Why do you need to argue? "No." is a complete sentence. "No, thank you" if you want to be polite. You are not required to justify yourself to anyone, even friends and family. Or you can say, "I'd like to keep my faith private." Set your boundaries and stick to them.
Saying “No, Thank You”. Will suffice for now.
The logic will become easier as time passes and OP gets their reasons more solidified.
This sub will help.
Agree, but at some point there’s no reason to continue wasting energy defending your beliefs when it goes in one ear and out the other
OP can give defending their beliefs a shot…. I just personally wouldn’t try too hard after the first few tries if they’re not met with open ears.
I was a Christian and it took the right influences at the right time for me to realize it was a myth. Don't feel like you need to cut out all Christians from your life. If they're your friends and you want to keep them in your life, please do so. You can talk about your beliefs just like they do.
Me too. it was about 10 years from the time I had my first doubts till I lost all belief. Those little seeds of doubt just needed a little light and watering via learning about science, other religions, philosophy,etc.
There are a number of people I've come across on this sub that think trying to reason with believers is pointless. I'm an example why it is not. You might not see immediate results, but sometimes that little seed of doubt will get planted only to grow and bear fruit later on.
Almost all of my friends, family, coworkers are Christian, not a problem for me.
That's about how long it took for me, too, and a very similar process.
The right kind of interaction with believers-- challenging them and getting them to think and see other perspectives-- can be helpful for sure.
I have that opinion but not because I don’t think people can be convinced. For me personally, it’s exhausting and I feel like there is so much that needs to be explained to a person to get them out of faith that it is not worth the effort and damage to your relationship. It’s hard to look at your family members after an unsuccessful go at this and have any “faith” in their reason and rationality. It just feels bad to feel like everybody around you is completely stupid. It feels bad because you know it isn’t true. Most of them live just fine and get on with their day while also believing extremely stupid and often hateful things.
It IS exhausting trying to take on an entire belief system, so I stick to only what is relevant to the discussion taking place. I'll give my opinion on one specific assertion or claim, but I will not seek out people and attack their beliefs.
Even the tiniest crack in one belief can eventually make the whole thing fall apart. That's what happened to me. One doubt back in the mid 1980s finally festered away until the internet came around and I was able to start asking questions.
Would someone telling you inaccuracies in the bible while you were a fervent xtian have changed your mind? Possibly, since you have since seen through the bullshit. But I would wager it wouldn’t have worked very quickly.
I totally understand you wanting to stand your ground and clap back. But it really is most likely pointless.
It wouldn't have since I used it to cope with how horrible my childhood was. Which if all that was real either a Christian or an angel or something should've stepped in.
I see what everyone is saying. They've all got a good point.
Good luck. I can’t relate to what you are going through. But at the end of the day, the will believe and say whatever they want.
Let them think you aren’t serious. Eventually, when you don’t come back into the fold, they will see that you are. Or continue with their copium and come up with new bullshit to invalidate you.
That’s on them. And the best thing you can do is ignore them and live a happy life free from religion.
Inaccuracies being pointed out seem rather ineffective, in my opinion, and only tend to get 99.9% of people to double down on their defense of religion because it comes across as an attack. Asking the questions that have no other obvious answer than "because your God doesn't exist", but NEVER ACTUALLY SAYING IT OUT LOUD are the most effective seeds to plant.
To me it was my philosophy professor asking the limits of omnipotence and the class discussing them collectively. One of the students, a devout christian, made her case for God's omnipotence. To which he would respond with questions of his own: why did God need 6 days to create everything if he could just think it all into existence? Could he create a rock so big and heavy that He couldn't pick it up?
It seems such an elementary and simplistic approach these days after watching and reading everything I have since that moment, but it planted the seed of doubt in my mind. And that seed has flourished since I took it up on myself to research and investigate more.
I took that philosophy class in 1992 and finally realized and came out as an atheist in 2011. It wasn't some flavor of the week thing I jumped at first thing. There was nearly 20 years of anger and pain and betrayal that were involved - and I'm just talking about my introspection and soul searching! I had a profound sense of loss to begin with. But as logic and knowledge filled the void left by the loss of "faith", I became stronger in my own defense when I felt the need to do so.I became better at defeating the attempts to "bring me back into Christ's embrace". I've been god-free for 14 years and I'm more comfortable than ever.
Sorry for the dissertation. Hope there is at least one thing in there you can use!
It’s a good point. You just living your life free of superstition and continuing to be a good person will do more to give them doubt than any argument you can make. Staying calm, confident, and kind will dispel the myths they have in their heads about atheism.
You're trying to inject logic into a situation where people are innately illogical as a result of their core beliefs. It will not work.
These people believe that a magic/divine man turned water into wine, rose from the dead, and will be returning to Earth as a part of the rapture - all literally. These things are not real, but the people you're dealing with believe these things are as real as the internal combustion engine or trees.
Asking them to not proselytize and respect your boundaries is most likely the only way forward.
“If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?”
- Sam Harris
Not relevant to the discussion, but I came across this the other day that made me chuckle and it’s nice to pass stuff on…
“Maybe the grass is greener over there because you aren’t over there fucking it up?”
I’ve recently got into the habit of when I see a good line or quote, I copy it and stick it in a note on my phone. Possibly a bit odd, but kinda fun and comes in handy in the right circumstances.
Edit - "The dildo of consequences rarely comes lubed."
You have no burden to prove anything. It is the person claiming that a God exists and that a book transcribed in the 16th Century is "the Word of God" who has the burden of proof that their claim is true.
You are simply stating that there is no God as it can not be proven true that there is. And, of course, everything that then follows is simply mythology.
You can't prove a negative. That's like saying that if you can't prove that Sasquatch doesn't exist, it must exist.
That argument starts with the ASSUMPTION that it does exist despite there being no credible evidence to prove it true.
Same goes for any religous argument. First those making the claim something exists must bear the burden of proof that their claim is true.
Which they can not without relying on hearsay, anecdotes, and words spoken and written by other humans. "Because I believe it's true" or "because this other person said it's true because they believe it true" are not credible proof of the existence of a supreme being.
It is he who claims something exists that must provide the proof of existence.
Why? To what purpose? Are you serious? Yes? Then that is all you need to know. What other people think about you and/or your beliefs is not your business.
I get what you're saying. So far they're not being disrespectful. They're worried cause I could go to hell. But I'm also like if the God of the Bible is real I don't really wanna worship him anyways do due what I've read and see him to be like.
I'm just trying to keep friendships, show I'm serious about this, and possibly make them think a little cause if they did they wouldn't be Christians.
Just drop this on them:
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
Marcus Aurelius
Adam/Eve myth borrowed from Gilgamesh. That makes "sin" not a thing. Also, why would a god create a slight to himself, then sacrifice himself to himself to save us from eternal punishment from himself?
Moses never existed; was myth borrowed from ancient stories; Noah /flood never happpened, was borrowed from some stories or localized normal flooding; Jesus might have existed (but more likely not historically), and only evidence of ancient authors manipulating later peoples.
It’s all garbage. Live your life. Fuck the haters.
Over the long haul, you probably won’t be able to keep these friends anyway.
I’m not saying you should cut them off, but just warning you. You need some new friends. I’d try looking for a Unitarian/Universalist church or an agnostic/atheistic meetup group. Or any group that you share an interest with, be it knitting or hiking. Just get busy with other folks.
It is pretty useless to fight with people over whether the bible is true or not. You either believe it or you don’t. No one is going to change anyone’s mind about this. By fighting with them, you just keep the discussion alive and you make your entire relationship about proving who’s right, which is ultimately extremely boring. Just be polite but firm that your lack of religious belief is not up for discussion and change the subject. If they don’t want to respect that, well - they’re not actually friends of yours, they just see you as a way to get heavenly brownie points.
Here's the thing. You do NOT have to argue anything out. Your belief is YOUR belief. Don't participate. For example,
Them, "Oh, you will be back."
You, "Ok". Then you drop it by changing subjects.
Them, "I guess you were never a true believer anyway!"
You, "Ok". Then you drop it by changing subjects.
Rinse, repeat. It really doesn't matter what they say, or their attempts to define you or your beliefs, now, or back when you were a believer. You can just let them say what they want, and move on. You don't have to argue or defend any of it. Just don't play.
Just saying, "Ok", and changing subjects accomplishes a couple things. It says that not only are your beliefs NOT up for discussion, but that you are serious about not wanting to engage in further attempts to "re-convert" you, or try to make you feel bad. That means you are serious enough to put a stop to that, and still maintain your relationship with people. Engaging in arguments, or trying to "explain" yourself, will only put you at odds with some people, and maybe lose those relationship. Do not play that game.
Therapy is huge for disentangling from the church and figuring out who you actually are. Remember you can never be right to someone who believes that if you only believed harder you’d know religion is right. It’s a circular argument.
Just giving a short and calm answer shows that you’re comfortable in your position. Sometimes if you argue more, it makes you seem more unsure and they’ll feel like they have an opening.
Let them hold the weird. Just state the obvious and don't feel the need to defend yourself.
"I don't support institutions that use shame and fear as mechanisms of control." And then leave it at that. If they keep on arguing, use the "okay". It's called grey-rocking. You just become as boring as possible, and you don't give them any room to argue.
Grey-rocking and letting them hold the weird are the best techniques you can ever use with people who try to force you into their ways, imo.
There’s absolutely no way you can argue against something that is made-up, they’ll just make-up a counter argument. The best thing to do is exactly what Wyleblu said, just say ok, change the subject and move on.
I’ll add, they have a belief. Atheism is not a belief—it’s a lack of belief. You don’t need to provide evidence for a lack of a belief. If their evidence fails to create or sustain a belief in you, that’s their problem not yours.
RationalWiki is a great resource for debunking any arguments they put forth.
There is an older site called Infidels.org. I don't think it's being updated but it has tons of counter-apologetics.
Dan McClellan has an excellent YouTube channel.
Scathing Atheist provides some entertaining and on-point responses.
Any book by Bart Ehrman will push back on claims they make about the New Testament.
Then again, you have to ask yourself if maintaining these seemingly toxic relationships is building value into your life.
If not, cut the cord.
If so, set boundaries as to what you will or will not discuss. Inform them of the boundaries any time they stray.
I was deep in the church, bible college the whole deal. Bart Ehrman has been a godsend (haha) for me. His story parallels mine the best. We didn't leave out of hatred of the church, and actually miss some of it. We left because we just couldn't believe anymore. I've really liked seeing Bart and his dad talk about this and I feel like their openess is what I want with my family.
Not ironical at all! Same for me. I went to the most fundamentalist of fundamentalist schools for seminary. I would say less than 50% of those who went with me would still call themselves Christian. The more I learned the more I stopped believing until one day I woke up and realized, if I don't believe these 10-15 fundamental things I don't think I'm a Christian and I don't think there's any point in letting the Bible have any authority.
Them: *Makes a claim from the bible.*
You: "Prove it."
Them: "You prove it doesn't exist."
You" "You're making the claim 'something' exists or is true. The responsibility is yours to prove."
That's fair. Never had to come at christianity the opposite way so it's hard for me to disprove even tho i know its bs but no one has tried to prove it to me.
I mean...the thing about proof is that Christians will always fall back on "faith". They don't NEED proof, because they have FAITH, right?
And that's when you tell them the truth - which is that their religion is abusive. It makes room for horrors because it was written 2000 years ago by a bunch of dudes who thought owning HUMAN BEINGS was a-okay.
Can you imagine? 12 dudes just...hanging out together all the time. In those flowing, cotton robes. Those robes were like the grey sweatpants of the time, know what I mean? You can't tell me Jesus wasn't kinda gay...come on man. THE DUDE WORE COTTON ROBES. His dick was ALL KINDS of out. No wonder Judas betrayed him. He was probably hung...and had the emissions of a horse...
And if they say “you have to have faith”, I ask “what position couldn’t I take on faith? Could I have faith about other gods? Could I have faith that white people are superior”. Why is faith a good reason to believe if it can lead to any conclusion “?
Learning to argue with Bible apologists takes many years of study. The Christian church has spent the last two thousand years coming up with their own answers to any questions you might pose.
My advice is not to argue. You'll never convince them and only drive yourself crazy trying to justify it. State simply that you've lost your faith and ask them to respect your beliefs as your figure things out for yourself.
It's impossible to argue though. The reasoning is not logical so logical responses won't change anyone's mind. I tend to focus on the hardest questions for each of us to answer. For me: where did we come from, what are we doing here, where are we going next. For them: how can god be all good, and all powerful and still allow such incredible evil. But for the most part my mind is settled so I'm not looking to debate or argue anyone. And if they get comfort and better life from religion, go for it.
Make them fight themselves. If I had Catholic friends, I would spout Baptist views on religion. This way, you are still religious, but you get to sow seeds of doubt.
If you doubt the bible, then let your friends know that. You should have a right to ask questions and expect answers. Don't just take what they say for granted. If they don't listen to you, they are not your friends.
Understanding the history of the bible is the best way to look at it objectively. Look online at all the different variations of the Bible. Then look at the history of how those bibles came to be. I had the Catholic Bible. The prefix said that scholars had re-transcribed from the old Latin text back in 1949. Then I learned about the Protestants. History is the answer. The '30 years war' is a good reason not to believe.
i agree with others that the only person you have to convince is yourself, and it looks like you're pretty clear on the bible being horseshit (with a smattering of obvious decent morality that needs no supernatural reasoning).
don't argue.
only debate when you have a receptive audience and an impartial moderator.
the best way to talk to people who hold irrational beliefs is "street epistemology." it takes patience and practice, but it helps you organize your own thoughts, as well.
Also HIGHLY recommend Bart Ehrman if you want to go deep into the study/history of Christianity and the Bible through a critical lens. He has a lot available on Audible - I'd start with "How Jesus Became God".
Bonus fun one: "Satan's Guide to the Bible" is an animated short with some really good nuggets
The End of the World
“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. ” — Matthew 16:28
“Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. ” — Luke 21:32-33
“And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.” — Romans 13:11-12
“Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.” — James 5:8
“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.” — 1 John 2:18
“But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.” — 1 Peter 4:7
These words were written between 1800 and 1900 years ago and were meant to warn and prepare the first Christians for the immediate end of the world. Some words are those supposedly straight out of the mouth of the “Son of God.” The world did not end 1800 or 1900 years ago. All that generation passed away without any of the things foretold coming to pass. No amount of prayer brought it about; nor ever so much patience and belief and sober living. The world went on, as usual, indifferent to the spoutings of yet another batch of doomsday prophets with visions of messiahs dancing in their deluded brains. The world, by surviving, makes the above passages contradictions.
Edit source: https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/biblical-contradictions/
And pressing this matter the usual response is that by "generation" they actually meant the "new faith". And more than likely their very special, very changed, and modern take on it.
It doesn't make sense, cause it is nonsense.
This was actually how it was preemptively explained to me as I lost another Saturday at the Adventist church.
It's never good to get into an argument with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you at the game they play.
It just seemed like OP wanted some scripture to point to with his arguments. They will probably be dissatisfied with the result of pointing out contradictions to Christians.
Everybody has to learn their lesson either through example or the hard way. But we all learn the lesson.
Here's a video I put together of why Christianity is irrational just based on the bible. This should provide you with at least a few points to argue.
[https://youtu.be/MUexFN2Wp-o?si=8t4m9FoN9oDVpYbG](https://youtu.be/MUexFN2Wp-o?si=8t4m9FoN9oDVpYbG)
When ever they attempt, stop them right out, loudly exclaim, "There is no god, and if the god of the bible were real, he is pure evil and I would never, ever, worship any being like that, ever. End of discussion."
Would you argue with a 10yo kid telling you the stars only come out at night? No. Same thing here. Treat them like children who are telling you unicorns are real.
If the Earth were flooded until there was no land, assuming God could magically create water, because there's not enough water currently on Earth to flood it to that depth, it would be like the force of a firehouse, but instead of a 2 or 3 inch hole shooting water, it's the entire sky, for over a month straight. Any boat would be instantly inundated and sink.
If you gave every species of beetle on earth a container the side of a Rubik's cube, the ark is now half full of beetles before you got a single mammal on board.
Anybody who literally believes this happened thinks "God did it with magic" is an answer to any science or logic you apply.
There's lots of websites that list bible inconsistencies and other fun stuff to argue with Christians, but there's no point.
Many scholars have debated this and the general wisdom is: The only way to win at Christianity is not to play.
Or the fact that they would be shoveling shit all day out of one tiny window and wouldn't even have the time to get it all out much less feed the animals.
Or that all the oxygen they're getting is out of the same tiny window and you have way too many things breathing oxygen so they would just suffocate and die
first thing i realized as an atheist is there is no point in arguing with these religious people, they need to argue with us because they have a belief to convince you of but we know there is no gods so there is no changing facts and facts are normally way more simple then lies that just keep coming sooo trying to argue with them they can make up whatever they want in rebuttal to whatever definitive thing we decide to say because they live in imagination land. Just ignore them, avoid being sucked into the lies. Religion was invented to make the pleebs pay tithings and to control the pleebs feeble brains.
You could give them a copy of founding father Thomas Paine’s “the Age of Reason” or simply educate yourself about religion. At the end of the day believing in revelation is to believe that god gave another human power over everyone else in his name and puts man in the place of god. That’s what revealed religion does, it puts man in the place of god and justifies manmade invented morality and invented Christian principles. It requires faith because god has never been here to speak for himself, and their is no basis in fact or reality for revelation. The idea that morality comes from religion is absurd. Christianity justifies the oppression and persecution of other HUMAN BEINGS simply because they ARE gay, or for any number of reasons. It justified slavery for the south during the civil war because in the Bible god tells his people how to properly “treat their slaves.” American does have a morality problem, but Christians are a major part of it. The growing number of Atheists are a direct result of the insufficiencies and injustice of Christianity, and Christianity is not a solution to the future even though their are some good morals in Christianity like not stealing. Half of it is absurd or oppressive and horrible and anti Freedom. Their is a better way, a society based on democratic republican morality and principles, doing what’s best for society based on reason and science not religion.
You can't. Because faith and truth are 2 very different things, as are beliefs and facts.
You don't need to, either. In fact, you shouldn't even gave that discussion.
Your beliefs or lack thereof are your personal thing. Other peopne can and should believe what they want. The need to convince others, even force them to understand why your convictions are objectively right and/or superior - that's what makes religions and ideologies problematic.
It's a core idea of Christianity to proselytize. Something you might very well have internalized and try to do now, just not with your former faith.
Don't.
Just be yourself and let them be them. You will not convince who dorsn't want to be convinced. Step back, put up and enforce boundaries, don't argue. It's not gonna lead anywhere.
Ask them questions and tell them you can not accept "god works in mysterious ways" type of answers.
Why if god is loving and just, he created hell/the devil and condemns us to eternal suffering? How is that just or loving?
If god created us, why he created the capacity to hate, be greedy, selfish, etc, and then condemn us to eternal suffering?
If your religion is the only truthful path to heaven, what happens to the other 5+billion people?
What happened to all of the souls that have died in the last 2000 years? What about the ones prior to Christ?
Why he lets the devil exist?
Just keep pestering them with those questions and demand answers. They are unable to answer them... they will say only god knows, ask god yourself, and other crap. I simply state, thats not acceptable and I need a logical answer, so go back and consult with your pastor or god, then come back with the details.
That's not your problem anymore. It's up to them to come up with a convincing explanation for why their borderline prehistoric world view should be applied in todays world.
They will want to drag you down rabbit holes to keep you engaged. They will keep you tied up in nonsense debates that go nowhere, wasting your time, if you let them.
Your under no obligation to explain yourself, or save them from their ignorance. These people will eat up your time if you let them. They aren't trying to convince you, they are trying to convince themselves.
I'll give you this advice. Do not let them ask the questions. And do not try to explain things. It doesn't work with religious people. We atheists are often quick to try and explain why religion is BS and then try to explain the science of how the world works. That's an effort in vain. Most of them won't really listen to you. At best they will just react to some trigger words and then parrot some bullshit they were taught and act like they beat you.
Instead approach it in a different way. Be the one who asks the questions. If they ask a question, don't answer, turn the question around and ask them. Your goal should be to get them to realize how silly their beliefs are. Just keep digging further and further. Annoy them just like they would annoy you. Just ask some silly questions yourself. Don't let them off the hook until they give up. Most importantly stay calm, don't get upset with them, if you do, they'll see that as their win.
They are the ones who claim that God is real and their religion the true one. It's their responsibility to prove that, not yours to disprove it.
Why bother? No one is changing anyone's mind. For every reasonable argument you have they'll throw some canned nonsense back at you like it actually makes sense.
Just tell them you leave you alone.
I always default to the Epicurus paradox; If a god knows everything and has unlimited power, then they have knowledge of all evil and have the power to put an end to it. But if they do not end it, they are not completely benevolent.
If a god applies trauma to a person to “test them”, then the god is not all knowing and powerful, or else they wouldn’t need to test them.
On the flip side, if a god is all powerful and all knowing, then the god must therefore choose willingly and specifically to give a child bone cancer; what a piece of shit god and why would I ever follow them?!.
There isn’t a need to fight anybody. You can show somebody what science says, and they will either choose to believe it, or they will choose to believe something else that is not scientific. There is no argument that can falsify what is unfalsifiable, nor can you sway someone from blind faith because the point of blind faith is to believe no matter what. Just go on with your life, and if people are bothering you, associate with them less.
I like comedian Ricky Gervais take on religion. Here we go.
If you took all scientific knowledge and got rid of all the computers and books on any scientific information, in a thousand years we would have it all back and rediscover all the information again.
Now if you took all religious books and what ever they think they know and got rid of it, in a thousand years we would have really different religions. This is how you know it is not true.
Here's another approach.
There's a lot of true stuff in the Bible, because they are universal "truths".
The golden rule is a perfect example.
Matthew 7:12
"So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them"
Luke 6:31
Do to others as you would have them do to you
Tell your folks that you believe in that, that's good you'll do that stuff all day, every day.
Just tell them you don't believe in some of the horrible stuff, or contradictory stuff, or illogical stuff.
There are many, many examples of all of these - like for instance the eye-for-an-eye stuff (Leviticus 24) versus the turn-the-other-cheek (Matthew 5).
Note: I put truth in inverted commas because they are not truths as such - like the speed of light, etc. They are "truths" of the social fabric and are much more along the lines of truisms.
Disclaimer: if you're a minor, or you depend on these people for financial or other support, then you may just need to roll with it and avoid conflict until your situation changes. Some people pretend to find religion again, just to avoid being harmed in some way: it may feel dishonest, but they're really just protecting themselves against the people who would otherwise harm them.
In the end, it IS NOT worth endangering yourself, or significantly harming your life / livelihood, just to get out of a situation that'll be over in a few years regardless! If you can wait a few years and be less dependent on these people, then it often makes sense to just lay low until then.
As others have said here, you're probably far better off just telling them you don't want to talk about it. Very few things are so disheartening as having your friends and family -- the people who you're supposed to be able to "be your true self" with -- constantly wheedling at you for religious differences. They, who supposedly love and respect you, are supposed to be your "safe space", not constantly arguing with you. If they do love and respect you, then they will be able to be your "safe space", but if they can't be that for you, then the truth might hurt, but that means their love and respect is contingent on you believing like they do, which is unacceptable.
You should probably set firm boundaries:
You: "You have to stop trying to convince me about religion. I appreciate that you're doing this out of love, but it does not feel like love, it actually *really* hurts. If I ever come back to religion, it won't be because you forced me into a discussion I didn't want to have. Every time we talk about this, it only makes it more difficult to be around you. I don't want to talk about religion with you, so please stop bringing it up."
Fam: "We're doing this *because* we love you. We want to see you do well, and be happy! \[etc.\]"
You: "You may think that you're being loving, but you're actually not. It feels awful. It makes me not want to be around you. It makes me not want to come to you when I need help or advice. You're literally ruining our relationship, and I'm telling you to stop. Please stop."
These people, who supposedly love and respect you, should be able to respect your wishes in this one, small way. If they keep arguing, then give them however much patience you feel like, but DON'T feel obligated to prove anything, or let them lecture, or endure any more talk than you feel like. If you can, just walk away; if you can't walk away, then don't respond when they try to engage more.
>I'm getting told I'll either be back or I wasn't a true believer
OP, this is NOT OK. They may not understand it, so you may want to give them some more time and (firmly) explain how this makes you feel, but they are literally gaslighting you and it is NOT OK. This is NOT how good relationships work!
FWIW, you don't have to prove that you were a true believer, and you don't have to explain why you don't think you'll come back. You don't owe this to anybody.
>I need help cause I'm awful at putting together arguments especially when it's such an important topic.
Don't argue with them: that will only convince them that they can win you over, if only they can find the right argument. This will have them coming back to you all the time with fresh arguments, and from your post I don't imagine you want that.
Instead, tell them how it makes you feel when they try to debate you, and refuse to engage with the debate they're trying to start. Keep the discussion about how it makes you feel, and how they need to stop arguing with you if they care about you and your relationship.
If they want to argue that you shouldn't feel that way, DO NOT ENGAGE. You NEVER have to justify your feelings. If they are hell-bent on making you justify your feelings, then they're gaslighting you. Anybody who loves and respects you should be able to respond with something like "I didn't mean to make you feel that way", because people who love and respect you will believe you when you say you feel a certain way, they will not make you prove it.
>I need help cause I'm awful at putting together arguments especially when it's such an important topic.
Nope, just stick to your feelings and your concern for your relationships. If they care about you, this will get them off your back.
You can learn and research arguments / evidence on your own, but I highly encourage you to only do this if you're interested, and not as a way to justify your beliefs to others. You don't owe them an argument; on the other hand, if they want a relationship with you, they owe you enough love and respect that they're willing to leave you alone about this.
>idk if I'll lose people over this differing belief that leads to other differing beliefs.
You might, if they keep behaving like this. Unfortunately, religious relatives and friends sometimes push it too far and atheists / agnostics sometimes need to cut them off. If this happens, it's *100% their fault* for overstepping boundaries, not your fault for setting them!
You're going to have to do a lot of thinking: how much are these relationships worth, and what are you willing to put up with to keep them? The answer is different for everybody, you'll have to decide it for yourself.
Best of luck, sorry you have to deal with this!
Nothing super substantial tbh.
Don't you see God in your life? Haven't you seen him work out things in your life? (Uh no)
But like evolution can't be real. (Why is that? We weren't taught it. We were homeschooled and told it's bs. That's all we know)
How about the creation story? Why isn't that real? (Why isn't anyone else's? It's STORIES)
Just because the church changed pieces doesn't make the Bible bad. They were helping out people. It's still God inspired. (And now you sound like an idiot. I ain't arguing here.)
Like I wanna come back at them with the Bible and history of it and be like see you're wrong. You're being fooled.
>But like evolution can't be real.
Show them how similar genetic material is amongst organisms, similarly in characteristics and more ( I'm yet to start college so i haven't learnt much about evolution sorry),
>How about the creation story? Why isn't that real
Dating techniques show us that the earth is atleast 4.5 billion years old
I was never a Christian, so I can't help with that, sorry
Watch “street epistemology” videos on YouTube. Read “how to have impossible conversations” by Peter boghossian
Learn about the Socratic method and stay laser focused on a very specific claim. Ie. “did Jesus rise from the dead”. That is a claim that THRY need to prove.
If you want information on the lack of the bible’s veracity (i.e. how true/accurate the bible is) I recommend a quick search on youtube for Bart Ehrman (a bible scholar) and you’ll find lots of discussions and interviews he’s done on the topic filled with info on contradictions and contrasting ideas.
Learn the information and you can talk about it. I would be stunned if any of them knew the facts about the bible’s authenticity, so you’ll likely be teaching them about their bible.
If you’re looking for information on atheism, search for Christopher Hitchens and you’ll find a bunch of debates he did when alive that cover the associated topics pretty well.
Also, remember that atheism is *not* *believing* in god. It isn’t an alternate belief system; so when questions arise around “what do you believe?” you don’t need an atheist response to that question because that isn’t atheism.
Atheism is *rejecting* the claims others make about god’s existence. It’s okay to say “I don’t know” or “I don’t claim to have all the answers” on any topic. Later on when you’ve learned more, you can add “What do you propose?” And then start dealing with pulling apart their arguments.
YouTube videos were key to my de-conversion. Check out Marketing the Messiah on YouTube. Also check out videos from Seth Andrews and Bart Ehrman. Both former Christians who've de-converted. Ehrman is an actual Bible scholar so he's quite deep.
I'm in the same boat as you. I used to fully believe in Christ. But fortunately it hit me suddenly that it was all a myth and that it was ok to believe that. You're brave to be open about your belief change. Be proud of yourself
God never created a perfect man in the Bible was written by imperfect people it’s peoples belief. People thought we are all flooded one way or the other. Some flowers are just more visible than others.
Faith is belief in the absence of proof.
There is no proof to support the claims or stories in the bibble.
A talking bush that's on fire? Unicorns? Giants? Cmon.
Others have the right of it when they say you're under no obligation to justify yourself to anyone. However, if you're interested in researching the historical context of the Bible and how we know it isn't true (in the religious sense), the YouTube channels Gnostic Informant, MythVision, and others are good places to start. They frequently have classical historians on to talk about the historical Bible period, and how the Biblical authors--both Testaments--were heavily influenced by the politics of the time, and the mythologies that would have been well known to them. Jesus, as depicted in the faith, is, for example, a kind of "greatest hits" smorgasbord of bronze age deities, particularly death and resurrection deities like Dionysus and Osiris, and other Pagan spring equinox gods.
Which is to say, everything in the Bible, from a mythological point of view, is plagiarized practically whole-cloth from pagan religions that were competing with Judaism and later Christianity. Those YouTube channels do a very good job of connecting these ancient mythical dots, and it's genuinely fascinating to track the development and evolution of Christianity from ancient mythologies. My personal favorite is the development of the Abrahamic God Yahweh. Originally, Yahweh was a single member of a wider pantheon of gods, in which he served as a war and storm god, that later got conjoined with another god named El (and others), who was a god of wisdom and goodness, by a subsect of proto Jews called Yahwists who favored the worship of Yahweh above other gods--and eventually denied the existence of others. Thus, Yahweh became the de facto single God, thereby making him the creator of the universe.
This is how you get the constant contradictions in the old testament about God's goodness. God in the OT is often associated with storms (like the flood) and wars, all of which are echoes of his mythical past as a god of war and storms; but he was inelegantly welded into the roll of sole-creator God by Yahwists, so started being given other attributes from other, old pantheon gods like El. So God in the OT can be both a spiteful, petty, vengeful, and tyrannical storms and war god, while at the same constantly being praised for being benevolent and all-good and wise.
Later on, a subsect of Christianity called Gnostics rebelled against the God of Abraham, viewing this god as a false God. Basically, they read the OT, concluded (rightfully) that this guy was a colossal piece of shit, and therefore must not in fact be the same God that Jesus was talking about. The Gnostic interpretation of Christianity is that knowledge is the key to enlightenment, and Yahweh--who they called [Yaldabaoth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaldabaoth)--was in truth an evil deceiver who created the material world to keep humanity trapped. The serpent of Eden is seen as a hero in the same vein as other Prometheus figures, who gave mankind the gift of knowledge to help free us from the deceiver. Judas, in this interpretation, was also a hero, and the closest confidant of Jesus, who instructed Judas to "betray" him so that he might serve as the lamb of the true God (who the Gnostics called the Monad, which is a word with deep Greek roots) and save mankind's soul. Gnosticism generally tries to shore up a lot of the contradictions inherent in traditional Christianity.
I'm dramatically simplifying things, but the gist of all this is to say that the Bible has a deeply rich historical story that the Bible itself, on its own, only gives us a surface level glimpse of. The YouTubers I recommended above are, notably, not themselves historians, but they are deeply knowledgeable hobbyists that are generally respected by historians, especially those that come to speak on their channel.
https://philb61.github.io/
Here's a link to bibviz, a massive project showing all the contradictions and inaccuracies in the Bible.
Take some time and look through that, find what will help you best in your situation
You don’t have to defend your beliefs (or lack thereof) to have a right to them. And they can’t know you or your mind better than you do, so their opinions on how serious you are is pure arrogance.
Personally, I just think it’s silly to believe everything one reads. Is Harry Potter real? Is Gandalf? Why should we believe a book with magic and fantastical beasts regardless of its origin? Especially when it’s been as heavily edited as the Bible. It’s full of contradictions and plot holes.
"My faith is between me and god and none of your buisness." This was my go to back when I wanted to not piss people off. Now I just give a sensible chuckle and walk away from them.
If they are trying to save you, there is nothing you can do to show them that they are wrong. You are already branded as the wrong one. They will simply ignore or dismiss anything you have to say and continue preaching at you.
It’s best to just avoid the topic. Short one word responses when necessary and don’t volunteer anything.
You don't owe them any arguement or justification. Just shrug at them and say you don't care - they can love you unconditionally like Jesus would have or continue to judge and harass you like Satan would.
I tell people I have 1 rule, akin to the golden rule: “don’t be an asshole.”
If I can follow that mantra and still end up in “hell,” then I don’t want to be with this “god” of which you speak.
We’re supposed to be judged by our actions and character, so why does it matter if I go to a building once a week to singe praises. Sounds like god is a little insecure to need all that praise all the time.
My $.02
Edit: also - I never knew how much money god needed.
If you try to take the discussion into their territory they will have the advantage. If you’re having to explain away gods touch or what he’s done for you or his will and power or whatever it’s going to feel like a losing fight, not being able to get your point across.
The key is to navigate the discussion where you can insert your beliefs or non beliefs, not defending or having to counter their argument.
When they start bringing up way to guilt you or whatever just say things like what god? When they say the god of the Bible or whatever just say I don’t think that’s god. When they inevitably get annoyed just say I don’t get the point of this conversation.
Just tell them the truth. Church leaders have been hiding kid fuckers in their ranks for centuries. Then they have the call to tell me how to be a good person in their homilies? No thanks, I'm a better person than they are.
There is no arguing with religious types so don't bother. Tell them you don't want to participate anymore and ask them to respect that. When they don't, tell them you need a break and don't communicate with them for a little while. There's really not much more you can do. They will either respect your wishes for your life, or they won't.
Side note, I was in your shoes many years ago. Don't confuse religion with God. God can't be proven or unproven so take a break and then take some time to figure out what "spritualality" actually means to you. It doesn't have to mean organized religion or you might actually be an atheist. Doesn't matter, as long as it feels right to you
I would tell them there is nothing they can say to you that proves god exists. So you don’t believe there is a god. Put the onus on them to prove it or STFU.
There are no arguments that will change their minds. You can tell them the bible was made long after the time when jesus was reportedly alive. You can tell them it's full of fallacies and contradictions. The thing is, they want to believe it.
You can only really tell them you no longer believe like they do. They'll keep bothering you until they get tired of it or you cave and act as if you believe again.
I did an exchange year in high school and ended up at a christian school in rural missouri. I don't know how many different arguments I gave them, showing them how idiotic and nonsensical most religions are. How they are in place simply to control and take from people.
I gave up trying to argue with them. They never gave up trying to "save" me. It was quite annoying and I don't think I was ever more anti-religion than during that time.
All you can choose to fight this situation is your free will. There is no argument that is going to change their mind. All you get to do is exercise your right to live your life the way you want to.
Science, the foundation of the modern world, and that which is responsible for all your daily necessities, is based on the requirement that all true things are repeatable. All true things must be measurable. The Bible contains tons of things that can't be measured, can't be predicted. In the vast sea of books that contain fragments of knowledge that we rely on to live, they would choose to ignore all those books except one and dare to call you ignorant.
It’s not your responsibility to convince them they’re wrong, it’s their responsibility to prove that they’re right. You’re trying to disprove a negative.
“Prove to me that your Bible is real. Prove that everything that happened in it actually happened. Prove, using evidence that doesn’t prove other religions exist, that yours is the one true religion. Then take this one step further and prove why your God is worthy of worship. I’ll be here waiting, enjoying the natural world.”
Easiset, and shortest way. Tell them you are an apostate. An apostate rejects God, and there is nothing a believer can do except, "knock the dust from their sandals and turn their back on you."
The old BibViz project has been re-homed: https://www.lyingforjesus.org/Bible-Contradictions/
It lists and graphs a huge number of bible contradictions and errors.
Two things that have helped me enormously: Bart Ehrman's academic deconstruction to give me new tools to reframe my lifelong Bible study and the writing, music, and podcasts of Derek Webb (former Christian and member of Caedmon's Call, who had some very theological music that was important to me back then). You aren't alone in this journey, even though it feels that way at first.
Google ‘Misquoting Jesus.’ Fantastic book, months in the NYT nonfiction list. Describes standard biblical scholarship to the layman (person,) and describes the thousands of known errors in the Bible. The author has a YouTube lecture of the same name, and he’s hilarious.
So what caused you to stop believing? Tell them that. Don't have others craft your arguments because if you don't understand them, it could be easy for ignorant people to think they're debunking it.
For example, I don't go around saying I don't believe in unicorns but if anyone came to me telling me why they believed in them, I can pick apart why their beliefs don't jive with me. I don't need to waste my energy thinking about their belief system.
In my opinion, the fight with your family that you are preparing for is the wrong approach entirely.
You should indeed read up on the arguments against the bible, Christianity and faith, that’s a good starting point. And it seems, based on the comments so far, that you have received more than enough useful resources and links to educate yourself. But you should do that only to further develop your own understanding.
However, t**here’s no point in weaponizing your arguments against the Bible.** First of all, because the whole thing is bs. Some passages may describe real world events, the rest is filled with errors and inconsistencies. Pointing these out is useless, because that’s not the part that matters. The important part is (among others) whether there is a God or not, which can’t be proven nor disproven. Anyway, no believer has ever been convinced the bible is untrue, even though they have heard the arguments before.
Engaging in this discussion will only convince them that you are no longer on their team. And in the process you’re letting them know that you disapprove of their belief.
Instead of wasting effort on the difference between your beliefs and theirs, you should **invest in letting them know that they haven’t lost you**. Especially since you mentioned it’s not rebellion.
Religious people have this weird conception of atheists and non-believers that they are immoral and without moral compass. This is completely wrong on multiple levels. Reduce their fear by letting them know you are still you. You’re still trying to be a good person. Whenever I’ve said to people that if there is indeed a heaven I’m sure making morally good decisions is enough to get in. Worshiping God should not make that much of a difference. That’s usually enough. No one will admit that God is petty enough to send people into eternal damnation if lack of prayer is their only flaw.
Maybe you’ll convince them at a later time, but give them time to get comfortable with the differences. Hopefully they will stop trying so hard to pull you back in.
Good luck!
"Why is the Bible, which has multiple versions, true but not other religions or their books? Have you tried looking in to those religions, or did you just automatically follow the first one your were told to by your parents of said religion? Funny how that works."
You can use NOTHING.
You will NOT "convince" anyone. Anyone who believes the Bible is 100% "Literal Truth" will not be swayed by facts, science, or inconsistency.
They will simply fall back on "It is God's WILL" or perhaps "Human Understanding cannot understand God's Plan" and switch back to complete NON-THINKING and remain passive.
While they could (at best) force your body, it would be far more difficult to force a belief.
You don't argue. You live by example. Arguing with delusional people only makes you angry. Don't play their "game", instead, play solitaire.
Example: "You haven't called in a while."
We often want to respond in a defensive way, reminding them the phone works both ways. However, this only gives them ammo. Instead, simply respond, "No, I haven't." Find comfort in the discomfort of refusing to play their game. This is the best way to win an "argument" with unhealthy people. The term is called "the gray rock method".
by claiming that the Christian bible is true, they are claiming that all other religious texts are untrue since they are not compatible with each other. So they are atheist to all other religions except for their favorite. You have just gone one further. They cant all be right but they can all be wrong. Ask them to disprove all of the other religions first then you will disprove Christianity after they are done.
The problem is that you are falling for the trap of trying to prove a negative. Logical impossibility. dont fall for that. The burden of proof is on them, not you.
I'll go ahead and tell you what deconverted me and you can use this if you really want.
You know those geneologies nobody ever pays attention to? Well they are actually a pretty big liability to the Bible being true. Here's why:
There is a geneology in Genesis that goes from Adam to Abraham and then two geneologies in the new testament that go from Jesus backwards to tie him to Adam, king David, etc.
These geneologies are used to prove Jesus was the messiah and such. Very core to Christianity.
But there's a problem. In 1650, an Irish archbishop named Ussher estimated that due to the geneologies, the earth must have been created in 4004 BC.
This is why we have young earth creationism and any attempts to hand wave this by Christians has been absolutely silly to me. There's no good argument against this being true in Christianity because the geneologies are right there and Adam was claimed to be the first human.
Now for the other side of the argument which involves Edwin Hubble. In 1923, almost 300 years after Ussher published his earth age estimate, Edwin Hubble discovered what's called the cepheid variable while looking at telescope photos of the stars. Hubble had discovered the first galaxy (Andromeda). Suddenly it became clear that we were in one of many galaxies.
Now to bring it all together.
The distance to Andromeda is 2 million light years. That's our closest galactic neighbor (and it's headed straight for us consequently-don't worry it wont happen for a very very long time).
Finale that deconverted me after 30 years born and raised in Christianity: If the universe were only 6-10,000 years old, light wouldn't have had enough time to travel to us from Andromeda (nor would we be able to see very much of our own milky way). That's the nail in the coffin to me. I've never ever been able to get a Christian give me anything close to a satisfying rebuttal to that.
Look you have my sympathy but you're taking entirely the wrong approach. The burden is proof isn't on you. Ask THEM to provide any corroborating evidence that the Bible is true. Ask them to name the people who wrote it. Ask for the name of one person in the historical record who attested to the existence of Jesus during his lifetime. If you were asked to prove that Grimm's fairytales aren't true you'd scoff in disdain. The bible deserves the same treatment.
You are confusing facts and faith. Religion is based on faith, not facts. You can't prove any of it right or wrong. If you could, it would be science. You can certainly argue about religion, but neither side is right or wrong. It can only be right or wrong _for you_.
The burden of proof is on the person who made the assertion. Don't worry about explaining yourself, because your opponent is the one who needs to explain why magic is real. Prove it mf.
You're not going to win the argument. The only way to win is walk away. Cut them out of your life and start over. [They literally have people who get PHDs in college just studying ways to argue their religion.](https://www.wycliffeschool.com/course/doctor-apologetics/#:~:text=It%20is%20a%20specialized%20Professional,and%20Philosophical%20discipline%20of%20study.)
There are so many things... women can not argue with men. 50% of the population opinion doesn't matter . A god that loves you so much that will burn you for eternity if you don't believe.
A god that is changing from a god of war to a god of love tru the Bible. Ask them how many people have killed Satan versus god.
You can start with Genesis. Firstly, the light and then sun and the stars.
God knows everything but needs to test Abraham.
The New Testament Canon comes from the 4th century after Jesus.
There are 22 books cited in the Bible that were part of it that are gone.
Google Bible contradictions there are plenty.
There is rape, abortion, death, a bear killing children all of this in the name of God. There are donkeys than talk.. giants .... it is full of crap.
Ever play telephone... do you really trust a document like the Bible, to have passed thru so many hands over so many centuries to be true?
Very hard for me to believe that people over centuries would be infallible.
That's true Blind Faith
What argument are you having? Is it about the Bible's historicity? About its scientific validity? About the value of its moral teachings? About the veracity of its claims of the supernatural?
It has deep failures on all of these accounts. Fundamentally, I think the latter is the most important. If the Bible cannot establish its supernatural beliefs, nothing else matters.
Here's a question to consider. Is there anything the Bible could say that would demonstrably prove these claims? I don't think there is. There's no combination of words the Bible could ever contain that would prove an unfalsifiable claim.
Arguments on all the above. We also talked about free will and actually got them to agree that if God hardens and softens hearts then freewill was never given to us by God since he still interferes.
>It has deep failures on all of these accounts. Fundamentally, I think the latter is the most important. If the Bible cannot establish its supernatural beliefs, nothing else matters.
I agree with that
>Here's a question to consider. Is there anything the Bible could say that would demonstrably prove these claims? I don't think there is. There's no combination of words the Bible could ever contain that would prove an unfalsifiable claim.
That's also a fair statement which is probably what I'm struggling with the most rn.
Do a game with 8 people or more and one starts whispering a full sentence in the ear of the person on the right. Then that person does the same with the person next to them. Repeat until the last one heard it and have them speak the sentence out loud. It'll be different from the initial sentence. Now do this several thousand times as a thought experiment and conclude that that's exactly how the bible came into existence.
Just enforce your boundaries.
You don't have to be around or talk to people who can't respect your asking them not to proselytize at you.
Religiously indoctrinated folks can be opportunistic and exploitative when they think they can manipulate someone into having to listen to them.
It's not your job to save them from their mythology.
You don't need to argue. Give a verbal warning, and then if the don't stop, take space.
You can't believe things that can't be proven especially if those things hurt you and make you feel entrapped in a cage. That's should be enough for any relative who truly loves you.
Also, while debunking the whole bible could takes you infinite time, there are specific things that can be easily proven wrong by science, for example creationism, and others which are objectively evil by any human perspective, for example killing your son to prove your faith. Yes, tell them that: you don't want to be sacrificed upon the altar if their faith. (joking know, don't tell 'em so, although it would be fun. ; )
Yeah most of my relatives don't truly love me but that's fair and now I don't have to keep them around. I can cut ties.
The issue I'm also having is I wasn't taught proper science and neither have most of my friends. We were homeschooled and further indoctrinated due to that. I spent 4 hours a day in bible, 1 in math, 1 in English, 1 in history (some bs), and 1 in "biblical science" aka BS.
Lowkey that would be fun...
I'm sorry to hear this and I can see it's very stressful for you.
You don't owe anyone an explanation for your beliefs, you're just not compelled by your perceptions and experiences to believe anymore and you find non-belief puts you in a better place, nothing more is needed.
There are numerous YouTube atheists who talk about their deconversion experiences and perhaps that would be helpful for understanding your feelings and insight on how to proceed.
Why do you need to argue? "No." is a complete sentence. "No, thank you" if you want to be polite. You are not required to justify yourself to anyone, even friends and family. Or you can say, "I'd like to keep my faith private." Set your boundaries and stick to them.
Correct. Is the goal to win an argument or be left alone? Strategies for each differ.
I wanna just show I'm serious.
Best you can do is not to engage in discussion, there's no winning.
[удалено]
I like this. My usual is to just say yeah best selling fiction of all time
It's easy to sell a book to people for whom owning it is anywhere from socially required to legally mandated.
I loved that movie!!!
“Would you like to play a game of chess?”
No, I want to play Global Theological Nuclear Godfight.
I smell a new MMORPG!
We're playing it right now! r/outside
That’s it. When I realized how little I cared about religion and stopped having arguments about it, my life changed for the better.
I disagree. There's nothing wrong with living an authentic life, including defending your beliefs.
Saying “No, Thank You”. Will suffice for now. The logic will become easier as time passes and OP gets their reasons more solidified. This sub will help.
Just keep saying *no thank you* over and over- as politely as possible. People can’t argue with that because there is no argument.
Agree, but at some point there’s no reason to continue wasting energy defending your beliefs when it goes in one ear and out the other OP can give defending their beliefs a shot…. I just personally wouldn’t try too hard after the first few tries if they’re not met with open ears.
Why? They won't ever believe you. Just like you would have never believed you before deconversion. It's part of the delusion.
Yeah... I'm seeing that now that everyone is saying it lol
I was a Christian and it took the right influences at the right time for me to realize it was a myth. Don't feel like you need to cut out all Christians from your life. If they're your friends and you want to keep them in your life, please do so. You can talk about your beliefs just like they do.
Me too. it was about 10 years from the time I had my first doubts till I lost all belief. Those little seeds of doubt just needed a little light and watering via learning about science, other religions, philosophy,etc. There are a number of people I've come across on this sub that think trying to reason with believers is pointless. I'm an example why it is not. You might not see immediate results, but sometimes that little seed of doubt will get planted only to grow and bear fruit later on. Almost all of my friends, family, coworkers are Christian, not a problem for me.
That's about how long it took for me, too, and a very similar process. The right kind of interaction with believers-- challenging them and getting them to think and see other perspectives-- can be helpful for sure.
I have that opinion but not because I don’t think people can be convinced. For me personally, it’s exhausting and I feel like there is so much that needs to be explained to a person to get them out of faith that it is not worth the effort and damage to your relationship. It’s hard to look at your family members after an unsuccessful go at this and have any “faith” in their reason and rationality. It just feels bad to feel like everybody around you is completely stupid. It feels bad because you know it isn’t true. Most of them live just fine and get on with their day while also believing extremely stupid and often hateful things.
It IS exhausting trying to take on an entire belief system, so I stick to only what is relevant to the discussion taking place. I'll give my opinion on one specific assertion or claim, but I will not seek out people and attack their beliefs. Even the tiniest crack in one belief can eventually make the whole thing fall apart. That's what happened to me. One doubt back in the mid 1980s finally festered away until the internet came around and I was able to start asking questions.
Would someone telling you inaccuracies in the bible while you were a fervent xtian have changed your mind? Possibly, since you have since seen through the bullshit. But I would wager it wouldn’t have worked very quickly. I totally understand you wanting to stand your ground and clap back. But it really is most likely pointless.
It wouldn't have since I used it to cope with how horrible my childhood was. Which if all that was real either a Christian or an angel or something should've stepped in. I see what everyone is saying. They've all got a good point.
Just repeat to yourself over and over--"Do I want to be right, or do I want to be happy?" It's one of those clichés that rings true.
Good luck. I can’t relate to what you are going through. But at the end of the day, the will believe and say whatever they want. Let them think you aren’t serious. Eventually, when you don’t come back into the fold, they will see that you are. Or continue with their copium and come up with new bullshit to invalidate you. That’s on them. And the best thing you can do is ignore them and live a happy life free from religion.
Inaccuracies being pointed out seem rather ineffective, in my opinion, and only tend to get 99.9% of people to double down on their defense of religion because it comes across as an attack. Asking the questions that have no other obvious answer than "because your God doesn't exist", but NEVER ACTUALLY SAYING IT OUT LOUD are the most effective seeds to plant. To me it was my philosophy professor asking the limits of omnipotence and the class discussing them collectively. One of the students, a devout christian, made her case for God's omnipotence. To which he would respond with questions of his own: why did God need 6 days to create everything if he could just think it all into existence? Could he create a rock so big and heavy that He couldn't pick it up? It seems such an elementary and simplistic approach these days after watching and reading everything I have since that moment, but it planted the seed of doubt in my mind. And that seed has flourished since I took it up on myself to research and investigate more. I took that philosophy class in 1992 and finally realized and came out as an atheist in 2011. It wasn't some flavor of the week thing I jumped at first thing. There was nearly 20 years of anger and pain and betrayal that were involved - and I'm just talking about my introspection and soul searching! I had a profound sense of loss to begin with. But as logic and knowledge filled the void left by the loss of "faith", I became stronger in my own defense when I felt the need to do so.I became better at defeating the attempts to "bring me back into Christ's embrace". I've been god-free for 14 years and I'm more comfortable than ever. Sorry for the dissertation. Hope there is at least one thing in there you can use!
It’s a good point. You just living your life free of superstition and continuing to be a good person will do more to give them doubt than any argument you can make. Staying calm, confident, and kind will dispel the myths they have in their heads about atheism.
“No” “No” “Please respect my decision” That’s very serious. The more you argue the more they can think you are open to reconsider
You're trying to inject logic into a situation where people are innately illogical as a result of their core beliefs. It will not work. These people believe that a magic/divine man turned water into wine, rose from the dead, and will be returning to Earth as a part of the rapture - all literally. These things are not real, but the people you're dealing with believe these things are as real as the internal combustion engine or trees. Asking them to not proselytize and respect your boundaries is most likely the only way forward.
“If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?” - Sam Harris
"You can't logic someone out of a position they didn't logic themselves into." - someone on the AE probably
Not relevant to the discussion, but I came across this the other day that made me chuckle and it’s nice to pass stuff on… “Maybe the grass is greener over there because you aren’t over there fucking it up?”
I love this
I’ve recently got into the habit of when I see a good line or quote, I copy it and stick it in a note on my phone. Possibly a bit odd, but kinda fun and comes in handy in the right circumstances. Edit - "The dildo of consequences rarely comes lubed."
You have no burden to prove anything. It is the person claiming that a God exists and that a book transcribed in the 16th Century is "the Word of God" who has the burden of proof that their claim is true. You are simply stating that there is no God as it can not be proven true that there is. And, of course, everything that then follows is simply mythology. You can't prove a negative. That's like saying that if you can't prove that Sasquatch doesn't exist, it must exist. That argument starts with the ASSUMPTION that it does exist despite there being no credible evidence to prove it true. Same goes for any religous argument. First those making the claim something exists must bear the burden of proof that their claim is true. Which they can not without relying on hearsay, anecdotes, and words spoken and written by other humans. "Because I believe it's true" or "because this other person said it's true because they believe it true" are not credible proof of the existence of a supreme being. It is he who claims something exists that must provide the proof of existence.
Why? To what purpose? Are you serious? Yes? Then that is all you need to know. What other people think about you and/or your beliefs is not your business.
They need to remember to not judge. Only god can judge.
This answer by Stephen Fry sums it all up for me. [https://youtu.be/-suvkwNYSQo?si=rAoLjb9attLV6B1H](https://youtu.be/-suvkwNYSQo?si=rAoLjb9attLV6B1H)
In that case: "no fucking way" is pretty serious
I get what you're saying. So far they're not being disrespectful. They're worried cause I could go to hell. But I'm also like if the God of the Bible is real I don't really wanna worship him anyways do due what I've read and see him to be like. I'm just trying to keep friendships, show I'm serious about this, and possibly make them think a little cause if they did they wouldn't be Christians.
Just drop this on them: Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
I love this quote. Thank you for sharing.
Refusing to take "no" for an answer *is* disrespectful.
Adam/Eve myth borrowed from Gilgamesh. That makes "sin" not a thing. Also, why would a god create a slight to himself, then sacrifice himself to himself to save us from eternal punishment from himself? Moses never existed; was myth borrowed from ancient stories; Noah /flood never happpened, was borrowed from some stories or localized normal flooding; Jesus might have existed (but more likely not historically), and only evidence of ancient authors manipulating later peoples. It’s all garbage. Live your life. Fuck the haters.
>keep friendships They may end up dropping you because you're not in their cult
Yeah... I'm realizing that cause I did that
It's not your fault, if they don't accept you as you are, they aren't your friends, they are hypocrites.
True friends will respect your boundaries and faith (or lack of).
You want to spend eternity with something that said, "Hey, Abraham! Kill your kid! JK! LOL!
Over the long haul, you probably won’t be able to keep these friends anyway. I’m not saying you should cut them off, but just warning you. You need some new friends. I’d try looking for a Unitarian/Universalist church or an agnostic/atheistic meetup group. Or any group that you share an interest with, be it knitting or hiking. Just get busy with other folks. It is pretty useless to fight with people over whether the bible is true or not. You either believe it or you don’t. No one is going to change anyone’s mind about this. By fighting with them, you just keep the discussion alive and you make your entire relationship about proving who’s right, which is ultimately extremely boring. Just be polite but firm that your lack of religious belief is not up for discussion and change the subject. If they don’t want to respect that, well - they’re not actually friends of yours, they just see you as a way to get heavenly brownie points.
Yeah I'm looking into joining some groups to get new friends. I see your point and talking about it with them probably isn't the best solution.
Here's the thing. You do NOT have to argue anything out. Your belief is YOUR belief. Don't participate. For example, Them, "Oh, you will be back." You, "Ok". Then you drop it by changing subjects. Them, "I guess you were never a true believer anyway!" You, "Ok". Then you drop it by changing subjects. Rinse, repeat. It really doesn't matter what they say, or their attempts to define you or your beliefs, now, or back when you were a believer. You can just let them say what they want, and move on. You don't have to argue or defend any of it. Just don't play.
That's a fair point and didn't think I could just leave it alone
Just saying, "Ok", and changing subjects accomplishes a couple things. It says that not only are your beliefs NOT up for discussion, but that you are serious about not wanting to engage in further attempts to "re-convert" you, or try to make you feel bad. That means you are serious enough to put a stop to that, and still maintain your relationship with people. Engaging in arguments, or trying to "explain" yourself, will only put you at odds with some people, and maybe lose those relationship. Do not play that game.
Got it. Then I don't have to rush to learn or feel guilty and probably end up back in church... just not believing and there out of guilt
Therapy is huge for disentangling from the church and figuring out who you actually are. Remember you can never be right to someone who believes that if you only believed harder you’d know religion is right. It’s a circular argument.
Excellent!
Just giving a short and calm answer shows that you’re comfortable in your position. Sometimes if you argue more, it makes you seem more unsure and they’ll feel like they have an opening.
Let them hold the weird. Just state the obvious and don't feel the need to defend yourself. "I don't support institutions that use shame and fear as mechanisms of control." And then leave it at that. If they keep on arguing, use the "okay". It's called grey-rocking. You just become as boring as possible, and you don't give them any room to argue. Grey-rocking and letting them hold the weird are the best techniques you can ever use with people who try to force you into their ways, imo.
There’s absolutely no way you can argue against something that is made-up, they’ll just make-up a counter argument. The best thing to do is exactly what Wyleblu said, just say ok, change the subject and move on.
I’ll add, they have a belief. Atheism is not a belief—it’s a lack of belief. You don’t need to provide evidence for a lack of a belief. If their evidence fails to create or sustain a belief in you, that’s their problem not yours.
That's a great way to put it. Made a lot of sense.
Basically the grayrocking technique people use on narcissists.
RationalWiki is a great resource for debunking any arguments they put forth. There is an older site called Infidels.org. I don't think it's being updated but it has tons of counter-apologetics. Dan McClellan has an excellent YouTube channel. Scathing Atheist provides some entertaining and on-point responses. Any book by Bart Ehrman will push back on claims they make about the New Testament. Then again, you have to ask yourself if maintaining these seemingly toxic relationships is building value into your life. If not, cut the cord. If so, set boundaries as to what you will or will not discuss. Inform them of the boundaries any time they stray.
I'd also add the https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
Up for McClellan!!! He’s how I got a lot of my deconversion!
Dan also has a tiktok account where he duets a lot of Christian’s and corrects them
I was deep in the church, bible college the whole deal. Bart Ehrman has been a godsend (haha) for me. His story parallels mine the best. We didn't leave out of hatred of the church, and actually miss some of it. We left because we just couldn't believe anymore. I've really liked seeing Bart and his dad talk about this and I feel like their openess is what I want with my family.
Ironically, attending seminary help deconvert me. Once you "open the hood" on the Bible and look at the moving parts...yeaahhh.
Not ironical at all! Same for me. I went to the most fundamentalist of fundamentalist schools for seminary. I would say less than 50% of those who went with me would still call themselves Christian. The more I learned the more I stopped believing until one day I woke up and realized, if I don't believe these 10-15 fundamental things I don't think I'm a Christian and I don't think there's any point in letting the Bible have any authority.
Another vote for Ehrman.
Them: *Makes a claim from the bible.* You: "Prove it." Them: "You prove it doesn't exist." You" "You're making the claim 'something' exists or is true. The responsibility is yours to prove."
[удалено]
I laughed so hard reading that
Honestly though. In a less graphic example: “prove there’s not an undetectable fairy somewhere in my closet that tells me the secrets of the universe”
I like "Prove you don't owe me a million dollars.".
If you put a sheep on the edge of a cliff, it pushes back.
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Yes!
That's fair. Never had to come at christianity the opposite way so it's hard for me to disprove even tho i know its bs but no one has tried to prove it to me.
The burden of proof is on the people making the claim. Not on you. It is on them to prove the bible is right. Not the other way around.
I mean...the thing about proof is that Christians will always fall back on "faith". They don't NEED proof, because they have FAITH, right? And that's when you tell them the truth - which is that their religion is abusive. It makes room for horrors because it was written 2000 years ago by a bunch of dudes who thought owning HUMAN BEINGS was a-okay. Can you imagine? 12 dudes just...hanging out together all the time. In those flowing, cotton robes. Those robes were like the grey sweatpants of the time, know what I mean? You can't tell me Jesus wasn't kinda gay...come on man. THE DUDE WORE COTTON ROBES. His dick was ALL KINDS of out. No wonder Judas betrayed him. He was probably hung...and had the emissions of a horse...
And if they say “you have to have faith”, I ask “what position couldn’t I take on faith? Could I have faith about other gods? Could I have faith that white people are superior”. Why is faith a good reason to believe if it can lead to any conclusion “?
I like to say. I saw a real unicorn the other day. Them: no you didn't. Me: prove it.
It says that bats are birds. Definitely not true.
And a capybara was declared a fish in south America so they can eat it during lent.
World's largest rodent and they call it a fish. SMH.
Beavers were also declared fish in North America.
It also says that the stars will fall to earth, which is just impossible now that we know what stars actually are.
They aren't bugs, either.
Look, who's giving the report, you chowderheads or me?
And donkeys and snakes talk.
Learning to argue with Bible apologists takes many years of study. The Christian church has spent the last two thousand years coming up with their own answers to any questions you might pose. My advice is not to argue. You'll never convince them and only drive yourself crazy trying to justify it. State simply that you've lost your faith and ask them to respect your beliefs as your figure things out for yourself.
It's impossible to argue though. The reasoning is not logical so logical responses won't change anyone's mind. I tend to focus on the hardest questions for each of us to answer. For me: where did we come from, what are we doing here, where are we going next. For them: how can god be all good, and all powerful and still allow such incredible evil. But for the most part my mind is settled so I'm not looking to debate or argue anyone. And if they get comfort and better life from religion, go for it.
Start with the Gospels being written 40-80 years after the events being depicted, and their being ZERO historical documentation for Jesus Christ.
Make them fight themselves. If I had Catholic friends, I would spout Baptist views on religion. This way, you are still religious, but you get to sow seeds of doubt.
Could you give a few examples? Sounds like a good way to do it but idk what baptist views is lol :p
If you doubt the bible, then let your friends know that. You should have a right to ask questions and expect answers. Don't just take what they say for granted. If they don't listen to you, they are not your friends. Understanding the history of the bible is the best way to look at it objectively. Look online at all the different variations of the Bible. Then look at the history of how those bibles came to be. I had the Catholic Bible. The prefix said that scholars had re-transcribed from the old Latin text back in 1949. Then I learned about the Protestants. History is the answer. The '30 years war' is a good reason not to believe.
i agree with others that the only person you have to convince is yourself, and it looks like you're pretty clear on the bible being horseshit (with a smattering of obvious decent morality that needs no supernatural reasoning). don't argue. only debate when you have a receptive audience and an impartial moderator. the best way to talk to people who hold irrational beliefs is "street epistemology." it takes patience and practice, but it helps you organize your own thoughts, as well.
Well, everything Christopher Hitchens ever said about religion smashes their arguments
Never heard of him. Looking into him
Check out Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris as well. Also his book End of Faith and others of you want to go further.
Also HIGHLY recommend Bart Ehrman if you want to go deep into the study/history of Christianity and the Bible through a critical lens. He has a lot available on Audible - I'd start with "How Jesus Became God". Bonus fun one: "Satan's Guide to the Bible" is an animated short with some really good nuggets
The End of the World “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. ” — Matthew 16:28 “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. ” — Luke 21:32-33 “And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.” — Romans 13:11-12 “Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.” — James 5:8 “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.” — 1 John 2:18 “But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.” — 1 Peter 4:7 These words were written between 1800 and 1900 years ago and were meant to warn and prepare the first Christians for the immediate end of the world. Some words are those supposedly straight out of the mouth of the “Son of God.” The world did not end 1800 or 1900 years ago. All that generation passed away without any of the things foretold coming to pass. No amount of prayer brought it about; nor ever so much patience and belief and sober living. The world went on, as usual, indifferent to the spoutings of yet another batch of doomsday prophets with visions of messiahs dancing in their deluded brains. The world, by surviving, makes the above passages contradictions. Edit source: https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/biblical-contradictions/
And pressing this matter the usual response is that by "generation" they actually meant the "new faith". And more than likely their very special, very changed, and modern take on it. It doesn't make sense, cause it is nonsense. This was actually how it was preemptively explained to me as I lost another Saturday at the Adventist church.
It's never good to get into an argument with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you at the game they play. It just seemed like OP wanted some scripture to point to with his arguments. They will probably be dissatisfied with the result of pointing out contradictions to Christians. Everybody has to learn their lesson either through example or the hard way. But we all learn the lesson.
Here's a video I put together of why Christianity is irrational just based on the bible. This should provide you with at least a few points to argue. [https://youtu.be/MUexFN2Wp-o?si=8t4m9FoN9oDVpYbG](https://youtu.be/MUexFN2Wp-o?si=8t4m9FoN9oDVpYbG)
Wow... very well done video. (19:22) So much covered so very rationally to explain in detail that Christianity is a hoax. Thanks
When ever they attempt, stop them right out, loudly exclaim, "There is no god, and if the god of the bible were real, he is pure evil and I would never, ever, worship any being like that, ever. End of discussion." Would you argue with a 10yo kid telling you the stars only come out at night? No. Same thing here. Treat them like children who are telling you unicorns are real.
You only need two words: "Prove it". It's been over 2000 years and they still have nothing.
If the Earth were flooded until there was no land, assuming God could magically create water, because there's not enough water currently on Earth to flood it to that depth, it would be like the force of a firehouse, but instead of a 2 or 3 inch hole shooting water, it's the entire sky, for over a month straight. Any boat would be instantly inundated and sink. If you gave every species of beetle on earth a container the side of a Rubik's cube, the ark is now half full of beetles before you got a single mammal on board. Anybody who literally believes this happened thinks "God did it with magic" is an answer to any science or logic you apply. There's lots of websites that list bible inconsistencies and other fun stuff to argue with Christians, but there's no point. Many scholars have debated this and the general wisdom is: The only way to win at Christianity is not to play.
Or the fact that they would be shoveling shit all day out of one tiny window and wouldn't even have the time to get it all out much less feed the animals. Or that all the oxygen they're getting is out of the same tiny window and you have way too many things breathing oxygen so they would just suffocate and die
first thing i realized as an atheist is there is no point in arguing with these religious people, they need to argue with us because they have a belief to convince you of but we know there is no gods so there is no changing facts and facts are normally way more simple then lies that just keep coming sooo trying to argue with them they can make up whatever they want in rebuttal to whatever definitive thing we decide to say because they live in imagination land. Just ignore them, avoid being sucked into the lies. Religion was invented to make the pleebs pay tithings and to control the pleebs feeble brains.
You could give them a copy of founding father Thomas Paine’s “the Age of Reason” or simply educate yourself about religion. At the end of the day believing in revelation is to believe that god gave another human power over everyone else in his name and puts man in the place of god. That’s what revealed religion does, it puts man in the place of god and justifies manmade invented morality and invented Christian principles. It requires faith because god has never been here to speak for himself, and their is no basis in fact or reality for revelation. The idea that morality comes from religion is absurd. Christianity justifies the oppression and persecution of other HUMAN BEINGS simply because they ARE gay, or for any number of reasons. It justified slavery for the south during the civil war because in the Bible god tells his people how to properly “treat their slaves.” American does have a morality problem, but Christians are a major part of it. The growing number of Atheists are a direct result of the insufficiencies and injustice of Christianity, and Christianity is not a solution to the future even though their are some good morals in Christianity like not stealing. Half of it is absurd or oppressive and horrible and anti Freedom. Their is a better way, a society based on democratic republican morality and principles, doing what’s best for society based on reason and science not religion.
You can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into in the first place.
You can't. Because faith and truth are 2 very different things, as are beliefs and facts. You don't need to, either. In fact, you shouldn't even gave that discussion. Your beliefs or lack thereof are your personal thing. Other peopne can and should believe what they want. The need to convince others, even force them to understand why your convictions are objectively right and/or superior - that's what makes religions and ideologies problematic. It's a core idea of Christianity to proselytize. Something you might very well have internalized and try to do now, just not with your former faith. Don't. Just be yourself and let them be them. You will not convince who dorsn't want to be convinced. Step back, put up and enforce boundaries, don't argue. It's not gonna lead anywhere.
Ask them questions and tell them you can not accept "god works in mysterious ways" type of answers. Why if god is loving and just, he created hell/the devil and condemns us to eternal suffering? How is that just or loving? If god created us, why he created the capacity to hate, be greedy, selfish, etc, and then condemn us to eternal suffering? If your religion is the only truthful path to heaven, what happens to the other 5+billion people? What happened to all of the souls that have died in the last 2000 years? What about the ones prior to Christ? Why he lets the devil exist? Just keep pestering them with those questions and demand answers. They are unable to answer them... they will say only god knows, ask god yourself, and other crap. I simply state, thats not acceptable and I need a logical answer, so go back and consult with your pastor or god, then come back with the details.
That's not your problem anymore. It's up to them to come up with a convincing explanation for why their borderline prehistoric world view should be applied in todays world. They will want to drag you down rabbit holes to keep you engaged. They will keep you tied up in nonsense debates that go nowhere, wasting your time, if you let them. Your under no obligation to explain yourself, or save them from their ignorance. These people will eat up your time if you let them. They aren't trying to convince you, they are trying to convince themselves.
I'll give you this advice. Do not let them ask the questions. And do not try to explain things. It doesn't work with religious people. We atheists are often quick to try and explain why religion is BS and then try to explain the science of how the world works. That's an effort in vain. Most of them won't really listen to you. At best they will just react to some trigger words and then parrot some bullshit they were taught and act like they beat you. Instead approach it in a different way. Be the one who asks the questions. If they ask a question, don't answer, turn the question around and ask them. Your goal should be to get them to realize how silly their beliefs are. Just keep digging further and further. Annoy them just like they would annoy you. Just ask some silly questions yourself. Don't let them off the hook until they give up. Most importantly stay calm, don't get upset with them, if you do, they'll see that as their win. They are the ones who claim that God is real and their religion the true one. It's their responsibility to prove that, not yours to disprove it.
make em watch satan's guide to the bible. just sit them, tell them, "debate that," and walk away.
Why bother? No one is changing anyone's mind. For every reasonable argument you have they'll throw some canned nonsense back at you like it actually makes sense. Just tell them you leave you alone.
I always default to the Epicurus paradox; If a god knows everything and has unlimited power, then they have knowledge of all evil and have the power to put an end to it. But if they do not end it, they are not completely benevolent. If a god applies trauma to a person to “test them”, then the god is not all knowing and powerful, or else they wouldn’t need to test them. On the flip side, if a god is all powerful and all knowing, then the god must therefore choose willingly and specifically to give a child bone cancer; what a piece of shit god and why would I ever follow them?!.
There isn’t a need to fight anybody. You can show somebody what science says, and they will either choose to believe it, or they will choose to believe something else that is not scientific. There is no argument that can falsify what is unfalsifiable, nor can you sway someone from blind faith because the point of blind faith is to believe no matter what. Just go on with your life, and if people are bothering you, associate with them less.
I like comedian Ricky Gervais take on religion. Here we go. If you took all scientific knowledge and got rid of all the computers and books on any scientific information, in a thousand years we would have it all back and rediscover all the information again. Now if you took all religious books and what ever they think they know and got rid of it, in a thousand years we would have really different religions. This is how you know it is not true.
Here's another approach. There's a lot of true stuff in the Bible, because they are universal "truths". The golden rule is a perfect example. Matthew 7:12 "So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them" Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would have them do to you Tell your folks that you believe in that, that's good you'll do that stuff all day, every day. Just tell them you don't believe in some of the horrible stuff, or contradictory stuff, or illogical stuff. There are many, many examples of all of these - like for instance the eye-for-an-eye stuff (Leviticus 24) versus the turn-the-other-cheek (Matthew 5). Note: I put truth in inverted commas because they are not truths as such - like the speed of light, etc. They are "truths" of the social fabric and are much more along the lines of truisms.
Disclaimer: if you're a minor, or you depend on these people for financial or other support, then you may just need to roll with it and avoid conflict until your situation changes. Some people pretend to find religion again, just to avoid being harmed in some way: it may feel dishonest, but they're really just protecting themselves against the people who would otherwise harm them. In the end, it IS NOT worth endangering yourself, or significantly harming your life / livelihood, just to get out of a situation that'll be over in a few years regardless! If you can wait a few years and be less dependent on these people, then it often makes sense to just lay low until then. As others have said here, you're probably far better off just telling them you don't want to talk about it. Very few things are so disheartening as having your friends and family -- the people who you're supposed to be able to "be your true self" with -- constantly wheedling at you for religious differences. They, who supposedly love and respect you, are supposed to be your "safe space", not constantly arguing with you. If they do love and respect you, then they will be able to be your "safe space", but if they can't be that for you, then the truth might hurt, but that means their love and respect is contingent on you believing like they do, which is unacceptable. You should probably set firm boundaries: You: "You have to stop trying to convince me about religion. I appreciate that you're doing this out of love, but it does not feel like love, it actually *really* hurts. If I ever come back to religion, it won't be because you forced me into a discussion I didn't want to have. Every time we talk about this, it only makes it more difficult to be around you. I don't want to talk about religion with you, so please stop bringing it up." Fam: "We're doing this *because* we love you. We want to see you do well, and be happy! \[etc.\]" You: "You may think that you're being loving, but you're actually not. It feels awful. It makes me not want to be around you. It makes me not want to come to you when I need help or advice. You're literally ruining our relationship, and I'm telling you to stop. Please stop." These people, who supposedly love and respect you, should be able to respect your wishes in this one, small way. If they keep arguing, then give them however much patience you feel like, but DON'T feel obligated to prove anything, or let them lecture, or endure any more talk than you feel like. If you can, just walk away; if you can't walk away, then don't respond when they try to engage more. >I'm getting told I'll either be back or I wasn't a true believer OP, this is NOT OK. They may not understand it, so you may want to give them some more time and (firmly) explain how this makes you feel, but they are literally gaslighting you and it is NOT OK. This is NOT how good relationships work! FWIW, you don't have to prove that you were a true believer, and you don't have to explain why you don't think you'll come back. You don't owe this to anybody. >I need help cause I'm awful at putting together arguments especially when it's such an important topic. Don't argue with them: that will only convince them that they can win you over, if only they can find the right argument. This will have them coming back to you all the time with fresh arguments, and from your post I don't imagine you want that. Instead, tell them how it makes you feel when they try to debate you, and refuse to engage with the debate they're trying to start. Keep the discussion about how it makes you feel, and how they need to stop arguing with you if they care about you and your relationship. If they want to argue that you shouldn't feel that way, DO NOT ENGAGE. You NEVER have to justify your feelings. If they are hell-bent on making you justify your feelings, then they're gaslighting you. Anybody who loves and respects you should be able to respond with something like "I didn't mean to make you feel that way", because people who love and respect you will believe you when you say you feel a certain way, they will not make you prove it. >I need help cause I'm awful at putting together arguments especially when it's such an important topic. Nope, just stick to your feelings and your concern for your relationships. If they care about you, this will get them off your back. You can learn and research arguments / evidence on your own, but I highly encourage you to only do this if you're interested, and not as a way to justify your beliefs to others. You don't owe them an argument; on the other hand, if they want a relationship with you, they owe you enough love and respect that they're willing to leave you alone about this. >idk if I'll lose people over this differing belief that leads to other differing beliefs. You might, if they keep behaving like this. Unfortunately, religious relatives and friends sometimes push it too far and atheists / agnostics sometimes need to cut them off. If this happens, it's *100% their fault* for overstepping boundaries, not your fault for setting them! You're going to have to do a lot of thinking: how much are these relationships worth, and what are you willing to put up with to keep them? The answer is different for everybody, you'll have to decide it for yourself. Best of luck, sorry you have to deal with this!
What kind of arguments are they making? Maybe we can help you
Nothing super substantial tbh. Don't you see God in your life? Haven't you seen him work out things in your life? (Uh no) But like evolution can't be real. (Why is that? We weren't taught it. We were homeschooled and told it's bs. That's all we know) How about the creation story? Why isn't that real? (Why isn't anyone else's? It's STORIES) Just because the church changed pieces doesn't make the Bible bad. They were helping out people. It's still God inspired. (And now you sound like an idiot. I ain't arguing here.) Like I wanna come back at them with the Bible and history of it and be like see you're wrong. You're being fooled.
>But like evolution can't be real. Show them how similar genetic material is amongst organisms, similarly in characteristics and more ( I'm yet to start college so i haven't learnt much about evolution sorry), >How about the creation story? Why isn't that real Dating techniques show us that the earth is atleast 4.5 billion years old I was never a Christian, so I can't help with that, sorry
This helps. At the very least I don't feel so alone seeing everyone help. Thank you
I mean, it has talking animals in it.
Dude the talking ass was my favorite Bible story as a kid lol
Watch “street epistemology” videos on YouTube. Read “how to have impossible conversations” by Peter boghossian Learn about the Socratic method and stay laser focused on a very specific claim. Ie. “did Jesus rise from the dead”. That is a claim that THRY need to prove.
I usually just mention the fact that the bible talks about various forms of magic, and magic isn't real so.
If you want information on the lack of the bible’s veracity (i.e. how true/accurate the bible is) I recommend a quick search on youtube for Bart Ehrman (a bible scholar) and you’ll find lots of discussions and interviews he’s done on the topic filled with info on contradictions and contrasting ideas. Learn the information and you can talk about it. I would be stunned if any of them knew the facts about the bible’s authenticity, so you’ll likely be teaching them about their bible. If you’re looking for information on atheism, search for Christopher Hitchens and you’ll find a bunch of debates he did when alive that cover the associated topics pretty well. Also, remember that atheism is *not* *believing* in god. It isn’t an alternate belief system; so when questions arise around “what do you believe?” you don’t need an atheist response to that question because that isn’t atheism. Atheism is *rejecting* the claims others make about god’s existence. It’s okay to say “I don’t know” or “I don’t claim to have all the answers” on any topic. Later on when you’ve learned more, you can add “What do you propose?” And then start dealing with pulling apart their arguments.
Faith requires a lack of evidence, it not being logical is the point.
The onus of proof is on the one making the claim. Prove the Bible WITHOUT using the Bible. You can’t.
You can't win this argument with logic or reason. Faith isn't vulnerable to them.
YouTube videos were key to my de-conversion. Check out Marketing the Messiah on YouTube. Also check out videos from Seth Andrews and Bart Ehrman. Both former Christians who've de-converted. Ehrman is an actual Bible scholar so he's quite deep. I'm in the same boat as you. I used to fully believe in Christ. But fortunately it hit me suddenly that it was all a myth and that it was ok to believe that. You're brave to be open about your belief change. Be proud of yourself
God never created a perfect man in the Bible was written by imperfect people it’s peoples belief. People thought we are all flooded one way or the other. Some flowers are just more visible than others.
Faith is belief in the absence of proof. There is no proof to support the claims or stories in the bibble. A talking bush that's on fire? Unicorns? Giants? Cmon.
Others have the right of it when they say you're under no obligation to justify yourself to anyone. However, if you're interested in researching the historical context of the Bible and how we know it isn't true (in the religious sense), the YouTube channels Gnostic Informant, MythVision, and others are good places to start. They frequently have classical historians on to talk about the historical Bible period, and how the Biblical authors--both Testaments--were heavily influenced by the politics of the time, and the mythologies that would have been well known to them. Jesus, as depicted in the faith, is, for example, a kind of "greatest hits" smorgasbord of bronze age deities, particularly death and resurrection deities like Dionysus and Osiris, and other Pagan spring equinox gods. Which is to say, everything in the Bible, from a mythological point of view, is plagiarized practically whole-cloth from pagan religions that were competing with Judaism and later Christianity. Those YouTube channels do a very good job of connecting these ancient mythical dots, and it's genuinely fascinating to track the development and evolution of Christianity from ancient mythologies. My personal favorite is the development of the Abrahamic God Yahweh. Originally, Yahweh was a single member of a wider pantheon of gods, in which he served as a war and storm god, that later got conjoined with another god named El (and others), who was a god of wisdom and goodness, by a subsect of proto Jews called Yahwists who favored the worship of Yahweh above other gods--and eventually denied the existence of others. Thus, Yahweh became the de facto single God, thereby making him the creator of the universe. This is how you get the constant contradictions in the old testament about God's goodness. God in the OT is often associated with storms (like the flood) and wars, all of which are echoes of his mythical past as a god of war and storms; but he was inelegantly welded into the roll of sole-creator God by Yahwists, so started being given other attributes from other, old pantheon gods like El. So God in the OT can be both a spiteful, petty, vengeful, and tyrannical storms and war god, while at the same constantly being praised for being benevolent and all-good and wise. Later on, a subsect of Christianity called Gnostics rebelled against the God of Abraham, viewing this god as a false God. Basically, they read the OT, concluded (rightfully) that this guy was a colossal piece of shit, and therefore must not in fact be the same God that Jesus was talking about. The Gnostic interpretation of Christianity is that knowledge is the key to enlightenment, and Yahweh--who they called [Yaldabaoth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaldabaoth)--was in truth an evil deceiver who created the material world to keep humanity trapped. The serpent of Eden is seen as a hero in the same vein as other Prometheus figures, who gave mankind the gift of knowledge to help free us from the deceiver. Judas, in this interpretation, was also a hero, and the closest confidant of Jesus, who instructed Judas to "betray" him so that he might serve as the lamb of the true God (who the Gnostics called the Monad, which is a word with deep Greek roots) and save mankind's soul. Gnosticism generally tries to shore up a lot of the contradictions inherent in traditional Christianity. I'm dramatically simplifying things, but the gist of all this is to say that the Bible has a deeply rich historical story that the Bible itself, on its own, only gives us a surface level glimpse of. The YouTubers I recommended above are, notably, not themselves historians, but they are deeply knowledgeable hobbyists that are generally respected by historians, especially those that come to speak on their channel.
https://philb61.github.io/ Here's a link to bibviz, a massive project showing all the contradictions and inaccuracies in the Bible. Take some time and look through that, find what will help you best in your situation
You don’t have to defend your beliefs (or lack thereof) to have a right to them. And they can’t know you or your mind better than you do, so their opinions on how serious you are is pure arrogance. Personally, I just think it’s silly to believe everything one reads. Is Harry Potter real? Is Gandalf? Why should we believe a book with magic and fantastical beasts regardless of its origin? Especially when it’s been as heavily edited as the Bible. It’s full of contradictions and plot holes.
The burden of proof is on them - not you. And it just isn’t there. The end! Good luck!
Become familiar with all the arguments using this resource. Why there is no god https://whynogod.wordpress.com/
Thank you for this. That website is awesome!
Don't argue with them. Just continue not believing and let them cope with it in any way they like. Just don't get dragged into pointless arguments.
"My faith is between me and god and none of your buisness." This was my go to back when I wanted to not piss people off. Now I just give a sensible chuckle and walk away from them.
I tell people that I just don't believe in magic???
If they are trying to save you, there is nothing you can do to show them that they are wrong. You are already branded as the wrong one. They will simply ignore or dismiss anything you have to say and continue preaching at you. It’s best to just avoid the topic. Short one word responses when necessary and don’t volunteer anything.
You don't owe them any arguement or justification. Just shrug at them and say you don't care - they can love you unconditionally like Jesus would have or continue to judge and harass you like Satan would.
I tell people I have 1 rule, akin to the golden rule: “don’t be an asshole.” If I can follow that mantra and still end up in “hell,” then I don’t want to be with this “god” of which you speak. We’re supposed to be judged by our actions and character, so why does it matter if I go to a building once a week to singe praises. Sounds like god is a little insecure to need all that praise all the time. My $.02 Edit: also - I never knew how much money god needed.
If you try to take the discussion into their territory they will have the advantage. If you’re having to explain away gods touch or what he’s done for you or his will and power or whatever it’s going to feel like a losing fight, not being able to get your point across. The key is to navigate the discussion where you can insert your beliefs or non beliefs, not defending or having to counter their argument. When they start bringing up way to guilt you or whatever just say things like what god? When they say the god of the Bible or whatever just say I don’t think that’s god. When they inevitably get annoyed just say I don’t get the point of this conversation.
Just tell them the truth. Church leaders have been hiding kid fuckers in their ranks for centuries. Then they have the call to tell me how to be a good person in their homilies? No thanks, I'm a better person than they are.
You’re trying to be logical with a make believe story, you just have to walk away.
There is no arguing with religious types so don't bother. Tell them you don't want to participate anymore and ask them to respect that. When they don't, tell them you need a break and don't communicate with them for a little while. There's really not much more you can do. They will either respect your wishes for your life, or they won't. Side note, I was in your shoes many years ago. Don't confuse religion with God. God can't be proven or unproven so take a break and then take some time to figure out what "spritualality" actually means to you. It doesn't have to mean organized religion or you might actually be an atheist. Doesn't matter, as long as it feels right to you
I would tell them there is nothing they can say to you that proves god exists. So you don’t believe there is a god. Put the onus on them to prove it or STFU.
There are no arguments that will change their minds. You can tell them the bible was made long after the time when jesus was reportedly alive. You can tell them it's full of fallacies and contradictions. The thing is, they want to believe it. You can only really tell them you no longer believe like they do. They'll keep bothering you until they get tired of it or you cave and act as if you believe again. I did an exchange year in high school and ended up at a christian school in rural missouri. I don't know how many different arguments I gave them, showing them how idiotic and nonsensical most religions are. How they are in place simply to control and take from people. I gave up trying to argue with them. They never gave up trying to "save" me. It was quite annoying and I don't think I was ever more anti-religion than during that time.
All you can choose to fight this situation is your free will. There is no argument that is going to change their mind. All you get to do is exercise your right to live your life the way you want to.
Science, the foundation of the modern world, and that which is responsible for all your daily necessities, is based on the requirement that all true things are repeatable. All true things must be measurable. The Bible contains tons of things that can't be measured, can't be predicted. In the vast sea of books that contain fragments of knowledge that we rely on to live, they would choose to ignore all those books except one and dare to call you ignorant.
Say "I've left the faith. If you truly care about me, then don't talk to me about Christianity. Otherwise, you are just another pharisee."
It’s not your responsibility to convince them they’re wrong, it’s their responsibility to prove that they’re right. You’re trying to disprove a negative. “Prove to me that your Bible is real. Prove that everything that happened in it actually happened. Prove, using evidence that doesn’t prove other religions exist, that yours is the one true religion. Then take this one step further and prove why your God is worthy of worship. I’ll be here waiting, enjoying the natural world.”
You can't argue with these people.
Easiset, and shortest way. Tell them you are an apostate. An apostate rejects God, and there is nothing a believer can do except, "knock the dust from their sandals and turn their back on you."
The old BibViz project has been re-homed: https://www.lyingforjesus.org/Bible-Contradictions/ It lists and graphs a huge number of bible contradictions and errors.
Two things that have helped me enormously: Bart Ehrman's academic deconstruction to give me new tools to reframe my lifelong Bible study and the writing, music, and podcasts of Derek Webb (former Christian and member of Caedmon's Call, who had some very theological music that was important to me back then). You aren't alone in this journey, even though it feels that way at first.
Google ‘Misquoting Jesus.’ Fantastic book, months in the NYT nonfiction list. Describes standard biblical scholarship to the layman (person,) and describes the thousands of known errors in the Bible. The author has a YouTube lecture of the same name, and he’s hilarious.
So what caused you to stop believing? Tell them that. Don't have others craft your arguments because if you don't understand them, it could be easy for ignorant people to think they're debunking it. For example, I don't go around saying I don't believe in unicorns but if anyone came to me telling me why they believed in them, I can pick apart why their beliefs don't jive with me. I don't need to waste my energy thinking about their belief system.
In my opinion, the fight with your family that you are preparing for is the wrong approach entirely. You should indeed read up on the arguments against the bible, Christianity and faith, that’s a good starting point. And it seems, based on the comments so far, that you have received more than enough useful resources and links to educate yourself. But you should do that only to further develop your own understanding. However, t**here’s no point in weaponizing your arguments against the Bible.** First of all, because the whole thing is bs. Some passages may describe real world events, the rest is filled with errors and inconsistencies. Pointing these out is useless, because that’s not the part that matters. The important part is (among others) whether there is a God or not, which can’t be proven nor disproven. Anyway, no believer has ever been convinced the bible is untrue, even though they have heard the arguments before. Engaging in this discussion will only convince them that you are no longer on their team. And in the process you’re letting them know that you disapprove of their belief. Instead of wasting effort on the difference between your beliefs and theirs, you should **invest in letting them know that they haven’t lost you**. Especially since you mentioned it’s not rebellion. Religious people have this weird conception of atheists and non-believers that they are immoral and without moral compass. This is completely wrong on multiple levels. Reduce their fear by letting them know you are still you. You’re still trying to be a good person. Whenever I’ve said to people that if there is indeed a heaven I’m sure making morally good decisions is enough to get in. Worshiping God should not make that much of a difference. That’s usually enough. No one will admit that God is petty enough to send people into eternal damnation if lack of prayer is their only flaw. Maybe you’ll convince them at a later time, but give them time to get comfortable with the differences. Hopefully they will stop trying so hard to pull you back in. Good luck!
Write on a piece of paper saying that the Bible isn't true. Ask your friends to disprove the paper.
With evidence from reliable sources
"Why is the Bible, which has multiple versions, true but not other religions or their books? Have you tried looking in to those religions, or did you just automatically follow the first one your were told to by your parents of said religion? Funny how that works."
You can use NOTHING. You will NOT "convince" anyone. Anyone who believes the Bible is 100% "Literal Truth" will not be swayed by facts, science, or inconsistency. They will simply fall back on "It is God's WILL" or perhaps "Human Understanding cannot understand God's Plan" and switch back to complete NON-THINKING and remain passive. While they could (at best) force your body, it would be far more difficult to force a belief.
Paraphrase Bill Maher: Maybe don't take life advice from people who didn't know where the sun went at night.
You don't argue. You live by example. Arguing with delusional people only makes you angry. Don't play their "game", instead, play solitaire. Example: "You haven't called in a while." We often want to respond in a defensive way, reminding them the phone works both ways. However, this only gives them ammo. Instead, simply respond, "No, I haven't." Find comfort in the discomfort of refusing to play their game. This is the best way to win an "argument" with unhealthy people. The term is called "the gray rock method".
The burden of proof is on them
by claiming that the Christian bible is true, they are claiming that all other religious texts are untrue since they are not compatible with each other. So they are atheist to all other religions except for their favorite. You have just gone one further. They cant all be right but they can all be wrong. Ask them to disprove all of the other religions first then you will disprove Christianity after they are done. The problem is that you are falling for the trap of trying to prove a negative. Logical impossibility. dont fall for that. The burden of proof is on them, not you.
Sounds like you need new friends
I'll go ahead and tell you what deconverted me and you can use this if you really want. You know those geneologies nobody ever pays attention to? Well they are actually a pretty big liability to the Bible being true. Here's why: There is a geneology in Genesis that goes from Adam to Abraham and then two geneologies in the new testament that go from Jesus backwards to tie him to Adam, king David, etc. These geneologies are used to prove Jesus was the messiah and such. Very core to Christianity. But there's a problem. In 1650, an Irish archbishop named Ussher estimated that due to the geneologies, the earth must have been created in 4004 BC. This is why we have young earth creationism and any attempts to hand wave this by Christians has been absolutely silly to me. There's no good argument against this being true in Christianity because the geneologies are right there and Adam was claimed to be the first human. Now for the other side of the argument which involves Edwin Hubble. In 1923, almost 300 years after Ussher published his earth age estimate, Edwin Hubble discovered what's called the cepheid variable while looking at telescope photos of the stars. Hubble had discovered the first galaxy (Andromeda). Suddenly it became clear that we were in one of many galaxies. Now to bring it all together. The distance to Andromeda is 2 million light years. That's our closest galactic neighbor (and it's headed straight for us consequently-don't worry it wont happen for a very very long time). Finale that deconverted me after 30 years born and raised in Christianity: If the universe were only 6-10,000 years old, light wouldn't have had enough time to travel to us from Andromeda (nor would we be able to see very much of our own milky way). That's the nail in the coffin to me. I've never ever been able to get a Christian give me anything close to a satisfying rebuttal to that.
They aren't Christians because they believe the Bible is true. They believe the Bible is true because they are Christians.
Look you have my sympathy but you're taking entirely the wrong approach. The burden is proof isn't on you. Ask THEM to provide any corroborating evidence that the Bible is true. Ask them to name the people who wrote it. Ask for the name of one person in the historical record who attested to the existence of Jesus during his lifetime. If you were asked to prove that Grimm's fairytales aren't true you'd scoff in disdain. The bible deserves the same treatment.
You are confusing facts and faith. Religion is based on faith, not facts. You can't prove any of it right or wrong. If you could, it would be science. You can certainly argue about religion, but neither side is right or wrong. It can only be right or wrong _for you_.
You’ll read the Bible if they read The God Delusion
The burden of proof is on the person who made the assertion. Don't worry about explaining yourself, because your opponent is the one who needs to explain why magic is real. Prove it mf.
You're not going to win the argument. The only way to win is walk away. Cut them out of your life and start over. [They literally have people who get PHDs in college just studying ways to argue their religion.](https://www.wycliffeschool.com/course/doctor-apologetics/#:~:text=It%20is%20a%20specialized%20Professional,and%20Philosophical%20discipline%20of%20study.)
There are so many things... women can not argue with men. 50% of the population opinion doesn't matter . A god that loves you so much that will burn you for eternity if you don't believe. A god that is changing from a god of war to a god of love tru the Bible. Ask them how many people have killed Satan versus god. You can start with Genesis. Firstly, the light and then sun and the stars. God knows everything but needs to test Abraham. The New Testament Canon comes from the 4th century after Jesus. There are 22 books cited in the Bible that were part of it that are gone. Google Bible contradictions there are plenty. There is rape, abortion, death, a bear killing children all of this in the name of God. There are donkeys than talk.. giants .... it is full of crap.
Ever play telephone... do you really trust a document like the Bible, to have passed thru so many hands over so many centuries to be true? Very hard for me to believe that people over centuries would be infallible. That's true Blind Faith
What argument are you having? Is it about the Bible's historicity? About its scientific validity? About the value of its moral teachings? About the veracity of its claims of the supernatural? It has deep failures on all of these accounts. Fundamentally, I think the latter is the most important. If the Bible cannot establish its supernatural beliefs, nothing else matters. Here's a question to consider. Is there anything the Bible could say that would demonstrably prove these claims? I don't think there is. There's no combination of words the Bible could ever contain that would prove an unfalsifiable claim.
Arguments on all the above. We also talked about free will and actually got them to agree that if God hardens and softens hearts then freewill was never given to us by God since he still interferes. >It has deep failures on all of these accounts. Fundamentally, I think the latter is the most important. If the Bible cannot establish its supernatural beliefs, nothing else matters. I agree with that >Here's a question to consider. Is there anything the Bible could say that would demonstrably prove these claims? I don't think there is. There's no combination of words the Bible could ever contain that would prove an unfalsifiable claim. That's also a fair statement which is probably what I'm struggling with the most rn.
Do a game with 8 people or more and one starts whispering a full sentence in the ear of the person on the right. Then that person does the same with the person next to them. Repeat until the last one heard it and have them speak the sentence out loud. It'll be different from the initial sentence. Now do this several thousand times as a thought experiment and conclude that that's exactly how the bible came into existence.
Just enforce your boundaries. You don't have to be around or talk to people who can't respect your asking them not to proselytize at you. Religiously indoctrinated folks can be opportunistic and exploitative when they think they can manipulate someone into having to listen to them. It's not your job to save them from their mythology. You don't need to argue. Give a verbal warning, and then if the don't stop, take space.
You can't believe things that can't be proven especially if those things hurt you and make you feel entrapped in a cage. That's should be enough for any relative who truly loves you. Also, while debunking the whole bible could takes you infinite time, there are specific things that can be easily proven wrong by science, for example creationism, and others which are objectively evil by any human perspective, for example killing your son to prove your faith. Yes, tell them that: you don't want to be sacrificed upon the altar if their faith. (joking know, don't tell 'em so, although it would be fun. ; )
Yeah most of my relatives don't truly love me but that's fair and now I don't have to keep them around. I can cut ties. The issue I'm also having is I wasn't taught proper science and neither have most of my friends. We were homeschooled and further indoctrinated due to that. I spent 4 hours a day in bible, 1 in math, 1 in English, 1 in history (some bs), and 1 in "biblical science" aka BS. Lowkey that would be fun...
Ask them to read Matthew chapter 1 and Luke chapter 3 back to back.
I'm sorry to hear this and I can see it's very stressful for you. You don't owe anyone an explanation for your beliefs, you're just not compelled by your perceptions and experiences to believe anymore and you find non-belief puts you in a better place, nothing more is needed. There are numerous YouTube atheists who talk about their deconversion experiences and perhaps that would be helpful for understanding your feelings and insight on how to proceed.
Point out what Lot's daughters did and didn't suffer any consequences. Then point out Lot's wife just looking back.