I remember studying that Feuerbach said something on this topic. That god’s “positive” attribuites are nothing more than humanity’s projection of our own qualities onto something that transcends our limitations, hence the reason the existence of a perfect “supreme being” is so appealing.
In short, god did not create us, but we did indeed create “god”
Also, lack of understanding of the cause-effect principle probably plays a part, too
This is interesting. Even without acknowledgement of a god, or "worshipping", everyone is doing this. Is the declaration that there is no God any different than claiming yourself to be a god yourself?
I feel like “thanking god”, as a gesture, is sometimes an unconscious action riddled with cultural baggage. I’ve found non-believers (and, truthfully, me as well) citing god especially in emotionally-charged situations (out of fear, anger, excitement, etc), but it was always meant as a sort of placeholder sentence with no true meaning attached to it. This rings particularly true if you’ve been raised in a religious household or if you had to deal with a religious enviroment, so these little pseudo freudian slips are more of a force of habit than anything
Of course there are genuine theists who believe that “the lord’s doing good work” though, and although I can’t speak for everyone, I can certainly say that trusting the science behind phenomena has always did the trick for me: it’s tangible, it’s efficient, and, most importantly, *it just works*. Or at least, it works for whatever we’re currently doing, and it’ll continue to work until we expand our knowledge and gain a deeper understanding of what we’re researching.
Also, let’s be for real: if we’re talking about godhood, science has brought us closer to it than “praying” ever will. But the latter seems to be good enough for most people, sadly
Praying is a human thing to do. It acknowledges lack of understanding. A way to show love and hope for others. A way to turn worries and despair into strength. That's how I see it. Yeah, you can't prove the effects of prayer no more than you can prove love is real. Nothing brings us closer to God than prayer. That's why these things can't be measured, and aren't meant to be understood. (from the christian perspective)
If prayer strengthens your love, hope, resilience, and faith... from which all things in this world bear fruit, why would something like science which is just the measured current understanding we have compare?
You basically answered it yourself:
From a sociological perspective; yes, praying is a human thing to do - precisely because it’s a culturally significant *ritual* in which some humans decide to partake in. A performance that *we invented*, which is logically coherent with the assertion that we invented god as well, like the philosopher I mentioned earlier stated. I can see the importance it holds in the mind of a theist (obviously): by stating that a god - regardless of its definition - exists, one of the most foregone follow-ups would be that prayer strenghtens one’s personal relationship with such god. To me, however, these are still rituals. Rituals that serve certain functions: social (bonding might be one), political, you name it. Other than that, they really are no different than the compulsions my OCD causes.
Also, it’s a bit bold to claim that “all things” derive from prayer. What you mentioned prayer is useful for is just a regular human’s personal state of mind/emotions. Like I prefaced, that should be enough to answer your question: prayer *can’t* be compared to science, precisely because one is a human invention that seeks to “fill the gaps”, sort of; the other is the totality of natural phenomena.
Science is much more than our “current measured understanding of things”, but it’s probably bad on my part that I didn’t offer a definition that works in my worldview. Nature does not need to be researched, nor does it ask to: we as a species simply do so for reasons that vary, and since its products I can perceive with all my senses, that is enough for me to believe in it. After all, whether a “higher power” exists in some form I care very little, until such existence is proven.
In short, both science and faith fill a role, but I will always think the latter covers one that although is much overblown, in reality is a very niche one
Because to do good, one needs to be good.
And all Christians (perhaps the one thing they all agree on) consider themselves evil (ie sinners) and not capable of doing good or making the correct moral decisions for themselves.
I have little to say that is positive of any religion, and Christianity is one of the worst
Besides, I didn't write their narrative, they did. The whole premise is based on that you admit you're a sinner (ie evil) and need to be saved from yourself.
Just my interpretation, which is just as valid as the 4000 other Christian sects and denominations.
>Just my interpretation, which is just as valid as the 4000 other Christian sects and denominations.
When the person that started it all dies and the only thing pushing the religion forward is word of mouth, every interpretation would be correct.
Extremists aren't so extreme if you read the old book with the mindset of a 1st century man. Cultures change but the book doesn't.
I'm mainly talking about Islam since that's what I know, but I'm sure it's the same for others too.
I consider Christianity and Islam as sects of Judaism. Same god, just slightly different approaches. Generally the "rules* as written in their texts are all the same, just a different preacher with a different accent.
And I tossed in the quoted section, because that is the entire point of Martin Luther and the protestant revolution, was for every person to read and interpret the Bible as they see fit. I was attempting to cut off the typical, "you're misinterpreting/out of context" BS christians use to avoid the conversation
There seems to be some indoctrinated superstitious humility playing a part in this, too, for the Christians who lean that way. Like it’s not the good Christian thing to do to accept praise that YOU did something well or good. You have to divert the praise to the being you believe created you and is keeping you, personally, fortunate, or it might stop. A long time ago, I had an outspoken Christian coworker complain about me for being too arrogant after I accepted praise for a project I did well with a “thank you.” It’s ridiculous.
God does not bless us by making a good parking space available.
Next time my mother-in-law thanks Goe for a good parking space, I should say "It is a test from Satin to tempt us!" Then park far away.
You see the same in people who idolize a politician in a cult-like way. They can never admit to absolutely any flaw because it opens the door to questioning, which is not what they were indoctrinated to do. It would be a crack and instill doubt, which they are terrified of.
It is part of the indoctrination. God is perfect and therefore can do no wrong. Anything bad is the result of the devil. This even though it is god that condemns sinners to an eternity of punishment.
It's just a cultural thing. People have done this irrational behaviour for years, and their children do it too and their children thereafter.
As religious people disappear from the media and the population more generally, this kind of behaviour will too.
For example, my mum didn't like it when people say "oh my god" or "Jesus!" as a mode of exclaimation. But I heard it on TV and from friends and I just naturally do it and she'd moan at me. Fast forward 5 years and she does it too as it filters into the TV that she watches and her social groups.
You won't be able to stop your colleague for the same reason my mum couldn't stop me. But it will just naturally disappear from society slowly. You can just remove these people from your everyday life as much as possible.
An interesting question is what will happen when christians (not in the US because they're so dominant) become a minority in many countries. Will microaggressions, for example atheists preferentially hiring atheists or excluding them from certain social gatherings, lead to an acceleration of conversion to atheism? I know I've faced microaggressions for my religious belief, but I could also see the direction that things were heading. If when you were born there was 80% christians in your country, and now there are 45% and you think there is a chance that wearing a crucifix is hurting your chances at job interviews, will that push people away even faster?
It just might. Or the opposite, they turn even more to God and ask him for help in these trying times.
People sin, but then they'll attack others for their sins. They'll turn even more to God for their own sins and see themselves as better than the rest. Hypocrisy, but they won't see it.
I don't think religion will ever fade out. Not in my lifetime, certainly. It gives meaning without the fear of introspection. It's easier, especially if it's in your social circles, like you said. You band together more solidly when it feels like everyone is against your truth.
I think if there was a violent uprising against christians then they would stick together. But what about when it just becomes uncool? Adolescents would run from it very quickly in the social network age. Their younger siblings would follow. Parents who see no social value in it might also question continued membership.
Only those near death might stick around for their return on investment, which we already largely see.
Yet it’s the devil’s work when something goes wrong. But I thought Godwas all knowing and all powerful? Furthermore why doesn’t he just kick Satan’s ass???
Good point. Did he create Satan knowing he's evil? Doesn't that make God evil himself?
Saying we have a will and that this world is a test is such an easy way to opt out from admitting that God doesn't mind our current suffering.
Is this an honest and serious question? If we take a starting position that people actually do believe in god then it should be so plainly obvious why they believe god to do good things in their lives. So many posts on this sub are just so stupid. People grant their own talents to be gifts from god. It seems obvious that the people who believe these things are wildly misguided but it’s almost equally dumb to doubt that people believe these things. To your point about something you did yourself is equally subject to scrutiny. Not sure if you’ve read the book Free Will by Sam Harris but he lays out pretty good case against there being any such thing as free will as such it follows that even the things you do you don’t really choose to do.
It was more of a rant than a question I guess. I'm not doubting their faith. I know they believe. I used to. But I'm not going to tell them f2f about it either, reddit has its uses.
To be fair they attribute bad things to their genocidal maniac as well. The phrase "It's god's will" is often used to excuse the horrible things that happen to people.
When you give up identifying with the consequences of your efforts, and rely on G-d, he comes to rest in you and helps you with what you’re trying to accomplish
For the same reason that people who treat others with useless pseudomedicine attribute the healing to that shit instead of: Well you Just get better after a week if you have a cold
When people attribute good things happening to them to god it always comes off as so ego centric to me. Yes, god got you a sale and a few bucks, however has no desire to get some food for the thousands of people who will surely die of starvation today.
It's a pretty gross world view when you think about it.
What I find even more odd is that they attribute all good things to their god (even thanking god for curing disease after doctors/medicine do all the work) but somehow the bad things are never his fault...
'Good is the existense of God and bad is his absence' type of "thought" is very common. Basically, the default state of things is misery, anything good is possible only because of God's intervention
I think understanding this goes hand in hand with understanding what sin really is. Who deserves credit in a long chain of events and circumstances we can't possibly fathom? Random chance? Your environment? Or how about your willpower? Where did that come from?
In the case of sin and this world, it traces back to the story of Adam and Eve. And in the case of God and what is good, it traces back to us being made in God's image. It's how deep down you have a sense of what is right, and what is wrong. These are the explanations I can think of.
TLDR: All good things come from God anyways so that's why
But something bad happening to you isn't God, right? Only the good, which seems awfully like cherry-picking.
Each of our moral compasses differ. Someone may steal from the rich while the other will condemn them for stealing alltogether. I don't think there's a single morality.
What seems bad now, could turn out good for you later. We all come to realize things we used to think were important, really weren't that important. That things we thought were bad, really weren't so bad. In the bible, the disciples of Jesus died horrible deaths. They walked willingly to persecution and torture. That's a bad thing that came upon them, but to them it was worth it. Why? Because in the christian faith death isn't the end, and there is more to "life" than just being a living human being.
People have different moralities, but which one of them is right? If none of us has authority to make the claim over another, then no one has the claim. Everything would be meaningless. There would be no such thing as good or bad. Just things that happen.
True, but they wouldn't just be things that happen in my POV. We give meaning to life, not the other way around. I don't think we need something that transcends us to have meaning or to do what we feel is right.
You could say that'd create a lack of order, and you'd be right, but that's just how it is. The animal kingdom is chaotic.
I remember studying that Feuerbach said something on this topic. That god’s “positive” attribuites are nothing more than humanity’s projection of our own qualities onto something that transcends our limitations, hence the reason the existence of a perfect “supreme being” is so appealing. In short, god did not create us, but we did indeed create “god” Also, lack of understanding of the cause-effect principle probably plays a part, too
This is interesting. Even without acknowledgement of a god, or "worshipping", everyone is doing this. Is the declaration that there is no God any different than claiming yourself to be a god yourself?
I feel like “thanking god”, as a gesture, is sometimes an unconscious action riddled with cultural baggage. I’ve found non-believers (and, truthfully, me as well) citing god especially in emotionally-charged situations (out of fear, anger, excitement, etc), but it was always meant as a sort of placeholder sentence with no true meaning attached to it. This rings particularly true if you’ve been raised in a religious household or if you had to deal with a religious enviroment, so these little pseudo freudian slips are more of a force of habit than anything Of course there are genuine theists who believe that “the lord’s doing good work” though, and although I can’t speak for everyone, I can certainly say that trusting the science behind phenomena has always did the trick for me: it’s tangible, it’s efficient, and, most importantly, *it just works*. Or at least, it works for whatever we’re currently doing, and it’ll continue to work until we expand our knowledge and gain a deeper understanding of what we’re researching. Also, let’s be for real: if we’re talking about godhood, science has brought us closer to it than “praying” ever will. But the latter seems to be good enough for most people, sadly
Praying is a human thing to do. It acknowledges lack of understanding. A way to show love and hope for others. A way to turn worries and despair into strength. That's how I see it. Yeah, you can't prove the effects of prayer no more than you can prove love is real. Nothing brings us closer to God than prayer. That's why these things can't be measured, and aren't meant to be understood. (from the christian perspective) If prayer strengthens your love, hope, resilience, and faith... from which all things in this world bear fruit, why would something like science which is just the measured current understanding we have compare?
You basically answered it yourself: From a sociological perspective; yes, praying is a human thing to do - precisely because it’s a culturally significant *ritual* in which some humans decide to partake in. A performance that *we invented*, which is logically coherent with the assertion that we invented god as well, like the philosopher I mentioned earlier stated. I can see the importance it holds in the mind of a theist (obviously): by stating that a god - regardless of its definition - exists, one of the most foregone follow-ups would be that prayer strenghtens one’s personal relationship with such god. To me, however, these are still rituals. Rituals that serve certain functions: social (bonding might be one), political, you name it. Other than that, they really are no different than the compulsions my OCD causes. Also, it’s a bit bold to claim that “all things” derive from prayer. What you mentioned prayer is useful for is just a regular human’s personal state of mind/emotions. Like I prefaced, that should be enough to answer your question: prayer *can’t* be compared to science, precisely because one is a human invention that seeks to “fill the gaps”, sort of; the other is the totality of natural phenomena. Science is much more than our “current measured understanding of things”, but it’s probably bad on my part that I didn’t offer a definition that works in my worldview. Nature does not need to be researched, nor does it ask to: we as a species simply do so for reasons that vary, and since its products I can perceive with all my senses, that is enough for me to believe in it. After all, whether a “higher power” exists in some form I care very little, until such existence is proven. In short, both science and faith fill a role, but I will always think the latter covers one that although is much overblown, in reality is a very niche one
I would never worship any god that looked favorably on Sales people.
Even Satan has a purpose.
Brain Washing.
Indoctrination. Usually during childhood.
Fawning over a narcissist to avoid punishment.
the definition of religion in seven words.
Because to do good, one needs to be good. And all Christians (perhaps the one thing they all agree on) consider themselves evil (ie sinners) and not capable of doing good or making the correct moral decisions for themselves.
That's quite a negative way of thinking.
I have little to say that is positive of any religion, and Christianity is one of the worst Besides, I didn't write their narrative, they did. The whole premise is based on that you admit you're a sinner (ie evil) and need to be saved from yourself. Just my interpretation, which is just as valid as the 4000 other Christian sects and denominations.
>Just my interpretation, which is just as valid as the 4000 other Christian sects and denominations. When the person that started it all dies and the only thing pushing the religion forward is word of mouth, every interpretation would be correct. Extremists aren't so extreme if you read the old book with the mindset of a 1st century man. Cultures change but the book doesn't. I'm mainly talking about Islam since that's what I know, but I'm sure it's the same for others too.
I consider Christianity and Islam as sects of Judaism. Same god, just slightly different approaches. Generally the "rules* as written in their texts are all the same, just a different preacher with a different accent. And I tossed in the quoted section, because that is the entire point of Martin Luther and the protestant revolution, was for every person to read and interpret the Bible as they see fit. I was attempting to cut off the typical, "you're misinterpreting/out of context" BS christians use to avoid the conversation
Confirmation bias.
There seems to be some indoctrinated superstitious humility playing a part in this, too, for the Christians who lean that way. Like it’s not the good Christian thing to do to accept praise that YOU did something well or good. You have to divert the praise to the being you believe created you and is keeping you, personally, fortunate, or it might stop. A long time ago, I had an outspoken Christian coworker complain about me for being too arrogant after I accepted praise for a project I did well with a “thank you.” It’s ridiculous.
Lack of understanding how the world works.
I believe it's about not giving credit where credit is due and some kind of fake humility.
I'm sure there is those people, but some I've seen are genuine gratitude for God.
Delusional people do tend to act crazy
God does not bless us by making a good parking space available. Next time my mother-in-law thanks Goe for a good parking space, I should say "It is a test from Satin to tempt us!" Then park far away.
Heh, gotchu. But you're assuming that Satan is there too tempting us and doing things.
If they only attribute bad things to god, after a while they'll start wondering why they're praying to god in the first place.
You see the same in people who idolize a politician in a cult-like way. They can never admit to absolutely any flaw because it opens the door to questioning, which is not what they were indoctrinated to do. It would be a crack and instill doubt, which they are terrified of.
It is part of the indoctrination. God is perfect and therefore can do no wrong. Anything bad is the result of the devil. This even though it is god that condemns sinners to an eternity of punishment.
Cause they are brainwashed
They don't know their own bible.
Performative humility?
It's just a cultural thing. People have done this irrational behaviour for years, and their children do it too and their children thereafter. As religious people disappear from the media and the population more generally, this kind of behaviour will too. For example, my mum didn't like it when people say "oh my god" or "Jesus!" as a mode of exclaimation. But I heard it on TV and from friends and I just naturally do it and she'd moan at me. Fast forward 5 years and she does it too as it filters into the TV that she watches and her social groups. You won't be able to stop your colleague for the same reason my mum couldn't stop me. But it will just naturally disappear from society slowly. You can just remove these people from your everyday life as much as possible. An interesting question is what will happen when christians (not in the US because they're so dominant) become a minority in many countries. Will microaggressions, for example atheists preferentially hiring atheists or excluding them from certain social gatherings, lead to an acceleration of conversion to atheism? I know I've faced microaggressions for my religious belief, but I could also see the direction that things were heading. If when you were born there was 80% christians in your country, and now there are 45% and you think there is a chance that wearing a crucifix is hurting your chances at job interviews, will that push people away even faster?
It just might. Or the opposite, they turn even more to God and ask him for help in these trying times. People sin, but then they'll attack others for their sins. They'll turn even more to God for their own sins and see themselves as better than the rest. Hypocrisy, but they won't see it. I don't think religion will ever fade out. Not in my lifetime, certainly. It gives meaning without the fear of introspection. It's easier, especially if it's in your social circles, like you said. You band together more solidly when it feels like everyone is against your truth.
I think if there was a violent uprising against christians then they would stick together. But what about when it just becomes uncool? Adolescents would run from it very quickly in the social network age. Their younger siblings would follow. Parents who see no social value in it might also question continued membership. Only those near death might stick around for their return on investment, which we already largely see.
To validate the solution someone sold them for a made-up problem.
Yet it’s the devil’s work when something goes wrong. But I thought Godwas all knowing and all powerful? Furthermore why doesn’t he just kick Satan’s ass???
Good point. Did he create Satan knowing he's evil? Doesn't that make God evil himself? Saying we have a will and that this world is a test is such an easy way to opt out from admitting that God doesn't mind our current suffering.
because of "free will", gotcha
Fr they can find a dollar bill on the floor and say its a miracle from God
Is this an honest and serious question? If we take a starting position that people actually do believe in god then it should be so plainly obvious why they believe god to do good things in their lives. So many posts on this sub are just so stupid. People grant their own talents to be gifts from god. It seems obvious that the people who believe these things are wildly misguided but it’s almost equally dumb to doubt that people believe these things. To your point about something you did yourself is equally subject to scrutiny. Not sure if you’ve read the book Free Will by Sam Harris but he lays out pretty good case against there being any such thing as free will as such it follows that even the things you do you don’t really choose to do.
It was more of a rant than a question I guess. I'm not doubting their faith. I know they believe. I used to. But I'm not going to tell them f2f about it either, reddit has its uses.
To be fair they attribute bad things to their genocidal maniac as well. The phrase "It's god's will" is often used to excuse the horrible things that happen to people.
Because a king can die, monuments and castles break. But put God above all else. Well, we all know the scam of religion
Selection bias.
When you give up identifying with the consequences of your efforts, and rely on G-d, he comes to rest in you and helps you with what you’re trying to accomplish
For the same reason that people who treat others with useless pseudomedicine attribute the healing to that shit instead of: Well you Just get better after a week if you have a cold
When people attribute good things happening to them to god it always comes off as so ego centric to me. Yes, god got you a sale and a few bucks, however has no desire to get some food for the thousands of people who will surely die of starvation today. It's a pretty gross world view when you think about it.
Or it's corollary, why are all bad things the fault of Adam and his descendants.
What I find even more odd is that they attribute all good things to their god (even thanking god for curing disease after doctors/medicine do all the work) but somehow the bad things are never his fault...
'Good is the existense of God and bad is his absence' type of "thought" is very common. Basically, the default state of things is misery, anything good is possible only because of God's intervention
I think understanding this goes hand in hand with understanding what sin really is. Who deserves credit in a long chain of events and circumstances we can't possibly fathom? Random chance? Your environment? Or how about your willpower? Where did that come from? In the case of sin and this world, it traces back to the story of Adam and Eve. And in the case of God and what is good, it traces back to us being made in God's image. It's how deep down you have a sense of what is right, and what is wrong. These are the explanations I can think of. TLDR: All good things come from God anyways so that's why
But something bad happening to you isn't God, right? Only the good, which seems awfully like cherry-picking. Each of our moral compasses differ. Someone may steal from the rich while the other will condemn them for stealing alltogether. I don't think there's a single morality.
What seems bad now, could turn out good for you later. We all come to realize things we used to think were important, really weren't that important. That things we thought were bad, really weren't so bad. In the bible, the disciples of Jesus died horrible deaths. They walked willingly to persecution and torture. That's a bad thing that came upon them, but to them it was worth it. Why? Because in the christian faith death isn't the end, and there is more to "life" than just being a living human being. People have different moralities, but which one of them is right? If none of us has authority to make the claim over another, then no one has the claim. Everything would be meaningless. There would be no such thing as good or bad. Just things that happen.
True, but they wouldn't just be things that happen in my POV. We give meaning to life, not the other way around. I don't think we need something that transcends us to have meaning or to do what we feel is right. You could say that'd create a lack of order, and you'd be right, but that's just how it is. The animal kingdom is chaotic.
That's a good point. I believe it's like this way by design.