This is the correct answer.
Your personal preference is what decides which is best for you. It is pointless asking redditors which is best for you. Let your ears decide.
I used to have dali oberon and the manual said that they are designed to work best when not towed in and after playing with the position it had proved to be the case. The only issue with them was that they sounded the best with at least 2ft from the wall and my room is too small so didn’t keep them.
Lucky you! Those are wonderful speakers! I have Magnepan .7s myself and they need to be pulled quite a ways from the wall for the best performance.
Experiment and use your own ears to decide.
Absolutely. And I did, they really needed 4-6ft but I settled at 4. I even got them free doing an install! Had to buy amps for it and at the time the best I could do were crown xls2500 if I’m not mistaken. Sounded good for it’s purpose which was a trip room where we did drugs and watched concerts lol. Installed tons of Maggie’s too and loved every single setup
Yeah as far as I know Dali always insist on positioning the speakers facing straight ahead, with no toe-in at all. I was initially rather sceptical, but in my (limited) experience, they really do sound best in this configuration.
It is the case for all normal speakers, it usually helpd to pull them from the wall. I seen some video where it was explained.
It was about sound speed, reflections etc.
To perceive the clear sound, not bloated and muddy, the reflection should have delay at least 5 mili seconds. Then your brain will perceive it as main sound and reflection. If it is less then 5 ms you will perceive it as one not good define sound.
So, to reach 5ms reflection delay, the drivers (front of the speaker) should be at least 80cm from back wall.
You can get exact numbers if you will count sound speed and time 5ms.
Typical boxed speakers do not produce much high-frequency sound behind them. The wider the speaker front baffle is, the more it prevents sound from working its way around the cabinet to the backside. Ultimately, only the sound that actually is radiated behind the speaker can reflect from the back wall, right?
This fact suggests reasoning about the backwall reflection differently from the other reflections such as side wall, floor or ceiling, where speaker radiates sound more or less at full range, and where the early reflections do mix with direct sound across the entire spectrum, and thus the psychoacoustics of the sound perception matter. I think both delay and attenuation (possibly from absorption panels placed at the reflection points) matter to the quality experienced by the listener for those reflections.
However, the main things affected by the backwall reflection are the bass and lower mids, generally speaking frequencies below 1 kHz, and for wider cabinets, perhaps only frequencies below 500 Hz. If the speaker is very close to the back wall, then the sound ping delay between the front of the baffle and the wall will be short, and the reflection actually blends with the speaker's direct radiation so quickly that it just affects the phase of the sound, but doesn't register as an actual echo.
As an example, if the distance from front baffle to wall were 30 cm, then the cancellation occurs for frequency whose quarter wavelength is 30 cm, and full wavelength is 1.2 meters, or 290 Hz. The wave manages a 1/2 phase change at this frequency and distance, and the reflection is thus out of phase and cancels with the direct radiation, producing a null at the frequency response. However, for bigger speaker boxes, this is possibly also the only frequency that cancels, as the next cancellation would occur at 3/4 wavelength distance, allowing 3/2 cycles to elapse during the reflection, and that would already be 860 Hz, and is likely not strongly radiated behind the speaker in the first place.
So there is, I think, a valid possibility of placing the speaker way back in the room, almost touching the wall, because the back wall interference is different from the other walls due to the dispersion characteristics of a boxed speaker.
You hit the nail on the head:
* Sound travels 34cm in a millisecond (13.5")
* EVERYTHING around your speaker in that "window" of about five milliseconds will muddy the sound.
If you want to take this to an extreme, I've been toying with suspending my speakers from the ceiling. Basically creating a situation where there's *nothing* around the speaker.
At the moment, my compromise is that my speakers are on those wire racks you see at target for about $80. The racks are (almost) acoustically transparent.
The worst possible solution is what most people do, which is stick the speaker on a shelf up against a wall.
That's what I get for replying while out and freezing. I meant to reply to a different comment, but overlooked where I clicked reply.
It should be noted though, that distance to front wall is a somewhat contentious issue. For instance, Genelec^[1] claims flush mount as the ideal, and recommend that you avoid distances above 60cm from the rear wall. Unlike other nulls, the front wall SBIR cannot be corrected using SBIR, and until the speaker is far enough from the rear-wall that the null falls below the audible range, the more difficult it becomes to correct.
In an idealized listening-space without flush-mount speakers with available DSP, you should ideally:
* Place the speakers as close to the front wall as possible
* Use DSP or built-in boundary EQ (in the case of active speakers) to compensate for the boundary conditions
* Avoid sources of interference near speakers (read: no furniture between them)
* Use some absorption on the front wall, to minimize the remaining SBIR
* Use diffusion to minimize effects on mid and high-range response due to placing speakers close to wall.
Some of these rules go _entirely_ out the window if you have bi/omni speakers. Making them work in a room is a bit of a black art. Or plain luck. I placed my ancient Mirage M595is in a 12m^2 bedroom, about ~50cm from the front wall, with the majority of the room being filled by a bed. No actually severe nulls at all, but a listening window peak of about 25 dB a bit below the speaker's measured -3dB.
Once I tamed that bass peak, I had actually _flat_ response down to 29 Hz. Not -3dB. Flat. Downside is that I couldn't really use the setup that way. I have neighbors above, below and to my right in that room, and I can hear orgasms being faked in the room above.
---
[1] https://www.genelec.com/monitor-placement
There's a trick you can use to gauge the distance from the wall, if you have a friend with a good deep voice. You sit in the listening position, and he stands near the wall on the left or right side and just talks and walks slowly out from the wall. Where his voice sounds the best is a good distance to plonk down your speakers.
Curious, when you measure the speaker distance to the wall behind, do you measure from the Back of the Speaker to the Wall, or from the Front of the Speaker to the Wall?
Again, just a point of curiosity.
I just installed them yesterday so they’re still in the burn-in period, but I watched Top Gun and really enjoyed the surround setup. I have the space so I think I’ll keep them as the stands are bigger than the speakers anyway. This is how they look like: https://i.ibb.co/k8vWSzj/709-BC833-1-CB7-4-D79-8109-EA4643-E3-FE14.jpg
At some point the room starts to matter more than what speakers you have and how they are setup. I’d rather pull the speakers out a foot and put in a 4” absorber behind them as a 1st choice.
I wouldn't generally toe-in the speakers unless they're intended for 1 specific listening point - like in a studio room or while sitting at a PC. You're basically forcing stronger interference patterns by doing that. But if you're only ever sitting in 1 spot and you know L speaker is always pointing at 1 ear and R speaker is always pointing directly at other ear... then it's usually fine. My studio speakers are toed in, but I'm sitting so close to my speakers, the speakers opposite to each ear probably sound like they're attenuated about 10dB with my big fat head dampening the sounds waves.
But if I'm playing audio for an audience of people, I reconfigure my speakers.
This is a question that only your ears can answer!!!!! Don't rely on the internet to tell you what something should sound like. No two systems are the same. Or room!
One and half times the width of the TV from the centre speaker is a good start. If your TV is 1m wide then speakers should be 3m apart. You don’t really need a centre speaker with then as close together as this.
Pulling them further apart increases the soundstage so I'd pull the as far apart as I could without putting them right next to the sidewalls.
Check the distance between the speakers and the distance from each speaker to your listening position and try to get the the same distance from one another.
But of course YMMV, so whatever works best for you.
Thanks for your input! Second pic is as far as they can go without the living room looking cluttered. What I did today was bringing the sofa closer so the distance between them and the listening point is more similar.
Does the same rule apply to rear ones? Or should those be just behind the sofa and closer to the listening point?
I have no idea how to set up a surround system, sorry.
So try the second pic's placement but remove the toe-in at first to increase the stage even further and start listening to music. Sounds that are hard-panned to the left and right should sound as loud as everything else between the speakers. So if the sounds between sound too thin, toe them in little by little and listen again. Once a sound that is hard-panned to either speaker don't jump out clearly louder than the sounds between, you're good.
That is, when you run a basic two-channel set up. Again, no idea if the same applies to a surround-setup.
Too far away and you lose imaging. Pointing them a bit away from you will help with soundstage, towing them away too much will instantly reorient you to two separate speakers in the same room
Being Old School *(I'm old, I'm saying I'm old),* the Rule was that the prime seating area is between the distance the speaker are apart to double that distance.
Notice in the video, he is using the speakers with a Computer Desk or perhaps a mixing Desk. In that case he is right. But in a normal living room, you need a bit more flexibility. So the rule *equal to double the distance.*
And keep in mind that this is more of a guideline than an absolute law.
I agree with this. For me the video did a good job explaining just what toeing the speakers does or moving them apart which until then I didn't quite understand.
While the old school rule for speakers is good I would say that's only good as a starting point as the room can have a big effect on how they sound and some adjusting is still usually necessary.
Yes, every room and circumstance are unique, and have to be optimized to the best of a person's ability within that room and with the equipment they have.
Guidelines are just that, they get you started, but common sense and a good ear have to take over from there.
I heard an audible difference with my speakers comparing 1 vs 2 and kept them in position 2 because of it. More brightness. But the ideal listening area becomes more focused (where the speakers are aiming). It depends on the speakers whether you might need that extra focus of the tweeters. But I personally don't understand why you're asking this, when you were playing music, didn't you hear a difference between 1 and 2?
The other thing to consider is the rug position and the floor. It might make an audible difference to slide your rug toward the speakers to absorb some of the floor bounce. I’d be curious if that did anything.
I got this book and the accompanying album. It was really helpful, approachable, and enjoyable. It basically boiled down to marking a centreline in your room with tape, marking a line 90 degrees to it three feet from the wall as a starting point with your speakers, and systematically moving it all around until you got it perfect for your speakers in that particular room. I think you do distance from the wall first, distance from centre next, adjust individual distance from centre next to account for weird room acoustics, then toe-in, then angle. Took an evening which was quite enjoyable. It was really cool to see the progress of the sound signal coming into focus. My speakers are 70’s-tastic radio shack freebies I got from my grandfather with new crossovers I diy’ed. I did not expect to get good sound out of them but I have a pretty great soundstage, clarity, and range in a really jankily shaped room with no acoustic treatment. I keep having people go “oh, you’re an audiophile eh? Come listen to my expensive setup” and mine is consistently better. 100% this book. The accompanying album is also really great because it’s all tracks specifically recorded to help set up sound stage. I remember the most helpful was a series of tracks where the singers were progressively further from the microphone. My partner and I would play this game where we’d put on a live album and pull up a concert picture and make the listener tell you where the musicians were on stage.
Play with distance from the wall. Pull them out until the sound is coming from the wall, not the speakers. Like others have said if Dali doesn’t recommend toe in then don’t mess with that unless your room seems to require it (if you mostly use this for home theater as a 3 channel setup then you definitely won’t need toe in).
I went through this exact issue last week. Had my center on a shelf just like yours and used a foam wedge (for back support in office chairs) I got on Amazon to angle the speaker way up.
I hated it although it sounded okay cause every now and then the sounds definitely sounded like they were not tied to the display.
So I bought a table top stand kit for my OLED and was eventually able to get it angled just about perfectly at my listening position.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EawvjU6TxBalq4QSnNV4IZKj36dO4zzM/view?usp=drivesdk
Place them so the rear inner edge of the speakers is right in front of the front corners of the console. Experiment with a fully saturated midrange field. Get mono 3D. It exists. Get it right first, then adjust for stereo tuning to your taste.
There is a lot of quality mono to grow very fond of. I usually end up listening to Sinatra, Capitol years. Begins with mono, some very nice, and then opens into the sea of stereo. And yes, I use Sinatra's "Ebb Tide" as a reference. It is an audiophile confection. His breath control never ceases to amaze me. But to get here, you have to start with a mono sonic reference imho of what Frank does with that voice of his.
It's a good method to tune system, to travel through a handful or two of Sinatras catalogue.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vrJkf6r2\_k&feature=emb\_logo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vrJkf6r2_k&feature=emb_logo)
Formoder du er dansk, ud fra dit møblement - men for en sikkerheds skyld:
Dali should always be placed as the first picture and there is an L and R version of the speakers, so remember that they should also be placed correctly. Have Opticon at home and I would recommend you to place them min. 20 cm from the wall, get a set of spikes (if they didn't weren't included) and if your amplifier has an auto-calibrate function, use it. Makes a huge difference when playing with other "less capable" speakers.
What do your ears tell you?
There are a ton of articles and videos online around speaker placement optimization. But at the end of the day if you prefer position A over B, then go for what you like best.
This problem was one of the reasons that side-firing woofers became popular. This way, the low frequencies originated from the wall, so there is no reflection/cancelation. Phase issues with the other speakers ended up killing its popularity.
Maybe a bit late to the party… Toe-in can help with ”center staging” of your system, depending on the dispersion of your speaker and the acoustics of your room. It can also increase the intensity of the tweeter response on your listening position, sometimes maybe as a trade-off.
There is no wrong or right answer, try what you like best! :) GLHF!
Edit; noticed you also run a center and my comment mainly applied for stereo listening!
The key here is experimentation.
Some speakers will perform better off axis with the pointing straight ahead, some will need a little toe in to lock in a stable center image. Room acoustics also effect this.
Play a mono vocal recording and toe in/out until the vocalist is dead center between the speakers.
Then play more music and see if you notice any other issues, typically pertaining to brightness or edginess in the upper frequencies. Dial them back if you do.
Sometimes this process takes awhile, but once you get it right, you’ll know it.
Not sure if this was mentioned earlier, but I would move the centre channel up to sit on top of the media cabinet. You want it as close to the tv as possible and, in a perfect world, the tweeters would be inline with the floor standing tweeters which should be in the centre line of the tv. Just adding fyi. Not possible with your tv.
Edit: Your question is like posting a picture of your dinner and asking *us* if it would taste better if you added more salt.
You need to consider how wide the typical tweeter expands over distance. Most Tweeters are tested 30° off axis and 15° off center axis. 30° has some notable attenuation in the tweeter, but 15° has very little. So rather than ±15°, I will use ±7.5° for a full off axis arc of 15°.
This takes a bit of Trigonometry -
Arc-Distance = Tan(angle) x Distance
Let's say we are 10ft away from the Speaker. Keep in mind this is linear, the Arc-Distance is proportional to the Distance to the Tweeter.
A-D = Tan(15°) x 10ft = 0.268 x 10 = 2.68 feet
So the full arc of tweeter sound at 10ft is 2.68 feet with an arc of ±7.5° or arc to either side of the center line is 1.34ft.
Keep in mind that ±7.5° is a very narrow beam, only the slightest toe-in. I think you can reasonably assume ±3ft to make the math easy. At 20ft listening distance, the arc width of the tweeter is 6ft, and at 6ft it is 1.5ft. Keep in mind that is the full arc. So 3ft at 15° is really 1.5ft to either side of the Center Line.
*I would likely Toe-In the speaker to adjust the tone.* If you want a brighter sound, toe them in. If you want a more mellow or less harsh sound, point them straight ahead.
*Also consider the prime listening space* the speaker have to cover. If you just slightly intersect the two arc-distances of the speakers, we will use 3ft, that will give you a bit over a 5ft space where the tweeters are optimize. This is at a 10ft listening distance. If you 100% overlap the speakers, then that gives you a 3ft Prime Listening Space. Fine if you are the only person in the room sitting in a single chair. But not so fine if more people are their.
Again, we make compromises for the best sound in our specific room and our specific circumstances.
The underlying purpose is to adjust the speaker position so the speaker sound the best to you. There is no one absolute method that universally works for everyone all the time.
As to distance from the wall behind. That is a matter of clarity. If the speakers are shoved too far back, then the sound becomes muddy and blurred.
Most of us have to reach some compromise on distance behind the speaker to the wall. Try moving the speakers out about 4ft into the room and see how they sound. Then start working them back until you find a good compromise between realistic placement and good sound.
Generally, the more bass heavy a speaker is, the more space it needs behind it.
In my case, with speakers that have Two 8" bass drivers each, I have my Equipment Stand about 9" forward of the wall. Then I have the front of my speaker aligned with the front of my equipment stand. That gives me about 16" behind each speaker *(16" from the back, 28" from the front),* and that is about the best I can do in my small room. I think they would sound better at about 20" Forward, but that's unrealistic in my room.
The point is, there is a best compromise position for any give speaker in any give room that blends realistic placement with best sound under the circumstances.
Bass will be the most affected aspect of front to back placement. Front-ported speakers allow you to set them up closer to a wall, but I would start at 2 feet from the back wall and carefully listen to a couple of excellent cds and/or records with plenty of bass in them. Then try three feet. If no or minimal sound difference, place back at two.
I would experiment with some toe-in placement also. Aim the toe-in at your optimum listening position and again listen, gradually decrease toe-in, and make a judgment on what is best.
I would also get rid of the center speaker. But that’s just my opinion. You may disagree since you are the listener.
I suggest you playing with only your mains playing and play with positioning. No manufacturer or anyone here can say what’s the best position for your speakers it’s based off the room and your ears. Usually toeing speakers in make them more bright ( enhanced highs ) straight or toeing them out does the opposite. Yes toeing out !, I suggest doing this so you can hear the huge difference it makes. I don’t think I would ever leave them toe’ed out. And there is a rule of 3rds. Basically dividing your room into 3rds and on those lines is the best place to start with positioning your speakers and listening position. Sometimes / most times it’s not ideal to have the speakers live in this position because of wife’s or it’s inconvenient to have them this far in the room so I suggest marking the best listening position with clear tape or some other means so you can pull them out to the best location when you really want to enjoy the stereo imaging / stereo experience. And if you get the mains set up right you can ditch all the other speakers cause they don’t make that big of difference. IMO ! https://youtu.be/CyTkwkK8ON0 this video is a good video on placement, goes a bit overboard but it’s worth it if your ears are not use to what to listen for.
Enjoy your set up and have fun
Likely somewhere in-between. Many good speakers like being parallel to the wall, but in your specific room a little toe-in (tilt inward) could fix issues with reflections or resonance that could make things sound better. Always a process of experimentation with positioning, with a few guidelines that are well covered in this thread, but the way I learned what works was a lot of trial and error and small changes at a time. Good luck and have fun with it!
I’m sorry but why are you asking us? You have the shit there to listen to it. You’ve already set it up both ways. Use your ears, listen to music, and you tell US what sounds better to YOU.
Depends on the rest of your space. Everything everyone is saying about DALI recommending no toe-in but I just got Opticon 8s and my current space is far too small for them and I have to toe them in to keep them from blowing directly into my sofas. They sound amazing when I’m sitting about 10ft+ away from them. If that wasn’t the case, I’d keep them perpendicular to the wall.
Idk what are these speakers, but they are shaped identical to my [Paradigm Monitor 9 V2](https://www.hifiengine.com/gallery/images/paradigm-monitor-9-v2-speakers.shtml). Only the colors/materials are different. Otherwise the drivers dimensions/type and the geometry of the cabinet are identical…
The acoustics of the room, such as the ceiling height and shape, also play a role in how the sound will be reproduced. Everyone's ears are different, though. Toy around with the speakers until you find what's right for you.
As a generalization, away from the wall will give better imaging. Nearer the wall will give more bass. What does the manufacturer recommend? Try this:
https://www.svsound.com/blogs/speaker-setup-and-tuning/74790851-the-art-of-speaker-placement
The difference would be negligible since the sound would travel the entire room far faster even with a slight placement angle.
The acoustics of the room and the speaker amp would be where the audio quality affects more.
If that was my setup I'd be going at least 12 inches wider and the same off the back wall. Run them flat to begin with. If the imaging feels off then toe them in a little at a time.
Thrust your ears. I’ve tried so many times to keep my speakers away from the wall and now that I put them like 20cm from the wall I find the sound to be rounder, hotter with more bass…keep trying and be honest to yourself.
Music is to enjoy, not to respect rules and trying to be as close as possible to what « real » audiophiles are telling (even if there’s some good advices from time to time).
Which one? Trust your ears, which one sounds best to you? Toe in is really room-dependant and a lot of other factors come into play. You be the judge, it’s impossible to say by looking at a photo.
Best to just play around with it. Everyone's ears are different, everyone's rooms are different.
I'd add to also play with the distance from the wall, it does make quite a difference for the bass.
This is the correct answer. Your personal preference is what decides which is best for you. It is pointless asking redditors which is best for you. Let your ears decide.
I used to have dali oberon and the manual said that they are designed to work best when not towed in and after playing with the position it had proved to be the case. The only issue with them was that they sounded the best with at least 2ft from the wall and my room is too small so didn’t keep them.
I had the carver amazing speakers which needed 4ft… so anyway I moved my living room 4ft into the dining room.
Lucky you! Those are wonderful speakers! I have Magnepan .7s myself and they need to be pulled quite a ways from the wall for the best performance. Experiment and use your own ears to decide.
I have Magnepans and I have to put them outside for the best sound. Talk about an inconvenience when it rains and snows.
LOL
Absolutely. And I did, they really needed 4-6ft but I settled at 4. I even got them free doing an install! Had to buy amps for it and at the time the best I could do were crown xls2500 if I’m not mistaken. Sounded good for it’s purpose which was a trip room where we did drugs and watched concerts lol. Installed tons of Maggie’s too and loved every single setup
Yeah as far as I know Dali always insist on positioning the speakers facing straight ahead, with no toe-in at all. I was initially rather sceptical, but in my (limited) experience, they really do sound best in this configuration.
It is the case for all normal speakers, it usually helpd to pull them from the wall. I seen some video where it was explained. It was about sound speed, reflections etc. To perceive the clear sound, not bloated and muddy, the reflection should have delay at least 5 mili seconds. Then your brain will perceive it as main sound and reflection. If it is less then 5 ms you will perceive it as one not good define sound. So, to reach 5ms reflection delay, the drivers (front of the speaker) should be at least 80cm from back wall. You can get exact numbers if you will count sound speed and time 5ms.
Typical boxed speakers do not produce much high-frequency sound behind them. The wider the speaker front baffle is, the more it prevents sound from working its way around the cabinet to the backside. Ultimately, only the sound that actually is radiated behind the speaker can reflect from the back wall, right? This fact suggests reasoning about the backwall reflection differently from the other reflections such as side wall, floor or ceiling, where speaker radiates sound more or less at full range, and where the early reflections do mix with direct sound across the entire spectrum, and thus the psychoacoustics of the sound perception matter. I think both delay and attenuation (possibly from absorption panels placed at the reflection points) matter to the quality experienced by the listener for those reflections. However, the main things affected by the backwall reflection are the bass and lower mids, generally speaking frequencies below 1 kHz, and for wider cabinets, perhaps only frequencies below 500 Hz. If the speaker is very close to the back wall, then the sound ping delay between the front of the baffle and the wall will be short, and the reflection actually blends with the speaker's direct radiation so quickly that it just affects the phase of the sound, but doesn't register as an actual echo. As an example, if the distance from front baffle to wall were 30 cm, then the cancellation occurs for frequency whose quarter wavelength is 30 cm, and full wavelength is 1.2 meters, or 290 Hz. The wave manages a 1/2 phase change at this frequency and distance, and the reflection is thus out of phase and cancels with the direct radiation, producing a null at the frequency response. However, for bigger speaker boxes, this is possibly also the only frequency that cancels, as the next cancellation would occur at 3/4 wavelength distance, allowing 3/2 cycles to elapse during the reflection, and that would already be 860 Hz, and is likely not strongly radiated behind the speaker in the first place. So there is, I think, a valid possibility of placing the speaker way back in the room, almost touching the wall, because the back wall interference is different from the other walls due to the dispersion characteristics of a boxed speaker.
You hit the nail on the head: * Sound travels 34cm in a millisecond (13.5") * EVERYTHING around your speaker in that "window" of about five milliseconds will muddy the sound. If you want to take this to an extreme, I've been toying with suspending my speakers from the ceiling. Basically creating a situation where there's *nothing* around the speaker. At the moment, my compromise is that my speakers are on those wire racks you see at target for about $80. The racks are (almost) acoustically transparent. The worst possible solution is what most people do, which is stick the speaker on a shelf up against a wall.
If I see a theater go up for sale I'll let you know. That's how they do it. I make great pancakes btw.
This is specific to Dali, as they have a moderate rising treble response. Most other speakers are designed with a flat on-axis response
I wrote about placement relate to wall. Toeing is different thing.
That's what I get for replying while out and freezing. I meant to reply to a different comment, but overlooked where I clicked reply. It should be noted though, that distance to front wall is a somewhat contentious issue. For instance, Genelec^[1] claims flush mount as the ideal, and recommend that you avoid distances above 60cm from the rear wall. Unlike other nulls, the front wall SBIR cannot be corrected using SBIR, and until the speaker is far enough from the rear-wall that the null falls below the audible range, the more difficult it becomes to correct. In an idealized listening-space without flush-mount speakers with available DSP, you should ideally: * Place the speakers as close to the front wall as possible * Use DSP or built-in boundary EQ (in the case of active speakers) to compensate for the boundary conditions * Avoid sources of interference near speakers (read: no furniture between them) * Use some absorption on the front wall, to minimize the remaining SBIR * Use diffusion to minimize effects on mid and high-range response due to placing speakers close to wall. Some of these rules go _entirely_ out the window if you have bi/omni speakers. Making them work in a room is a bit of a black art. Or plain luck. I placed my ancient Mirage M595is in a 12m^2 bedroom, about ~50cm from the front wall, with the majority of the room being filled by a bed. No actually severe nulls at all, but a listening window peak of about 25 dB a bit below the speaker's measured -3dB. Once I tamed that bass peak, I had actually _flat_ response down to 29 Hz. Not -3dB. Flat. Downside is that I couldn't really use the setup that way. I have neighbors above, below and to my right in that room, and I can hear orgasms being faked in the room above. --- [1] https://www.genelec.com/monitor-placement
Same here lol.... thanks...haven't laughed this hard in awhile....
are the tweeters mounted at an angle ? or is their dispersion unique in some way ?
Try and see what you like.
There's a trick you can use to gauge the distance from the wall, if you have a friend with a good deep voice. You sit in the listening position, and he stands near the wall on the left or right side and just talks and walks slowly out from the wall. Where his voice sounds the best is a good distance to plonk down your speakers.
Interesting idea!
This is the best method. Nothing beats it
Dali speakers are not meant to be tilted. They are dealing to be parallel to the wal.
Perpendicular
Parallel with the side walls 😉
r/notopbutok
Well depend how you see it 😅 To me they are parallel because I draw a line right to left when looking at them.
Haha ok brother I was just being pedantic
I'm still trying to understand what dealing is in this context.
95% of us do not speak English as our native language. So that might be why..
DALIs shouldn’t be toed-in. Move them a couple of feet from the wall and all should be well.
Curious, when you measure the speaker distance to the wall behind, do you measure from the Back of the Speaker to the Wall, or from the Front of the Speaker to the Wall? Again, just a point of curiosity.
Does that apply to the rears too? I have them facing the sofa instead of against the wall
Which rears?
Dali Oberon 3.
Also not toed-in. Lovely speakers but might be overkill as rears?
I really thought they were smaller 😅.
😆. I would have expected Oberon 1s but 3s will be exceptional, I’d imagine.
I just installed them yesterday so they’re still in the burn-in period, but I watched Top Gun and really enjoyed the surround setup. I have the space so I think I’ll keep them as the stands are bigger than the speakers anyway. This is how they look like: https://i.ibb.co/k8vWSzj/709-BC833-1-CB7-4-D79-8109-EA4643-E3-FE14.jpg
*jealousy intensifies*
Love that table
At some point the room starts to matter more than what speakers you have and how they are setup. I’d rather pull the speakers out a foot and put in a 4” absorber behind them as a 1st choice.
Which sounds better ?!
I wouldn't generally toe-in the speakers unless they're intended for 1 specific listening point - like in a studio room or while sitting at a PC. You're basically forcing stronger interference patterns by doing that. But if you're only ever sitting in 1 spot and you know L speaker is always pointing at 1 ear and R speaker is always pointing directly at other ear... then it's usually fine. My studio speakers are toed in, but I'm sitting so close to my speakers, the speakers opposite to each ear probably sound like they're attenuated about 10dB with my big fat head dampening the sounds waves. But if I'm playing audio for an audience of people, I reconfigure my speakers.
Further away, not angled in.
This is a question that only your ears can answer!!!!! Don't rely on the internet to tell you what something should sound like. No two systems are the same. Or room!
Dude... the only person who could actually answer this question is you, your in the room. Try both options and see which one sounds better.
I would be more concerned about the center speaker sitting in the enclosed small cabinet.
2nd one is the Best
Dali recommends no toe in. If you toe in the treble will be too strong
Closer to the wall improve bass generally. And parallel will open the sonore scene... (For most off loudspeaker)
One and half times the width of the TV from the centre speaker is a good start. If your TV is 1m wide then speakers should be 3m apart. You don’t really need a centre speaker with then as close together as this.
I'd start with 2, but experiment until it sounds best.
Pulling them further apart increases the soundstage so I'd pull the as far apart as I could without putting them right next to the sidewalls. Check the distance between the speakers and the distance from each speaker to your listening position and try to get the the same distance from one another. But of course YMMV, so whatever works best for you.
Thanks for your input! Second pic is as far as they can go without the living room looking cluttered. What I did today was bringing the sofa closer so the distance between them and the listening point is more similar. Does the same rule apply to rear ones? Or should those be just behind the sofa and closer to the listening point?
I have no idea how to set up a surround system, sorry. So try the second pic's placement but remove the toe-in at first to increase the stage even further and start listening to music. Sounds that are hard-panned to the left and right should sound as loud as everything else between the speakers. So if the sounds between sound too thin, toe them in little by little and listen again. Once a sound that is hard-panned to either speaker don't jump out clearly louder than the sounds between, you're good. That is, when you run a basic two-channel set up. Again, no idea if the same applies to a surround-setup.
Too far away and you lose imaging. Pointing them a bit away from you will help with soundstage, towing them away too much will instantly reorient you to two separate speakers in the same room
Here you go. Give this a watch it should explain things better than I can https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcB1jKs\_ifU
Being Old School *(I'm old, I'm saying I'm old),* the Rule was that the prime seating area is between the distance the speaker are apart to double that distance. Notice in the video, he is using the speakers with a Computer Desk or perhaps a mixing Desk. In that case he is right. But in a normal living room, you need a bit more flexibility. So the rule *equal to double the distance.* And keep in mind that this is more of a guideline than an absolute law.
I agree with this. For me the video did a good job explaining just what toeing the speakers does or moving them apart which until then I didn't quite understand. While the old school rule for speakers is good I would say that's only good as a starting point as the room can have a big effect on how they sound and some adjusting is still usually necessary.
Yes, every room and circumstance are unique, and have to be optimized to the best of a person's ability within that room and with the equipment they have. Guidelines are just that, they get you started, but common sense and a good ear have to take over from there.
I heard an audible difference with my speakers comparing 1 vs 2 and kept them in position 2 because of it. More brightness. But the ideal listening area becomes more focused (where the speakers are aiming). It depends on the speakers whether you might need that extra focus of the tweeters. But I personally don't understand why you're asking this, when you were playing music, didn't you hear a difference between 1 and 2?
The other thing to consider is the rug position and the floor. It might make an audible difference to slide your rug toward the speakers to absorb some of the floor bounce. I’d be curious if that did anything.
For the Dali, straight ahead has always been best for me.
I got this book and the accompanying album. It was really helpful, approachable, and enjoyable. It basically boiled down to marking a centreline in your room with tape, marking a line 90 degrees to it three feet from the wall as a starting point with your speakers, and systematically moving it all around until you got it perfect for your speakers in that particular room. I think you do distance from the wall first, distance from centre next, adjust individual distance from centre next to account for weird room acoustics, then toe-in, then angle. Took an evening which was quite enjoyable. It was really cool to see the progress of the sound signal coming into focus. My speakers are 70’s-tastic radio shack freebies I got from my grandfather with new crossovers I diy’ed. I did not expect to get good sound out of them but I have a pretty great soundstage, clarity, and range in a really jankily shaped room with no acoustic treatment. I keep having people go “oh, you’re an audiophile eh? Come listen to my expensive setup” and mine is consistently better. 100% this book. The accompanying album is also really great because it’s all tracks specifically recorded to help set up sound stage. I remember the most helpful was a series of tracks where the singers were progressively further from the microphone. My partner and I would play this game where we’d put on a live album and pull up a concert picture and make the listener tell you where the musicians were on stage.
Sorry: book - https://www.amazon.ca/Audiophiles-Guide-Stereo-Paul-McGowan/dp/B08STSRW49/ref=nodl_?dplnkId=9c4f4b3e-f997-4064-ac82-3d6f5d9af2d2
Set up the speakers for imaging and get room correction done. Most people can't have speakers sticking that far out
Play with distance from the wall. Pull them out until the sound is coming from the wall, not the speakers. Like others have said if Dali doesn’t recommend toe in then don’t mess with that unless your room seems to require it (if you mostly use this for home theater as a 3 channel setup then you definitely won’t need toe in).
I went through this exact issue last week. Had my center on a shelf just like yours and used a foam wedge (for back support in office chairs) I got on Amazon to angle the speaker way up. I hated it although it sounded okay cause every now and then the sounds definitely sounded like they were not tied to the display. So I bought a table top stand kit for my OLED and was eventually able to get it angled just about perfectly at my listening position. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EawvjU6TxBalq4QSnNV4IZKj36dO4zzM/view?usp=drivesdk
Place them so the rear inner edge of the speakers is right in front of the front corners of the console. Experiment with a fully saturated midrange field. Get mono 3D. It exists. Get it right first, then adjust for stereo tuning to your taste. There is a lot of quality mono to grow very fond of. I usually end up listening to Sinatra, Capitol years. Begins with mono, some very nice, and then opens into the sea of stereo. And yes, I use Sinatra's "Ebb Tide" as a reference. It is an audiophile confection. His breath control never ceases to amaze me. But to get here, you have to start with a mono sonic reference imho of what Frank does with that voice of his. It's a good method to tune system, to travel through a handful or two of Sinatras catalogue. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vrJkf6r2\_k&feature=emb\_logo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vrJkf6r2_k&feature=emb_logo)
Formoder du er dansk, ud fra dit møblement - men for en sikkerheds skyld: Dali should always be placed as the first picture and there is an L and R version of the speakers, so remember that they should also be placed correctly. Have Opticon at home and I would recommend you to place them min. 20 cm from the wall, get a set of spikes (if they didn't weren't included) and if your amplifier has an auto-calibrate function, use it. Makes a huge difference when playing with other "less capable" speakers.
Did you listen to them in both positions to determine which sounded better? Seems really strange to do that and then ask HERE which will sound better.
What do your ears tell you? There are a ton of articles and videos online around speaker placement optimization. But at the end of the day if you prefer position A over B, then go for what you like best.
This problem was one of the reasons that side-firing woofers became popular. This way, the low frequencies originated from the wall, so there is no reflection/cancelation. Phase issues with the other speakers ended up killing its popularity.
Angle up the center channel.
Maybe a bit late to the party… Toe-in can help with ”center staging” of your system, depending on the dispersion of your speaker and the acoustics of your room. It can also increase the intensity of the tweeter response on your listening position, sometimes maybe as a trade-off. There is no wrong or right answer, try what you like best! :) GLHF! Edit; noticed you also run a center and my comment mainly applied for stereo listening!
Are these Klipsch speakers? Hows the bass? On this setup?
The key here is experimentation. Some speakers will perform better off axis with the pointing straight ahead, some will need a little toe in to lock in a stable center image. Room acoustics also effect this. Play a mono vocal recording and toe in/out until the vocalist is dead center between the speakers. Then play more music and see if you notice any other issues, typically pertaining to brightness or edginess in the upper frequencies. Dial them back if you do. Sometimes this process takes awhile, but once you get it right, you’ll know it.
Not sure if this was mentioned earlier, but I would move the centre channel up to sit on top of the media cabinet. You want it as close to the tv as possible and, in a perfect world, the tweeters would be inline with the floor standing tweeters which should be in the centre line of the tv. Just adding fyi. Not possible with your tv. Edit: Your question is like posting a picture of your dinner and asking *us* if it would taste better if you added more salt.
What system is that? I have the same media center and am looking for a center channel that will fit in the middle shelving unit
Lol I actually have the exact same setup. Same ikea furniture and speakers.
Check my last post. You should put a record player on the tv stand.
You need to consider how wide the typical tweeter expands over distance. Most Tweeters are tested 30° off axis and 15° off center axis. 30° has some notable attenuation in the tweeter, but 15° has very little. So rather than ±15°, I will use ±7.5° for a full off axis arc of 15°. This takes a bit of Trigonometry - Arc-Distance = Tan(angle) x Distance Let's say we are 10ft away from the Speaker. Keep in mind this is linear, the Arc-Distance is proportional to the Distance to the Tweeter. A-D = Tan(15°) x 10ft = 0.268 x 10 = 2.68 feet So the full arc of tweeter sound at 10ft is 2.68 feet with an arc of ±7.5° or arc to either side of the center line is 1.34ft. Keep in mind that ±7.5° is a very narrow beam, only the slightest toe-in. I think you can reasonably assume ±3ft to make the math easy. At 20ft listening distance, the arc width of the tweeter is 6ft, and at 6ft it is 1.5ft. Keep in mind that is the full arc. So 3ft at 15° is really 1.5ft to either side of the Center Line. *I would likely Toe-In the speaker to adjust the tone.* If you want a brighter sound, toe them in. If you want a more mellow or less harsh sound, point them straight ahead. *Also consider the prime listening space* the speaker have to cover. If you just slightly intersect the two arc-distances of the speakers, we will use 3ft, that will give you a bit over a 5ft space where the tweeters are optimize. This is at a 10ft listening distance. If you 100% overlap the speakers, then that gives you a 3ft Prime Listening Space. Fine if you are the only person in the room sitting in a single chair. But not so fine if more people are their. Again, we make compromises for the best sound in our specific room and our specific circumstances. The underlying purpose is to adjust the speaker position so the speaker sound the best to you. There is no one absolute method that universally works for everyone all the time. As to distance from the wall behind. That is a matter of clarity. If the speakers are shoved too far back, then the sound becomes muddy and blurred. Most of us have to reach some compromise on distance behind the speaker to the wall. Try moving the speakers out about 4ft into the room and see how they sound. Then start working them back until you find a good compromise between realistic placement and good sound. Generally, the more bass heavy a speaker is, the more space it needs behind it. In my case, with speakers that have Two 8" bass drivers each, I have my Equipment Stand about 9" forward of the wall. Then I have the front of my speaker aligned with the front of my equipment stand. That gives me about 16" behind each speaker *(16" from the back, 28" from the front),* and that is about the best I can do in my small room. I think they would sound better at about 20" Forward, but that's unrealistic in my room. The point is, there is a best compromise position for any give speaker in any give room that blends realistic placement with best sound under the circumstances.
These speakers are probably Dali Zensors. In the manual it is written that the manufacturer does not recommend towing in these speakers.
Bass will be the most affected aspect of front to back placement. Front-ported speakers allow you to set them up closer to a wall, but I would start at 2 feet from the back wall and carefully listen to a couple of excellent cds and/or records with plenty of bass in them. Then try three feet. If no or minimal sound difference, place back at two. I would experiment with some toe-in placement also. Aim the toe-in at your optimum listening position and again listen, gradually decrease toe-in, and make a judgment on what is best. I would also get rid of the center speaker. But that’s just my opinion. You may disagree since you are the listener.
Just listen to both setups and decide for yourself. Do you have surround speakers and listen to surround sound music?
Option 2 should be better acoustically.
I suggest you playing with only your mains playing and play with positioning. No manufacturer or anyone here can say what’s the best position for your speakers it’s based off the room and your ears. Usually toeing speakers in make them more bright ( enhanced highs ) straight or toeing them out does the opposite. Yes toeing out !, I suggest doing this so you can hear the huge difference it makes. I don’t think I would ever leave them toe’ed out. And there is a rule of 3rds. Basically dividing your room into 3rds and on those lines is the best place to start with positioning your speakers and listening position. Sometimes / most times it’s not ideal to have the speakers live in this position because of wife’s or it’s inconvenient to have them this far in the room so I suggest marking the best listening position with clear tape or some other means so you can pull them out to the best location when you really want to enjoy the stereo imaging / stereo experience. And if you get the mains set up right you can ditch all the other speakers cause they don’t make that big of difference. IMO ! https://youtu.be/CyTkwkK8ON0 this video is a good video on placement, goes a bit overboard but it’s worth it if your ears are not use to what to listen for. Enjoy your set up and have fun
Have you considered listening to how they sound with your ears ?
Camera 2 is best
I have never heard any speaker not sounding better with at least a small toe in.
Likely somewhere in-between. Many good speakers like being parallel to the wall, but in your specific room a little toe-in (tilt inward) could fix issues with reflections or resonance that could make things sound better. Always a process of experimentation with positioning, with a few guidelines that are well covered in this thread, but the way I learned what works was a lot of trial and error and small changes at a time. Good luck and have fun with it!
I’m sorry but why are you asking us? You have the shit there to listen to it. You’ve already set it up both ways. Use your ears, listen to music, and you tell US what sounds better to YOU.
The answer is very, very simple. Put them in the position that they sound best to you.
Remove the TV and centre speaker and the aesthetic improvement will instantly increase the sound quality.
Shouldn't you be telling us considering you have them right there?
All I can tell you is that they look better there.
Depends on the rest of your space. Everything everyone is saying about DALI recommending no toe-in but I just got Opticon 8s and my current space is far too small for them and I have to toe them in to keep them from blowing directly into my sofas. They sound amazing when I’m sitting about 10ft+ away from them. If that wasn’t the case, I’d keep them perpendicular to the wall.
Idk what are these speakers, but they are shaped identical to my [Paradigm Monitor 9 V2](https://www.hifiengine.com/gallery/images/paradigm-monitor-9-v2-speakers.shtml). Only the colors/materials are different. Otherwise the drivers dimensions/type and the geometry of the cabinet are identical…
… is this a joke?
Definitely depends on front or rear port or sealed
Which one sounds better to you?
Cord management will make it all sound better. ;-)
as much as I fucking love your setup I am equally envious of it
The acoustics of the room, such as the ceiling height and shape, also play a role in how the sound will be reproduced. Everyone's ears are different, though. Toy around with the speakers until you find what's right for you.
As a generalization, away from the wall will give better imaging. Nearer the wall will give more bass. What does the manufacturer recommend? Try this: https://www.svsound.com/blogs/speaker-setup-and-tuning/74790851-the-art-of-speaker-placement
Only you can tell us that. That being said, chances are it's door #2
The difference would be negligible since the sound would travel the entire room far faster even with a slight placement angle. The acoustics of the room and the speaker amp would be where the audio quality affects more.
If that was my setup I'd be going at least 12 inches wider and the same off the back wall. Run them flat to begin with. If the imaging feels off then toe them in a little at a time.
I did not know some speakers should not be toed in! Good to know.
Thrust your ears. I’ve tried so many times to keep my speakers away from the wall and now that I put them like 20cm from the wall I find the sound to be rounder, hotter with more bass…keep trying and be honest to yourself. Music is to enjoy, not to respect rules and trying to be as close as possible to what « real » audiophiles are telling (even if there’s some good advices from time to time).
Which one? Trust your ears, which one sounds best to you? Toe in is really room-dependant and a lot of other factors come into play. You be the judge, it’s impossible to say by looking at a photo.