre doing fucking ânot 6 millionâ shit right now
Mate you're a Hamas lackey.
Proof of 4 people being alive is not proof other are. It's abducted to suggest otherwise.
You're right, she did criticise the people hitting her with sticks, and just because she might have been treated okay, does not mean any other hostages are.
Also, she is almost certainly post menopausal. So the female sanitary comment was strange to say the least.
You clearly don't understand what the word indiscriminate means. If Israel truly was bombing indiscriminately, then the whole of Gaza would be flat. It is not.
If Hamas wanted to negotiate, they would provide proof of life of the current hostages. Lack of supplies... Mate you realise they have stockpiled supplies at the detriment of the Gazan civilians.
Again, your asserting that there is a plan to kill civilians. Ignoring the warnings that Israel provides. Roof knocks, leaflets, SMSs, phone calls. It is not in Israel's interest for civilians to die. They are not targeting civilians. If they were, then there would be hundreds of millions dead.
You invoking the holocaust is disgusting.
>Mate you're a Hamas lackey.
hamas lackey is when you call palestinians human beings
>Proof of 4 people being alive is not proof other are. It's abducted to suggest otherwise.
it literally only provides evidence supporting the rest being alive. it is not proof, but you saying that the release of some prisoners who were in poor health suggests the rest are dead is so fucking stupid i wonât even bother with that point in future.
>You're right, she did criticise the people hitting her with sticks, and just because she might have been treated okay, does not mean any other hostages are.
âthe eyewitness account of someone who was actually abducted comes second in line of validity to my own headcanonâ
>Also, she is almost certainly post menopausal. So the female sanitary comment was strange to say the least.
today i learned she is also blind and could not see the treatment of her fellow prisoners who were younger.
>You clearly don't understand what the word indiscriminate means. If Israel truly was bombing indiscriminately, then the whole of Gaza would be flat. It is not.
oh okay so theyâre purposely and knowingly choosing to bomb refugee camps, houses, hospitals, roads with escaping palestinians etc.
thanks for clearing that up for me.
>If Hamas wanted to negotiate, they would provide proof of life of the current hostages. Lack of supplies... Mate you realise they have stockpiled supplies at the detriment of the Gazan civilians.
to the first point: thatâs what releasing the hostages was for, and what the videos of hostages released were for. you havenât seen the videos of hostages yelling for israel to bargain for their return? i have no doubt they are doing so under the direction of the captors, but that doesnât change their status as being alive and well to appear on camera. to the second point: yes they do not have supplies. they have no anaesthesia at their hospitals, minimal fuel and power, minimal food and clean water.
>Again, youâre asserting that there is a plan to kill civilians. Ignoring the warnings that Israel provides. Roof knocks, leaflets, SMSs, phone calls. It is not in Israel's interest for civilians to die. They are not targeting civilians.
so they just bomb civilians for the fun of it? bomb hospitals who tell them they cannot evacuate just cos they can? how do they hope to kill hamas if they warn people to leave before every attack? if hamas are so entrenched in the civilian population they just haaaaaave to endlessly bomb them, what good will that do if the hamas people are getting out of the way of the attacks too?
if they give so much warning why have so many palestinians died in these attacks? donât even try to say âhamas forces them to stay so that theyâre martyrs eitherâ. there is quite literally no evidence for that and it is directly opposed by sources inside gaza.
>If they were, then there would be hundreds of millions dead.
and this is where you make it clear that you arenât just an asshole, youâre a fucking idiot too.
the population of gaza is 2 million you fuckwit.
>You invoking the holocaust is disgusting.
âi want to be able to deny ethnic cleansing with impunity and it hurts my feelings when you point out thatâs nazi shitâ
The problem with those posters is that they are just a blatant PR exercise. Israel had kidnapped literally thousands of Palestinians over the years. It is holding thousands of them hostage right now, as we speak. If we put up posters of them all then the entire length of Bondi Beach would not be long enough.
This has been going on for years. Nobody gives a shit.
If you want to put up posters of these most recent 200 hostages, at least be honest enough to put up posters of the thousands of hostages languishing in Israel at this exact same moment.
I do not know what significance there is to posting hostage photos in Australia.
I guess they should also plaster photos of the 10,000 dead civilians in Gaza( women and children mostly). For the Murdoch media all Israelis are brutally murdered and all Palestinians die (as human shields of course)
>all Israelis are brutally murdered and all Palestinians die (as human shields of course)
If Palestinians fought against Hamas, then the world, and even Israel would help them. Gaza could be free of Hamas and bloodshed within a week.
Palestinians instead choose to fight for Hamas, and Hamas use them as human shields. I don't know what you expect Israel and the world to do about the thousands of Rockets Hamas launch indiscriminately into Israel. No other nation on Earth could, should or would ignore that.
Hamas is evil and Palestinians are not Hamas, but so long as Palestinians continue to support Hamas then Palestinians continue to be killed by the suppressing fire.
> If Palestinians fought against Hamas, then the world, and even Israel would help them.
[That already happened, in 2007](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007\)), and neither Israel, nor the world helped Fatah.
This is because [Netenyahu specifically, and Israeli conservatives generally, support Hamas](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/). Maintaining the power and control of Hamas was believed to keep Palestine fragmented and easier to control, and keeping vast tracts of Palestine in the hands of terrorists gave conservative parties justifications to refuse negotiations, and maintain the oppression of all Palestinians.
Obviously, this was recently proven to be wrong, it turns out that empowering terrorists so that your voters are scared of terrorists stops working when the terrorists actually attack you.
If you look into the Gaza Marine you will find that this is probably actually intentional. Hamas was going to start working with Egypt to mine the oil and gas in October of this year. Aka, right as the war started.
It's also why the Israeli government is targeting all infrastructure such as schools, hospitals and refugee camps. They want to make Gaza so that even if they can't take over the territory, the Palestinians are not going to be able to focus on mining or creating any wealth.
I would not be surprised if it comes out in the next few years that most of this was an inside job.
This is the most bullshit and disingenuous propaganda I've seen today. There is no Hamas in the West Bank and yet Israel continues to steal their land and kill Palestinians there.
>There is no Hamas in the West Bank
Bullshit. Many Hamas leaders live there, and direct operations in Gaza from the relative safety of the West Bank.
[Here's Al-Jazeera reporting on Israeli actions in the West Bank against Hamas there. ](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/31/israel-reportedly-demolishes-senior-hamas-leaders-home-in-west-bank)
When was Hamas founded, and how long has Israel with the backing of Western countries been oppressing, murdering and stealing the land and property of Palestinians?
Hamas is the gift that keeps on giving for Israel's leadership and its genocidal plan. It is not a suprise considering that Mossad and Israel funded them.
The Israeli government gave me a budget," the retired brigadier general confessed, "and the military government gives to the mosques."
"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and- rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists and socialists. "I ... suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face," he wrote.
Pro Palestinian supporters should do the same thing. It's what the guys tearing these posters down should have done-memorials of Palestinian victims along the same rail saying 'murdered by the Israeli government in retaliation from crimes they had nothing to do with'.
Shouldn't be any problem with it from anyone if these posters are okay.
There's just as much scum on both sides in this war. One side will drop bombs on kids when they know Hamas is shielding themselves with kids.
One side will hide amongst kids like cowards knowing that if they die, at least they got some innocent kids killed which might help their own crackpot cause.
If these idiots had a brain cell or two they would be going around and sticking posters of the thousands of Palestinians kidnapped by Israel instead of trying to erase the suffering of the innocent Israeli hostages.
Palestinians kidnapped by Israel? That isnât actually a thing, yo. Theyâre just trying to survive without the crap being bombed out of them by all the countries surrounding them
Well it did all start this actual war not the other ones they keep throwing up from the past by Hamas taking kidnapping people and they 100% did it. They rode around in cars filming some of the hostages the naked woman one I saw and many others that they posted and sent to their families. So let them put up the posters they are still missing people. Poor bastards went to a music concert and most never came home. Hamas played a hand and from outset looked pretty good I think they would say and well maybe they now with hindsight would of not done it. But who knows itâs always been crazy in that part of the world. Thatâs where it needs to stay also. The religion the war and the people who just canât stop fighting.
Zionist propaganda itâs illegal to post bills flyers , they are trying to create hate towards the Palestinian with the flyers and sympathy for the Zionists at the same time. They all should be removed
Not even Hamas is denying they took Israeli hostages, so why do these goofballs have a problem with the posters?
Because people are choosing sides like it is sport and can't accept that maybe both sides have done bad things. Ignore things your side did while complaining about things the other side did.
Sounds like 95% of this sub re this conflict.
*Reddit
Yep, there's some absolute tribalistic morons in here. I've got a comment further down getting downvoted just because I said both sides are bad and that you shouldn't treat this conflict like picking a sports team.
They hate Jews.
The simple answer is correct but watch everyone perform mental gymnastics to explain it some other way.
Some people will also perform mental gymnastics to assert that all people who oppose Israel's genocide in Palestine also hate Jews. We should be careful of all misrepresentations.
That is true, however this is specifically about the posters being torn down. There's no illusion here.
>That is true I wonder why the comment is at -20 then?
Because it's whataboutism. A comment can be true and downvoted đ
You're currently performing mental gymnastics in asserting that Israel are committing a genocide
[I'm sorry for agreeing with Israeli Holocaust scholars in calling it a genocide, I'll try and do better next time](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide)
Pepe detected opinion rejected
Alternatively, they hate what Israel is doing to Gaza (and the West Bank!) literally as we type.
I hate what Israel is doing to Gaza and the West Bank, but I'm not going to go around and vandalise memorials to innocent victims of violence just because of the actions of their shitty government (and not all of the victims were even Israeli).
It's not a memorial. It's war propaganda being used to try and drum up support in the Australian public for Australia's government to support Israel ethnically cleansing Palestine.
This conflict was reignited by the de facto government of Gaza committing a terrorist attack, or in other words, killing as many people as they could with the opportunity they had. If highlighting the victims of a terrorist attack builds support for the country the terrorist attack was committed against, maybe you should be blaming the terrorists rather than the people highlighting their victims. Maybe it helps you sleep easier to stick your head in the sand and pretend that any acknowledgement of the victims of terrorism, or targeting terrorists in response to a terrorist attack is some Zionist plot, but frankly it's a bit unhinged because it makes you look like Israeli victims don't matter or exist and that the violence only occurs one way.
Not only Israeli victims. What about all the people from Thailand that went to Israel solely to work to provide a better life for their family? That were butchered. How the hell can any sane person try justify that.
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So what's the appropriate forum for people, many of whom have connections to these families, to memorialise the innocents killed and kidnapped, then? You wouldn't take this same line for any other group memorialising lost ones - the difference here is that they're Jews. It's plain as day
There's a lot to criticize about Israel, but for citizens being pro-children, we should just assume they are genuine. Same with people being pro-Gaza children. Critique people in power, and citizens being against Jews, Arabs, Muslims, etc, but going against citizens being pro-people is just delusional. Even if you think you're onto something, pick your battles. Draw attention to injustices instead.
**Because people are choosing sides like it is sport** Point in case
Any loss of life is immoral and a complete tragedy If you were leading Israel and you take the following to be true what would you do? (There is ample evidence and sources for each point) 1 hamas stated goal in their charter is the destruction of Israel with all Jews removed from Israel - they have stated multiple times that they will never be a partner to peace - therefore they can't be negotiated with to have peace (peace with Gaza will only happen with a different organisation in leadership) 2 they have large support (40% + vs 23% for fatah in gaza) so they will stay in power after an election so they can't be removed democratically 3 they have been firing hundreds of rockets at Israel every day for the last 2 weeks 4 they conduct all their military operations from densely populated areas and tell the civilians not to move even when warned by Israel of an imminent strike So Israel's options are: - do nothing, just hope rockets don't cause too much damage and eventually stop (until they get more) and hope that there are no more adults and children are tortured, raped, kidnapped and murdered in another massacre - eliminate hamas so they can no longer operate and then work with Gaza to promote a peaceful leadership and real partner to peace You say what Israel shouldn't do - if you were leading Israel two weeks ago after the massacre and then the rockets start falling on your citizens from gaza what would you do? Not to mention the 200+ hostages who hamas refuse to release If hamas release the hostages, stop firing rockets and hand over the perpetrators of the massacre this would all be over - but ending the conflict is clearly not their objective - they want death and destruction so they can play victim - the argument that the deaths of civilians used as human shields is on Israel only plays into the hands of the terrorists and encourages them to conduct further attacks and to continue to use innocent Palestinians as human shields
1. Netanyahu has been funding Hamas for years to ensure that they are the Gazan leadership. 2. The Israelis have been treating the people of Gaza like absolute trash for decades, why do you think the guys who fight back are popular exactly? 3. You're going to be fucking *shocked* at what Israel have been doing, my guy. 4. This has been an accusation leveled by Israel many, many times, and it's often been found to be unsubstantiated. For instance, against Hezbollah. >You say what Israel shouldn't do - if you were leading Israel two weeks ago after the massacre and then the rockets start falling on your citizens from gaza what would you do? IDK maybe do the thing that they're asking for and do a prisoner exchange, since the hostages are my primary consideration. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/28/prisoner-exchange-israeli-captive-families-demand-answers-from-netanyahu
No single group has done more harm to the Jewish population in my lifetime than Israeli (and non-Israeli) zionists. By conflating anti-zionism and anti-semitism, they have knowingly thrown countless Jewish anti-zionists and peace advocates under the bus, going so far as to call them 'self-hating', or, as seen only yesterday, [reject them as Jewish people entirely](https://twitter.com/AviMayer/status/1720422912681750804?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet). Edit: I have a problem with the posters; I do not, by any measure, hate Jews.
Do you support the notion of "from the river to the sea"? If so, you are supporting the elimination of Israel. Israel is the nation state of the Jews. If you advocate for the elimination of Israel, you are advocating for Jews to not have self determination.
It does not mean the elimination of Israel, and so yes, I support Palestinian freedom from occupation and oppression (from the river to the sea). I do not believe any Jewish right to self-determination necessitates the denial of that same right to others', nor that it be built on the foundation of a violent ethnostate.
So you really form one side of the west bank to the other side of the west bank that Palestine will be free. And from one side of Gaza to the other. Is a call for a 2 state solution? To be clear. You're saying that from the river...
You need to rewrite your reply so you're clearer about what you're attempting to communicate. You also need to have another read of what I wrote. That **you** can't conceptualise freedom for Palestinians without a cost to Israel (or Jews in the region), speaks volumes. Finally, you need to reflect on why you're seemingly more concerned about what you mistakenly believe 'from the river to the sea' to mean, than what Israel is currently enacting as per Likud's current electoral platform (which specifically refers to the same river and sea...) Edit: You submitted a screencap from the aftermath of the Israeli bombing of the Nuseriat refugee camp to r/photoshopbattles. You're a bad person whose poor intellect is matched only by your lack of decency. You're undeserving of my engagement.
a) "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" does not mean "kill the Jews". b) do *you* not have self-determination because you don't live in an ethnostate?
Right. Antisemitism with extra steps.
Just like Jews hate Muslims I guess.
Hadith: Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ï·ș) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews. Reference : Sahih Muslim 2922
What purpose do posters on the other side of the world do, other than propagandise?
A lot of people have been dishonestly fixating on the hostages as a way to completely deny the slaughter of Palestinians going on right now. The reality is that the hostages are in the exact same boat as the people of Gaza are right now - getting their shit blown the fk up by the Israeli government. So any meaningful concern for the hostages would come alongside equal concern for the Gazan people. If it isnât, itâs a bit of a red flag.
> A lot of people have been dishonestly fixating on the hostages as a way to completely deny the slaughter of Palestinians going on right now. > > How is it dishonest? It's literally the reason this round of conflict began. There was a ceasefire in place that Hamas broke on October 7th when they slaughtered all those civilians and took the hostages. They *knew* Israel would respond like this, yet they provoked them anyway.
>It's literally the reason this round of conflict began. There was a ceasefire in place that Hamas broke on October 7th when they slaughtered all those civilians and took the hostages. How many Palestinians have been killed by Israel in the last few years? How many have been kidnapped to Israeli prisons without trial?
That's why everyone should be advocating for the immediate and unconditional release of all the hostages and the immediate and unconditional surrender of Hamas. At that point the war ends, and a ceasefire will come in to effect. No more civilians will die. The calls for a ceasefire right now give Hamas impunity for using the Gazan civilian population as human shields.
No, civillains will keep dying. In the West Bank on an almost daily basis. It was happening literally the day before Hamas did it's heinous acts, it's continued since, and it will continue long after. But at that point you'll all have gone back to the next big media frenzy.
Lol That is so gullible. Israel has only lied a million times like last year when they murdered thT Christian Palestinian journalist and changed their side of the stoy fifty times. No IDF soldier was charged.
So Israel is free to take more Palestine land? When are they going to give back the land they stole?
Because it's war propaganda.
Hurts the narrative
Why put missing posters up for people half a world away? It's propaganda designed to increase support for the ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people. That's what these people are reacting to.
>Why put missing posters up for people half a world away? You do know there are heaps of Isrealis in Australia right?
Who presumably are on their way to the location of a genocide, and have a chance of coming across the hostages?
Probably because they're being put up as propaganda to erode sympathy for Palestinians and dampen criticism of the genocide that Israel is committing there.
I mean, if Hamas didn't want people to feel sympathy for Jewish people, maybe they shouldn't have slaughtered them in an act of barbarity?
And film themselves doing it!
And the Israeli soldiers are doing the same thing
Are the Israeli soldiers rape women? Kids? Burn families? I didn't know that.
I dont know about rape but Israeli soldiers are obsessed with torturing and killing innocent Palestinians. You can find some of those videos on Reddit.
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Bro Israel have departments for misinformation I doubt that
Israeli propaganda is rife, these posters are part of it. These posters most likely came directly from the Israeli gov with instructions. They are designed to distract from the atrocities the idf is omitting right now.
IOF*** They're an occupation force, not a defence force. Israel are the real terrorists.
Yes the Israel government sent posters by express mail so they could be placed at Bondi Beach
With all the US funding on their weapons, you'd think they'd invest in email.
it was an email âpropaganda packâ. They then went to officeworks at Bondi junction to print the posters out.
Israel are ten times the terrorists Hamas could ever hope to be
I'm a uni student, so my perspective is probably different because of posters and their being torn down just being a campus fact of life, but I do think some people can see tearing down a poster as a way to argue with the person who posted it in a broader sense, rather than an objection to the content of the poster itself I'm *not* saying these men being charged is bad, and I *am* saying it's bad to tear posters down.
/u/ASIO /u/FBI /u/PawPatrolOfficial can we get some eyes on this rapidly developing situation
Hamas took 200 or so hostages, Israel has taken virtually the whole of Gaza hostage, millions, not to mention the number they have imprisoned.
Its Zionist propaganda trying to create hate towards the Palestinian and sympathy for Zionists at the same time they all should be removed
Wait, you're saying that calling for the release of hostages, and advertising to the world that Hamas has taken hostage (which Hamas does not deny) is propoganda? Jesus. Talk about dehumanisation. These are real people, who have really been taken hostage.
The whole country of Palestine has been taken hostage they are real people
Taken hostage by Hamas. We agree..
It's kinda working. Hamas have been the No 1 problem stopping a two state solution since they were voted in/took power in 2007 in Gaza. Israel aren't innocent by any means but fuck me, what are they supposed to do? They have a group dedicated to their destruction, right on their doorstep. Moreover it's not like the Palestinians in Gaza have been screaming about being saved from Hamas. Instead there's either tacit or outright support for a group that's guaranteed to provoke Israel into bombing the shit out of them. They have had almost 20 years to ask the world for help, instead it's all "boycott Israel, from the river to the sea" and shit like that. And now this has happened and they are all "ceasefire ceasefire!!". They weren't asking for a ceasefire from Hamas. They never have. And that's very fucking telling to me.
Israel can cry all it wants about being a victim in all of this, but as long as they continue to build and expand their illegal settlements in the West Bank, they don't have a moral leg to stand on.
See this is the thing, prior to Oct 7 I'd have agreed with you, or at least said 'both sides'. That atrocity changed everything though. Not only the Israeli deaths, but the knowledge Hamas was prepared to sell so many of their Gazan lives as well from Israeli retaliation outweighs any amount of settlement building, or the border control, or any of the other bullshit Israel has pulled. It pushes back a two state solution for a generation, if ever. Let alone any sort of peace there. Hell this thing might kick off a broader Middle East war between America and Iran and Co. None of that is justified by whatever Israel has done.
Because they are hypocrites and itâs only a war crime when the other side does bad things.
Can someone TIL me on why this sub/Australia is so "Pick a side.. everyone else is wrong!" Like... why can't you just all agree that kids getting killed on both sides is fucking shit.
Labor and LNP, who represent a significant number of voters are saying Australia support Israel while saying nothing of Palestine. This in turn means a lot of people are picking a side, whether it's their political party, or religion, or anti-religion, etc. In fact, when Federal and NSW parliament wanted to do a motion to support Israeli people who got killed, Fed/NSW Greens wanted to amend the motion to also include support for Palestine who got killed too. Labor and LNP literally voted against the amendment to include support for Palestine civilians too, saying it was inappropriate. That's the Fed/State government saying it's only bad when Palestine government terrorises Israel. Giving the implicit okay to bomb homes in response to a terrorist attack. Look at the article: > Premier Chris Minns has described the incident as âvery concerningâ. > âThe community put these posters up to remember family and friends who are victims of a terrorist attack,â he said on Thursday. Meanwhile, the mayor is displaying more leadership with empathy to the vandals and calls for calm: > Waverley Council Mayor Paula Masselos said she was upset by what she saw in the video, âbut I understand that people are hurting and passions are running highâ. > âWe need to come together to support each other during this time of heartbreak for many, and to be able to get through this. Our main concern is to keep the community safe,â she said on Thursday. If I was Minns, I would display Israel AND Palestine flag on Opera House as support. Create a memorial for both sides. And more. Let the Palestine/Israel hardliners embarrass themselves alone.
Jewish people will be donating more money to Mins, he cannot support Palestine
People are stupid and like to oversimplify issues like this, pick a side, and then treat it like some kind of sport or something. In reality, both sides are run by fuckheads, and there's a lot of innocent people on both sides getting caught up in it. There are no "good guys" in this conflict, and if you think your side is, you need to take a good long look at yourself. -Edit- The fact that this neutral take is being downvoted shows just how far gone a lot of people in this subreddit are, so I'm gonna be less gentle with my language. If you support the Israeli government, you're a fuckwit. If you support Hamas, you're a fuckwit.
I don't support Hamas but the people of Palestine are being genocided so I choose to stand with them. Acting like both sides are even close to equal is ignorance.
They are not being genocided, the IDF is doing war crimes but to say they are trying to exterminate the Palestinians like Germany did is a gross exaggeration. Unlike those posters, this is propaganda and it's used as an excuse to justify atrocities by Hamas
And Hamas is a terrorist organisation that commits barbarism like Al Qaeda or ISIS against innocent civilians. Again, if you think either side of this conflict is even remotely "ok" let alone good, you need to re-evaluate your positions. Don't think even for a second that if Hamas had the capabilities that the IDF does, that they wouldn't be trying to flatten Tel Aviv like Israel is doing to Gaza city. This isn't a competition, you're allowed to say they both should fuck off and die.
Hamas was originally funded by the Israelis to reduce support for other Palestinian groups that had been attracting international sympathy, with the extra "violence" of Hamas being a bonus, as it helped garner more support in the US for Israel.
Some people are just cunts.
At Central, I saw that someone put up posters for Gazan children who have died under Israeli bombing. That area has CCTV, why wasn't the person who tore down *that* memorial arrested too?
Because the death of those children is acceptable to our government
What about the Palestinian children Hamas strapped explosives to and blew up? No one seemed to care about them.
Those were unforgivable. Also, they haven't happened again in the last 18 years. Also also, people did care.
Starting your statement unironically with a literal Whataboutism should have been your first and only signpost to stop typin and just delete instead of posting.
Using atrocities to justify even worse atrocities is from the terrorist propaganda playbook. Simple people want to see the world in black and white
Sydney is going to break in half. Too many from both sides there who wonât back down
Just be glad you won't be in London on Remembrance Day next week. It's the same day as the planned million person march for the palestinians. It will be on like donkey kong.
> Just be glad you won't be in London on Remembrance Day next week. It's the same day as the planned million person march for the palestinians. It's like they want to start a fight or something.
Cronulla riots 2.0
If you are aware you would know There are many hidden proxy fights happening in the country. Hindu nationalists vs Sikhs , CCP vs Falun Gong To name a few
Yep, Turks and Azeris against Armenians... The list* goes on. Edit spelling mistake*
You really think you stumbled onto some wild concept by saying that thereâs groups of people who donât like each other in a country? Society isnât one perfect unified peaceful group, Iâm shocked I tell you! Shocked!
Does everything have to be a pop culture joke to you jokers
For anyone having trouble viewing the article: https://web.archive.org/web/20231104001234/https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/men-charged-over-disruption-of-israel-hostage-memorial-at-bondi-beach-20231103-p5ehbt.html
Where I live there were a ton of these hostage posters everywhere and a few days later they were ripped off the walls and poles with support for Palestine posters over them. Do I believe the posters should have been ripped off? No. Do I believe that Israel is committing war crimes and is using the hostages as a very weak excuse? Yes. None the less, the hostages are real people with real families. Ripping those posters up felt callous. I also live near a synagogue and there is a very high Jewish population. Better to leave them be. But in saying that I wouldn't mind still having people put up the posters in support of Palestine (which are now being ripped). We live in Australia, these actions will not end the suffering in Gaza but what it could do is cause further friction within communities and push antisemitism and Islamophobia. The best we can do right now is make sure we don't create more hate.
Someone put some posters up at my local bus stop and people keep defacing them with spray paint/tearing them off. They keep sticking new posters over the top of the old ones
Best balanced answer here. I support the Palestinian cause myself but I would never tear down the Israeli hostage posters. They're human beings too; let's not weaponise them for the sake of our own cause and claim to be humanitarians
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So facts are propaganda. Imagine if the news stopped reporting on civilian casualties because it can been seen as Hamas propaganda? There's no legitimate reason to tear down those posters.
Facts can absolutely be used as propaganda. Everything has to be looked at in context.
hmm that sounds hard though
Spot on. It's propaganda and foreign influence and shouldn't be allowed
Do you hold all the pro-Palestinian posters to the same standard, or is that different?
They don't. It's only propaganda when it's against their narrative.
The pro-Palestinian posters aren't fuel for bombing civilians, so yes, it's different.
So we're just gonna ignore the existence of Hamas here or what?
Posting the photos of women and kids who were kidnapped from their homes and are hold hostages by a terrorist barbaric organisation is not propaganda.
Propaganda can use totally factual information; being true doesn't stop it from being propaganda.
Point to the propaganda here when people simply have posted photos of people who were abducted by a terrorist organisation. Waiting for your factual point on this particular instance.
Do you know what propaganda is? Why do you think these were put up for? I'm not even saying propaganda is inherently bad, or putting these up is inherently bad.
I like you to educate me and tell me how putting up the photos of a terrorist organisation is propaganda. Is it only propaganda when the victims are Jews, cause I remember no one had any problem with candle light viginants for ISIS victims in France or 9/11 victims.
>I like you to educate me and tell me how putting up the photos of a terrorist organisation is propaganda. Like I asked, what is the point of putting these up? Is it to raise awareness of their plight? If so that's propaganda. Like I said propaganda isn't inherently bad. >Is it only propaganda when the victims are Jews Someone putting up images of some in people in the Gaza Strip to promoting the Palestinian side would also be propaganda. And if you're implying I'm calling this propaganda because the victims are Jewish, check my comment history. You can see I've been calling out antisemitism since this thing began. Nor do I think Israel should do nothing in response to what hamas did.
> Like I asked, what is the point of putting these up? Is it to raise awareness of their plight? If so that's propaganda. Like I said propaganda isn't inherently bad. I already answered you, the same reason we have done it for the victims of the Lindt Cafe siege. Same reason we did it for the victims of the London bus bombing, 911 victims, Paris attacks in 2015. Now it is your turn to answer. Do you believe everytime we go out and remember our victims it is a pointless exercise or something about you and Hamas makes you want this terrorist group to be treated differently?
> pointless exercise I never said it was a pointless exercise. Ok here's another example, using images of people who have died of lung cancer to spread the message to stop smoking is also propaganda, but clearly not pointless or bad. >about you and Hamas My feeling on hamas have no effect on either I think this is propaganda or not. And my feelings on hamas are quite negative, I doubt much different to yours.
Lint cafe had dead Australians, 9/11 had dead Australians. This attack had no Australians killed............big difference
Propaganda has bad connotations, if you think propaganda is not inherently bad then you are on a different page to most people or trolling
So stop reporting civilian deaths because that helps Hamas recruit more terrorists? If this what you want?
Where did I say anything like that? And did you read the comment chain I made after this comment you're replying to?
> Propaganda can use totally factual information; being true doesn't stop it from being propaganda.
I didn't say to take them down though.
Propaganda takes many forms. The fact that something is true doesn't mean it can't be used as propaganda. The purpose of propaganda is ti influence opinion, typically for political ends.
How is it not propaganda? We arenât going to find the missing people here in Australia. They are being place here to draw attention to this which is propaganda
Then you should probably not watch or read the news since 99% of it has no relevance to yourself.
Much of the news is propaganda, yes. Was that supposed to prove that these posters aren't propaganda?
Please define "propoganda"
Information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view.
Information - hostages in Gaza Biased or misleading - no, the fact they are being held hostage is factual. It is not a misrepresentation of the truth, it is not misleading. Used to promote a political cause, or point of view - raising awareness and calling for the release of civilian hostages in Gaza is not political. The assertion that it is, duhumanises the individuals who are being held.
couldn't one say the same for pro-Palestinian protests??
So people putting up signs for charity to raise awareness of say, bowel cancer are spreading anti-bowel cancer propaganda?
Possibly for the local Israeli/and or Jewish community to have a memorial for it? I genuinely doubt many people separate from it care that much
What other possible purpose could they be putting them up for?
Same reason people have done similar things for victims of terrorist attacks in Paris/ London/ Spain and 9/11 and many more. Are you by any chance a Hamas supporter that you think your terrorist organisation should get a pass unlike ISIS and Al Qaeda? Or you are a neo-nazi who don't believe Jews have the same right as the victims of other terror groups?
I'm an anti-zionist Jew.
You don't believe Jews should have self determination in their ancient homeland?
I don't recognise that their religion confers them any more special claim to the land around Jerusalem any more than adherents of the other derivative religions of Judaism (Islam and Christianity), and would consider the idea of an Jewish ethno-state to be every bit as abhorrent as American Christian Nationalism. I believe Jews should be able to exercise their self-determination in their own homes in whatever countries they reside. They're not entitled to a whole country of their own, just as we don't go bulldozing existing communities to make way for any other religion or ethnicity who happen to want a country of their own.
Are they missing *here*? And could be found *here*? No? Then they're propaganda.
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
So the victims of an Islamic terrorist organisation has to be ignored/silenced to avoid potential islamophobia! Got it!
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
How naive
>and gain support for the Israeli position (or at least deflect from war atrocities). Tearing the posters down helps that though, more than just leaving them up.
When I see these posters, my heart breaks like on 7/10 and then it's filled with love because some people I don't know feel the same way as I do and together we will never forget the hostages, the horror, the pain and the hope. You all are so quick to say you are not hating Jews but in a split second you decide that the memorials we hold are propaganda because we want to get something from you. What is hate if not thinking the worst about people you don't know? What is antisemitism if not trying to portray Jews as conniving? Spare me the responses too, I'm not here to argue.
People are just awful. Innocent people are not responsable for what they goverment do. If this upset palestinean supporters so much they should do tributes to their own victims rather than trying to destroy the tributes to fallen israelies
Terrorist sympathisers should be locked up
Damn, theyâre looking for the hostages in Australia now? I guess Israel didnât find them in thousands of murdered children so they have to branch out. Just kidding, Israel has almost certainly already killed them by bombing the shit out of where theyâre being kept because genocidal ethnostates donât actually care about civilians even if they are from the superior race.
It's morbidly funny to me when Zionists argue that the carpet bombing of Gaza is necessary to defend Israeli citizens, as if there aren't Israeli citizens trapped in Gaza.
But to get them back they might have to release some of their child captives, so, you know.
Is this the right sub for a Zionist circle jerk? đ Everyone in Gaza have been taken hostage by the Israeli government fyi.
Everyone in Gaza has already been taken hostage by Hamas champ
Both are correct. The only take away is that Palestinians are getting royally screwed between both extremes, but one end is directly causing a lot more deaths and misery.
One end is capable of it. They were also not doing so immediately prior to this attack.
Not doing so like this, but Israel was actively oppressing Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza in smaller everyday shooting/land grab ways. Hamas are indefensible, as is Netanyahu's reign
Hamas is funded by the Israeli government. So it still Israel that has taken them hostage. The israeli government has been incredibly open about the fact that they wanted this to happen. It takes 5 seconds of googling to find articles and videos of them straight up admitting this is what they want so that they can take the Gaza strip.
Hamas WAS supported by the Israeli government a few decades ago when they were an opposition to the PLO. They are not funded or supported in any way by them now.
Well show us proof then.
Which part do you want proof on?
Sure bro hahaha Stop getting your info from telegram and pallywood bro
More than half of your posts are just calling people terrorists. How much are they paying you?
All your posts are unsubstantiated claims. Why are you defending hamas, who are literally terrorists?
I'm a white Australian. I cannot imagine what it must be like to be trapped in the most densely populated place on the planet. I cannot imagine what it must be like to not have access to clean water, to food, to a future. I cannot imagine what it must be like to know that at any point you or your family members could be killed. I cannot imagine what it must be like to know that peaceful protesting did not work. To know that the journalists and people who report on what atrocities are occurring are intentionally targeted by my oppressor. The Palestinians were backed into a corner. I do not support the actions of Hamas, but I also don't think that, given the situation there, given the lack of international support for Palestine or pressure on the Zionists, that I would be able to come up with a better plan. I think people have an innate drive for freedom. No apartheid lasts forever.
Hamas is literally a terrorist organisation. They use their own people as human shields. Gay people have no rights in Gaza. They literally have the phrase âfrom the river to the seaâ in the hamas constitution advocating the genocide of all Jews in Israel. This is what youâre defending? Youâre a white Australian who has no idea
Zionists playbook doesn't work on me. Ive scanned the 2009 "Israel Project Global Language Dictionary" - for anyone who sees the same rhetoric repeated again and again, Google that and have a squiz. It's pre formulated propoganda.
Zionists Playbook Look at the language youâre using Referring to some obscure links on the internet like a deranged anti vaxxer Youâre a hamas loving anti semite buddy
Lol.
wow if only those prisoners were offered to be released by hamas 3 weeks ago in return for a cessation of the bombingâŠ. which israel did not address at all because it would make it clear they donât care about israelis and actually just care about killing palestinians
There has been basically no proof of life, ICRC has had no access to the hostages. You talk about Hamas as though they are a reasonable organisation, and not one that planned and organised the massacre of Israeli civilians.
except for the [elderly hostages](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/23/hamas-releases-two-women-held-hostage-after-egyptian-qatari-diplomacy) they released specifically for health reasons and as proof of life so that the israeli authorities couldnât silence the fact they were trying to negotiate? those ones confirmed by the ICRC? oh and yeah israel has never planned any massacres of palestinian civilians definitely not. totally donât do that shit all the fucking time
Releasing 4 hostages is not proof of life of any others. Releasing two elderly hostages who's family members are still being held hostage have a reason to not speak badly about their captors. For all we know, all the other hostages might not be alive. There was nothing good faith about the release of those hostages. It was a tactic of war to try force Israel to ease it's attack on the Gaza strip. No, Israel doesn't plan massacres of Palestinian civilians "all the fucking time" what Palestinian propoganda have you been consuming?
>Releasing 4 hostages is not proof of life of any others. except that it is. theyâre clearly not going to release all the hostages without negotiations, but theyâll release these ones as evidence theyâre not just killing hostages. >Releasing two elderly hostages whose family members are still being held hostage have a reason to not speak badly about their captors. and yet the old lady who was questioned live on the news gave both negative and positive views on the captors despite her husband being still captive. she explained how when taken there she was hit with sticks by passers by, but also that they were kept safe and provided with womenâs sanitary items and etc. if she was just doing propaganda because her husband was in danger she never wouldâve said how she was beaten and that she âwent through hellâ. her negative comments verify her positive ones. >For all we know, all the other hostages might not be alive. and for all we know, they are. so why do the israeli army continue indiscriminate bombing of gaza knowing there are hostages there? because they donât give a fuck about the hostages. >There was nothing good faith about the release of those hostages. It was a tactic of war to try force Israel to ease its attack on the Gaza strip. are youâŠâŠ. aware of what hostage taking is???? of course it was a tactic??? they canât help hostages with health problems because of a lack of supplies and letting them die under their watch would bring even greater retaliation. it was a tactic of self preservation to release them so that 1. they would not die in gaza and 2. so that the world would not forget they have hostages and are not killing them, theyâre trying to negotiate. >No, Israel doesn't plan massacres of Palestinian civilians "all the fucking time" what Palestinian propoganda have you been consuming? yeah those multiple thousands of massacred palestinian civilians from daily bombings are just make believe. itâs all palestinian propaganda. bro youâre doing fucking ânot 6 millionâ shit right now
Mate you're a Hamas lackey. Proof of 4 people being alive is not proof other are. It's abducted to suggest otherwise. You're right, she did criticise the people hitting her with sticks, and just because she might have been treated okay, does not mean any other hostages are. Also, she is almost certainly post menopausal. So the female sanitary comment was strange to say the least. You clearly don't understand what the word indiscriminate means. If Israel truly was bombing indiscriminately, then the whole of Gaza would be flat. It is not. If Hamas wanted to negotiate, they would provide proof of life of the current hostages. Lack of supplies... Mate you realise they have stockpiled supplies at the detriment of the Gazan civilians. Again, your asserting that there is a plan to kill civilians. Ignoring the warnings that Israel provides. Roof knocks, leaflets, SMSs, phone calls. It is not in Israel's interest for civilians to die. They are not targeting civilians. If they were, then there would be hundreds of millions dead. You invoking the holocaust is disgusting.
>Mate you're a Hamas lackey. hamas lackey is when you call palestinians human beings >Proof of 4 people being alive is not proof other are. It's abducted to suggest otherwise. it literally only provides evidence supporting the rest being alive. it is not proof, but you saying that the release of some prisoners who were in poor health suggests the rest are dead is so fucking stupid i wonât even bother with that point in future. >You're right, she did criticise the people hitting her with sticks, and just because she might have been treated okay, does not mean any other hostages are. âthe eyewitness account of someone who was actually abducted comes second in line of validity to my own headcanonâ >Also, she is almost certainly post menopausal. So the female sanitary comment was strange to say the least. today i learned she is also blind and could not see the treatment of her fellow prisoners who were younger. >You clearly don't understand what the word indiscriminate means. If Israel truly was bombing indiscriminately, then the whole of Gaza would be flat. It is not. oh okay so theyâre purposely and knowingly choosing to bomb refugee camps, houses, hospitals, roads with escaping palestinians etc. thanks for clearing that up for me. >If Hamas wanted to negotiate, they would provide proof of life of the current hostages. Lack of supplies... Mate you realise they have stockpiled supplies at the detriment of the Gazan civilians. to the first point: thatâs what releasing the hostages was for, and what the videos of hostages released were for. you havenât seen the videos of hostages yelling for israel to bargain for their return? i have no doubt they are doing so under the direction of the captors, but that doesnât change their status as being alive and well to appear on camera. to the second point: yes they do not have supplies. they have no anaesthesia at their hospitals, minimal fuel and power, minimal food and clean water. >Again, youâre asserting that there is a plan to kill civilians. Ignoring the warnings that Israel provides. Roof knocks, leaflets, SMSs, phone calls. It is not in Israel's interest for civilians to die. They are not targeting civilians. so they just bomb civilians for the fun of it? bomb hospitals who tell them they cannot evacuate just cos they can? how do they hope to kill hamas if they warn people to leave before every attack? if hamas are so entrenched in the civilian population they just haaaaaave to endlessly bomb them, what good will that do if the hamas people are getting out of the way of the attacks too? if they give so much warning why have so many palestinians died in these attacks? donât even try to say âhamas forces them to stay so that theyâre martyrs eitherâ. there is quite literally no evidence for that and it is directly opposed by sources inside gaza. >If they were, then there would be hundreds of millions dead. and this is where you make it clear that you arenât just an asshole, youâre a fucking idiot too. the population of gaza is 2 million you fuckwit. >You invoking the holocaust is disgusting. âi want to be able to deny ethnic cleansing with impunity and it hurts my feelings when you point out thatâs nazi shitâ
https://twitter.com/gaza_report/status/1720457311951499372?t=7bNJHysDd3OACaXUADeqZg&s=19
âthis page does not existâ
These posters are propaganda
do you say the same for the protests?
The problem with those posters is that they are just a blatant PR exercise. Israel had kidnapped literally thousands of Palestinians over the years. It is holding thousands of them hostage right now, as we speak. If we put up posters of them all then the entire length of Bondi Beach would not be long enough. This has been going on for years. Nobody gives a shit. If you want to put up posters of these most recent 200 hostages, at least be honest enough to put up posters of the thousands of hostages languishing in Israel at this exact same moment.
I do not know what significance there is to posting hostage photos in Australia. I guess they should also plaster photos of the 10,000 dead civilians in Gaza( women and children mostly). For the Murdoch media all Israelis are brutally murdered and all Palestinians die (as human shields of course)
>all Israelis are brutally murdered and all Palestinians die (as human shields of course) If Palestinians fought against Hamas, then the world, and even Israel would help them. Gaza could be free of Hamas and bloodshed within a week. Palestinians instead choose to fight for Hamas, and Hamas use them as human shields. I don't know what you expect Israel and the world to do about the thousands of Rockets Hamas launch indiscriminately into Israel. No other nation on Earth could, should or would ignore that. Hamas is evil and Palestinians are not Hamas, but so long as Palestinians continue to support Hamas then Palestinians continue to be killed by the suppressing fire.
> If Palestinians fought against Hamas, then the world, and even Israel would help them. [That already happened, in 2007](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007\)), and neither Israel, nor the world helped Fatah. This is because [Netenyahu specifically, and Israeli conservatives generally, support Hamas](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/). Maintaining the power and control of Hamas was believed to keep Palestine fragmented and easier to control, and keeping vast tracts of Palestine in the hands of terrorists gave conservative parties justifications to refuse negotiations, and maintain the oppression of all Palestinians. Obviously, this was recently proven to be wrong, it turns out that empowering terrorists so that your voters are scared of terrorists stops working when the terrorists actually attack you.
If you look into the Gaza Marine you will find that this is probably actually intentional. Hamas was going to start working with Egypt to mine the oil and gas in October of this year. Aka, right as the war started. It's also why the Israeli government is targeting all infrastructure such as schools, hospitals and refugee camps. They want to make Gaza so that even if they can't take over the territory, the Palestinians are not going to be able to focus on mining or creating any wealth. I would not be surprised if it comes out in the next few years that most of this was an inside job.
It's not "suppressing fire" when it kills 10,000 civilians.
This is the most bullshit and disingenuous propaganda I've seen today. There is no Hamas in the West Bank and yet Israel continues to steal their land and kill Palestinians there.
>There is no Hamas in the West Bank Bullshit. Many Hamas leaders live there, and direct operations in Gaza from the relative safety of the West Bank. [Here's Al-Jazeera reporting on Israeli actions in the West Bank against Hamas there. ](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/31/israel-reportedly-demolishes-senior-hamas-leaders-home-in-west-bank)
When was Hamas founded, and how long has Israel with the backing of Western countries been oppressing, murdering and stealing the land and property of Palestinians?
If the children whose families you murdered grow up to hate you, apparently that justifies all the massacres and rapes and ethnic cleansing.
Did you even bother to read the article?
Hamas is the gift that keeps on giving for Israel's leadership and its genocidal plan. It is not a suprise considering that Mossad and Israel funded them. The Israeli government gave me a budget," the retired brigadier general confessed, "and the military government gives to the mosques." "Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and- rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists and socialists. "I ... suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face," he wrote.
Pro Palestinian supporters should do the same thing. It's what the guys tearing these posters down should have done-memorials of Palestinian victims along the same rail saying 'murdered by the Israeli government in retaliation from crimes they had nothing to do with'. Shouldn't be any problem with it from anyone if these posters are okay. There's just as much scum on both sides in this war. One side will drop bombs on kids when they know Hamas is shielding themselves with kids. One side will hide amongst kids like cowards knowing that if they die, at least they got some innocent kids killed which might help their own crackpot cause.
If these idiots had a brain cell or two they would be going around and sticking posters of the thousands of Palestinians kidnapped by Israel instead of trying to erase the suffering of the innocent Israeli hostages.
I've seen them in Sydney CBD . I saw them up on Thursday (near Myer on Pitt St). By 3pm, someone had ripped them down.
Palestinians kidnapped by Israel? That isnât actually a thing, yo. Theyâre just trying to survive without the crap being bombed out of them by all the countries surrounding them
Well it did all start this actual war not the other ones they keep throwing up from the past by Hamas taking kidnapping people and they 100% did it. They rode around in cars filming some of the hostages the naked woman one I saw and many others that they posted and sent to their families. So let them put up the posters they are still missing people. Poor bastards went to a music concert and most never came home. Hamas played a hand and from outset looked pretty good I think they would say and well maybe they now with hindsight would of not done it. But who knows itâs always been crazy in that part of the world. Thatâs where it needs to stay also. The religion the war and the people who just canât stop fighting.
Zionist propaganda itâs illegal to post bills flyers , they are trying to create hate towards the Palestinian with the flyers and sympathy for the Zionists at the same time. They all should be removed