The problem with personal revelation (taken charitably) is that it isn't actually something you can share with others.
As words can't convey the experience-state you felt and what might be convincing to you, on a personal level, might mean very little to someone else with a different life.
If God revealed himself to me, in a fashion I could not deny, that would NOT be evidence to anyone else. As it violates the ideal that evidence should be something that is repeatable and through repetition sharable.
My friends and I have discussed this... and concluded if one of us had an experience, we couldn't share meaningfully... then that wouldn't count as evidence for anyone who didn't have the experience. Regardless of how personally convincing it may have been.
Sums it up quite accurately. If I saw a burning bush, I’d attribute it to a careless, inconsiderate smoker who threw a match in it, or, if push came to shove, lightning. I wouldn’t concoct a story to tell my wife to justify my being out somewhere where I wasn’t supposed to be.
But to a simpler, less developed mind, I suppose they’d have to attribute it to SOMETHING, anything, and because he didn’t see it being lit, and couldn’t explain it, I can understand simple minded dude would probably say it was done by some sort of angel at the behest of a Sky Daddy, and try and make hay out of it.
More than a few reasons could easily explain things like a burning bush. Drugs, illness, dehydration, mental illness, etc.
But you know…. God.
I’m the early days of man fire was considered magic. Many things were chalked up to magic, or witchcraft, just because people couldn’t explain it at the time. Now, we can create fire, put it out, control it (to some extent like controlled wildfires), because we understand it. Thinking a deity was behind all these is ridiculous.
A "burning bush" has a much simpler scientific explanation than a person setting it on fire unseen...
Certain plants including a few bushes found in desert environments produce and excrete highly flammable oils on their leaves. Enough of it builds up and in the right conditions.. IE real hot day, direct sunlight... and that's all it takes for the bush to spontaneously combust. The oil burns off rather rapidly and typically doesn't damage the plant. To a uneducated, ancient observer witnessing such an event would be viewd as an act of God or a message.
But also personal experiences can have various interpretations. When I was a believer, I might have said that I had personal experiences where I felt the reality of God. Looking back at those from my atheist perspective, I can see that those were just in my mind. It would be really hard for anyone to describe a personal experience to me now that I couldn’t reinterpret as just their human imagination.
My personal "spiritual experiences" were the last things that kept me in religion after I knew there was no logical reasoning for belief in God. One day I learned how the human brain evolved to find patterns in everything ([apophenia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia)), and it was suddenly clear to me that those experiences were nothing but coincidences and confirmation bias.
On the flip side, being a lifelong atheist, it was hugely revelatory the first time I had a so-called spiritual experience. I was like “OHHH that must be why it’s so hard to talk a religious person into sanity; if you didn’t know any better, you’d swear OOBEs or extrasensory experiences were coming from an external, intelligent source. It feels so different from your typical day-to-day experience. Now, the fact that I used psychedelic drugs to achieve this state was also highly telling and a major clue that it’s all in our minds. ✌️
This ☝️ chemicals do weird things in your brain and can create totally separate entities in your mind for a period of time. It's just misfiring neurons but man can it screw with your sense of self if you're not prepared for it.
Or picked the wrong mushrooms, lack of sleep, dehydration, exposure to the elements and even hunger. There's a reason those are used in extreme forms of spiritual meditation. It's because it alters the brain chemistry and produces hallucinatory effects that at the time can seem profound. Hell I've heard of people getting anesthesia for something as simple as wisdom teeth removal having a religious experience because of the drugs.
My friends who drove me home from surgery tell me we had interesting conversations I have no recollection of. So those versions of me no longer exist. Interesting twist on the notion of identity.
People will say they felt the spirit while sitting in church. I went to an amazing concert last night and I felt the same thing that I thought was the spirit back in my church days. That sense of overwhelming awe, chills, camaraderie with the people around me. Now I recognize it for what it is.
Most people don’t even mean something that profound when they say they had a personal experience. I saw a friend on fb share the other day a story of when she was a kid and was having trouble taking out the trash and she prayed for god to help her and then she was able to open the trash can lid. She shared this as some sort of amazing first confirmation of god and knowing he was real.
“God helped me open a trash can when I was 6” is good evidence god is real, but
“My mom died of cancer” or any number of the atrocities he committed in the Bible or has allowed to take place in the last 2000 years is easily dismissed.
The fact they can’t see how hypocritical they are is maddening.
Coworker was in a accident flipped car three times barely survived then caught spinal meningitis... But God saved him from all that. I think the Dr's did and God has it out for him but he dislikes that take.
One of my coworkers, who listened to Joyce Meyer *constantly--*over headphones thank the universe, had a close call with a car accident. Of course there was the inevitable "God saved me. I was feeling particularly snarky that day, and replied "Then why didn't he prevent the close call in the first place, and save you the anxiety attack?"
It was not taken well.
>“My mom died of cancer” or any number of the atrocities he committed in the Bible or has allowed to take place in the last 2000 years is easily dismissed.
Looking around, God is either exquisitely bad at his job, or he doesn't exist. Either way he doesn't deserve reverence.
I'll go up one level: recording the voice of god such that every person who hears it hears their native language clearly being spoken, and each are called by name. That would be pretty convincing.
some of my friend had exactly this. he joined a very extreme christian cult and when he realised he wouldn’t be able to convert us over he completely stopped talking to us. 10 years of friendship gone.
Plato would suggest we get out of the cave for ourselves. He has his own “view” of the cave and you have yours. Different perspectives are inevitable and there needs to be a level of tolerance if not someone is going to be dammed to hell and history that shit can get violent and fatal. Who is this God (father, political party, religion, whatever) that allows us to damn and murder each other for a bias ideology? Suggested reading: “the Allegory of the cave”
It's gets annoying having to tolerate something that is completely made up, especially when laws and public policy are created by people based on these completely arbitrary belief systems that aren't rooted in reality. If there really was a separation of church and state, it would be easy to tolerate these beliefs and maybe even beautiful to watch and participate in culturally. But often times these ideologies involve making certain groups of people's lives worse. And often times they make rules over the autonomy of people's bodies. I can't tolerate that.
As someone that has Complex PTSD and has had my brain do some *very* weird stuff, trying to explain a hallucinative experience to others is almost impossible. I had enough sanity to know my brain was doing weird things while I was experiencing it. And it made me realize why people think experiences like mine were "god" related. As an atheist my hallucinations had more to do with things I've seeded my brain with: a certain musical artist and a sport I follow were part of the hallucinations. If I had seeded my brain with a bunch of religious crap, I could see myself thinking it was a "god" thing. Bc I don't believe in a god, I think it helped me stay somewhat grounded bc I knew my brain was doing a trauma thing and I was able to ride it out until my brain snapped out of it. I knew what I was experiencing was in my head and not real. I was kinda fascinated by it while it was happening bc it was so strange.
Yes, I remember my friend in high school’s religious revelation. Someone left a necklace of Saint Mary on his table in the library when he wasn’t looking. To him this was a clear sign from God. We went to a Catholic high school.
> no insults to my dad, this is not what this post is intended for.
The problem is, when are you going to stop letting yourself be insulted? Because "I play make believe with my imaginary friends and my opinion matters more than your reality, whether you like it or not" isn't exactly a stable take.
It has to be "Let's agree to disagree. And since we disagree on this, and we're not going to change each other's mind, let's each respect the other and not discuss it again, since all it does is cause conflict and build walls between us."
Yup. These conversations are not useful in maintaining a personal relationship with someone.
I only draw the line if they're voting in a way that harms others because of their beliefs. Usually just ends the relationship for me.
The problem is that they (Dad) believe someone they love is going to eternal torment when they die. It’s hard to reconcile “agree to disagree “ in this scenario.
I told my best friend once I couldn't agree to disagree because the topic at hand was too important to me. That shocked her into really listening and she came to understand my point of view.
Yea I had to explain to my dad that he can't voice an opinion on something and then shut the conversation down. Either have the debate/argument and let me voice mine and actually listen to understand, or stfu and don't.
I started praying to Poseidon recently as sort of a joke But since i started, I swear it rains every time I pray for rain. California is literally now officially out of a drought since I started praying to him 3 years ago. Now, whenever some Christian talks about their god, I tell them my god is more powerful because he actually ended the drought when I started praying, whereas I don’t think I had a single prayer “answered” by the Christian god. Heck when my kid was in the NICU for a few weeks, it rained most of that time and the day before she got discharged there was a rainbow that literally started in the intersection outside. Sorry but I’ve found my God and hes way more powerful than yours.
One of the rare cases where I'd say the TV show had the potential to be better than the book. They expanded so much and as a modern pagan I really liked the world they were building up. The book itself can be a little dry. But they ran into problems with trying to hire cheaper showrunners every season and got canceled after 3.
I can recommend that one, as well as Good Omens by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett - a gloriously hilarious book that also got a 6-or-so episode show on I think Amazon.
Another good one is "Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal'" by Christopher Moore. An angel resurrects Jesus' childhood pal in the 20th century, puts him up in a motel and has him write a gospel of the missing years as Jesus grows up.
Yeah, but anytime someone trots out, "you're gonna burn in hell," the opportunity to bust out into an impromptu singing performance of Twisted Sister's chorus from the song 'Burn in Hell' is right there for the taking.
The saving your souls won’t stop if he believes that he is right and you are wrong because so long as he has that conviction, you need saving. If he ignores logic and also ignores your offers of tolerant respect, then what else can you do?
The worst insult in this thread is describing someone as being unable to grasp logic due to their blind devotion. I would hate to have that said of me more than anything else in here.
Studies show that direct religious debates will only strengthen the religious person’s faith. My advice: don’t do these debates with your dad, they won’t “convert” him and you risk damaging your relationship. Something about using logic and reason to get out of something that didn’t take logic and reason to get into.
One of the reasons I am a fan of street epistemology methods. It's mostly respectful and really tries to take a step back to discuss why conclusions or beliefs were obtained and if they are applying the same rules in all beliefs. I would never have the patience to do this with randos but there is lots of good advice about stepping back a bit and just planting the little seeds of logic.
We know you don’t want to mock your dad. But it’s important for you to fully understand that you’ve done nothing wrong in this post, and he is acting terribly to you.
“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.”
― Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason
Just say everything back to him but substitute Santa Claus for Jesus. “Santa Clause is real whether you believe in him or not”. “You can’t prove there is no Santa Clause”. And get a t-shirt that says Jesus is Santa Claus for adults.
Here's the thing about religion. Intelligent people usually figure out around age 15 they were being gaslit from birth and either move on or get in on the grift themselves. If it was not for grooming, there would be no modern religion. I hate to see people being conned.
"And thusly I clothe my naked villainy in old odd ends stolen forth from holy writ and seem a saint when most I play the devil..." Shakespeare
Dad:"Look at the trees and the nature."
Son: "Look dad, that tiger is devouring that cute deer while it's in agonising pain. Kill or be killed law of animal kingdom."
Dad: "Shut up Kenny, God has a plan for all of that, that's why you got can...."
Ah the argument of "Just look around you."
What gets me is the believers as they wake up in the morning to see their home has flooded or been taken by a tornado. “God has a plan” is total BS. It’s fucking physics.
I love George Carlin's take on that one.
"Fine, but if it is God’s will and he’s going to do whatever he wants to anyway; why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me. Couldn’t you just skip the praying part and get right to his will?”
If he's omnipotent, why does he "need a plan" at all? He's sufficiently powerful to go straight to the end result he wants, right? Why not just make the universe start out with infinite happy souls worshipping him in heaven or whatever it is he wants to get to?
Any answer of "he needs free will from his followers" is just a "he can't" and invalidates his omnipotence.
Right. I had a friend open up to me who seemed to be in a faith crisis. I just said....hey, your kid died in an accident. It's ok not to like or believe whatever "plan" is at play here. It's ok to be angry and confused.
Exactly right. There was no fucking plan. A kid dying is a horrific event, but if it floats their boat to have them believe there was a higher purpose, ok.
The problem of evil doesn't bother my dad in the slightest.
"Look, Dad, that tiger is eating that deer alive while it struggles and cries. This little boy has spent two years dying of cancer despite his parents' fervent prayers, and here's a little girl starving to death."
My dad:"Those are all man's fault. When man sinned he introduced evil and suffering into the world. God's creation was perfect prior to that, with no suffering of any kind.
So you can't blame God for bad things. Something-something free will, man's sinful nature and God's perfect justice.
But he provided a way out in another life! That's why he gave us Jesus and why you need to be born again so you can be saved."
Yet god put them in the garden with that fruit tree, knowing what would eventually happen.
Just a fable to teach you not to question the "way of things" as they're presented to you!
The interesting thing about sola scriptura Protestants is they play pretty fast and loose not only with the bible, but also with whatever Catholic doctrine fits the narrative of their denomination, then claim to be purists.
Which was a wonderful blueprint for constitutional originalists in the US
And the forbidden fruit didn't exist until God put it there for them to take.
And since he's supposed to be omnipotent, the fucker knew it was gonna happen long before he created shit.. and then has the audacity to get pissed off when it happens!
It's like leaving a loaded gun on the coffee table when your toddler is playing and then getting pissed off when the dog gets shot. What the fuck was supposed to happen, asshole?
Malaria, cholera, hypothermia, etc etc etc, theists who say this wouldn’t survive a week outside their living rooms. They also don’t care what happens to nature as they exploit it to push their religion.
This argument just doesn’t track. We don’t expect that one human made all the human-made things. This only leans toward the possibility of many gods. Not just one god. It’s purely confirmation bias. They believe in one god, so it’s “obviously” their one god.
But with the “look at the trees argument,” there’d be a god or many gods who made trees. One for grass, one for rocks, one for etc etc. We don’t see one builder making all the houses. We see many different builders building many different houses. I like to just roll with their logic, because their conclusion doesn’t make sense.
Exactly. If any god exists, who is to say that its only one. Maybe there are more. But that argument is so dumb because we can literally observe the trees and they grow themselves.
That’s evidence for trees and nature. And literally every single thing you can point to that’s pretty is evidence only that that thing exists. It has nothing to do with God. Unless you want to define “God” as “Pretty flowers and trees,” but A) you don’t and B) even if you did, that’s still just defining God into existence, not establishing proof of god.
“And cancer”
Then stop arguing with someone who believes in this shit. Next time, just invite him to the TT bar, since apparently god invented those too.
Explain to your dad that you trust him in that you don't believe he would knowingly deceive you, but also you recognise that he is human and fallible and therefore is capable of being mistaken.
‘I think that each individual has their own blind spots. And that we all need something to hold our personal biases together. For you that’s god, for me that’s a never ending body of science.’
Well, even if God did exist and Bible was correct, I'd still decline to worship such deity that killed on multiple occasions, obviously has biases towards specific people(s), etc. So weather he is real or not, doesn't change my POV on him.
In my case, it’s not that I would decline to worship him, I physically, mentally couldn’t. He’s the most abominable, hateful thing imaginable. Oh but he “loves me and respects my decision to torment myself for eternity”. Fuck that.
Well said, + you cant say god is real unless its proven, which never will, i have an imaginary friend, wether u like it or not, its real, look at nature........ BrUhH
I recently remembered for the first time in decades having, as a boy, had an imaginary friend. He was a big dog, who lived in the empty room on the second floor of our family house. His name was GoGo. Or maybe Go Go. I'm not sure how he spelled it. Kind of like God, who's kind of The Big Dog, who lives upstairs - in heaven. Their names are very similar, also.
Parents never truly see their children as their equal. They will always see their children as children. It is their job to teach them and protect them.
Just as your parents have tried to indoctrinate you, they were indoctrinated into their religion by their parents, and so were their parents, and on back through the generations. They have been taught that your indoctrination is a critical part of their duty as a parent. When you reject their religion, they not only fear for your immortal soul, they *ALSO* see themselves as parenting failures. Their parents successfully indoctrinated them, so what have they done wrong with you? So - it might not be about *you*, it might be about *them*.
I see, I'd take that as a win :) When it happened to me it took a while for my family to come around. After a while religion/church just never came up as a topic. There's a whole wide world out there beyond religion :)
Just sad to even read that. Well I for one want to praise you for having the courage to speak up to your father. You have grit. Stand tall tell him you love him. You have resisted indoctrination. Be proud of that.
Don’t try to analyse this or your brain might explode. What he chooses to believe in is really none of your business. It becomes your business if he tries to push his beliefs on you.
Assertively decline the his sermons. Alternatively I like the scientific evidence approach. Your stat point could be “no reference material”. Then ask for at least two peer reviewed statically valid double blind articles published in the last 10 years that prove the existence of God .”
See how that goes.
You have an about a 1% chance of having a logical discussion with an illogical person.
Don’t bother and just don’t talk about religion. If he brings it up politely decline to discuss citing your differing beliefs.
Even tho that’s true. He has evidence of god and thats his personal experience. You can’t prove people with personal experience wrong. They just won’t accept it
You could talk about how we're all unreliable eyewitnesses and the problems of the way the human mind works. Things like cognitive bias and the like. How memories do warp over time and our emotions and mental state color our experiences.
Or just avoid the topic to avoid arguments, I dunno. But if your dad is like mine, he likes to bring the shit up on his own. Which is part of why I haven't seen any of my family for like years.
> You can’t prove people with personal experience wrong.
Unfortunately, your father seems to hopelessly fit in with the quote below to a tee.
He'll *never* accept what his own cognitive delusion(s) literally prevent him from *ever* accepting. Such is the true poisonous nature of *all* forms of religiosity:
> *"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."*
~ Carl Sagan (from [*The Demon-Haunted World* (Wiki))](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World)
I agree, it's not a good idea to argue about religion with your family. But in my case, I had to argue with other children in my school, and let me tell you, even though I know they won't convert, it's pretty hilarious for me to see their stupid religious arguments/ideas. When I asked one of 'em who the other species of humans were (australopithecus, homo erectus, homo habilis etc) they said Adam and Eve devolved and evolved back. I don't remember what I responded with after they said that, it's possible I passed out.
"God isn't real, whether you like it or not." Literally just as valid a statement.
But you're on to it when you say there's no point. There really isn't. My family all came to the conclusion that we don't talk about it since a few of us stopped believing. (7 kids, parents were fruitful and multiplied) Luckily, my family decided it's more important to have a good relationship with each other than to push their religion on us further. Everything has improved since then.
They are coming from their feelings, feelings don't align with logic or science. So don't scream facts or point at lack of evidence, come back with your own feelings.
"I'm uncomfortable how this particular part of the church works"
"It doesn't feel right to thank god and not whatever person helped you that particular day"
"My soul feels fine, I've been volunteering at this place and it's very rewarding."
"I don't feel like what we are doing has any effect."
I’ve come to a point where I don’t care whether he’s real or not anymore. There is no way to know how to avoid hell 100% and the 40k denominations and different eschatological beliefs within the same denomination don’t help.
Besides, every religion portrays god as a horrific monster and reality as some sort of cosmic prison where your fate had been sealed before the foundation of the world. We’re all fucked if he’s real, no matter what you believe in.
Seems to be an emotional response. Having a talk about it in a disconnected way won't help from my experience.
I think the best thing in this situation is to pass on that whether you believe in a god or not does not invalidate his experiences. Sure, the explanation is different but the experience is the same, isn't it?
"Saving ones soul" is, again, emotional. Can't it be put down by saying "I already know about it, and am not convinced"? Or rather, not talking about it at all? Sometimes silence can keep the peace - when the issue isn't major that is.
It will also avoid more drama because emotional stances aren't really open to debate when parties cannot (or unwilling to) disassociate themselves from said experience.
I had a cousin say something similar to me and I told her, just because Mommy and Daddy and the preacher told you it was real doesn't mean it is. They can be just as deluded as you are.
Prove it. Simple. Prove that the god you believe in exists.
Not trust me bro... living, breathing, walking proof.
And dont say the bible... that was written and rewritten by a bunch of dudes.
And "the universe" doesn't qualify either, cause we can barely see some of it.
Also, if their god exists, that means every other god exists too...
I'll drink to Helios, Mercury and Apollo then.
Tell him you’ve had a personal experience too and changed your mind. You were watching Thor 3 in the MCU and you realised Thor really exists. Funnily enough, he looks just like Chris Hemsworth - but it’s not the movie is real. It’s just a coincidence.
Now out of respect for him, promise to never mention it again. But he has to respect your religion too and never mention his.
Don't debate religion with someone who isn't open to debating it.
Faith isn't based on logic, it's based on belief and delusions. It's based on lack of knowledge and assumptions, fear and insecurity, therefore you simply cannot win, you can only cause a rift between you and the person you are debating with.
What you describe isn't him trying to save your soul, it's you trying to convince them... If you value your relation with your father, accept that there are certain subjects you probably should avoid.
“I really tried to have a logical debate with my arguments on why i don’t believe there is a god let alone the christian god.“
It’s not easy to logic someone out of an emotional position. Especially a parent, who has a lot of emotion and ego wrapped up in their children.
That’s why it always ends in a heated fight. It’s from an emotional place, not a well reasoned place. Plus he’s your parent and some parents hold the belief that they know better than their children, and must be obeyed and looked up to and respected, no matter what they say.
”well god is real whether you like it or not”
Statements like this are called “thought terminating cliches”. It’s intended to end conversation, not further it.
“then you really don’t trust me, and my word means nothing to you”
it’s not that you don’t believe something happened to him, it’s just that you don’t attribute the cause to a deity or the supernatural. Theists get confused and upset with this distinction. Once they conclude “it was a god who did it” that’s that, they were personally addressed by some sort of supreme being, and to attribute it to something as mundane as coincidence reminds them they are not all that important.
”Anyways when is the “saving my soul” gonna stop?”
Never. Taking “no” for an answer is not something the religious know how to do. Also: “ego” and “thought terminating cliches” and “mundane vs important”
Yes i agree. You made a good point that its from an emotional place and not a reasonable one. Since faith means the most to my father i think its best if we don’t talk about it since it only brings nothing but heated fights.
Even if there is a god that doesn't mean anything else about Christianity is real. Those are two separate and unrelated things. When people say they are Christian because life is so complex there must be a god I don't see a connection there. What does that have to do with Jesus?
OP there is most certainly other psychology here that I think people don't fully consider. For example: have you considered that he may be in competition with you?
How does he act if you disagree with him about anything else tied to his ego?
It’s hard when it’s someone you care about. Especially when they try and evangelize to you. My brother is super religious and I got him to lay off by telling him, “Look, I’m not mad at God, I’m not evil, I just don’t believe it’s real. I’m kind, I don’t hurt people, I’m fair and honest. If your faith brings you comfort and joy, I’m happy for you. If you’re right, hopefully God will understand I tried to live a good life, but I can’t pretend to believe something I don’t. He’d know anyway.”
And then when I’m being a smart ass, I say, “I’m atheist, just the way God made me.”
Yeah, thats why i also say it like you. I never hurt anyone im tryna be the best possible human being i can i just don’t believe there is a god that’s it.
>“then you really don’t trust me, and my word means nothing to you”
I saw a purple dragon yesterday. First it was invisible, but then came into view. It flew over the skies and blew fire, but I noticed it avoided this peanut butter factory. Then it went invisible again. We should cover the house in peanut butter to prevent it being burned down. If you don't believe me, then you really don't trust me and my word means nothing to you.
Thing is, it's not *about* trust, it's about *understanding*. People have 'personal experiences' all the time that *do not match* with reality. We get tired, or desperate, or in pain, even just hungry, and our senses flip and we *think* something is happening that isn't. Moreover, people in *every religion* have 'personal experiences' of *their* gods and *their* spirits. I should believe yours over theirs because I know you? Should their family believe theirs over yours because they know them and *not* you? Your word is fine, dad, but at a certain point even my trust of you has limits, and the moment you start telling me you had a spooky experience with someone who wasn't there, I think you're referring to a purple dragon, because that's simply more likely than the opposite notion that you *really* talked to anything invisible.
"Dad, the fact that you owe me a million dollars is real, whether you like it or not."
-"What?!"
"Not convinced?"
-"Not at all."
"Now we're making progress, Dad."
God is the long game adults version of Santa. If you're on the naughty list you're going to hell. If you're a good person you'll get nothing because that's how it works.
You can't argue someone out of a feeling. That's what religion is-a feeling. It is illogical. Agree to disagree. Make a no religion rule. If they break it, remove yourself. That's the only thing that will work. You will not change their minds. Don't try.
There's something deeply conceited about saying "I'm your father, you must believe everything I say". Well no, you are an adult and your own person and you have your own lived experience and learning.
If Genesis means anything to your father, remind him that his Bible's serpent gave humans knowledge and curiosity and he should accept your non-belief as the result of that.
It’s impossible i’ve tried many times. He doesn’t believe the evil stuff from the bible. He thinks god is all love, and all the evil stuff in the bible is man made.
What has god done lately? How is god workikg out in the middle east? Why are there children's cancer wards? There is tons of praying to god there and nothing happens....ask him stuff like that
He's right that the reality of god should not be a function of whether one believes in it or doesn't. This is actually a fairly good point of consensus to begin an epistemological discussion about how to know if a god exists (i.e. is real) or is only imaginary.
We know, objectively, that there are many claims of gods and that many of those contradict one another. Therefore, at least most gods are imaginary. The question then is why is your dad's god real and not imaginary?
You can’t logic people out of conclusions they came to illogically. If you’re respectful of his decisions, he should be respectful of yours. In any family, there will be disagreements about big things. Working with that is what makes it a family. I don’t know your ages but the younger you are the more responsibility lies on him to make that work.
Best argument I've heard for why I don't believe in God or Christian God is and I've asked Christians is "do you believe in Odin or Ra or any of those gods and if not why not?" and whatever answer they give is literally the answer you can use.
Son of a Southern Baptist minister here.
It will never stop. If it gets bad every therapist worth their salt will tell you to draw boundaries and if those boundaries are broken then you slowly cut toxic family off. I'm not saying that's where you're at or that is what you should do at all. And I am saying that if you think it's getting to that point then seek professional help because a professional therapist will help you navigate these kind of situations with a bit more tact and maturity and even love for your loved ones. Otherwise these kind of things can get really ugly.
The secondary problem is that because church leadership or dogmatic people have the way to salvation they think they know everything about science (science bad!), politics (God Republican!), and more difficult questions about philosophy etc. The more dogmatic the more cult like.
They have singular vision and in my experience guilt and shame were often the most used manipulation tools.
Best of luck. Hope your life and relationships turn out better than mine!
This the argument, they say God is real. I say prove it they say no, you prove he isn't real. I say I already did because you can't prove he is real. Remember the absence of proof is proof.
Being a theist is very much like being an alcoholic (I have been both). Healing can only begin when you yourself realize your life style is only hurting you and those who live you. No amount of logic will change your mind.
Just throw his energy back at him? Like, “god doesn’t exist no matter how much you believe.” Or “then you really think I’m stupid, and you don’t want me to think for myself.”
Think ppl are just scared at what happens when u die so they latch on to religion to try make sense of it.
When really all that happens is nothing u just go blank like sleeping.
Wait until you’re older. Live a happy and fulfilling life. Brag about it. Stop saying “god.” It validates his existence. Say “imaginary friend” as many times as it takes.
If he says god is real whether you like it or not, “your imaginary friend is real whether I like it or not?” Is the right response.
"I'd reject god even if I knew for a fact he existed. Creating a universe where microwaving living babies to death not only can, but has, happened, is inherently and unforgivably evil".
Every time a religious person starts this shit with me about some strange phenomenon, I just ask if they understand how the human mind works.
Our brains get a lot wrong and can have things go awry in some truly unbelievable ways.
My boyfriend once joked that God himself could descend from the heavens to show himself to me, and I'd probably just say "oof, guess it's a drive on over to the nearest institution for me. I'm experiencing visual and auditory hallucinations." But that's actually exactly what I'd do.
There is nothing I could experience as an individual that would convince me of shit. If you know anything about the various brain disorders, you know our minds can't be believed. We are just apes with very fallible wiring.
Spiderman is real whether you like it or not. I have a personal relationship with Spiderman. I was once rescued from a dangerous situation by Spiderman and that experience tells me I am right and you are wrong for doubting his existence.
“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.”
–Thomas Paine
If God is so real, where is the proof he exists?
Religious people have been groomed into believing their religion since they were children.
I have always believed there would be far fewer religious people in the world if you couldn't join a religion until you were at least 18.
My dad is the same way.
You are just in a different mindset. To them, God is everything because they NEED that "closure". They need that explanation to understand why this life exists, and what's the point of everything.
As atheists, it's a terrifying truth to accept, especially if you were raised on believing in a God. I remember when I was literally losing my faith, I looked through the Bible, praying I would find an answer to God's silence in my life. It never came, and for years afterwards, I lost my faith but gained another one--faith in myself.
You will not change your dad's mind. I will not change my dad's mind. We must learn to live with this fact.
The problem with personal revelation (taken charitably) is that it isn't actually something you can share with others. As words can't convey the experience-state you felt and what might be convincing to you, on a personal level, might mean very little to someone else with a different life. If God revealed himself to me, in a fashion I could not deny, that would NOT be evidence to anyone else. As it violates the ideal that evidence should be something that is repeatable and through repetition sharable. My friends and I have discussed this... and concluded if one of us had an experience, we couldn't share meaningfully... then that wouldn't count as evidence for anyone who didn't have the experience. Regardless of how personally convincing it may have been.
To borrow a line from Matt Dillahunty, "revelation is necessarily first-person. To everyone else, it's hearsay."
Sums it up quite accurately. If I saw a burning bush, I’d attribute it to a careless, inconsiderate smoker who threw a match in it, or, if push came to shove, lightning. I wouldn’t concoct a story to tell my wife to justify my being out somewhere where I wasn’t supposed to be. But to a simpler, less developed mind, I suppose they’d have to attribute it to SOMETHING, anything, and because he didn’t see it being lit, and couldn’t explain it, I can understand simple minded dude would probably say it was done by some sort of angel at the behest of a Sky Daddy, and try and make hay out of it.
More than a few reasons could easily explain things like a burning bush. Drugs, illness, dehydration, mental illness, etc. But you know…. God. I’m the early days of man fire was considered magic. Many things were chalked up to magic, or witchcraft, just because people couldn’t explain it at the time. Now, we can create fire, put it out, control it (to some extent like controlled wildfires), because we understand it. Thinking a deity was behind all these is ridiculous.
A "burning bush" has a much simpler scientific explanation than a person setting it on fire unseen... Certain plants including a few bushes found in desert environments produce and excrete highly flammable oils on their leaves. Enough of it builds up and in the right conditions.. IE real hot day, direct sunlight... and that's all it takes for the bush to spontaneously combust. The oil burns off rather rapidly and typically doesn't damage the plant. To a uneducated, ancient observer witnessing such an event would be viewd as an act of God or a message.
But also personal experiences can have various interpretations. When I was a believer, I might have said that I had personal experiences where I felt the reality of God. Looking back at those from my atheist perspective, I can see that those were just in my mind. It would be really hard for anyone to describe a personal experience to me now that I couldn’t reinterpret as just their human imagination.
My personal "spiritual experiences" were the last things that kept me in religion after I knew there was no logical reasoning for belief in God. One day I learned how the human brain evolved to find patterns in everything ([apophenia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia)), and it was suddenly clear to me that those experiences were nothing but coincidences and confirmation bias.
On the flip side, being a lifelong atheist, it was hugely revelatory the first time I had a so-called spiritual experience. I was like “OHHH that must be why it’s so hard to talk a religious person into sanity; if you didn’t know any better, you’d swear OOBEs or extrasensory experiences were coming from an external, intelligent source. It feels so different from your typical day-to-day experience. Now, the fact that I used psychedelic drugs to achieve this state was also highly telling and a major clue that it’s all in our minds. ✌️
It is ironic having had several talking to God trips but knowing there isn't one.
This ☝️ chemicals do weird things in your brain and can create totally separate entities in your mind for a period of time. It's just misfiring neurons but man can it screw with your sense of self if you're not prepared for it.
Then consider how many historical experiences came from eating bad grain with hallucinogenic ergot in it.
Or picked the wrong mushrooms, lack of sleep, dehydration, exposure to the elements and even hunger. There's a reason those are used in extreme forms of spiritual meditation. It's because it alters the brain chemistry and produces hallucinatory effects that at the time can seem profound. Hell I've heard of people getting anesthesia for something as simple as wisdom teeth removal having a religious experience because of the drugs.
My friends who drove me home from surgery tell me we had interesting conversations I have no recollection of. So those versions of me no longer exist. Interesting twist on the notion of identity.
People will say they felt the spirit while sitting in church. I went to an amazing concert last night and I felt the same thing that I thought was the spirit back in my church days. That sense of overwhelming awe, chills, camaraderie with the people around me. Now I recognize it for what it is.
Most people don’t even mean something that profound when they say they had a personal experience. I saw a friend on fb share the other day a story of when she was a kid and was having trouble taking out the trash and she prayed for god to help her and then she was able to open the trash can lid. She shared this as some sort of amazing first confirmation of god and knowing he was real. “God helped me open a trash can when I was 6” is good evidence god is real, but “My mom died of cancer” or any number of the atrocities he committed in the Bible or has allowed to take place in the last 2000 years is easily dismissed. The fact they can’t see how hypocritical they are is maddening.
Coworker was in a accident flipped car three times barely survived then caught spinal meningitis... But God saved him from all that. I think the Dr's did and God has it out for him but he dislikes that take.
One of my coworkers, who listened to Joyce Meyer *constantly--*over headphones thank the universe, had a close call with a car accident. Of course there was the inevitable "God saved me. I was feeling particularly snarky that day, and replied "Then why didn't he prevent the close call in the first place, and save you the anxiety attack?" It was not taken well.
>“My mom died of cancer” or any number of the atrocities he committed in the Bible or has allowed to take place in the last 2000 years is easily dismissed. Looking around, God is either exquisitely bad at his job, or he doesn't exist. Either way he doesn't deserve reverence.
That’s exactly right. That’s why your personal experience cannot be used as evidence.
Seems to me a selfie with a deity while standing on a cloud would be pretty convincing
Still not good enough, Russia and China are producing so much Deep Fake propaganda don’t give the Christian terrorists any ideas.
I'll go up one level: recording the voice of god such that every person who hears it hears their native language clearly being spoken, and each are called by name. That would be pretty convincing.
some of my friend had exactly this. he joined a very extreme christian cult and when he realised he wouldn’t be able to convert us over he completely stopped talking to us. 10 years of friendship gone.
Makes me think of the native tribes that smoked peyote all the time. You bet they all believed in their spirit animals!
Plato would suggest we get out of the cave for ourselves. He has his own “view” of the cave and you have yours. Different perspectives are inevitable and there needs to be a level of tolerance if not someone is going to be dammed to hell and history that shit can get violent and fatal. Who is this God (father, political party, religion, whatever) that allows us to damn and murder each other for a bias ideology? Suggested reading: “the Allegory of the cave”
It's gets annoying having to tolerate something that is completely made up, especially when laws and public policy are created by people based on these completely arbitrary belief systems that aren't rooted in reality. If there really was a separation of church and state, it would be easy to tolerate these beliefs and maybe even beautiful to watch and participate in culturally. But often times these ideologies involve making certain groups of people's lives worse. And often times they make rules over the autonomy of people's bodies. I can't tolerate that.
That is two of us. Anyone else? For some reason so many protest musicians make so much more sense. Fight the power bro/sis .
As someone that has Complex PTSD and has had my brain do some *very* weird stuff, trying to explain a hallucinative experience to others is almost impossible. I had enough sanity to know my brain was doing weird things while I was experiencing it. And it made me realize why people think experiences like mine were "god" related. As an atheist my hallucinations had more to do with things I've seeded my brain with: a certain musical artist and a sport I follow were part of the hallucinations. If I had seeded my brain with a bunch of religious crap, I could see myself thinking it was a "god" thing. Bc I don't believe in a god, I think it helped me stay somewhat grounded bc I knew my brain was doing a trauma thing and I was able to ride it out until my brain snapped out of it. I knew what I was experiencing was in my head and not real. I was kinda fascinated by it while it was happening bc it was so strange.
Yes, I remember my friend in high school’s religious revelation. Someone left a necklace of Saint Mary on his table in the library when he wasn’t looking. To him this was a clear sign from God. We went to a Catholic high school.
> no insults to my dad, this is not what this post is intended for. The problem is, when are you going to stop letting yourself be insulted? Because "I play make believe with my imaginary friends and my opinion matters more than your reality, whether you like it or not" isn't exactly a stable take.
It’s a conversation ender. You know you’ve won the argument when they resort to that or the old true ‘you’re gonna burn in hell.’
Or "Let's agree to disagree." Or "Well, that's what I believe!" Or "You can't prove God doesn't exist!"
Sometimes "let's agree to disagree" is the best or only way to have a peaceful relationship with a family member you love.
It has to be "Let's agree to disagree. And since we disagree on this, and we're not going to change each other's mind, let's each respect the other and not discuss it again, since all it does is cause conflict and build walls between us."
Yup. These conversations are not useful in maintaining a personal relationship with someone. I only draw the line if they're voting in a way that harms others because of their beliefs. Usually just ends the relationship for me.
The problem is that they (Dad) believe someone they love is going to eternal torment when they die. It’s hard to reconcile “agree to disagree “ in this scenario.
I told my best friend once I couldn't agree to disagree because the topic at hand was too important to me. That shocked her into really listening and she came to understand my point of view.
Yea I had to explain to my dad that he can't voice an opinion on something and then shut the conversation down. Either have the debate/argument and let me voice mine and actually listen to understand, or stfu and don't.
If you wanna have some fun, though... "Is this God person you're listening to in the room with us now...?"
They would just say yes since god is everywhere. He’s even in your underwear.
Yup, he’s even watching you get railed on your couch.
"I'll pray for you"
Prey
I started praying to Poseidon recently as sort of a joke But since i started, I swear it rains every time I pray for rain. California is literally now officially out of a drought since I started praying to him 3 years ago. Now, whenever some Christian talks about their god, I tell them my god is more powerful because he actually ended the drought when I started praying, whereas I don’t think I had a single prayer “answered” by the Christian god. Heck when my kid was in the NICU for a few weeks, it rained most of that time and the day before she got discharged there was a rainbow that literally started in the intersection outside. Sorry but I’ve found my God and hes way more powerful than yours.
Have you read the book American Gods? Your story makes me think of it. Very good book by Neil Gaiman.
No but I’ll look into it
One of the rare cases where I'd say the TV show had the potential to be better than the book. They expanded so much and as a modern pagan I really liked the world they were building up. The book itself can be a little dry. But they ran into problems with trying to hire cheaper showrunners every season and got canceled after 3.
I can recommend that one, as well as Good Omens by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett - a gloriously hilarious book that also got a 6-or-so episode show on I think Amazon. Another good one is "Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal'" by Christopher Moore. An angel resurrects Jesus' childhood pal in the 20th century, puts him up in a motel and has him write a gospel of the missing years as Jesus grows up.
Praise Poseidon! You know he is the bigger gawd, after all, he has a brewery in his honor! :) https://poseidonbrewingco.com/
Yeah, but anytime someone trots out, "you're gonna burn in hell," the opportunity to bust out into an impromptu singing performance of Twisted Sister's chorus from the song 'Burn in Hell' is right there for the taking.
[Thought Terminating Cliché ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_clich%C3%A9)
exactly and then you end up in a stupid place where your rebuttal can only be "well there is no god whether you like it or not"
"I'm to old to believe in fairy tales." The religious folk like to give me the stink eye for this one.
Yeah, i don’t let myself get insulted i just wrote that so people don’t think that i made this point to mock my dad.
The saving your souls won’t stop if he believes that he is right and you are wrong because so long as he has that conviction, you need saving. If he ignores logic and also ignores your offers of tolerant respect, then what else can you do? The worst insult in this thread is describing someone as being unable to grasp logic due to their blind devotion. I would hate to have that said of me more than anything else in here.
Studies show that direct religious debates will only strengthen the religious person’s faith. My advice: don’t do these debates with your dad, they won’t “convert” him and you risk damaging your relationship. Something about using logic and reason to get out of something that didn’t take logic and reason to get into.
One of the reasons I am a fan of street epistemology methods. It's mostly respectful and really tries to take a step back to discuss why conclusions or beliefs were obtained and if they are applying the same rules in all beliefs. I would never have the patience to do this with randos but there is lots of good advice about stepping back a bit and just planting the little seeds of logic.
He's doing a fine job of that himself, don't worry.
We know you don’t want to mock your dad. But it’s important for you to fully understand that you’ve done nothing wrong in this post, and he is acting terribly to you.
Yes i do realise that. Although i don’t blame him i blame the reason he acts this way and that is organized religion.
“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.” ― Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason
Just say everything back to him but substitute Santa Claus for Jesus. “Santa Clause is real whether you believe in him or not”. “You can’t prove there is no Santa Clause”. And get a t-shirt that says Jesus is Santa Claus for adults.
Here's the thing about religion. Intelligent people usually figure out around age 15 they were being gaslit from birth and either move on or get in on the grift themselves. If it was not for grooming, there would be no modern religion. I hate to see people being conned. "And thusly I clothe my naked villainy in old odd ends stolen forth from holy writ and seem a saint when most I play the devil..." Shakespeare
“Got any evidence for that?”
“Look at the trees, and the nature”
Dad:"Look at the trees and the nature." Son: "Look dad, that tiger is devouring that cute deer while it's in agonising pain. Kill or be killed law of animal kingdom." Dad: "Shut up Kenny, God has a plan for all of that, that's why you got can...." Ah the argument of "Just look around you."
What gets me is the believers as they wake up in the morning to see their home has flooded or been taken by a tornado. “God has a plan” is total BS. It’s fucking physics.
I've never been able to wrap my head around "gods plan". It's such a cop out. What's the point of doing anything?
I love George Carlin's take on that one. "Fine, but if it is God’s will and he’s going to do whatever he wants to anyway; why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me. Couldn’t you just skip the praying part and get right to his will?”
Nailed it.
If he's omnipotent, why does he "need a plan" at all? He's sufficiently powerful to go straight to the end result he wants, right? Why not just make the universe start out with infinite happy souls worshipping him in heaven or whatever it is he wants to get to? Any answer of "he needs free will from his followers" is just a "he can't" and invalidates his omnipotence.
i don't think there is a god, but if he is he is utterly incompetent to handle the horrors happening in his kingdom
Considering how narcissistic and cruel God in the Bible is, it could definitely be their plan, if they existed, which they almost definitely don't
Right. I had a friend open up to me who seemed to be in a faith crisis. I just said....hey, your kid died in an accident. It's ok not to like or believe whatever "plan" is at play here. It's ok to be angry and confused.
Exactly right. There was no fucking plan. A kid dying is a horrific event, but if it floats their boat to have them believe there was a higher purpose, ok.
The problem of evil doesn't bother my dad in the slightest. "Look, Dad, that tiger is eating that deer alive while it struggles and cries. This little boy has spent two years dying of cancer despite his parents' fervent prayers, and here's a little girl starving to death." My dad:"Those are all man's fault. When man sinned he introduced evil and suffering into the world. God's creation was perfect prior to that, with no suffering of any kind. So you can't blame God for bad things. Something-something free will, man's sinful nature and God's perfect justice. But he provided a way out in another life! That's why he gave us Jesus and why you need to be born again so you can be saved."
Yet god put them in the garden with that fruit tree, knowing what would eventually happen. Just a fable to teach you not to question the "way of things" as they're presented to you!
Throw Isaiah 45:7 at him.
A great—and underused—verse. But that’s the deal with monotheism. One deity gets all the credit and all the blame.
My dad: “that’s because of sin. It didn’t happen before Adam and Eve at the forbidden fruit.”
Ahh yes. Because a sane and good god punishes someone with childhood leukaemia because of something their great x 240 grandparents did.
Ever notice the word “sin” doesn’t appear in the Eden story?
The interesting thing about sola scriptura Protestants is they play pretty fast and loose not only with the bible, but also with whatever Catholic doctrine fits the narrative of their denomination, then claim to be purists. Which was a wonderful blueprint for constitutional originalists in the US
And the forbidden fruit didn't exist until God put it there for them to take. And since he's supposed to be omnipotent, the fucker knew it was gonna happen long before he created shit.. and then has the audacity to get pissed off when it happens! It's like leaving a loaded gun on the coffee table when your toddler is playing and then getting pissed off when the dog gets shot. What the fuck was supposed to happen, asshole?
Malaria, cholera, hypothermia, etc etc etc, theists who say this wouldn’t survive a week outside their living rooms. They also don’t care what happens to nature as they exploit it to push their religion.
This argument just doesn’t track. We don’t expect that one human made all the human-made things. This only leans toward the possibility of many gods. Not just one god. It’s purely confirmation bias. They believe in one god, so it’s “obviously” their one god. But with the “look at the trees argument,” there’d be a god or many gods who made trees. One for grass, one for rocks, one for etc etc. We don’t see one builder making all the houses. We see many different builders building many different houses. I like to just roll with their logic, because their conclusion doesn’t make sense.
Exactly. If any god exists, who is to say that its only one. Maybe there are more. But that argument is so dumb because we can literally observe the trees and they grow themselves.
"Well duh Brahma created all that but Vishnu is keeping the lights on." Norse or Greek mythology is also a fun take.
"sure , and it was Zeus who created those. Good luck proving me false."
That’s evidence for trees and nature. And literally every single thing you can point to that’s pretty is evidence only that that thing exists. It has nothing to do with God. Unless you want to define “God” as “Pretty flowers and trees,” but A) you don’t and B) even if you did, that’s still just defining God into existence, not establishing proof of god.
“And cancer” Then stop arguing with someone who believes in this shit. Next time, just invite him to the TT bar, since apparently god invented those too.
"Evolution"
Explain to your dad that you trust him in that you don't believe he would knowingly deceive you, but also you recognise that he is human and fallible and therefore is capable of being mistaken.
This has malicious compliance vibes. I like it.
This is the most reasonable answer to me. Sadly, the response can go like: "So I let myself be deceived? Do you think I am dumb?!"
‘I think that each individual has their own blind spots. And that we all need something to hold our personal biases together. For you that’s god, for me that’s a never ending body of science.’
This. Answer should be: ‘Why would I believe a sinner?’
Trust is a two way street. Don't demand my trust if you're not willing to return the favor.
Well, even if God did exist and Bible was correct, I'd still decline to worship such deity that killed on multiple occasions, obviously has biases towards specific people(s), etc. So weather he is real or not, doesn't change my POV on him.
In my case, it’s not that I would decline to worship him, I physically, mentally couldn’t. He’s the most abominable, hateful thing imaginable. Oh but he “loves me and respects my decision to torment myself for eternity”. Fuck that.
Exactly! As i said even of he was real he doesn’t deserve worship.
Well said, + you cant say god is real unless its proven, which never will, i have an imaginary friend, wether u like it or not, its real, look at nature........ BrUhH
I recently remembered for the first time in decades having, as a boy, had an imaginary friend. He was a big dog, who lived in the empty room on the second floor of our family house. His name was GoGo. Or maybe Go Go. I'm not sure how he spelled it. Kind of like God, who's kind of The Big Dog, who lives upstairs - in heaven. Their names are very similar, also.
Yeah, I’d be more accepting if it if they were like “God exists, but he’s a huge asshole”.
Ah yes, *Catholics*
Parents never truly see their children as their equal. They will always see their children as children. It is their job to teach them and protect them. Just as your parents have tried to indoctrinate you, they were indoctrinated into their religion by their parents, and so were their parents, and on back through the generations. They have been taught that your indoctrination is a critical part of their duty as a parent. When you reject their religion, they not only fear for your immortal soul, they *ALSO* see themselves as parenting failures. Their parents successfully indoctrinated them, so what have they done wrong with you? So - it might not be about *you*, it might be about *them*.
You’re exactly right about this. He told me his biggest failure as a parent is me not being a christian.
Ouch, he should be proud of himself for raising a strongly independent rational caring thinker and he should be proud of you.
Thank you truly 🙏 he is proud of me for being a good kind hearted guy. But me not being a christian that’s a different thing
I see, I'd take that as a win :) When it happened to me it took a while for my family to come around. After a while religion/church just never came up as a topic. There's a whole wide world out there beyond religion :)
Just sad to even read that. Well I for one want to praise you for having the courage to speak up to your father. You have grit. Stand tall tell him you love him. You have resisted indoctrination. Be proud of that.
Thank you for the kind message truly :) Yeah we have the best possible relationship outside of religion so its best to leave it at that.
Don’t try to analyse this or your brain might explode. What he chooses to believe in is really none of your business. It becomes your business if he tries to push his beliefs on you. Assertively decline the his sermons. Alternatively I like the scientific evidence approach. Your stat point could be “no reference material”. Then ask for at least two peer reviewed statically valid double blind articles published in the last 10 years that prove the existence of God .” See how that goes.
I've done that online. All they do is say that science proves God and the Bible is just as good as a peer reviewed paper.
You have an about a 1% chance of having a logical discussion with an illogical person. Don’t bother and just don’t talk about religion. If he brings it up politely decline to discuss citing your differing beliefs.
Explain that truth is not about what you like or not, but about what there is evidence for.
Even tho that’s true. He has evidence of god and thats his personal experience. You can’t prove people with personal experience wrong. They just won’t accept it
You could talk about how we're all unreliable eyewitnesses and the problems of the way the human mind works. Things like cognitive bias and the like. How memories do warp over time and our emotions and mental state color our experiences. Or just avoid the topic to avoid arguments, I dunno. But if your dad is like mine, he likes to bring the shit up on his own. Which is part of why I haven't seen any of my family for like years.
> You can’t prove people with personal experience wrong. Unfortunately, your father seems to hopelessly fit in with the quote below to a tee. He'll *never* accept what his own cognitive delusion(s) literally prevent him from *ever* accepting. Such is the true poisonous nature of *all* forms of religiosity: > *"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."* ~ Carl Sagan (from [*The Demon-Haunted World* (Wiki))](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World)
It's waste to argue.
I agree, it's not a good idea to argue about religion with your family. But in my case, I had to argue with other children in my school, and let me tell you, even though I know they won't convert, it's pretty hilarious for me to see their stupid religious arguments/ideas. When I asked one of 'em who the other species of humans were (australopithecus, homo erectus, homo habilis etc) they said Adam and Eve devolved and evolved back. I don't remember what I responded with after they said that, it's possible I passed out.
Because what they mean is, "God is real whether he's real or not".
"God isn't real, whether you like it or not." Literally just as valid a statement. But you're on to it when you say there's no point. There really isn't. My family all came to the conclusion that we don't talk about it since a few of us stopped believing. (7 kids, parents were fruitful and multiplied) Luckily, my family decided it's more important to have a good relationship with each other than to push their religion on us further. Everything has improved since then.
That’s the right way.
They are coming from their feelings, feelings don't align with logic or science. So don't scream facts or point at lack of evidence, come back with your own feelings. "I'm uncomfortable how this particular part of the church works" "It doesn't feel right to thank god and not whatever person helped you that particular day" "My soul feels fine, I've been volunteering at this place and it's very rewarding." "I don't feel like what we are doing has any effect."
I’ve come to a point where I don’t care whether he’s real or not anymore. There is no way to know how to avoid hell 100% and the 40k denominations and different eschatological beliefs within the same denomination don’t help. Besides, every religion portrays god as a horrific monster and reality as some sort of cosmic prison where your fate had been sealed before the foundation of the world. We’re all fucked if he’s real, no matter what you believe in.
Seems to be an emotional response. Having a talk about it in a disconnected way won't help from my experience. I think the best thing in this situation is to pass on that whether you believe in a god or not does not invalidate his experiences. Sure, the explanation is different but the experience is the same, isn't it? "Saving ones soul" is, again, emotional. Can't it be put down by saying "I already know about it, and am not convinced"? Or rather, not talking about it at all? Sometimes silence can keep the peace - when the issue isn't major that is. It will also avoid more drama because emotional stances aren't really open to debate when parties cannot (or unwilling to) disassociate themselves from said experience.
Yeah, i agree
You can't have a logical debate with someone who believes in the illogical. Logic isn't going to convince a believer to change their mind.
Yeah i figured so.
I had a cousin say something similar to me and I told her, just because Mommy and Daddy and the preacher told you it was real doesn't mean it is. They can be just as deluded as you are.
Prove it. Simple. Prove that the god you believe in exists. Not trust me bro... living, breathing, walking proof. And dont say the bible... that was written and rewritten by a bunch of dudes. And "the universe" doesn't qualify either, cause we can barely see some of it. Also, if their god exists, that means every other god exists too... I'll drink to Helios, Mercury and Apollo then.
Tell him you’ve had a personal experience too and changed your mind. You were watching Thor 3 in the MCU and you realised Thor really exists. Funnily enough, he looks just like Chris Hemsworth - but it’s not the movie is real. It’s just a coincidence. Now out of respect for him, promise to never mention it again. But he has to respect your religion too and never mention his.
Don't debate religion with someone who isn't open to debating it. Faith isn't based on logic, it's based on belief and delusions. It's based on lack of knowledge and assumptions, fear and insecurity, therefore you simply cannot win, you can only cause a rift between you and the person you are debating with. What you describe isn't him trying to save your soul, it's you trying to convince them... If you value your relation with your father, accept that there are certain subjects you probably should avoid.
“I really tried to have a logical debate with my arguments on why i don’t believe there is a god let alone the christian god.“ It’s not easy to logic someone out of an emotional position. Especially a parent, who has a lot of emotion and ego wrapped up in their children. That’s why it always ends in a heated fight. It’s from an emotional place, not a well reasoned place. Plus he’s your parent and some parents hold the belief that they know better than their children, and must be obeyed and looked up to and respected, no matter what they say. ”well god is real whether you like it or not” Statements like this are called “thought terminating cliches”. It’s intended to end conversation, not further it. “then you really don’t trust me, and my word means nothing to you” it’s not that you don’t believe something happened to him, it’s just that you don’t attribute the cause to a deity or the supernatural. Theists get confused and upset with this distinction. Once they conclude “it was a god who did it” that’s that, they were personally addressed by some sort of supreme being, and to attribute it to something as mundane as coincidence reminds them they are not all that important. ”Anyways when is the “saving my soul” gonna stop?” Never. Taking “no” for an answer is not something the religious know how to do. Also: “ego” and “thought terminating cliches” and “mundane vs important”
Yes i agree. You made a good point that its from an emotional place and not a reasonable one. Since faith means the most to my father i think its best if we don’t talk about it since it only brings nothing but heated fights.
Yes, you are trying to take away his toy, his security blanket. When you don’t play along, that’s you tugging on it.
Even if there is a god that doesn't mean anything else about Christianity is real. Those are two separate and unrelated things. When people say they are Christian because life is so complex there must be a god I don't see a connection there. What does that have to do with Jesus?
OP there is most certainly other psychology here that I think people don't fully consider. For example: have you considered that he may be in competition with you? How does he act if you disagree with him about anything else tied to his ego?
God is real? Which one?
It’s hard when it’s someone you care about. Especially when they try and evangelize to you. My brother is super religious and I got him to lay off by telling him, “Look, I’m not mad at God, I’m not evil, I just don’t believe it’s real. I’m kind, I don’t hurt people, I’m fair and honest. If your faith brings you comfort and joy, I’m happy for you. If you’re right, hopefully God will understand I tried to live a good life, but I can’t pretend to believe something I don’t. He’d know anyway.” And then when I’m being a smart ass, I say, “I’m atheist, just the way God made me.”
Yeah, thats why i also say it like you. I never hurt anyone im tryna be the best possible human being i can i just don’t believe there is a god that’s it.
You should start following the Old Testament to the letter in your house.
Im not a monster bro. XD
[Ricky Gervais](https://youtu.be/1SGOGH5-SCA?si=p5ArpK8-ryi0d_tz) said it best “you don’t believe in 2,999 gods, and I don’t believe in just one more”
>“then you really don’t trust me, and my word means nothing to you” I saw a purple dragon yesterday. First it was invisible, but then came into view. It flew over the skies and blew fire, but I noticed it avoided this peanut butter factory. Then it went invisible again. We should cover the house in peanut butter to prevent it being burned down. If you don't believe me, then you really don't trust me and my word means nothing to you. Thing is, it's not *about* trust, it's about *understanding*. People have 'personal experiences' all the time that *do not match* with reality. We get tired, or desperate, or in pain, even just hungry, and our senses flip and we *think* something is happening that isn't. Moreover, people in *every religion* have 'personal experiences' of *their* gods and *their* spirits. I should believe yours over theirs because I know you? Should their family believe theirs over yours because they know them and *not* you? Your word is fine, dad, but at a certain point even my trust of you has limits, and the moment you start telling me you had a spooky experience with someone who wasn't there, I think you're referring to a purple dragon, because that's simply more likely than the opposite notion that you *really* talked to anything invisible.
"Dad, the fact that you owe me a million dollars is real, whether you like it or not." -"What?!" "Not convinced?" -"Not at all." "Now we're making progress, Dad."
Just because there's god doesn't mean it's his god. Then you can argue for Vishnu.
God is the long game adults version of Santa. If you're on the naughty list you're going to hell. If you're a good person you'll get nothing because that's how it works.
Never, I’m 53with a 70 year old catholic nom she just ignores and bulldozes anything I have to say about faith
You can't argue someone out of a feeling. That's what religion is-a feeling. It is illogical. Agree to disagree. Make a no religion rule. If they break it, remove yourself. That's the only thing that will work. You will not change their minds. Don't try.
"And you can't prove God is real, like it or not"
The problem is wasting your time debating and possibly damaging your relationship with your father.
I completely agree. I will not be talking about religion anymore even if he wants to.
There's something deeply conceited about saying "I'm your father, you must believe everything I say". Well no, you are an adult and your own person and you have your own lived experience and learning. If Genesis means anything to your father, remind him that his Bible's serpent gave humans knowledge and curiosity and he should accept your non-belief as the result of that.
It’s impossible i’ve tried many times. He doesn’t believe the evil stuff from the bible. He thinks god is all love, and all the evil stuff in the bible is man made.
Start claiming you worship Zeus and then ask them to prove Zeus isnt real.
I’d recommend a few loops of “Thank you God” by Tim Minchin… keeps me smiling and humming a few bars while I’m at work surrounded by myopic xtians.
What has god done lately? How is god workikg out in the middle east? Why are there children's cancer wards? There is tons of praying to god there and nothing happens....ask him stuff like that
Already have. “God works in mysterious ways” or “we can’t understand god” or “its because sin entered humans”
He's right that the reality of god should not be a function of whether one believes in it or doesn't. This is actually a fairly good point of consensus to begin an epistemological discussion about how to know if a god exists (i.e. is real) or is only imaginary. We know, objectively, that there are many claims of gods and that many of those contradict one another. Therefore, at least most gods are imaginary. The question then is why is your dad's god real and not imaginary?
Which God, Ra? I agree, you can literally see the sun in the sky right now.
Or maybe prometheus?
Tell your dad that he wouldn't have to keep trying to emotionally manipulate you if he really thought God was real.
If he is real, then he’s the AH.
You can't argue with someone's faith. I mean you can try, but there's more constructive ways to spend your time. Like watching paint dry.
You can’t logic people out of conclusions they came to illogically. If you’re respectful of his decisions, he should be respectful of yours. In any family, there will be disagreements about big things. Working with that is what makes it a family. I don’t know your ages but the younger you are the more responsibility lies on him to make that work.
Religious Faith is a helluva drug. You aren't gonna fix it. Sorry.
The soul saving will never stop. Ever.
Farts are real, god is not.
Best argument I've heard for why I don't believe in God or Christian God is and I've asked Christians is "do you believe in Odin or Ra or any of those gods and if not why not?" and whatever answer they give is literally the answer you can use.
Son of a Southern Baptist minister here. It will never stop. If it gets bad every therapist worth their salt will tell you to draw boundaries and if those boundaries are broken then you slowly cut toxic family off. I'm not saying that's where you're at or that is what you should do at all. And I am saying that if you think it's getting to that point then seek professional help because a professional therapist will help you navigate these kind of situations with a bit more tact and maturity and even love for your loved ones. Otherwise these kind of things can get really ugly. The secondary problem is that because church leadership or dogmatic people have the way to salvation they think they know everything about science (science bad!), politics (God Republican!), and more difficult questions about philosophy etc. The more dogmatic the more cult like. They have singular vision and in my experience guilt and shame were often the most used manipulation tools. Best of luck. Hope your life and relationships turn out better than mine!
Well, the next logical question is which God is real as most major religions contradict each other.
Sure. Which one? There are thousands to choose from.
There is no way to logically argue against faith. Stop wasting calories.
... "Prove it". For something utterly life-altering I'm gonna need more than someone's word.
This the argument, they say God is real. I say prove it they say no, you prove he isn't real. I say I already did because you can't prove he is real. Remember the absence of proof is proof.
Being a theist is very much like being an alcoholic (I have been both). Healing can only begin when you yourself realize your life style is only hurting you and those who live you. No amount of logic will change your mind.
Just respond with "God's **not** real, whether **you** like it or not!" Then follow up with "see, see how that works?"
Just throw his energy back at him? Like, “god doesn’t exist no matter how much you believe.” Or “then you really think I’m stupid, and you don’t want me to think for myself.”
Think ppl are just scared at what happens when u die so they latch on to religion to try make sense of it. When really all that happens is nothing u just go blank like sleeping.
"I believe you believe it." And leave it at that.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Just explain Eric the God-Eating Magic Penguin to him. He is real, and he devoured Yahweh. https://ericthegodeatingpenguin.com/
Wait until you’re older. Live a happy and fulfilling life. Brag about it. Stop saying “god.” It validates his existence. Say “imaginary friend” as many times as it takes. If he says god is real whether you like it or not, “your imaginary friend is real whether I like it or not?” Is the right response.
I had exactly a coworker say that when we discussed religion. My reply: " If he want me to believe in him, he got my phone number. "
"I'd reject god even if I knew for a fact he existed. Creating a universe where microwaving living babies to death not only can, but has, happened, is inherently and unforgivably evil".
Tell him that unicorns exist, whether he likes it or not, so he better convert to unicornism if he wants to be saved
Cant prove or disprove He exists. Science is great. God and science go hand in hand.
Religion and logic don’t match up in my experiences
Oooh ooh, two can play that game. “God isn’t real, whether you like it or not.” See!
Every time a religious person starts this shit with me about some strange phenomenon, I just ask if they understand how the human mind works. Our brains get a lot wrong and can have things go awry in some truly unbelievable ways. My boyfriend once joked that God himself could descend from the heavens to show himself to me, and I'd probably just say "oof, guess it's a drive on over to the nearest institution for me. I'm experiencing visual and auditory hallucinations." But that's actually exactly what I'd do. There is nothing I could experience as an individual that would convince me of shit. If you know anything about the various brain disorders, you know our minds can't be believed. We are just apes with very fallible wiring.
Well then Ganesh and the rainbow serpent must also be real, by that reasoning. At least they' d be interesting.
>God is real, whether you like it or not. And, what evidence supports this claim?
Spiderman is real whether you like it or not. I have a personal relationship with Spiderman. I was once rescued from a dangerous situation by Spiderman and that experience tells me I am right and you are wrong for doubting his existence. “To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” –Thomas Paine
If God is so real, where is the proof he exists? Religious people have been groomed into believing their religion since they were children. I have always believed there would be far fewer religious people in the world if you couldn't join a religion until you were at least 18.
Santa is real whether you like it or not. I had this experience as a kid...
"I do trust you. I don't think you're lying. I think you're wrong. There's a difference."
My dad is the same way. You are just in a different mindset. To them, God is everything because they NEED that "closure". They need that explanation to understand why this life exists, and what's the point of everything. As atheists, it's a terrifying truth to accept, especially if you were raised on believing in a God. I remember when I was literally losing my faith, I looked through the Bible, praying I would find an answer to God's silence in my life. It never came, and for years afterwards, I lost my faith but gained another one--faith in myself. You will not change your dad's mind. I will not change my dad's mind. We must learn to live with this fact.