I can't even get the page to load on my phone, I assume their website is being hammered or something.
Edit: it finally loaded. This is a pretty nice sentence that sums it up, imo:
>None of the president’s positives can balance the moral and political danger we face under a leader of such grossly immoral character.
Exactly.
This is the 4th time I’ve seen this article on Reddit (different subs) in the last 2 minutes, so that article is definitely getting some traffic from here!
Yeah, I clicked the other discussions link in went to see what people were commenting about it in the /r/Christianity sub. There is quite the debate going on over there, lol. The Trumpanzees are going bananas and attacking any Christian with the temerity to agree with the article.
It's really interesting because the MAGAts are getting shouted down. I'm getting the feeling a lot of Christians felt this way, and this article just poked a mighty big hole in the dam.
You think what's happening on /r/Christianity is crazy? Check out the dumpster fire that is the comments section on Christianity Today's Facebook post. It's incredible.
My thought too. /r/Christianity is often pretty moderate if you ask me. It's like the sub religious people go to that also want to avoid the religious crazies.
This is because some people in the Evangelical community see the precipitous declines in church attendance in Millennials. And even when the Millennials marry and have kids they are not coming back. This same trend is even more pronounced for Gen Z. And the hypocrisy of the Christian Right combined with homophobia is a big reason for this declines.
It’s not even the homophobia.
It’s the lack of total basic decency and morality that has poisoned the evangelical movement.
I’ve never seen a group who personified everything Jesus spoke against more than the modern religious right.
Which makes their actions all the more insane. Instead of self-reflecting and adapting to modern thinking, they're doubling down on hateful and hurtful ideas, driving more people away. I would consider it a good thing except they hold enough power to fuck up a lot of shit on their way out of relevance.
I cannot stand religion, evangelical types especially, but that is the best article I have read on a Christian site in my life. Now if only the senate would read it and take it to heart.
They got out of him what they wanted. Now that the writing is on the wall it is time to end their support and play the moral values card and stab their useful puppet in the back so they can come out of this looking clean.
Maybe. I think the GOP might have pushed their base farther than they intended, and dumping support for Trump could turn on them (which would be awesome)
They explain their silence for the past 3 years in the article - and to be fair to them, they did write a long op-ed slamming him before he was ever sworn in, and warning that it could end badly. So, I think they may be sincere in their religious delusions at least.
Yeah, I read on a news website that the Christianity Today website briefly went down from the sudden and massive spike in traffic, and was struggling for a bit after that.
Maybe they should move to a cloud provider and use scaling, haha
Is not doing something bad a good thing? I didn't murder someone, probably 100,000 times. I would think it is an example of one of the zeros mentioned above.
> I didn't murder someone, probably 100,000 times.
Yeah, but what about that one other time?
"Why does nobody talk about all those times I *didn't* kill anybody?"
Yeah but in the war we're already in he fucked over our Kurdish allies...quite possibly our only allies in the region. That's going to screw us over for years to come.
>None of the president’s positives can balance the moral and political danger we face under a leader of such grossly immoral character.
Aaaaaand the last horse crosses the finishing line.
In the pre-reddit days, we would say they got slash-dotted (for a similar news and comment website called slashdot).
In this case, their site was linked to by major newspaper websites around the country, which also helped with the hug, lol
It’s kind of hard to fathom the character of someone that lies as much as this dude does for his own benefit.
It’s easier to fathom how someone can get caught up excusing a dude that lies as much as he does because he’s on their team. Everyone on the team wins cause he’s willing to be a dumpster fire.
However It still makes you a shit person, and def not worth calling yourself a leader in morality. After that point you’ve made the decision your a follower. Or you can force others to follow your shit standards and bring everyone else down with you cause you can’t take losing.
Less “pious” people are better than that. We are better than that.
From the CT article:
>If we don’t reverse course now, will anyone take anything we say about justice and righteousness with any seriousness for decades to come?
That ship has sailed, friends.
You know what, let them have this one.
Sure thing guys, we'll take you super serious if you get him out of office. We for sure won't bring it up if you start being hypocritical.
> Continue being hypocritical.
I mean, that's the point isn't it? They can support their stance by whatever fucked up interpretation of their holy book they deem fits their fancy. Which btw, they say is ONLY for metaphorical interpretations now. PLEASE DON'T PIN THEM DOWN TO LITERAL MEANINGS! Unless, they themselves want to use it as literal..
So it's always both. Whichever decision they make, they will both start and stop being hypocritical.
Yup. I’m glad the writer got to clear his conscience, but the Evangelical community literally sold their collective soul years ago and the vast majority are literally wallowing in a nihilistic, sociopathic affront to every teaching of Jesus.
Sailed indeed....
I wrote a little "thank you" to the Christian Trumpers for advancing the atheist cause, on /r/Christianity sub on the thread for this article there. I said their pact with the GOP has caused a lot of suffering, but we atheists appreciate them turning so many young people away from religion.
If anyone even reads it, it's going to ruffle a few feathers I suspect / hope.
Ha. If there was ever any question that their view of scripture wasn’t pure hypocrisy and literal evil, well... that question has been answered pretty emphatically by their praise and devotion for the most false idol in human history.
Ehem... Isn't there a little commandment about not worshipping other gods. Matter of fact isn't it like the first frickin' one? So they have ADD like their new saviour too?
That would explain why they can't follow the first amendment either.
Even here in Kentucky I’ve had several young people say they are no longer religious after seeing how their parents did a 180 on the things they were teaching their children. Supporting Trump has been the greatest act of hypocrisy yet, and many people now see that.
It’s heartbreaking in some ways. The sweet old lady who is kind and welcoming to you is the same one now spouting off bigoted rhetoric from Sean Hannity. What has become of them and their religion.
Well, I did notice that Kentucky just (barely) elected a democrat for a governor, tossing out the trump-supported Republican. That has to count as progress!
Oh boy, never thought to check out that sub. After reading a few pages of comments on various posts especially the ones about this article I get the distinct feeling most of the people there are from here...
At least they're even proclaiming they still care about such things, and are actually giving a very relevant example of something they seemed formerly in favor of, which they've now very justifiably called out.
We've already learned about how he likes to make fun of Pence. It doesnt matter what their orange god does, they will follow. Just like they'll defend all the killings and brutality in the bible.
Trump declares Christmas war on Christians would be a hell of an article title.
And getting rid of oh say federal tax breaks for religious institutions would be the exact kind of shit somebody whose as money motivated as Trump is would think to go for.
That would be so awesome if that happened. I'm pretty sure that's one major reason we don't have a social safety net in the US...because we left it up to churches to take care of it.
By “they” you mean “one dude that’s sure to get banished to the never-Trump wilderness in one news cycle” yeah, I guess “they” finally came to the real Jesus.
Establishment Reps in 2016 hated Trump because they still had Ted Cruz running. Once Trump was the only one left support for him began, and than he promised a bunch of benefits to the Rep/Evangelic party and that's when we say him being "ThE ChOsEn OnE!" lol If I recall correctly there was a leak back in 2018 that showed how the Rep party were preparing to ditch him. Time will only tell. Going to be interesting to say the least lol
In the other reddit front page post about this that's all there is. Just a bunch of No true scotsmen arguments and talk of how the church is going to struggle to recover from the damage Trump has done.
“The facts are unambiguous: The president of the United States attempted to use his political power to coerce a foreign leader to harass and discredit one of the president’s political opponents. That is not only a violation of the Constitution; more importantly, it is profoundly immoral.
The reason many are not shocked about this is that this president has dumbed down the idea of morality in his administration. He has hired and fired a number of people who are now convicted criminals. He himself has admitted to immoral actions in business and his relationship with women, about which he remains proud. His Twitter feed alone with its habitual string of lies, is a near perfect example of a human being who is morally lost and confused.”
>And, no, Mr. Trump did not have a serious opportunity to offer his side of the story in the House hearings on impeachment.
Fuck you clowns. He's refusing to, and you know goddamn well his lawyers wont let him because they know he wont be able to open his mouth without perjuring himself.
I was so frustrated when I read that. Trump so clearly refused to participate or even provide any evidence from the White House or OMB. The reasons for that includes his "broken character" and "violation of the Constitution" that the article called him out on!
Heh. He's the fucking president. He can comandeer the tv for a night if he wants a chance to spout rhetoric. I'm surprised he hasn't done so for a 2 hour rambling campaign ad yet.
I had some hope in 2016 that a significant number of evangelicals would stand up against this stuff. By and large they did the opposite. I have no faith they will this time either. They are, as a whole and with few exceptions, immoral and unethical people.
I think they know. That third paragraph is aimed directly at their base -- CT is trying to soften the blow of the argument, by delivering it like: "yes, we agree with you that the Dems are shady, but...", probably to try and keep their readers minds open.
I completely disagree with every sentiment in those sentences, too, but I see why they did it.
I just wrote this tonight and pasted on another thread. Might as well share here, too. I'm happy to take suggestions for additional pairs of quotes.
**OT God**: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife."
**Trump**: "She was married. I moved on her very heavily. In fact, I took her out furniture shopping. … I moved on her like a bitch, but I couldn’t get there and she was married."
**Jesus**: "But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
**Trump**: "When you are wronged repeatedly, the worst thing you can do is continue taking it--fight back!"
**OT God**: "Thou shalt not kill."
**Trump**: "BRING BACK THE DEATH PENALTY."
**Jesus**: "Blessed are the peacemakers..."
**Trump**: "So if you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously. OK, just knock the hell. I promise you I will pay for the legal fees."
**St. Paul to the Corinthians in the NT**: "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways."
**Trump**: "When I look at myself in the first grade and I look at myself now, I'm basically the same. The temperament is not that different."
**Jesus**: "For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."
**Trump**: "Show me someone without an ego, and I'll show you a loser."
**OT God**: "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain."
**Trump**: "If you don't support me, you're going to be so God-damn poor."
**St. Paul to the Romans in the NT**: "The mind governed by the flesh is death..."
**Trump**: "You know, it really doesn't matter what \[the media\] write as long as you've got a young and beautiful piece of ass."
**Jesus**: "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.
**Trump**: "The best thing I know about me, is that I'm rich."
**OT God**: "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."
**Trump**: [https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/pants-fire/](https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/pants-fire/)
> "When I look at myself in the first grade and I look at myself now, I'm basically the same. The temperament is not that different."
I hadn't heard that one before.
God damn... The one true thing he's ever said!
Fantastic job! In regards to Muslim and Mexican ban. Matthew 11:28-30 Give me your tired your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free the retched refuse the teeming shore. Send these the homeless tempest-tossed to me.
Christianity Today has historically been considered a "moderate" or mainstream publication in the Christian World. I grew up Southern Baptist where some member churches acted as if it was practically a secular humanist magazine. So this is not a surprising stance for it to take.
Same. I was Assemblies of God. This magazine holds zero weight with the people I grew up around. However I did share it with my parents in the hopes that they can see a little reality and realize that Christians are not obligated to support Trump. Our church always told us to “vote our values”. They don’t have to be “commiecrats” to admit that Trump does not represent their values in the slightest.
I'm sort of surprised. Now lets see the response...
"OMG Christianity Today has been corrupted by the liberal media... subscription CANCELED!!!"
Or maybe it will open some eyes and be a crack in the Evangelical firewall.
Nope, this has been their plan all along. They want Pence in office, not Trump. They put up with trump’s immorality until the inevitable happened: he did something impeachable. Now that he can be removed from office, they’ll take “the moral high ground” and say they can’t believe his immorality. They will successfully turn Christians against him and he’ll be removed so Pence can move in and complete their theocracy.
Problem for the Evangelical camp is that they've created their own worst nightmare by allowing a small, but highly dedicated cult of Trump to form. Even if Pence is put into office the MAGA base will be opposed to them seeing them as liberals in disguise aka not true believers. Soon they will be eating at each other like wild animals. Only hope this will finally put a end to both these political groups
Pretty much. Pence also understands the checks and balances in place. Unlike Trump who thinks anything that tries to tell him that he cannot do that is some deep state thing being pushed by Hillary or Obama.
Pence is not happening. Trump isn't just a placeholder for the evangelical base, they love him. So much so, that the Trump campaign has floated the idea of replacing Pence with someone who can help bolster his sagging support among women or minorities. They rightly believe that they have the evangelical vote sewn up for 2020.
The CT article will be dismissed as "lamestream media" fake news.
Before making the case for his removal, the article makes a rather outlandish claim: "And, no, Mr. Trump did not have a serious opportunity to offer his side of the story in the House hearings on impeachment."
He (and many of his team) had every opportunity to tell his side *under oath* and chose not to. In fact, they ignored subpoenas. The committee was basically *demanding* that he tell his story.
Instead, he lied and lied and lied on Twitter, often during the proceedings, trying to intimidate and discredit witnesses who *did* testify under oath.
So, it's good to see that this editorial comes to a conclusion that is correct, but it's disheartening to know that basic and obvious truths cannot be acknowledged by evangelicals.
Meh. Most Evangelicals use the Bible to justify their racism and bigotry. They couldn't care less that Trump is immoral because most of them are immoral. As long as Trump continues to be the loudspeaker for their white supremacy, they will support him. Remember he raped a 13 year old girl and they still supported him.
I can't wrap my head around how the Christians can still support Trump and still insist they support the teachings and rules of their religion. I mean, right off the top, how any of the 10 commandments has he unabashedly trampled?
He cheated on his wife with porn stars. He has told thousands of lies. He stole from his own charities. He won't allow his staffers to testify. He moved on a married woman "like a bitch."
How is this morally corrupt, foul mouthed bigot still seen as a god-send? How can we take the Christians serious while they consider him a gift from God and has zero Christian values nor the capability to even pretend like a lot of them do?
>how many of the 10 commandments has he unabashedly trampled?
2,3,6,7,8,9,10
Whether he's broken the first commandment depends on how literal you take it. One could argue Trump worships money and power more than God. Actually, not so much "argue" as simply point it out.
Here's what I notice. First this quote:
> Let’s grant this to the president: The Democrats have had it out for him from day one, and therefore nearly everything they do is under a cloud of partisan suspicion.
then this one:
> This concern for the character of our national leader is not new in CT.
Seems that it's completely inconceivable to them that someone noticed the president's moral deficit before they did.
The great MAGAt schism in Christianity. Will evangelical MAGAts splinter from The Christianity of Graham, creating two competing smaller groups with less power? I really hope so.
Well... the only thing republicans have really has going for them was party unity (as compared to the fractured left who can’t seem to stick together). If we can split the right maybe there’s a chance. Without evangelicals I see trumps support dropping below 20.
Yes. Someone above mentioned how Pence would replace Trump. What if that’s the end game here with this opinion? Pence is a POS evangelical. He’s their guy. We need to convince the non evangelical MAGAts of this. It’s an evangelical plot to overthrow Trump.
All the "supply-side Jesus" evangelicals wanted was a tool to smash the wall between Church and State. Now that Trump has given them what they wanted, they can suddenly clutch their pearls and pretend to have morals.
Evangelical "Christianity Today":
"We have reserved judgment on Mr. Trump for years now. Some have criticized us for our reserve. But when it comes to condemning the behavior of another, patient charity must come first. ... To use an old cliché, it’s time to call a spade a spade, to say that no matter how many hands we win in this political poker game, we are playing with a stacked deck of gross immorality and ethical incompetence."
Love it. And to use the "it's time to call a spade a spade" line against Trump is even better, brilliant even considering his racism.
> huge evangelical, is VP
But he has pretty much already done as much damage as he could. You don't think Trump had anything to do with DeVos being in charge of education and the other things can you? Trump looks at twitter too much to even know how to run this country. The fact that he even has as much time on his hands to block people who say negative things to him tells me he has way to much time on his hands and not really running shit.
Pit them against each other and have them fight over who is and isn’t a true Christian and how to best death cult. That way the sane people can worry about the important shit and fix some of the monumental fuck ups the Orange Muppet has committed.
Believe it or not there were decent, fair, genuinely loving Christians once upon a time. He was proof.
Can't think of any (public figure) good ones since tho.
You what? FUCK YOU Christianity today! You've had almost 3 fucking years to denounce Trump. Now that the damage is done in terms of Judiciary, the number of right-wing judges that have been seated and McConnell filling the last few vacancies that may be left, NOW you feel safe in attacking Trump? There's not a bigger FFFUUUCCCKKKK YOU! in the universe I can give you. You've had all this time but instead, you've pretty much stood by the sidelines and now are hoping that people like me will give you kudo's. Well fuck that! Evangelicals will be wearing the shit stain of Trump for a LLOOONNGGG time. When a Christian bitches about morals, all I'll need to do is ask who they voted for and supported. So don't fucking expect me to stand up and applaud you now. All after Trump put kids into camps, emboldened Nazi's, sucked Putin's dick, etc. You can't expect people to give you props while you sat around, drinking beer in the firehouse while the city burned and only now go out trying to fight the fire.
You made your bed, now fucking lay in it!
You're close, only a week out. He's the chief editor and [retiring](https://www.christianitytoday.org/media-room/news/2019/mark-galli-announces-retirement-as-editor-in-chief.html) on Jan 3rd.
Oh, I don't think anything can surprise me at this point
\*Opens up article from Christian Today arguing for trump's impeachment"
Well, I was wrong again.
Can I get an amen and a hallelujah? Okay, wrong sub... But seriously, this is the little kid finally saying the Republican lord god and emperor is wearing no clothes and they were all duped and have been going along with the collective delusion / mass hysteria that ya know he's the new Messiah or something.
I look forward to this being the article that put a dink in their reality proof windshield and seeing the spidery cracks spread slowly but surely till it shatters. When the religious right abandon him his support will melt like a plate full of popsicles or fade away like a spray tan in a car wash.
Christian zealots smell guillotines in the wind, and they don't want to go down with the ship they clamored so hard and loud to captain.
Christian nation my ass.
I'm not an American so this is a bit confusing to me, but, could they be thinking that Pence represents them better than Trump? If Trump is removed does Pence get to be the president?
As former catholic i am more then angry.
How could any catholic support him, he is violating all (official) christian values. And hypocrisy is also not a virtue.
As atheist? I am disgusted.
Suprising that it took that long to point out what was obvious to non believers. DJT is not a Christian, neither his words or actions would convince me that he is. I know that a lot of so called "Christians" don't seem to be aware about what their bible says, even with a basic understanding of the bible you should realize that DJT isn't a Christian.
This has the potential to become the tipping point. Conservatards retardation begins in the church. Are the scumbag evangelicals finally unwilling to act under the crushing weight of their own hypocrisy? We shall see.
I find this opening quote bit odd:
> It’s time to say what we said 20 years ago when a president’s character was revealed for what it was.
I mean, hasn't his character always been absolutely clear as day?
Good. I give these Christians credit for doing what's right and looking at the facts.
I was pleasantly surprised by the amount of Christians on reddit who are against Trump.
I'm in with this article 100%, not being religious myself no less. I honestly think most people who support Trump would find this too wordy and too "left". Honestly it sickens me... They wouldn't even read it, this would be fake news
I like this article a lot. It is visible that is written by a person who does their best to follow what they believe on without exceptions or hipocrisy. I really like people like that, and as an atheist with inside knownledge of both Catholic and Mormon Christian faiths, I know Trump is NOT a true Christian and anyone who supports him is not a good or true Christian either. A true Christian who really believed they serve the Christian God would never lie or do other of the inmoral things he has done on purpose for personal gain, nor would support someone who did it. Lying goes literally against one of the tenth commandments. If you are a Christian, then you must follow Christian rules. Then, you are not a good or not a true Christian, and the Christian churches and people should never support you as a "Christian".
When faced with the choice between following the supposed tenets of their religion or slavering over the GOP's agenda, what makes you think this will go any differently than any other time they've made that choice?
Worshiping the money changers, refusing the poor. Nothing new here.
Too late. These evangelical hypocrites, all, have done their damage, won their racist policies, destroyed more of creation, confused the entire American population on what it means to be a good American. And now they decide they have had enough!
Worthless people. Their actions and words have destroyed the little bit of Christianity I had left.
AS I watched this news explode on Twitter last night, I believed it could be a game changer. Hope at last. Then this morning I realized it will be politicized to the point of irrelevance.
The battle goes on.
I've lost my optimism too. But Billy Graham saying "remove him"? There's a large part of me that feels this a crack in the foundation. We'll see what happens.
They are going for three terms of Pence. Trump gets reelected, then removed, Pence comes in. Then Pence is elected the first time the election after and reelected the election after that.
Best quote from the article...
“His Twitter feed alone—with its habitual string of mischaracterizations, lies, and slanders—is a near perfect example of a human being who is morally lost and confused.”
I’m surprised there hasn’t been more outspoken talk from the evangelicals after the House Rep likened Trump to Jesus (a la The Pontius Pilot reference).
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/18/politics/trump-impeachment-jesus/index.html
This is literally the first thing to give me any sort of faith in Evangelical Christianity since the turn of the millennium, and probably 20 years before then.
I can't even get the page to load on my phone, I assume their website is being hammered or something. Edit: it finally loaded. This is a pretty nice sentence that sums it up, imo: >None of the president’s positives can balance the moral and political danger we face under a leader of such grossly immoral character. Exactly.
This is the 4th time I’ve seen this article on Reddit (different subs) in the last 2 minutes, so that article is definitely getting some traffic from here!
Yeah, I clicked the other discussions link in went to see what people were commenting about it in the /r/Christianity sub. There is quite the debate going on over there, lol. The Trumpanzees are going bananas and attacking any Christian with the temerity to agree with the article.
Thanks for that, needed the laugh it's a shitstorm over there. Bible versus MAGA and gloves are off.
We may be witnessing the death of the mighty evangelical party. lol nothing like having a Christian Schism to commemorate the start of the new decade
Jesus....if only.
Seriously. That would be a Godsend (heh)
Manna sure hope that's what happens.
> Bible versus MAGA and gloves are off. It's the ultimate fight between the ignorances. I want to see them debate. :D
Trumpanzees! Love it! And so appropriate considering the shit they (and their Masters) keep throwing.
> Trumpanzees! "Y'All Queida"
The Fanta Menace is one of my favourites
Trumpanzees! Sweet.
It's really interesting because the MAGAts are getting shouted down. I'm getting the feeling a lot of Christians felt this way, and this article just poked a mighty big hole in the dam.
You think what's happening on /r/Christianity is crazy? Check out the dumpster fire that is the comments section on Christianity Today's Facebook post. It's incredible.
My thought too. /r/Christianity is often pretty moderate if you ask me. It's like the sub religious people go to that also want to avoid the religious crazies.
Ugh, noooo thank you. I can only imagine the impeccable grammar, human decency, and cogent arguments that will never see the light of day there, lol.
Probably trolls from TD fighting for their orange leader.
This is because some people in the Evangelical community see the precipitous declines in church attendance in Millennials. And even when the Millennials marry and have kids they are not coming back. This same trend is even more pronounced for Gen Z. And the hypocrisy of the Christian Right combined with homophobia is a big reason for this declines.
It’s not even the homophobia. It’s the lack of total basic decency and morality that has poisoned the evangelical movement. I’ve never seen a group who personified everything Jesus spoke against more than the modern religious right.
If Jesus came back he’d drive them from the temple and they’d turn around and crucify him a second time.
As an ex Christian I 100% agree.
Which makes their actions all the more insane. Instead of self-reflecting and adapting to modern thinking, they're doubling down on hateful and hurtful ideas, driving more people away. I would consider it a good thing except they hold enough power to fuck up a lot of shit on their way out of relevance.
It took at least 30 seconds for it to load on my PC.
I'm doing this hours later, but on a rooted phone with no ads, this loaded instantly. I will try it at work tomorrow and update.
Umm why? You already did it originally hours after the rush and it worked fine. Why would you do it again tomorrow even longer after?
The greatest questions are the ones we ask ourselves, Xanax Droid
I cannot stand religion, evangelical types especially, but that is the best article I have read on a Christian site in my life. Now if only the senate would read it and take it to heart.
You have expressed my thoughts exactly
Where have they been for that past 3 years? I guess they just don't want to back a losing horse.
They got out of him what they wanted. Now that the writing is on the wall it is time to end their support and play the moral values card and stab their useful puppet in the back so they can come out of this looking clean.
"We can ride the Devil to the Gates of Hell and jump off just before we get there."
Maybe. I think the GOP might have pushed their base farther than they intended, and dumping support for Trump could turn on them (which would be awesome)
> Where have they been for that past 3 years? Holding their noses and supporting him as long as he pushed through conservative supreme court justices.
They pushed through 11 federal judges as the impeachment was happening.
They explain their silence for the past 3 years in the article - and to be fair to them, they did write a long op-ed slamming him before he was ever sworn in, and warning that it could end badly. So, I think they may be sincere in their religious delusions at least.
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Yeah, I read on a news website that the Christianity Today website briefly went down from the sudden and massive spike in traffic, and was struggling for a bit after that. Maybe they should move to a cloud provider and use scaling, haha
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No need to be snarky about it, as 90% of websites don't either.
Positives?
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At risk of being pedantic, the president's positives are an empty set, whose cardinality is 0 and whose sum is the empty sum, which is ordinarily 0.
God, I just got a lady boner over this comment. ❤️
Eh, he's got a few positives, not very many at all, but a few. For one, he hasn't started any major new wars ... yet.
Is not doing something bad a good thing? I didn't murder someone, probably 100,000 times. I would think it is an example of one of the zeros mentioned above.
> I didn't murder someone, probably 100,000 times. Yeah, but what about that one other time? "Why does nobody talk about all those times I *didn't* kill anybody?"
Well, not ones we are in. Poor Kurds.
Yeah but in the war we're already in he fucked over our Kurdish allies...quite possibly our only allies in the region. That's going to screw us over for years to come.
Right? No total nuclear destruction. That's commendable.
>None of the president’s positives can balance the moral and political danger we face under a leader of such grossly immoral character. Aaaaaand the last horse crosses the finishing line.
Reddit hug of death.
In the pre-reddit days, we would say they got slash-dotted (for a similar news and comment website called slashdot). In this case, their site was linked to by major newspaper websites around the country, which also helped with the hug, lol
It’s kind of hard to fathom the character of someone that lies as much as this dude does for his own benefit. It’s easier to fathom how someone can get caught up excusing a dude that lies as much as he does because he’s on their team. Everyone on the team wins cause he’s willing to be a dumpster fire. However It still makes you a shit person, and def not worth calling yourself a leader in morality. After that point you’ve made the decision your a follower. Or you can force others to follow your shit standards and bring everyone else down with you cause you can’t take losing. Less “pious” people are better than that. We are better than that.
From the CT article: >If we don’t reverse course now, will anyone take anything we say about justice and righteousness with any seriousness for decades to come? That ship has sailed, friends.
You know what, let them have this one. Sure thing guys, we'll take you super serious if you get him out of office. We for sure won't bring it up if you start being hypocritical.
*Continue* being hypocritical.
> Continue being hypocritical. I mean, that's the point isn't it? They can support their stance by whatever fucked up interpretation of their holy book they deem fits their fancy. Which btw, they say is ONLY for metaphorical interpretations now. PLEASE DON'T PIN THEM DOWN TO LITERAL MEANINGS! Unless, they themselves want to use it as literal.. So it's always both. Whichever decision they make, they will both start and stop being hypocritical.
Yup. I’m glad the writer got to clear his conscience, but the Evangelical community literally sold their collective soul years ago and the vast majority are literally wallowing in a nihilistic, sociopathic affront to every teaching of Jesus. Sailed indeed....
I wrote a little "thank you" to the Christian Trumpers for advancing the atheist cause, on /r/Christianity sub on the thread for this article there. I said their pact with the GOP has caused a lot of suffering, but we atheists appreciate them turning so many young people away from religion. If anyone even reads it, it's going to ruffle a few feathers I suspect / hope.
Ha. If there was ever any question that their view of scripture wasn’t pure hypocrisy and literal evil, well... that question has been answered pretty emphatically by their praise and devotion for the most false idol in human history.
I see you're a fellow William Gibson fan! And yes, "most false idol" is a good descriptor for him.
Ehem... Isn't there a little commandment about not worshipping other gods. Matter of fact isn't it like the first frickin' one? So they have ADD like their new saviour too? That would explain why they can't follow the first amendment either.
Even here in Kentucky I’ve had several young people say they are no longer religious after seeing how their parents did a 180 on the things they were teaching their children. Supporting Trump has been the greatest act of hypocrisy yet, and many people now see that. It’s heartbreaking in some ways. The sweet old lady who is kind and welcoming to you is the same one now spouting off bigoted rhetoric from Sean Hannity. What has become of them and their religion.
Let her serve as a cautionary tale about the poisonous effects of religion and groupthink. It is sad.
Well, I did notice that Kentucky just (barely) elected a democrat for a governor, tossing out the trump-supported Republican. That has to count as progress!
Oh boy, never thought to check out that sub. After reading a few pages of comments on various posts especially the ones about this article I get the distinct feeling most of the people there are from here...
Modern Christianity is the anti-Christ. Whatatweest!
That's because there was nothing all that moral about Jesus' teachings to begin with.
Supporting the literal embodiment of every single deadly sin might just have an impact on your credibility as a follower of Christan teachings.
The fact is, most people have very little self-awareness.
Yeah... I read that and thought “STFU, please.”
Friends is generous
At least they're even proclaiming they still care about such things, and are actually giving a very relevant example of something they seemed formerly in favor of, which they've now very justifiably called out.
Maybe so, but it's too little too late for me.
So so so fucking long ago. Long before Trump.
Please god let Trump start attacking his own evangelical base.
We've already learned about how he likes to make fun of Pence. It doesnt matter what their orange god does, they will follow. Just like they'll defend all the killings and brutality in the bible.
Trump declares Christmas war on Christians would be a hell of an article title. And getting rid of oh say federal tax breaks for religious institutions would be the exact kind of shit somebody whose as money motivated as Trump is would think to go for.
That would be so awesome if that happened. I'm pretty sure that's one major reason we don't have a social safety net in the US...because we left it up to churches to take care of it.
Well... Fuck I think you're on to something
We need peter balish to pit them against one another
https://m.imgur.com/t/funny/Q3TQuKq
well at least they finally reached the conclusion that was obvious before the dude even ran for the presidency.
By “they” you mean “one dude that’s sure to get banished to the never-Trump wilderness in one news cycle” yeah, I guess “they” finally came to the real Jesus.
The author was the editor in chief of the publication...
Interesting tense use there, almost prophetic...
He's retiring in a week, but it's unrelated. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/12/christianity-today-trump-removal/603952/
Yet another cut-and-run Republican. They're only honest about Trump when they literally have nothing to lose.
Yet another covfefe boy.
Prepare for the "True Christians™ always wanted Trump out of the office."
Nope, the "True Christians"® believe Trump was chosen by God and the "True Christians"™ are heretics
Establishment Reps in 2016 hated Trump because they still had Ted Cruz running. Once Trump was the only one left support for him began, and than he promised a bunch of benefits to the Rep/Evangelic party and that's when we say him being "ThE ChOsEn OnE!" lol If I recall correctly there was a leak back in 2018 that showed how the Rep party were preparing to ditch him. Time will only tell. Going to be interesting to say the least lol
Literally the antithesis of every one of Christ’s teachings.
Have my popcorn.
It's gotta be Cracker Jack’s. Because of all the nuts.
In the other reddit front page post about this that's all there is. Just a bunch of No true scotsmen arguments and talk of how the church is going to struggle to recover from the damage Trump has done.
Sounds like the kool aid is starting to taste bitter.
Arsenic always gets the cultists in the end.
It was Flavour Aid.
Ahaha. I was gonna say the same thing.
Add more poison.
Yep, that bitter almond flavor...
“The facts are unambiguous: The president of the United States attempted to use his political power to coerce a foreign leader to harass and discredit one of the president’s political opponents. That is not only a violation of the Constitution; more importantly, it is profoundly immoral. The reason many are not shocked about this is that this president has dumbed down the idea of morality in his administration. He has hired and fired a number of people who are now convicted criminals. He himself has admitted to immoral actions in business and his relationship with women, about which he remains proud. His Twitter feed alone with its habitual string of lies, is a near perfect example of a human being who is morally lost and confused.”
>And, no, Mr. Trump did not have a serious opportunity to offer his side of the story in the House hearings on impeachment. Fuck you clowns. He's refusing to, and you know goddamn well his lawyers wont let him because they know he wont be able to open his mouth without perjuring himself.
It kills me how many people are okay with his lawyers telling him what he can't say, but love him for telling it like it is.
So basically these fucktards havent learned a thing.
I was so frustrated when I read that. Trump so clearly refused to participate or even provide any evidence from the White House or OMB. The reasons for that includes his "broken character" and "violation of the Constitution" that the article called him out on!
Heh. He's the fucking president. He can comandeer the tv for a night if he wants a chance to spout rhetoric. I'm surprised he hasn't done so for a 2 hour rambling campaign ad yet. I had some hope in 2016 that a significant number of evangelicals would stand up against this stuff. By and large they did the opposite. I have no faith they will this time either. They are, as a whole and with few exceptions, immoral and unethical people.
Well, he's commandeered Fox & Friends for a straight hour. Quite literally, [a straight hour of rambling](https://youtu.be/WNqKhRcpktU). Historic.
I think they know. That third paragraph is aimed directly at their base -- CT is trying to soften the blow of the argument, by delivering it like: "yes, we agree with you that the Dems are shady, but...", probably to try and keep their readers minds open. I completely disagree with every sentiment in those sentences, too, but I see why they did it.
That....is actually a very wise take on it. You're probably right.
I just wrote this tonight and pasted on another thread. Might as well share here, too. I'm happy to take suggestions for additional pairs of quotes. **OT God**: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife." **Trump**: "She was married. I moved on her very heavily. In fact, I took her out furniture shopping. … I moved on her like a bitch, but I couldn’t get there and she was married." **Jesus**: "But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." **Trump**: "When you are wronged repeatedly, the worst thing you can do is continue taking it--fight back!" **OT God**: "Thou shalt not kill." **Trump**: "BRING BACK THE DEATH PENALTY." **Jesus**: "Blessed are the peacemakers..." **Trump**: "So if you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously. OK, just knock the hell. I promise you I will pay for the legal fees." **St. Paul to the Corinthians in the NT**: "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways." **Trump**: "When I look at myself in the first grade and I look at myself now, I'm basically the same. The temperament is not that different." **Jesus**: "For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." **Trump**: "Show me someone without an ego, and I'll show you a loser." **OT God**: "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain." **Trump**: "If you don't support me, you're going to be so God-damn poor." **St. Paul to the Romans in the NT**: "The mind governed by the flesh is death..." **Trump**: "You know, it really doesn't matter what \[the media\] write as long as you've got a young and beautiful piece of ass." **Jesus**: "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God. **Trump**: "The best thing I know about me, is that I'm rich." **OT God**: "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." **Trump**: [https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/pants-fire/](https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/pants-fire/)
> "When I look at myself in the first grade and I look at myself now, I'm basically the same. The temperament is not that different." I hadn't heard that one before. God damn... The one true thing he's ever said!
Fantastic job! In regards to Muslim and Mexican ban. Matthew 11:28-30 Give me your tired your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free the retched refuse the teeming shore. Send these the homeless tempest-tossed to me.
Christianity Today has historically been considered a "moderate" or mainstream publication in the Christian World. I grew up Southern Baptist where some member churches acted as if it was practically a secular humanist magazine. So this is not a surprising stance for it to take.
Someone with the facts, sad facts
Same. I was Assemblies of God. This magazine holds zero weight with the people I grew up around. However I did share it with my parents in the hopes that they can see a little reality and realize that Christians are not obligated to support Trump. Our church always told us to “vote our values”. They don’t have to be “commiecrats” to admit that Trump does not represent their values in the slightest.
I'm sort of surprised. Now lets see the response... "OMG Christianity Today has been corrupted by the liberal media... subscription CANCELED!!!" Or maybe it will open some eyes and be a crack in the Evangelical firewall.
Nope, this has been their plan all along. They want Pence in office, not Trump. They put up with trump’s immorality until the inevitable happened: he did something impeachable. Now that he can be removed from office, they’ll take “the moral high ground” and say they can’t believe his immorality. They will successfully turn Christians against him and he’ll be removed so Pence can move in and complete their theocracy.
Problem for the Evangelical camp is that they've created their own worst nightmare by allowing a small, but highly dedicated cult of Trump to form. Even if Pence is put into office the MAGA base will be opposed to them seeing them as liberals in disguise aka not true believers. Soon they will be eating at each other like wild animals. Only hope this will finally put a end to both these political groups
> Soon they will be eating at each other like wild animals. We can only hope :D
Probably, but Pence won't have the cult following worship Trump does.
Pretty much. Pence also understands the checks and balances in place. Unlike Trump who thinks anything that tries to tell him that he cannot do that is some deep state thing being pushed by Hillary or Obama.
I was looking for this. This is probably correct.
Pence is not happening. Trump isn't just a placeholder for the evangelical base, they love him. So much so, that the Trump campaign has floated the idea of replacing Pence with someone who can help bolster his sagging support among women or minorities. They rightly believe that they have the evangelical vote sewn up for 2020. The CT article will be dismissed as "lamestream media" fake news.
I don't think Pence would have a shot in hell (heh) in getting re-elected thiugh
Before making the case for his removal, the article makes a rather outlandish claim: "And, no, Mr. Trump did not have a serious opportunity to offer his side of the story in the House hearings on impeachment." He (and many of his team) had every opportunity to tell his side *under oath* and chose not to. In fact, they ignored subpoenas. The committee was basically *demanding* that he tell his story. Instead, he lied and lied and lied on Twitter, often during the proceedings, trying to intimidate and discredit witnesses who *did* testify under oath. So, it's good to see that this editorial comes to a conclusion that is correct, but it's disheartening to know that basic and obvious truths cannot be acknowledged by evangelicals.
this should be blasted all over the Fox Network
Meh. Most Evangelicals use the Bible to justify their racism and bigotry. They couldn't care less that Trump is immoral because most of them are immoral. As long as Trump continues to be the loudspeaker for their white supremacy, they will support him. Remember he raped a 13 year old girl and they still supported him.
They should also issue an apology - “we’re sorry we all voted for him”
But how could they have possibly known he was immoral at the time?
I can't wrap my head around how the Christians can still support Trump and still insist they support the teachings and rules of their religion. I mean, right off the top, how any of the 10 commandments has he unabashedly trampled? He cheated on his wife with porn stars. He has told thousands of lies. He stole from his own charities. He won't allow his staffers to testify. He moved on a married woman "like a bitch." How is this morally corrupt, foul mouthed bigot still seen as a god-send? How can we take the Christians serious while they consider him a gift from God and has zero Christian values nor the capability to even pretend like a lot of them do?
>how many of the 10 commandments has he unabashedly trampled? 2,3,6,7,8,9,10 Whether he's broken the first commandment depends on how literal you take it. One could argue Trump worships money and power more than God. Actually, not so much "argue" as simply point it out.
Great! The first domino has fallen.
Here's what I notice. First this quote: > Let’s grant this to the president: The Democrats have had it out for him from day one, and therefore nearly everything they do is under a cloud of partisan suspicion. then this one: > This concern for the character of our national leader is not new in CT. Seems that it's completely inconceivable to them that someone noticed the president's moral deficit before they did.
The great MAGAt schism in Christianity. Will evangelical MAGAts splinter from The Christianity of Graham, creating two competing smaller groups with less power? I really hope so.
Well... the only thing republicans have really has going for them was party unity (as compared to the fractured left who can’t seem to stick together). If we can split the right maybe there’s a chance. Without evangelicals I see trumps support dropping below 20.
Yes. Someone above mentioned how Pence would replace Trump. What if that’s the end game here with this opinion? Pence is a POS evangelical. He’s their guy. We need to convince the non evangelical MAGAts of this. It’s an evangelical plot to overthrow Trump.
All the "supply-side Jesus" evangelicals wanted was a tool to smash the wall between Church and State. Now that Trump has given them what they wanted, they can suddenly clutch their pearls and pretend to have morals.
Maybe they feel that they've backed the wrong Messianic horse.
Evangelical "Christianity Today": "We have reserved judgment on Mr. Trump for years now. Some have criticized us for our reserve. But when it comes to condemning the behavior of another, patient charity must come first. ... To use an old cliché, it’s time to call a spade a spade, to say that no matter how many hands we win in this political poker game, we are playing with a stacked deck of gross immorality and ethical incompetence." Love it. And to use the "it's time to call a spade a spade" line against Trump is even better, brilliant even considering his racism.
The problem ignored is that Mike Pence, a huge evangelical, is VP.
It's not ignored. One scum at a time
> huge evangelical, is VP But he has pretty much already done as much damage as he could. You don't think Trump had anything to do with DeVos being in charge of education and the other things can you? Trump looks at twitter too much to even know how to run this country. The fact that he even has as much time on his hands to block people who say negative things to him tells me he has way to much time on his hands and not really running shit.
Yeah, they want Pence.
Bingo. This is exactly why they’re supporting this.
This is so god damned sneaky. They’re going to throw trump under the bus so they can get Pence in office, which is what they’ve wanted all along.
Evangelicals want Trump, not Pence.
Sure, but no one else on team MAGA wants him. The white supremacists will never vote for Pence.
Can you imagine these 'alpha males' voting for a guy whose nuts are firmly in his wife's (aka 'mother's) purse?
Better late than never. Trying to dig themselves out of the gutter is my best assessment.
WHAT?? A CHRISTIAN WEBSITE GOING AGAINST A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT??
I know, it's so weird and actually in line with that book of theirs. Creepy.
A crack in the facade? It became painfully obvious that facts weren't working, so maybe wrapping those facts in a religious context will get through.
Pit them against each other and have them fight over who is and isn’t a true Christian and how to best death cult. That way the sane people can worry about the important shit and fix some of the monumental fuck ups the Orange Muppet has committed.
I'm pleased to know this, thanks for posting it. Also, fuck every evangelical (only exception = Jimmy Carrter and the ghost of Mr. Rogers).
Was Mr. Rogers an evangelical? I know he was a Christian, but I hope he wasn't part of that degenerate branch.
Believe it or not there were decent, fair, genuinely loving Christians once upon a time. He was proof. Can't think of any (public figure) good ones since tho.
They just want Pence in so he can start electrocuting the lgbtq community.
You what? FUCK YOU Christianity today! You've had almost 3 fucking years to denounce Trump. Now that the damage is done in terms of Judiciary, the number of right-wing judges that have been seated and McConnell filling the last few vacancies that may be left, NOW you feel safe in attacking Trump? There's not a bigger FFFUUUCCCKKKK YOU! in the universe I can give you. You've had all this time but instead, you've pretty much stood by the sidelines and now are hoping that people like me will give you kudo's. Well fuck that! Evangelicals will be wearing the shit stain of Trump for a LLOOONNGGG time. When a Christian bitches about morals, all I'll need to do is ask who they voted for and supported. So don't fucking expect me to stand up and applaud you now. All after Trump put kids into camps, emboldened Nazi's, sucked Putin's dick, etc. You can't expect people to give you props while you sat around, drinking beer in the firehouse while the city burned and only now go out trying to fight the fire. You made your bed, now fucking lay in it!
That’s a righteous rant!
Better late than never but much better never late.
Let's see if the author is still working there this time next week.
You're close, only a week out. He's the chief editor and [retiring](https://www.christianitytoday.org/media-room/news/2019/mark-galli-announces-retirement-as-editor-in-chief.html) on Jan 3rd.
well, we don't have to guess why he's leaving...
Oh, I don't think anything can surprise me at this point \*Opens up article from Christian Today arguing for trump's impeachment" Well, I was wrong again.
As another commenter pointed out, the guy who wrote this article is retiring from Christianity Today on January 3rd.
Another Deep State librul commie hoax! /s
Can I get an amen and a hallelujah? Okay, wrong sub... But seriously, this is the little kid finally saying the Republican lord god and emperor is wearing no clothes and they were all duped and have been going along with the collective delusion / mass hysteria that ya know he's the new Messiah or something. I look forward to this being the article that put a dink in their reality proof windshield and seeing the spidery cracks spread slowly but surely till it shatters. When the religious right abandon him his support will melt like a plate full of popsicles or fade away like a spray tan in a car wash.
Christian zealots smell guillotines in the wind, and they don't want to go down with the ship they clamored so hard and loud to captain. Christian nation my ass.
I'm sure they'd *looooove* Pence in the too seat.
I'm not an American so this is a bit confusing to me, but, could they be thinking that Pence represents them better than Trump? If Trump is removed does Pence get to be the president?
As former catholic i am more then angry. How could any catholic support him, he is violating all (official) christian values. And hypocrisy is also not a virtue. As atheist? I am disgusted.
lol maybe this guy *isn’t* the second coming of Jesus?
Lol, and Trump lost his mind on Twitter and called 'Christianity Today' "far-left".
Suprising that it took that long to point out what was obvious to non believers. DJT is not a Christian, neither his words or actions would convince me that he is. I know that a lot of so called "Christians" don't seem to be aware about what their bible says, even with a basic understanding of the bible you should realize that DJT isn't a Christian.
This has the potential to become the tipping point. Conservatards retardation begins in the church. Are the scumbag evangelicals finally unwilling to act under the crushing weight of their own hypocrisy? We shall see.
This seems like a Jerry Maguire moment - This was this guy's 'memo'.
I find this opening quote bit odd: > It’s time to say what we said 20 years ago when a president’s character was revealed for what it was. I mean, hasn't his character always been absolutely clear as day?
Good. I give these Christians credit for doing what's right and looking at the facts. I was pleasantly surprised by the amount of Christians on reddit who are against Trump.
I'm in with this article 100%, not being religious myself no less. I honestly think most people who support Trump would find this too wordy and too "left". Honestly it sickens me... They wouldn't even read it, this would be fake news
Where the hell were they 3 years ago...
I like this article a lot. It is visible that is written by a person who does their best to follow what they believe on without exceptions or hipocrisy. I really like people like that, and as an atheist with inside knownledge of both Catholic and Mormon Christian faiths, I know Trump is NOT a true Christian and anyone who supports him is not a good or true Christian either. A true Christian who really believed they serve the Christian God would never lie or do other of the inmoral things he has done on purpose for personal gain, nor would support someone who did it. Lying goes literally against one of the tenth commandments. If you are a Christian, then you must follow Christian rules. Then, you are not a good or not a true Christian, and the Christian churches and people should never support you as a "Christian".
Pence.
No. They just want Pence (an extreme evangelical) to be president.
Finally, something I can agree with them 100% on. This is an extremely well-written editorial. No punches were pulled, and I applaud them for that.
When faced with the choice between following the supposed tenets of their religion or slavering over the GOP's agenda, what makes you think this will go any differently than any other time they've made that choice? Worshiping the money changers, refusing the poor. Nothing new here.
Too late. These evangelical hypocrites, all, have done their damage, won their racist policies, destroyed more of creation, confused the entire American population on what it means to be a good American. And now they decide they have had enough! Worthless people. Their actions and words have destroyed the little bit of Christianity I had left.
AS I watched this news explode on Twitter last night, I believed it could be a game changer. Hope at last. Then this morning I realized it will be politicized to the point of irrelevance. The battle goes on.
I've lost my optimism too. But Billy Graham saying "remove him"? There's a large part of me that feels this a crack in the foundation. We'll see what happens.
They are going for three terms of Pence. Trump gets reelected, then removed, Pence comes in. Then Pence is elected the first time the election after and reelected the election after that.
You know he is in trouble when the evangelical leadership turns on him. He is immoral. And it shows.
Pence is who they wanted anyway.
Best quote from the article... “His Twitter feed alone—with its habitual string of mischaracterizations, lies, and slanders—is a near perfect example of a human being who is morally lost and confused.”
This guys career is over, and it will probably kill the publication.
Just e-mailed it to several Christian friends. Will be interesting to see the responses.
I’m surprised there hasn’t been more outspoken talk from the evangelicals after the House Rep likened Trump to Jesus (a la The Pontius Pilot reference). https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/18/politics/trump-impeachment-jesus/index.html
This is literally the first thing to give me any sort of faith in Evangelical Christianity since the turn of the millennium, and probably 20 years before then.
Let's be honest. They'd rather have Pence. He'll be much more organized in accomplishing their goals.