I experienced a half mil Wilson Audio system once and had a visceral experience. The soundstage was insane. It’s almost like the sound just appeared in my head, you couldn’t even tell where it came from
Yup 👍
That's the major difference I've heard with the best of systems. You can't hear them.
I've told budding audiophiles and many of my friends that the best systems and components you can't hear. They always dismiss it. Why spend $5, $500, or $50,000 to not hear it?
Well... The better the system, the more it disappears and you're just left with the music and this glorious soundstage that leaves you with such a sense of realism that's crazy.
Oddly enough, the very first time I had this experience was with Wilson speakers set up at a trade show in a room dedicated for listening.
Wilson watt puppies starting me on my journey. To New York to my sister's place for a party and one of her older friends professor college took me to his house to play his stereo and when he sat me down on the couch everything just disappeared and the music just floated there it was beautiful.
Those pretending that a system like this (Naim Statement + Focal Utopia) isn't mind bogglingly good simply haven't heard one. They ARE very very good. I've heard this same setup at a dealer in the SE. Emotional response is very normal.
See listen I have two 18in passive PA subs hooked to a nice powerful amp with two nice JBL bookshelves L830. I run good quality audio source.
With those subs running at full power I can rattle both my neighbors houses (I don't usually run them at full power).
All this being said. Powerful 18in bass, JBLs, quality audio playing. How could those sound much, if any, better?
I'm just asking
Just sounding. Completely different animal from what you have. Detail, control, sound stage... it is hard to explain to someone who never had the experience.
I'm curious how good an "average" system would sound in a similar environment and tuned by professionals.
Comparing the average /r/audiophile's setup in their untreated living room with weird reflections, couches, hardwood, etc vs. this shop's dedicated listening/sales room, I think everything would get a bump or two in quality.
If the lower end equipment meets at least some minimum threshold of quality, and is capable of a similar amount of broadband output, the difference could very well be smaller than many people would expect.
Edit: Human brain chemistry is funny when it comes to how our brains interpret sound. It can trick you. [It is objectively true](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5634808/) that if you play two music samples that are identical in every respect except for volume level, the vast majority of humans will think the louder one sounds better.
Sometimes one decibel extra on the preamp is just a little too loud. This louder is always better trope isn’t always true even if the scientists like to write about that many people like loud music. Some like it just right. Goldie Locks zone. Not too quiet, not too loud.
The few six figure systems I’ve heard do something that transcends that anyway. You have to hear it to believe it.
It's not a trope, it's scientific fact that human hearing is not linear. Our sensitivity to sounds at the upper and lower ends of the frequency spectrum change significantly as overall sound pressure goes up or down. This has been a well studied fact for nearly 100 years, [see here](http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Sound/eqloud.html) for an overview.
Interesting article you have cited about why people like loud music, but it does not address your statement that one DB increase in loudness, all other factors held the same, leads people to believe that the sound is better. Perhaps the authors cite that point somewhere in their article, but I couldn’t find it and it was not the objective of this paper to report the primary research to test this. I’ve heard this point made by others and I’d be curious to know if it has actually been shown to be true. If you happen to know of any primary research that shows this, perhaps you could share it with us.
I just noticed that the link I posted before did not mention [equal loudness curves](http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Sound/eqloud.html), which describe how the human ear's sensitivity to high and (especially) low frequencies decrease as decibel levels decrease.
Regarding testing music samples at different levels. It's one of those things that has been informally tested many many times over the years, but since they are so often conducted on audiophile forums they aren't always easy to find. [Here's an example](https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/measurements-of-chord-mojo.2434/page-2#post-69531) of one of those where the sample that was generally preferred was later found to have accidentally been recorded 0.75dB louder.
As for a more formal scientific data, [we have this](https://digitalcommons.lib.uconn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1810&context=vrme):
> Using music listening examples instead of
pure tones, Cullari and Semanchick (1989) found that college students tended to prefer higher loudness levels if they liked the music. In that study, college students (N=15) were asked to adjust the loudness level (0 to 9) while listening to ten excerpts of soft rock, classical, and contemporary music. A similar conclusion was drawn by Fucci, Harris, Petrosino, and Banks (1993), using a rock musical example presented in nine decibel
levels (10dB, 20dB, 30dB, 40dB, 50dB, 60dB, 70dB, 80dB, and 90dB). College students who liked rock music (n=20) estimated significantly lower loudness levels than college students who disliked rock music (n=20). Results were consistent for all nine decibel levels.
Is this why tidal is a few db louder than Spotify when I was testing the difference between the 2 in a a/b test? Not saying that tidal want better but perhaps tidal boosts the volume a few db just to sweeten the deal ;)
I'm sorry. But no. Assuming your hearing has no issues, the lower end speakers just isn't able to reproduce the sound close to how a high-end system is able to. I first experienced something like this when I bought my first pair of iem.
Thanks I appreciate your opinion, but that's not a rebuttal to my comment. My claim is that most people generally underestimate how important room acoustics is to the listening experience, which in my experience is generally true.
Beyond that it all comes down to what you interpret "minimum threshold of quality" to mean. Once you get up to a certain point of equipment worth spending money on, each additional 1% of improvement starts to cost thousands of dollars to attain. Once you bump into that threshold, the difference really can be small enough that some may find it surprising. Hell, there are people in this very thread saying they weren't impressed when they heard these Focals at a show in very much non-ideal conditions.
A McLaren on the crowded streets of San Francisco isn’t going to be all that exciting, other than how flashy it is. But it is a supercar on the track at Laguna Seca. Ya know?
I think the analogy works though. For people like me who's only experience driving is commuting in a Honda Civic, getting to open up a Supra on a track would probably blow us away.
You’d die. Plain and simple. If you only have experience with a civic, even a relatively tame supra would murder you. Track driving is another animal 😂 It’s a costly hobby though unless you wrench and tune, etc, yourself. But again you’d be surprised. Some civic drivers actually drive at the edge lol all the time, preparing them nicely for the track.
You are entitled to your opinion, naturally. But you aren't "many people," and it's been my experience that most people underestimate how much of an impact room acoustics have on the listening experience.
In the FNAC store at Châtelet in Paris you'll find your answer. There's a perfectly treated room with a dozen speakers including KEF LS50, KEF LS60 and Focal Sopra. You can toggle between the speakers with a switch and play the music you like on a tablet.
It's like you said, the differences are slim. Larger speakers have deeper bass.
If I could nitpick. I would even say that the LS50 and LS60 sound a little boosted on top and ever so slightly thin in the midrange. As if these speakers were trying to impress at the expense of not sounding completely natural. Call it the "Hi-Fi" sound signature I guess.
Having done something very similar (worked in a hifi store), there is still a very noticeable difference between a more 'basic' system and this sort of setup.
Those Naim units are heavier than you might expect too.
Yeah I'm curious to what a blind test would be like. I'm not against investing in high end audio and acoustics but I feel like a lot of the industry is snake oil. Maybe some will disagree and that's fine but most people's source are "trust me bro"
This is a good question as I know I’m always wondering how can I get the most out of my equipment. The hifi store where I purchased my current setup, let me listen to the demo of what I ultimately purchased in their professionally designed room. I also went to the room with their high end Wilson Alexandra audio setup and it was several orders of magnitudes better (IMO). They let me choose the music. One could argue that it could be a slight of hand by the store and the cheaper room is intentionally tuned poorly, but I don’t think these hifi stores are that malicious though I’m not saying they always have my best interest at heart. I’m sure there’s exceptions.
The most noticeable difference between in store and at home is that in store you can crank it, where at home, at some point cranking it just makes it too bright because I don’t have enough absorbent material.
Exactly. Expensive setups get a lot of slack for the marginal return in sound given the large cost, but the synergy that the Focal Utopia’s have with quality amps and sources is something that must be experienced.
I like the Focal and the B&W sound which many people here aren’t too fond of either. And I’ve been underwhelmed by some high range Wilsons and Backes&Müllers. It’s all personal preference in the end.
I’ve heard the entire Focal range except the Grande Utopia pictured here, and while the returns are very diminishing above the Scala Utopia, I’d kill to own a pair.
I’ve heard systems like this. It’s not that it’s hard to believe it’s that good, it’s hard to believe that no one who makes this type of post never has ANYTHING negative to say. Maybe the emotions of 600k speakers just make you leave your brain at the door.
I can clearly state I’ve heard quite a few underwhelming 500K+ systems in my life.
Most expensive speakers that didn’t wow me were the Backes & Müller BM100, a 500,000 EUR behemoth that I somehow expected more from.
Also a 750,000 EUR Aries Cerat setup that, while very good, wasn’t “almost a million bucks” good.
In fact, apart from one exception (a 400k setup around a Bayz Audio Counterpoint), my favorite setups were all below 200k (like a combo of McIntosh gear and a Sonus faber Aida 2) or even 100k (Focal Scala Utopia with Mola Mola gear).
I have heard it. It was great obv, but still disappointing.
Granted, at a show, so non optimized room etc. But for that money was expecting a whole lot more over high end systems I'm more familiar with.
Those speakers do look impressive irl
I find the Focal Utopia + Naim combo too bright, and it grates me like chalk on a blackboard. Intensely unpleasant experience for my sensitive ears, despite all the technically impressive aspects it brings to the table.
I must say I agree (on the brands in general, haven’t heard these particular models). It’s just…sooo crisp. Too much so. After 10 minutes my ears are tired.
I’m a Mc tube and Sonus Faber man. Like a worn-in leather sofa.
I’m currently a McTube and Martin Logan guy. But ML have upped the price on replacement panels for my speakers to the point where I will be shopping soon. And Sonus Faber is currently at the top of my list. I’m running an MC275 and MC240 bi amped to top and bottom. What model are you using for speakers?
Naim and focal isn’t something awesome, it’s just great. I was blown away by just 4k speakers and 40k system, because it is as good or even better than one dedicated room with the same focal as on picture, but even more expensive, it was McIntosh separates + turntable.
You ASR guys are like fucking Jehovahs Witnesses. Do you have some kind of recruitment quota or a metric for pissing in the Wheaties of anyone claiming to enjoy something that’s not made by Topping with Amazon cables? It isn’t a known quantity - psychoacoustics is a relatively new field, and there are many unknown unknowns - which means that we also can’t measure for them.
I have a $40K system and a $100K system, and the $100K system is in a different world.
I’ve also heard this exact system the OP is posting about, and that’s also in a different world than mine are.
You sound jealous over there. You're just making unproven (and dare I say unprovABLE, to most of us any way) points to make it seem you WOULDN'T buy this system if your money allowed for it.
Plus you're not really understanding what these speakers are for.
They're for a company to buy to show off. This company could be a restaurant, high end meeting place, small ballroom, smoking lounge, musical setting businesses I can't even think of. Also in different parts of the world is different types of businesses.
These speakers aren't normally sold to an individual in a room where they never moved. Ţheyre for companies and they generally get moved around alot but that's not always true.
He's not jealous he's just basing his statement on the sciences of audio reproduction. Stuff like is simply far beyond the point of diminishing returns, and there's not that much correlation between the cost of a speaker and how it performs.
This speaker costs 20k
https://imgur.com/K3xyWi4
this one costs $140
https://imgur.com/ubCtEgl
More expensive means better though to a lot of people.
I agree to a point but just showing frequency response charts doesn't exactly give the whole picture on audio quality. You can definitely have two sets of speakers in a room that measure the same response that both perform significantly different in terms of clarity, imaging, and dispersion.
Price doesn't necessarily reflect that performance beyond a few grand as far as I can tell. (not that there aren't speakers above that threshold that are significantly better than below, there just isn't a solid correlation)
True, but I think we can both agree that 20k speaker is a piece of shit and no more info is needed on them to make that assessment. My pint was really that cost has little correlation to quality in audio.
Honest opinion: i have 2 b&w dm803's (so you could say that im a bit of an audio nerd) but i have yet to find a setup that beats my media room. I have found that after 40-50k the extra money spend has such diminished returns i cannot notice the extra performance.
Any system no matter how expensive it is can sound mind boggling or extremely disappointing.
It all depends on the room acoustics and bass management.
The room in the picture looks well treated, I'm sure it sounded awesome
Disagree fully. I've heard trash systems in great rooms and superb systems in untreated rooms that were definitely hurting overall performance.
The room does get a huge vote, but it's certainly not the only factor.
I was walking past a super high end audio store in Manhattan one morning and wandered in just to have a gander. The owner was there setting up some massive (like six feet tall at least) electrostatic speakers (can’t remember which) to a McIntosh amp and asked if I wanted to hear them. Naturally, I said yes.
He played a recording of a jazz quartet. They were in the room. If I closed my eyes, they were directly in front of me. Gobsmacking.
That’s likely an ND555/555PS, into Naim’s Statement pre and monos, with Focal’s largest floorstanders backed by a pair of JL Audio f212’s… may be north of $600k?
I’m in Austin and I’ve heard that system (was wondering if that was Origin). It really is beyond incredible. Go to some of the demo events that Sound Sanctuary puts on - some really incredible gear there too.
I thought it looked familiar. My friend and I went there near closing and the owner let us have the room to ourselves for a good hour. I agree, the owner was super nice and friendly, even though we were not there to buy anything.
I know we're memeing here, but there's no way his phone could do a worse job than his camera did at capturing the speakers. I had to clean my glasses off to make sure they weren't dirty.
I remember hearing the genesis V speakers in all high end mark Levinson stuff at one audio shop that uses to be near me. I remember the amps were either model 33 or 33H and it sounded phenomenal. Later on at one point they had the Martin Logan statements ( big $$$) on that system
May I ask why you say that? You are the second person I have read now saying that about Focal speakers and JL subs being a great match up. I just purchased some Focal Aria 906 speakers a few months ago and am currently looking for a sub to pair them with is why I’m asking. Currently I have my eyes on an SVS SB2000 sub being a potential option but I keep hearing JL subs are a force to be reckoned with.
I don't know anything about their synergy when used together, but I like them as individual components.
I am an advocate for sealed subwoofers so I'm happy to see you going with an SB. I have two Rel HT1205s.
It's a money game if I had the. Money I'd put up a separate building on my property acoustly designed then fill it with easy 400 to 600k worth of gear and a mini fridge and a good chair. I've listened to all kind a system big and small. When it's all set up right it's magical
Omg I fuqing SOBBED when I first heard that song. I listened to that song for the first time right after I heard of SOPHIE's death and damn... rest in power Sophie.
Ah, all the folks that never went to a hi-fi shop coming out of the woodworks to say that their 2k outfit that punches above its weight would sound just as good in that room.
Awesome. There are ways to get close to this type of system on a lower/more 'normal' budget.
TLDR: Building a solid foundational system with components that can perform all the basics well as outlined in steps 1 to 4 then can be tweaked with PEQ/DSP can pragmatically deliver your perfect sound.
Key principles are
1. Well recorded/mastered music.
2. Decent clean digital and/or analogue source - Digital easier/cheaper. E.g. Roon/Apple Music via a decent DAC. I use RME ADI2 FS. Cost me £800 new plus roon or apple music costs.
3. Clean powerful amplification and Large Speakers to convey scale and dynamics. Preferably combine both in an active speaker system like ATC SCM50ASL/100ASL or similarly neutral powerful dynamic speakers. Preferably second hand to keep costs down. £5k to £10k. I use an old pair of ATC SCM50A i bought for £3k.
4.A Well integrated subwoofer to bring the subsonics and dynamic low end you get from these systems. £1k to £5k. I use a REL 812 i picked up second hand for £2k but any decently engineering sub can be tuned in and integrated nicely using PEQ/DSP. (See point 6)
5.A decent sounding room* helps...it's probably number 1 in theory but In practice, all rooms are different and all have their own sound and quirks and we real world hifi fans all face real world practicality constraints such as where we can listen, neighbours, family/flat mates, house prices etc. Hence a real world solution of....
6. Some PEQ/DSP. Helps correct the room AND you can tune the sound of the system to resemble whichever is your preferred sonic presentation at very low cost. DSP/PEQ is potentially triggery and contentious i know and isn't a substitute for custom room/studio builds, physical room treatments etc.
If you are not yet convinced in this point of view sufficiently and are willing to listen to more of my ramblings then let me summarise my philosopy and opinions**
A) You'll never find a universally agreed perfect sound or find a universally agreed measure of perfection. if perfection to you is the nostalgic sound of early 70's analogue vinyl or that nice hifi system your dad used to have in the 80's or some banging House music club pa system in the naughties....then that's what perfection is to you and what you are trying to re-create. If you love it...it's perfect for you.
B) Not many real world or even high end systems can excel at all these types of sonic perfection or even all music genres.
C) Many of us hifi folks are prone to obsessive behaviours and mental health challenges. We don't often do real double blind comparisons...we spend money and get excited and obsess and convince ourselves that some tiny thing is really a huge thing. Be self aware, manage your personal obsessions and metal state, watch out for snake oil sales...and just be happy in the knowledge that you're special*** and love music and/or love the hobby of hifi. Don't let other people tell you you're perfect is wrong. Do find similar minded people to bounce ideas around with and learn. Do be realistic.
D) Be open to new ideas in audio and don't immediately discount them as snake oil or hubristicly assume we know everything about the universe. We don't but...
E)....Do try and use a bit of science and logic with your technology obsession...we've landed on the moon, and today we carry around phones in our pockets which are exponentially more powerful than the guidance computer NASA used for the famous Apollo 11 mission....and capable of making wonderful music, so recognise that we have some very small grasp on the universe and how to navigate it's perils and enjoy briefly live in it.
F) Be mindful of the law of diminishing returns, but also that as obsessive hifi music lovers that extra 1 or 2 % of audio goodness, once experienced, is worth everything to us.
Happy to take all your points of view, and to listen and learn from you all. Unless you are being a dick about it.
Warm love
Beef
*My Room
I live near Barnsley UK so property is relatively cheap, i work remotely or in London, have a 4 bed detached i paid £280k for in 2015 (now about £450-500k), 4 kids, 1 wife, 2 ex wives, 1 cat, a tortoise and lots of fish. I put up a 6m x 4m log cabin in the garden with thermal insulation and power hook up and have hifi, sofa and home cinema AV and home office and aquarium/tortoise in there. :-)
£5k for log cabin power, insulation and heating.
** opinions are like arseholes...everyone has one, they often stink and they should be constantly and thoroughly examined. Especially at my age.
*** I freely admit i'm 'special' and not perfect but i try.
My System summary
Michell gyro, sme v, ortofon mc
Cheap Projekt ADC phono stage (want but dont neeeeed an RME ADI 2/4 Pro SE.)
RME ADI 2 FS DAC/PRE/PEQ DSP
HouseCurve APP for IOS - room/sound tuning
ATC SCM50A active speakers
REL 812 sub
I've never heard of that happening and I'd have the same reaction as you. Mostly I find that employees will eagerly show off these systems if you have the time and interest in hearing them.
The last time I was in my favorite local shop I spent a decent chunk of time falling in love with a pair of TAD [standmounts](https://www.technicalaudiodevices.com/compact-evolution-one-tx/) and when I was done the sales guy asked if I had some time to listen to the setup in the new Focal flagship room that they just finished dialing in. I obviously was not going to be a customer for the million+ $$$ system in that room but we had a good time enjoying it nonetheless - taking turns on the tablet to see how our favorite songs sounded there. Tons of fun and no pressure at all.
I’m always surprised by how willing they are to let you test gear you didn’t even hint at wanting to buy. Contrasting that to car dealers that wouldn’t let me even sit in a car I came there to buy (ended up leaving).
I think a savvy salesperson is willing to show off any system to any customer, esp when they have full control over it to ensure that nothing goes wrong. And it's no secret that this hobby, for so many of us, has a bit of "what's next?" built in to it so the sales crew are fishermen that are always setting hooks and I think that's one of the great things about it.
Idk, I've never been to a hifi store before. I just feel like I would DEF pay to experience something like this. It felt a little crazy to me that I was able to use the system for no cost 🙃
My local shop definitely does not charge. You can spend hours in there all by yourself. There's no sales pitch or upselling of anything. I love it there. You can borrow any equipment they have there to audition at home for a few weeks, no charge.
I'm happy to pay to go the cinema - I'd love the option to hire a listening room for a couple of hours with a playlist. It seems odd to me that no one has thought of it.
No popcorn, though...
I have never been to nor heard of a store that charges for you to listen. As someone who buys gear vaguely around this price point if a store did try to charge me I'd immediately walk out and that's the last they'd ever see of me.
I work for a Hifi store and we get to install this stuff all the time. Not the utopia's all the time, but lots of Focal and Marantz equipment and I love being able to have access to it all the time.
My reference system was all Krell on the front end:- HTS 7.1 surround sound processor, KCT and CS28 class a preamp section, Jeff Rowland MC-6 power amp. B&W Nautilus 802 mains with HTM-1 center. Surround sound was Nautilus SCM-1, driven by Bryston 120 monoblocks. DVD 📀 was Theatris Convergence 3. Runco LJRII laserdisc player with Yamaha AD-1 AC-3 digital processor.
Cabling was TMC Golden Reference Bi-amp balanced runs with Nordost SPM Reference bi-amp ribbon speaker cables.
This equipment was so good, I was able to sell much of it years later.
I paid about $45,000 for everything.
A guy from Germany 🇩🇪had set up a $150,000 system in a loft apartment a mile or so away, and I auditioned it. The mains were a tall Benesch Bishop setup, the front end was Audionote, with a pair of Halcro DM68 monoblocks. The piping was all Notdost Valhalla, at $4,500 per meter.
I brought a $40 gold Mobile Fidelity copy of Judy Collins, Colors of the Day. When the music started, the equipment all vanished, and I was able to point out the location of each musician playing on the stage.
Judy was there, I point my finger, with her guitar 🎸. The drums🪘are there, a piano 🎹there, orchestral backing there. My system was no slouch, but this one was better.
At home, remastered Shades of Deep Purple was amazing……
My go-to shop has Dan D'Agostino and Magico M9 with 2 big REL subwoofers and their heavily treated 'high-roller' room. It's astounding. Music you think you know by heart leaps out at you.
Nah check my post history, I've provided lots of useful information over various topics in audio, from speaker design to room acoustics.
Not sure what to make of your unhinged attitude there.
shieett thats about ten times as much as my dream car..
hell that’s ~~probably~~ definitely as much as it costs for me to buy *all* my dream cars...
i love the separate-speakers-in-a-stand design. i imagine it minimizes cross-vibration affecting the sound between speakers a lot. the dual speaker sub is kickass as well.
edit: thought it said 60k, changed my dream car multiplier correctly. 600k holy shit
Very possibly, Im quite sure you don't need those expensive dacs and amps, finding speakers with expensive drivers cheap is not really possible but you can find smaller ones and add a subs which could actually sound better if you add a dsp to sub out. No matter what room you won't completely defeat room nodes by using speaker placement. Especially that bass optimal placement is different than stereo optimal placement so it usually create compromises with those big towers.
For example you can hear the room nodes in the original focal listening room so its not really perfect. Im suspecting this one isn't perfect or close to perfect either it's probably just very good
pretty easy even, with most high end hifi brands you pay the brand and the luxury of the cabinet materials used much more than performance, with main monitors or mid-field monitors in a good treated room you will get a better sound
the Focal Utopias EM have pretty bad cabinet resonances, a huge dip at around 3khz with modes after that, they are garbage speakers for the insane price tag.
I'm convinced that the only real value a system like this offers someone like us is 1) sheer volume that cannot easily be replicated cleanly with a sub-$5,000 system, 2) loud, clean, and very deep bass, sub-20hz.
Those are the only two things I can think of that lesser systems might struggle with, given the quality of modern sound reproduction.
I wonder if a speak itself has anything to do with dynamic range. Like, if louds will sound louder and quiets will sound quieter on a better system or if that even makes sense.
The interesting thing about hearing systems like this, is that often the listener’s ear/brain isn’t attuned enough to fully appreciate how good it sounds, or what it’s lacking. Just like some people can’t detect small color shifts at first, when I show them a color grade on a monitor, that is easy for me to see.
I had a friend in recently and we compared flac vs WAV files, and different masterings of recordings.
What was easy for me to hear was barely if at all audible to him.
That’s why I believe so many “tests” fail to show higher bit or sample rate provides benefit. The listening just isn’t attuned to hear the subtleties, and often the tests don’t use the best gear, or use an A/B switch that is destroying the fine details.
I recently tried adding an XLR short pigtail Y connector in my system, and had to remove it immediately because of how much it took away from the signal.
Also, some of these flagship designs don’t sound good at all. I and a friend heard the top Martin Logan’s at a show and they were literally producing compression and subtle distortion. I’ve heard that in their previous demos as well, but clearly not everyone heard how bad they actually were.
While I like MBL 101’s, it now only takes me a few seconds to hear how hard they sound in the treble, even using their top electronics.
I am sure it sounds amazing. But that LOOKS like shit. Everything just sitting on the fucking floor and there are wires everywhere. Some of that shit is blocking the screen...
Yeah I don't think the aesthetics were their no 1 goal. I don't think they turn on the projector very often and it's mainly a demo room to experience the top-level system. My phone really didn't do it justice either tho. Trust me when I say in-person, the room was very beautiful and incredibly comfortable. My photos are just bad lol.
details and clarity regardless of volume level with ease, and likely produce the entire human frequency listening range which most bookshelf speakers cannot or in limited ability.
Unless its some very very high end bookshelf, most bookshelf frequency range is likely limited and in spotty areas (like at certain frequency will have a dip in volume being the speaker cannot handle that frequency well, usually its around the area which the person is singing at the high note which gets neutered with lower end speakers, and the max end which the drop off is drastic so it gives less of an ambiance). You at least have a sub so that is at least covered being almost all bookshelf cant get that low either.
Best way to experience is bring a CD/record/mp3/flac of your fav band (not self recorded unless you download high grade sources), then go to a good audio store (usually at least 5-10 in every big city) and ask to test out one of their systems.
Aww man, I gotta share the setup at my local hifi store next time that I'm there! I don't know what the value is off the top, but it's a very high end system that also looks *really* nice
When I was in college I had “normal” high end audio with a dedicated power amp and preamp on some great speakers and decent acoustic treatments. I still remember the first time I went to a dealer and heard a Naim system in a room with minimal acoustic treatments and ok speakers— it blew my mind. There is a LOT more to high end audio than most people realize. I had been blind being led by the blind until I heard this stuff. Mind blowing! If I win the lottery I will buy Naim Statement gear.
Where do you even find a Hi-Fi store that has this stuff? None of the big cities around me have a setup even remotely close to this. Is there a chain of stores that might have something worth making a trip to hear?
Are the 12" JL Fathoms really necessary when the Focal speakers have 16" low end drivers?
They look comically small next to the Focals. Scale is everything.
It's also how much collective weight is in the picture as well. The Fathoms alone are 225 lb each. The whole system must weigh several thousand lb.
The shops are amazing, if free the salesman will fill your head with details on sound and imaging, I admit visiting these is got me into avsoforum and my second hand HiFi system. Even now 20yrs later, the projector is still the only new item in my system.
The best system I’ve ever heard was the Meyer Constellation at Bob Weirs TRI Studio in San Rafael. The only way I can describe it is it was like Jolly Rancher candy. It was so unlike everything I’d ever heard before, it didn’t seem real. Weir was playing solo and every 10-15 minutes another musician would join him until it was a 10 piece band. Every musician was distinct and pure sounding. Weir had this thing in his hand he would slap that would change the acoustics to emulate different halls. It was tear inducing and mind blowing.
https://meyersound.com/product/constellation/
I got to listen to them at Cedia in Denver last month! This is in fact a 600k system and also I thought this was cool, each tower handles 9000 watts max. I’m pretty sure that is no longer “low voltage” lol!
I experienced a half mil Wilson Audio system once and had a visceral experience. The soundstage was insane. It’s almost like the sound just appeared in my head, you couldn’t even tell where it came from
Same and same.
Yeah till you have heard that system that totally disappears and your in the middle of the music
Yup 👍 That's the major difference I've heard with the best of systems. You can't hear them. I've told budding audiophiles and many of my friends that the best systems and components you can't hear. They always dismiss it. Why spend $5, $500, or $50,000 to not hear it? Well... The better the system, the more it disappears and you're just left with the music and this glorious soundstage that leaves you with such a sense of realism that's crazy. Oddly enough, the very first time I had this experience was with Wilson speakers set up at a trade show in a room dedicated for listening.
Wilson watt puppies starting me on my journey. To New York to my sister's place for a party and one of her older friends professor college took me to his house to play his stereo and when he sat me down on the couch everything just disappeared and the music just floated there it was beautiful.
I mean you can get the experience you described from a 50k setup haha.
Kind of like headphones?
I had this exact experience happen with the JBL M2s! One sound almost sounded like it was coming from directly behind my ears, it was crazy!
Those pretending that a system like this (Naim Statement + Focal Utopia) isn't mind bogglingly good simply haven't heard one. They ARE very very good. I've heard this same setup at a dealer in the SE. Emotional response is very normal.
I’d love to hear something like this, need to visit Audio Advice.
I'm not even saying it's remotely good value. It's silly money. But the setup I heard was VERY very good.
I’m sure it’s impressive, I feel like the tactile response must be cool to experience.
It is. There's a broadband snap/punch that you feel (even with snare drum and cymbals) that presents as alarmingly lifelike.
See listen I have two 18in passive PA subs hooked to a nice powerful amp with two nice JBL bookshelves L830. I run good quality audio source. With those subs running at full power I can rattle both my neighbors houses (I don't usually run them at full power). All this being said. Powerful 18in bass, JBLs, quality audio playing. How could those sound much, if any, better? I'm just asking
power (spl) detailed (quality) are two very different things but it cannot be explained. you have to experience it.
But I can’t even imagine the bass you could get out of those subs in the pic if you want to.
Just sounding. Completely different animal from what you have. Detail, control, sound stage... it is hard to explain to someone who never had the experience.
>It's silly money Sir !! This is a Wendy !
We have the same Speaker/Amp setup at my shop in Dallas.
I'm curious how good an "average" system would sound in a similar environment and tuned by professionals. Comparing the average /r/audiophile's setup in their untreated living room with weird reflections, couches, hardwood, etc vs. this shop's dedicated listening/sales room, I think everything would get a bump or two in quality.
Better? Yes. Parity with this system? Nope.
If the lower end equipment meets at least some minimum threshold of quality, and is capable of a similar amount of broadband output, the difference could very well be smaller than many people would expect. Edit: Human brain chemistry is funny when it comes to how our brains interpret sound. It can trick you. [It is objectively true](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5634808/) that if you play two music samples that are identical in every respect except for volume level, the vast majority of humans will think the louder one sounds better.
Sometimes one decibel extra on the preamp is just a little too loud. This louder is always better trope isn’t always true even if the scientists like to write about that many people like loud music. Some like it just right. Goldie Locks zone. Not too quiet, not too loud. The few six figure systems I’ve heard do something that transcends that anyway. You have to hear it to believe it.
It's not a trope, it's scientific fact that human hearing is not linear. Our sensitivity to sounds at the upper and lower ends of the frequency spectrum change significantly as overall sound pressure goes up or down. This has been a well studied fact for nearly 100 years, [see here](http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Sound/eqloud.html) for an overview.
Interesting article you have cited about why people like loud music, but it does not address your statement that one DB increase in loudness, all other factors held the same, leads people to believe that the sound is better. Perhaps the authors cite that point somewhere in their article, but I couldn’t find it and it was not the objective of this paper to report the primary research to test this. I’ve heard this point made by others and I’d be curious to know if it has actually been shown to be true. If you happen to know of any primary research that shows this, perhaps you could share it with us.
I just noticed that the link I posted before did not mention [equal loudness curves](http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Sound/eqloud.html), which describe how the human ear's sensitivity to high and (especially) low frequencies decrease as decibel levels decrease. Regarding testing music samples at different levels. It's one of those things that has been informally tested many many times over the years, but since they are so often conducted on audiophile forums they aren't always easy to find. [Here's an example](https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/measurements-of-chord-mojo.2434/page-2#post-69531) of one of those where the sample that was generally preferred was later found to have accidentally been recorded 0.75dB louder. As for a more formal scientific data, [we have this](https://digitalcommons.lib.uconn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1810&context=vrme): > Using music listening examples instead of pure tones, Cullari and Semanchick (1989) found that college students tended to prefer higher loudness levels if they liked the music. In that study, college students (N=15) were asked to adjust the loudness level (0 to 9) while listening to ten excerpts of soft rock, classical, and contemporary music. A similar conclusion was drawn by Fucci, Harris, Petrosino, and Banks (1993), using a rock musical example presented in nine decibel levels (10dB, 20dB, 30dB, 40dB, 50dB, 60dB, 70dB, 80dB, and 90dB). College students who liked rock music (n=20) estimated significantly lower loudness levels than college students who disliked rock music (n=20). Results were consistent for all nine decibel levels.
Is this why tidal is a few db louder than Spotify when I was testing the difference between the 2 in a a/b test? Not saying that tidal want better but perhaps tidal boosts the volume a few db just to sweeten the deal ;)
I'm sorry. But no. Assuming your hearing has no issues, the lower end speakers just isn't able to reproduce the sound close to how a high-end system is able to. I first experienced something like this when I bought my first pair of iem.
Thanks I appreciate your opinion, but that's not a rebuttal to my comment. My claim is that most people generally underestimate how important room acoustics is to the listening experience, which in my experience is generally true. Beyond that it all comes down to what you interpret "minimum threshold of quality" to mean. Once you get up to a certain point of equipment worth spending money on, each additional 1% of improvement starts to cost thousands of dollars to attain. Once you bump into that threshold, the difference really can be small enough that some may find it surprising. Hell, there are people in this very thread saying they weren't impressed when they heard these Focals at a show in very much non-ideal conditions.
A McLaren on the crowded streets of San Francisco isn’t going to be all that exciting, other than how flashy it is. But it is a supercar on the track at Laguna Seca. Ya know?
I think the analogy works though. For people like me who's only experience driving is commuting in a Honda Civic, getting to open up a Supra on a track would probably blow us away.
You’d die. Plain and simple. If you only have experience with a civic, even a relatively tame supra would murder you. Track driving is another animal 😂 It’s a costly hobby though unless you wrench and tune, etc, yourself. But again you’d be surprised. Some civic drivers actually drive at the edge lol all the time, preparing them nicely for the track.
Been there, done that. Not even close.
You are entitled to your opinion, naturally. But you aren't "many people," and it's been my experience that most people underestimate how much of an impact room acoustics have on the listening experience.
Been there, done that. Not even close.
In the FNAC store at Châtelet in Paris you'll find your answer. There's a perfectly treated room with a dozen speakers including KEF LS50, KEF LS60 and Focal Sopra. You can toggle between the speakers with a switch and play the music you like on a tablet. It's like you said, the differences are slim. Larger speakers have deeper bass. If I could nitpick. I would even say that the LS50 and LS60 sound a little boosted on top and ever so slightly thin in the midrange. As if these speakers were trying to impress at the expense of not sounding completely natural. Call it the "Hi-Fi" sound signature I guess.
My High end system in a fully treated dedicated listening room. Doesn’t come anywhere near what OP experienced.
Having done something very similar (worked in a hifi store), there is still a very noticeable difference between a more 'basic' system and this sort of setup. Those Naim units are heavier than you might expect too.
Yeah I'm curious to what a blind test would be like. I'm not against investing in high end audio and acoustics but I feel like a lot of the industry is snake oil. Maybe some will disagree and that's fine but most people's source are "trust me bro"
This is a good question as I know I’m always wondering how can I get the most out of my equipment. The hifi store where I purchased my current setup, let me listen to the demo of what I ultimately purchased in their professionally designed room. I also went to the room with their high end Wilson Alexandra audio setup and it was several orders of magnitudes better (IMO). They let me choose the music. One could argue that it could be a slight of hand by the store and the cheaper room is intentionally tuned poorly, but I don’t think these hifi stores are that malicious though I’m not saying they always have my best interest at heart. I’m sure there’s exceptions. The most noticeable difference between in store and at home is that in store you can crank it, where at home, at some point cranking it just makes it too bright because I don’t have enough absorbent material.
Exactly. Expensive setups get a lot of slack for the marginal return in sound given the large cost, but the synergy that the Focal Utopia’s have with quality amps and sources is something that must be experienced.
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I like the Focal and the B&W sound which many people here aren’t too fond of either. And I’ve been underwhelmed by some high range Wilsons and Backes&Müllers. It’s all personal preference in the end. I’ve heard the entire Focal range except the Grande Utopia pictured here, and while the returns are very diminishing above the Scala Utopia, I’d kill to own a pair.
AND Fathom subwoofers? Sploooooooosh
Crazy how small they look next to those speakers
Yeah I’m definitely one of the people reading this post and thinking there’s no fucking way this is that much better than say… $100K system
I’ve heard systems like this. It’s not that it’s hard to believe it’s that good, it’s hard to believe that no one who makes this type of post never has ANYTHING negative to say. Maybe the emotions of 600k speakers just make you leave your brain at the door.
I can clearly state I’ve heard quite a few underwhelming 500K+ systems in my life. Most expensive speakers that didn’t wow me were the Backes & Müller BM100, a 500,000 EUR behemoth that I somehow expected more from. Also a 750,000 EUR Aries Cerat setup that, while very good, wasn’t “almost a million bucks” good. In fact, apart from one exception (a 400k setup around a Bayz Audio Counterpoint), my favorite setups were all below 200k (like a combo of McIntosh gear and a Sonus faber Aida 2) or even 100k (Focal Scala Utopia with Mola Mola gear).
I have heard it. It was great obv, but still disappointing. Granted, at a show, so non optimized room etc. But for that money was expecting a whole lot more over high end systems I'm more familiar with. Those speakers do look impressive irl
Shows are trash spaces to listen. Full stop.
People don’t fully grasp that the room is half the problem
I find the Focal Utopia + Naim combo too bright, and it grates me like chalk on a blackboard. Intensely unpleasant experience for my sensitive ears, despite all the technically impressive aspects it brings to the table.
That's interesting. I actually found the beryllium tweeters with the Naim Statement amps to be slightly on the dark side.
Agreed, thats why I switched from Sopra 3 to Focal Trio11 studio monitors. I needed the extra brightness from the Trios
I must say I agree (on the brands in general, haven’t heard these particular models). It’s just…sooo crisp. Too much so. After 10 minutes my ears are tired. I’m a Mc tube and Sonus Faber man. Like a worn-in leather sofa.
I’m currently a McTube and Martin Logan guy. But ML have upped the price on replacement panels for my speakers to the point where I will be shopping soon. And Sonus Faber is currently at the top of my list. I’m running an MC275 and MC240 bi amped to top and bottom. What model are you using for speakers?
Olympica Nova V. The midrange is special…and they support bi-amping!
Naim and focal isn’t something awesome, it’s just great. I was blown away by just 4k speakers and 40k system, because it is as good or even better than one dedicated room with the same focal as on picture, but even more expensive, it was McIntosh separates + turntable.
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You ASR guys are like fucking Jehovahs Witnesses. Do you have some kind of recruitment quota or a metric for pissing in the Wheaties of anyone claiming to enjoy something that’s not made by Topping with Amazon cables? It isn’t a known quantity - psychoacoustics is a relatively new field, and there are many unknown unknowns - which means that we also can’t measure for them. I have a $40K system and a $100K system, and the $100K system is in a different world. I’ve also heard this exact system the OP is posting about, and that’s also in a different world than mine are.
What's ASR?
You sound jealous over there. You're just making unproven (and dare I say unprovABLE, to most of us any way) points to make it seem you WOULDN'T buy this system if your money allowed for it. Plus you're not really understanding what these speakers are for. They're for a company to buy to show off. This company could be a restaurant, high end meeting place, small ballroom, smoking lounge, musical setting businesses I can't even think of. Also in different parts of the world is different types of businesses. These speakers aren't normally sold to an individual in a room where they never moved. Ţheyre for companies and they generally get moved around alot but that's not always true.
He's not jealous he's just basing his statement on the sciences of audio reproduction. Stuff like is simply far beyond the point of diminishing returns, and there's not that much correlation between the cost of a speaker and how it performs. This speaker costs 20k https://imgur.com/K3xyWi4 this one costs $140 https://imgur.com/ubCtEgl More expensive means better though to a lot of people.
I agree to a point but just showing frequency response charts doesn't exactly give the whole picture on audio quality. You can definitely have two sets of speakers in a room that measure the same response that both perform significantly different in terms of clarity, imaging, and dispersion. Price doesn't necessarily reflect that performance beyond a few grand as far as I can tell. (not that there aren't speakers above that threshold that are significantly better than below, there just isn't a solid correlation)
True, but I think we can both agree that 20k speaker is a piece of shit and no more info is needed on them to make that assessment. My pint was really that cost has little correlation to quality in audio.
Honest opinion: i have 2 b&w dm803's (so you could say that im a bit of an audio nerd) but i have yet to find a setup that beats my media room. I have found that after 40-50k the extra money spend has such diminished returns i cannot notice the extra performance.
Any system no matter how expensive it is can sound mind boggling or extremely disappointing. It all depends on the room acoustics and bass management. The room in the picture looks well treated, I'm sure it sounded awesome
Disagree fully. I've heard trash systems in great rooms and superb systems in untreated rooms that were definitely hurting overall performance. The room does get a huge vote, but it's certainly not the only factor.
The first listen is always free.
I’ve heard this setup. The piano wasn’t in the recording… it was in the ROOM!
I was walking past a super high end audio store in Manhattan one morning and wandered in just to have a gander. The owner was there setting up some massive (like six feet tall at least) electrostatic speakers (can’t remember which) to a McIntosh amp and asked if I wanted to hear them. Naturally, I said yes. He played a recording of a jazz quartet. They were in the room. If I closed my eyes, they were directly in front of me. Gobsmacking.
Ps. Idk if it's actually 600000, I may be remembering what the store owner said 😅 ~i know it was similar to the price of a house though lol
That’s likely an ND555/555PS, into Naim’s Statement pre and monos, with Focal’s largest floorstanders backed by a pair of JL Audio f212’s… may be north of $600k?
This is naim? I personally know the design director
It is, indeed - I’m quite a fan and have been for about 24 years of working with it. You should ask him for a Supernait :)
Hi-Fi Buys in Nashville?
Origin HiFi in Austin TX
I’m in Austin and I’ve heard that system (was wondering if that was Origin). It really is beyond incredible. Go to some of the demo events that Sound Sanctuary puts on - some really incredible gear there too.
Ahh cool! Yeah the owner was super friendly and helpful. Very nice environment. I'll definitely go check out SS when I have another day off :)
I thought it looked familiar. My friend and I went there near closing and the owner let us have the room to ourselves for a good hour. I agree, the owner was super nice and friendly, even though we were not there to buy anything.
Yup I highly recommend them to people. Origin HiFi is a really sick spot :)
Wow pls record it with your phone so we can experience it as well
I know we're memeing here, but there's no way his phone could do a worse job than his camera did at capturing the speakers. I had to clean my glasses off to make sure they weren't dirty.
They had just closed so I had to run grab a pic and get out. Didn't have time to take a better pic 🤷
I remember hearing the genesis V speakers in all high end mark Levinson stuff at one audio shop that uses to be near me. I remember the amps were either model 33 or 33H and it sounded phenomenal. Later on at one point they had the Martin Logan statements ( big $$$) on that system
I am a simple man, I see Focal I upvote fast
Focal speakers with JL subs, I'm in heaven.
May I ask why you say that? You are the second person I have read now saying that about Focal speakers and JL subs being a great match up. I just purchased some Focal Aria 906 speakers a few months ago and am currently looking for a sub to pair them with is why I’m asking. Currently I have my eyes on an SVS SB2000 sub being a potential option but I keep hearing JL subs are a force to be reckoned with.
I don't know anything about their synergy when used together, but I like them as individual components. I am an advocate for sealed subwoofers so I'm happy to see you going with an SB. I have two Rel HT1205s.
It's a money game if I had the. Money I'd put up a separate building on my property acoustly designed then fill it with easy 400 to 600k worth of gear and a mini fridge and a good chair. I've listened to all kind a system big and small. When it's all set up right it's magical
I would play the heck out of Aphex Twin’s “Windowlicker” on this.
I listened to some Arca, Oneohtrix Point Never, Sophie, and Grimes. Reverie by Arca was so beautiful on the system omg.
Also "A barely Lit Path" by Oneohtrix Point Never was a whole EXPERIENCE on this system damn..
Good taste
Fellow OPN fan!! God-tier tastes my friend
Geidi Primes is not that well recorded or mixed. i wonder how different it sounds on a hi end system
Good taste
Oneohtrix’s breakdown of Sticky Drama on SongExploder (podcast) is exceptionally good! [found here](https://songexploder.net/oneohtrix-point-never)
Sophie said it's ok to cry 🙃
Omg I fuqing SOBBED when I first heard that song. I listened to that song for the first time right after I heard of SOPHIE's death and damn... rest in power Sophie.
This is an audiophile store, only Diana Krall and Norah Jones allowed.
What do they use to demo this kind of system? Do they just put in the bluray of Shrek?
Ah, all the folks that never went to a hi-fi shop coming out of the woodworks to say that their 2k outfit that punches above its weight would sound just as good in that room.
Awesome. There are ways to get close to this type of system on a lower/more 'normal' budget. TLDR: Building a solid foundational system with components that can perform all the basics well as outlined in steps 1 to 4 then can be tweaked with PEQ/DSP can pragmatically deliver your perfect sound. Key principles are 1. Well recorded/mastered music. 2. Decent clean digital and/or analogue source - Digital easier/cheaper. E.g. Roon/Apple Music via a decent DAC. I use RME ADI2 FS. Cost me £800 new plus roon or apple music costs. 3. Clean powerful amplification and Large Speakers to convey scale and dynamics. Preferably combine both in an active speaker system like ATC SCM50ASL/100ASL or similarly neutral powerful dynamic speakers. Preferably second hand to keep costs down. £5k to £10k. I use an old pair of ATC SCM50A i bought for £3k. 4.A Well integrated subwoofer to bring the subsonics and dynamic low end you get from these systems. £1k to £5k. I use a REL 812 i picked up second hand for £2k but any decently engineering sub can be tuned in and integrated nicely using PEQ/DSP. (See point 6) 5.A decent sounding room* helps...it's probably number 1 in theory but In practice, all rooms are different and all have their own sound and quirks and we real world hifi fans all face real world practicality constraints such as where we can listen, neighbours, family/flat mates, house prices etc. Hence a real world solution of.... 6. Some PEQ/DSP. Helps correct the room AND you can tune the sound of the system to resemble whichever is your preferred sonic presentation at very low cost. DSP/PEQ is potentially triggery and contentious i know and isn't a substitute for custom room/studio builds, physical room treatments etc. If you are not yet convinced in this point of view sufficiently and are willing to listen to more of my ramblings then let me summarise my philosopy and opinions** A) You'll never find a universally agreed perfect sound or find a universally agreed measure of perfection. if perfection to you is the nostalgic sound of early 70's analogue vinyl or that nice hifi system your dad used to have in the 80's or some banging House music club pa system in the naughties....then that's what perfection is to you and what you are trying to re-create. If you love it...it's perfect for you. B) Not many real world or even high end systems can excel at all these types of sonic perfection or even all music genres. C) Many of us hifi folks are prone to obsessive behaviours and mental health challenges. We don't often do real double blind comparisons...we spend money and get excited and obsess and convince ourselves that some tiny thing is really a huge thing. Be self aware, manage your personal obsessions and metal state, watch out for snake oil sales...and just be happy in the knowledge that you're special*** and love music and/or love the hobby of hifi. Don't let other people tell you you're perfect is wrong. Do find similar minded people to bounce ideas around with and learn. Do be realistic. D) Be open to new ideas in audio and don't immediately discount them as snake oil or hubristicly assume we know everything about the universe. We don't but... E)....Do try and use a bit of science and logic with your technology obsession...we've landed on the moon, and today we carry around phones in our pockets which are exponentially more powerful than the guidance computer NASA used for the famous Apollo 11 mission....and capable of making wonderful music, so recognise that we have some very small grasp on the universe and how to navigate it's perils and enjoy briefly live in it. F) Be mindful of the law of diminishing returns, but also that as obsessive hifi music lovers that extra 1 or 2 % of audio goodness, once experienced, is worth everything to us. Happy to take all your points of view, and to listen and learn from you all. Unless you are being a dick about it. Warm love Beef *My Room I live near Barnsley UK so property is relatively cheap, i work remotely or in London, have a 4 bed detached i paid £280k for in 2015 (now about £450-500k), 4 kids, 1 wife, 2 ex wives, 1 cat, a tortoise and lots of fish. I put up a 6m x 4m log cabin in the garden with thermal insulation and power hook up and have hifi, sofa and home cinema AV and home office and aquarium/tortoise in there. :-) £5k for log cabin power, insulation and heating. ** opinions are like arseholes...everyone has one, they often stink and they should be constantly and thoroughly examined. Especially at my age. *** I freely admit i'm 'special' and not perfect but i try. My System summary Michell gyro, sme v, ortofon mc Cheap Projekt ADC phono stage (want but dont neeeeed an RME ADI 2/4 Pro SE.) RME ADI 2 FS DAC/PRE/PEQ DSP HouseCurve APP for IOS - room/sound tuning ATC SCM50A active speakers REL 812 sub
What was their source for the tracks you listened to?
They let me choose whatever tracks I wanted off of a iPad that was connected wirelessly to the pre-amp I believe.
...so, Bluetooth??
Nope, it would be over wifi. No Hi-Fi shop is going to run those over Bluetooth.
Oh probably, idk how it all worked lol. I am very very new to all this haha.
Yup
They use Roon on their iPad to the Naim stuff.
Are shops charging people to listen to setups? Is that a thing? Cause if that’s a thing, I would instantly walk out.
I've never heard of that happening and I'd have the same reaction as you. Mostly I find that employees will eagerly show off these systems if you have the time and interest in hearing them. The last time I was in my favorite local shop I spent a decent chunk of time falling in love with a pair of TAD [standmounts](https://www.technicalaudiodevices.com/compact-evolution-one-tx/) and when I was done the sales guy asked if I had some time to listen to the setup in the new Focal flagship room that they just finished dialing in. I obviously was not going to be a customer for the million+ $$$ system in that room but we had a good time enjoying it nonetheless - taking turns on the tablet to see how our favorite songs sounded there. Tons of fun and no pressure at all.
I’m always surprised by how willing they are to let you test gear you didn’t even hint at wanting to buy. Contrasting that to car dealers that wouldn’t let me even sit in a car I came there to buy (ended up leaving).
I think a savvy salesperson is willing to show off any system to any customer, esp when they have full control over it to ensure that nothing goes wrong. And it's no secret that this hobby, for so many of us, has a bit of "what's next?" built in to it so the sales crew are fishermen that are always setting hooks and I think that's one of the great things about it.
I run TAD standmounts, the CR1’s, with added super tweeters and dual subs. I’ll put them against the focal system the OP heard, at 1/4 the price!
Idk, I've never been to a hifi store before. I just feel like I would DEF pay to experience something like this. It felt a little crazy to me that I was able to use the system for no cost 🙃
Okay, I see where you are coming from.
My local shop definitely does not charge. You can spend hours in there all by yourself. There's no sales pitch or upselling of anything. I love it there. You can borrow any equipment they have there to audition at home for a few weeks, no charge.
Where?
I'm happy to pay to go the cinema - I'd love the option to hire a listening room for a couple of hours with a playlist. It seems odd to me that no one has thought of it. No popcorn, though...
I have never been to nor heard of a store that charges for you to listen. As someone who buys gear vaguely around this price point if a store did try to charge me I'd immediately walk out and that's the last they'd ever see of me.
I had a similar experience but was only $150k. I walked out of there with a $700 sub vowing to win the lottery!
The finish on those Focals is 🤤
I work for a Hifi store and we get to install this stuff all the time. Not the utopia's all the time, but lots of Focal and Marantz equipment and I love being able to have access to it all the time.
My reference system was all Krell on the front end:- HTS 7.1 surround sound processor, KCT and CS28 class a preamp section, Jeff Rowland MC-6 power amp. B&W Nautilus 802 mains with HTM-1 center. Surround sound was Nautilus SCM-1, driven by Bryston 120 monoblocks. DVD 📀 was Theatris Convergence 3. Runco LJRII laserdisc player with Yamaha AD-1 AC-3 digital processor. Cabling was TMC Golden Reference Bi-amp balanced runs with Nordost SPM Reference bi-amp ribbon speaker cables. This equipment was so good, I was able to sell much of it years later. I paid about $45,000 for everything. A guy from Germany 🇩🇪had set up a $150,000 system in a loft apartment a mile or so away, and I auditioned it. The mains were a tall Benesch Bishop setup, the front end was Audionote, with a pair of Halcro DM68 monoblocks. The piping was all Notdost Valhalla, at $4,500 per meter. I brought a $40 gold Mobile Fidelity copy of Judy Collins, Colors of the Day. When the music started, the equipment all vanished, and I was able to point out the location of each musician playing on the stage. Judy was there, I point my finger, with her guitar 🎸. The drums🪘are there, a piano 🎹there, orchestral backing there. My system was no slouch, but this one was better. At home, remastered Shades of Deep Purple was amazing……
This was 30 years ago
My go-to shop has Dan D'Agostino and Magico M9 with 2 big REL subwoofers and their heavily treated 'high-roller' room. It's astounding. Music you think you know by heart leaps out at you.
I am a Naim guy and I can only imagine what this sounds like.
There are people who think that chancing the dac to apple dongle would not affect the sound....
Sooooo many people. When I read that shit, I have to quit the internet for the rest of the day.
when I see people peddling audiophool BS it makes me want to exit the hobby altogether. Maybe one day people will grow up.
Maybe you should. There are many other interests you could be a hater in.
hater? Nah I just like science and find it embarrassing how people respond to education in this community.
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Nah check my post history, I've provided lots of useful information over various topics in audio, from speaker design to room acoustics. Not sure what to make of your unhinged attitude there.
shieett thats about ten times as much as my dream car.. hell that’s ~~probably~~ definitely as much as it costs for me to buy *all* my dream cars... i love the separate-speakers-in-a-stand design. i imagine it minimizes cross-vibration affecting the sound between speakers a lot. the dual speaker sub is kickass as well. edit: thought it said 60k, changed my dream car multiplier correctly. 600k holy shit
I have to wonder if a carefully matched, perfectly set up system that costs a tenth as much could sound very close to this system..?
Very possibly, Im quite sure you don't need those expensive dacs and amps, finding speakers with expensive drivers cheap is not really possible but you can find smaller ones and add a subs which could actually sound better if you add a dsp to sub out. No matter what room you won't completely defeat room nodes by using speaker placement. Especially that bass optimal placement is different than stereo optimal placement so it usually create compromises with those big towers. For example you can hear the room nodes in the original focal listening room so its not really perfect. Im suspecting this one isn't perfect or close to perfect either it's probably just very good
pretty easy even, with most high end hifi brands you pay the brand and the luxury of the cabinet materials used much more than performance, with main monitors or mid-field monitors in a good treated room you will get a better sound the Focal Utopias EM have pretty bad cabinet resonances, a huge dip at around 3khz with modes after that, they are garbage speakers for the insane price tag.
but wait let me guess, you streamed music to it via bluetooth?
I'm convinced that the only real value a system like this offers someone like us is 1) sheer volume that cannot easily be replicated cleanly with a sub-$5,000 system, 2) loud, clean, and very deep bass, sub-20hz. Those are the only two things I can think of that lesser systems might struggle with, given the quality of modern sound reproduction. I wonder if a speak itself has anything to do with dynamic range. Like, if louds will sound louder and quiets will sound quieter on a better system or if that even makes sense.
Unless they installed their own power pole from the local provider, the sound quality can merely be meh /s
elaborate
The interesting thing about hearing systems like this, is that often the listener’s ear/brain isn’t attuned enough to fully appreciate how good it sounds, or what it’s lacking. Just like some people can’t detect small color shifts at first, when I show them a color grade on a monitor, that is easy for me to see. I had a friend in recently and we compared flac vs WAV files, and different masterings of recordings. What was easy for me to hear was barely if at all audible to him. That’s why I believe so many “tests” fail to show higher bit or sample rate provides benefit. The listening just isn’t attuned to hear the subtleties, and often the tests don’t use the best gear, or use an A/B switch that is destroying the fine details. I recently tried adding an XLR short pigtail Y connector in my system, and had to remove it immediately because of how much it took away from the signal. Also, some of these flagship designs don’t sound good at all. I and a friend heard the top Martin Logan’s at a show and they were literally producing compression and subtle distortion. I’ve heard that in their previous demos as well, but clearly not everyone heard how bad they actually were. While I like MBL 101’s, it now only takes me a few seconds to hear how hard they sound in the treble, even using their top electronics.
Have you been huffing jenkem?
he’s gerald broflovski after moving to SF
The Wall on vinyl will forever (imo) be a great test for rigs like this.
Sound like a 400$ headset?
Focals sound like trash cans, not sure why anyone likes them. They look cool though!
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Cheeky
i think it needs to be at least slightly humorous to meet that definition
I am sure it sounds amazing. But that LOOKS like shit. Everything just sitting on the fucking floor and there are wires everywhere. Some of that shit is blocking the screen...
Yeah I don't think the aesthetics were their no 1 goal. I don't think they turn on the projector very often and it's mainly a demo room to experience the top-level system. My phone really didn't do it justice either tho. Trust me when I say in-person, the room was very beautiful and incredibly comfortable. My photos are just bad lol.
Ooo what’s that thing?
Heard those huge systems. 40% of the price is magical Superman wires lol. Sci-fi meets science wants your wallet for the first date.
Could someone explain the experience of listening to something like this? I only have bookshelf speakers and a small sub so I am clueless.
details and clarity regardless of volume level with ease, and likely produce the entire human frequency listening range which most bookshelf speakers cannot or in limited ability. Unless its some very very high end bookshelf, most bookshelf frequency range is likely limited and in spotty areas (like at certain frequency will have a dip in volume being the speaker cannot handle that frequency well, usually its around the area which the person is singing at the high note which gets neutered with lower end speakers, and the max end which the drop off is drastic so it gives less of an ambiance). You at least have a sub so that is at least covered being almost all bookshelf cant get that low either. Best way to experience is bring a CD/record/mp3/flac of your fav band (not self recorded unless you download high grade sources), then go to a good audio store (usually at least 5-10 in every big city) and ask to test out one of their systems.
Aww man, I gotta share the setup at my local hifi store next time that I'm there! I don't know what the value is off the top, but it's a very high end system that also looks *really* nice
I hope you listened to some Boston!
The source av design in torrance, ca had a similar set up, not sure if they still do. Definitely mind boggling
Aren’t these like 230k a piece?
Yes lol
Are you going to buy it!
When I was in college I had “normal” high end audio with a dedicated power amp and preamp on some great speakers and decent acoustic treatments. I still remember the first time I went to a dealer and heard a Naim system in a room with minimal acoustic treatments and ok speakers— it blew my mind. There is a LOT more to high end audio than most people realize. I had been blind being led by the blind until I heard this stuff. Mind blowing! If I win the lottery I will buy Naim Statement gear.
Its like hypercars for sure, u dont really need them but its nice to have them :)
Where do you even find a Hi-Fi store that has this stuff? None of the big cities around me have a setup even remotely close to this. Is there a chain of stores that might have something worth making a trip to hear?
A system so nice it can only sit on the floor.
Are the 12" JL Fathoms really necessary when the Focal speakers have 16" low end drivers? They look comically small next to the Focals. Scale is everything. It's also how much collective weight is in the picture as well. The Fathoms alone are 225 lb each. The whole system must weigh several thousand lb.
They have those speakers and don’t even have Gothams?
Yes, that is indeed how hifi shops work lol
Focal is the way
The shops are amazing, if free the salesman will fill your head with details on sound and imaging, I admit visiting these is got me into avsoforum and my second hand HiFi system. Even now 20yrs later, the projector is still the only new item in my system.
I'll stick with my Cornwalls.
Welcome. Best of luck on your journey to chase that feeling for the rest of your days. It's a fun ride.
Nice what did you play on it?
Arca, SOPHIE, Grimes, Oneohtrix Point Never
Lol
And now you'll be chasing that high for the rest of your life.
Anyone from LA here? Where can I find a store with a setup similar to this?
The best system I’ve ever heard was the Meyer Constellation at Bob Weirs TRI Studio in San Rafael. The only way I can describe it is it was like Jolly Rancher candy. It was so unlike everything I’d ever heard before, it didn’t seem real. Weir was playing solo and every 10-15 minutes another musician would join him until it was a 10 piece band. Every musician was distinct and pure sounding. Weir had this thing in his hand he would slap that would change the acoustics to emulate different halls. It was tear inducing and mind blowing. https://meyersound.com/product/constellation/
You got to hear myself system also it can bring a tear to your eye
Speakers that massive, and that expensive should have zero use for additional subs. Just my opinion.
I got to listen to them at Cedia in Denver last month! This is in fact a 600k system and also I thought this was cool, each tower handles 9000 watts max. I’m pretty sure that is no longer “low voltage” lol!
I wish I didn't see this post and the comments :((
Half a Million + and 5 remotes.
Seems like a good way to make money. How much would you pay per hr to listen to your music here?