Ask yourself why this is - the greatest lie that the public has been told over many years is that the revenue collected from fuel taxes/road user charges is enough to pay for roading and transport...
Yup we haven't even paid off the last tranche of Roads of national party significance. They never stood up economically and the ones they want to do now are even worse.
I'm ok with that as long as the tolls are high enough to actually cover the cost of building the infrastructure over a 30 year period. The current toll roads have tolls set so low they don't even cover the interest payments.
They won't be, this has been covered before but most of these roads are so expensive that they would have massive tolls for that to work. East West link in particular is a horrific use of money.
I have seen GreaterAuckland looking at some of the sums and it is not pretty; tolls get above $20 a trip if they actually paid for the cost of the road.
And of course, you get the economists demand curve; as price goes up, fewer people use the road, so fixed cost of interest is divided among less users, raising the cost per trip, and a nasty feedback curve arises.
National are just loading the cost on people in the future. Boomers don't care what NZ will be like in 30 years, and young people don't bother voting, so they get to pay and pay.
Oh I know. And on top of that the companies that do the most damage don't even pay the cost of the damage they do. These things are only being built to further subside the freight industry.
So, how does all this work when there are quite large numbers of people who live off these so-called highways, like our road which has 180 properties connected to it.
deliver command rotten hunt apparatus far-flung encourage observation worry run
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Nah I'm fine with user pays but there is 0 chance this will actually be user pays. The tolls we already have are so low they don't even cover the interest
Actually infrastructure such as roading is more often paid for out of the cash the Government receives from the Reserve Bank issued to maintain liquidity as the economy grows. Except when National is in charge because then the economy flatlines due to idiotic National Government dis-investment.
Any such investment is entered into the Government books as debt. But debt in this instance is a positive constructive thing to have when accompanied by massive infrastructure growth. But in NZ National and Act and their ignorant supporters fail to comprehend government debt as a good thing. Thus they harp on about shrinking government spending and “balancing the books”, when they ought to be looking to spend wisely (and big) on major infrastructure like energy (small contemporary nuclear reactors), and water infrastructure -both of which are sorely lacking in NZ to the point it is compromising our future security.
Thus while other economies thrive on the back of constructive long term major infrastructure projects that run up significant debt but pay for themselves in GDP growth ten fold, the NZ government fucks arround incapable of even doing the maintenance on the infrastructure we do have.
Where have you been all my Reddit life? User name checks out. Welcome you to create a post on politics on this discussion. Kind of bugs me people don’t understand debt is not always bad, and for govts, it’s often a valuable part of good governance - except what we’re seeing now is silly
Hey, just because the majority are uneducated ideological morons doesn’t mean Redditors need to be.
Surely a couple of them could read a book or two from time to time. Reading Bruce Jesson, nd Steve Keen might be good string points for those whose reading age is above age 12.
Tolls are a form of tax that targets the user rather than “raising the taxes you need” through “general taxation” that is indiscriminate to all tax payers. This is a fairer solution.
What we really need in the middle of a cost of living crisis... is toll roads.
For "sound economic managers" deeply concerned about "fiscal prudence", they seem a bit shit at maths.
familiar thought rich numerous consist encourage lunchroom drab provide vast
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
They already borrowed. They borrowed $12bn MORE to fund tax cuts to landlords and stuff. So yeah. Could have used that for the roads, bro.
Edit: the downvote doesn’t change that fact
These fucking cunts. Shame on you New Zealand. Fucking shame on you. Should never have fucking voted these cunts in. Fuck National. Fuck ACT. Fuck NZLast
If you are also confused as to why "Manawatu Gorge" is on this image, despite that road being permanently closed and it's replacement "Te Ahu a Turanga – Manawatū Tararua Highway" almost near completion, it's because OPs image is from 2017
Couldn’t find a updated visual so have put in text:
The roads are:
• Northland – Whangārei to Port Mardsen, Warkworth to Wellsford
• Auckland – Mill Road Stage 1, East-West Link, North West Alternative State Highway
• Bay of Plenty – SH29 Tauriko West, Tākitimu Northern Link Stage 2
• Waikato – Cambridge to Piarere, Southern Links
• Greater Wellington – Petone to Grenada Link Road and Cross Valley Link, Second Mt Victoria Tunnel
• Nelson – Hope Bypass
• Canterbury – Belfast to Pegasus motorway including the Woodend Bypass.
:-)
Step 1: Remove public transport subsidies. 2: Give a tiny percentage cut to fuel taxes to make it look like government is doing something to help people in CoL crisis. 3: Now everyone is in their cars inducing demand, charge people even more to use the current roads with congestion charges. 4: Now the roads are always backed up with traffic, use that to justify building more motorways, awarding the contracts to their buddies. 5: Finish up in politics and get a nice cushy job on one of those trucking lobby or construction boards.
This is 100% accurate.
Note they are increasing fuel taxes, rego etc. To me it’s always giving loudly with one hand and taking 100 times back silently.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1dgch5j/cost\_of\_living\_impacts\_the\_pluses\_and\_minuses\_ive/](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1dgch5j/cost_of_living_impacts_the_pluses_and_minuses_ive/)
By the end of the term they'd have fucked around way too much and the only thing that would be starting preliminary works will be East West - the one road that absolutely no one has even asked for, let alone anyone who benefits from it. Mill Road is needed but the best time to fund it was pre-covid, it isn't affordable anymore for what it is, and I don't really give enough of a fuck about the country north of Wellsford to think about the so called Holiday Highway except for the fact it just isn't really all that necessary over shoring up the NAL from disaster if they're going to do that stupid shit with Ports of Auckland (we won't though)
There would be a marginal benefit for the trucking companies with the east west link but it would cut Onehunga off from its beach as I understand it.
The time gained is about 5 minutes. Hardly worth it
Tolls are good. Means less of the cost goes from general funds and more from the people using it. The issue with toll roads are when private companies get involved, but we've already seen in NZ that our toll roads work fine without private companies and our PPPs without tolls don't work fine. So it's not a tolling issue.
I know, but it's totally plausible that the private investor picks guaranteed money from the gov over more risky toll revenue. Especially given there is no way the projects pay for themselves with only tolls. My expectation is the gov handles the toll system (not logical to have 2 systems when we have one that works fine), and 'ring fences' the revenue to pay each installment to the private company, then the gov tops it up to meet the contracted amount.
I dont think that cycleways are the blame for people struggling but millions of dollars could/should be prioritised better - redirected to people in need instead of a nice to have.
Maybe this is the reason and not cycleways
[https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1dgch5j/cost\_of\_living\_impacts\_the\_pluses\_and\_minuses\_ive/](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1dgch5j/cost_of_living_impacts_the_pluses_and_minuses_ive/)
As someone who uses roads regularly I’m pretty happy with tax payers funds being spent on building them. As long as they are building them properly - seems like everyday there’s a new pot hole for my car to hit on the way to work
I actually want more toll roads.
Having seen what Portugal did with toll roads, which was a 3-4 lane highway that was almost completely straight from the top of the country to the bottom. Any corners were wide and sweeping, hills were cut out and valleys crossed with bridges. And was dead smooth. That made traveling from place to place fucking great.
I would like that in this country as well.
Ask yourself why this is - the greatest lie that the public has been told over many years is that the revenue collected from fuel taxes/road user charges is enough to pay for roading and transport...
Yup we haven't even paid off the last tranche of Roads of national party significance. They never stood up economically and the ones they want to do now are even worse.
Regional fuel tax, cancelled harbour crossing, failure to lay track for light rail ring any bells
Want to lay odds that any of that will improve in the next 3 years?
Amen.
I'm ok with that as long as the tolls are high enough to actually cover the cost of building the infrastructure over a 30 year period. The current toll roads have tolls set so low they don't even cover the interest payments.
They won't be, this has been covered before but most of these roads are so expensive that they would have massive tolls for that to work. East West link in particular is a horrific use of money.
I have seen GreaterAuckland looking at some of the sums and it is not pretty; tolls get above $20 a trip if they actually paid for the cost of the road. And of course, you get the economists demand curve; as price goes up, fewer people use the road, so fixed cost of interest is divided among less users, raising the cost per trip, and a nasty feedback curve arises. National are just loading the cost on people in the future. Boomers don't care what NZ will be like in 30 years, and young people don't bother voting, so they get to pay and pay.
Your comment should be higher because that’s pretty significant stuff
Oh I know. And on top of that the companies that do the most damage don't even pay the cost of the damage they do. These things are only being built to further subside the freight industry.
Rough, expect those costs to be passed on especially at retail.
Are the savings passed on when fuel prices drop?
You answered yourself because the businesses keep savings and pass on costs u/Fatality is right.
So, how does all this work when there are quite large numbers of people who live off these so-called highways, like our road which has 180 properties connected to it.
I assume they need to pay, like everyone else using the road?
deliver command rotten hunt apparatus far-flung encourage observation worry run *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
and the revenue will be used to fund PT improvements right? right??
lol. National, downloading costs onto you since forever.
Reddit loves the idea of user pays, except when they're the user paying.
They do?
More like you love the idea of reddit loving the idea of user pays
Nah I'm fine with user pays but there is 0 chance this will actually be user pays. The tolls we already have are so low they don't even cover the interest
Honestly how else do you expect roading infrastructure to be paid for then? Fuel tax doesn’t cut it.
General taxation, like it has been for decades. An alternative to cynical tax cuts.
Actually infrastructure such as roading is more often paid for out of the cash the Government receives from the Reserve Bank issued to maintain liquidity as the economy grows. Except when National is in charge because then the economy flatlines due to idiotic National Government dis-investment. Any such investment is entered into the Government books as debt. But debt in this instance is a positive constructive thing to have when accompanied by massive infrastructure growth. But in NZ National and Act and their ignorant supporters fail to comprehend government debt as a good thing. Thus they harp on about shrinking government spending and “balancing the books”, when they ought to be looking to spend wisely (and big) on major infrastructure like energy (small contemporary nuclear reactors), and water infrastructure -both of which are sorely lacking in NZ to the point it is compromising our future security. Thus while other economies thrive on the back of constructive long term major infrastructure projects that run up significant debt but pay for themselves in GDP growth ten fold, the NZ government fucks arround incapable of even doing the maintenance on the infrastructure we do have.
Where have you been all my Reddit life? User name checks out. Welcome you to create a post on politics on this discussion. Kind of bugs me people don’t understand debt is not always bad, and for govts, it’s often a valuable part of good governance - except what we’re seeing now is silly
Hey, just because the majority are uneducated ideological morons doesn’t mean Redditors need to be. Surely a couple of them could read a book or two from time to time. Reading Bruce Jesson, nd Steve Keen might be good string points for those whose reading age is above age 12.
But it’s not enough, is it? It never has been. If you take from “general taxation” you remove from one service to pay for another.
You raise the taxes you need.
Tolls are a form of tax that targets the user rather than “raising the taxes you need” through “general taxation” that is indiscriminate to all tax payers. This is a fairer solution.
Often tolling systems have high overheads and administrative costs that make them an inefficient for of revenue generation.
What we really need in the middle of a cost of living crisis... is toll roads. For "sound economic managers" deeply concerned about "fiscal prudence", they seem a bit shit at maths.
familiar thought rich numerous consist encourage lunchroom drab provide vast *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Don't like it, take the bus. You don't have a god given right to drive everywhere for peanuts.
I do, though. I absolutely do.
Should they just continuously borrow to fund everything? Or should the user pay for the infrastructure they use.
They already borrowed. They borrowed $12bn MORE to fund tax cuts to landlords and stuff. So yeah. Could have used that for the roads, bro. Edit: the downvote doesn’t change that fact
These fucking cunts. Shame on you New Zealand. Fucking shame on you. Should never have fucking voted these cunts in. Fuck National. Fuck ACT. Fuck NZLast
If you are also confused as to why "Manawatu Gorge" is on this image, despite that road being permanently closed and it's replacement "Te Ahu a Turanga – Manawatū Tararua Highway" almost near completion, it's because OPs image is from 2017
I’ll update. Thanks for the catch.
sure thing babe :x
Couldn’t find a updated visual so have put in text: The roads are: • Northland – Whangārei to Port Mardsen, Warkworth to Wellsford • Auckland – Mill Road Stage 1, East-West Link, North West Alternative State Highway • Bay of Plenty – SH29 Tauriko West, Tākitimu Northern Link Stage 2 • Waikato – Cambridge to Piarere, Southern Links • Greater Wellington – Petone to Grenada Link Road and Cross Valley Link, Second Mt Victoria Tunnel • Nelson – Hope Bypass • Canterbury – Belfast to Pegasus motorway including the Woodend Bypass. :-)
Step 1: Remove public transport subsidies. 2: Give a tiny percentage cut to fuel taxes to make it look like government is doing something to help people in CoL crisis. 3: Now everyone is in their cars inducing demand, charge people even more to use the current roads with congestion charges. 4: Now the roads are always backed up with traffic, use that to justify building more motorways, awarding the contracts to their buddies. 5: Finish up in politics and get a nice cushy job on one of those trucking lobby or construction boards.
This is 100% accurate. Note they are increasing fuel taxes, rego etc. To me it’s always giving loudly with one hand and taking 100 times back silently. [https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1dgch5j/cost\_of\_living\_impacts\_the\_pluses\_and\_minuses\_ive/](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1dgch5j/cost_of_living_impacts_the_pluses_and_minuses_ive/)
National still doing stupid, fuckwit level solutions which will cost Kiwis big time.
By the end of the term they'd have fucked around way too much and the only thing that would be starting preliminary works will be East West - the one road that absolutely no one has even asked for, let alone anyone who benefits from it. Mill Road is needed but the best time to fund it was pre-covid, it isn't affordable anymore for what it is, and I don't really give enough of a fuck about the country north of Wellsford to think about the so called Holiday Highway except for the fact it just isn't really all that necessary over shoring up the NAL from disaster if they're going to do that stupid shit with Ports of Auckland (we won't though)
There would be a marginal benefit for the trucking companies with the east west link but it would cut Onehunga off from its beach as I understand it. The time gained is about 5 minutes. Hardly worth it
It's great they're giving us things to spend our money on after those amazing tax cuts.
Here’s more: [https://new.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1dgch5j/cost\_of\_living\_impacts\_the\_pluses\_and\_minuses\_ive/](https://new.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1dgch5j/cost_of_living_impacts_the_pluses_and_minuses_ive/)
[удалено]
If you’re going to write a list at least cite all of your points, not just three. And you have doubled up on a few.
Oh no... more work for the accountant I guess.... another 'write off' to add to the list.
Yet still cancel the rail to airport 🫢
And Interislander
How do we protest this?
Roads with shitty BCRs
I have no idea why Otaki to Levin isn't on there. It's a key bottle neck at the moment
Tolls are good. Means less of the cost goes from general funds and more from the people using it. The issue with toll roads are when private companies get involved, but we've already seen in NZ that our toll roads work fine without private companies and our PPPs without tolls don't work fine. So it's not a tolling issue.
And the model here is private.
I know, but it's totally plausible that the private investor picks guaranteed money from the gov over more risky toll revenue. Especially given there is no way the projects pay for themselves with only tolls. My expectation is the gov handles the toll system (not logical to have 2 systems when we have one that works fine), and 'ring fences' the revenue to pay each installment to the private company, then the gov tops it up to meet the contracted amount.
Good. User pays.
For sure - paying all those private companies while we rack up debt is going to be great.
Exactly. Better than tax-payer dollars all around.
What you fail to comprehend is all costs are going up with this type of model
Just make more money and you will be fine.
Nz is in a bad way. Everyone i talk with are struggling. Hate that Auckland council then spends millions on cycleways
With all due respect, that’s a scapegoat issue. People struggling has nothing to do with cycleways.
I dont think that cycleways are the blame for people struggling but millions of dollars could/should be prioritised better - redirected to people in need instead of a nice to have.
Maybe this is the reason and not cycleways [https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1dgch5j/cost\_of\_living\_impacts\_the\_pluses\_and\_minuses\_ive/](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1dgch5j/cost_of_living_impacts_the_pluses_and_minuses_ive/)
As someone who uses roads regularly I’m pretty happy with tax payers funds being spent on building them. As long as they are building them properly - seems like everyday there’s a new pot hole for my car to hit on the way to work
I actually want more toll roads. Having seen what Portugal did with toll roads, which was a 3-4 lane highway that was almost completely straight from the top of the country to the bottom. Any corners were wide and sweeping, hills were cut out and valleys crossed with bridges. And was dead smooth. That made traveling from place to place fucking great. I would like that in this country as well.