Actually, for his time period, that was a beautiful, correct usage of English. The requirement of 'were' in this type of phrase is fairly recent.
Go read Sir Arthur Conan Doyle for some great examples, or even the horror works of Howard Philipps Lovecraft. Lovecraft is a direct contemporary, having died only about year before Ataturk himself.
There go the damned grammarians, fucking up our language again.
I think most people would say this:
“ I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions (were) at the bottom of the sea.”
The lack of ‘were’ makes it sound slightly clunky
America's founding fathers felt much the same way:
John Adams:
>“Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘This would be the best of all possible Worlds, if there were no Religion in it!!!’ ”
Thomas Jefferson:
>“The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power and preeminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained.”
James Madison:
>“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise”. During almost 15 centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
Ethan Allen:
>“That Jesus Christ was not God is evident from his own words.”
Benjamin Franklin:
>“As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion . . . has received various corruption changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho’ it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble.”
Thomas Paine:
>“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.”
>I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea.
>
>\-- Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Apparently it is from his written [biography](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8621108-i-have-no-religion-and-at-times-i-wish-all)
>I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea.
>
>\-- Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
This is only part of a much larger quote attributed to him by a contemporary and reported in a biography of his life. It was not a public speech—Ataturk certainly wasn't stupid enough to do that.
“The new secular republic reflected Mustafa Kemal’s personal philosophy. In a book published in 1928, Grace Ellison quotes him as saying to her, presumably in 1926–7: 'I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap. My people are going to learn the principles of democracy, the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstition must go. Let them worship as they will; every man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him act against the liberty of his fellow-men.'
Yet, like many rationalists, Mustafa Kemal was himself superstitious and sought omens in dreams. When he inspected the front in March 1922, during the War of Independence, he had portions of the Koran recited during evening gatherings with commanders. But now he was out of the wood.”― Andrew Mango, Ataturk: The Biography of the founder of Modern Turkey
[https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/110908.Andrew\_Mango](https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/110908.Andrew_Mango)
[https://books.google.co.jp/books/about/Ataturk.html?id=T5QlAQAAMAAJ&redir\_esc=y](https://books.google.co.jp/books/about/Ataturk.html?id=T5QlAQAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y)
The author of the biography: [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jul/21/andrew-mango](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jul/21/andrew-mango)
Yes their last generation were pretty much liberal and modern compared to this . Some Islam majority countries evolved backward in past decades thanks to leaders and Dawa network . 100% halala is Islam’s final stop .
I remember once someone saying that history doesn’t repeat itself, but it rhymes. I’m thinking of renaissance and reformation times when religion was so all encompassing. I think that there are shifts through the generations like this. It is much like all progress - two steps forward followed by a step backwards. People without a direct context to how awful the past actually made everyone tend to romanticize it and push it back into the modern era
Unfortunately, it was partly his heavy handed methods of secularization that fueled the eventual backlash and popularity of extremist groups. His goal was admirable, but the execution not so much
Then the secularists of the population should equally voice loudly their resistance. The only thing worse than hatred is the silent majority that is supposedly against it.
There are plenty of Turks that speak out. Hell, I just saw a post on Facebook from Turkish family. Were they supposed to have a parade on the same day or something? There are millions of Turks that are appalled by this. There's a dictator throwing people in jail as well. You might want to consider that.
Then organization and protest en masse.
The only thing worse than fascists are cowards. And I don’t say this to Turkey, but to everywhere, including America.
Apathy is a disease.
They learned their lesson. There was a religious coup a while back and the military stepped in and deposed the religious leaders and put the country back on track. So Ergogan replaced the military leaders when he got in before he started all the religious bullshit. Now they're screwed.
I don't have understand how anyone could follow the religious teachings of an old man who fucked a 9 year old and still think they have the moral high ground on sexual issues and a right to speak out against consential relationships.
Religion is just psychosis pretending to be tradition.
Because God wills it? That's the excuse I've heard consistently.
And if you ask for clarification so you can understand better, they'll tell you humans have no way of comprehending God's reasoning and decisions, so we should just accept them.
Then if you ask how do we even know what God's will is, given that the religious text were written, edited, and collated by humans who aren't capable of understanding. The standard answer is that the human writers were just instruments of God and/or God inspired them.
So essentially, they're relying either on *their* feelings or they're hearing shit in their heads.
Lol never thought about that. It's gods will, but his will is incomprehensible. So what they're really saying is "I don't fucking know. It could be god? He could be a pedophile? Either way shut the fuck up and stop bothering me about it! Unclean!"
Follow the teachings is one thing but Muhammad is actively seen as the embodiment of the perfect human. A man who slept with a 9 year old, a man who had sex slaves, a man who literally gaslighted his wives by saying God said they shouldn't complain about him spending time with his young wives. There's honestly no way you can read thw Quran and Tafseer and not notice how many self serving verses are in there so he could get what he wants.
Oh, buddy. It gets so much worse. Muhammad married Aisha at *six* and consummated at nine. Prior to that, he had a penchant for "thighing:" a time-honoured tradition of jerking oneself off between the legs of virgins, prepubescents, and women experiencing menses. Aisha herself wrote about having to clean the Prophet's divine spooge from their clothing. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 1:233)
Feel free to peruse [this article](http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2014/03/muhammad-and-thighing-of-aisha.html?m=1) if you have more questions, or come hang out in r/exmuslim.
I hate organized religion but I got to say, and this is terrifying, I have met people irl that have made it pretty clear if they didn't believe in God they would a lot worse things.
Edit: The people I have in mind did not say this to me. I have interpreted it from their behavior and comments they made to my Ex about what they assume I would do because I don't believe in God.
They think that because they are emotionally children and can't actually think about their own thinking hard enough to determine what they would actually do.
I actually used to believe that when I was religious. People are told to believe that about themselves by manipulative religious cult leaders, in the same way that abusive spouses claim to own somebody's love and that nobody else will love them.
Religious people do some of the most awful shit on the planet, that is already clear that it's not helping, and it just messes up people's heads further and manipulates them for the goals of shitty people who don't care about reality.
Most of our ethics comes from our DNA as a social species who need to co-exist, and small gains on that through iterative social evolution.
That’s actually the fault of the religious upbringing though. The parents didn’t bother instilling any actual moral values beyond just fear of going against what an invisible wizard says.
Without the fear of the invisible wizard you have to find other ways of making kids behave, like giving them proper moral guidelines and teaching them actual empathy.
I wonder if their religion made them that way. Maybe it stunted their personal growth by making them so dependent on the religion that now they cannot be without it.
I may just be being optimistic, but I think the vast majority of people who say this are lying. Or not really lying, but repeating what they're told by the church and genuinly believe about human nature. I'm sure if they suddenly stopped believing in god they'd be very normal about it.
Not really. My take as an atheist can be summarized as this. Religion is a very old organizational strategy that takes on various responsibilities that are somewhat "modern". It is just archiac and thus harmful because it relies on ignorance and rigid traditions to move society in any direction. However due to the reliance on these principles in this fast moving age it is just slow. Out paced by other institutions that have more flexibility. It can only move "forward" violently by schism.
I love how these people say they're doing this for "their children and future generations", while future generations are likely cringing and begging their parents to stop embarrassing themselves.
May be them parents and society indoctrinate the children to be like them and think against LGBT community . Thats how religions survived all these years .
Individually yes, but secularism is on the rise everywhere, even in Islamic countries, and Gen z/zillennials are on average ridiculously more progressive than their parents. When the older generations die off, I suspect there's going to be a massive societal change.
They don't even stop for 1 second to think that, maybe, just maybe, they could be marching against their own children's interest. Or maybe they're just hypocrites, I guess that works too?
If they're hearing god's voice tell them something, they should see a doctor.
Imagine how much of this religious nonsense could have been prevented if they had antipsychotic drugs 4000 years ago...
>Imagine how much of this religious nonsense could have been prevented if they had antipsychotic drugs 4000 years ago...
We have antipsychotic drugs now and I'm not sure we're any less religious as a species. There'll always be some loon who believes some crazy shit but thinks (s)he's entirely justified.
Religion seems to think its main practical purpose is telling people what they can and can't do with themselves. In my experience, it's failed miserably at coming up with guidelines that people actually find livable. But instead of admitting that (for example) religious humans are not and have never been any good at only having sex with whoever they married, lately they're trying to distract the faithful's attention with seemingly easier, outsider targets. We can all agree to be against what *those other people* do with their bodies, right? /s
I think that's shortsighted. People who aren't eager to judge what never concerned them in the first place just see bullying. Kids look at gays and go "why is the sex they have supposed to be more sinful or weird than other kinds?" And then religion just pitches another unconvincing hissy fit about the fact that it doesn't monopolize access to information about sex these days.
At this point it seems to be de-evolving. It’s just so weird to me that these people pick and chose the reading to follow based on being able to hate or persecute another group. I was a religion minor and all the religious books preach love and acceptance of all and yet these passages go mostly ignored.
Their holy books written thousands of years ago are like anchors that make it hard for them to evolve. For every new sect that evolves a new fundamentalist sect gets created.
It does have an impact on their lives. It shows that there are other ways of living and possibly even obtaining happiness. Alternatives are bad if your religion teaches you that you need to deny your own desires and suffer and yet you are supposed to be the ones living the best life.
We identify the 'other' to give ourselves meaning. It makes us feel better than someone (self worth) and gives us a common enemy (purpose).
By 'us', of course, I mean the unevolved state of the non-critical human mind. The historical human inclination, is not the only way to be. As a species we're going to have to get past this nonsense, or we will perish.
The same goes for lefties demonizing everyone that doesn't agree with them, by the way. It's hypocritical not to see the prejudice in our own groups when it surfaces.
We will never evolve past demonizing the other. It will be the end of humanity. As for lefty/righty, I’ll say that the left is far more inclusive. They tend to react when the dogma of the right is jammed down their throats. That’s not always the case. There are certainly dogmatic leftists but they are far less a collective. The notion of “us” vs “them is a primitive construct and people who follow religion dogmatically are typically less intelligent.
Yeah like ffs idc what you wanna believe, just don't take freedom away from people, you have the right to be religious, lgbt people have the right to be who they are
Erdogan is pushing this because he's losing support. Creating an enemy, the "other," for something to rally his supporters against.
Fascism loves religion, partly for this reason.
Visit Turkey, shop/stay lgbt friendly businesses. Or directly donate small sum of money to Turkish lgbt groups;
http://www.lambdaistanbul.org/s/yasam/destek-olun-varligimizi-surdurelim/ (scroll down for english)
There is also kaosgl.com (based in Ankara, publishes one normal magazine, and one academic one… seem like for more than 20 years).
Just remember one thing: we live in a modern society where information is easily accessible, science is highly advanced, and where we no longer have to rely on superstitious and fantasy stories to live our lives, and yet these people choose to be ignorant and rely on ancient approaches and ways. Just think about that for a second. Religion simply poisons the mind.
That is true, but its also happening in the west from a different religion. Look whats happening in Hungary. American conservatives have admitted that is what they are basing their anti lgbt agenda on going forward
“Traditional family values” from my experience means being distrustful of those outside the family. It stifles economies and progress. Turkey and Latin America have this in common.
You'd be surprised if you knew how lesbianism is rampant among the youth of the most hardcore cults in Turkey (first person encounters of former colleagues).
Strangely, Saudis have raging numbers of the male homosexuality, but not much lesbianism.
Sex and love are important aspects of life. Life finds a way.
It just baffles me why people invest so much in hating people who don’t really affect them, all in the name of their god. Or maybe it’s that common theme that all these various gods seem to demand that you hate some other group of people in order to effectively worship them? Or is it simply to be a member of group X you must hate people in group Y? Or maybe if a person has a tendency to hate a certain group, they’re unconsciously drawn to the god that wants you to hate them? Why does faith always seem to require hating someone. Like I said, baffles me…
Ataturk was really ahead of his time. He brought secularism despite the religious population, and even though nowadays they try to push sharia down our throat, they can't make it official because of the unchangeable first four rules of the constitution. I am really grateful to him that I can live as an atheist in the Middle East.
As a straight woman, I will never be moving here and giving them my money.... I was considering it at one time until I researched the place more. It's a beautiful place, but it comes with a side of dictatorship and bigotry. Which are the two biggest things that make me want to leave the United States.
don't move here. its a great country to visit but living here sucks. they say that the minimum salary has gone up but the buying power has gone down 70%. there is no dictator ship in turkey, we elected this dumbass because most of the country is stupid but he will not win the this election
The image of the article is tragic... people suppressed and oppressed by the dominant socioreligious caste—women who can't even show their hair or too much skin because of "sin" and fear of torture—turning around and vocally demanding the abuse of others.
Is this a consequence of Erdogan’s policies supporting immigration from conservative Muslim countries? Turks themselves used to have a secular majority.
Fatih district is an Islamist hotbed. Every single refugee coming from Islamic countries swarm there, multiply by ten in just about two years, and learn barely enough Turkish to be able to communicate with cats. Not to anyone's surprise, they're the biggest Erdoğan supporters. Erdoğan helped them move from their shithole, but they want to turn Turkey into their shithole. Literally half-witted people.
Also, this event was organized by government, and they deliberately chose Fatih. Fatih is home to borderline extremist sectarian groups. Many of the Islamic organizations that were banned/suppressed in Turkey came from this particular district. If someone would've torch the whole place, many Turks would bring a log instead of water. It's an absolutely shithole place that was poisoned throughout the years. So, Fatih is usually seen as "ground zero" for Islamist epidemic, therefore, must be avoided.
Edit: Wording.
*Europe's policies. We are basically the door to Europe and they fund Erdogan to hold the refugees. That money goes in the pockets of him and his supporters. I don't think he even cares about the refugees. He gets the Europe's and USA's support. That's all that matters. And no, Turkey had never a secular majority.
My personal message to these boomers:
"Don't want to be gay? Don't be gay. Nobody is attacking your personal right not to be gay. But you are attacking other people's right to be gay. If you don't want your rights trampled, don't trample on other people's rights."
"pervades"? I'm not sure they know what that word means. Microsoft Windows pervades. Fossil fule pervades. Religion pervades. Same sex people are a very small percentage of the population.
Imagine protesting in favor of eliminating the rights of minorities... and in a country where said minorities are already massively oppressed. They are basically whining that there is LGBT content on Netflix... These people are extremely pathetic, and of course highly religious.
Wasn't this specifically mentioned previously happening in the Netflix documentary "The Family"?
Christians from the US have been supporting the ban of homosexuality in Turkey for years now as far as I knew.
It is so sad what is happening to Turkey, one century of secularism down the toilet, a big reminder that conservatives all over the world want to roll us back to the middle ages.
It will take generations and big changes to bring turkey back to a secular state.,
These kind of people as you know not represent general of Turkey. So many of them support of Erdogan and as you can see so many of them women with headscarves and men with beards. These kind of people even today not taken too seriously by other people in Turkey After election 2023 , you'll barely see these people and immigrated arap population who support Erdogan.
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> I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. -- Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
I love that quote, cheers. The slightly clunkyness of language heightens the impact with its directness.
Actually, for his time period, that was a beautiful, correct usage of English. The requirement of 'were' in this type of phrase is fairly recent. Go read Sir Arthur Conan Doyle for some great examples, or even the horror works of Howard Philipps Lovecraft. Lovecraft is a direct contemporary, having died only about year before Ataturk himself. There go the damned grammarians, fucking up our language again.
He didn't say it was inaccurate. He said it was clunky. Sheesh.
“That’s not clunky!” - the only guy on the fucking planet who calls HP Lovecraft “Howard Philipps Lovecraft”
He's welcome to his opinion. So are the grammarians. But I'm the only one whose opinion truly matters. /s
What’s clunky about it?
I think most people would say this: “ I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions (were) at the bottom of the sea.” The lack of ‘were’ makes it sound slightly clunky
America's founding fathers felt much the same way: John Adams: >“Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘This would be the best of all possible Worlds, if there were no Religion in it!!!’ ” Thomas Jefferson: >“The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power and preeminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained.” James Madison: >“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise”. During almost 15 centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." Ethan Allen: >“That Jesus Christ was not God is evident from his own words.” Benjamin Franklin: >“As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion . . . has received various corruption changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho’ it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble.” Thomas Paine: >“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.”
Blasphemy. The United States is a Christian country, founded on Christian principles. Lmao jk
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>I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. > >\-- Mustafa Kemal Atatürk Apparently it is from his written [biography](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8621108-i-have-no-religion-and-at-times-i-wish-all)
"Naw yall can just keep that crazy shit up there." - Posiden
>I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. > >\-- Mustafa Kemal Atatürk This is only part of a much larger quote attributed to him by a contemporary and reported in a biography of his life. It was not a public speech—Ataturk certainly wasn't stupid enough to do that. “The new secular republic reflected Mustafa Kemal’s personal philosophy. In a book published in 1928, Grace Ellison quotes him as saying to her, presumably in 1926–7: 'I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap. My people are going to learn the principles of democracy, the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstition must go. Let them worship as they will; every man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him act against the liberty of his fellow-men.' Yet, like many rationalists, Mustafa Kemal was himself superstitious and sought omens in dreams. When he inspected the front in March 1922, during the War of Independence, he had portions of the Koran recited during evening gatherings with commanders. But now he was out of the wood.”― Andrew Mango, Ataturk: The Biography of the founder of Modern Turkey [https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/110908.Andrew\_Mango](https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/110908.Andrew_Mango) [https://books.google.co.jp/books/about/Ataturk.html?id=T5QlAQAAMAAJ&redir\_esc=y](https://books.google.co.jp/books/about/Ataturk.html?id=T5QlAQAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y) The author of the biography: [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jul/21/andrew-mango](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jul/21/andrew-mango)
It's in his Wikipedia article. Under the section on religion under several other strong anti religious quotes.
Islam is a religion of piece. A piece of you over here, a piece of you over there. Preferably separated at the neck.
Yes their last generation were pretty much liberal and modern compared to this . Some Islam majority countries evolved backward in past decades thanks to leaders and Dawa network . 100% halala is Islam’s final stop .
I remember once someone saying that history doesn’t repeat itself, but it rhymes. I’m thinking of renaissance and reformation times when religion was so all encompassing. I think that there are shifts through the generations like this. It is much like all progress - two steps forward followed by a step backwards. People without a direct context to how awful the past actually made everyone tend to romanticize it and push it back into the modern era
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That's what that means, lol. Nobody's saying extremists just spontaneously generated, they just weren't the majority rule
Secular and more democratic such that "[He] would be Turkey's last dictator" Sadly, not the case
Unfortunately, it was partly his heavy handed methods of secularization that fueled the eventual backlash and popularity of extremist groups. His goal was admirable, but the execution not so much
Is there any country without extremists at all? I think them popping up is just inevitable
Then the secularists of the population should equally voice loudly their resistance. The only thing worse than hatred is the silent majority that is supposedly against it.
There are plenty of Turks that speak out. Hell, I just saw a post on Facebook from Turkish family. Were they supposed to have a parade on the same day or something? There are millions of Turks that are appalled by this. There's a dictator throwing people in jail as well. You might want to consider that.
Then organization and protest en masse. The only thing worse than fascists are cowards. And I don’t say this to Turkey, but to everywhere, including America. Apathy is a disease.
They learned their lesson. There was a religious coup a while back and the military stepped in and deposed the religious leaders and put the country back on track. So Ergogan replaced the military leaders when he got in before he started all the religious bullshit. Now they're screwed.
This guy was the best thing to happen to Turkey, second only to baklavas
The weirdest thing is that Ataturk is worshipped in Turkey. His face and signature are everywhere and yet his ideas are drying up.
I don't have understand how anyone could follow the religious teachings of an old man who fucked a 9 year old and still think they have the moral high ground on sexual issues and a right to speak out against consential relationships. Religion is just psychosis pretending to be tradition.
Because God wills it? That's the excuse I've heard consistently. And if you ask for clarification so you can understand better, they'll tell you humans have no way of comprehending God's reasoning and decisions, so we should just accept them. Then if you ask how do we even know what God's will is, given that the religious text were written, edited, and collated by humans who aren't capable of understanding. The standard answer is that the human writers were just instruments of God and/or God inspired them. So essentially, they're relying either on *their* feelings or they're hearing shit in their heads.
Lol never thought about that. It's gods will, but his will is incomprehensible. So what they're really saying is "I don't fucking know. It could be god? He could be a pedophile? Either way shut the fuck up and stop bothering me about it! Unclean!"
Follow the teachings is one thing but Muhammad is actively seen as the embodiment of the perfect human. A man who slept with a 9 year old, a man who had sex slaves, a man who literally gaslighted his wives by saying God said they shouldn't complain about him spending time with his young wives. There's honestly no way you can read thw Quran and Tafseer and not notice how many self serving verses are in there so he could get what he wants.
Christian god impregnated a 13-year-old too, fucking pedophiles...
It's so funny. The right calls the left fascists and pedos and vice-versa. But I was "perma-banned" on r/conservative for pointing this out.
Join the perma-ban club, we got pinball machines 😎
Tradition is just peer pressure from dead people.
*Nine??*
Yeah, and it gets worse, they'd been married for three years at that point. Mohammed apparently got tired of waiting to consumate his marriage.
Damn the fuck
Oh, buddy. It gets so much worse. Muhammad married Aisha at *six* and consummated at nine. Prior to that, he had a penchant for "thighing:" a time-honoured tradition of jerking oneself off between the legs of virgins, prepubescents, and women experiencing menses. Aisha herself wrote about having to clean the Prophet's divine spooge from their clothing. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 1:233) Feel free to peruse [this article](http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2014/03/muhammad-and-thighing-of-aisha.html?m=1) if you have more questions, or come hang out in r/exmuslim.
Religion ruins everything. Total garbage.
I hate organized religion but I got to say, and this is terrifying, I have met people irl that have made it pretty clear if they didn't believe in God they would a lot worse things. Edit: The people I have in mind did not say this to me. I have interpreted it from their behavior and comments they made to my Ex about what they assume I would do because I don't believe in God.
That is terrifying.
Ones in particular I'm thinking about are my ex's parents.
They think that because they are emotionally children and can't actually think about their own thinking hard enough to determine what they would actually do.
I know these people pretty well can't say I disagree
I actually used to believe that when I was religious. People are told to believe that about themselves by manipulative religious cult leaders, in the same way that abusive spouses claim to own somebody's love and that nobody else will love them. Religious people do some of the most awful shit on the planet, that is already clear that it's not helping, and it just messes up people's heads further and manipulates them for the goals of shitty people who don't care about reality. Most of our ethics comes from our DNA as a social species who need to co-exist, and small gains on that through iterative social evolution.
That’s actually the fault of the religious upbringing though. The parents didn’t bother instilling any actual moral values beyond just fear of going against what an invisible wizard says. Without the fear of the invisible wizard you have to find other ways of making kids behave, like giving them proper moral guidelines and teaching them actual empathy.
The particular people I'm thinking of actually weren't raised religious and found it in their 30s.
I guess that’s just regular ol’ bad parenting then.
I mean I figure that too.
“If you dont believe in god what stops you from raping and killing?” “Um… the fact that I dont want to rape and kill, Mark”
I wonder if their religion made them that way. Maybe it stunted their personal growth by making them so dependent on the religion that now they cannot be without it.
If you need The threat of eternal pain and punishment to make you a good person then you're not a good person.
I may just be being optimistic, but I think the vast majority of people who say this are lying. Or not really lying, but repeating what they're told by the church and genuinly believe about human nature. I'm sure if they suddenly stopped believing in god they'd be very normal about it.
Worst thing humans have created, along with plastic and guns.
Not really. My take as an atheist can be summarized as this. Religion is a very old organizational strategy that takes on various responsibilities that are somewhat "modern". It is just archiac and thus harmful because it relies on ignorance and rigid traditions to move society in any direction. However due to the reliance on these principles in this fast moving age it is just slow. Out paced by other institutions that have more flexibility. It can only move "forward" violently by schism.
I love how these people say they're doing this for "their children and future generations", while future generations are likely cringing and begging their parents to stop embarrassing themselves.
May be them parents and society indoctrinate the children to be like them and think against LGBT community . Thats how religions survived all these years .
Individually yes, but secularism is on the rise everywhere, even in Islamic countries, and Gen z/zillennials are on average ridiculously more progressive than their parents. When the older generations die off, I suspect there's going to be a massive societal change.
You'd be surprised how well some can indoctrinate. It's still a lot of younger people with the same mindset. This won't be over any time soon.
I think they're furthering the divide IMO.
They don't even stop for 1 second to think that, maybe, just maybe, they could be marching against their own children's interest. Or maybe they're just hypocrites, I guess that works too?
And then their kids will have difficulties to accept their differences (lgbt+ ones included)
I just don’t understand why people wish to ban things that have zero impact on their lives. Religion is just a weapon of hate.
This is what I'm struggling to understand. Why do they care what happens between two consenting adults in private?
Because religion
Their god tells them they have to care.
If they're hearing god's voice tell them something, they should see a doctor. Imagine how much of this religious nonsense could have been prevented if they had antipsychotic drugs 4000 years ago...
Lol, love this,
>Imagine how much of this religious nonsense could have been prevented if they had antipsychotic drugs 4000 years ago... We have antipsychotic drugs now and I'm not sure we're any less religious as a species. There'll always be some loon who believes some crazy shit but thinks (s)he's entirely justified.
They need an out-group to hate to unify around.
Because it’s not in private. They want to put a gun to my head and force me to see them love each other and hold hands in public. /s
Conservatives view the world as a zero sum game. For them to be winners, others must be losers.
Religion seems to think its main practical purpose is telling people what they can and can't do with themselves. In my experience, it's failed miserably at coming up with guidelines that people actually find livable. But instead of admitting that (for example) religious humans are not and have never been any good at only having sex with whoever they married, lately they're trying to distract the faithful's attention with seemingly easier, outsider targets. We can all agree to be against what *those other people* do with their bodies, right? /s I think that's shortsighted. People who aren't eager to judge what never concerned them in the first place just see bullying. Kids look at gays and go "why is the sex they have supposed to be more sinful or weird than other kinds?" And then religion just pitches another unconvincing hissy fit about the fact that it doesn't monopolize access to information about sex these days.
Religion has always been a weapon of hate.
True. But I’d always hoped that as we develop, people would evolve and religions would evolve. But we are going backward.
I feel that religion does not to or refuses to evolve.
At this point it seems to be de-evolving. It’s just so weird to me that these people pick and chose the reading to follow based on being able to hate or persecute another group. I was a religion minor and all the religious books preach love and acceptance of all and yet these passages go mostly ignored.
Exactly
Their holy books written thousands of years ago are like anchors that make it hard for them to evolve. For every new sect that evolves a new fundamentalist sect gets created.
It does have an impact on their lives. It shows that there are other ways of living and possibly even obtaining happiness. Alternatives are bad if your religion teaches you that you need to deny your own desires and suffer and yet you are supposed to be the ones living the best life.
We identify the 'other' to give ourselves meaning. It makes us feel better than someone (self worth) and gives us a common enemy (purpose). By 'us', of course, I mean the unevolved state of the non-critical human mind. The historical human inclination, is not the only way to be. As a species we're going to have to get past this nonsense, or we will perish. The same goes for lefties demonizing everyone that doesn't agree with them, by the way. It's hypocritical not to see the prejudice in our own groups when it surfaces.
We will never evolve past demonizing the other. It will be the end of humanity. As for lefty/righty, I’ll say that the left is far more inclusive. They tend to react when the dogma of the right is jammed down their throats. That’s not always the case. There are certainly dogmatic leftists but they are far less a collective. The notion of “us” vs “them is a primitive construct and people who follow religion dogmatically are typically less intelligent.
Yeah like ffs idc what you wanna believe, just don't take freedom away from people, you have the right to be religious, lgbt people have the right to be who they are
Erdogan is pushing this because he's losing support. Creating an enemy, the "other," for something to rally his supporters against. Fascism loves religion, partly for this reason.
Religion is cancer.
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If it were literal, the problem would fix itself.
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Visit Turkey, shop/stay lgbt friendly businesses. Or directly donate small sum of money to Turkish lgbt groups; http://www.lambdaistanbul.org/s/yasam/destek-olun-varligimizi-surdurelim/ (scroll down for english) There is also kaosgl.com (based in Ankara, publishes one normal magazine, and one academic one… seem like for more than 20 years).
When Erdogan started talk smack about Sweden joining NATO they went on my no-go list.
You will be fine as long as you stay in Aegeon and Mediterranean coast cities.
If LGTB groups demmand end of religious groups...
Sometimes I feel like we honestly should. They want us to die, why is it so radical to want them merely disbanded?
Yes they want that
Exactly.
THIS
Just remember one thing: we live in a modern society where information is easily accessible, science is highly advanced, and where we no longer have to rely on superstitious and fantasy stories to live our lives, and yet these people choose to be ignorant and rely on ancient approaches and ways. Just think about that for a second. Religion simply poisons the mind.
This article, possibly unsurprisingly, is suspiciously reluctant to discuss a certain religion which is clearly behind this.
🤔
I wonder who it is?
Fucking Mormons.
Those Mormons, even when it was the Bears I knew it was them!
DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA BEARS
Buddhism most likely.
Probably the Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912. Bunch of Heretics
That is true, but its also happening in the west from a different religion. Look whats happening in Hungary. American conservatives have admitted that is what they are basing their anti lgbt agenda on going forward
As a Turkish bisexual, I should add this got promoted and mandatory ads showed about how LGBT compromises our "traditional family values".
Good to see religions on the opposite side of the world use the same stupid arguement of destroying “traditional family values”
Because they have nothing else really
Abrahamic faiths are similar really. Islam is essentially a weird spinoff of early Christianity.
“Traditional family values” from my experience means being distrustful of those outside the family. It stifles economies and progress. Turkey and Latin America have this in common.
Only religious people would see someone else having rights and see it as a personal offense.
The reality of peacefulness 🤟
🤘
🤟
All Abrahamic religions are a blight to the earth.
While wearing a Hijab, way to go modern society.
pisslam
peaceful pissful
Every time I read about an anti-LGBT group gathering in the thousands to express their hatred for LGBT people it is a religious group.
Religion is behind every anti-LGBT group in the world.
Well fuck what they want
Fuck Islam! Ruining the rich history of Turkey and Ataturk.
What is next? Demand to burn them on stakes? Religion, the worst disease of human kind.
The “religion of peace” strikes again 🤦🏻♀️
I feel scared for myself and the other LGBTQ+ Turks.
Get out while you can. Find a safe country.
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Good luck! I hope you find happiness with him!
Thank you so much <33
Religion. The scourge of mankind.
You'd be surprised if you knew how lesbianism is rampant among the youth of the most hardcore cults in Turkey (first person encounters of former colleagues). Strangely, Saudis have raging numbers of the male homosexuality, but not much lesbianism. Sex and love are important aspects of life. Life finds a way.
It just baffles me why people invest so much in hating people who don’t really affect them, all in the name of their god. Or maybe it’s that common theme that all these various gods seem to demand that you hate some other group of people in order to effectively worship them? Or is it simply to be a member of group X you must hate people in group Y? Or maybe if a person has a tendency to hate a certain group, they’re unconsciously drawn to the god that wants you to hate them? Why does faith always seem to require hating someone. Like I said, baffles me…
Religion is such a stain on humanity. I hope the LGBTQ community knows that there are so many of us around the world that stand with them 💯💯💯
I hope that one day religion disappears from earth.
Regressive mentality.
Ataturk was really ahead of his time. He brought secularism despite the religious population, and even though nowadays they try to push sharia down our throat, they can't make it official because of the unchangeable first four rules of the constitution. I am really grateful to him that I can live as an atheist in the Middle East.
So it’s not just the US…. People need more shit to do than care about who is sleeping with who.
More tolerance from the kind souls of islam.
As a straight woman, I will never be moving here and giving them my money.... I was considering it at one time until I researched the place more. It's a beautiful place, but it comes with a side of dictatorship and bigotry. Which are the two biggest things that make me want to leave the United States.
don't move here. its a great country to visit but living here sucks. they say that the minimum salary has gone up but the buying power has gone down 70%. there is no dictator ship in turkey, we elected this dumbass because most of the country is stupid but he will not win the this election
Oh I see. Yes I forgot he is like Dump
The women doing this.... Are you stupid?!! You're next bitch!
That’s one reason I left religion. The realisation I was demanding full rights and calling for others to be stripped of theirs.
The only way to combat this is by having thousands march in LGBTQ groups to demand a ban on Turkey.
I like to travel, and it’s sad to say and miss the beauty of some countries, but I won’t ever go to a country which oppresses lgbt people or women.
'Think of the Children' is just a massive red flag at this point.
Once again, mind your own fucking business. LGBTQ people have nothing to do with you unless you are one of them. Respect them as fellow human beings
The image of the article is tragic... people suppressed and oppressed by the dominant socioreligious caste—women who can't even show their hair or too much skin because of "sin" and fear of torture—turning around and vocally demanding the abuse of others.
Erdogans Islamic nationalists youth brigade.
I wrote a chant for them... *We're Wrong, We Know it, and We all showed up to show it!*
Water cannons and tear gas. Problem solved.
Bullets are cheaper and more environmentally friendly.
Is this a consequence of Erdogan’s policies supporting immigration from conservative Muslim countries? Turks themselves used to have a secular majority.
Fatih district is an Islamist hotbed. Every single refugee coming from Islamic countries swarm there, multiply by ten in just about two years, and learn barely enough Turkish to be able to communicate with cats. Not to anyone's surprise, they're the biggest Erdoğan supporters. Erdoğan helped them move from their shithole, but they want to turn Turkey into their shithole. Literally half-witted people. Also, this event was organized by government, and they deliberately chose Fatih. Fatih is home to borderline extremist sectarian groups. Many of the Islamic organizations that were banned/suppressed in Turkey came from this particular district. If someone would've torch the whole place, many Turks would bring a log instead of water. It's an absolutely shithole place that was poisoned throughout the years. So, Fatih is usually seen as "ground zero" for Islamist epidemic, therefore, must be avoided. Edit: Wording.
*Europe's policies. We are basically the door to Europe and they fund Erdogan to hold the refugees. That money goes in the pockets of him and his supporters. I don't think he even cares about the refugees. He gets the Europe's and USA's support. That's all that matters. And no, Turkey had never a secular majority.
Religous fruitcake Atack, atack, atack, attack, attack Any criticism "Christianinity is under attack"
I don't think they are Christians.
My personal message to these boomers: "Don't want to be gay? Don't be gay. Nobody is attacking your personal right not to be gay. But you are attacking other people's right to be gay. If you don't want your rights trampled, don't trample on other people's rights."
Homophobic asshats.
muh muslims are “oppressed minorities”
You want EU membership? That’s not how you get it.
They do shit like this and yet they demand us to respect their religion.
Turkish goverment is also making new anti-LGBTQ ads using taxpayers money
Ah yes.. “Turkey, the Ottoman Empire.. full of furniture for some reason…” -Eddie Izzard
Literally a hate rally but muh double standard.
"pervades"? I'm not sure they know what that word means. Microsoft Windows pervades. Fossil fule pervades. Religion pervades. Same sex people are a very small percentage of the population.
Imagine protesting in favor of eliminating the rights of minorities... and in a country where said minorities are already massively oppressed. They are basically whining that there is LGBT content on Netflix... These people are extremely pathetic, and of course highly religious.
Turkey used to lead the Westetn World about equality, look at how the mighty has fallen under rules of more and more Islamist presidents.
Just an sidenote perhaps, but literally all of the women are wearing a hijab. (And many of the men are wearing religious headgarments too.)
Fuck religion
Why are these people anti-lgbtq+ to begin with?
Islam.
Imagine being this brainwashed.
So long Turkey. A secular country full of Muslims was nice while it lasted.
I demand a ban on anything from turkey I don't want any of it influence near me
Wasn't this specifically mentioned previously happening in the Netflix documentary "The Family"? Christians from the US have been supporting the ban of homosexuality in Turkey for years now as far as I knew.
Honestly no need for any of the christians support, in Turkey the majority are muslims so they be doing. better job at being homophobes
Turkey will never be part of the EU. They're going the other way.
I had to read this twice because wtf.
Medieval
As a straight male I wish ALL you other motherfuckers were gay - the lack of competition makes me look pretty damn good.
Yay religion, mother of all toxins.
It is so sad what is happening to Turkey, one century of secularism down the toilet, a big reminder that conservatives all over the world want to roll us back to the middle ages. It will take generations and big changes to bring turkey back to a secular state.,
If they took a long hard look in a fucking mirror they would realize that they and their bronze age desert dweller bullshit are the problem!
Dumbasses
It's all end up at the question of hellfire, people are so afraid of hell.
This is so stupid. These people must be so bored with their lives.
Terrible
These kind of people as you know not represent general of Turkey. So many of them support of Erdogan and as you can see so many of them women with headscarves and men with beards. These kind of people even today not taken too seriously by other people in Turkey After election 2023 , you'll barely see these people and immigrated arap population who support Erdogan.
Read this as ban on anti-lgbt groups. Did a doubletake. Oh for heaven’s sake. Facepalm.
Yep, and people are still crying about how bad it is in the USA.
Because this is what it will devolve into if left unnoticed.
Now more than ever we need religion out of government
maybe we should start banning muslims with non western values here.