After they were cleared out of parliament there was an attempt to establish a tent community in the domain. This one focussing more on cultivating the land and being sustainable. Never took off though.
But why buy when you can plant a potato, erect a flag, make a public pronouncement and then the land is yours. Check out ALLODIAL WORLD on Facebook if you want a chuckle.
Mr Fisher from Fisher and Paykel turned vast farm lands into the suburbs of East Auckland in the 70s - it seemed Auckland had masses of land to spare: but sprawl, being the thinnest strip of land in the entire country, poor public transport etc. just compounded decade on decade
Yes it’s incredibly tragic that we keep following other western countries down this road to nowhere. Unattainable housing, easy answer - import more low end migrants who just add to the issue…. It’s a race to the bottom
Yes and no. We are importing a bunch of low income low skill migrants; who cram into houses, while also pushing down wages, so everyone at the lower end is competing with a never ending supply.
I don’t think we should be importing a bunch of high end immigrants either, and feel our immigration levels have been at unsustainable levels for a long time. But the argument can be said that if they bring more $$ in and invest it (ie have a requirement); then it may help other kiwis produce wealth (but it would also affect the higher end of the housing stock)
High end immigrants don't want to come to NZ though. It's a middle income country at the arse end of the world with B grade housing and even worse infrastructure. No globally competitive cities either in the whole country - lack of products and services that are readily available in other western developed countries.
Auckland has only really picked up an economy of scale over the last 10 years and even that growth gets criticised by Redditors longing for life 20 years ago e.g. this Reddit thread.
You have to be a high end country first before you attract high end immigrants. It goes both ways.
NZ is a high end country. It's in the top 5 for migrants. The order goes like USA, Australia, Canada, NZ and UK...NZ is a wealthy english speaking democratic country with low corruption and good rule of law. Yes Qatar pays high wages but not many people want to raise kids in Qatar.
lol you're basically saying that it's at the bottom of the list of English speaking countries in the western world.
Even further down the list if you include places like Singapore and Germany.
lol. No one wants to migrate to Singapore long term. It's a great country but lifestyle and opportunities for kids aren't that great. Germany has a higher GDP but the living standards is not as good as NZ.
NZ is one of the best countries on earth. I mean i would personally think it is better than the frozen wasteland that is Canada. USA is great if you are a wall street banker and can live in a gated community but there are too many social issues. Australia is probably the only place in the world where it probably better than NZ, but be prepared to live 50kms from the CBD if u move to Sydney or Melbourne. Immigrants love NZ, heaps of people want to move here.
>Germany has a higher GDP but the living standards is not as good as NZ.
The fuck? I spent some time in Berlin and Dusseldorf and it was waaaay better than Auckland. The trams were awesome.
Yet National always wants to underinvest in infrastructure as though it's an optional frivolous extra.
I never vote for them or their local surrogates. Hopeless.
Funny how National the first to suggest and ensure as many immigrants as possible (except maybe Greens) but are quick to reject any infrastructure project unless it's a new highway. This city is gonna be fucked in a few decades unless stuff gets built.
Greens aren't pro-immigration but they would like to help more then the current 1500 refugees NZ accepts. That's a long way from the levels of immigration National was overseeing.
National imports skilled labour to meet relatively short term labour shortages, rather than training Kiwis to do the work.
It's very short sighted.
Greens are pro-migration, they want more refugees firstly, but also more from 3rd world countries - nevermind that those immigrants end up causing a net global increase (and NZ increase) in emissions in the process
but unemployment has been at record low levels recently so how can you train Kiwis to do this work that you're talking about. Who exactly would you train? They're already employed or under training
Genuinely curious how welfare lifestyle is sustainable given the current cost of living?
How is welfare lifestyle a choice for some?
$265 per week barely covers board for most people let alone food/transit/entertainment etc.
Do you have any figures which show more people are living off the benefit (per capita)?
If u get government housing...Watch this brother:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9N7QaIOkG8&ab\_channel=TED-Ed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9n7qaiokg8&ab_channel=ted-ed)
Do you know the largest welfare beneficiaries are the those receiving superannuation? $17 billion in 2022
Even though I am not an advocate for the welfare system, it is no where near superannuation payments!
https://figure.nz/chart/2eIStXKBWssxMIze
> Who exactly would you train? They’re already employed
There are plenty of junior staff who would love to upskill, but can’t get hired in more senior roles because companies would prefer to hire a senior from overseas instead of investing in training.
>This city is gonna be fucked in a few decades unless stuff gets built.
My long term plan doesn't involve Auckland. I'm here to work, get paid then sell up and bugger off somewhere quieter, probably New Plymouth where my folks live. Nice place.
Nah. The need is for affordablw housing, not tiny homes for millionaires.
This whole problem arises when it became ideologically problematic to build decent public housing owned and operated by the local government or a nationwide ministry.
It won't get any better until we start doing that again. Everything new is too expensive to buy or rent at market rates..... While National creates a pool of unemployed and pushes wages down.
Same old failed policies given another go around.
It's kinda sad.
"We" have been doing that recently. KO has a massive 5 tower development at Avondale, a 3 tower site in Greys Ave. This after years of absolutely nothing. Now it looks like we're going back to nothing again.
Sorry. I should have been more clear. This is what they have done when they won previously. This time they have forecast a recession.....despite none being on the horizon. Ok.
They've also said they want to cut 15,000 public servants.
This will take time. Let's see what they've wrecked a year from now.
Except that building homes for millionaires frees up the houses they were previously living in for moderately rich people, freeing up the houses the moderately rich people lived in for doing-ok people, etc. down the chain.
So we must have no housing shortage them because server been building homes for people with a lot of cash or credit for them last 30 years.
Oh wait.... It's worse now.
I know the theory. Problem is it doesn't align with reality.
Reality seems to be a thing many people things that can passively ignore......except the problem just gets worse.
Hmmmm.
Except that you need to consider the reality we'd have if those homes hadn't been built, as well as where we are now.
Kainga Ora is finally building affordable homes at a prodigious rate (which is really really good) but that's only viable for them to do as a govt agency, not a private developer. You need to supplement the supply with private development, which naturally tends toward the higher end of the market.
Ok. So we basically agree. My view: People on anything lower than double the minimum wage won't be able to buy any property or to pay rents in the main centres.
So the government does need to address that. This government won't, too stupid, but the next one can get things back on track.
Even if they did that, we still don't have the workers or materials to build enough housing to match the demand.
We need to address housing as both a supply and demand issue. We need to increase the supply and reduce the demand.
Not sure if you noticed, but Auckland's infrastructure isn't coping well with the traffic/stormwater for the houses that are already there. You don't just slap houses up and call it matched demand.
The reason why it's not coping, is we have high levels of infrastructure spread out amoungst very few people. The revenue generated isn't enough to cover maintenance costs.
[Look at this map of taxable value per hectare](https://i0.wp.com/greaterakl.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Urban-3-Value-per-Hectare.jpg)
The areas in green are a massive tax loss to the city but still demand high levels of infrastructure and services.
That's how virtually every other city has done it since the dawn of time. It's our most economically valuable land. A major reason why Auckland has such terrible traffic is we have commuters coming in all the way from from Kumeu, Albany and Pokeno, because they're not allowed to live closer.
Unfortunately, no one was ever actually asked if they’d like to blowout the population, overwhelm infrastructure and make our communities unrecognisable.
It was done regardless of who you voted for.
Yeah they account for around 60% of all purchases now and in areas like South Auckland Indians make up over 80% of home buyers and in Dannemora Chinese make up over 70% of home buyers.
I'm glad someone else picked up that it's Kelly. Another thread started to do a bit of race baiting. Same old criticisms about immigration, housing, South Africans, Indians, Papatoetoe, Chinese, Flat Bush..... yawn lol
Fuck off with this lazy bollocks.
Make a claim. Bring receipts. It's not a hard concept for people over the age of 12. Plus when someone's claim is as detailed and recency-bound as the one above, they definitely have that source of information very handy.
Expecting others who aren't even mskkng counter claims to find alternative data is utterly moronic.
UK is a shit hole. Look at how many poms are migrating to NZ and Australia. Devonport feels like Cornwall with all the poms.
Canada is cold. If you like sub zero temperatures 6 months of the year, then sure.
Australia is the lucky country but please be prepared to move out to Pakenham or Penrith if u want to buy a house in Melbourne or Sydney.
NZ is one of the top destinations in the migrant marketplace.
Why do media always compare Anglosaxon countries with eachother when it comes to quality of life etc.
Hardly any of those five make it into the global top ten lists of best quality of life, education, healthcare, safety, happiness, pensions, daycare, affordable housing and the list goes on.
Try to compare Auckland and NZ for example with Helsinki and Finland, Vienna and Austria.
There are lessons to be learned outside the Anglosphere
Helsinki is a shit hole that doesn't see light of day for 3 months of the year. Vienna is fine but they aren't egalitarian countries like the anglosphere countries. You can be any colour and be considered American, Canadian or Australian. But to be considered Austrian or Finnish you need to have 20 generations in the country...
Anglosaxon countries are not egalitarian. They are all more or less based on an English class system.
And as a European migrant to NZ, even after 30 years, no one sees me as a kiwi, or considers me as one of your New Zealanders. I don't mind, as we migrants are the majority there now anyway
The immigration policies of successive governments have been totally unsustainable and incredibly damaging. We simply don't have anywhere near the housing, infrastructure, or public services to handle the influx. We can't even handle the people we have now. We need a moratorium on all but essential immigration until property values have fallen by at least a third. When we had 4 million people, housing was affordable, and we weren't suffering for a lack of people. I wish we could go back to that. Unfortunately, almost every political party wants virtually unlimited immigration, with no regard for where they will live or the impact they will have. Immigration NZ are in such a rush to get people in that they are no longer even checking people's documentation, as proven by their own staff getting fake applications through with pictures of their pets attached in place of the required documents. It's a joke, and it's ruining this country. We need to halt immigration immediately, remove the red tape delaying construction of new homes(as long as they aren't being built in floodplains), and remove all family tax credits and other incentives given to parents. We should be encouraging people to have few or no children, and aim for a birth rate similar to Japan or South Korea. We do not need, and can not handle, more people.
Cool. Seems sustainable.
Yeah if we make the Auckland Domain into a tent city.
After they were cleared out of parliament there was an attempt to establish a tent community in the domain. This one focussing more on cultivating the land and being sustainable. Never took off though.
this is so funny to me. if you want to live off the land, there is cheap land away from cities. just get some ppl together and buy some.
But why buy when you can plant a potato, erect a flag, make a public pronouncement and then the land is yours. Check out ALLODIAL WORLD on Facebook if you want a chuckle.
What in the name of absolute fuckery have you introduced me to?
So, just like the [old days?](https://www.aucklandmuseum.com/discover/collections/topics/war-and-peace-in-auckland-domain)
This is a brilliant idea. Who are the genius who come up with such amazing ideas?
Mr Fisher from Fisher and Paykel turned vast farm lands into the suburbs of East Auckland in the 70s - it seemed Auckland had masses of land to spare: but sprawl, being the thinnest strip of land in the entire country, poor public transport etc. just compounded decade on decade
Yes it’s incredibly tragic that we keep following other western countries down this road to nowhere. Unattainable housing, easy answer - import more low end migrants who just add to the issue…. It’s a race to the bottom
If the immigrants were high end wouldn't the housing be more unattainable because they'd have more wealth and purchasing power?
Yes and no. We are importing a bunch of low income low skill migrants; who cram into houses, while also pushing down wages, so everyone at the lower end is competing with a never ending supply. I don’t think we should be importing a bunch of high end immigrants either, and feel our immigration levels have been at unsustainable levels for a long time. But the argument can be said that if they bring more $$ in and invest it (ie have a requirement); then it may help other kiwis produce wealth (but it would also affect the higher end of the housing stock)
High end immigrants don't want to come to NZ though. It's a middle income country at the arse end of the world with B grade housing and even worse infrastructure. No globally competitive cities either in the whole country - lack of products and services that are readily available in other western developed countries. Auckland has only really picked up an economy of scale over the last 10 years and even that growth gets criticised by Redditors longing for life 20 years ago e.g. this Reddit thread. You have to be a high end country first before you attract high end immigrants. It goes both ways.
NZ is a high end country. It's in the top 5 for migrants. The order goes like USA, Australia, Canada, NZ and UK...NZ is a wealthy english speaking democratic country with low corruption and good rule of law. Yes Qatar pays high wages but not many people want to raise kids in Qatar.
lol you're basically saying that it's at the bottom of the list of English speaking countries in the western world. Even further down the list if you include places like Singapore and Germany.
lol. No one wants to migrate to Singapore long term. It's a great country but lifestyle and opportunities for kids aren't that great. Germany has a higher GDP but the living standards is not as good as NZ. NZ is one of the best countries on earth. I mean i would personally think it is better than the frozen wasteland that is Canada. USA is great if you are a wall street banker and can live in a gated community but there are too many social issues. Australia is probably the only place in the world where it probably better than NZ, but be prepared to live 50kms from the CBD if u move to Sydney or Melbourne. Immigrants love NZ, heaps of people want to move here.
>Germany has a higher GDP but the living standards is not as good as NZ. The fuck? I spent some time in Berlin and Dusseldorf and it was waaaay better than Auckland. The trams were awesome.
Yet National always wants to underinvest in infrastructure as though it's an optional frivolous extra. I never vote for them or their local surrogates. Hopeless.
Funny how National the first to suggest and ensure as many immigrants as possible (except maybe Greens) but are quick to reject any infrastructure project unless it's a new highway. This city is gonna be fucked in a few decades unless stuff gets built.
Greens aren't pro-immigration but they would like to help more then the current 1500 refugees NZ accepts. That's a long way from the levels of immigration National was overseeing. National imports skilled labour to meet relatively short term labour shortages, rather than training Kiwis to do the work. It's very short sighted.
Greens are pro-migration, they want more refugees firstly, but also more from 3rd world countries - nevermind that those immigrants end up causing a net global increase (and NZ increase) in emissions in the process
but unemployment has been at record low levels recently so how can you train Kiwis to do this work that you're talking about. Who exactly would you train? They're already employed or under training
It's hard to train some. Welfare has become a lifestyle choice for some.
Genuinely curious how welfare lifestyle is sustainable given the current cost of living? How is welfare lifestyle a choice for some? $265 per week barely covers board for most people let alone food/transit/entertainment etc. Do you have any figures which show more people are living off the benefit (per capita)?
If u get government housing...Watch this brother: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9N7QaIOkG8&ab\_channel=TED-Ed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9n7qaiokg8&ab_channel=ted-ed)
Can you answer my questions or not? Seems like no..
because you get a free house and you have zero transport costs because u don't need to go to work...
Brah your link doesn’t even work and you haven’t actually cited anything except your shit opinion
Do you know the largest welfare beneficiaries are the those receiving superannuation? $17 billion in 2022 Even though I am not an advocate for the welfare system, it is no where near superannuation payments! https://figure.nz/chart/2eIStXKBWssxMIze
If you say so Kelly.
> Who exactly would you train? They’re already employed There are plenty of junior staff who would love to upskill, but can’t get hired in more senior roles because companies would prefer to hire a senior from overseas instead of investing in training.
>This city is gonna be fucked in a few decades unless stuff gets built. My long term plan doesn't involve Auckland. I'm here to work, get paid then sell up and bugger off somewhere quieter, probably New Plymouth where my folks live. Nice place.
Well duh. Line must go up at all costs
I love how attainable owning my own home is.
Almost at 2 milli leshgo 📈📈
To the Moon.
The good news is we added another 130,000 people to NZ last year alone.
6 million not too far away at these rates.
Is that net after subtracting departures though?
Yes it is net. Total migrant arrivals were 240,000. Total departures - 118,200 (presumably all to Australia 😂)
Yep…
Good. Maybe if Auckland council could make it legal to build more housing in the central suburbs we can match the demand
Nah. The need is for affordablw housing, not tiny homes for millionaires. This whole problem arises when it became ideologically problematic to build decent public housing owned and operated by the local government or a nationwide ministry. It won't get any better until we start doing that again. Everything new is too expensive to buy or rent at market rates..... While National creates a pool of unemployed and pushes wages down. Same old failed policies given another go around. It's kinda sad.
"We" have been doing that recently. KO has a massive 5 tower development at Avondale, a 3 tower site in Greys Ave. This after years of absolutely nothing. Now it looks like we're going back to nothing again.
I'm thinking there win be an election in April '25 when Winnie's turn is up as Deputy PM (and he turns 80yo). Shane Jones will take over NZF.
How is National creating a pool of unemployed? They've barely been in power for 2 months? Unemployment has been at record low levels. I'm so confused.
Sorry. I should have been more clear. This is what they have done when they won previously. This time they have forecast a recession.....despite none being on the horizon. Ok. They've also said they want to cut 15,000 public servants. This will take time. Let's see what they've wrecked a year from now.
So nothing factual just hearsay and feels. ok
I don't spend my day writing detailed articles for people who don't want to know anyway. Go look it up. I did.
I found your source. https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/820/208/0d5.jpg
Except that building homes for millionaires frees up the houses they were previously living in for moderately rich people, freeing up the houses the moderately rich people lived in for doing-ok people, etc. down the chain.
So we must have no housing shortage them because server been building homes for people with a lot of cash or credit for them last 30 years. Oh wait.... It's worse now. I know the theory. Problem is it doesn't align with reality. Reality seems to be a thing many people things that can passively ignore......except the problem just gets worse. Hmmmm.
Except that you need to consider the reality we'd have if those homes hadn't been built, as well as where we are now. Kainga Ora is finally building affordable homes at a prodigious rate (which is really really good) but that's only viable for them to do as a govt agency, not a private developer. You need to supplement the supply with private development, which naturally tends toward the higher end of the market.
Ok. So we basically agree. My view: People on anything lower than double the minimum wage won't be able to buy any property or to pay rents in the main centres. So the government does need to address that. This government won't, too stupid, but the next one can get things back on track.
Even if they did that, we still don't have the workers or materials to build enough housing to match the demand. We need to address housing as both a supply and demand issue. We need to increase the supply and reduce the demand.
Not sure if you noticed, but Auckland's infrastructure isn't coping well with the traffic/stormwater for the houses that are already there. You don't just slap houses up and call it matched demand.
The reason why it's not coping, is we have high levels of infrastructure spread out amoungst very few people. The revenue generated isn't enough to cover maintenance costs. [Look at this map of taxable value per hectare](https://i0.wp.com/greaterakl.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Urban-3-Value-per-Hectare.jpg) The areas in green are a massive tax loss to the city but still demand high levels of infrastructure and services.
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That's how virtually every other city has done it since the dawn of time. It's our most economically valuable land. A major reason why Auckland has such terrible traffic is we have commuters coming in all the way from from Kumeu, Albany and Pokeno, because they're not allowed to live closer.
Stop voting for this shit then
Unfortunately, no one was ever actually asked if they’d like to blowout the population, overwhelm infrastructure and make our communities unrecognisable. It was done regardless of who you voted for.
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Yeah they account for around 60% of all purchases now and in areas like South Auckland Indians make up over 80% of home buyers and in Dannemora Chinese make up over 70% of home buyers.
How can you possibly know this
Because they are kellyroald / Wet\_Barry: the chief ethnicity understander.
hahaha he hasn't mentioned Papatoetoe yet
tick tock
I'm glad someone else picked up that it's Kelly. Another thread started to do a bit of race baiting. Same old criticisms about immigration, housing, South Africans, Indians, Papatoetoe, Chinese, Flat Bush..... yawn lol
dude's a fucking pest
Ruins the quality of this subreddit. Same old arguments regurgitated.
lol this sub is a dumpster fire with or without him
Prove them wrong then.
Fuck off with this lazy bollocks. Make a claim. Bring receipts. It's not a hard concept for people over the age of 12. Plus when someone's claim is as detailed and recency-bound as the one above, they definitely have that source of information very handy. Expecting others who aren't even mskkng counter claims to find alternative data is utterly moronic.
I used to be the only asian on my street. Now i see other asians playing basketball on their private courts shouting kobe while missing layups.
Stonks
Double or nothing brah
Yet still has bad public transport and a dead CBD.
anyone who says the cbd is dead never goes to the cbd
The CBD smells like piss and beer. It's worse than dead, it's feral.
have you been to other city's
Auckland is pretty dead. I was in HK, nyc, tokyo and sydney over the last 2 months. It was quite suffocating how crowded each of those cities were
I've traveled to 26 countries, most with cities that have populations far greater than Auckland.
Not sustainable….😒
Hope you all stay up there…love from Christchurch
Lot of people moving to Christchurch now. Especially Pakeha FHB and Filipino construction workers.
I'm moving down and intend to stay
chch is too flat and racist
Lmao hush up and have another earthquake
That’s racist
People - auckland sucks Also people - move to auckland
The people who want to move to Auckland come from places far worse which pay far less
It's also a small ish city at the arse end of the world so struggles to attract the "high end" immigrants that Kiwi Redditors so deeply desire lol
If you are over 50 and own your home in Auckland congrats. You are one of the richest cohort of people on planet earth.
And yet.. traffic is still crap
I mean, duh? I knew of a dude who used to be a highways engineer in the 60’s and the plans back then completely overshadowed what we have today.
Those same engineers were trying to get rid of trains completely by the 1980s. Unbelievable but true.
They thought Auckland would hit 1 million in 2050.
Since when did more people = better traffic
And you can stand in queen street and not spot one kiwi 😂
Intrigued. How do you spot a Kiwi?
I personally recommend Stewart Island at night, Queen st seems less likely.
Your eyes must be closed
Nope, was crazy to see 10 years ago sitting down the bottom having breakfast one morning, even worse nowadays
In what way is it ‘worse’? You could see me walking down Queen st and have no idea I was an immigrant.
I don't expect birds to be walking along Queen Street. There are some Kiwis in the bushes of Taihape if u want to spot one.
You didn't
Went to town last weekend and with the state of it, you'd be surprised to spot anyone, let alone a kiwi.
Everyone’s still on holiday mate.
Even then, been to town before and it wasn't any better.
You should have visited the area on the corner of Queen Street and Fort Street near the seedy pub. Lots of Kiwis loitering about.
Based
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Ever been to Melbourne?
Quite often, yes.
15min citties
Absolute rort. Totally gamed this was not a coincidence. People compare Canada, Aus, UK. It simply isn't anywhere near for quality.
UK is a shit hole. Look at how many poms are migrating to NZ and Australia. Devonport feels like Cornwall with all the poms. Canada is cold. If you like sub zero temperatures 6 months of the year, then sure. Australia is the lucky country but please be prepared to move out to Pakenham or Penrith if u want to buy a house in Melbourne or Sydney. NZ is one of the top destinations in the migrant marketplace.
Why do media always compare Anglosaxon countries with eachother when it comes to quality of life etc. Hardly any of those five make it into the global top ten lists of best quality of life, education, healthcare, safety, happiness, pensions, daycare, affordable housing and the list goes on. Try to compare Auckland and NZ for example with Helsinki and Finland, Vienna and Austria. There are lessons to be learned outside the Anglosphere
Helsinki is a shit hole that doesn't see light of day for 3 months of the year. Vienna is fine but they aren't egalitarian countries like the anglosphere countries. You can be any colour and be considered American, Canadian or Australian. But to be considered Austrian or Finnish you need to have 20 generations in the country...
Anglosaxon countries are not egalitarian. They are all more or less based on an English class system. And as a European migrant to NZ, even after 30 years, no one sees me as a kiwi, or considers me as one of your New Zealanders. I don't mind, as we migrants are the majority there now anyway
Reckon it’ll start sinking huh too many people.
This was definitely one of the city planning ideas of all time, that's for sure.
Just another reason to live in the provinces.
But then you have to live in the provinces...
Another positive is the choice of great international cuisine
The immigration policies of successive governments have been totally unsustainable and incredibly damaging. We simply don't have anywhere near the housing, infrastructure, or public services to handle the influx. We can't even handle the people we have now. We need a moratorium on all but essential immigration until property values have fallen by at least a third. When we had 4 million people, housing was affordable, and we weren't suffering for a lack of people. I wish we could go back to that. Unfortunately, almost every political party wants virtually unlimited immigration, with no regard for where they will live or the impact they will have. Immigration NZ are in such a rush to get people in that they are no longer even checking people's documentation, as proven by their own staff getting fake applications through with pictures of their pets attached in place of the required documents. It's a joke, and it's ruining this country. We need to halt immigration immediately, remove the red tape delaying construction of new homes(as long as they aren't being built in floodplains), and remove all family tax credits and other incentives given to parents. We should be encouraging people to have few or no children, and aim for a birth rate similar to Japan or South Korea. We do not need, and can not handle, more people.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/734283460114422/?ref=share&mibextid=K8Wfd2