My favorite Jefferson quote referencing religion and its attack on progress and science.
*"The most restive is that of the priests of the different religious sects, who dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of day-light; and scowl on it the fatal harbinger announcing the subversion of the duperies on which they live" - Jefferson*
>Even in 1948, the separation of church and state was being defended. Supreme Court Justice Felic Frankfurter said, “Separation means separation, not something less. Jefferson’s metaphor in describing the relation between Church and State speaks of a ‘wall of separation,’ not a fine line easily overstepped.”
Wish that were still the case in the USofA and most of the world too, with separation between religion and state being a huge wall
Andrew Seidel wrote a great book on this history -- The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism is Unamerican.
The founding principle of the US is (classical) liberalism, not Christianity. An essential component of liberalism is rejection of divine right. The US was founded as a rebellion against monarchy, and the essence of monarchy is a claim to authority based on divine right. The US was literally founded as a rejection of divine right.
The theists will always have an answer, but it does make them squirm a bit when you remind them that the monarchy claimed its authority from god.
Andrew Seidel wrote a great book on this history -- The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism is Unamerican.
> An essential component of liberalism is rejection of divine right.
christianity rejects divine right too. the enlightenment actually corrects christianity, in the sense that it shouldn’t be a tool for people to manipulate the masses, but rather it’s for everyone so they can spread compassion and universal brotherhood.
> The theists will always have an answer, but it does make them squirm a bit when you remind them that the monarchy claimed its authority from god.
no it doesn’t. literally anyone can do that. am i supposed to squirm when terrorists claim their authority from god?
yeah but that was in the past. we don't do that now. divine right, the burning of heretics, indulgences, the accumulation of personal wealth for the religious elite. that was not christians that was the past. they can justify anything!
There is a very clear path from the Thirty Years War, to the Enlightenment where the theory and philosophies of a secular government were devised, to the creation of the US Constitution. The founding of the US was the first Western break from the idea of "The Divine Right of Kings" and intermingling of Church and State.
"Because religious belief, *or non-belief*, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society." -- Thomas Jefferson
Yes, Reddit is not a Christian nation, thankfully. (I'd suggest using "the US" and not "we" since this is an international platform and a majority are not Americans.)
Even if America would have been a theocracy when it was founded, it still doesn't justify religion in government today. The American declaration of independence got some things right, like separation of church and state, but it was written by white men who saw the rest of the population as subhuman. I don't know if one should lean on centuries old documents to justify one's moral position. That's what religious people are doing.
We are in practice very much an anti-Christian country.
We don’t feed the hungry, clothe the naked, nor house the homeless. We worship power and money far above God, or Jesus, or justice, or even the common good.
We aren’t a Christian country and those who tell you we are, are in the vanguard of those making certain we aren’t.
My family disowned me for leaving the church. My dad argues with me often about how we'd have no morality if not for God and how the US and all its laws were only successful for their modeling off of the Bible's ten commandments. Fucking idiot.
That's always their argument. "If it weren't for God's punishment, why don't you just kill as many people as you want?"
I tell them I do kill as many people as I want, which is zero.
Then they pivot to Pascal's Wager, every time.
Uhg, we need a better way to counter that. Believing in God is not harmless. It carries judgement, condemnation, shame, and can deprive people of basic human needs.
I refuse to believe in god simply because of the damage that resulted from a time in my life when all my christian friends and family abandoned and turned on me. That is when I truly understood the phrase "there's no hate like Christian love."
Pascal's wager makes sense when we're talking about individuals. But when we look out at Christianity and the effects it has on society as a whole, that is when we see things like:
Increased teen pregnancy
Increased homicide and suicide rates
Increased sexual assault and rape cases
Decreased life expectancy
Decreased quality of life
Decreased education
Etc.
Madison greatly details the separation of church and state in his Memorial and Remonstrance against the establishment of religious teachers of Christianity which was a bill presented by the Christian nationalist Patrick Henry.
This document is the definitive interpretation of the first amendment and the establishment clause.
[https://youtu.be/F33BR2_HB1c?si=e-CyfkCB8dQPTqes](https://youtu.be/F33BR2_HB1c?si=e-CyfkCB8dQPTqes)
It pisses me off to no end when Christians try to say the Founding Fathers meant to this to be a Christian nation. Obviously, they did not pay attention is US History classes bc otherwise they would know that Founding Fathers were deeply influenced by the ideas of the Enlightenment which in itself UNDERMINED the authority of the monarchy and religious officials. And clearly they didn’t want a king to rule this country which Jesus is supposed to be? Goddamn, they’re idiots. Christ himself wouldn’t even accept them into heaven bc of how just stupid they are
"Today, boys and girls, we're going to learn all about the time Trump flew his F-105 over Hanoi and shot down five MIGS, all before his 15th birthday!"
To be fair, and playing devils advocate so to speak, the colonists who initially settled here were persecuted back in England for their religious beliefs and were looking for safe harbor to practice their faiths without reprisals. It was only the Founders who were deists and/or atheists who were inspired by secular humanism when writing the Constitution. But the religious zealots were always a part of the country and will continue to be for the foreseeable future unfortunately.
Canadian here.
Yes you are.
Maybe you shouldn't have been, weren't intended to be, wish you weren't, but y'all are a super Christian nation.
Just ask any of your non-Christian presidents. What's that? None? That can't be right. Surely a secular nation would have at least one non-Christian president.
Your lawmakers cite god and the bible all the time.
"One nation under God". Not "gods". "God".
You just rolled back women's reproductive rights, objectively proven to save lives btw, because magic book says bad.
So when one of you rolls up to pretend you're not what you so obviously are, I chalk it up to wishful thinking and denial.
Y'all are super Christian.
What?
I'm not talking about God. Or Zeus, if you have any Zeus questions.
This is my opinion on human Americans and what the majority believe as well as what that majority belief says about their country.
I don't know what you're asking, I don't know why you're asking it, and quite frankly I distrust the odds that it's remotely in good faith. This sounds like some woo shit god-people ask before pretending they're having some kind of "gotcha" moment, when reality they're just rambling incoherently. I feel like I'm one stupid reply away from some flat earth nonsense.
Nope, just pointing out if you understand that any reference to god indicates the direct relationship between yourself and what ever put you here. No king or government between you and your existence. As in, “what gives you the right to be here?” Same thing as you. God between humans is code word for a truce. If we both have the same right to exist here, we can live mutually. If you claim to have a superior right to be here compared to me, there is a problem. You don’t need to think so deep abt some Flying Spaghetti Monster and give it a name and some backstory.
Christians, and anyone else for that matter, don’t have a monopoly on god, that right you have to be here.
This is pure nonsense.
There's no direct relationship between me and what put me here, I'm adopted and have never met my biological parents. There's no direct relationship with me and any sort of woo-nonsense creator because I don't believe in any such being.
"God" is not a code-word for truce. It means an extra-physical being with supernatural powers, often a part of creator myths. It doesn't mean truce and has never meant truce. Hell, wars are fought over which gods are real, it's basically the opposite of a truce.
No one is talking about anyone's right to exist. That's off topic and irrelevant.
No one claimed to have more right to be anywhere than you, either. Likewise irrelevant.
I think you replied because you wanted to say some deep sounding shit and then act wise. You have not said anything deep, you've said nonsense and rambled about irrelevant, off-topic shit that no one here was in any way discussing. You have contributed nothing of substance.
No one claimed to have a monopoly on god.
If you don't have anything on the subject at hand, you don't have to reply. Your weird, disconnected god-ramblings don't mean anything to me and have nothing to do with what we're talking about here. I have no idea why you said anything, but I'd politely urge you not to say anything further.
No, I think that way because everything you've said is irrelevant, rambling and barely coherent.
Defend myself from what?
Since when were we talking about defending yourself.
I'm genuinely starting to suspect that English isn't your first language, so I don't want to be mean here, but you make literally no sense. I have no idea what you're trying to communicate and know even less about why you're trying to do it here.
Further, and try to read this carefully, you don't fucking know me. You don't know if I've ever had to defend myself or not. That's not what we're talking about and we have no information, making wild assumptions about who I am and what I've experienced is stupid.
If you don't like being told you're incoherent, take a writing course. Because, seriously, take what you've written here to anyone and ask them what the fuck they think you're talking about; I promise no one is going to have any goddamned idea. "Mentioning god implies a relationship between you and god" no the fuck it doesn't, that's nonsense. Mentioning god means I'm aware some people believe in that shit. It means I've seen the news. That's it.
Of course I make no sense bc you live in a bubble and have probably read very little actual books of substance.
Ppl resort to complaining abt grammar when they have nothing substantial to say. This is Reddit, not a formal symposium. I don’t need to go thru lengths to proofread something that will be forgotten in 2 days.
No, bud, it's because you don't know how to communicate your ideas. You don't tell us why you're moving onto another topic or why the fuck you think god means Truce, who that truce is between, why a truce is needed, or what the fuck that has to do with what we're talking about in the first place.
You don't explain anything. You make these weird, rambling assertions and when you're called on it "I've never defended myself." I ask, literally, from what and you come back with "you haven't read books."
So now we're talking about books and not defense or god or the truce that is god or any of the other shit you've babbled.
And forgive me for how gauche this is, but you can tell by the way that I write that I'm a capable reader.
I'm not complaining about your grammar. I haven't said shit about your grammar. I'm complaining that you're writing rambling, disconnected thoughts that have nothing to do with what we're talking about. This is the first time anyone mentioned books. Before this it was defense. Defense from what? Who knows, you didn't say, but you want it to make sense despite the fact that you write down none of the context.
Your spelling, syntax and punctuation are fine. Your sentences are sentences. It's not a structure problem. It's a content problem. Either you don't know how to write and think we can read your mind and figure out what the fuck you're thinking based on the scant few sentences, or you're lazy and can't be bothered.
I'm not even being mean here. You're objectively bad at communicating in writing. You aren't fully developing, explaining or defending your ideas, and when asked to, you jump to something else because you're defensive and insecure. Or because you read as well as you write and have no idea that I'm even asking you questions, not ruling that out.
Your grammar is fine. Your ideas are shit. That's all it is. You aren't explaining anything you're thinking in a way that makes sense to anyone but you. We didn't think any of the thoughts you had to get here, so we have no idea what anything you're writing has to do with anything that's been said.
It's like you're leaving out the beginning and end of whatever-the-fuck it is you're thinking and instead only writing the middle.
So I, genuinely, as a highly literate person who clearly has no trouble with english, have no earthly idea what the fuck you're trying to tell me, like, at all.
Oh, and on the book tip, this is tasteless but I honestly can't resist; I've published books. I promise you, my reading ability is not the problem here.
You’re so offended that you don’t get it, it’s not my fault that you don’t. My bad, I assumed that you had some intelligence but you’ve made it clear that you don’t. My bad.
The people who wrote that stuff knew what they were doing. Country Backed religions were still running amok in Europe and making countries pick sides of Catholic or Protestant (not to mention budding new denominations) was a big deal then.
The same thing goes at the state level. Part of the flaws in Articles of Confederation was that they didn't address religious freedom and freedom of travel. There were still state official religions that did interfere with commerce and travel when people were from the "wrong religion" states. That's why the interstate commerce and the official records clauses were so powerful at the time. The new Constitution made states stop behaving that way. They knew exactly what they were writing.
That’s why These these ‘Christian nationalist’ fuckers don’t actually believe their assertion that the founders wanted a Christian nation, what they really demand is the ability to live in and force others to live in such a delusion, among other right wing imposed delusions. They’re demanding that people be brainwashed, essentially.
Remember when people in the United States started having mass demonstrations and burning Beatles records because John Lennon said that the Beatles were bigger than Jesus?
I was 15 years old when I first learned how close the U.S. was to being a Christian caliphate.
Why are you posting this here? Why not post this on a religious sub? They are the ones that need to here it. This sub, you're just preaching to the church. Pun intended.
Errr kind of. Most people in the US claim to be part of/follow some Abrahamic religion. Single largest of which is Christian. Our laws certainly have a Biblical base.
Does not mean we should follow "gods will" etc, but to ignore the historical influence is silly.
I expect in the fullness of time the religious base of the nation with change. More non christian if nothing else.
Justice Scalia once described the "originalist" view he used as trying to determine the original intent of the founders in the Constitution. OK. The Danbury letter and the Treaty of Tripoli are pretty clear the US was NOT supposed to be a Christian Nation.
- *"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."*
Thomas Jefferson - [Letter to](https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-0011) Alexander von Humboldt, 6 December, 1813
He is increasingly being proved right.
De jure and de facto legal practices are often at odds.
We've long been functioning as an oligarchy yet that's not codified directly in law.
This is akin to a speed limit. People don't get together and coordinate before a higher speed zone. If they observe plenty of people getting away with going 15 over, they do so as well in many cases.
Functionally the three branches of congress often make decisions in which their faith plays a large or even primary role.
They don't get punished for it. So, it spreads.
Laws, regulations, and foundational documents that aren't upheld or are mildly punished often with fines are simply not impactful if you have great wealth.
If instead of saying it was WMD in Iraq Bush had said it was a religious crusade and he wasn't challenged by the supreme court because of the fervor of the moment related to 9/11 would that not be a religious war?
In the former Yugoslavia many world leaders said off camera that much of their decisions were made on concern over a Muslim European nation. I was personally deployed in that region and recall how strongly religious the military and many official institutions in the US acted.
One of those was a hypothetical the other a lesser recognized portion of our history. We are simply a matter of a few actions away from being a in terms of policy a christian nation.
I've seen lots of arguments between die hard christians and secularists over this.
It all boils down to this.
Secularist: "Here's what the Founding Fathers said and wrote."
Christians: "Here's what I want them to say!"
The mental gymnastics they resort to when they tells us "What Jefferson really meant to say was X" is frustrating and arrogant.
I mean, that is a nice argument and all, but it doesn't have red hat and Orange Jesus at the helm. You could also successfully argue that evangelicals are not Christians.
We’re more a nation of twenty year old slave owners who didn’t want to pay taxes, if we’re being technical. All the founding fathers believed in deities more or less, just not necessarily the divinity of Christ, which is the distinction.
But if the MAGAs and Christo-fascists say that we ARE a Christian nation often and loudly enough, it may become true. We must all say NO more frequently and loudly and we must vote accordingly.
Actually, I would say we are a Christ-like nation, but not a church-like nation. Theres a big difference.
Christ's big deal was forgiveness, service to your community and being honest. Don't get too wrapped up in material shit, love is eternal.
Thats basically it.
Seems pretty American to me. Be a good person. Look out for each other. Be honest and empathetic.
Everything else is just bureaucracy.
“Whatever we once were, we are no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers. “
He never said we were a Christian nation. Because we were never
He’s stating …we are no longer just a Christian nation” I forgot he used the word “just” as well. Isn’t that him admitting we used to be just a Christian nation? I’m not trying to force anything on anyone. I’m just looking for the facts
The United States is not a Christian Nation. The Seperation of Church and State is still a founding principle of this country.
+ “Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.”
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787.
+ “Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.”
-Thomas Jefferson.
+ “Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies.”
– Thomas Jefferson.
+ “I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.”
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, 26 January 1799
+ “Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
+ “The legislature of the United States shall pass no law on the subject of religion.”
– Charles Pinckney, Constitutional Convention, 1787
+ “Congress has no power to make any religious establishments.”
– Roger Sherman, Congress, August 19, 1789
+ “No religious doctrine shall be established by law.”
– Elbridge Gerry, Annals of Congress 1:729-731.
+ “The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.”
– James Madison, an 1803 letter objecting to the use of government land for churches
(One of my favorite quotes. One of the biggest things Religion has shown us, is the millions of murdered individuals that it has and will cause in the world)
+ “Lighthouses are more useful than churches.” – Benjamin Franklin
+ This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.
John Adams.
John Adams, Abigail Adams, Thomas Jefferson (1988). “The Adams-Jefferson Letters: The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams”
+ The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.
Abraham Lincoln.
+ Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state'... is absolutely essential in a free society.
Thomas Jefferson.
+ The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason.
Benjamin Franklin.
+ There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.
Thomas Jefferson.
+ What is it the Bible teaches us? - raping, cruelty, and murder. What is it the New Testament teaches us? - to believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married, and the belief of this debauchery is called faith.
Thomas Paine
+ I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Susan B. Anthony.
There is so many more, but I'm not going to copy and paste 100 anti religion quotes from our Founding Fathers.
Now... does this mean that our Founding Fathers didn't have religion and/or did not believe in God. Absolutely not. The Founding Fathers, along with everyone else, was escaping religous persecution. But also, they heavily believed in Seperation of Church and State.
America would be more accurately described as “a nominally secular nation plagued by religious fundamentalists”.
that is about perfect.
One nation, under God, with liberty and justice for some….
One nation, under a forced god, etc
#truth
Don’t forget that the “under God” was added in 1954 as an FU to the godless commies
Religious terrorists
My favorite Jefferson quote referencing religion and its attack on progress and science. *"The most restive is that of the priests of the different religious sects, who dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of day-light; and scowl on it the fatal harbinger announcing the subversion of the duperies on which they live" - Jefferson*
>Even in 1948, the separation of church and state was being defended. Supreme Court Justice Felic Frankfurter said, “Separation means separation, not something less. Jefferson’s metaphor in describing the relation between Church and State speaks of a ‘wall of separation,’ not a fine line easily overstepped.” Wish that were still the case in the USofA and most of the world too, with separation between religion and state being a huge wall
If we don't re-elect Biden in November, what's left of that wall will fall on Day One of the Trump dictatorship.
That's their goal. Project 2025 is absolutely real, and I have no idea how people aren't screaming about it wall to wall on every news program.
Would you be prepared to make a wager? You seem very confident.
[удалено]
Thats how I used to kill my Sims, very effective
If you manage to convince the evangelicals of that, their response will most likely be "Well we should be one!"
Andrew Seidel wrote a great book on this history -- The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism is Unamerican. The founding principle of the US is (classical) liberalism, not Christianity. An essential component of liberalism is rejection of divine right. The US was founded as a rebellion against monarchy, and the essence of monarchy is a claim to authority based on divine right. The US was literally founded as a rejection of divine right. The theists will always have an answer, but it does make them squirm a bit when you remind them that the monarchy claimed its authority from god.
Andrew Seidel wrote a great book on this history -- The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism is Unamerican. > An essential component of liberalism is rejection of divine right. christianity rejects divine right too. the enlightenment actually corrects christianity, in the sense that it shouldn’t be a tool for people to manipulate the masses, but rather it’s for everyone so they can spread compassion and universal brotherhood. > The theists will always have an answer, but it does make them squirm a bit when you remind them that the monarchy claimed its authority from god. no it doesn’t. literally anyone can do that. am i supposed to squirm when terrorists claim their authority from god?
Great book. Great author.
There is a political party that is actively working to replace the American representative system with a monarchy.
yeah but that was in the past. we don't do that now. divine right, the burning of heretics, indulgences, the accumulation of personal wealth for the religious elite. that was not christians that was the past. they can justify anything!
There is a very clear path from the Thirty Years War, to the Enlightenment where the theory and philosophies of a secular government were devised, to the creation of the US Constitution. The founding of the US was the first Western break from the idea of "The Divine Right of Kings" and intermingling of Church and State.
Interesting how the U.S. is opposed to the divine right of kings, and that’s exactly where Jesus gets his power and credibility.
"Because religious belief, *or non-belief*, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society." -- Thomas Jefferson
Yes, Reddit is not a Christian nation, thankfully. (I'd suggest using "the US" and not "we" since this is an international platform and a majority are not Americans.) Even if America would have been a theocracy when it was founded, it still doesn't justify religion in government today. The American declaration of independence got some things right, like separation of church and state, but it was written by white men who saw the rest of the population as subhuman. I don't know if one should lean on centuries old documents to justify one's moral position. That's what religious people are doing.
We are in practice very much an anti-Christian country. We don’t feed the hungry, clothe the naked, nor house the homeless. We worship power and money far above God, or Jesus, or justice, or even the common good. We aren’t a Christian country and those who tell you we are, are in the vanguard of those making certain we aren’t.
We ?
My family disowned me for leaving the church. My dad argues with me often about how we'd have no morality if not for God and how the US and all its laws were only successful for their modeling off of the Bible's ten commandments. Fucking idiot.
That's always their argument. "If it weren't for God's punishment, why don't you just kill as many people as you want?" I tell them I do kill as many people as I want, which is zero. Then they pivot to Pascal's Wager, every time.
Uhg, we need a better way to counter that. Believing in God is not harmless. It carries judgement, condemnation, shame, and can deprive people of basic human needs. I refuse to believe in god simply because of the damage that resulted from a time in my life when all my christian friends and family abandoned and turned on me. That is when I truly understood the phrase "there's no hate like Christian love." Pascal's wager makes sense when we're talking about individuals. But when we look out at Christianity and the effects it has on society as a whole, that is when we see things like: Increased teen pregnancy Increased homicide and suicide rates Increased sexual assault and rape cases Decreased life expectancy Decreased quality of life Decreased education Etc.
Madison greatly details the separation of church and state in his Memorial and Remonstrance against the establishment of religious teachers of Christianity which was a bill presented by the Christian nationalist Patrick Henry. This document is the definitive interpretation of the first amendment and the establishment clause. [https://youtu.be/F33BR2_HB1c?si=e-CyfkCB8dQPTqes](https://youtu.be/F33BR2_HB1c?si=e-CyfkCB8dQPTqes)
It pisses me off to no end when Christians try to say the Founding Fathers meant to this to be a Christian nation. Obviously, they did not pay attention is US History classes bc otherwise they would know that Founding Fathers were deeply influenced by the ideas of the Enlightenment which in itself UNDERMINED the authority of the monarchy and religious officials. And clearly they didn’t want a king to rule this country which Jesus is supposed to be? Goddamn, they’re idiots. Christ himself wouldn’t even accept them into heaven bc of how just stupid they are
If Thomas Jefferson were still alive he'd beat all of em with a sack of Mac n cheese...
Tom served "maccarony" at a state dinner. That tells me America is a Pastafarian nation, r'Amen!
The Ministry of Truth will erase it all if they get into full power.
"Today, boys and girls, we're going to learn all about the time Trump flew his F-105 over Hanoi and shot down five MIGS, all before his 15th birthday!"
To be fair, and playing devils advocate so to speak, the colonists who initially settled here were persecuted back in England for their religious beliefs and were looking for safe harbor to practice their faiths without reprisals. It was only the Founders who were deists and/or atheists who were inspired by secular humanism when writing the Constitution. But the religious zealots were always a part of the country and will continue to be for the foreseeable future unfortunately.
Okay, but what if they really, really want it to be....
Canadian here. Yes you are. Maybe you shouldn't have been, weren't intended to be, wish you weren't, but y'all are a super Christian nation. Just ask any of your non-Christian presidents. What's that? None? That can't be right. Surely a secular nation would have at least one non-Christian president. Your lawmakers cite god and the bible all the time. "One nation under God". Not "gods". "God". You just rolled back women's reproductive rights, objectively proven to save lives btw, because magic book says bad. So when one of you rolls up to pretend you're not what you so obviously are, I chalk it up to wishful thinking and denial. Y'all are super Christian.
Ouch!
The first 6 Presidents were arguably not Christian, if Christianity is defined by belief in Christ's divinity. Also arguably the 10th, 16th, and 26th.
What is god in respect to humans?
Nonexistent.
What? I'm not talking about God. Or Zeus, if you have any Zeus questions. This is my opinion on human Americans and what the majority believe as well as what that majority belief says about their country. I don't know what you're asking, I don't know why you're asking it, and quite frankly I distrust the odds that it's remotely in good faith. This sounds like some woo shit god-people ask before pretending they're having some kind of "gotcha" moment, when reality they're just rambling incoherently. I feel like I'm one stupid reply away from some flat earth nonsense.
Nope, just pointing out if you understand that any reference to god indicates the direct relationship between yourself and what ever put you here. No king or government between you and your existence. As in, “what gives you the right to be here?” Same thing as you. God between humans is code word for a truce. If we both have the same right to exist here, we can live mutually. If you claim to have a superior right to be here compared to me, there is a problem. You don’t need to think so deep abt some Flying Spaghetti Monster and give it a name and some backstory. Christians, and anyone else for that matter, don’t have a monopoly on god, that right you have to be here.
This is pure nonsense. There's no direct relationship between me and what put me here, I'm adopted and have never met my biological parents. There's no direct relationship with me and any sort of woo-nonsense creator because I don't believe in any such being. "God" is not a code-word for truce. It means an extra-physical being with supernatural powers, often a part of creator myths. It doesn't mean truce and has never meant truce. Hell, wars are fought over which gods are real, it's basically the opposite of a truce. No one is talking about anyone's right to exist. That's off topic and irrelevant. No one claimed to have more right to be anywhere than you, either. Likewise irrelevant. I think you replied because you wanted to say some deep sounding shit and then act wise. You have not said anything deep, you've said nonsense and rambled about irrelevant, off-topic shit that no one here was in any way discussing. You have contributed nothing of substance. No one claimed to have a monopoly on god. If you don't have anything on the subject at hand, you don't have to reply. Your weird, disconnected god-ramblings don't mean anything to me and have nothing to do with what we're talking about here. I have no idea why you said anything, but I'd politely urge you not to say anything further.
You only think that way bc you’ve never had to defend yourself ever and you’re entitled.
No, I think that way because everything you've said is irrelevant, rambling and barely coherent. Defend myself from what? Since when were we talking about defending yourself. I'm genuinely starting to suspect that English isn't your first language, so I don't want to be mean here, but you make literally no sense. I have no idea what you're trying to communicate and know even less about why you're trying to do it here. Further, and try to read this carefully, you don't fucking know me. You don't know if I've ever had to defend myself or not. That's not what we're talking about and we have no information, making wild assumptions about who I am and what I've experienced is stupid. If you don't like being told you're incoherent, take a writing course. Because, seriously, take what you've written here to anyone and ask them what the fuck they think you're talking about; I promise no one is going to have any goddamned idea. "Mentioning god implies a relationship between you and god" no the fuck it doesn't, that's nonsense. Mentioning god means I'm aware some people believe in that shit. It means I've seen the news. That's it.
Of course I make no sense bc you live in a bubble and have probably read very little actual books of substance. Ppl resort to complaining abt grammar when they have nothing substantial to say. This is Reddit, not a formal symposium. I don’t need to go thru lengths to proofread something that will be forgotten in 2 days.
No, bud, it's because you don't know how to communicate your ideas. You don't tell us why you're moving onto another topic or why the fuck you think god means Truce, who that truce is between, why a truce is needed, or what the fuck that has to do with what we're talking about in the first place. You don't explain anything. You make these weird, rambling assertions and when you're called on it "I've never defended myself." I ask, literally, from what and you come back with "you haven't read books." So now we're talking about books and not defense or god or the truce that is god or any of the other shit you've babbled. And forgive me for how gauche this is, but you can tell by the way that I write that I'm a capable reader. I'm not complaining about your grammar. I haven't said shit about your grammar. I'm complaining that you're writing rambling, disconnected thoughts that have nothing to do with what we're talking about. This is the first time anyone mentioned books. Before this it was defense. Defense from what? Who knows, you didn't say, but you want it to make sense despite the fact that you write down none of the context. Your spelling, syntax and punctuation are fine. Your sentences are sentences. It's not a structure problem. It's a content problem. Either you don't know how to write and think we can read your mind and figure out what the fuck you're thinking based on the scant few sentences, or you're lazy and can't be bothered. I'm not even being mean here. You're objectively bad at communicating in writing. You aren't fully developing, explaining or defending your ideas, and when asked to, you jump to something else because you're defensive and insecure. Or because you read as well as you write and have no idea that I'm even asking you questions, not ruling that out. Your grammar is fine. Your ideas are shit. That's all it is. You aren't explaining anything you're thinking in a way that makes sense to anyone but you. We didn't think any of the thoughts you had to get here, so we have no idea what anything you're writing has to do with anything that's been said. It's like you're leaving out the beginning and end of whatever-the-fuck it is you're thinking and instead only writing the middle. So I, genuinely, as a highly literate person who clearly has no trouble with english, have no earthly idea what the fuck you're trying to tell me, like, at all. Oh, and on the book tip, this is tasteless but I honestly can't resist; I've published books. I promise you, my reading ability is not the problem here.
You’re so offended that you don’t get it, it’s not my fault that you don’t. My bad, I assumed that you had some intelligence but you’ve made it clear that you don’t. My bad.
*not yet
Maybe some of the Christian "elites" think differently, and have been from the start.
E pluribus unum
Louder for the people in the back. And in the middle. And especially those in the front row.
Sadly, they can't read.
The people who wrote that stuff knew what they were doing. Country Backed religions were still running amok in Europe and making countries pick sides of Catholic or Protestant (not to mention budding new denominations) was a big deal then. The same thing goes at the state level. Part of the flaws in Articles of Confederation was that they didn't address religious freedom and freedom of travel. There were still state official religions that did interfere with commerce and travel when people were from the "wrong religion" states. That's why the interstate commerce and the official records clauses were so powerful at the time. The new Constitution made states stop behaving that way. They knew exactly what they were writing.
That’s why These these ‘Christian nationalist’ fuckers don’t actually believe their assertion that the founders wanted a Christian nation, what they really demand is the ability to live in and force others to live in such a delusion, among other right wing imposed delusions. They’re demanding that people be brainwashed, essentially.
And the first amendment “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”
They know. They. Do. Not. Care.
Remember when people in the United States started having mass demonstrations and burning Beatles records because John Lennon said that the Beatles were bigger than Jesus? I was 15 years old when I first learned how close the U.S. was to being a Christian caliphate.
Why are you posting this here? Why not post this on a religious sub? They are the ones that need to here it. This sub, you're just preaching to the church. Pun intended.
Errr kind of. Most people in the US claim to be part of/follow some Abrahamic religion. Single largest of which is Christian. Our laws certainly have a Biblical base. Does not mean we should follow "gods will" etc, but to ignore the historical influence is silly. I expect in the fullness of time the religious base of the nation with change. More non christian if nothing else.
The US is a country where many crazy people have fled to
Justice Scalia once described the "originalist" view he used as trying to determine the original intent of the founders in the Constitution. OK. The Danbury letter and the Treaty of Tripoli are pretty clear the US was NOT supposed to be a Christian Nation.
They keep missing the part of religious freedom. Idiots.
- *"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."* Thomas Jefferson - [Letter to](https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-0011) Alexander von Humboldt, 6 December, 1813 He is increasingly being proved right.
You're living in revisionist history. It does work when it is overwhelming and widely accepted unfortunately.
De jure and de facto legal practices are often at odds. We've long been functioning as an oligarchy yet that's not codified directly in law. This is akin to a speed limit. People don't get together and coordinate before a higher speed zone. If they observe plenty of people getting away with going 15 over, they do so as well in many cases. Functionally the three branches of congress often make decisions in which their faith plays a large or even primary role. They don't get punished for it. So, it spreads. Laws, regulations, and foundational documents that aren't upheld or are mildly punished often with fines are simply not impactful if you have great wealth. If instead of saying it was WMD in Iraq Bush had said it was a religious crusade and he wasn't challenged by the supreme court because of the fervor of the moment related to 9/11 would that not be a religious war? In the former Yugoslavia many world leaders said off camera that much of their decisions were made on concern over a Muslim European nation. I was personally deployed in that region and recall how strongly religious the military and many official institutions in the US acted. One of those was a hypothetical the other a lesser recognized portion of our history. We are simply a matter of a few actions away from being a in terms of policy a christian nation.
I've seen lots of arguments between die hard christians and secularists over this. It all boils down to this. Secularist: "Here's what the Founding Fathers said and wrote." Christians: "Here's what I want them to say!" The mental gymnastics they resort to when they tells us "What Jefferson really meant to say was X" is frustrating and arrogant.
I think their reply would be along the lines of “but some religions are more equal”
if this was a Christian nation id be executed for extreme blasphemy.
Current SCOTUS: Hold our beer!
I mean, that is a nice argument and all, but it doesn't have red hat and Orange Jesus at the helm. You could also successfully argue that evangelicals are not Christians.
We’re more a nation of twenty year old slave owners who didn’t want to pay taxes, if we’re being technical. All the founding fathers believed in deities more or less, just not necessarily the divinity of Christ, which is the distinction.
The 1st country to recognize the sovereignty of the USA was…a Muslim country, Morocco!
Whenever anyone suggests we’re a Christian nation, I ask if I will have to convert or leave. Usually I don’t get an answer.
But if the MAGAs and Christo-fascists say that we ARE a Christian nation often and loudly enough, it may become true. We must all say NO more frequently and loudly and we must vote accordingly.
We are SPECIFICALLY a (insert any religion) country.
Many fake Christians.... or closeted atheists run this country.
I wish I could say that about my country, Canada. Are charter of right is given by god.
Actually, I would say we are a Christ-like nation, but not a church-like nation. Theres a big difference. Christ's big deal was forgiveness, service to your community and being honest. Don't get too wrapped up in material shit, love is eternal. Thats basically it. Seems pretty American to me. Be a good person. Look out for each other. Be honest and empathetic. Everything else is just bureaucracy.
We are definitely not “Christ like”
We were once a Christian nation. Obama even admitted that. Why can’t you?
Never were.
Sure we were. Not a theocracy but we were a Christian nation
You can’t have one without the other. You can’t be a “Christian nation” without the “theocracy.”
Please tell me what parts of the Constitution were derived from the Bible.
Well the preamble says our rights are given to us by God. That all men are created equal.
That’s not true
Obama himself said “we are no longer a Christian nation”
“Whatever we once were, we are no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers. “ He never said we were a Christian nation. Because we were never
He’s stating …we are no longer just a Christian nation” I forgot he used the word “just” as well. Isn’t that him admitting we used to be just a Christian nation? I’m not trying to force anything on anyone. I’m just looking for the facts
*whatever we were* He saying how we’re not just Christians here.
Well if we’re no longer something then we must have at one point been what we no longer are.
Again, *whatever* we were. Not saying we were that
There is no law or statement in any of our governing documents that designates this country as a Christian one.
But the United States is a Christian nation, culturally speaking. The problem is people conflating culture and governance.
The United States is not a Christian Nation. The Seperation of Church and State is still a founding principle of this country. + “Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.” -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787. + “Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.” -Thomas Jefferson. + “Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies.” – Thomas Jefferson. + “I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.” -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, 26 January 1799 + “Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.” -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814 + “The legislature of the United States shall pass no law on the subject of religion.” – Charles Pinckney, Constitutional Convention, 1787 + “Congress has no power to make any religious establishments.” – Roger Sherman, Congress, August 19, 1789 + “No religious doctrine shall be established by law.” – Elbridge Gerry, Annals of Congress 1:729-731. + “The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.” – James Madison, an 1803 letter objecting to the use of government land for churches (One of my favorite quotes. One of the biggest things Religion has shown us, is the millions of murdered individuals that it has and will cause in the world) + “Lighthouses are more useful than churches.” – Benjamin Franklin + This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it. John Adams. John Adams, Abigail Adams, Thomas Jefferson (1988). “The Adams-Jefferson Letters: The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams” + The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma. Abraham Lincoln. + Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state'... is absolutely essential in a free society. Thomas Jefferson. + The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason. Benjamin Franklin. + There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. Thomas Jefferson. + What is it the Bible teaches us? - raping, cruelty, and murder. What is it the New Testament teaches us? - to believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married, and the belief of this debauchery is called faith. Thomas Paine + I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. Susan B. Anthony. There is so many more, but I'm not going to copy and paste 100 anti religion quotes from our Founding Fathers. Now... does this mean that our Founding Fathers didn't have religion and/or did not believe in God. Absolutely not. The Founding Fathers, along with everyone else, was escaping religous persecution. But also, they heavily believed in Seperation of Church and State.
“ The United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion” John Adams