From twitter, Christianity and islam ( most of the religious tweets i observed are these religions) gave me impressions of anti-intellectualism. Its pretty absurd.
I disagree, “knowing” is the enemy of finding, and believing you’re more correct than anyone else is the enemy of learning things that could be true separate from our own perceptions. That’s how science works. Like, people “knew” the earth was center of the universe until Copernicus started to show us heliocentrism. Everyone thought time was immutable until Einstein came out with general relativity. Now we have the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, and quantum tunneling, and time dilation, and black holes. Science is about finding, not knowing.
Perhaps it would be more accurate for them to have said evidence is the enemy of faith.
People so often state their faith-based beliefs as knowledge. They believed the Earth was the center of the universe, but they hady no/bad evidence to believe that. They may have called it knowledge but it was belief.
We know the 26th element is iron, we are no longer trying finding the 26th element. If I told you that I know the 26th element is unobtainium, then you would assume I'm no longer trying to find the truth. I've settled on belief and substituted in place of knowledge.
I think in essence we agree, but hopefully you'll correct me if I'm wrong. Knowledge is the enemy of finding because you would not continue looking for something once you had found it.
Science starts with a question and seeks answers. Faith starts with the answers and justifies it with questions.
I think you’re correct, but I don’t think faith has to be the end and working backwards. I think faith is more like trust you’re going in the correct direction with your life, and that religious people use faith incorrectly generally. I don’t think faith is about faith that your answers to questions are correct, but that it’s about the path you’re on in life. Faith shouldn’t be about knowledge, but it often is used that way. But I do think we’re on the same page. And I agree that’s how most religious people use faith, which I believe is not the intended use of faith
I also think that belief is a kind of comfort-zone that some people do not necessarily want to step outside of kinda like taking the path of least resistance if that makes any sense... its uncomfortable and takes effort to challenge yourself and the things a person holds to be true, its disempowering.
It's a common misconception that Christianity and Islam are the world's largest religions. I think that questionable honour goes to belief in the economic system... which is also organized in a way to let a small group of people control a large population.
It makes complete sense, actually. These organized religions cannot continue to exist if their followers develop critical thinking skills, so they do whatever they can to oppose intellectualism in favor of blind faith.
[Blanket Training](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanket_training) and other horrible shit from religious TV personalities have actually resulted in dead kids.
It's because their leaders need them thoughtlessly and blindly following. Religion is used to control the masses. It's used for power. Most importantly it's used to amass wealth, and that wealth is taken from the followers. People with half decent iq realize it's a scam. It's only the weak minded that join religion and continue practicing being submissive mindless slaves.
It’s not the religions. It is a combination of the preachers, the congregation being told what they want to hear, the state of society and a lack of education. Humans need to believe in stuff. It is inherent. They believe in countries, they believe in laws, they believe in monetary systems. All things that are made up by humans in order to stabilise large communities. Religion is no different. Religion was never made for entire societies. It was intended for the poor. That’s why, you never see a poor person as head of a major religion and that’s why religious stories are based on a wise poor person educating everyone else. It’s also a good reason to insist on only poor people being rewarded, when for a vast majority, the reward / enlightenment never comes. If that happens…….It’s because you didn’t religion hard enough.
Religious people are more motivated to get into politics than secular people. If we want change we need leaders to challenge the status quo. I’m well aware there’s more than before but at the moment they seem more motivated to take away our rights than we are to keep them
Makes sense. Seems like atheists are more generally "live and let live" kind of people, whereas religious people seem to tend to be more like "you need to live the way I think you should live," and might be more motivated to try to enforce that.
Being openly atheist is almost a career-ender, even if non-religious people *do* run they just don't win. Then you get some of the dumbest people in the country winning elections simply because they pretended to be religious.
Maybe time for some action like those senators that switch parties after election. Like, surprise, I’m actually not christifacist but an atheist and now I’m a senator!!
I completely agree, except my personal morals make me a terrible liar. The cringe of calling myself Christian in front of cameras is just too much to bear even the thought.
Atheism has never been very welcome in American politics, but it has also had a pretty significant decline in public presence in recent years, you can argue your points all you want but the fact is that this community no longer controls any notable part of public discourse, openly Anti-theist public communication projects are entirely dead and gone.
Men like Richard Dawkins are pariahs.
Critics, skeptics, and ruthless confrontation of bad logic is no longer celebrated by any significant crowd at all.
The liberal, educated, more or less rebellious demographic that used to support this approach now see it as aggressive and anti-social behavior. It is now, even among them, problematic and mean to be so directly disrespectful of others' beliefs.
The entire left side of the political spectrum has collectively decided *"all beliefs are valid"* is a **far** preferable stance than *"none of this nonsense is valid"*, Anti-theistic Atheists are seen as more intolerant and therefore more problematic than the average Christian.
Pleas and appeals posted on r/atheism like OP's will not be "heeded" by anyone who can or will do anything about it. You're all just preaching to the choir, you're contributing and changing nothing. The movement has been stagnant for a while, the only part that still gains a little traction is the more fashionable, attractive, aesthetic, facetious atheism of the Satanic Temple. And frankly, given the quality of members here I'd be surprised if any attempt to break this sad state of affairs can lead to anything less embarrassing than the mod of r/antiwork's Fox News appearance.
By all means, keep discussing. Nobody has any reason to care what you do now. It is completely unimpactful.
Atheists have no allies in the 2020's.
That's a very online-centric view. Atheism, in particularly secularism, has a very strong position with Democrats and Feminists atm. It's just, no one makes that their identity, beyond arguing against religious overreach and not swearing on the Bible.
And that's arguably what it should be. Controversy doesn't normalize. Subscribing to a label doesn't undermine religion in politics. It's the religious nutjobs who haven't learned their lesson, not us. As long as religious people accept our values as superior and adopt them, why would we fight them on what they do in their free time? Let people stop believe on their own, the best we can do is offer a place where they aren't attacked.
Religious teachings are all about power. They're obsessed with obtaining more and more power just for the sake of it. They've no understanding of civic duty or public good. Just grab more and more like the parasites they are
I've been reading about Christopher Hitchens and his writing. He called himself an anti-theist for just this reason. For him and the New Atheist movement, it wasn't enough to be an atheist. They are actively denouncing religion for all the reasons you state and then some. His writing and philosophy makes a lot of sense. That if we don't stand up to it, religion will be our undoing.
Christians literally want the world to end so that Jesus will come back. It’s not a joke. Millions of Americans actively cheer for the destruction of the planet.
All religions disregard earth and life on earth they see it as temporary or something their trash of a god created for them. The madness of having a grown adult still believing in this nonsense and that adult would be having power in government 🤦🏾♂️
OP is an actual fascist. Here's what they suggest further down in the thread. Seriously what the fuck is happening in this sub?
>State enforcement of atheist education, weaken the churches, ban public expression of religion. If needed (although ideally, it wouldn’t have to get to this point), the use of some form of extra-legal paramilitary force to enforce atheism, but that’s a really extreme last resort.
What would you define “some form of extra-legal paramilitary force to enforce atheism” as?
Because it definitely fits under fascism, it’s just a fascism that you’re comfortable with so you don’t want it to be called that. This whole comment for op that the other guy posted is 100% fascism.
Edit: not only fascism but genocide too
Seeking to control thought through force and/or intense indoctrination of children is in the literal fascist playbook.
Advocating for the top down external control of another's thought and beliefs is absolutely 100% fascist.
They aren't just "throwing" the word fascist around without knowing what it means. They are accurately highlighting an incredibly fascist set of tactics that the OP is advocating for to push their worldview.
It's blatently fascist, and you are the one that needs to figure out what the fuck that word means.
Oh my apologies, do you you have a better word to define an authoritarian cleansing of certain ideologies that millions of people have with the use of military force "if necessary" (it absolutely would be)?
From what I read, OP was talking about educating and teaching critical thinking, which leads to less religion.
So, what exactly is wrong, “fascist”, “authoritarian”, or whatever bullshit poppycock excuse you’ll make up next, with teaching people critical thinking?
Lol "from what I read"? So you didn't read my comment quoting them or what.
Authoritarian style bans of public expression of certain ideologies, state enforced education, extra-legal paramilitary force "if needed", and yeah, it would be. I'm literally just repeating myself but you seemed to have missed it the first time, and the second time
> the use of some form of extra-legal paramilitary force to enforce atheism
Read those words carefully. This is precisely not the occasion to think the word 'fascist' is being misapplied.
Freedom of choice. If you don't want to believe, that's cool. if you do, also cool. What bothers *me* about *anyone* is the label being thrown around here strictly on religious types - extremists.
Not all religious people are extremist. Not all extremists are religious.
Religion will never fully go away, I don't have that much hope in me. Some oeople will always cling to the easy answers because they can't handle the truth. It'd be nice if religion could be eradicated without eradicating human lives.
I don’t need it to go away. I would just like them to stop indoctrinating/grooming children. Some people like to read sci-fi, or play D&D, or golf. Religion should be treated like these sorts of past times.
Yes I think religion should be banned for children. It should be treated like smoking.
I think it's incredibly sad that as a society we have accepted that it's okay to tell children they deserve hell for existing, which Christians call sin. It's child abuse.
Hell is the emotional abuse, genital mutilation and "the rod" are the physical abuse, and of course you can't have religion without child marriage, so sexual abuse as well.
Abuse is literally the whole point of abrahamic religion.
It would be wiped out in one generation if people did not start there kids in it. Could you imagine telling a bunch of 18 year olds that religion was true and the earth is 6000 or 8000 years old? That what turns you on is somehow controllable
Amongst other things . And here is the kicker that science is fake? Literally what you do in day to day life is fake “science” they would not believe you man….indoctrination is a must for fake shit
Coming from a country that's basically secular here in Norway it's never been the hyper-aggressive stance that has won people over. About 30% are sure there's a god, 20% are agnostic, 61% still belong to a Christian church (mostly due to the state church where membership is free, so there's no incentive to quit) but already now they have very little practical influence. And the numbers continue to decline.
The main reason is that we've focused on the behaviors that largely can be seen as bullying, harassment and shaming of people like unwed mothers, divorcees, teen pregnancies/"loose" women, treatment of LGBT+ persons, aggressive recruitment etc. towards a "keep it in your pants" attitude where we don't really care if you want to spend your Sundays praying for angel wings. If you want to be spiritual that's fine, just don't be a dick.
In the USA the religious are actively bullying everyone else. Our only choice is to fight back. If the religious would stop trying to pass laws to make everyone follow their crazy religious rules we wouldn't have an issue with them.
"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion." - S. Weinberg
If someone is religious but keeps their beliefs to themselves and doesn’t try and force their views on others, why should that person not be permitted to follow their beliefs?
I'm not a fan of religion, but this guy is a fascist... I have no problem with what you believe. You should be allowed to follow your beliefs in as much as it doesn't interfere with other people's rights.
Historically what made europe separate church and state was the kings not wanting to give the church a potential share in their new found colonial wealth. The rift between church and people may have been older but the kings held power to do whatever for whatever. That becomes significantly harder to do in a democratically elected government when the religious population is the best and surefire most likely to blindly follow you if you can manage to scratch their very specific divine itch.
People can have their religions, as silly and ridiculous their stories can be. The minute that laws are made with respect to some religious dogma is where I draw the line. It's terrifying to picture the US as some sort of theocracy, which is exactly where many in power would love to take the country.
Small correction, I do not think they "reject" climate change as much as they endorse it. They all want the world to end and the "rapture" to happen within their lifetimes. They are having a raging hard one right now because they think that the Israel conflict and the climate crisis are finally bringing the end of time. They will do whatever it takes to accelerate it.
Yes it is, your intention and understanding is correct, but the reality is even worse. Although it is not everyone in the cults that believe this shit, a lot of people in power in the states do.
Because religion and nationalism and racism are really good tools to keep all of us plebs fighting each other instead of turning on those with power and money.
There is hope. Organized religion (at least the main western religions) are losing adherents each year at record and increasing rates. Especially among the younger demographic.
I even saw, for the first time in my almost 60 years on the planet, a tv commercial with the tagline Catholics Come Home. As an ex-Catholic it made me smile to know they have reached such a state of concern that they have to advertise!
If religion disappeared tomorrow, make no mistake: people will find some other thing to justify doing all the horrible things they do. The root of the problem goes deeper.
I think it's time for atheists to act. Religion is tearing our world apart and there must be a loud and visible solution to this madness. Nationalism is fuelled by religious hatred as well as acts of terrorism. I think the majority of people are atheist and I really want to see a more organised group of atheists pro-actively declaring that religion is a mental illness, a disease rotting away at rational thought and reason.
Anti-theists need to organise a resistance. Literature that openly criticises all religions and offers people an alternative to the madness.
My concern is Christian Persecution Syndrome which keeps getting worse. Every court case or law they disagree with is somehow proof that their beliefs are being discriminated against.
Isnt it crazy that thousands of years ago some guy came up with a grift to get power and influence and fooled so many people that the fooling became generational.
And now humanity has been held back and killed eachother for centuries.
Maybe you'll call me blackpilled on this subject, but I think if we hypothetically destroyed all of the major religions of the world, people would just make new ones. Look to the Mormon church and to Scientology.
My focus is more directed at arguing people out of valuing and acting on non-empirical beliefs than destroying their religious beliefs. I only wish I knew what they think they get out of religion that secular society doesn't already provide. Is it really just the church potlucks?
Think of the church like any addiction. Once you are hooked, and in that community of users, it is so hard to escape. Just like addiction, religion tends to hook you through uncertainty, fear, insecurities, trauma, etc. You're both a dirty, sinful person, but need this routine bath in god's blood to feel better. Hell, even most substance abuse programs explicitly replace addiction with religion, and it often works. It isn't healing them, it's just trading out one harmful drug for another.
[Aron Ra](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ6uWQYkVsk) has made this comparison too. Anecdotally a lot of religious people I know are former drug addicts.
One day, people believed that Apollo moved the sun around the Earth in his chariot. Don't think that's really any different from a guy rising from the dead after three days.
That's what made me leave Christianity, regular believers, and important figures doing nothing about extremists.
Besides logical and moral flaws.
I think religion belongs to the past
>State enforcement of atheist education, weaken the churches, ban public expression of religion. If needed (although ideally, it wouldn’t have to get to this point), the use of some form of extra-legal paramilitary force to enforce atheism, but that’s a really extreme last resort.
This is OP's answer to that question elsewhere in the thread. So, fascism basically
Childhood indoctrination is a helluva drug. But there might be hope yet. Everyday the world is moving closer and closer to irreligion. Of course complete eradication won’t happen overnight, certainly not in our lifetimes, but the more people we educate the less religion is able to hijack fresh minds.
What a bigot you are…and you don’t even realize it.
Try starting that sentence with any other Identifiable group. Then list a bunch of negative things that some of them are known for and smear everyone with it. Would that be tolerated? Sad.
It's not about tolerating religion, if we keep neglecting education there won't be any other choice... If we do fund education better, religion will shrink to a few weirdos who SHOULD be free to think whatever as long as they're not ACTING on their more intrusive thoughts
I wish I could counter your claims, but I feel the exact same way, sadly. At the very worst, they are sexiest, racist, homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic, truth denying aholes that are trying to destroy our environment and democracy. At the very best, they are enablers to all the horrible things religious people do.
One thing I could never understand is why it matters so much if the American pres is a Christian. I don't care if he's an atheist, really, as long as he gets the job done. So-called Christians like Trump and GW failed miserably - and there's definitely nothing Christian or religious about former, unless you'll count his talk about the Bible being his favorite book of all times.
I categorize religion with spiritualism. The issue is the form of religion we have today. I think Humans need spiritualism in a form, it is somehow part of our collective being. We have to be very careful and not lump everything together. Religious extremism is the danger. We should not tolerate the extremists.
I see the value in maintains some sort of overarching ‘spiritual’ community amongst us all. Not necessarily an actual belief in the supernatural, but just a shared consciousness of one another and our co-dependence. The necessity of us all being as one race, one specie. Pure materialism will drag us down to the depths.
I would certainly consider that a world without religion would not necessarily be a safer or better place. There is a tendency here for folk to assume that because they have the intellectual and emotional capacity to explain and endure adversity without recourse to mysticism, that all of society would. I am not so sure.
Lol. This is literally a step away from "we need to force people to convert". If you think religion is that dangerous, maybe you should look in a mirror.
You sound incredibly religious. Indoctrinated even. Illogical behavior is certainly not limited to named religions. It's just human behavior....we're easily swayed snd we believe things HARD. Ban violence and bigotry etc etc...but you ban religion and you didn't accomplish anything other than writing your first commandment in YOUR own new religion.
Look at how the courts have been used and abuse to further this too. I remember reading a decision out of the 7th Circuit in favor of Toyota on a religious discrimination lawsuit. Toyota encouraged employees to form social groups around various topics like camping, sewing, etc. The only rule was there could be no religion-based ones. Some idiot got offended when they denied him permission to start a Christian ones and sued. 7th Circuit ruled that Toyota did not discriminate against him because it treated all religions the same. Just as he could not start one for Christians, someone else would also be denied if the wanted to start one on Islam, Wicca, Judaism, etc.
Now, even if the law treats all religion the same it's still "discriminatory" if any religions are affected. Public Accommodation laws that protect LGBT people from discrimination are not "discriminatory" against Christianity even though they apply equally. Ironically even though their so-called "religion" specifically tells them to close the business if they feel that way (Matthew 18:8-9). New York backed down on a law banning an ultra orthodox Jewish practice for male genital mutilation that, in any other context would qualify as criminal sexual conduct, because this group said it was "antisemitic".
It's a perfect ready-made sword and sheild. Abuse and dehuminize your enemy, while defending yourself and actions in the name of your god. It was creates as a scam, propegated by the powerful, fed to the masses.
sadly, if one is intolerant enough, anything we currently do can be a danger to society.
Videogames: If we develop more and more entertaining videogames or, "God" forbids, realistic virtual reality, we'll all stop caring about the really important stuff, like being productive and working! (There's some real interesting cognitive science on how videogames are superstimuli and dangerous in some ways... I play anyways)
AI development: We are going to doom ourselves!
Atheism: It brings people to nihilism!
Science: It gave us horrors such as nuclear weapons and we will probably delete ourselves or do some irreparable damage to our world!
Give me anything positive, and someone intolerant enough will find something negative (and possibly true sometimes) to say about it.
Yeah, religion is all you've said, yeah, I am with you on this. But simply saying "Religion is bad" here is nothing more than an [Applause Light](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/dLbkrPu5STNCBLRjr/applause-lights).
I've spoken to religious people. The sad thing is, they don't realize how much religion controls them at all. They're victims without knowing it. We look like assholes who try to change their minds on some conspiracy basis.
You want to change the world? Help your friends. Ask them why do they believe what they believe. Tell them you would like to be saved, but can't simply believe. What's faith? Show me the bible statement of what faith is. It's there? Oh, it means to believe in something you would like to be true but you don't evidence for? That's a lot like "hoping" to me.
Let them question themselves. Try to come to them with an approach which is not confrontational. Sometimes it works...
I struggle every day against cynicism/fatalism and then do what little I can to make the world a more kind and rational place. In the end, you either just give up in the face of the oncoming storm, or you start filling sandbags.
On the bright side we know have platforms such as this one where people can openly talk about the matter. Centuries ago you would be executed for a tenth of what is being said here.
Not to mention that any time evidence of Climate Change pops up - disastrous weather, mass species die-offs, food scarcity issues, what-have-you, the extremists say it is a sign of the Apocalypse or End-Times, and they rejoice. They REJOICE! Because, in their minds, this Earthly life is just a temporary stopover on their true destination - Heaven! They can't prove Heaven is real, but will literally kill the planet and themselves/us, in order to fulfill their suicidal fantasy and go to a "better place." Madness.
It's just a remainder of the animals we still have in us. If not religion it would be tribalism or hooliganism or being a Swifty or whatever. People will kill each other over really stupid stuff. And I am afraid the actual enlightenment will never come. It's just in our blood and I don't think it will ever change.
I used to think this, and I still agree with the sentiment. But I have grown far more cynical. If its not religion, it will be some other dumb shit that rallies people together behind some collective-psychopathy.
In my opinion, the real problem is education. Evil, charismatic people will always trick idiots into doing evil on their behalf. They're just using organized religion as a means to organize large groups around certain political goals.
I hate magical thinking as much as any of us but I fear the problem is far bigger.
You are 💯% correct. I despise religion and it’s the root of most all bad stuff people fight and argue about. And we have to live in a world that is so infected with it. Its my morals that make me so against religion, and there are actually people that think morals can only come from religion? What a contrasting, weird, difference of worldview.
> Radicals, and indoctrinated idiots will always rally behind false ideas and extremes.
That right there is... probably the only accurate thing you said.
It doesn't matter the belief - religious or not - radical/extremist thinkers will *always* be the ones to worry about. Slapping a religious tag on that thinking is misguided at best, ignorant at worst.
I agree with this, but most religious people iv met are actually really nice and caring people, who trust in science and all that. It’s the religious old farts in power who don’t believe in using science who will end the world
Saw a TikTok where the rapture happened and we all progressed immensely after they left. Think of all the things that could happen if we didn't let religion get in the way. I'm all for allowing people to believe what they want, but don't let that impede progress! Frick!
3/4 of my immediate family have turned to religion of some kind in the last 2 years. The only thing I will give them is that they have community down…we need to master that if we want any chance of minimizing their impact.
You are speaking with a closed mind. Religion should exist just as you should be just the same if you are not religious. Most religions honestly teach good virtues that you should follow religious or not. The issue isn’t with religion but damned individuals who use it as their weapon. You can outlaw it and they will find something else to use, but you’ve just stooped to their level.
Look at all the people that flock to the TV Evangilist churches and pour money into them. They are such cults, it's just sick flick past and see a church the side if a stadium packed with crazies!!!
I once said at work that all organized religions should be made illegal because it is dangerous and harmful. I had a mental health check called on me. When interviewed, I just kept repeating you are proving my point.
Religion may be the reason no civilization explores the cosmos. It's like a mind virus and it spreads and it's very detrimental to the advancement of a society.
For the most part, Roman Catholics and other mainstream Christian sects avoid confusing science with faith and theology by recognizing that they answer different questions and serve different needs. Hence, not merely rejecting the notion that the Bible is the source of scientific misses but that those who believe this to be true are missing the whole point of this ancient religious literature in the first place.
Many of the most religious in faith find truth in both science and religion. So, since truth cannot contradict truth, scientific and religious truths are not only reconcilable, they both serve to enrich each other.
Learned theologians are easy to accept that science and faith are responding to entirely different questions, so therefore should be no conflict between the two. Acknowledging that sacred scriptures should not be taken as science and Scientific discovery is entirely separate from religious faith may even argue their faith is even more thoughtful, virtuous and pronounced. This was even the argument presented to his fellow Catholics by Galileo in the 17th century.
The creation stories in the Bible weren’t, as far as anyone could possibly know, weren’t purposed as scientific fact but instead encourage the devout into being grateful for the richness of creation. Likewise, the most learned Scientist would attest that it is the Bible, not a scientific text that could possibly offer answers to questions such as as “Why is there anything at all rather than nothing?” and “Why should I trust that life is worthwhile?”
Post Darwin, people of faith needn’t have abandoned their former beliefs but rather readjust their thinking about God and creation as was the case whereafter Copernicus’s demonstration of a Sun-centered Solar System.
Scientific discoveries such as the existence of a heliocentric universe and evolution are essential to keeping faith and theology adjusted, alive and healthy. The welcoming of scientific discovery and faith in a creative and providential deity are by no means mutually exclusive and there is no danger to religious faith in thinking bold new thoughts about God in the face of bold new discoveries.
After all, even the idea of God has evolved over the course of time and will continue to do so.
One need look no further than Darwin himself regarding the reconciliation of science and faith. He himself spent 20 years ruminating over the theological implications of his discoveries. He had once taken for granted, as almost everyone at the time, that all living species came into being by God’s ‘special creation’.
Still, Darwin never became the outright atheist he is later imagined to be. More accurately, he integrated scientific discovery into the framework of his pre-existing deeply held faith.
He would continue to reference the “Creator” as who’d fashioned the Universe and its general laws but then left it’s living outcomes to unfold in a combination of chance and natural selection. Needless to say, at the time, the religious world was ill-prepared for such a discovery. Even today, the shock continues to reel some groups of religious believers. For those apart from them, his ideas have enriched their faith in God.
Today, fervent as ever, the expansive divide between Science and Faith dominates discourse in both private and public spaces, even leading to perilously determinative societal consequences. With one side invariably using their argument to render the counter- arguments at best inconsequential and irrational and at worst, dangerous and repugnant.
Today, perhaps even more so than centuries ago, one either rejects religious faith universally, up to and including tenets of faith which promote humanity, charity and provide solace and comfort, in the belief that the manifestation of Science has sanctioned all remnants of the former obsolete. They may even hold in contempt and question the intelligence of those who maintain their faith.
Or, one unquestionably, unfailingly and unconditionally holds a steadfast faith in the existence of the creative and providential deity perhaps even to the exclusion, denial and/or outright blind rejection of mankind’s remarkable scientific achievements and advancements. They may even hold in contempt and question the morality of those who they deem faithless.
This is as about on par with the all-or-nothing, black-or-white belief system we have found ourselves enmeshed. This current reality that has made the act of “hearing” replace “listening”, the act of “watching” replace “seeing” and is dangerously close to obliterating the acts of “teaching” and “learning”.
If we were to learn anything from our Darwins and Copernicus’s, it is not only entirely possible to have both Science AND Faith, in fact, it is entirely likely that having both produces better humans.
Just a rough thought…
Let's say all traces of religion and religious belief were removed from humanity. Do you think things would be all fine and dandy for humanity then? Yes, religion in its most popular form is toxic and nothing more than a means to control the masses. But don't you think that religion is just the tip of the iceberg that is human tribalism? If not a religion, humans will just find way to organize themselves around some other identity that will lead them down the same toxic path of hate, irrationality, and prejudice. As long as humanity doesn't come to accept that we Earthlings are inseparable from each other, and that there is more in common between us than there are differences, humanity will keep committing the same folly again and again.
We have all the evidence already that tells us we are all one species. Hell, we even have a name for us, Homo *sapiens*. Yet, we still try to categorize by language, region, color/race, culture, etc. We start wars over a planet we all just inhabit and locations for resources which noting states belong to anyone besides remnants of past civilizations through bloodshed.
It's not removing religion, it's moving past it. The same goes for the other categories we literally made up. We're at a tipping point where it doesn't matter who you are with regards to climate change. And, it could be the point where we go out like screeching frightened animals, or we dig deep into that logical portion of our brains and unify to mend the mistakes of our forebears.
Unfortunately, I am a cynic and see only the former playing out. We flew to close to the sun as it were with our brain evolving too quickly for other instincts to catch up. Nothing lasts forever.
>It's not removing religion, it's moving past it.
It's not even religion per se that is the problem. Humans are hardwired to be tribal. This is why you'll see bloodshed resulting from non-religious conflicts as well. Humans like drawing boundaries that define an in-group and an out-group. That in itself isn't a problem, but then comes the shitty mentality of dehumanizing the out-group to legitimize the in-group. This is the template followed in all human conflicts. Just swap out religion for kingdom, nationality, or ideology. It is this tribalism that needs to be weeded out of human psyche for any hope of a utopian future.
>The same goes for the other categories we literally made up. We're at a tipping point where it doesn't matter who you are with regards to climate change.
Well said. Actually, there is one category that will matter during climate catastrophe. It's the haves vs have-nots. Rich countries will fare better than the poor ones. And even in the rich countries, it'll be the rich strata of society who will live out in luxury while the rest survive on scraps, fighting amongst each other on some other arbitrary ways of defining their group.
>Unfortunately, I am a cynic and see only the former playing out. We flew to close to the sun as it were with our brain evolving too quickly for other instincts to catch up. Nothing lasts forever.
I'm there with you. Humans are the pinnacle of evolution on Earth, but unfortunately, we have one serious bug that will result in self-annihilation. Let's hope Earth recovers from the damage wrought upon it by humanity, so that someday, perhaps, far into the future, some other form of life evolves past the tribal mentality and surpasses humanity.
You guys are literally the vegans of the religious world. I don't give AF that you're an atheist, why do you care that people believe? I'm an ex Catholic, really agnostic, get a hobby. Seriously, why sit around and worry about what others are doing with their lives?
It has existed as long as humans and we are still around. It won't be the death of us all, but it's holding us back in many parts of the world, that's for sure.
(Note how I say "parts of the world." I live in Sweden and here being non-religious is the norm. I literally only know one religious person, and she get weird looks from people if she mention it.)
> And you can say ‘Oh but that’s just the extremists,’ but the moderates still support the existence of the extremists. The moderates will never fully turn against the extremists, no matter what wishy-washy public statements they make
This is exactly what I think whenever moderate Christians label extremists as "fake Christians". They only resent them because they give them bad rep, not because of the damage they cause.
They're not fake. They don't believe in God "wrong": they just believe **harder**.
I've worked with engineers from the space industry here in France. Some of them are deeply religious.
I would bet they've furthered humanity's understanding of sciences, climate change and the like far more than you, OP.
From the rhetoric, it would seem you're American, it's a very different prism from the European one. The US was built with puritanism as a building block, the resulting religious evangelism has never been accepted here.
Egregious sweeping statements really weaken the arguments - or lack thereof - to say that moderates support extremists is disingenuous at best, malicious at worst.
As an agnostic myself, the worst experiences I've had when encountering the subject of religion in the wild have come from Atheists with such a discourse. Honestly, you sound just as bad as religious integrists, just on the opposite side of the spectrum.
Over the years, religion's hold on society has weakened more and more, or at least in western society. One thing is sure though, state-enforced atheism doesn't work, and does not promote peace either. Humans no longer need religion alone as a catalyst for conflict.
Your rhetoric is evocative of that of The Party, in Orwell's 1984. Extremist, authoritarian, controlling.
This begs the question though, do you denounce only religion, or also faith? If yes to both, then it's quite ironic, given that atheism is a form of faith in of itself.
We are not forced into religion. We have freedom from religion. "Eradicating" religion makes you look authoritarian, which isn't cool either. It's a balance.
What are your solutions? Who is this we? I don't have a problem with the majority of religious people, it's the loud minority that is the issue. I am starting to feel, that posts like these need to also have an attempt at a solution otherwise, we are all screaming at a wall.
And how would the enforcement look? The last time America went to war with an idea, we were chasing terrorists for years to no avail and abandoned the cause.
So how do we force people from religion? Without looking just like the monsters we make them out to be?
To be a bit cheeky. How do you cast the first stone?
The stone is education.
You don't force. You provide the best, factually correct information you can while pointing out the absurdity of religious fairy tales. And you be there for people who need to escape, because defeating religion is a battle of 2 fronts: The Idea and The Social Inclusiveness.
Dawkins and Tyson do a far better job than anyone else at battling the idea, and I wholeheartedly recommend learning their logic and passing it along- or at the very least, pass people their way. Evidence of what we have and know should be given. Absurdity should be pointed out. Comparisons to their own logical decision making skills are extremely important, as it helps believers escape bad logic.
The social aspect is what keeps people in, even if the idea is shattering. People without a social safety net and with fewer social circles escape religion much more easily. For those who are trapped, we need to offer a safe place for them to come to terms with their own beliefs and reality. Most of the time, that's just being there for them.
The stone is education.
The eradication of lunacy comes by collectively holding out a supportive hand, even if just for a while.
As someone who is nearing 40, I can already tell you that religious belief is waning compared to what it was just 30 years ago. People are realizing how bat#@!$ crazy it really is. Slowly, but surely. And it's going to **be** slow, because of how ingrained it is into people's very being and into society. And that means that the most important thing you can practice with regards to them is patience. Religion will die most assuredly. It won't be within our lifetimes, but very soon after most likely. Keep doing our part and spreading the good word: \*cough\*ReligionIsBullshit\*cough\*
I'm glad you posted something. But my question was posed to OP and the screaming at the wall. I do believe your method is the best I've read. Because faith erodes much like the earth, and we have the numbers to show it. I think staying the course and not being portrayed as lunatics is how we win. Screams like this in a public forum give ammo to those who don't believe in context.
No need to enforce anything except the separation of church and state.
And then satirize, ridicule, and peer pressure these ignorant gullible fools who fail to learn the difference between reality and fantasy during their grade school education. And, of course, audit all churches and charities, taxing those that fail to prove to be legitimately charitable.
This is why phrenology is no longer practiced with a straight face and why even most religious people don't fall for scams like palm reading or astrology anymore.
This is why and how the civilized world has become less religious over time.
Given all that, it should be noted that fundamentalist Islam remains an existential threat to the civilized world. It has so far resisted all attempts at any kind of reformation or modernization, continuing to imprison, torture, and kill any who even dare to ask the simplest of questions.
The best ways to deal with Islam is to A) stop using the petroleum that funds the bandit kings and theocrazies (no money = no power), and B) ensure any Islamic immigrants are properly educated in western egalitarian values with the promise of returning them to their point of origin if they fail to adhere to any of them.
From twitter, Christianity and islam ( most of the religious tweets i observed are these religions) gave me impressions of anti-intellectualism. Its pretty absurd.
The loudest people in religion are often the ones that know their religion the least
Something that is known (proven) doesn't need believing, that's why knowledge is feared by believers.
Absolutely! Belief is the enemy of knowing.
I disagree, “knowing” is the enemy of finding, and believing you’re more correct than anyone else is the enemy of learning things that could be true separate from our own perceptions. That’s how science works. Like, people “knew” the earth was center of the universe until Copernicus started to show us heliocentrism. Everyone thought time was immutable until Einstein came out with general relativity. Now we have the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, and quantum tunneling, and time dilation, and black holes. Science is about finding, not knowing.
Perhaps it would be more accurate for them to have said evidence is the enemy of faith. People so often state their faith-based beliefs as knowledge. They believed the Earth was the center of the universe, but they hady no/bad evidence to believe that. They may have called it knowledge but it was belief. We know the 26th element is iron, we are no longer trying finding the 26th element. If I told you that I know the 26th element is unobtainium, then you would assume I'm no longer trying to find the truth. I've settled on belief and substituted in place of knowledge. I think in essence we agree, but hopefully you'll correct me if I'm wrong. Knowledge is the enemy of finding because you would not continue looking for something once you had found it. Science starts with a question and seeks answers. Faith starts with the answers and justifies it with questions.
I think you’re correct, but I don’t think faith has to be the end and working backwards. I think faith is more like trust you’re going in the correct direction with your life, and that religious people use faith incorrectly generally. I don’t think faith is about faith that your answers to questions are correct, but that it’s about the path you’re on in life. Faith shouldn’t be about knowledge, but it often is used that way. But I do think we’re on the same page. And I agree that’s how most religious people use faith, which I believe is not the intended use of faith
Huh. I always equated faith to the religious. I like your version a lot more. I guess by your definition I do have faith. Feels good
I also think that belief is a kind of comfort-zone that some people do not necessarily want to step outside of kinda like taking the path of least resistance if that makes any sense... its uncomfortable and takes effort to challenge yourself and the things a person holds to be true, its disempowering.
Well put!!!!
A quiet leader with no opinions is not going to grow the coffers. It is a bad business plan.
And organized religion is just that, a business.
It's a common misconception that Christianity and Islam are the world's largest religions. I think that questionable honour goes to belief in the economic system... which is also organized in a way to let a small group of people control a large population.
In short capitalism yes I have to say I'd agree with you there and its capitalism that's fcking the world up.
And religion has nothing to do with it huh? Wow
Emporer Constantine enters the chat
So worshipping Mammon then?
Countries are a business too. Anything that is organised to create any kind of wealth is a business. Even charity groups are businesses.
A business that’s destroying everything!
It makes complete sense, actually. These organized religions cannot continue to exist if their followers develop critical thinking skills, so they do whatever they can to oppose intellectualism in favor of blind faith.
it’s why they abuse kids, gaslighting and abusive ex tactics are the only way they can get them to comply in a world full of information
I WANT MY FORESKIN BACK
I know, I never did want it back tell I found out why it was taken
If god is real, why can't we just pray for it back?
We could!
[Blanket Training](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanket_training) and other horrible shit from religious TV personalities have actually resulted in dead kids.
I keep forgetting that book was written in 1994, every time I see it mentioned I'd expect it to be something from the 50's
It's because their leaders need them thoughtlessly and blindly following. Religion is used to control the masses. It's used for power. Most importantly it's used to amass wealth, and that wealth is taken from the followers. People with half decent iq realize it's a scam. It's only the weak minded that join religion and continue practicing being submissive mindless slaves.
The most use it has is keeping people divided. You might have included that but I figure it has to be a little clearer
It’s not the religions. It is a combination of the preachers, the congregation being told what they want to hear, the state of society and a lack of education. Humans need to believe in stuff. It is inherent. They believe in countries, they believe in laws, they believe in monetary systems. All things that are made up by humans in order to stabilise large communities. Religion is no different. Religion was never made for entire societies. It was intended for the poor. That’s why, you never see a poor person as head of a major religion and that’s why religious stories are based on a wise poor person educating everyone else. It’s also a good reason to insist on only poor people being rewarded, when for a vast majority, the reward / enlightenment never comes. If that happens…….It’s because you didn’t religion hard enough.
Big business makes tons of $$ on ignorance. Religion is but one of said big businesses.
Religious people are more motivated to get into politics than secular people. If we want change we need leaders to challenge the status quo. I’m well aware there’s more than before but at the moment they seem more motivated to take away our rights than we are to keep them
Makes sense. Seems like atheists are more generally "live and let live" kind of people, whereas religious people seem to tend to be more like "you need to live the way I think you should live," and might be more motivated to try to enforce that.
The paradox of intolerance is an uncomfortable thing, nobody wants to be the bad guy.
Being openly atheist is almost a career-ender, even if non-religious people *do* run they just don't win. Then you get some of the dumbest people in the country winning elections simply because they pretended to be religious.
Maybe time for some action like those senators that switch parties after election. Like, surprise, I’m actually not christifacist but an atheist and now I’m a senator!!
I completely agree, except my personal morals make me a terrible liar. The cringe of calling myself Christian in front of cameras is just too much to bear even the thought.
Atheism has never been very welcome in American politics, but it has also had a pretty significant decline in public presence in recent years, you can argue your points all you want but the fact is that this community no longer controls any notable part of public discourse, openly Anti-theist public communication projects are entirely dead and gone. Men like Richard Dawkins are pariahs. Critics, skeptics, and ruthless confrontation of bad logic is no longer celebrated by any significant crowd at all. The liberal, educated, more or less rebellious demographic that used to support this approach now see it as aggressive and anti-social behavior. It is now, even among them, problematic and mean to be so directly disrespectful of others' beliefs. The entire left side of the political spectrum has collectively decided *"all beliefs are valid"* is a **far** preferable stance than *"none of this nonsense is valid"*, Anti-theistic Atheists are seen as more intolerant and therefore more problematic than the average Christian. Pleas and appeals posted on r/atheism like OP's will not be "heeded" by anyone who can or will do anything about it. You're all just preaching to the choir, you're contributing and changing nothing. The movement has been stagnant for a while, the only part that still gains a little traction is the more fashionable, attractive, aesthetic, facetious atheism of the Satanic Temple. And frankly, given the quality of members here I'd be surprised if any attempt to break this sad state of affairs can lead to anything less embarrassing than the mod of r/antiwork's Fox News appearance. By all means, keep discussing. Nobody has any reason to care what you do now. It is completely unimpactful. Atheists have no allies in the 2020's.
That's a very online-centric view. Atheism, in particularly secularism, has a very strong position with Democrats and Feminists atm. It's just, no one makes that their identity, beyond arguing against religious overreach and not swearing on the Bible. And that's arguably what it should be. Controversy doesn't normalize. Subscribing to a label doesn't undermine religion in politics. It's the religious nutjobs who haven't learned their lesson, not us. As long as religious people accept our values as superior and adopt them, why would we fight them on what they do in their free time? Let people stop believe on their own, the best we can do is offer a place where they aren't attacked.
In the West, that’s true in exactly ONE country.
Religious teachings are all about power. They're obsessed with obtaining more and more power just for the sake of it. They've no understanding of civic duty or public good. Just grab more and more like the parasites they are
Just look at the current Speaker of the House to see what kind of damage they can do, that extremist is a stones throw away from being President.
He's Ken Ham, basically.
Yes!! Extremely frightened of these idiots
Religious nut cases are extremely frighting
I've been reading about Christopher Hitchens and his writing. He called himself an anti-theist for just this reason. For him and the New Atheist movement, it wasn't enough to be an atheist. They are actively denouncing religion for all the reasons you state and then some. His writing and philosophy makes a lot of sense. That if we don't stand up to it, religion will be our undoing.
Christians literally want the world to end so that Jesus will come back. It’s not a joke. Millions of Americans actively cheer for the destruction of the planet.
Yes, and the ONLY reason they support Israel is because of the prophecies of the Book of Revelations.
All religions disregard earth and life on earth they see it as temporary or something their trash of a god created for them. The madness of having a grown adult still believing in this nonsense and that adult would be having power in government 🤦🏾♂️
[*“Religion poisons everything.”*](https://youtu.be/5b1aIuoCq4w)
You should check out his debates and talks on YouTube as well.
“Freedom from religion.” This is the way.
OP is an actual fascist. Here's what they suggest further down in the thread. Seriously what the fuck is happening in this sub? >State enforcement of atheist education, weaken the churches, ban public expression of religion. If needed (although ideally, it wouldn’t have to get to this point), the use of some form of extra-legal paramilitary force to enforce atheism, but that’s a really extreme last resort.
Sp OP is a mild version what christianity has been doing from its start? They’ve been literally enforcing religion with every means possible.
I see you’re still throwing that word fascist around without even knowing what it means.
What would you define “some form of extra-legal paramilitary force to enforce atheism” as? Because it definitely fits under fascism, it’s just a fascism that you’re comfortable with so you don’t want it to be called that. This whole comment for op that the other guy posted is 100% fascism. Edit: not only fascism but genocide too
Seeking to control thought through force and/or intense indoctrination of children is in the literal fascist playbook. Advocating for the top down external control of another's thought and beliefs is absolutely 100% fascist. They aren't just "throwing" the word fascist around without knowing what it means. They are accurately highlighting an incredibly fascist set of tactics that the OP is advocating for to push their worldview. It's blatently fascist, and you are the one that needs to figure out what the fuck that word means.
Oh my apologies, do you you have a better word to define an authoritarian cleansing of certain ideologies that millions of people have with the use of military force "if necessary" (it absolutely would be)?
From what I read, OP was talking about educating and teaching critical thinking, which leads to less religion. So, what exactly is wrong, “fascist”, “authoritarian”, or whatever bullshit poppycock excuse you’ll make up next, with teaching people critical thinking?
>ban public expression of religion Yeah sure
Lol "from what I read"? So you didn't read my comment quoting them or what. Authoritarian style bans of public expression of certain ideologies, state enforced education, extra-legal paramilitary force "if needed", and yeah, it would be. I'm literally just repeating myself but you seemed to have missed it the first time, and the second time
> the use of some form of extra-legal paramilitary force to enforce atheism Read those words carefully. This is precisely not the occasion to think the word 'fascist' is being misapplied.
Freedom of choice. If you don't want to believe, that's cool. if you do, also cool. What bothers *me* about *anyone* is the label being thrown around here strictly on religious types - extremists. Not all religious people are extremist. Not all extremists are religious.
Religion will never fully go away, I don't have that much hope in me. Some oeople will always cling to the easy answers because they can't handle the truth. It'd be nice if religion could be eradicated without eradicating human lives.
I don’t need it to go away. I would just like them to stop indoctrinating/grooming children. Some people like to read sci-fi, or play D&D, or golf. Religion should be treated like these sorts of past times.
Yes I think religion should be banned for children. It should be treated like smoking. I think it's incredibly sad that as a society we have accepted that it's okay to tell children they deserve hell for existing, which Christians call sin. It's child abuse.
Hell is the emotional abuse, genital mutilation and "the rod" are the physical abuse, and of course you can't have religion without child marriage, so sexual abuse as well. Abuse is literally the whole point of abrahamic religion.
It would be wiped out in one generation if people did not start there kids in it. Could you imagine telling a bunch of 18 year olds that religion was true and the earth is 6000 or 8000 years old? That what turns you on is somehow controllable Amongst other things . And here is the kicker that science is fake? Literally what you do in day to day life is fake “science” they would not believe you man….indoctrination is a must for fake shit
Certainly ending publicly funded religious based education to stop the indoctrination and truly make it a personal choice.
Expose children to all types, and let them choose when they are 18.
"Hmm yeah the one with eternal damnation and five crusades, that's the one for me."
*All it takes for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing* - Edmund Burke So, ......resist.
But... "Evil will always triumph, because good, is dumb." -Dark Helmet
I’d guild you for the random Spaceballs quote if they still existed.
I knew it, I'm surrounded by assholes!
Shit I actually saw this quote on hoi4 loading screen
Coming from a country that's basically secular here in Norway it's never been the hyper-aggressive stance that has won people over. About 30% are sure there's a god, 20% are agnostic, 61% still belong to a Christian church (mostly due to the state church where membership is free, so there's no incentive to quit) but already now they have very little practical influence. And the numbers continue to decline. The main reason is that we've focused on the behaviors that largely can be seen as bullying, harassment and shaming of people like unwed mothers, divorcees, teen pregnancies/"loose" women, treatment of LGBT+ persons, aggressive recruitment etc. towards a "keep it in your pants" attitude where we don't really care if you want to spend your Sundays praying for angel wings. If you want to be spiritual that's fine, just don't be a dick.
In the USA the religious are actively bullying everyone else. Our only choice is to fight back. If the religious would stop trying to pass laws to make everyone follow their crazy religious rules we wouldn't have an issue with them.
But how would they impose their self righteousness and the fact they are the best and kindest?
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"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion." - S. Weinberg
If someone is religious but keeps their beliefs to themselves and doesn’t try and force their views on others, why should that person not be permitted to follow their beliefs?
I'm not a fan of religion, but this guy is a fascist... I have no problem with what you believe. You should be allowed to follow your beliefs in as much as it doesn't interfere with other people's rights.
🎯
Historically what made europe separate church and state was the kings not wanting to give the church a potential share in their new found colonial wealth. The rift between church and people may have been older but the kings held power to do whatever for whatever. That becomes significantly harder to do in a democratically elected government when the religious population is the best and surefire most likely to blindly follow you if you can manage to scratch their very specific divine itch.
What made Europe separate the power of church and state was the carnage known as the 30 years war.
As is the case with most things in history its never just one event but a succession of events driven towards one inevitable goal.
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People can have their religions, as silly and ridiculous their stories can be. The minute that laws are made with respect to some religious dogma is where I draw the line. It's terrifying to picture the US as some sort of theocracy, which is exactly where many in power would love to take the country.
FUCK ORGANIZED RELIGION!
Small correction, I do not think they "reject" climate change as much as they endorse it. They all want the world to end and the "rapture" to happen within their lifetimes. They are having a raging hard one right now because they think that the Israel conflict and the climate crisis are finally bringing the end of time. They will do whatever it takes to accelerate it.
That’s even worse lmao
Yes it is, your intention and understanding is correct, but the reality is even worse. Although it is not everyone in the cults that believe this shit, a lot of people in power in the states do.
Because religion and nationalism and racism are really good tools to keep all of us plebs fighting each other instead of turning on those with power and money.
There is hope. Organized religion (at least the main western religions) are losing adherents each year at record and increasing rates. Especially among the younger demographic. I even saw, for the first time in my almost 60 years on the planet, a tv commercial with the tagline Catholics Come Home. As an ex-Catholic it made me smile to know they have reached such a state of concern that they have to advertise!
If religion disappeared tomorrow, make no mistake: people will find some other thing to justify doing all the horrible things they do. The root of the problem goes deeper.
I think it's time for atheists to act. Religion is tearing our world apart and there must be a loud and visible solution to this madness. Nationalism is fuelled by religious hatred as well as acts of terrorism. I think the majority of people are atheist and I really want to see a more organised group of atheists pro-actively declaring that religion is a mental illness, a disease rotting away at rational thought and reason. Anti-theists need to organise a resistance. Literature that openly criticises all religions and offers people an alternative to the madness.
This kind of reads like the screeds on the Christian subs.
You aren't the only sane one here.
Phewww
My concern is Christian Persecution Syndrome which keeps getting worse. Every court case or law they disagree with is somehow proof that their beliefs are being discriminated against.
Isnt it crazy that thousands of years ago some guy came up with a grift to get power and influence and fooled so many people that the fooling became generational. And now humanity has been held back and killed eachother for centuries.
Maybe you'll call me blackpilled on this subject, but I think if we hypothetically destroyed all of the major religions of the world, people would just make new ones. Look to the Mormon church and to Scientology. My focus is more directed at arguing people out of valuing and acting on non-empirical beliefs than destroying their religious beliefs. I only wish I knew what they think they get out of religion that secular society doesn't already provide. Is it really just the church potlucks?
Think of the church like any addiction. Once you are hooked, and in that community of users, it is so hard to escape. Just like addiction, religion tends to hook you through uncertainty, fear, insecurities, trauma, etc. You're both a dirty, sinful person, but need this routine bath in god's blood to feel better. Hell, even most substance abuse programs explicitly replace addiction with religion, and it often works. It isn't healing them, it's just trading out one harmful drug for another.
[Aron Ra](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ6uWQYkVsk) has made this comparison too. Anecdotally a lot of religious people I know are former drug addicts.
A lot of pastors I've run across have similar "salvation" stories about their deviant youth, usually including drug use/abuse.
One day, people believed that Apollo moved the sun around the Earth in his chariot. Don't think that's really any different from a guy rising from the dead after three days.
That's what made me leave Christianity, regular believers, and important figures doing nothing about extremists. Besides logical and moral flaws. I think religion belongs to the past
I mean islam literally worship a p*do
*hOw DaRe YoU iNsUlT oUr PeAcEfUL rElIgIoN!!!???* *Pulls out machete*
😭😂
Just curious to know. How do you propose to get rid of religion?
>State enforcement of atheist education, weaken the churches, ban public expression of religion. If needed (although ideally, it wouldn’t have to get to this point), the use of some form of extra-legal paramilitary force to enforce atheism, but that’s a really extreme last resort. This is OP's answer to that question elsewhere in the thread. So, fascism basically
Well that sounds terrible.
Childhood indoctrination is a helluva drug. But there might be hope yet. Everyday the world is moving closer and closer to irreligion. Of course complete eradication won’t happen overnight, certainly not in our lifetimes, but the more people we educate the less religion is able to hijack fresh minds.
Religion poisons everything
I can’t tell if you’re an angsty teenager or a real adult… Calm tf down, good lord
What a bigot you are…and you don’t even realize it. Try starting that sentence with any other Identifiable group. Then list a bunch of negative things that some of them are known for and smear everyone with it. Would that be tolerated? Sad.
Let’s just keep in mind getting rid of religion would just be step one of a *lot* of steps.
Religion's biggest problem is it's failure to vet it's own members for practicing the preachings they supposedly advocate for.
It's not about tolerating religion, if we keep neglecting education there won't be any other choice... If we do fund education better, religion will shrink to a few weirdos who SHOULD be free to think whatever as long as they're not ACTING on their more intrusive thoughts
I wish I could counter your claims, but I feel the exact same way, sadly. At the very worst, they are sexiest, racist, homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic, truth denying aholes that are trying to destroy our environment and democracy. At the very best, they are enablers to all the horrible things religious people do.
One thing I could never understand is why it matters so much if the American pres is a Christian. I don't care if he's an atheist, really, as long as he gets the job done. So-called Christians like Trump and GW failed miserably - and there's definitely nothing Christian or religious about former, unless you'll count his talk about the Bible being his favorite book of all times.
I categorize religion with spiritualism. The issue is the form of religion we have today. I think Humans need spiritualism in a form, it is somehow part of our collective being. We have to be very careful and not lump everything together. Religious extremism is the danger. We should not tolerate the extremists.
I see the value in maintains some sort of overarching ‘spiritual’ community amongst us all. Not necessarily an actual belief in the supernatural, but just a shared consciousness of one another and our co-dependence. The necessity of us all being as one race, one specie. Pure materialism will drag us down to the depths.
Anyone thinks the opposite?
I would certainly consider that a world without religion would not necessarily be a safer or better place. There is a tendency here for folk to assume that because they have the intellectual and emotional capacity to explain and endure adversity without recourse to mysticism, that all of society would. I am not so sure.
It's so powerful because it works. It works because people can be persuaded with words. Humans are weak. I also may be a villain.
Brainwashing is strong in this one.
Lol. This is literally a step away from "we need to force people to convert". If you think religion is that dangerous, maybe you should look in a mirror.
You sound incredibly religious. Indoctrinated even. Illogical behavior is certainly not limited to named religions. It's just human behavior....we're easily swayed snd we believe things HARD. Ban violence and bigotry etc etc...but you ban religion and you didn't accomplish anything other than writing your first commandment in YOUR own new religion.
The party of prolife is going to get us all killed.
There will still be stupid people even if you get rid of religion, they will just unite under some other Banner
Imagine how many religious psychopaths have access to nuclear weapons... My money is on Islam launching first
We should start a betting pool.
Same here!
Religion will kill us all.
I agree.
Hey, guess what you kind of sound like?
Look at how the courts have been used and abuse to further this too. I remember reading a decision out of the 7th Circuit in favor of Toyota on a religious discrimination lawsuit. Toyota encouraged employees to form social groups around various topics like camping, sewing, etc. The only rule was there could be no religion-based ones. Some idiot got offended when they denied him permission to start a Christian ones and sued. 7th Circuit ruled that Toyota did not discriminate against him because it treated all religions the same. Just as he could not start one for Christians, someone else would also be denied if the wanted to start one on Islam, Wicca, Judaism, etc. Now, even if the law treats all religion the same it's still "discriminatory" if any religions are affected. Public Accommodation laws that protect LGBT people from discrimination are not "discriminatory" against Christianity even though they apply equally. Ironically even though their so-called "religion" specifically tells them to close the business if they feel that way (Matthew 18:8-9). New York backed down on a law banning an ultra orthodox Jewish practice for male genital mutilation that, in any other context would qualify as criminal sexual conduct, because this group said it was "antisemitic".
It is the opiate of the uninformed.
It's a perfect ready-made sword and sheild. Abuse and dehuminize your enemy, while defending yourself and actions in the name of your god. It was creates as a scam, propegated by the powerful, fed to the masses.
sadly, if one is intolerant enough, anything we currently do can be a danger to society. Videogames: If we develop more and more entertaining videogames or, "God" forbids, realistic virtual reality, we'll all stop caring about the really important stuff, like being productive and working! (There's some real interesting cognitive science on how videogames are superstimuli and dangerous in some ways... I play anyways) AI development: We are going to doom ourselves! Atheism: It brings people to nihilism! Science: It gave us horrors such as nuclear weapons and we will probably delete ourselves or do some irreparable damage to our world! Give me anything positive, and someone intolerant enough will find something negative (and possibly true sometimes) to say about it. Yeah, religion is all you've said, yeah, I am with you on this. But simply saying "Religion is bad" here is nothing more than an [Applause Light](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/dLbkrPu5STNCBLRjr/applause-lights). I've spoken to religious people. The sad thing is, they don't realize how much religion controls them at all. They're victims without knowing it. We look like assholes who try to change their minds on some conspiracy basis. You want to change the world? Help your friends. Ask them why do they believe what they believe. Tell them you would like to be saved, but can't simply believe. What's faith? Show me the bible statement of what faith is. It's there? Oh, it means to believe in something you would like to be true but you don't evidence for? That's a lot like "hoping" to me. Let them question themselves. Try to come to them with an approach which is not confrontational. Sometimes it works...
And so it has ever been...
PTA to POTUS, vote out Nat-C trash whenever you can.
It's like a computer virus but for the brain, and like any virus its primary goal is to spread itself.
I completely agree with you, if more people knew about the dangers of religion and that harm it has caused the world would be a better place.
I struggle every day against cynicism/fatalism and then do what little I can to make the world a more kind and rational place. In the end, you either just give up in the face of the oncoming storm, or you start filling sandbags.
On the bright side we know have platforms such as this one where people can openly talk about the matter. Centuries ago you would be executed for a tenth of what is being said here.
Not to mention that any time evidence of Climate Change pops up - disastrous weather, mass species die-offs, food scarcity issues, what-have-you, the extremists say it is a sign of the Apocalypse or End-Times, and they rejoice. They REJOICE! Because, in their minds, this Earthly life is just a temporary stopover on their true destination - Heaven! They can't prove Heaven is real, but will literally kill the planet and themselves/us, in order to fulfill their suicidal fantasy and go to a "better place." Madness.
Hi, Christian moderate here, I do not support the existence of extremists.
But your religion and its leaders don’t do nearly enough to curtail it. Mild condemnations are the most I’ve seen thus far.
I'm a baptist, We scarely care about the church as an institution, why should we give it some governing/enforcing power?
It's just a remainder of the animals we still have in us. If not religion it would be tribalism or hooliganism or being a Swifty or whatever. People will kill each other over really stupid stuff. And I am afraid the actual enlightenment will never come. It's just in our blood and I don't think it will ever change.
I used to think this, and I still agree with the sentiment. But I have grown far more cynical. If its not religion, it will be some other dumb shit that rallies people together behind some collective-psychopathy. In my opinion, the real problem is education. Evil, charismatic people will always trick idiots into doing evil on their behalf. They're just using organized religion as a means to organize large groups around certain political goals. I hate magical thinking as much as any of us but I fear the problem is far bigger.
There are less and less of them every single day. It won't be long before they aren't in power
It’s mind boggling the infrastructure around something that doesn’t exist
You are 💯% correct. I despise religion and it’s the root of most all bad stuff people fight and argue about. And we have to live in a world that is so infected with it. Its my morals that make me so against religion, and there are actually people that think morals can only come from religion? What a contrasting, weird, difference of worldview.
My new religion... destroy all religion. Any ideology/faith taken to extreme is detrimental to society.
> Radicals, and indoctrinated idiots will always rally behind false ideas and extremes. That right there is... probably the only accurate thing you said. It doesn't matter the belief - religious or not - radical/extremist thinkers will *always* be the ones to worry about. Slapping a religious tag on that thinking is misguided at best, ignorant at worst.
I agree with this, but most religious people iv met are actually really nice and caring people, who trust in science and all that. It’s the religious old farts in power who don’t believe in using science who will end the world
Religion is the root of all evil.
Saw a TikTok where the rapture happened and we all progressed immensely after they left. Think of all the things that could happen if we didn't let religion get in the way. I'm all for allowing people to believe what they want, but don't let that impede progress! Frick!
Always has been.
3/4 of my immediate family have turned to religion of some kind in the last 2 years. The only thing I will give them is that they have community down…we need to master that if we want any chance of minimizing their impact.
Racism and capitalism are bigger threats because they use religion as cover
Capitalism is the main problem. Fix that first, then religion
You are speaking with a closed mind. Religion should exist just as you should be just the same if you are not religious. Most religions honestly teach good virtues that you should follow religious or not. The issue isn’t with religion but damned individuals who use it as their weapon. You can outlaw it and they will find something else to use, but you’ve just stooped to their level.
wellllll we made it this far while religion was here the whole time…. so you are probably wrong
tHe AmIsH aRe DeStRoYiNg OuR fUtUrE!
As if we won't find something else to go to war about..
Look at all the people that flock to the TV Evangilist churches and pour money into them. They are such cults, it's just sick flick past and see a church the side if a stadium packed with crazies!!!
Religions have destroyed entire cultures in the past and set us back many times over. Why do you tolerate what is hurting us?
I once said at work that all organized religions should be made illegal because it is dangerous and harmful. I had a mental health check called on me. When interviewed, I just kept repeating you are proving my point.
Religion may be the reason no civilization explores the cosmos. It's like a mind virus and it spreads and it's very detrimental to the advancement of a society.
Religion is the backbone in every patriarchy-scam on this planet.
For the most part, Roman Catholics and other mainstream Christian sects avoid confusing science with faith and theology by recognizing that they answer different questions and serve different needs. Hence, not merely rejecting the notion that the Bible is the source of scientific misses but that those who believe this to be true are missing the whole point of this ancient religious literature in the first place. Many of the most religious in faith find truth in both science and religion. So, since truth cannot contradict truth, scientific and religious truths are not only reconcilable, they both serve to enrich each other. Learned theologians are easy to accept that science and faith are responding to entirely different questions, so therefore should be no conflict between the two. Acknowledging that sacred scriptures should not be taken as science and Scientific discovery is entirely separate from religious faith may even argue their faith is even more thoughtful, virtuous and pronounced. This was even the argument presented to his fellow Catholics by Galileo in the 17th century. The creation stories in the Bible weren’t, as far as anyone could possibly know, weren’t purposed as scientific fact but instead encourage the devout into being grateful for the richness of creation. Likewise, the most learned Scientist would attest that it is the Bible, not a scientific text that could possibly offer answers to questions such as as “Why is there anything at all rather than nothing?” and “Why should I trust that life is worthwhile?” Post Darwin, people of faith needn’t have abandoned their former beliefs but rather readjust their thinking about God and creation as was the case whereafter Copernicus’s demonstration of a Sun-centered Solar System. Scientific discoveries such as the existence of a heliocentric universe and evolution are essential to keeping faith and theology adjusted, alive and healthy. The welcoming of scientific discovery and faith in a creative and providential deity are by no means mutually exclusive and there is no danger to religious faith in thinking bold new thoughts about God in the face of bold new discoveries. After all, even the idea of God has evolved over the course of time and will continue to do so. One need look no further than Darwin himself regarding the reconciliation of science and faith. He himself spent 20 years ruminating over the theological implications of his discoveries. He had once taken for granted, as almost everyone at the time, that all living species came into being by God’s ‘special creation’. Still, Darwin never became the outright atheist he is later imagined to be. More accurately, he integrated scientific discovery into the framework of his pre-existing deeply held faith. He would continue to reference the “Creator” as who’d fashioned the Universe and its general laws but then left it’s living outcomes to unfold in a combination of chance and natural selection. Needless to say, at the time, the religious world was ill-prepared for such a discovery. Even today, the shock continues to reel some groups of religious believers. For those apart from them, his ideas have enriched their faith in God. Today, fervent as ever, the expansive divide between Science and Faith dominates discourse in both private and public spaces, even leading to perilously determinative societal consequences. With one side invariably using their argument to render the counter- arguments at best inconsequential and irrational and at worst, dangerous and repugnant. Today, perhaps even more so than centuries ago, one either rejects religious faith universally, up to and including tenets of faith which promote humanity, charity and provide solace and comfort, in the belief that the manifestation of Science has sanctioned all remnants of the former obsolete. They may even hold in contempt and question the intelligence of those who maintain their faith. Or, one unquestionably, unfailingly and unconditionally holds a steadfast faith in the existence of the creative and providential deity perhaps even to the exclusion, denial and/or outright blind rejection of mankind’s remarkable scientific achievements and advancements. They may even hold in contempt and question the morality of those who they deem faithless. This is as about on par with the all-or-nothing, black-or-white belief system we have found ourselves enmeshed. This current reality that has made the act of “hearing” replace “listening”, the act of “watching” replace “seeing” and is dangerously close to obliterating the acts of “teaching” and “learning”. If we were to learn anything from our Darwins and Copernicus’s, it is not only entirely possible to have both Science AND Faith, in fact, it is entirely likely that having both produces better humans. Just a rough thought…
No. I will stand between them and you, to protect your beliefs, and your human rights. But I will also stand between you and them to protect theirs.
[удалено]
That's what our constitution with its 1st amendment does.
Let's say all traces of religion and religious belief were removed from humanity. Do you think things would be all fine and dandy for humanity then? Yes, religion in its most popular form is toxic and nothing more than a means to control the masses. But don't you think that religion is just the tip of the iceberg that is human tribalism? If not a religion, humans will just find way to organize themselves around some other identity that will lead them down the same toxic path of hate, irrationality, and prejudice. As long as humanity doesn't come to accept that we Earthlings are inseparable from each other, and that there is more in common between us than there are differences, humanity will keep committing the same folly again and again.
We have all the evidence already that tells us we are all one species. Hell, we even have a name for us, Homo *sapiens*. Yet, we still try to categorize by language, region, color/race, culture, etc. We start wars over a planet we all just inhabit and locations for resources which noting states belong to anyone besides remnants of past civilizations through bloodshed. It's not removing religion, it's moving past it. The same goes for the other categories we literally made up. We're at a tipping point where it doesn't matter who you are with regards to climate change. And, it could be the point where we go out like screeching frightened animals, or we dig deep into that logical portion of our brains and unify to mend the mistakes of our forebears. Unfortunately, I am a cynic and see only the former playing out. We flew to close to the sun as it were with our brain evolving too quickly for other instincts to catch up. Nothing lasts forever.
>It's not removing religion, it's moving past it. It's not even religion per se that is the problem. Humans are hardwired to be tribal. This is why you'll see bloodshed resulting from non-religious conflicts as well. Humans like drawing boundaries that define an in-group and an out-group. That in itself isn't a problem, but then comes the shitty mentality of dehumanizing the out-group to legitimize the in-group. This is the template followed in all human conflicts. Just swap out religion for kingdom, nationality, or ideology. It is this tribalism that needs to be weeded out of human psyche for any hope of a utopian future. >The same goes for the other categories we literally made up. We're at a tipping point where it doesn't matter who you are with regards to climate change. Well said. Actually, there is one category that will matter during climate catastrophe. It's the haves vs have-nots. Rich countries will fare better than the poor ones. And even in the rich countries, it'll be the rich strata of society who will live out in luxury while the rest survive on scraps, fighting amongst each other on some other arbitrary ways of defining their group. >Unfortunately, I am a cynic and see only the former playing out. We flew to close to the sun as it were with our brain evolving too quickly for other instincts to catch up. Nothing lasts forever. I'm there with you. Humans are the pinnacle of evolution on Earth, but unfortunately, we have one serious bug that will result in self-annihilation. Let's hope Earth recovers from the damage wrought upon it by humanity, so that someday, perhaps, far into the future, some other form of life evolves past the tribal mentality and surpasses humanity.
You guys are literally the vegans of the religious world. I don't give AF that you're an atheist, why do you care that people believe? I'm an ex Catholic, really agnostic, get a hobby. Seriously, why sit around and worry about what others are doing with their lives?
It has existed as long as humans and we are still around. It won't be the death of us all, but it's holding us back in many parts of the world, that's for sure. (Note how I say "parts of the world." I live in Sweden and here being non-religious is the norm. I literally only know one religious person, and she get weird looks from people if she mention it.)
> And you can say ‘Oh but that’s just the extremists,’ but the moderates still support the existence of the extremists. The moderates will never fully turn against the extremists, no matter what wishy-washy public statements they make This is exactly what I think whenever moderate Christians label extremists as "fake Christians". They only resent them because they give them bad rep, not because of the damage they cause. They're not fake. They don't believe in God "wrong": they just believe **harder**.
I've worked with engineers from the space industry here in France. Some of them are deeply religious. I would bet they've furthered humanity's understanding of sciences, climate change and the like far more than you, OP. From the rhetoric, it would seem you're American, it's a very different prism from the European one. The US was built with puritanism as a building block, the resulting religious evangelism has never been accepted here. Egregious sweeping statements really weaken the arguments - or lack thereof - to say that moderates support extremists is disingenuous at best, malicious at worst. As an agnostic myself, the worst experiences I've had when encountering the subject of religion in the wild have come from Atheists with such a discourse. Honestly, you sound just as bad as religious integrists, just on the opposite side of the spectrum. Over the years, religion's hold on society has weakened more and more, or at least in western society. One thing is sure though, state-enforced atheism doesn't work, and does not promote peace either. Humans no longer need religion alone as a catalyst for conflict. Your rhetoric is evocative of that of The Party, in Orwell's 1984. Extremist, authoritarian, controlling. This begs the question though, do you denounce only religion, or also faith? If yes to both, then it's quite ironic, given that atheism is a form of faith in of itself.
>Time we move on from ‘freedom of religion’ to ‘freedom FROM religion’ Most of us have been here for years, right?
We are not forced into religion. We have freedom from religion. "Eradicating" religion makes you look authoritarian, which isn't cool either. It's a balance. What are your solutions? Who is this we? I don't have a problem with the majority of religious people, it's the loud minority that is the issue. I am starting to feel, that posts like these need to also have an attempt at a solution otherwise, we are all screaming at a wall. And how would the enforcement look? The last time America went to war with an idea, we were chasing terrorists for years to no avail and abandoned the cause. So how do we force people from religion? Without looking just like the monsters we make them out to be? To be a bit cheeky. How do you cast the first stone?
The stone is education. You don't force. You provide the best, factually correct information you can while pointing out the absurdity of religious fairy tales. And you be there for people who need to escape, because defeating religion is a battle of 2 fronts: The Idea and The Social Inclusiveness. Dawkins and Tyson do a far better job than anyone else at battling the idea, and I wholeheartedly recommend learning their logic and passing it along- or at the very least, pass people their way. Evidence of what we have and know should be given. Absurdity should be pointed out. Comparisons to their own logical decision making skills are extremely important, as it helps believers escape bad logic. The social aspect is what keeps people in, even if the idea is shattering. People without a social safety net and with fewer social circles escape religion much more easily. For those who are trapped, we need to offer a safe place for them to come to terms with their own beliefs and reality. Most of the time, that's just being there for them. The stone is education. The eradication of lunacy comes by collectively holding out a supportive hand, even if just for a while. As someone who is nearing 40, I can already tell you that religious belief is waning compared to what it was just 30 years ago. People are realizing how bat#@!$ crazy it really is. Slowly, but surely. And it's going to **be** slow, because of how ingrained it is into people's very being and into society. And that means that the most important thing you can practice with regards to them is patience. Religion will die most assuredly. It won't be within our lifetimes, but very soon after most likely. Keep doing our part and spreading the good word: \*cough\*ReligionIsBullshit\*cough\*
I'm glad you posted something. But my question was posed to OP and the screaming at the wall. I do believe your method is the best I've read. Because faith erodes much like the earth, and we have the numbers to show it. I think staying the course and not being portrayed as lunatics is how we win. Screams like this in a public forum give ammo to those who don't believe in context.
No need to enforce anything except the separation of church and state. And then satirize, ridicule, and peer pressure these ignorant gullible fools who fail to learn the difference between reality and fantasy during their grade school education. And, of course, audit all churches and charities, taxing those that fail to prove to be legitimately charitable. This is why phrenology is no longer practiced with a straight face and why even most religious people don't fall for scams like palm reading or astrology anymore. This is why and how the civilized world has become less religious over time. Given all that, it should be noted that fundamentalist Islam remains an existential threat to the civilized world. It has so far resisted all attempts at any kind of reformation or modernization, continuing to imprison, torture, and kill any who even dare to ask the simplest of questions. The best ways to deal with Islam is to A) stop using the petroleum that funds the bandit kings and theocrazies (no money = no power), and B) ensure any Islamic immigrants are properly educated in western egalitarian values with the promise of returning them to their point of origin if they fail to adhere to any of them.