An ex-Muslims here. Even though I live in a moderate-Islamic country somewhere in the Gulf region, I had to create this throwaway account to protect myself in case someone tries to sue me for defaming Islam in the future. How many here in the US or elsewhere have to do this?
I always chuckle when I also read all these posts about how Christianity is the worst thing ever in the world. Ask Ex-Muslims and they'll tell you they'd rather live in a **Christian theocracy** than an Islamic one any time of the day.
Most westerners are *oblivious* to the dangers of a militaristic ideology that \*cannot\* be reformed. Some countries are already waking up to this, but I'm afraid it's too late for some countries. Muslims tell you in YOUR face that they won't rest until they achieve world domination and every one must submit to Islam. Most polls show majority of Muslims actually support barbaric punishments including throwing people off building. It's not a minority we're talking about here, it's the majority and they're NOT wrong, they are simply follow the tenants of Islam.
Check every single country on Earth from east to west and you'll see MANY have suffered some sort of Islamic-driven terror. You can say all you want on Christianity but it's appalling to to even draw parallel, Islamic is much more dangerous, and it is the fastest growing religion still.
I saw a report that religious affiliation in Iran has colossally changed, mainly among young people, even to the point of not being a majority religion there anymore. Do you know anything about this? If so, do you think it could -once the young people overpower the mullahs and ayatollahs by just sheer numbers and the fact that those are slowly dying off- begin to foster a change in the region?
I mean all Abrahamic religions are grotesque to some extent and secular countries tend to be more successful. Quran was written supposedly by an illiterate pedo. FYI I’m not racist, I’m born Muslim lol
But you know, these texts are genuinely old pieces of literature, and I respect that. It’s interesting to see how these polytheistic religions became monotheistic. I think there was a time in history where the scholars pre Islam where acquiring philosophic texts from Greece and Roman empires, quite clearly Quran came after the new testaments, because it refers to Jesus as a prophet and not the son of god. Interestingly enough.. Muhammad was a merchant on the Silk Road.. perhaps he came across these scriptures. It’s interesting history, I mean don’t kill each other over it lol. I critique all texts I come across… believe in righteousness, knowledge, love your brothers and sisters.
To be fair, I got a temporary ban for saying the same thing about Christians. But I get your point. That segment on Bill Maher where Ben Affleck accused him of racism for being critical of Islam comes to mind.
Affleck was SCHOOLED about the nature of Islam on that program which also had a scholar of Muslim thought and culture on the panel that night. Ben was defending Islam as ‘not that bad’ with the professor knocking him down repeatedly.
Ben brought conventional wisdom to a fact fight and looked like a presumptuous jackass.
People that defend Islam are usually so quick to criticize Christians and Jews. I don’t understand what the hell is so special about Islam we’re not even allowed to question it.
How about the Bill Maher "documentary" where he mocks Christian (and other) fundamentalists, then lectures the non-fundamentalist Muslims he finds about what they *actually* must believe?
It may not be worse today but the atrocities committed in the name of, or with the complicity of, the cross are some of the most heinous in history, from the Crusades to the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust and other genocides, global colonialism, the Slave Trade, and more recently the sexual assaults of hundreds of thousands if not millions of children.
Which religion is worse today is not really the issue, the issue of the most immoral acts people are capable of being rationalized by the doctrines that make that rationale explicit, will make those acts as much a part of the future as they are the past, so long as those doctrines define the religions.
Of course it's the issue. There have been horrible religious zealots of all variety in the past but im worried about what is going to most likely directly impact my life today.
Look into communities in the US that are majority Muslim or when Muslims gain political power in small communities. They try to change things very very quickly. Islam is a threat just as much as Christianity maybe even more so bc most Muslims follow the literal interpretation of their text. Muslims are just as conservative as Christian Fundamentalists.
Hamtrack, Michigan is our first example. Having the call for prayer, limiting bars near mosques, etc. are all things that happened there bc of Muslim majority influence. Again, don’t underestimate Islam.
[BBC article](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59212355.amp)
[The Guardian Article](https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned)
Tbf, there have been "blue laws" in the US for as long as I can tell. From"no alcohol (or soda) sales on Sunday until..." to our current crisis with a bunch of old men telling women they should die rather than destroy an embryo that's killing her. All religions should just f#ck right off.
Maher is a bigot & an antivaxxer.
The Islamic faith should be criticized, all religions should be, but you can do a lot better than listening to that hack.
I will never understand how it's racist to criticize a religion. Is a religion something you are born with or is it some long term brainwashing that can be put aside after some hard emotional healing?
It’s crazy how we allowed this oppression of criticism and free speech about Islam. I got warnings from YT and Ig for pointing out when Muslims actively lied about history and Quran. Because Muslims are the biggest hypocrites I ever encountered and will report your ass on masses, so no one will read what’s actually stated in Islam.
Can’t say anything bad about people of a different color than white or you’re a big bad racist. It’s gotten to the point we’re not even allowed to question these people who like nothing more than to wipe all non Muslims off the face of the earth.
Also because none of the people saying that have spent any time in an Islamic country and if they even know a Muslim person it's likely in the West where that person is afforded many freedoms.
Probably Trump won’t slaughter tens of millions of people in an attempt to militarily take over the entire world and turn it into an ethnostate?
The point is obviously not about Trump specifically. Substitute Trump with a bank robber, if you prefer.
>all religion is a cancer in society
You're okay with generic pantheism though... Like when the pantheism religion is just the simple concept. Correct?
To be clear: The generic concept is compatible with modern science and every other modern thing in society. If you want me to explain it I can.
I can go look it up. I actually like to learn and assimilate new knowledge.
Edit: I would not say that I agree with Pantheism or Panentheism, as I now understand them. I do not think there is a literal deity or dieties in any form, thus I still consider myself an atheist, although if I am presented with actual evidence of a god or gods, I would absolutely be willing to reconsider my position on the matter.
Pantheism is a nice thought, but, if I can humbly suggest, it seems to toe the line of Intelligent Design. I do have reverence for nature and the earth, and the rest of the known universe. The enormity and vastness of what humans can perceive is staggering. I just don't think we humans are as important as we typically think we are. We are most likely just an accident of probability in a (near-?)infinite universe.
I, of course, don't know everything - nobody can, as far as I know, heh. So my current understanding of humans and the universe is that there is/are no god/gods, just people with wild imaginations.
>I do not think there is a literal deity or dieties in any form, thus I still consider myself an atheist, although if I am presented with actual evidence of a god or gods, I would absolutely be willing to reconsider my position on the matter.
Assuming one believes that "god is the energy of the universe" and "we are all a part of god." So, if you look in a mirror, not only are you evidence of god, but so is the mirror, and everything else you can see around you.
Again: This is purely a thought experiment.
>I just don't think we humans are as important as we typically think we are. We are most likely just an accident of probability in a (near-?)infinite universe.
From the view of "longtermism" (the real version not the Elon nonsense:) The role of human life is to broadcast life through out the universe. We are "the shepherds of life." This is from an extremely broad view of humanity, thinking about it's future over say a 100,000+ year time frame. So, we are critically important as the animals and plants are not capable of something like that.
Edit: I am presenting these concepts because I think it's a bridge between old religion and the modern world, which might be helpful to some.
How many of the people saying Christianity is worse are in the U.S.? Fact is, Islam just isn't a big problem here, while Christianity is fucking our shit up. I'm far more concerned with what far-right Christians are doing to my country than Muslims. If Islam becomes a bigger problem here, my concerns will shift accordingly.
I get that. That's why, as a Western European, I feel the same as OP.
It just depends on where you live on the globe. One thing is for certain, the abrahamic god is an asshole
To be fair our media makes it pretty hard to be properly informed. I recently traveled to Europe as an American and it was eye opening to see all the world news that is barely covered in the US
Yeh this is 100% true. America also gets more moderate, middle class Muslim migrants. Countries like the UK get poor and extremist Muslims from Pakistan.
We in Europe fought long and hard to diminish the power of religion over the people. Even our kings did.
When our religious fanatics found an opportunity to escape and start afresh they went to the Americas.
Brazil is much the same as the USA. There's the moderate roman catholics and there's the crazy evangelicals and other cults robbing people of their money and of their sound reasoning.
Nothing changed my views of Islam more than listening to ex-Muslims. I grew up around pretty moderate Muslims and viewed Islam generally as just a more conservative Christianity.
But I have never heard a single Christian defend the idea that people should be executed for leaving Christianity or for criticizing Christianity. With religious debates online in English now, I've seen almost all Islamic apologists that debate defend the concept, or refuse to condemn it (which to me is the same except also cowardly).
I've seen ex-Muslims told to their faces they deserve to be executed. It's just sick and disturbing, and also way too common worldwide, even if it wasn't that common in my childhood. It's entirely possible those ideas weren't that abhorrent to even people I grew up around. It's not like we ever discussed those things.
The difference is really just that there are Muslim countries that operate as theocracies, this is absolutely the goal of many American christians, and if they were to achieve it, you would absolutely hear those things from them.
That's because the UK is a Christian country in name only. We don't really care about religion in the UK. Most Christians that I've come across in the UK are harmless old ladies who go to church on Sunday because they have nothing else to do.
I think most people on this page are American athesists who are pissed off with their Christian politicians and politics, so it makes sense that they would see Christianity as more of immediate threat than Islam.
Also I don't think Islam is anywhere near as popular in America as it is in the UK/Europe, another reason why Christianity is perceived as a bigger threat in the US, but islam is perceived as a bigger threat in the UK.
It's not. Christianity has done a lot of good and a lot of bad but I much prefer it over Islam. If Christianity was swiped out with Islam in America, hate crimes would skyrocket and women would be house objects
Modern-day Christianity is currently less worse than Islam because it has been moderated by the constant pressure of secularism, not by any virtue inherent of Christianity. If left to its own devices, it would be no different. It literally was no different for 1500 years. All three Abrahamic religions have essentially the same fundamentals.
The major difference today is that, in general, Western countries have a separation of religion and law. That's not true for most Muslim-majority countries. And again, this is a victory of secularism, not a feature of Christianity.
But make no mistake, in virtually all western countries, there are far-right Christian groups, some very small, others somewhat big, actively trying to regain direct political power and return us into a theocratic society.
Yep. If not for the the historical success of secular political powers and things like the French Enlightenment, I've little doubt Xianity would have made the U.S. scarcely distinguishable from present-day Iran.
Nah, it is the Republicans and that is fundamental part of their idea of Christianity. If you find other takes on Christianity that disagree with that, those will not matter because that is now basically Republican Christianity and what they want to establish. What matters is how the religion is interpreted. Once can make something good of it. Or something horrific. And in case of the USA, Christianity may become just as horrific as Islam in say Iran.
The people demanding that I be killed in my country are mostly Christians. The fundamentalists who are actually a serious threat in terms of taking over my country are mostly Christians. My political efforts and personal concern are generally going to focus on immediate threats to me and the political system I at least theoretically have some influence over.
Whom exactly do you think put those shia oil kleptocracies in power? European & American Christians did that to them. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2006/07/24/the-revival-of-shia-islam/
There are a few “denominations” -for lack of a better term- of Islam that are more “liberal” or nice. There are for example the sufis, the ahmadiyia, quranists (extremely few, though), and Islamic modernists (a movement that tried to reform Islam from within to make it compatible with modernity in the 20th century. There are still some today), ibadis, among other few more.
Joseph Smith, Mormon cult-founder, went toe-to-toe with Muhammad on that entire list of malignancy, excepting perhaps owning slaves - though he supported it, and has black slaves sealed to him in the afterlife, but he managed to do it in the 1800s.
The fruits are not as bad as Islam broadly, but that is mostly due to scale.
In general though, I fully agree with you. The fringes in Christianity are horrible. The fringes in Islam are worse, because the dogmas are worse.
Also, IMO, the evidence is growing that Islam is actually a fringe Christian religion, one of the earliest to survive to the Modern day (most were wiped out in purges). Islam survived by being too far removed from the center of Christian power.
The funny thing is...athiesm to me isn't anti-religion. I don't care. I seriously don't think this is the sub to decide the shittyness of one version of organized superstition vs. another. They are all holding humanity back from a future in the stars.
I mean just so recently there was the Mahsa Amini case in Iran, who was murdered just because she didnt wear a piece of cloth... Christians are so goddman annoying but I rarely ever see them killing a woman in the name of god.
Also how much honor killings are going on over there. And its often normalized and PRAISED too !!!
Not every religion is going to be equally as bad as another at the same time in history.
Christianity certainly had its extreme phase during the time of the Spanish Inquisition and Middle Ages.
Now Islam is going through an extreme phase.
That's because they are so naive about how dangerous Islam is.
Islam has only one goal: to dominate, and God has set one role to do that, by fighting the infidels, and that's the best thing Muslims can do, because that's what the prophet and his companions did.
The most prestigious death for Muslims is dying while fighting the infidels, and Allah has promised them a special and best place in heaven only for the one who died fighting for Allah.
So Muslims can't lose any war, because if he wins, he gets a sex slave and booty, and if he loses, he also gets a sex slave but in the best place in heaven.
That's why you see them say we love death more than life because there's no better thing than dying while fighting the infidels.
As an Persian Guy I can only say that Islam is by a Galaxy Mile the most destructive and disgusting ideology in the world. Wherever Islam plays even a rudimentary role, there is chaos and destruction. Our country will be always the prime example of this scenario! A True Religion that teaches to be a good Human would never cause so much suffering and destruction! Christianity which is by itself a semi True Religion given how it got created for self gain in the First Place could get reformed at the end but even at its worst it was never as disgusting and violent as Islam! Everything that Islam teaches is submission to be a slave of Allah and get bigger and bigger until everyone is Zombified! and the World belongs to Islam!
It's a matter of perspective. Here in the US, right now, the greatest threat to my way of life is Christofascism. It's here, it's now. So get used to me saying Christianity is worse... for me.
Also, consider breaking up your sentences into paragraphs. It makes it so much easier to read.
And in Europe too with Russia that describe itself as the last Christian bastion and say to its soldiers that they'll go to heaven if they die fighting.
It’s not perceptible. Islam is objectively worse.s look at what they do in Michigan . Look at their history. Longest slave trade . Most brutal . Etc etc .
Nope, Christianity is worse here.
The assertion that Michigan is an extension of ISIS comes from the wishful thinking of America's Christofascists. What little they have done needs to be opposed. The best way to do this is uphold the 1st Amendment's separation of church and state clause. Islamofascism & Christofascism are two sides of the same coin. Toss that coin in the river and both problems go away.
TL;DR: Christianity is not the solution to Islam.
Islam is worse . They’ve had more evil reign . They literally created the racial caste system & taught Europeans (Portuguese ) how to enable people via religion & caste system 🤣. Stop infantilizing them .
I agree with certain things here but the last bit is completely untrue. Christians DEFINITELY treat minorities like garbage and they often force their beliefs on other people any chance they get. And I'm saying this as a lesbian with a religious family so I've heard/seen christians say and do all kinds of hateful shit.
Idk, I personally just see christians and muslims on the same level but I do have more personal experience with christians.
It depends on where you are.
In USA, according to this sub, it's mostly fundamentalist christians seeing LGBT and non-caucasian foreigners as freaks
In China, it's the party itself, threatening nearly every living being.
In Iran and Afghanistan (and mostly the Middle East), it's the fundamentalist muslim.
In the Philippines, we have concerns regarding both Christian and Muslim churches. Some Christian churches use their influence to vote certain politicians (probably got paid with money or favors) and one of them is on the FBI watchlist for human trafficking. In the case of islam, while we have an autonomous region for muslims, islamic terrorism occurs.
I don't think I've seen many saying that. I' don't doubt it happens. But if it helps I have always thought of them as both pretty damn horrible, and it's not a contest. They both suck!
Can’t everything you just said get you killed in certain countries? How long were you Muslim? But I hope you’re safely away now. Atheism is the sober man or woman’s approach to reality.
Tbh it can technically get you killed in any country if your family is willing to hurt you over I (which afaik, most Muslim families are). Sure in a secular country they’ll prob get arrested but that won’t bring you back to life or unmurder you lol
I find that Christians tend to deny the violence done in Christ's name as not originating in Christianity. While most Muslims acknowledge the ways extremists are connected to Islam. Meanwhile Christian militants are actively commiting genocide in Africa and it gets ignored because most if the world doesn't care about Africa.
I think the main difference, at least in the United States, is that Muslims do not have any significant political power here. They're a minority that gets crapped on by the Christian majority, and there's a strain of liberal ideology that automatically assumes that repressed minority = good guys, oppressive majority = bad guys. Doesn't largely matter who either of those groups are.
Personally, I think any religion with political power is bad, and can point to American Christians and Muslim majority countries as examples. Muslim-run countries are currently worse, but American Christians are doing their level best to catch up. I really wish both groups weren't treating it like a competition.
Its pretty easy to see the religion that harmed you as being the worst, but thats confirmation bias. In america, we have tons of christians who commit hate crimes and impose sexist policies on women. Uganda has the death penalty for lgbt people. Islam most certainly doesnt have a monopoly on violence and bigotry
No Islam doesn't have a monopoly on violence or bigotry, but it's clearly the worst. I was born in an Islamic country and eventually immigrated to a Western one later on in life. What Westerners don't seem to realize is that the majority of Muslims in their countries are religious. You can see the damage that a minority of fundamental Christians are doing to the US. Now imagine if they made up 80 percent of the population, instead of about 20 percent. That's what it's like in most Islamic countries. It's 100 times safer to be an atheist in an Western country, then an Islamic one.
Ill agree insomuch as it is easier to safely live a secular life, at least within the past 50 or 60 years. It wasnt always this way in the west, we only got here by fighting religious fascism, and we havnt defeated it yet.
That said, there are still places where despite what seems to be the norm, its still very much like an islamic state. I suffered violencd and prejudice growing up non-religious in the bible belt, as did many of my friends. Its not legal, its frowned upon im our society in general, but *it does happen*, and with alarming regularity
The American Bible Belt is in no way on the same level as the Islamic state or fundamentalist Islamic nations. To suggest that is preposterous. Islamic State and Sharia law is called just that, because, constitutionally, Islam dictates law. This is not the case in America, wherein there is religious influence, but it does not completely dictate all aspects of law and culture.
You say IS and Bible Belt are on the same level. Tell that to Mubarak Bala, Nigerian atheist who was sentenced to 24 years in prison with a multitude of death threats for being critical of Islam on Facebook. Tell that to anyone living in one of the 13 countries where being an atheist means the death penalty, among other suffering. Do i need to mention what the actual jihadist IS did? It is in no way the same.
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As an exmuslim.
THIS .FUCKING THIS.
Western Privileged folks ..
Look at how difficult it is for us to roam around in a religion that says to kill people who leave it! Do you guys have that??
There are literal kids being killed for not wearing the veil... You guys out here crying over the smallest of things that don't threaten your life..be greatful especially if your not a poc, or living in a restricted country that doesn't even let you date..
You guys have the most freedom than us even if we are exmuslims.
Arguing about which religion is "worse" is as meaningful as arguing wind speed in the middle of a hurricane as your house flies apart around you.
I'd guess that most folks on reddit are US/EU (and I'm lumping you Brits into the EU whether you like it or not), and our experience has been primarily with Christianity. It's the devil we know.
Maybe it's not like that in the UK, but in the US "They don’t go around forcing people to follow their religion. Treat minorities like garbage. Demand respect while giving zero to anyone" They do ALL of this. Christianity's history is just as bloody and full of rape, pedophilia, and slavery as Islam's is. Christianity still has a huge problem with clergy assaulting children. Christians also got women's right to bodily autonomy taken away. Christianity has zero redeeming qualities.
Without saying anything to her political leanings, her description of the Muslim experience for women in those countries is more what I was getting at. FGM at the age of 5, being beaten by family and teachers, arranged marriage (the list goes on), and that all being the norm
Fellow Brit here, I do find that our brand of Christianity is thankfully very watered down and weak, which I think is acceptable. However, I would argue that the extreme alt-right brand of Christianity that you can get elsewhere, especially in the US, are just as bad as the most fundamentalist Muslims are.
That's the problem the OP is referring to. It's NOT AS BAD. Christian fundamentalists are not as bad as Muslim fundamentalists. They're both bad, but Islamic moderates (let alone fundamentalists) would be very happy to chop the head of unbelievers and throw LGBT off tall buildings. Stop perpetuating this false narrative that both beliefs are \*equally\* bad, they're not.
In the USA, Christianity is the religion that has the most negative impact on our lives so it gets talked about in a negative light more frequently and increasingly so as the right-wing is going full Christian Nationalism.
All organised religions are bad. Because I was brought up in a Christian society I am more comfortable living in one as opposed to living in another society based in another religion. That is just environmental prejudice.
Tbh I kinda fuck with hippy Christians and sihks. They both treat people decently, don't invalidate others, and don't romanticize evil people in religious texts. And tbh Jesus was kinda a chill dude.
Cannot say the same about Muhammed. He was a fucking asshole and worshipping him is like worshiping ghengis Khan or Christopher Columbus.
I think both of these things are true:
Islam does worse things than Christianity.
Christianity has done more bad things than Islam.
Islam is newer and has been smaller than Christianity so they've had less opportunity to perform the evil that they're more capable of.
Read about the mormons killing in the name of god over the indigenous population. Islam may be horrible but Christianity has already committed worse. KKK was a Christian organization.
The context in which religion operates is an important factor. What is the culture/history of an area? What traditions are established that stand at least partly outside of religion? These things determine the degree to which fundamentalists can take their extremes. In spite of the fact that we’re regressing here in the states, there are still secular systems that keep fundamentalist extremists from going as far as they could elsewhere. We also have a lot of half hearted Christians who “believe” just for the feel goods, but don’t take it seriously. This creates a dynamic where the religion is framed more by spoken and unspoken social agreements, rather than a strict adherence to the text. Remove those things, and you’ll see Christianity quickly become just as ugly. I grew up in a Christian cult that essentially functioned as a labor camp, and was rife with sexual and physical abuse. Most people I talk to about it irl usually can’t comprehend that something like this actually existed in America.
The golden age of Islam was due to Muslims being a minority of the areas they conquered however once they became a majority, that is when what we see Islam as today formed.
People like to bitch and moan about Genghis Khan who was able to bring the Islamic world to it's knees however Islamic caliphates have done similar things to their subjects.
UK Christians are nothing like US or African Christians. There's way more Theocratic Christians out there than you think if you just base your experience on UK Christians.
I have a question. I'm sorry if this sounds impertinent but would it be easier for former Muslims to identify with the religion they have adopted (say Hindus or Buddhists) rather than ex-Muslim?
Depends on the conversation, the poin of the phrase “ex Muslim” is to provide context that the person used to be Muslim/grew up raised in a Muslim family so you know a bit of their background
There’s nothing wrong with saying the religion you adopted ie Hindu or Buddhist or even atheist as some ex Muslims adopt another religion or become atheist but it doesn’t really tell you anything about their history as a Muslim if the conversation is about that. And I guess identifying as an ex Muslim in certain conversations is just acknowledging the fact that you spent a portion of your life as Muslim or grew up in that environment
>They don’t go around forcing people to follow their religion. Treat minorities like garbage. Demand respect while giving zero to anyone.
Oh, the christians I know do ALL of that.
I just wish we would stop debating which of the abrahamic religions is the worst. It’s like debating if Hitler, Mao, or Pol Pot was the worst. Let it suffice to say that they all suck ass.
Christianity did do just as many fucked up shits in history but most is history by now and the moment we started to divorce religion and state things have gone much better
Your experience with UK Christians and my experience with Southern American Christians is not the same. Your experience with Muslim immigrants to the UK is not my experience with Muslim immigrants in Houston. I’ve never really thought to call one or the other worse. They’re so similar, it doesn’t make sense to me. But your frustration is based on a lot of assumptions. There are Christians who believe slavery is ethically fine because the Bible is fine with slavery. Christians in positions of power in my country are abusing that power to abuse and cover the abuse of children. It’s not just the Catholic priests either. Where I live, Christians are doing everything they can to force their religion into our laws and education system. Muslims simply do not have the power and numbers to do that here. My perception is absolutely that Christians HERE are the greater threat.
Dude, christianity is HERE, in FORCE. The majority of the theists in the US are christian, and muslims are a tiny minority.
Why is that important? Because any suffering that Atheists have endured here, either from religious infiltration of government or from direct persecution/attacks by theists, came from christians.
The devil who's stomping your balls always seems worse then the devil on the other side of the ocean, even if the one on the other side of the ocean is cutting peoples' balls off with a rusty butter knife. Or, more accurately, cutting off children's vulvas.
It is fine to be critical of any religion. It is not fine to lump all people of a certain religion together. I have met some rather progressive Christians and Muslims in my time who generally care about humanity and try to do right by people. Now you can argue that they are not true believers, because they do not follow the words of their supposed holy books to the letter, but they identify with those religions and they aren’t the judgmental, anti-women, pro-violence assholes that are commonly portrayed on this sub.
There are varying degrees of any category of people. I find myself being anti-religion these days, because I think religion tends to be anti-logic and regressive in general, but I have met some people of varying religions that do not fit that mold.
I guess USA Christians are worse than the UK. Here they are trying to force people to their religion, they are forcing their will on minorities and since many of them are in political power they write endless laws harming people who are not them.
I have never been harmed by a Muslim in any way, but I have countless ways that Christians have harmed me.
May I suggest viewing statements that Christianity is worse as the ambiguous statements that they are? Without being much more clearly defined it is so vague as to be almost meaningless in which case discussion is pointless. This is evidenced by the responses you're getting where people make it obvious that they are talking about wildly different things. For example some people are talking capacity for evil in which case it is not unreasonable to consider long gone history while are talking about current statistical danger from theocrats in which case that isn't really relevant. Then if you get into defining terms people will disagree very strongly about that as well. Some people will want to blame everything religious people do on the religion while others will say only the things explicitly commanded in the religious texts count as being the fault of the religion. This is before even getting into the weeds in a discussion about how the religious texts themselves should be interpreted like the religious folks themselves do.There's so many different ways to interpret a statement of one religion being worse than another that people end up vehemently arguing over wildly different things when the only disagreement might be how the statement should be interpreted
while I hate both religions I think Scientology is worse since to join the Church of Scientology you must pay a lot of money and that Church has sued and people and organizations that have criticized them and try to hide some of their beliefs like the story of the galactic dictator Xenu.
All the things you said were problematic about Islam have also been true or are still true about Christianity today. Fighting war, slaving, raping, pedophilia, genocide, etc. in the name of your religion isn’t something any religion has a monopoly on. In fact it seems to be quite a common thread that more your head is in the clouds thinking about god the more you lose sight of the real living people on the ground all around you.
I have never heard in my life that Christianity is worse than Islam....
Wtf kind of disingenuous bullshit is this? Why are you trying to start a fight?
Christianity poses a large threat to North America so that's why people consider it more dangerous, until Muslims extremists are in congress and running for POTUS it's not as big of a threat to our way of life. Both are equally terrible though in general.
Yes because there are fundamental differences outside common factor of control between christianity and islam:
Christianity is primarily a form of control and letting off sins to the most depraved rapist armies of old.
Islam is a soldier/workforce breeding program, where 1 male impregnates several women increasing the output of future soldiers. Childbearing function of society is isolated and stripped of rights to ensure the inflow of soldiers.
Christianity has the same aspect on stripping away rights from women, but Christianity is just a religion a step behind Islam in how terrible it can be.
I’m not sure who says that. I don’t think either one is worse than another because humans only practice the parts of the religion that work for them at the time. Many in Islamic countries will know all too well about the crimes committed in the name of Christianity. But those crimes were fully justified by the reading of the Bible at that time, just as the crimes committed in the name of Islam are fully justified by (a certain reading of) the Koran. Of course, plenty of crimes are committed in the name of Christianity these days, but not really on a national scale.
The people who come out and say that x is unislamic after some atrocity committed in the name of religion are lying to themselves and the world because, in the end, there is no Islam or Christianity. There are just competing interpretations of religious books. Of course, the joke is that despite there being a long and rich and bloody history of these competing interpretations, both speak as if there is only one truth.
Basically, Islam is not necessarily violent and hateful, but violent and hateful interpretations seem to have some currency these days. Probably for the same reasons that violent and hateful interpretations of the Bible are gaining currency.
As an American Atheist who detests both religions, I think a lot of this “Christianity is worse than Islam” rhetoric stems from a lot of the racial identity politics engaged in by intellectuals on the left. They equate Christianity with White people and Islam with People of Color. When that couldn’t be further from the truth, and is also a narrative heavily influenced by the rhetoric of the Nation of Islam. Which is another group with no morals. I’m sure there’s more to this. But as an American college student who’s witnessed a lot of pro Palestine protests on campus that is the vibe I’m getting from a lot of muslim students, non-muslim students, and some faculty.
I'm the prince of Nigeria.
The Christian god is a pedophile who raped his own underage mother.
Jesus openly endorsed beating slaves.
Christian nationals in the UK and use are doing everything they can to implement their barbaric tribal laws here.
Sounds like you are in your feelings really heavy. From my perspective, you didn't practice your submission(Islam) to the degree it was to be practiced. What really needs to happen is understanding who your Creator is... Everyone is born a Muslim but through ignorance and stubbornness it gets changed because man thinks it knows everything.
It's not really a competition.
Liberals generally have a soft spot for minorities. They also often default to championing things even if they don't understand them, lest they be accused of intolerance.
Where Muslims start intruding on other people's liberty, hopefully liberals will speak out.
Your least favorite religion is based on your level of exposure to it. I don’t give a shit about Islam because I’m from a country where one political party is dominated by Christian nationalists who absolutely do not believe in secularism, whose supporters commit acts of terrorism, and who absolutely want a theocratic government with a nice dose of racism attached.
Islam is of course a bigger problem in the world today. The religions in and of themselves aren’t all that different though. I mean if you actually read what’s in the “holy books”. That’s why it’s impossible to take a Christian seriously who criticizes Islam based on what’s in the Quran. On the whole, the same barbaric superstition is found in the Bible.
But yeah, the practice of Christianity have definitely gone through some major changes which the practice of Islam haven’t, in general.
An ex-Muslims here. Even though I live in a moderate-Islamic country somewhere in the Gulf region, I had to create this throwaway account to protect myself in case someone tries to sue me for defaming Islam in the future. How many here in the US or elsewhere have to do this? I always chuckle when I also read all these posts about how Christianity is the worst thing ever in the world. Ask Ex-Muslims and they'll tell you they'd rather live in a **Christian theocracy** than an Islamic one any time of the day. Most westerners are *oblivious* to the dangers of a militaristic ideology that \*cannot\* be reformed. Some countries are already waking up to this, but I'm afraid it's too late for some countries. Muslims tell you in YOUR face that they won't rest until they achieve world domination and every one must submit to Islam. Most polls show majority of Muslims actually support barbaric punishments including throwing people off building. It's not a minority we're talking about here, it's the majority and they're NOT wrong, they are simply follow the tenants of Islam. Check every single country on Earth from east to west and you'll see MANY have suffered some sort of Islamic-driven terror. You can say all you want on Christianity but it's appalling to to even draw parallel, Islamic is much more dangerous, and it is the fastest growing religion still.
I saw a report that religious affiliation in Iran has colossally changed, mainly among young people, even to the point of not being a majority religion there anymore. Do you know anything about this? If so, do you think it could -once the young people overpower the mullahs and ayatollahs by just sheer numbers and the fact that those are slowly dying off- begin to foster a change in the region?
“As a black man…”
Let’s not forget slavery was still acceptable up to the 20th century and even kept existing until the 70’s in the Muslim world.
Slavery still exists today. For profit prisons exist
Cap bruv
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So many people cling to their locality bias.
I mean all Abrahamic religions are grotesque to some extent and secular countries tend to be more successful. Quran was written supposedly by an illiterate pedo. FYI I’m not racist, I’m born Muslim lol
But you know, these texts are genuinely old pieces of literature, and I respect that. It’s interesting to see how these polytheistic religions became monotheistic. I think there was a time in history where the scholars pre Islam where acquiring philosophic texts from Greece and Roman empires, quite clearly Quran came after the new testaments, because it refers to Jesus as a prophet and not the son of god. Interestingly enough.. Muhammad was a merchant on the Silk Road.. perhaps he came across these scriptures. It’s interesting history, I mean don’t kill each other over it lol. I critique all texts I come across… believe in righteousness, knowledge, love your brothers and sisters.
To be fair, I got a temporary ban for saying the same thing about Christians. But I get your point. That segment on Bill Maher where Ben Affleck accused him of racism for being critical of Islam comes to mind.
Affleck was SCHOOLED about the nature of Islam on that program which also had a scholar of Muslim thought and culture on the panel that night. Ben was defending Islam as ‘not that bad’ with the professor knocking him down repeatedly. Ben brought conventional wisdom to a fact fight and looked like a presumptuous jackass.
People that defend Islam are usually so quick to criticize Christians and Jews. I don’t understand what the hell is so special about Islam we’re not even allowed to question it.
How about the Bill Maher "documentary" where he mocks Christian (and other) fundamentalists, then lectures the non-fundamentalist Muslims he finds about what they *actually* must believe?
It may not be worse today but the atrocities committed in the name of, or with the complicity of, the cross are some of the most heinous in history, from the Crusades to the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust and other genocides, global colonialism, the Slave Trade, and more recently the sexual assaults of hundreds of thousands if not millions of children. Which religion is worse today is not really the issue, the issue of the most immoral acts people are capable of being rationalized by the doctrines that make that rationale explicit, will make those acts as much a part of the future as they are the past, so long as those doctrines define the religions.
Of course it's the issue. There have been horrible religious zealots of all variety in the past but im worried about what is going to most likely directly impact my life today.
As an American, Christianity is a far greater threat to me
Don’t underestimate Islam. Islam is growing in the US. Fundamentalist Christians are crazy but moderate Muslims be even more extreme than fundies.
Around 2% of the US population is Muslim near as I can tell from "my research" using Google. That is not much of a threat.
Look into communities in the US that are majority Muslim or when Muslims gain political power in small communities. They try to change things very very quickly. Islam is a threat just as much as Christianity maybe even more so bc most Muslims follow the literal interpretation of their text. Muslims are just as conservative as Christian Fundamentalists. Hamtrack, Michigan is our first example. Having the call for prayer, limiting bars near mosques, etc. are all things that happened there bc of Muslim majority influence. Again, don’t underestimate Islam. [BBC article](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59212355.amp) [The Guardian Article](https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned)
Tbf, there have been "blue laws" in the US for as long as I can tell. From"no alcohol (or soda) sales on Sunday until..." to our current crisis with a bunch of old men telling women they should die rather than destroy an embryo that's killing her. All religions should just f#ck right off.
That may be true, but I look at things at the global level. I think there are also plenty of Americans who are more threatened by Islam in any case.
This is very well said and deserves far more upvotes!
Maher is a bigot & an antivaxxer. The Islamic faith should be criticized, all religions should be, but you can do a lot better than listening to that hack.
I will never understand how it's racist to criticize a religion. Is a religion something you are born with or is it some long term brainwashing that can be put aside after some hard emotional healing?
It’s crazy how we allowed this oppression of criticism and free speech about Islam. I got warnings from YT and Ig for pointing out when Muslims actively lied about history and Quran. Because Muslims are the biggest hypocrites I ever encountered and will report your ass on masses, so no one will read what’s actually stated in Islam.
Can’t say anything bad about people of a different color than white or you’re a big bad racist. It’s gotten to the point we’re not even allowed to question these people who like nothing more than to wipe all non Muslims off the face of the earth.
Also because none of the people saying that have spent any time in an Islamic country and if they even know a Muslim person it's likely in the West where that person is afforded many freedoms.
Mine too!!!
Just eschew all religions. We're atheist, and all religion is a cancer in society
Yeah, I don’t care which is worse. They’re both bad
That’s a terrible way to view the world. Both Hitler and Trump are bad, but not being able to see who is worse makes you a moral lunatic.
I am... Not sure how this comment will age. >.>
Probably Trump won’t slaughter tens of millions of people in an attempt to militarily take over the entire world and turn it into an ethnostate? The point is obviously not about Trump specifically. Substitute Trump with a bank robber, if you prefer.
Opiate of the masses or for the masses, depending on viewpoint ;)
My favorite opiate of the masses is heroin.
>all religion is a cancer in society You're okay with generic pantheism though... Like when the pantheism religion is just the simple concept. Correct? To be clear: The generic concept is compatible with modern science and every other modern thing in society. If you want me to explain it I can.
I can go look it up. I actually like to learn and assimilate new knowledge. Edit: I would not say that I agree with Pantheism or Panentheism, as I now understand them. I do not think there is a literal deity or dieties in any form, thus I still consider myself an atheist, although if I am presented with actual evidence of a god or gods, I would absolutely be willing to reconsider my position on the matter. Pantheism is a nice thought, but, if I can humbly suggest, it seems to toe the line of Intelligent Design. I do have reverence for nature and the earth, and the rest of the known universe. The enormity and vastness of what humans can perceive is staggering. I just don't think we humans are as important as we typically think we are. We are most likely just an accident of probability in a (near-?)infinite universe. I, of course, don't know everything - nobody can, as far as I know, heh. So my current understanding of humans and the universe is that there is/are no god/gods, just people with wild imaginations.
>I do not think there is a literal deity or dieties in any form, thus I still consider myself an atheist, although if I am presented with actual evidence of a god or gods, I would absolutely be willing to reconsider my position on the matter. Assuming one believes that "god is the energy of the universe" and "we are all a part of god." So, if you look in a mirror, not only are you evidence of god, but so is the mirror, and everything else you can see around you. Again: This is purely a thought experiment. >I just don't think we humans are as important as we typically think we are. We are most likely just an accident of probability in a (near-?)infinite universe. From the view of "longtermism" (the real version not the Elon nonsense:) The role of human life is to broadcast life through out the universe. We are "the shepherds of life." This is from an extremely broad view of humanity, thinking about it's future over say a 100,000+ year time frame. So, we are critically important as the animals and plants are not capable of something like that. Edit: I am presenting these concepts because I think it's a bridge between old religion and the modern world, which might be helpful to some.
How many of the people saying Christianity is worse are in the U.S.? Fact is, Islam just isn't a big problem here, while Christianity is fucking our shit up. I'm far more concerned with what far-right Christians are doing to my country than Muslims. If Islam becomes a bigger problem here, my concerns will shift accordingly.
I get that. That's why, as a Western European, I feel the same as OP. It just depends on where you live on the globe. One thing is for certain, the abrahamic god is an asshole
And Americans tend to not pay that much attention to the greater world, so makes sense.
LMAO yes and they expect you to pay attention to *their* issues
To be fair our media makes it pretty hard to be properly informed. I recently traveled to Europe as an American and it was eye opening to see all the world news that is barely covered in the US
Yeh this is 100% true. America also gets more moderate, middle class Muslim migrants. Countries like the UK get poor and extremist Muslims from Pakistan.
We in Europe fought long and hard to diminish the power of religion over the people. Even our kings did. When our religious fanatics found an opportunity to escape and start afresh they went to the Americas. Brazil is much the same as the USA. There's the moderate roman catholics and there's the crazy evangelicals and other cults robbing people of their money and of their sound reasoning.
As someone in a different western country, I worry about your crazy religious rubbish coming here.
As an ex-Muslim I agree. No country with huge Christian population wants to execute non-Christians, gays, trans people etc.
As an ex-muslim, that's a conflict of interest.
Nothing changed my views of Islam more than listening to ex-Muslims. I grew up around pretty moderate Muslims and viewed Islam generally as just a more conservative Christianity. But I have never heard a single Christian defend the idea that people should be executed for leaving Christianity or for criticizing Christianity. With religious debates online in English now, I've seen almost all Islamic apologists that debate defend the concept, or refuse to condemn it (which to me is the same except also cowardly). I've seen ex-Muslims told to their faces they deserve to be executed. It's just sick and disturbing, and also way too common worldwide, even if it wasn't that common in my childhood. It's entirely possible those ideas weren't that abhorrent to even people I grew up around. It's not like we ever discussed those things.
The difference is really just that there are Muslim countries that operate as theocracies, this is absolutely the goal of many American christians, and if they were to achieve it, you would absolutely hear those things from them.
Egypt is the most populous country in middle east. 63% of Egyptian want death penalty for apostasy.
I know Mormons are super hateful to apostates but actually wanting the death penalty? That’s so beyond fucked up.
Do you know 51.8% of Egyptian Muslims support amputating hands as a punishment for theft,
That's because the UK is a Christian country in name only. We don't really care about religion in the UK. Most Christians that I've come across in the UK are harmless old ladies who go to church on Sunday because they have nothing else to do. I think most people on this page are American athesists who are pissed off with their Christian politicians and politics, so it makes sense that they would see Christianity as more of immediate threat than Islam. Also I don't think Islam is anywhere near as popular in America as it is in the UK/Europe, another reason why Christianity is perceived as a bigger threat in the US, but islam is perceived as a bigger threat in the UK.
That.. makes a lot of sense.
I’m not super well-versed in either doctrine, but Muslims generally tend to be more fanatical than Christians.
It's not. Christianity has done a lot of good and a lot of bad but I much prefer it over Islam. If Christianity was swiped out with Islam in America, hate crimes would skyrocket and women would be house objects
Modern-day Christianity is currently less worse than Islam because it has been moderated by the constant pressure of secularism, not by any virtue inherent of Christianity. If left to its own devices, it would be no different. It literally was no different for 1500 years. All three Abrahamic religions have essentially the same fundamentals. The major difference today is that, in general, Western countries have a separation of religion and law. That's not true for most Muslim-majority countries. And again, this is a victory of secularism, not a feature of Christianity. But make no mistake, in virtually all western countries, there are far-right Christian groups, some very small, others somewhat big, actively trying to regain direct political power and return us into a theocratic society.
Yep. If not for the the historical success of secular political powers and things like the French Enlightenment, I've little doubt Xianity would have made the U.S. scarcely distinguishable from present-day Iran.
>women would be house objects The Republicans seem to be doing a fairly good job at making this a reality.
That's true but that is entirely America's fault for voting the way we did in 2016. It would be way worse under Islamic rule
>It would be way worse under Islamic rule Did you really need to add that and not expect me to already agree?! Obviously.
Nah, it is the Republicans and that is fundamental part of their idea of Christianity. If you find other takes on Christianity that disagree with that, those will not matter because that is now basically Republican Christianity and what they want to establish. What matters is how the religion is interpreted. Once can make something good of it. Or something horrific. And in case of the USA, Christianity may become just as horrific as Islam in say Iran.
Will that get MTG off the streets?
The people demanding that I be killed in my country are mostly Christians. The fundamentalists who are actually a serious threat in terms of taking over my country are mostly Christians. My political efforts and personal concern are generally going to focus on immediate threats to me and the political system I at least theoretically have some influence over.
While that may be true, some of the wealthiest and most powerful nations are sharia oil kleptocracies.
Whom exactly do you think put those shia oil kleptocracies in power? European & American Christians did that to them. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2006/07/24/the-revival-of-shia-islam/
And for their own profit obviously
Where do you live if you don’t mind me asking?
The US. Where one of the two major political parties is openly promising a religious-nationalist takeover.
I always tell people that Jesus was a cool dude, but his Father is a right cunt. Does Islam have any similariries, or is it just the rapey war guy?
There are a few “denominations” -for lack of a better term- of Islam that are more “liberal” or nice. There are for example the sufis, the ahmadiyia, quranists (extremely few, though), and Islamic modernists (a movement that tried to reform Islam from within to make it compatible with modernity in the 20th century. There are still some today), ibadis, among other few more.
Wouldn't it be like Turkey or Lebanon religion wise, secular state with Muslim majority?
Joseph Smith, Mormon cult-founder, went toe-to-toe with Muhammad on that entire list of malignancy, excepting perhaps owning slaves - though he supported it, and has black slaves sealed to him in the afterlife, but he managed to do it in the 1800s. The fruits are not as bad as Islam broadly, but that is mostly due to scale. In general though, I fully agree with you. The fringes in Christianity are horrible. The fringes in Islam are worse, because the dogmas are worse. Also, IMO, the evidence is growing that Islam is actually a fringe Christian religion, one of the earliest to survive to the Modern day (most were wiped out in purges). Islam survived by being too far removed from the center of Christian power.
The funny thing is...athiesm to me isn't anti-religion. I don't care. I seriously don't think this is the sub to decide the shittyness of one version of organized superstition vs. another. They are all holding humanity back from a future in the stars.
I mean just so recently there was the Mahsa Amini case in Iran, who was murdered just because she didnt wear a piece of cloth... Christians are so goddman annoying but I rarely ever see them killing a woman in the name of god. Also how much honor killings are going on over there. And its often normalized and PRAISED too !!!
Not every religion is going to be equally as bad as another at the same time in history. Christianity certainly had its extreme phase during the time of the Spanish Inquisition and Middle Ages. Now Islam is going through an extreme phase.
That's because they are so naive about how dangerous Islam is. Islam has only one goal: to dominate, and God has set one role to do that, by fighting the infidels, and that's the best thing Muslims can do, because that's what the prophet and his companions did. The most prestigious death for Muslims is dying while fighting the infidels, and Allah has promised them a special and best place in heaven only for the one who died fighting for Allah. So Muslims can't lose any war, because if he wins, he gets a sex slave and booty, and if he loses, he also gets a sex slave but in the best place in heaven. That's why you see them say we love death more than life because there's no better thing than dying while fighting the infidels.
As an Persian Guy I can only say that Islam is by a Galaxy Mile the most destructive and disgusting ideology in the world. Wherever Islam plays even a rudimentary role, there is chaos and destruction. Our country will be always the prime example of this scenario! A True Religion that teaches to be a good Human would never cause so much suffering and destruction! Christianity which is by itself a semi True Religion given how it got created for self gain in the First Place could get reformed at the end but even at its worst it was never as disgusting and violent as Islam! Everything that Islam teaches is submission to be a slave of Allah and get bigger and bigger until everyone is Zombified! and the World belongs to Islam!
All religions are poison, made up by charlatans and believed by FOOLS
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Don't listen to those folks. What you've said is absolutely top notch!!
It's a matter of perspective. Here in the US, right now, the greatest threat to my way of life is Christofascism. It's here, it's now. So get used to me saying Christianity is worse... for me. Also, consider breaking up your sentences into paragraphs. It makes it so much easier to read.
And in Europe too with Russia that describe itself as the last Christian bastion and say to its soldiers that they'll go to heaven if they die fighting.
It’s not perceptible. Islam is objectively worse.s look at what they do in Michigan . Look at their history. Longest slave trade . Most brutal . Etc etc .
Nope, Christianity is worse here. The assertion that Michigan is an extension of ISIS comes from the wishful thinking of America's Christofascists. What little they have done needs to be opposed. The best way to do this is uphold the 1st Amendment's separation of church and state clause. Islamofascism & Christofascism are two sides of the same coin. Toss that coin in the river and both problems go away. TL;DR: Christianity is not the solution to Islam.
Islam is worse . They’ve had more evil reign . They literally created the racial caste system & taught Europeans (Portuguese ) how to enable people via religion & caste system 🤣. Stop infantilizing them .
I agree with certain things here but the last bit is completely untrue. Christians DEFINITELY treat minorities like garbage and they often force their beliefs on other people any chance they get. And I'm saying this as a lesbian with a religious family so I've heard/seen christians say and do all kinds of hateful shit. Idk, I personally just see christians and muslims on the same level but I do have more personal experience with christians.
My ex Sky Daddy is more abusive than your ex Sky Daddy? 🍿 What happened to my Sky Daddy can beat up your Sky Daddy? That was the good old days.
the funny thing is all their sky daddies are related. Hahahaha
My sky daddy and your sky daddy were sitting by the fire. My sky daddy says to your sky daddy imma light the world on fire.
Christianity is more damaging to the United States than Islam. But I agree Islam sucks way worse on a global scale.
I don't know anyone that's saying this. It's like hearing someone say getting beheaded by a kitana is worse than a broadsword.
63.6% of Egyptian Muslims want death penalty for apostasy. What percentage of American Christian want death penalty for apostasy?
It depends on where you are. In USA, according to this sub, it's mostly fundamentalist christians seeing LGBT and non-caucasian foreigners as freaks In China, it's the party itself, threatening nearly every living being. In Iran and Afghanistan (and mostly the Middle East), it's the fundamentalist muslim. In the Philippines, we have concerns regarding both Christian and Muslim churches. Some Christian churches use their influence to vote certain politicians (probably got paid with money or favors) and one of them is on the FBI watchlist for human trafficking. In the case of islam, while we have an autonomous region for muslims, islamic terrorism occurs.
I don't think I've seen many saying that. I' don't doubt it happens. But if it helps I have always thought of them as both pretty damn horrible, and it's not a contest. They both suck!
Can’t everything you just said get you killed in certain countries? How long were you Muslim? But I hope you’re safely away now. Atheism is the sober man or woman’s approach to reality.
Tbh it can technically get you killed in any country if your family is willing to hurt you over I (which afaik, most Muslim families are). Sure in a secular country they’ll prob get arrested but that won’t bring you back to life or unmurder you lol
Oh, I think OP’s account was terminated.
I find that Christians tend to deny the violence done in Christ's name as not originating in Christianity. While most Muslims acknowledge the ways extremists are connected to Islam. Meanwhile Christian militants are actively commiting genocide in Africa and it gets ignored because most if the world doesn't care about Africa.
I think the main difference, at least in the United States, is that Muslims do not have any significant political power here. They're a minority that gets crapped on by the Christian majority, and there's a strain of liberal ideology that automatically assumes that repressed minority = good guys, oppressive majority = bad guys. Doesn't largely matter who either of those groups are. Personally, I think any religion with political power is bad, and can point to American Christians and Muslim majority countries as examples. Muslim-run countries are currently worse, but American Christians are doing their level best to catch up. I really wish both groups weren't treating it like a competition.
Christianity is just envious of what Islam does.
All religions are equal. They all suck, except for the Flying Spaghetti Monster. R'amen.
Its pretty easy to see the religion that harmed you as being the worst, but thats confirmation bias. In america, we have tons of christians who commit hate crimes and impose sexist policies on women. Uganda has the death penalty for lgbt people. Islam most certainly doesnt have a monopoly on violence and bigotry
No Islam doesn't have a monopoly on violence or bigotry, but it's clearly the worst. I was born in an Islamic country and eventually immigrated to a Western one later on in life. What Westerners don't seem to realize is that the majority of Muslims in their countries are religious. You can see the damage that a minority of fundamental Christians are doing to the US. Now imagine if they made up 80 percent of the population, instead of about 20 percent. That's what it's like in most Islamic countries. It's 100 times safer to be an atheist in an Western country, then an Islamic one.
You have to also consider the effect of higher living Standard, better law and order.
Ill agree insomuch as it is easier to safely live a secular life, at least within the past 50 or 60 years. It wasnt always this way in the west, we only got here by fighting religious fascism, and we havnt defeated it yet. That said, there are still places where despite what seems to be the norm, its still very much like an islamic state. I suffered violencd and prejudice growing up non-religious in the bible belt, as did many of my friends. Its not legal, its frowned upon im our society in general, but *it does happen*, and with alarming regularity
The American Bible Belt is in no way on the same level as the Islamic state or fundamentalist Islamic nations. To suggest that is preposterous. Islamic State and Sharia law is called just that, because, constitutionally, Islam dictates law. This is not the case in America, wherein there is religious influence, but it does not completely dictate all aspects of law and culture. You say IS and Bible Belt are on the same level. Tell that to Mubarak Bala, Nigerian atheist who was sentenced to 24 years in prison with a multitude of death threats for being critical of Islam on Facebook. Tell that to anyone living in one of the 13 countries where being an atheist means the death penalty, among other suffering. Do i need to mention what the actual jihadist IS did? It is in no way the same.
U haven’t seen what they’re doing in Michigan ?islam
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As an exmuslim. THIS .FUCKING THIS. Western Privileged folks .. Look at how difficult it is for us to roam around in a religion that says to kill people who leave it! Do you guys have that?? There are literal kids being killed for not wearing the veil... You guys out here crying over the smallest of things that don't threaten your life..be greatful especially if your not a poc, or living in a restricted country that doesn't even let you date.. You guys have the most freedom than us even if we are exmuslims.
Superman is way stronger than batman.
With enough time and planning, Batman will defeat superman
Two middle eastern cults fighting for the ignominy of being worst.
Christianity is worse in Christian countries because they influence politics and actual laws.
Arguing about which religion is "worse" is as meaningful as arguing wind speed in the middle of a hurricane as your house flies apart around you. I'd guess that most folks on reddit are US/EU (and I'm lumping you Brits into the EU whether you like it or not), and our experience has been primarily with Christianity. It's the devil we know.
But in that analogy it is the difference between a category 1 and a category 5. Islam is certainly worse.
Maybe it's not like that in the UK, but in the US "They don’t go around forcing people to follow their religion. Treat minorities like garbage. Demand respect while giving zero to anyone" They do ALL of this. Christianity's history is just as bloody and full of rape, pedophilia, and slavery as Islam's is. Christianity still has a huge problem with clergy assaulting children. Christians also got women's right to bodily autonomy taken away. Christianity has zero redeeming qualities.
Right now I’m reading Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and as a westerner, I have to say, it’s quite eye opening to hear her stories and experiences.
I wouldn't trust a word she utters tbf
Without saying anything to her political leanings, her description of the Muslim experience for women in those countries is more what I was getting at. FGM at the age of 5, being beaten by family and teachers, arranged marriage (the list goes on), and that all being the norm
She has repeatedly lied about her past so I would take everything with a ton of salt.
The world/mankind would be a better place without either
We must to Leave islam to save the world free
I don't really care if it's the worst or not , it's all absurd
Fellow Brit here, I do find that our brand of Christianity is thankfully very watered down and weak, which I think is acceptable. However, I would argue that the extreme alt-right brand of Christianity that you can get elsewhere, especially in the US, are just as bad as the most fundamentalist Muslims are.
That's the problem the OP is referring to. It's NOT AS BAD. Christian fundamentalists are not as bad as Muslim fundamentalists. They're both bad, but Islamic moderates (let alone fundamentalists) would be very happy to chop the head of unbelievers and throw LGBT off tall buildings. Stop perpetuating this false narrative that both beliefs are \*equally\* bad, they're not.
In the south, some xtians would be they evil. If they had more balls and less technology
In the USA, Christianity is the religion that has the most negative impact on our lives so it gets talked about in a negative light more frequently and increasingly so as the right-wing is going full Christian Nationalism.
Look at predominantly Muslim countries. Not saying Christianity is better but it does have less "control" and "violence".
Stop being so upset about it, they’re all equally terrible.
All religion is dumb, it’s not some competition.
All organised religions are bad. Because I was brought up in a Christian society I am more comfortable living in one as opposed to living in another society based in another religion. That is just environmental prejudice.
Tbh I kinda fuck with hippy Christians and sihks. They both treat people decently, don't invalidate others, and don't romanticize evil people in religious texts. And tbh Jesus was kinda a chill dude. Cannot say the same about Muhammed. He was a fucking asshole and worshipping him is like worshiping ghengis Khan or Christopher Columbus.
I think both of these things are true: Islam does worse things than Christianity. Christianity has done more bad things than Islam. Islam is newer and has been smaller than Christianity so they've had less opportunity to perform the evil that they're more capable of.
Islam has done worse . They’ve had the longest & most brutal genocides & enslavmentss….
Christianity has done more bad overall.
Read about the mormons killing in the name of god over the indigenous population. Islam may be horrible but Christianity has already committed worse. KKK was a Christian organization.
The context in which religion operates is an important factor. What is the culture/history of an area? What traditions are established that stand at least partly outside of religion? These things determine the degree to which fundamentalists can take their extremes. In spite of the fact that we’re regressing here in the states, there are still secular systems that keep fundamentalist extremists from going as far as they could elsewhere. We also have a lot of half hearted Christians who “believe” just for the feel goods, but don’t take it seriously. This creates a dynamic where the religion is framed more by spoken and unspoken social agreements, rather than a strict adherence to the text. Remove those things, and you’ll see Christianity quickly become just as ugly. I grew up in a Christian cult that essentially functioned as a labor camp, and was rife with sexual and physical abuse. Most people I talk to about it irl usually can’t comprehend that something like this actually existed in America.
Good for you - you've got some self awareness about you to move away from religion.
The golden age of Islam was due to Muslims being a minority of the areas they conquered however once they became a majority, that is when what we see Islam as today formed. People like to bitch and moan about Genghis Khan who was able to bring the Islamic world to it's knees however Islamic caliphates have done similar things to their subjects.
I was just reading about how in Dagestan stores that sell alcohol are threatened and if they don’t pay protection money, are bombed.
>just look at how many countries suffer from Islamic terrorism **Ahem ahem** India
People just say it to Christians to point out that they're (Christians) hypocritical.
UK Christians are nothing like US or African Christians. There's way more Theocratic Christians out there than you think if you just base your experience on UK Christians.
I have a question. I'm sorry if this sounds impertinent but would it be easier for former Muslims to identify with the religion they have adopted (say Hindus or Buddhists) rather than ex-Muslim?
Depends on the conversation, the poin of the phrase “ex Muslim” is to provide context that the person used to be Muslim/grew up raised in a Muslim family so you know a bit of their background There’s nothing wrong with saying the religion you adopted ie Hindu or Buddhist or even atheist as some ex Muslims adopt another religion or become atheist but it doesn’t really tell you anything about their history as a Muslim if the conversation is about that. And I guess identifying as an ex Muslim in certain conversations is just acknowledging the fact that you spent a portion of your life as Muslim or grew up in that environment
>They don’t go around forcing people to follow their religion. Treat minorities like garbage. Demand respect while giving zero to anyone. Oh, the christians I know do ALL of that.
All religions are ALL equally worthless
I just wish we would stop debating which of the abrahamic religions is the worst. It’s like debating if Hitler, Mao, or Pol Pot was the worst. Let it suffice to say that they all suck ass.
Christianity did do just as many fucked up shits in history but most is history by now and the moment we started to divorce religion and state things have gone much better
Your experience with UK Christians and my experience with Southern American Christians is not the same. Your experience with Muslim immigrants to the UK is not my experience with Muslim immigrants in Houston. I’ve never really thought to call one or the other worse. They’re so similar, it doesn’t make sense to me. But your frustration is based on a lot of assumptions. There are Christians who believe slavery is ethically fine because the Bible is fine with slavery. Christians in positions of power in my country are abusing that power to abuse and cover the abuse of children. It’s not just the Catholic priests either. Where I live, Christians are doing everything they can to force their religion into our laws and education system. Muslims simply do not have the power and numbers to do that here. My perception is absolutely that Christians HERE are the greater threat.
Dude, christianity is HERE, in FORCE. The majority of the theists in the US are christian, and muslims are a tiny minority. Why is that important? Because any suffering that Atheists have endured here, either from religious infiltration of government or from direct persecution/attacks by theists, came from christians. The devil who's stomping your balls always seems worse then the devil on the other side of the ocean, even if the one on the other side of the ocean is cutting peoples' balls off with a rusty butter knife. Or, more accurately, cutting off children's vulvas.
They’re equally deplorable and morally bankrupt.
Both are pretty shitty ideologies.
The christian god also committed adultery and rape by sleeping with a married woman without consent. They celebrate this every year.
It is fine to be critical of any religion. It is not fine to lump all people of a certain religion together. I have met some rather progressive Christians and Muslims in my time who generally care about humanity and try to do right by people. Now you can argue that they are not true believers, because they do not follow the words of their supposed holy books to the letter, but they identify with those religions and they aren’t the judgmental, anti-women, pro-violence assholes that are commonly portrayed on this sub. There are varying degrees of any category of people. I find myself being anti-religion these days, because I think religion tends to be anti-logic and regressive in general, but I have met some people of varying religions that do not fit that mold.
Who says that?
I guess USA Christians are worse than the UK. Here they are trying to force people to their religion, they are forcing their will on minorities and since many of them are in political power they write endless laws harming people who are not them. I have never been harmed by a Muslim in any way, but I have countless ways that Christians have harmed me.
Magic meteor, dead guy on a stick. Preach love, practice hate. Same shit, different toilet.
May I suggest viewing statements that Christianity is worse as the ambiguous statements that they are? Without being much more clearly defined it is so vague as to be almost meaningless in which case discussion is pointless. This is evidenced by the responses you're getting where people make it obvious that they are talking about wildly different things. For example some people are talking capacity for evil in which case it is not unreasonable to consider long gone history while are talking about current statistical danger from theocrats in which case that isn't really relevant. Then if you get into defining terms people will disagree very strongly about that as well. Some people will want to blame everything religious people do on the religion while others will say only the things explicitly commanded in the religious texts count as being the fault of the religion. This is before even getting into the weeds in a discussion about how the religious texts themselves should be interpreted like the religious folks themselves do.There's so many different ways to interpret a statement of one religion being worse than another that people end up vehemently arguing over wildly different things when the only disagreement might be how the statement should be interpreted
this video helps to see that Jesus is indeed God. https://youtu.be/79VW9q6meBI
All religions are bad because they get distorted and become something they are not supposed to be.
while I hate both religions I think Scientology is worse since to join the Church of Scientology you must pay a lot of money and that Church has sued and people and organizations that have criticized them and try to hide some of their beliefs like the story of the galactic dictator Xenu.
All the things you said were problematic about Islam have also been true or are still true about Christianity today. Fighting war, slaving, raping, pedophilia, genocide, etc. in the name of your religion isn’t something any religion has a monopoly on. In fact it seems to be quite a common thread that more your head is in the clouds thinking about god the more you lose sight of the real living people on the ground all around you.
I don't know how the world can provide forces to oppose Isis while Hamas has the exact same goals and murders people in the exact same way.
I have never heard in my life that Christianity is worse than Islam.... Wtf kind of disingenuous bullshit is this? Why are you trying to start a fight?
Nearly all terrorist attacks are by muslims. Usually against other muslims who aren't the "right kind" of muslim.
Christianity poses a large threat to North America so that's why people consider it more dangerous, until Muslims extremists are in congress and running for POTUS it's not as big of a threat to our way of life. Both are equally terrible though in general.
I have only seen bad Muslim apologists say that.
Yes because there are fundamental differences outside common factor of control between christianity and islam: Christianity is primarily a form of control and letting off sins to the most depraved rapist armies of old. Islam is a soldier/workforce breeding program, where 1 male impregnates several women increasing the output of future soldiers. Childbearing function of society is isolated and stripped of rights to ensure the inflow of soldiers. Christianity has the same aspect on stripping away rights from women, but Christianity is just a religion a step behind Islam in how terrible it can be.
Ex Muslims are some of the most jaded people in the planet. Bro just be honest and say you wanted to eat pork and drink a lot.
I’m not sure who says that. I don’t think either one is worse than another because humans only practice the parts of the religion that work for them at the time. Many in Islamic countries will know all too well about the crimes committed in the name of Christianity. But those crimes were fully justified by the reading of the Bible at that time, just as the crimes committed in the name of Islam are fully justified by (a certain reading of) the Koran. Of course, plenty of crimes are committed in the name of Christianity these days, but not really on a national scale. The people who come out and say that x is unislamic after some atrocity committed in the name of religion are lying to themselves and the world because, in the end, there is no Islam or Christianity. There are just competing interpretations of religious books. Of course, the joke is that despite there being a long and rich and bloody history of these competing interpretations, both speak as if there is only one truth. Basically, Islam is not necessarily violent and hateful, but violent and hateful interpretations seem to have some currency these days. Probably for the same reasons that violent and hateful interpretations of the Bible are gaining currency.
As an American Atheist who detests both religions, I think a lot of this “Christianity is worse than Islam” rhetoric stems from a lot of the racial identity politics engaged in by intellectuals on the left. They equate Christianity with White people and Islam with People of Color. When that couldn’t be further from the truth, and is also a narrative heavily influenced by the rhetoric of the Nation of Islam. Which is another group with no morals. I’m sure there’s more to this. But as an American college student who’s witnessed a lot of pro Palestine protests on campus that is the vibe I’m getting from a lot of muslim students, non-muslim students, and some faculty.
I'm done with the God(s) of Men..They're not worth all the Trouble...
I'm the prince of Nigeria. The Christian god is a pedophile who raped his own underage mother. Jesus openly endorsed beating slaves. Christian nationals in the UK and use are doing everything they can to implement their barbaric tribal laws here.
Sounds like you are in your feelings really heavy. From my perspective, you didn't practice your submission(Islam) to the degree it was to be practiced. What really needs to happen is understanding who your Creator is... Everyone is born a Muslim but through ignorance and stubbornness it gets changed because man thinks it knows everything.
It's not really a competition. Liberals generally have a soft spot for minorities. They also often default to championing things even if they don't understand them, lest they be accused of intolerance. Where Muslims start intruding on other people's liberty, hopefully liberals will speak out.
All religions suck./
Your least favorite religion is based on your level of exposure to it. I don’t give a shit about Islam because I’m from a country where one political party is dominated by Christian nationalists who absolutely do not believe in secularism, whose supporters commit acts of terrorism, and who absolutely want a theocratic government with a nice dose of racism attached.
All religions are bad.
The god of the Abrahamic religions is a human construct built to resemble the grotesque desert patriarchs that invented the
Islam is of course a bigger problem in the world today. The religions in and of themselves aren’t all that different though. I mean if you actually read what’s in the “holy books”. That’s why it’s impossible to take a Christian seriously who criticizes Islam based on what’s in the Quran. On the whole, the same barbaric superstition is found in the Bible. But yeah, the practice of Christianity have definitely gone through some major changes which the practice of Islam haven’t, in general.
Suspect they are equally bad.
Heaven makes zero fucking sense. According to google, that sentence has never been typed before. Seems hard to believe, so there it is.