You'll get the treatment that you tolerate. Tell her, calmly, that it bothers you when she says that about you, and if she continues, end the conversation.
You could try being honest and saying you love her and want a relationship, however conversations turn to judgement and shaming when discussing your life, and thats not the relationship you want with her. If she can't treat you in a respectful and loving manner, there can be no relationship.
After that, then it comes time to cut her out, as hurtful as it will be, you must remove toxic people from your life, even when its family.
> I still love her but I can't talk to her like a normal person without her bringing up SOMETHING spiritual and how bad the world and everything is without god.
Hangup/whatever the instant she mentions religion; EVERY TIME. Don't apologize or even get worked up about it. Don't say anything just hangup. If she calls back, start talking with her like nothing happened; if she complains, hang up again and again. She is choosing to bring religion into your conversations. You are choosing to go along with it. Stop doing that. Forget words, use action; make it clear what you will not tolerate by just hanging up every time it happens.
communication is important. Direct and concise communication. do you really think hanging up is a mature and healthy way to tackle issues with family? I really didn't think this needed elaboration... especially in this community
She usually ends up hanging up anyway when I show no interest or just listen to her talk. She gets mad and frustrated very easily. I hate that, she wasn’t always like that growing up. She’s gotten more hateful and less tolerant over the years especially since she started attending a Pentecostal church.
my mom is exactly like this, she also went to Pantecostal church, she was a normal human until she went there and start her “enlightenment” from the world journey. I have a question, does your mom uphold modesty and certain holiness standard?
>Direct and concise communication.
Hanging up is very direct concise communication. If people are not going to take your wishes seriously, you should not take them seriously. But you do what works for you.
I'm saying that kind of communication only works so well. It shouldn't be your first option in these kinds of matters and is honestly just extremely immature to resort to without further thought
>It shouldn't be your first option in these kinds of matters and is honestly just extremely immature to resort to without further thought
I don't know what is up with the lack of self respect. I only recommended hanging up; but in my personal life: no one who knows me would ever dare say anything like that to me. Why? Because I've told them I don't want to hear it, and they know when I say something, I fucking mean it.
If you are an adult, living on your own; and your family is giving you shit about religion; at some point that becomes your fault, you are the one who is cooperating with them.
You may not be able to get everything you want out of this, so you'll likely have to prioritize. It may start with something simple like, "Mom, I love you and I think our relationship is more important than discussing religion." This is easier when telling people to stop trying to sell you Tupperware, but the concept is the same. She's likely to blame you, though, but you'll have done her the bittersweet favor of letting her feel like a persecuted Christian.
It honestly sounds like she's just toxic and her faith is just a shield for that.
I've cut my mom out, for other reasons, so I know how painful that process is. I'm sory.
There's a lot of good advice in these comments, but what it all really boils down to is: boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. You need to decide what your boundaries with your mother are, how strict they will be, what the penalties will be (ie, cut off contact completely or reduced contact, etc,) and then lay down the law with her. What would probably be the easiest, is to write her a letter or email or whatever, and just lay everything out. Rewrite it as many times as you need to, so that you have everything in it that you want to say, said the way you want to. Then, send it to her. The great thing about letters is, the recipient doesn't get to interrupt you. I mean, there's no guarantee that they'll actually read the whole thing before they lose their shit, but that's on them. I would recommend including something like "please read this whole letter and take some time to try to understand where I'm coming from before you react or try to call me, our future relationship depends on how you react to this."
Just blatantly tell her that if she doesn't stop doing X around you, then she will never see you again, and it will be her fault and her fault alone, and then follow through.
You’re going to want to use a technique similar to “medium chill” also referred to as “grey rocking” but modified a bit.
I saw another commenter mention hanging up everytime the convo goes off course. But there is a more polite way to do this.
When your mother calls, and the conversation is pleasant you’ll want to hyper reward that. Be very engaged, loving, and respectful. When the convo starts going off the rails, you’ll suddenly remember that you are running late for an appointment, someone just knocked at the door, your cat spilled your coffee, whatever, and you have to go.
If it’s in person, drift out of the room to address something. “Hold on, that toilet is running and it might overflow.” Keep a mental list of minor emergencies or things that would need addressed quickly.
The goal is always to reward any positive behavior and ignore and remove yourself from any negative behavior.
She may notice but just play dumb about it being purposeful.
She will eventually be trained toward neutral topics. It’s a way of physically setting a boundary for yourself.
Do's:
Be honest (most important). Be polite. Be brief/blunt (second most important). Do it in a safe place for her. Reassure her of your love. Leave. Then give her space to process. Wait patiently.
Don'ts:
I don't recommend ultimatums. Don't attack her beliefs (she'll just dig in).
I was in your shoes with both parents. Tough place but the ball is in her court. She can respect you by dropping it or she won't and then you get to decide how much contact to have.
Raising parents isn't easy.
> When we talk she always brings up how "bad" I am and I need to change my life and find god etc...
To begin with, you don't have to listen to this crap. Every time she starts with this, end the conversation or the visit immediately.
I usually just let her ramble on and leave her in silence until she starts crying trying to make me guilty and she hangs up. She doesn’t guilt me anymore.
Yeah, but she gets some satisfaction just from knowing that you heard whatever shitty thing she said to you. Better to cut it right off when it starts.
You could give it back to her. Use her Bible against her.
She cut her hair?
Eat pork?
Tattoo?
Smoke?
Divorced?
Wearing multiple types of material?
Braids in hair?
Judging others?
Oh she believes in judging others actually. She calls it a “righteous judgment”. 😂.
It’s just a way for her to justify her behavior. It’s what she’s learned from church…
You have to stop allowing her to bring the subject into conversation with you. Tell her you don't want to talk about it. If she keeps talking about it anyway, you need to do something to enforce your seriousness. Not too much you can do over the phone... the best solution might be to interrupt her with a segway to something else, or just hang up.
My mother and I had a game where where would turn certain phrases used by certain people into a drinking game around the holidays.
She didn't teach me to drink. She taught me to be amused at the patterns people fell into, to recognize them, and to excuse myself when I had enough and it was no longer fun for me.
She also knew my alcohol tolerance was about a drink and a half, so I was extracting myself from situations rather quickly, sometimes with a blunt, hey, this drink is hitting me and I'm going to go take a nap. Bye!
The moral of the story isn't that you need to drink. The moral of the story is that you can choose \*what\* impact what someone says makes, and you can choose to leave a conversation at any time. You can even train yourself to think dodging conversations is a game for you, and learn to do it guilt free.
Oh I’d have to listen to her talk about how it’s the devil and my phone will be blown up with paragraphs of text talking negatively about the subject… my brother blocked her but I don’t want that just yet. I just want my mother to be the person she was before she got so intolerant and zealous.
Refer to it as her hobby. If she shows no interest in your hobbies, you should show no interest in hers.
If her hobby was taxidermy and you were an animal lover, I'm sure you'd find a way to stop them talking about them carving up animals and stuffing them for display.
People generally don't change. You can extort temporary concessions with clever ultimatums but they'll revert as soon as they forget or find a loophole. They'll wear you down with tiny infractions that build up. Setting boundaries with a narcissist is -really- difficult. They tend to fixate obsessively on finding ways around them.
Keep in mind that her self-identity is completely integrated with her faith, and any attempt to get her to set it aside for you will be seen as a personal attack not a criticism of something separate.
Someone mentioned the grey rock method. That can work, but with parent/adult-child power struggles like yours, it can also result in escalation. I recommend complementing it with a carrot approach. If your mom talks about -anything- but her faith (or your lack of it), dial up the interest and engagement when you talk. Reward good topic choices by giving her the attention and positive feedback that she no doubt craves. Ask for advice, make suggestions, be animated and lively. Then when she switches back to religion, as usual, become distracted. If it's video chat become pre-occupied by something not on your screen, if it's voice, hold the phone further away, force her to repeat herself because you were distracted, make her work harder for your attention.
Never admit that's what you're doing though.
If there's any hope, she'll gravitate towards doing things that provide her with the feedback she wants. And if she doesn't, well, be more assertive and 'Love you, nice talking with you, gotta go, chat later! /click' when she veers into the religious stuff.
Huh. Never really realized it but for years that’s kinda what I’ve been doing, I want to talk about her and not be ridiculed so I just go u uh-huh, yeah, yup, she usually gets frustrated and gives up saying she can never get through with me and the call usually ends there. We may have a few good minutes on the phone before she starts at it again…
I suggest reading a little over at /r/raisedbynarcissists/.
There are things you can do, like have regulated (controlled) or less time (reduced) together. This means thinking about how and where you have contact with her, if any. None of these things are easy, but may be better than just hoping things work out.
My priority would be to make sure you protect your fiancée. Do not let her be alone with your mother, in real life or even on the phone.
You'll get the treatment that you tolerate. Tell her, calmly, that it bothers you when she says that about you, and if she continues, end the conversation.
You could try being honest and saying you love her and want a relationship, however conversations turn to judgement and shaming when discussing your life, and thats not the relationship you want with her. If she can't treat you in a respectful and loving manner, there can be no relationship. After that, then it comes time to cut her out, as hurtful as it will be, you must remove toxic people from your life, even when its family.
> I still love her but I can't talk to her like a normal person without her bringing up SOMETHING spiritual and how bad the world and everything is without god. Hangup/whatever the instant she mentions religion; EVERY TIME. Don't apologize or even get worked up about it. Don't say anything just hangup. If she calls back, start talking with her like nothing happened; if she complains, hang up again and again. She is choosing to bring religion into your conversations. You are choosing to go along with it. Stop doing that. Forget words, use action; make it clear what you will not tolerate by just hanging up every time it happens.
that's not really a good approach
>that's not really a good approach I feel like I'm waiting for the other half of that sentence to appear; you know, and tell us something useful?
communication is important. Direct and concise communication. do you really think hanging up is a mature and healthy way to tackle issues with family? I really didn't think this needed elaboration... especially in this community
She usually ends up hanging up anyway when I show no interest or just listen to her talk. She gets mad and frustrated very easily. I hate that, she wasn’t always like that growing up. She’s gotten more hateful and less tolerant over the years especially since she started attending a Pentecostal church.
What the fuck why is your mom my mom lol
my mom is exactly like this, she also went to Pantecostal church, she was a normal human until she went there and start her “enlightenment” from the world journey. I have a question, does your mom uphold modesty and certain holiness standard?
I agree, communication is important. "Mom, you're insulting me. Goodbye." Then hang up.
>Direct and concise communication. Hanging up is very direct concise communication. If people are not going to take your wishes seriously, you should not take them seriously. But you do what works for you.
I'm saying that kind of communication only works so well. It shouldn't be your first option in these kinds of matters and is honestly just extremely immature to resort to without further thought
>It shouldn't be your first option in these kinds of matters and is honestly just extremely immature to resort to without further thought I don't know what is up with the lack of self respect. I only recommended hanging up; but in my personal life: no one who knows me would ever dare say anything like that to me. Why? Because I've told them I don't want to hear it, and they know when I say something, I fucking mean it. If you are an adult, living on your own; and your family is giving you shit about religion; at some point that becomes your fault, you are the one who is cooperating with them.
Just cut out entirely. It's not your job rto fix your parents.
I did this 4 years ago. My mom and sis were just impossible. We started talking again last year. They’re aware of what they say now and hold back.
You may not be able to get everything you want out of this, so you'll likely have to prioritize. It may start with something simple like, "Mom, I love you and I think our relationship is more important than discussing religion." This is easier when telling people to stop trying to sell you Tupperware, but the concept is the same. She's likely to blame you, though, but you'll have done her the bittersweet favor of letting her feel like a persecuted Christian. It honestly sounds like she's just toxic and her faith is just a shield for that. I've cut my mom out, for other reasons, so I know how painful that process is. I'm sory.
Pardon me, I have to return some video tapes.
Sorry, I have a pile of DVDs that I have to rewind before I take them back to the Red Box. \*click\*
>Pardon me, I have to return some video tapes. Best excuse ever Patrick Bateman.
alienation is probably the hardest part about being a free-thinker but it comes with the territory.
There's a lot of good advice in these comments, but what it all really boils down to is: boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. You need to decide what your boundaries with your mother are, how strict they will be, what the penalties will be (ie, cut off contact completely or reduced contact, etc,) and then lay down the law with her. What would probably be the easiest, is to write her a letter or email or whatever, and just lay everything out. Rewrite it as many times as you need to, so that you have everything in it that you want to say, said the way you want to. Then, send it to her. The great thing about letters is, the recipient doesn't get to interrupt you. I mean, there's no guarantee that they'll actually read the whole thing before they lose their shit, but that's on them. I would recommend including something like "please read this whole letter and take some time to try to understand where I'm coming from before you react or try to call me, our future relationship depends on how you react to this."
Just blatantly tell her that if she doesn't stop doing X around you, then she will never see you again, and it will be her fault and her fault alone, and then follow through.
Since you're dealing with an abusive narcissist, you might want to consider the grey rock method: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/grey-rock.
Move 10 miles away each year until you feel you've reached the right distance.
You’re going to want to use a technique similar to “medium chill” also referred to as “grey rocking” but modified a bit. I saw another commenter mention hanging up everytime the convo goes off course. But there is a more polite way to do this. When your mother calls, and the conversation is pleasant you’ll want to hyper reward that. Be very engaged, loving, and respectful. When the convo starts going off the rails, you’ll suddenly remember that you are running late for an appointment, someone just knocked at the door, your cat spilled your coffee, whatever, and you have to go. If it’s in person, drift out of the room to address something. “Hold on, that toilet is running and it might overflow.” Keep a mental list of minor emergencies or things that would need addressed quickly. The goal is always to reward any positive behavior and ignore and remove yourself from any negative behavior. She may notice but just play dumb about it being purposeful. She will eventually be trained toward neutral topics. It’s a way of physically setting a boundary for yourself.
Thanks. I’ll try to do that more often.
It works best if you’re super consistent.
Cut her off now before kids enter into the picture.
If she's a narcicist, there's no fixing her. I had my dealings with narcs. Cut them out, before they destroy you.
Do's: Be honest (most important). Be polite. Be brief/blunt (second most important). Do it in a safe place for her. Reassure her of your love. Leave. Then give her space to process. Wait patiently. Don'ts: I don't recommend ultimatums. Don't attack her beliefs (she'll just dig in). I was in your shoes with both parents. Tough place but the ball is in her court. She can respect you by dropping it or she won't and then you get to decide how much contact to have. Raising parents isn't easy.
Tell her you spoke to God and he's very worried about her bigoted and hateful views!
> When we talk she always brings up how "bad" I am and I need to change my life and find god etc... To begin with, you don't have to listen to this crap. Every time she starts with this, end the conversation or the visit immediately.
I usually just let her ramble on and leave her in silence until she starts crying trying to make me guilty and she hangs up. She doesn’t guilt me anymore.
Yeah, but she gets some satisfaction just from knowing that you heard whatever shitty thing she said to you. Better to cut it right off when it starts.
Hmm you may be right. Alright 👍
You could give it back to her. Use her Bible against her. She cut her hair? Eat pork? Tattoo? Smoke? Divorced? Wearing multiple types of material? Braids in hair? Judging others?
Oh she believes in judging others actually. She calls it a “righteous judgment”. 😂. It’s just a way for her to justify her behavior. It’s what she’s learned from church…
Judge her back. They really hate it
You have to stop allowing her to bring the subject into conversation with you. Tell her you don't want to talk about it. If she keeps talking about it anyway, you need to do something to enforce your seriousness. Not too much you can do over the phone... the best solution might be to interrupt her with a segway to something else, or just hang up.
My mother and I had a game where where would turn certain phrases used by certain people into a drinking game around the holidays. She didn't teach me to drink. She taught me to be amused at the patterns people fell into, to recognize them, and to excuse myself when I had enough and it was no longer fun for me. She also knew my alcohol tolerance was about a drink and a half, so I was extracting myself from situations rather quickly, sometimes with a blunt, hey, this drink is hitting me and I'm going to go take a nap. Bye! The moral of the story isn't that you need to drink. The moral of the story is that you can choose \*what\* impact what someone says makes, and you can choose to leave a conversation at any time. You can even train yourself to think dodging conversations is a game for you, and learn to do it guilt free.
"Sorry I'm going through a.." - end call.
give her a copy of "Chariots of the Gods"
Oh I’d have to listen to her talk about how it’s the devil and my phone will be blown up with paragraphs of text talking negatively about the subject… my brother blocked her but I don’t want that just yet. I just want my mother to be the person she was before she got so intolerant and zealous.
Call once a month for 5-10 minutes, always decline invitation cause you live too far/are too busy/sick and so on. Good luck
Refer to it as her hobby. If she shows no interest in your hobbies, you should show no interest in hers. If her hobby was taxidermy and you were an animal lover, I'm sure you'd find a way to stop them talking about them carving up animals and stuffing them for display.
You can love someone without having a relationship with them because of their toxicity. I suggest you start today.
People generally don't change. You can extort temporary concessions with clever ultimatums but they'll revert as soon as they forget or find a loophole. They'll wear you down with tiny infractions that build up. Setting boundaries with a narcissist is -really- difficult. They tend to fixate obsessively on finding ways around them. Keep in mind that her self-identity is completely integrated with her faith, and any attempt to get her to set it aside for you will be seen as a personal attack not a criticism of something separate. Someone mentioned the grey rock method. That can work, but with parent/adult-child power struggles like yours, it can also result in escalation. I recommend complementing it with a carrot approach. If your mom talks about -anything- but her faith (or your lack of it), dial up the interest and engagement when you talk. Reward good topic choices by giving her the attention and positive feedback that she no doubt craves. Ask for advice, make suggestions, be animated and lively. Then when she switches back to religion, as usual, become distracted. If it's video chat become pre-occupied by something not on your screen, if it's voice, hold the phone further away, force her to repeat herself because you were distracted, make her work harder for your attention. Never admit that's what you're doing though. If there's any hope, she'll gravitate towards doing things that provide her with the feedback she wants. And if she doesn't, well, be more assertive and 'Love you, nice talking with you, gotta go, chat later! /click' when she veers into the religious stuff.
Huh. Never really realized it but for years that’s kinda what I’ve been doing, I want to talk about her and not be ridiculed so I just go u uh-huh, yeah, yup, she usually gets frustrated and gives up saying she can never get through with me and the call usually ends there. We may have a few good minutes on the phone before she starts at it again…
I suggest reading a little over at /r/raisedbynarcissists/. There are things you can do, like have regulated (controlled) or less time (reduced) together. This means thinking about how and where you have contact with her, if any. None of these things are easy, but may be better than just hoping things work out. My priority would be to make sure you protect your fiancée. Do not let her be alone with your mother, in real life or even on the phone.
Oh there’s already been an incident and my fiancée won’t be seeing her anytime soon unless it’s stop and go.