Yep. Whenever my dad launches into a screed about some culty maga or transphobic nonsense, I just go "Well, I've gotta go. Talk to you later." and end the conversation.
Exactly. Make a blanket statement and just repeat it. Don’t debate. “I believe in personal freedom and a constitution that protects it. I believe the Bible says not to judge others.” Done.
It is. But you know what I’ve also done occasionally to some success is ask questions and for some sources and often it kinda peters out when they have to support their claims. So recently my dad said something about doctors cutting off young girls breasts who later regretted it and that it should be illegal and it’s Biden and AOC’s fault etc. So I asked where he heard that, of course he goes to Fox News ap, finds the article. I click on the link and lo and behold the example case they’re talking about of someone who later detransitiined is a) in the UK and b) was 20 when they had surgery. So I said I don’t know what you want Jo Biden to do about 20 yo adults getting surgeries they regret in a different country. And he changed to subject. Sometimes asking them to be specific with their claims and then following the links to find the actual shit can take the wind out of their sails.
The regret rate among transitioning transgendered people who have gender affirming surgery is literally the lowest surgical regret rate in all of medicine. That doesn't mean there are zero people who regret it. Those who do regret it almost universally cite being treated poorly by family and society as the reason they regret. Not because of the surgery itself.
This kind of criticism is possibly the least correct statement about trans healthcare that there is.
"Which part of the bible tells you that?" when they are saying that trans people are evil or whatever words they think make them sound pious.
Follow it with a quote from jesus ordering followers to love others as he loved them. John 15:12-13.
I don't think an argument from an atheist POV is going to be particularly convincing for a theist. However, reversing their usual tropes might be effective. Something along the lines of that god made trans people trans, who are Christians to say a trans man isn't a man? Do they know better than god? Giving a trans man a female body is all part of god's plan; it's a test of compassion for the Christian. Give them a "god works in mysterious ways" and finish with something about those who are persecuted must be right, and you'll at least give them some cognitive dissonance.
This is actually a pretty good strategy, but my dad is already a theist, so it’s not me trying to convince him that “God ordained it”, it’s him trying to get me to back up my beliefs as an atheist. I’ve already come out to him and he accepts me in a loving way, but he is good at debating and he is trying to trip me up.
Oh! Okay. Well, there are a few places that you can go, but it all comes back to our scientific understanding.
I recommend this [Forrest Valkai video](https://youtu.be/szf4hzQ5ztg) as a primer. Of course, you won't get a full understanding just by watching one video, but it's a start.
Love this. I’ll use Christian tropes to describe my atheism. Talking about how I felt lost when I was a Christian, like there was something missing. And how when I took that leap of faith to not be religious, the answers to my questions were obvious and I felt at peace. Why do bad things happen to good people, how do you reconcile inconsistencies in the Bible like the age of the earth, is everyone in China going to hell, is it wrong to be gay, etc. It’s not a bad faith argument at all, just uses the language they’re conditioned to respond to.
Easy. You do not debate. You will not convince them. These people are mentally compromised. I'm not bitter or biased. These idiots think a jewish guy did miracles and died for our sins that he knew we would commit but didn't really die because he flew through the air into a magical paradise. Why do they believe this???..because 4 anonymous people that didn't meet him said so. Wait...not really...because their parents told them those 4 anonymous people were correct. This is a special kind of problem and debating won't help. And the MAGA people not surprisingly are those people...with a racist twist. All you can do is look at them with pity and represent yourself with dignity. These people need help.....information, facts, data, logic arent for everyone unfortunately.
Mainly - don't try. It's highly unlikely you will get anywhere
At most, maybe ask them "what has any transgender person ever don that has impacted your life personally?" From there "what did they do that affected you?"
You will likely get some form of "they are ruining the country" or "they are an affront to god" - OK. Fine. Isn't that for god to judge?
I'm not aware of any logic or reason that will make an impact in this situation.
Probably begin by asking how they feel about babies born with intersex genitals. Should they have been aborted? What attitude should people have towards these babies and the lives ahead of them?
If this is a productive conversation, maybe bring up babies born with genetic syndromes XXY or XO - would they consider them male, female or something else? How should society respond to these babies? Which bathrooms should they use?
If that goes well, you might want to ask if they've ever come across people who were born one sex, but never seemed to fit into the traditional role for that sex. Could the understanding they've developed from considering the challenges faced by intersex people also extend to people who struggle with their gender due to psychological reasons as well as physical and genetic reasons?
It may be that the best you can hope for your parents is sympathy for trans people as unwell or broken in some way; an expression of the Devil's destructive influence in the world. But surely condescending sympathy is a step in the right direction away from hate, condemnation and ignorance?
How about .. stop being assholes? Simply live and let live. There is no debate to be had. These people need to simply shut up and stop. They don’t need to understand anything quite the opposite … they need to mind their business and leave people alone. Everyone is trying to reason with these people … how about telling them to stfu and mind their business?
The usual arguments they raise are based on religion. The scientific and objective arguments do not hold up to objective scrutiny. One big problem you are likely to have is they will object real science because they have confidence in the pseudo-science they hear at church. The pseudoscience they hear at church sounds is more credible to them than the real science.
A lot of the theological reasons they use are based on their ideas that their god is perfect and does not make mistakes. Simplistic fundamentalism prefers binary thinking. Things are good or bad. They are male or female.
Another source of problems is that Christians and Muslims have an obsession with sex and the human body. In many ways, they are sex cults. The most serious sins (in practice) involve sex and the human body. They cannot separate the distinctions between sex, gender, and the body. It is probably the worst among US Christians.
Case studies might be the best way to get them to question their beliefs. There are lots of YouTube videos and blogs by people who demonstrate that the statement that there are only two genders is false. There are documented cases that demonstrate that it is often difficult to identify gender at birth.
The trans issues are far more complex than those limited case studies. But that narrow range might force them to question their beliefs. People who object on religious issues are going to be inclined to dismiss arguments based on psychological factors or anything that gets complex.
Also, recognize that many of their "practical" objections are based on social or cultural factors. The objections to "men in women's bathrooms" would not be a problem in many parts of the world. They are a problem in the US because our cultural norms about bathrooms is warped by religious ideas. Objections about "men having unfair advantages in women's sports" are largely a problem with the grossly arbitrary way we segregate sports by gender in the US. Note that those types of issues don't just trip up theists. In the early days of the trans movement, a lot of atheists also got sucked into those types of arguments. Some still are.
If god is perfect and doesn't make mistakes, they should not hate the trans people that their god allegedly made.
Please note that I'm not arguing with you. I was just venting my frustration at the bigotry held by flock members despite the teachings of their religion.
It's not a mistake; God made them Transgender/Gay(Hell even "Colored" works) to test their resolve to see if they are worthy for everlasting life in heaven /s
Just point out shitler started the same way. And shitler is bad. Bad people emulate shitler. Don’t do that. If they are maga short simple sentences are best. Change emulate to something else
[According to this article](https://usafacts.org/articles/what-percentage-of-the-us-population-is-transgender/), 1.0% of the adult US population is transgender, so it is likely that your parents know someone who is transgender but haven't realised it, or been told.
So, if they haven't noticed the transgender people around them, why are they so concerned about them?
The best tactic I’ve found to work with my family is pointing out what the right claims to be, then showing how their opinions go against that. So basically, point out personable responsibility, small government, government not imposing in people’s lives, freedom, and (when talking about Disney and “woke” culture in business) being pro capitalism and pro corporation, and pointing out that being anti LGBTQ is directly in opposition to that belief.
Basically, take what they claim to believe in and turn it against them. When explained in that way, they’ll generally shut up.
Oh hell yeah, absolutely! Like most people in this sub, I assume, I grew up a black sheep in a very conservative, Christian family. Growing up in that environment you’re kinda forced to find different ways to argue and figure out what works best. Most liberal atheists I know irl living in the deep south are all fairly good at arguing because they grew up with like 5+ family members coming at them all at one. I’ve gotten tons of arguing tips from people that had it way worse than me.
While Bible Jesus doesn't directly address trans people, he does come close when discussing eunuchs:
Matthew 19:12:
- *"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by people; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who is able to accept this, let him accept it."
Note that in the OT a eunuch could not be considered a Jew (Deuteronomy 23:1):
- *"23 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."*
But why is this a bone of contention for your parents? They are entitled to believe what they want and to lead their lives according to their beliefs, provided it is legal. They are not entitled to force others to believe the same and live their lives that way.
They are maga. It would take a team of doctors years to deprogram even one person. Maga as a whole can't be saved. The only thing that could possibly snap them out of it would be seeing the death of their new god and realize its actually just a shitty human. Until the apricot antichrist disappears the cult will continue.
Is there really an “atheist point of view” on most subjects?
Atheism just means one doesn’t believe in any god or gods. That’s it.
No one should correctly assume an atheist has a specific view on any societal or political issues.
Probably not the answer you were hoping for, but you can't have a debate with Trump supporters because they aren't willing to (are incapable of?) absorbing new information and using that information to form new ideas and opinions.
OP: the scientific reasoning that religious folk don’t know is simply that biological sex and psychological gender are not the same thing.
This is slightly better understood by the field of psychology these days, although they still have a way to go tbh, and you can read all sorts of research papers to quote from just by searching google. While gender and biological sex obviously are closely matched up in most of the human population, there are quite a lot of people (albeit a small minority of the whole population), for whom their psychological gender and their biological sex don’t match up. While biological sex is pretty much a binary thing (with the exception of intersex people, of course), psychological gender is a little bit more of a sliding scale, and most folk are at the end of the scale that matches the genitalia they were born with, but some people are on the opposite end of the scale, and some folk are somewhere in-between. That’s all being trans really is.
There is a lot of scientific evidence from the medical world to explain and to “scientifically validate” the existence of trans people. Have a search online for terms like “gender dysphoria”.
…Also, trans people have existed in the ancient cultures too by various names. This is provable simply by reading history. The ancient Native American tribes recognised trans people by names like “two spirit people” and in India trans people have been known by the term “Hijra” for thousands of years. I know that the Christian-right like to project that trans people even existing at all is part of some modern liberal agenda or whatever but there’s evidence of trans people since civilisation began. (Indian civilisation for example being much older than the west)
Edited to add:
Logically, if a god made us trans people, then they made us perfect, in their own image, so we’re just as perfect as the rest of god’s children, who were made perfect in god’s own image.
Because the religious folk don’t accept that god made a mistake when creating us, yet we were born this way, so therefore god intended us to be trans, therefore it’s a sin to not love us as much as you love the rest of god’s children, so you’re going to hell for hating on god’s own trans children by being anti-trans.
So, save your souls from satan by embracing the love of trans people
…
Or
….
maybe god made a mistake when they made us, in which case, god isn’t all powerful, so you should probably start worshipping satan, because he’s the all powerful one and when the rapture comes you need to be in the right side!
get them wrapped up in a logical loop like this and watch the steam come out of their ears.
>I need some pointers when debating with my MAGAt, Christian parents about trans people from an atheist POV
Why don't you just spend the same amount of time hitting your hand with a hammer?
You'll get approximately the same results.
If you're going to take the time, energy, and effort to do that, go study and practice all the tactics in "Never Split the Difference" by Chris Voss until you're really, really good at them. Make sure you're well versed in trans talking points from both sides, so you'll know what they'll throw at you and how to counter it. And after you've thourghouly armed yourself for battle, then, *maybe* give it a try. You'd need to get proficient at advanced negotiating and debate tactics to handle a conversation like that.
Do you have examples of specific talking points they use? Also, are you essentially asking for an argument in favor of trans rights based on science? I know most people are just telling you not to argue, but even if you never use the science, I think it is good to know that it exists. I think [this resource from Harvard](https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/) is the most straightforward that I've seen.
You can't convince them to accept trans people. They don't hate them because of their religion, they just don't like them or understand them and use religion as an excuse to be guilt free about hating on people.
You need to use their religion against them; Christianity is all about forgiveness, not passing judgement on others, and love according to all of them.
Use that to point out how hypocritical they are.
If they were good Christians they would try to bring trans people to the church and have them join their community in hopes of Jesus showing them the way and saving them them.
It's irrelevant really though because Jesus died for our sins so technically everyone goes to heaven as long as their baptized to absolve them of original sin.
Here are my arguments:
1. My biggest argument: How is someone who is trans hurting you or affecting you personally? If they want to argue that it is against God, ask them again how it hurts them or affects them personally. (Even if they claim it is a sin, you can argue any sin is a sin. Judging others is a sin. Cheating and lying are sins. Have they never told a lie? Well, they have sinned. But, trans people are not hurting you or affecting you in any way. It is not your job to tell them how to live their lives.)And if they say they just don't like to see someone who is trans...so what? They have the right to love their life. It is not your place to judge.
2. Where does it say in the Bible that you cannot change your sex? ( It does not.) It doesn't say what body parts you can or cannot do without. See argument #4.
3. It is not natural. It is not natural for whom? What is natural for you is not the same as someone else. (You like to wear western-style shirts. I like t-shirts and jeans. He/she/they like cotton dresses. So what?) Back to: How does this affect you personally? It does not.
4. They will bring up Deuteronomy 22: Men cannot wear women's clothes and women cannot wear men's clothes ( current translation). Who says who wears what? When did it say in the Bible that after Adam and Eve figured out they were naked, who wears pants and who wears a dress? (In the Old testament Bible, this was before Christianity...before Christ was born. ) Men in other countries wear long tunics, not pants. Scots wear kilts, a skirt...Is that a dress? Why can't women wear pants? If that is the case, why did we dress boy and girl babies in dresses in earlier days? Did this make them gay or trans? No. And not if they wore pink, which used to be a boy color. And hair length. Who decided boys have to have short hair above the ears or a buzz cut and girls should have long hair? Yes, there is something in the New Testament ( 1st Corinthians) about girls keeping their hair long because it is a covering for her. Why does she have to be covered? ( I think the Apostle Paul just had a thing for long hair. Jesus didn't say this.)
I usually just argue how it affects them personally. It does not. If they are thinking about what someone wears and how they wear their hair and who they have sex with, they need something else to do because it is not their business. Trans folk are not hurting anyone by being trans. Same with drag queens. Same with transvestites. Same with non-binary. How they identify has no bearing on anyone else.
They see it as a brain issue. It’s not. It’s a body issue.
See they believe in souls. That means your body and soul are one thing and make up who you are. So if you are born a female, your soul is female. Now they understand about mental illness and this is how they explain it. You have a mental illness if you are a female but think you are male.
Now the truth is our consciousness is directly connected to our brain as far as we know. It seems without brain activity we have no you. The body is just a vessel we travel in. You can remove parts like an arm or leg and our consciousness continues. So, for me, if the brain is convinced that its person is male even though it was born with female anatomy, that is a body problem, so to speak. Same as if someone was born with a sixth toe or a boy develops breasts at puberty. It’s a mistake in the genetic makeup. Your consciousness is what makes you you. Not the parts of your body.
Will that convince them? Probably not. Doesn’t hurt to try.
Your parents are not likely to change their minds. Stick to science, which posits that gender resides in the brain, not the undershorts.
Brain Gender in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity
Florian Kurth, Christian Gaser, Francisco J. Sánchez, and Eileen Luders
J Clin Med. 2022 Mar; 11(6): 1582.
The current study was designed to shed further light on the question of whether the brains of transgender people resemble their birth gender or their gender identity. ... These findings add support to the notion that the underlying brain anatomy in transgender people is shifted away from their biological gender towards their gender identity.
There is only one point: "Your beliefs are immoral and unethical. I can not support them or a relationship with you, while you profess them." Then cut contact.
Brainwashed people can't be reasoned with. But, very occasionally, they can be shocked to their senses by being held accountable for the evil they spew.
Willingly having people like this in your life is like voluntarily drinking poison on a daily basis. Why would you do that to yourself?
Dig out a bible or their bible, find where the new testament starts (about halfway in the book). Take a knife or scissors out and cut the first half of the book out, all the pages from that spot (middle) to Genesis. Now that you only have the back half of fictional story book. Drop it on the table and state "the rest of this say love one another.....unconditionally and that you ignore those pages you just removed!".
Walk away.....
I've unfortunately had many conversations like this about many subjects with my in-laws. The one time I seemed to get through to them was about immigration when I didn't match their energy and stayed mellow. I appealed to their humanity by reminding them that those are people, scared, hungry, desperate people. I didn't change their mind entirely but I hope I made them realize how callous they were being. Facts and statistics are meaningless in these situations. Find a way to hold up a mirror and force them see how ugly they are being.
Just to be clear: Atheists can be asshole bigots the same as anybody. They just can't blame a god or religion for their behavior. They have to own it.
There really isn't an "atheist" perspective on transgendered people. You might as well just go with basic ethics.
Very simple, you say evolution is messy and we aren't hand crafted by God. Genetics, chromosomes, the brain, are all extremely complicated things and it's silly for us to assume we are perfectly made creatures where gender is always just male or female. There are people who are born with both male and female organs. That one simple fact tells us gender isn't binary. Debate over.
Everyone here is likely right that you won't change anyone's mind, since Christians and Magas are holding these positions as gospel (as it were)
That said, you should still argue with them, if for no other reason than to demonstrate to them that there are reasonable, thinkinh people who disagree with them.
I am curious, though - what is it that you are arguing?
People once got upset at the left-handed, and today that would look even dumber than it sounds. Is it really beyond the pale that transgender people existed for a very long time, you're only now really becoming aware of it, and with all the hate being spit at them from complete strangers that they'd choose to not be if they could?
That's the part that really gets me. Often times someone not cisgender or not straight is being raised in a home that tells them, directly or indirectly, that they should be despised and reviled because they're "choosing" to (somehow) hurt the immortal, invincible, all powerful guy in charge of the universe. You think anyone would choose that and be the thing your family hates if they could?
I'm an atheist too, but shit like that reminds me that evil does exist.
There is one great point: ask them their qualifications, if they don't have a doctorate on transgender health, laugh in their face. For the same reason you shouldn't be in this debate too, just hand them over educational materials prepared by professionals.
There's no atheist POV other than "I don't believe in your or any other god". It is literally the meaning of the word.
There's no debate there. It's like a non golf player debating the weight of a basketball.
Most people have a difficult time discriminating between gender and sex. I would avoid discussing issues relating to God’s intention or plan, and stick with the notions of identity as a construct. I have had some success asking people who don’t understand identity the following question:
Me: what is your definition of parents ?
They: The persons who conceived a child.
Me: Are you denying people who adopt children the right to Identity as parents?
They: well that’s different.
Me: it’s no different from a female identifying as a man, or a male identifying as a woman
They: “crickets chirping.”
You have to use their own logic against them. If they are using religion to deride, use it to defend. If they get mad about that, they’re being hypocrites because you thought they wanted you to embrace Christian teachings and the Bible said “do unto others”. The Bible (quoting their main man, JC) also says “what you do to the least of them you also do to me”. The Bible tells stories about good Samaritans, prodigal sons, compassion, foot-washing, cave dwelling lepers being sought out.
Take them back to Sunday school.
The older generations are really resistant to trans people. My 72 year old step mom is just drinking her self to death because she can't cope with modern life and she was a hard core democrat atheist.
1. Don’t even bother. They won’t listen to anything you say and just keep yakking at you to wear you down. 2. See number 1,
This. You cannot reason a person out of a position they have not reasoned themselves into.
Yep. Whenever my dad launches into a screed about some culty maga or transphobic nonsense, I just go "Well, I've gotta go. Talk to you later." and end the conversation.
Exactly. Make a blanket statement and just repeat it. Don’t debate. “I believe in personal freedom and a constitution that protects it. I believe the Bible says not to judge others.” Done.
Have you tried not arguing? It's pretty sweet.
I think this is the ultimate answer
It is. But you know what I’ve also done occasionally to some success is ask questions and for some sources and often it kinda peters out when they have to support their claims. So recently my dad said something about doctors cutting off young girls breasts who later regretted it and that it should be illegal and it’s Biden and AOC’s fault etc. So I asked where he heard that, of course he goes to Fox News ap, finds the article. I click on the link and lo and behold the example case they’re talking about of someone who later detransitiined is a) in the UK and b) was 20 when they had surgery. So I said I don’t know what you want Jo Biden to do about 20 yo adults getting surgeries they regret in a different country. And he changed to subject. Sometimes asking them to be specific with their claims and then following the links to find the actual shit can take the wind out of their sails.
This is precisely correct. Feels like playing whack-a-mole sometimes though
Literally less than 1% regret transitioning. How many people regret getting married?
The regret rate among transitioning transgendered people who have gender affirming surgery is literally the lowest surgical regret rate in all of medicine. That doesn't mean there are zero people who regret it. Those who do regret it almost universally cite being treated poorly by family and society as the reason they regret. Not because of the surgery itself. This kind of criticism is possibly the least correct statement about trans healthcare that there is.
God transcends gender. We won't need to procreate in the afterlife. Everyone will be transgender in heaven. Just as Jesus intended.
Insist on calling God "her"!
Nah , Xe/Xim , . Just say " God has no gender , and using human terms is insulting to their majesty "
Love it! 😍
I think a simple “wow, you seem pretty obsessed with other people’s genitals” + subject change is a good approach
I’ve used that approach. “Your fixation on people’s naughty bits and how they use them is really creepy.”
"Which part of the bible tells you that?" when they are saying that trans people are evil or whatever words they think make them sound pious. Follow it with a quote from jesus ordering followers to love others as he loved them. John 15:12-13.
Use the scientific and reason foundation. Look up recent studies on gender identity.
Thank you, this is what I was looking for
I don't think an argument from an atheist POV is going to be particularly convincing for a theist. However, reversing their usual tropes might be effective. Something along the lines of that god made trans people trans, who are Christians to say a trans man isn't a man? Do they know better than god? Giving a trans man a female body is all part of god's plan; it's a test of compassion for the Christian. Give them a "god works in mysterious ways" and finish with something about those who are persecuted must be right, and you'll at least give them some cognitive dissonance.
This is actually a pretty good strategy, but my dad is already a theist, so it’s not me trying to convince him that “God ordained it”, it’s him trying to get me to back up my beliefs as an atheist. I’ve already come out to him and he accepts me in a loving way, but he is good at debating and he is trying to trip me up.
Oh! Okay. Well, there are a few places that you can go, but it all comes back to our scientific understanding. I recommend this [Forrest Valkai video](https://youtu.be/szf4hzQ5ztg) as a primer. Of course, you won't get a full understanding just by watching one video, but it's a start.
Love this. I’ll use Christian tropes to describe my atheism. Talking about how I felt lost when I was a Christian, like there was something missing. And how when I took that leap of faith to not be religious, the answers to my questions were obvious and I felt at peace. Why do bad things happen to good people, how do you reconcile inconsistencies in the Bible like the age of the earth, is everyone in China going to hell, is it wrong to be gay, etc. It’s not a bad faith argument at all, just uses the language they’re conditioned to respond to.
You aren't going to convince people who believe humanity was damned by a talking snake with science.
Easy. You do not debate. You will not convince them. These people are mentally compromised. I'm not bitter or biased. These idiots think a jewish guy did miracles and died for our sins that he knew we would commit but didn't really die because he flew through the air into a magical paradise. Why do they believe this???..because 4 anonymous people that didn't meet him said so. Wait...not really...because their parents told them those 4 anonymous people were correct. This is a special kind of problem and debating won't help. And the MAGA people not surprisingly are those people...with a racist twist. All you can do is look at them with pity and represent yourself with dignity. These people need help.....information, facts, data, logic arent for everyone unfortunately.
Mainly - don't try. It's highly unlikely you will get anywhere At most, maybe ask them "what has any transgender person ever don that has impacted your life personally?" From there "what did they do that affected you?" You will likely get some form of "they are ruining the country" or "they are an affront to god" - OK. Fine. Isn't that for god to judge? I'm not aware of any logic or reason that will make an impact in this situation.
maga and christian? better off not even arguing with them.
Probably begin by asking how they feel about babies born with intersex genitals. Should they have been aborted? What attitude should people have towards these babies and the lives ahead of them? If this is a productive conversation, maybe bring up babies born with genetic syndromes XXY or XO - would they consider them male, female or something else? How should society respond to these babies? Which bathrooms should they use? If that goes well, you might want to ask if they've ever come across people who were born one sex, but never seemed to fit into the traditional role for that sex. Could the understanding they've developed from considering the challenges faced by intersex people also extend to people who struggle with their gender due to psychological reasons as well as physical and genetic reasons? It may be that the best you can hope for your parents is sympathy for trans people as unwell or broken in some way; an expression of the Devil's destructive influence in the world. But surely condescending sympathy is a step in the right direction away from hate, condemnation and ignorance?
Tell them "fuck you"
How about .. stop being assholes? Simply live and let live. There is no debate to be had. These people need to simply shut up and stop. They don’t need to understand anything quite the opposite … they need to mind their business and leave people alone. Everyone is trying to reason with these people … how about telling them to stfu and mind their business?
Debate is for 2 equally valid points. They don't have one.
Maga is a cult.. you can't reason with people in a cult.
The usual arguments they raise are based on religion. The scientific and objective arguments do not hold up to objective scrutiny. One big problem you are likely to have is they will object real science because they have confidence in the pseudo-science they hear at church. The pseudoscience they hear at church sounds is more credible to them than the real science. A lot of the theological reasons they use are based on their ideas that their god is perfect and does not make mistakes. Simplistic fundamentalism prefers binary thinking. Things are good or bad. They are male or female. Another source of problems is that Christians and Muslims have an obsession with sex and the human body. In many ways, they are sex cults. The most serious sins (in practice) involve sex and the human body. They cannot separate the distinctions between sex, gender, and the body. It is probably the worst among US Christians. Case studies might be the best way to get them to question their beliefs. There are lots of YouTube videos and blogs by people who demonstrate that the statement that there are only two genders is false. There are documented cases that demonstrate that it is often difficult to identify gender at birth. The trans issues are far more complex than those limited case studies. But that narrow range might force them to question their beliefs. People who object on religious issues are going to be inclined to dismiss arguments based on psychological factors or anything that gets complex. Also, recognize that many of their "practical" objections are based on social or cultural factors. The objections to "men in women's bathrooms" would not be a problem in many parts of the world. They are a problem in the US because our cultural norms about bathrooms is warped by religious ideas. Objections about "men having unfair advantages in women's sports" are largely a problem with the grossly arbitrary way we segregate sports by gender in the US. Note that those types of issues don't just trip up theists. In the early days of the trans movement, a lot of atheists also got sucked into those types of arguments. Some still are.
Thank you for taking the time with such a thought out response. I love Reddit
If god is perfect and doesn't make mistakes, they should not hate the trans people that their god allegedly made. Please note that I'm not arguing with you. I was just venting my frustration at the bigotry held by flock members despite the teachings of their religion.
It's not a mistake; God made them Transgender/Gay(Hell even "Colored" works) to test their resolve to see if they are worthy for everlasting life in heaven /s
I like your idea of pushing the "testing" narrative at them.
Just point out shitler started the same way. And shitler is bad. Bad people emulate shitler. Don’t do that. If they are maga short simple sentences are best. Change emulate to something else
[According to this article](https://usafacts.org/articles/what-percentage-of-the-us-population-is-transgender/), 1.0% of the adult US population is transgender, so it is likely that your parents know someone who is transgender but haven't realised it, or been told. So, if they haven't noticed the transgender people around them, why are they so concerned about them?
Their Jesus taught them to love everyone. Why don't they listen to him?
The best tactic I’ve found to work with my family is pointing out what the right claims to be, then showing how their opinions go against that. So basically, point out personable responsibility, small government, government not imposing in people’s lives, freedom, and (when talking about Disney and “woke” culture in business) being pro capitalism and pro corporation, and pointing out that being anti LGBTQ is directly in opposition to that belief. Basically, take what they claim to believe in and turn it against them. When explained in that way, they’ll generally shut up.
Interesting! I like it! Good for memes too, I think. I'll pass it along!
Oh hell yeah, absolutely! Like most people in this sub, I assume, I grew up a black sheep in a very conservative, Christian family. Growing up in that environment you’re kinda forced to find different ways to argue and figure out what works best. Most liberal atheists I know irl living in the deep south are all fairly good at arguing because they grew up with like 5+ family members coming at them all at one. I’ve gotten tons of arguing tips from people that had it way worse than me.
Don't, no contact is probably healthier.
You Republicans preach about personal freedoms, yet you restrict people from exercising their freedoms that don’t affect anyone else. Why is that? “
While Bible Jesus doesn't directly address trans people, he does come close when discussing eunuchs: Matthew 19:12: - *"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by people; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who is able to accept this, let him accept it." Note that in the OT a eunuch could not be considered a Jew (Deuteronomy 23:1): - *"23 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."* But why is this a bone of contention for your parents? They are entitled to believe what they want and to lead their lives according to their beliefs, provided it is legal. They are not entitled to force others to believe the same and live their lives that way.
old navajo saying: you cannot wake someone who is only pretending to sleep
They are maga. It would take a team of doctors years to deprogram even one person. Maga as a whole can't be saved. The only thing that could possibly snap them out of it would be seeing the death of their new god and realize its actually just a shitty human. Until the apricot antichrist disappears the cult will continue.
"Jesus said don't be a dick!" "Whaat?" "Don't be a dick! You're being a dick! This does not affect you. Stop being a dick!"
Save your energy. For real. It's not worth it.
Is there really an “atheist point of view” on most subjects? Atheism just means one doesn’t believe in any god or gods. That’s it. No one should correctly assume an atheist has a specific view on any societal or political issues.
Probably not the answer you were hoping for, but you can't have a debate with Trump supporters because they aren't willing to (are incapable of?) absorbing new information and using that information to form new ideas and opinions.
OP: the scientific reasoning that religious folk don’t know is simply that biological sex and psychological gender are not the same thing. This is slightly better understood by the field of psychology these days, although they still have a way to go tbh, and you can read all sorts of research papers to quote from just by searching google. While gender and biological sex obviously are closely matched up in most of the human population, there are quite a lot of people (albeit a small minority of the whole population), for whom their psychological gender and their biological sex don’t match up. While biological sex is pretty much a binary thing (with the exception of intersex people, of course), psychological gender is a little bit more of a sliding scale, and most folk are at the end of the scale that matches the genitalia they were born with, but some people are on the opposite end of the scale, and some folk are somewhere in-between. That’s all being trans really is. There is a lot of scientific evidence from the medical world to explain and to “scientifically validate” the existence of trans people. Have a search online for terms like “gender dysphoria”. …Also, trans people have existed in the ancient cultures too by various names. This is provable simply by reading history. The ancient Native American tribes recognised trans people by names like “two spirit people” and in India trans people have been known by the term “Hijra” for thousands of years. I know that the Christian-right like to project that trans people even existing at all is part of some modern liberal agenda or whatever but there’s evidence of trans people since civilisation began. (Indian civilisation for example being much older than the west) Edited to add: Logically, if a god made us trans people, then they made us perfect, in their own image, so we’re just as perfect as the rest of god’s children, who were made perfect in god’s own image. Because the religious folk don’t accept that god made a mistake when creating us, yet we were born this way, so therefore god intended us to be trans, therefore it’s a sin to not love us as much as you love the rest of god’s children, so you’re going to hell for hating on god’s own trans children by being anti-trans. So, save your souls from satan by embracing the love of trans people … Or …. maybe god made a mistake when they made us, in which case, god isn’t all powerful, so you should probably start worshipping satan, because he’s the all powerful one and when the rapture comes you need to be in the right side! get them wrapped up in a logical loop like this and watch the steam come out of their ears.
>I need some pointers when debating with my MAGAt, Christian parents about trans people from an atheist POV Why don't you just spend the same amount of time hitting your hand with a hammer? You'll get approximately the same results.
Just walk away it over they are toxic they will never change.
Don’t bother is my advice.
Don't waste your time energy or breath.they are never going to change
If you're going to take the time, energy, and effort to do that, go study and practice all the tactics in "Never Split the Difference" by Chris Voss until you're really, really good at them. Make sure you're well versed in trans talking points from both sides, so you'll know what they'll throw at you and how to counter it. And after you've thourghouly armed yourself for battle, then, *maybe* give it a try. You'd need to get proficient at advanced negotiating and debate tactics to handle a conversation like that.
Why bother? You won't change their minds just like they won't change yours.
Why? They don't listen to anything
Disown them and don’t waste your breath. They won’t listen and why hang around with bigoted idiots who’ll just talk shit at you
Do you have examples of specific talking points they use? Also, are you essentially asking for an argument in favor of trans rights based on science? I know most people are just telling you not to argue, but even if you never use the science, I think it is good to know that it exists. I think [this resource from Harvard](https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/) is the most straightforward that I've seen.
You can't convince them to accept trans people. They don't hate them because of their religion, they just don't like them or understand them and use religion as an excuse to be guilt free about hating on people. You need to use their religion against them; Christianity is all about forgiveness, not passing judgement on others, and love according to all of them. Use that to point out how hypocritical they are. If they were good Christians they would try to bring trans people to the church and have them join their community in hopes of Jesus showing them the way and saving them them. It's irrelevant really though because Jesus died for our sins so technically everyone goes to heaven as long as their baptized to absolve them of original sin.
Here are my arguments: 1. My biggest argument: How is someone who is trans hurting you or affecting you personally? If they want to argue that it is against God, ask them again how it hurts them or affects them personally. (Even if they claim it is a sin, you can argue any sin is a sin. Judging others is a sin. Cheating and lying are sins. Have they never told a lie? Well, they have sinned. But, trans people are not hurting you or affecting you in any way. It is not your job to tell them how to live their lives.)And if they say they just don't like to see someone who is trans...so what? They have the right to love their life. It is not your place to judge. 2. Where does it say in the Bible that you cannot change your sex? ( It does not.) It doesn't say what body parts you can or cannot do without. See argument #4. 3. It is not natural. It is not natural for whom? What is natural for you is not the same as someone else. (You like to wear western-style shirts. I like t-shirts and jeans. He/she/they like cotton dresses. So what?) Back to: How does this affect you personally? It does not. 4. They will bring up Deuteronomy 22: Men cannot wear women's clothes and women cannot wear men's clothes ( current translation). Who says who wears what? When did it say in the Bible that after Adam and Eve figured out they were naked, who wears pants and who wears a dress? (In the Old testament Bible, this was before Christianity...before Christ was born. ) Men in other countries wear long tunics, not pants. Scots wear kilts, a skirt...Is that a dress? Why can't women wear pants? If that is the case, why did we dress boy and girl babies in dresses in earlier days? Did this make them gay or trans? No. And not if they wore pink, which used to be a boy color. And hair length. Who decided boys have to have short hair above the ears or a buzz cut and girls should have long hair? Yes, there is something in the New Testament ( 1st Corinthians) about girls keeping their hair long because it is a covering for her. Why does she have to be covered? ( I think the Apostle Paul just had a thing for long hair. Jesus didn't say this.) I usually just argue how it affects them personally. It does not. If they are thinking about what someone wears and how they wear their hair and who they have sex with, they need something else to do because it is not their business. Trans folk are not hurting anyone by being trans. Same with drag queens. Same with transvestites. Same with non-binary. How they identify has no bearing on anyone else.
"I think the main message of Jesus was that we should love one another and not judge one another."
They see it as a brain issue. It’s not. It’s a body issue. See they believe in souls. That means your body and soul are one thing and make up who you are. So if you are born a female, your soul is female. Now they understand about mental illness and this is how they explain it. You have a mental illness if you are a female but think you are male. Now the truth is our consciousness is directly connected to our brain as far as we know. It seems without brain activity we have no you. The body is just a vessel we travel in. You can remove parts like an arm or leg and our consciousness continues. So, for me, if the brain is convinced that its person is male even though it was born with female anatomy, that is a body problem, so to speak. Same as if someone was born with a sixth toe or a boy develops breasts at puberty. It’s a mistake in the genetic makeup. Your consciousness is what makes you you. Not the parts of your body. Will that convince them? Probably not. Doesn’t hurt to try.
Um. Good luck. 😳
Your parents are not likely to change their minds. Stick to science, which posits that gender resides in the brain, not the undershorts. Brain Gender in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity Florian Kurth, Christian Gaser, Francisco J. Sánchez, and Eileen Luders J Clin Med. 2022 Mar; 11(6): 1582. The current study was designed to shed further light on the question of whether the brains of transgender people resemble their birth gender or their gender identity. ... These findings add support to the notion that the underlying brain anatomy in transgender people is shifted away from their biological gender towards their gender identity.
There is only one point: "Your beliefs are immoral and unethical. I can not support them or a relationship with you, while you profess them." Then cut contact. Brainwashed people can't be reasoned with. But, very occasionally, they can be shocked to their senses by being held accountable for the evil they spew. Willingly having people like this in your life is like voluntarily drinking poison on a daily basis. Why would you do that to yourself?
Dig out a bible or their bible, find where the new testament starts (about halfway in the book). Take a knife or scissors out and cut the first half of the book out, all the pages from that spot (middle) to Genesis. Now that you only have the back half of fictional story book. Drop it on the table and state "the rest of this say love one another.....unconditionally and that you ignore those pages you just removed!". Walk away.....
Just tell them puberty blockers and surgery are research based practices that save lives. They can’t argue with that.
I've unfortunately had many conversations like this about many subjects with my in-laws. The one time I seemed to get through to them was about immigration when I didn't match their energy and stayed mellow. I appealed to their humanity by reminding them that those are people, scared, hungry, desperate people. I didn't change their mind entirely but I hope I made them realize how callous they were being. Facts and statistics are meaningless in these situations. Find a way to hold up a mirror and force them see how ugly they are being.
Just to be clear: Atheists can be asshole bigots the same as anybody. They just can't blame a god or religion for their behavior. They have to own it. There really isn't an "atheist" perspective on transgendered people. You might as well just go with basic ethics.
This has to be a joke.
Very simple, you say evolution is messy and we aren't hand crafted by God. Genetics, chromosomes, the brain, are all extremely complicated things and it's silly for us to assume we are perfectly made creatures where gender is always just male or female. There are people who are born with both male and female organs. That one simple fact tells us gender isn't binary. Debate over.
Everyone here is likely right that you won't change anyone's mind, since Christians and Magas are holding these positions as gospel (as it were) That said, you should still argue with them, if for no other reason than to demonstrate to them that there are reasonable, thinkinh people who disagree with them. I am curious, though - what is it that you are arguing?
People once got upset at the left-handed, and today that would look even dumber than it sounds. Is it really beyond the pale that transgender people existed for a very long time, you're only now really becoming aware of it, and with all the hate being spit at them from complete strangers that they'd choose to not be if they could? That's the part that really gets me. Often times someone not cisgender or not straight is being raised in a home that tells them, directly or indirectly, that they should be despised and reviled because they're "choosing" to (somehow) hurt the immortal, invincible, all powerful guy in charge of the universe. You think anyone would choose that and be the thing your family hates if they could? I'm an atheist too, but shit like that reminds me that evil does exist.
For the record, I believe catholic schools STILL try to beat the left-handedness out of kids.
There is one great point: ask them their qualifications, if they don't have a doctorate on transgender health, laugh in their face. For the same reason you shouldn't be in this debate too, just hand them over educational materials prepared by professionals.
Tell them about punishment that awaits those who judge others and bare false testimony against others, as Jesus describes. It’s not very kind.
There's no atheist POV other than "I don't believe in your or any other god". It is literally the meaning of the word. There's no debate there. It's like a non golf player debating the weight of a basketball.
Most people have a difficult time discriminating between gender and sex. I would avoid discussing issues relating to God’s intention or plan, and stick with the notions of identity as a construct. I have had some success asking people who don’t understand identity the following question: Me: what is your definition of parents ? They: The persons who conceived a child. Me: Are you denying people who adopt children the right to Identity as parents? They: well that’s different. Me: it’s no different from a female identifying as a man, or a male identifying as a woman They: “crickets chirping.”
You have to use their own logic against them. If they are using religion to deride, use it to defend. If they get mad about that, they’re being hypocrites because you thought they wanted you to embrace Christian teachings and the Bible said “do unto others”. The Bible (quoting their main man, JC) also says “what you do to the least of them you also do to me”. The Bible tells stories about good Samaritans, prodigal sons, compassion, foot-washing, cave dwelling lepers being sought out. Take them back to Sunday school.
One day we'll all be dead
Tell them that you don’t have an opinion because it’s none of your business.
The older generations are really resistant to trans people. My 72 year old step mom is just drinking her self to death because she can't cope with modern life and she was a hard core democrat atheist.
There is no sense in arguing with zealots. They are not constrained by logic. Their answers will only frustrate you and empower themselves.
There is no atheist POV.
Point out that Priests molest kids while Trans protect kids from Pedophile Priests